Talk:Vlad the Impaler
The Blessed Great-Martyr St. Vlad III ?!?!?!?!? WHAT???
This is stupid!!! i'm from Romania and this men is not seen like a 'Blessed Great-Martyr'. He is just a simple Voivode, not a hero. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maraamu (talk • contribs) .
- It should be a fairly simple matter to check a Romanian ecclesiastical source to see if he's listed among the saints. Any takers? —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 21:10, July 26, 2009 (UTC)
- I looked on the "When Is My Nameday" site, maintained by a Cypriot Orthodox priest I believe, a site I have found to be very comprehensive in past searches, and there was no mention of Vlad III.
- Secondly, I looked on the extensive Wikipedia article on Vlad III the Impaler, and there is no mention of him there either as a martyr or saint; on his death, it reads: "Vlad Dracula was killed in battle against the Turks near the capital city of Bucharest on December 14, 1476. He was decapitated by the Turks and his head sent to Istanbul where the Sultan had it displayed on a stake as proof that the Impaler was finally dead."
- So that if there is any truth to the claim made in this article it is very obscure; it would definitwely require a Romanian ecclesiastical source to verify, as Fr. Andrew has suggested. Although I have my doubts. Cheers, Angellight 888 17:43, July 27, 2009 (UTC)
- I concur! In addition to the Wikipedia article there are a number of other history type articles on the web that only speak of "Vlad" in a secular manner. Nothing significantly religious, let alone Orthodox. Frankly, I look at this article as a cleaver vandalism. Unless someone knowledgeable out of the blue, I recommend deleting the article. Wsk 23:49, July 27, 2009 (UTC)
- By all means, check with the Romanians. I've seen icons of him, but this could easily be a fringe thing (like the similar ones of St. Nikolai Rasputin). Although it brings up an interesting problem: in case of disagreement between two Orthodox groups, one of them perhaps much smaller than the other, what is the policy?
- Whoops. Right, I mean Grigory. Well, YOU feel sure that he was "certainly" not a saint, but other Orthodox people claim that he is. http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/10/01/rasputin-to-become-a-saint/ Who's to decide?Zla'od 03:29, July 29, 2009 (UTC)
- If he was Orthodox, and if he died in battle against the Turks, then "Great-Martyr" would be appropriate, no? But I admit that all this is far from my area of knowledge.Zla'od 01:47, July 28, 2009 (UTC)
- Hello. Here is a list of romanian saints, but in romanian. Here is another list of romanian saints, in romanian language. You can check by name, it is not difficul. Here is a list of saints from a ROCOR church. You will not find him, because he is not a saint. This article is a vandalism. Maraamu 06:59, July 28, 2009 (UTC)
- Are you sure that this list is exhaustive? As far as I know, saints do not need to be formally canonized, as in the Catholic church, but are often recognized as the result of grass-roots support. Whether Dracula is an example of this, I do not know, but assuming that at least some Romanians support him as such, while others oppose, what is this site to do?Zla'od 03:29, July 29, 2009 (UTC)
- A person who happens to be Orthodox, killed in battle by a person who happens to be non-Orthodox, is not automatically a Great-Martyr (or, afaik, any other kind of martyr). He wasn't killed for his religion, and certainly not tortured. An example of a Great-Martyr would be St George, who was a soldier, yes; but he was tortured and killed for being a Christian by his own government. — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 12:33, July 28, 2009 (UTC)
- Well, he was "killed for his religion" in the sense that he died while fighting a war to protect it. But I was unsure of the terminology myself, and defer to your expertise on the matter.
- What about all those churches and monasteries he founded? Could we call him a patron of Orthodoxy, along the lines of Constantine? Zla'od 03:29, July 29, 2009 (UTC)
- In case of disagreement between Orthodox groups, we run with what the local Holy Synod has/has not said. If there is notable disagreement (which isn't the case here), we document that. We're an encyclopaedia, not a news source.
- Who's to decide? Holy Synods. Certainly not OrthodoxWiki. If a person hasn't been glorified as a saint, then they are not listed among the saints - that seems almost tautological.
- He wasn't killed for his religion in particular. Religion tends to be secondary in war, and at this point I've no reason to believe that this one was any different to, say, all the wars between the Byzantine Empire (Orthodox) and their various opponents (usually not Orthodox). No one's suggesting Paleologus should be glorified, either.
- We aren't calling him anything new. Constantine was glorified by the Church. Other rulers were, e.g. Tsar Nicholas II (due largely to his murder). This one was, and is, not. That's really as far as OW goes. If there are fringe groups saying that he is a saint, then these can be documented, but he is not considered to be a saint by the Church Militant at this time. — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 06:22, July 29, 2009 (UTC)