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Talk:Western Rite and Old Calendarists

5,417 bytes added, 04:42, August 4, 2008
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:I haven't had to say this before, but my personal philosophy is that 10 reverts inside an hour is, well, unsane. I'm not worried about seeming like I'm taking sides because I figure that there's a 50/50 chance that either side's view will stay on the page (for now).
:Please cite your ''documented'' evidence. &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 22:00, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
 
:: And let me add that documentation has to be ''published'' and ''third-party''. No specially privileged papers, please. &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 01:10, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I cited, in this talk page (I still don't know how to footnote), an issue of a newsletter produced at Synod by Father George-- later Bp Gregory (Grabbe) -- that included the ROCOR 1978 resolutions. Since then, I have been answered with personal opinions. I've not stated my opinion on it, but simply noted its existence. I was told it was "ROAC point of view" (because I took it off an archive run by ROAC of all the newsletters from the 70's onward) but have not been given a single documented proof that these minutes were forgeries. Then I was told HTM forged it. By contrast, every member of ROCOR received these informational newsletters which contained Synodal archives and other news stories from Synod.
:A lot of the dispute seems to me to be about whether the extant minutes are valid minutes (or something along those lines). Remember, OW is able to describe an issue without taking sides in it (e.g. 'the extant minutes say ''x'', but objections from ''name'' have been recorded regarding ''problem with extant minutes'').
:An official website is a valid resource, no matter who runs it, but it does have limitations. It doesn't matter if (to use the pertinent example) Suaiden is the webmaster of the ROAC website, if official things are on the ROAC website, then we can cite it - but that only goes towards proving that ROAC puts these ideas forward - but that doesn't, in and of itself, make it correct (and the same is true of ROCOR, AWRV, etc). If there is a dispute amongst official sources, then I see no other course for OW than to document the claims on both sides in as NPOV a manner as possible.&mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at
And AMAZINGLY, when confronted with the ugly possibility that by simply brushing off the Synodal declarations as "written by HTM", you ascribed the glorification of St Xenia of Petersburg to HTM, you decide to note that they "snuck in a declaration" which was "disavowed by the members of the Synod" with NO PROOF, NO CITATIONS, AND NO SIGNATURES. I have already accepted the possibility (not the proof, as you've provided none) that Fr Augustine rejoined the Synod in '89, so why would Bp Hilarion showing up there around that time to receive him be relevant? And how were all these people involved? Maybe they were all secretly in ROAC, which didn't exist then....--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:00, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
 
No one said that all of the material translated was not representative of the Synod's decisions - just that one item that ROCOR clergy have maintained was snuck in. Having to cite 'common knowledge' is unnecessary: this has all been common knowledge in ROCOR since before my time (beginning in 1999). The idea that the Synod was 'too feeble', is contrary to what was stated: HTM made an attempt, but did not succeed - WRITE stayed in ROCOR, and HTM left. A few online sources as related to the Western Rite in ROCOR, and the effects of the Panteleimonites on it are available - here is one:
Bishop Elect Fr. John R. Shaw on https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0607A&L=orthodox&P=R1049&D=1&O=D&m=54423 But, back to the question: why the need to be so shrill in the argument - to create straw men e.g., "denying 24 declarations ..from 1978" when that was not stated: simply that the translation was produced by HTM (and was not official), and that the item on the Western Rite produced in that translation was not recognized by members of the Synod. More ridiculous is the attempt to say some living clergy were in an 'on again/off again' relationship with their bishops: when both those clergy and bishops still living remember only continuity. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]
 
You've still cited NOTHING that demonstrates that the ROCOR document produced was an HTM forgery. To the contrary, you now admit that everything in the document was ROCOR's, save one declaration. (At least you aren't pretending that Metr Valentine of Suzdal wrote it.) The quote from Fr John Shaw did not say HTM "stuck that in" in the link you provided at all; for that matter, he says Metr Philaret didn't care about the Western rite (which wasn't true), that two Bishops in the Synod were supporters of the Western Rite (when Bp Gregory was actually an ardent support of the Western Rite at one time), and nothing related to 1978. To my knowledge Fr John has never said anything about the 1978 document and were he to do so at your urging it would frankly look disingenuous.
 
You also have no proof that HTM translated the documents when Bp Gregory (Grabbe) was perfectly capable of doing so himself and have not even provided a past assertion that this meeting was translated by HTM. As for "straw men", what would you call a repeated reference to a document you now *admit* is ROCOR as a "ROAC document", to the point of trying to fool a SysOp? Would you care to mention that this document was in the posession of every single priest you've cited? As you yourself have noted: certain priests DO in fact have an "on again, off again relationship with their Bishops".
 
So forgive me if I seem shrill. It does bother me when someone can only admit the truth (that this was not a "ROAC document", but a ROCOR one) once they've created a large series of convolutions. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:56, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
 
P.S. You wrote above: "No one said that all of the material translated was not representative of the Synod's decisions - just that one item that ROCOR clergy have maintained was snuck in."
 
This is false. You said that. One can see that by looking at your deletions in the history of the page. (I don't know how to link that).
 
"The 'documentation' provided is ROAC pov, and still is considered spurious by our clergy. "
"putting the HTM Pseudo-Synodal anti-Western rite act in context:"
"false documents cited - reverting to version based upon personal conversations with ROCOR clergy"
"The burden of proof is rather with the claim that the ROAC document was both a good translation, and accurately reflects the actual decisions of the ROCOR synod. "--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:06, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
 
:So, if I may summarise...
:- There is common acceptance of the fact that the Synod did produce a proclamation in 1979. No actual source, of course, but mutual acceptance.
:- There is common acceptance of all but one of the declarations in said proclamation.
:- One side is accusing the other of bad/faulty minute-taking.
:Burden of proof is definitely on the side that is claiming that the translation of the minutes was faulty - either by official repudiation of the translation or, perhaps, the original minutes - otherwise, the minutes must be considered to be an accurate reflection of the meeting. &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 04:41, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
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