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:I haven't had to say this before, but my personal philosophy is that 10 reverts inside an hour is, well, unsane. I'm not worried about seeming like I'm taking sides because I figure that there's a 50/50 chance that either side's view will stay on the page (for now).
:Please cite your ''documented'' evidence. — by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 22:00, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
:: And let me add that documentation has to be ''published'' and ''third-party''. No specially privileged papers, please. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 01:10, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I cited, in this talk page (I still don't know how to footnote), an issue of a newsletter produced at Synod by Father George-- later Bp Gregory (Grabbe) -- that included the ROCOR 1978 resolutions. Since then, I have been answered with personal opinions. I've not stated my opinion on it, but simply noted its existence. I was told it was "ROAC point of view" (because I took it off an archive run by ROAC of all the newsletters from the 70's onward) but have not been given a single documented proof that these minutes were forgeries. Then I was told HTM forged it. By contrast, every member of ROCOR received these informational newsletters which contained Synodal archives and other news stories from Synod.
P.S. Please cite what your argument that the "ROAC translation" (again, made at Synod in ROCOR by the secretary of the Synod a decade before ROAC existed, and while ROAC's primate was with the Moscow Patriarchate) of the Synodal decisions were never accepted with a Synodal document attesting to the same. Thanks. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:43, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
I don't have an interest in the Old Calendarist issues here, but I do want to say that I was active in the Church of France in America from late 1992 on, and served as the bishop's vicar for America beginning in early 1993. No one connected to Mt Royal, including Dom Augustine, was in any way connected to the Church of France at that time or since. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 22:58, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
The 11 years in question were 1978-1989. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 23:04, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
:A lot of the dispute seems to me to be about whether the extant minutes are valid minutes (or something along those lines). Remember, OW is able to describe an issue without taking sides in it (e.g. 'the extant minutes say ''x'', but objections from ''name'' have been recorded regarding ''problem with extant minutes'').
:An official website is a valid resource, no matter who runs it, but it does have limitations. It doesn't matter if (to use the pertinent example) Suaiden is the webmaster of the ROAC website, if official things are on the ROAC website, then we can cite it - but that only goes towards proving that ROAC puts these ideas forward - but that doesn't, in and of itself, make it correct (and the same is true of ROCOR, AWRV, etc). If there is a dispute amongst official sources, then I see no other course for OW than to document the claims on both sides in as NPOV a manner as possible. — by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at
:::Just a point of order: they are not 'extant minutes', they were a supposed translation produced by HTM-Boston, which were disavowed by members of the Synod. Fr. Averky (of blessed memory) of Jordanville told me some years ago that Gregory (Grabbe) did remove Fr. Augustine's name from the directory for ROCA "on his own initiative". It was not something accepted by the Synod, which is why he was still a priest under Bp. Hilarion (Kapral) after Gregory (Grabbe) had left ROCOR. But, no one has ever claimed (not the least Fr. Augustine) that he had left ROCOR. Documenting all 11 years is unnecessary: he was ROCOR in 1979, and still ROCOR in 1989 - and he didn't have to be 'received back'. The same happened with Fr. James of Christminster - his name is till not on the 'directory' of ROCOR, but he is under a ROCOR bishop, and celebrates with a ROCOR antimins. This is the same history and traditions I was taught from 1999 on: both by clergy, monks, and laymen who were either connected with Jordanville, HTM before it left ROCOR, and the various ROCOR WRITE works. It has often been the case that Western Rite works in the Russian church were not listed in the Russian directories (used by Russian laity) - as the Western rite works were either small monastic works, or tasked with missions: not chaplaincy to the Russians. Not being in the directory doesn't mean you aren't in the Church: having the bishop still visit, and giving an antimins: that does. The Suaiden new version stands everything on its head I've *ever* heard from any ROCOR clergy. (And yes, as Fr. Lev says, Mount Royal and Dom Augustine were not connected with L'ECOF.) Joseph Suaiden's wish for a document opposing the ROAC document isn't going to happen - the tendency is to ignore bodies like ROAC. And again, most documentation isn't online. And yes, what Bishop-Elect Fr. John R. Shaw knows about the attempt to hijack ROCOR by HTM is relevant - as the unsuccessful attempt to get rid of Fr. Augustine, and the fake 'ban' on Western rite show (for that matter, Fr. Ambrose (Young) has also written extensively on this attempt by HTM, wherein there was much published in the name of ROCOR that wasn't ROCOR speaking. Notice - you can't find that 1979 'document' on the ROCOR website: you have to go elsewhere to dig it up? An official website may be a valid website for the organization it represents: but not necessarily when speaking of other bodies. And, just because a resource isn't online doesn't mean that it shouldn't be reflected. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]
::::If I have to say it 50 times, this is not a ROAC document, because when it was written there was no ROAC.
::::You say the ban is "fake". Prove it. The document I am citing was distributed to every single priest of the ROCOR when it was printed. Where is there a public retraction of this on part of the declarations made at Synod in 1978, NOT 1979?
::::Aristibule is asking me to accept his propositions on faith. I was about to get the ROCOR directories for the period and now he is admitting neither priest was in them, but they were really "part of Synod anyway". How do we know? We know otherwise because of documentation. And if we have to go there due to the question of Fr Augustine, we will.
::::None of the newsletters were put up because none of them were computerized documents. Early versions of the Synod sites cited some of the information, but no one attempted to put up all the documentation until it was possible-- but then it became inconvenient to the purpose of union. But this is neither here nor there.
::::That would be fair enough if that was a "ROAC" position-- but it isn't! The "ROAC" page in question the document is listed from is an archive of the official newsletters of Bp Gregory (Grabbe) at Synod known as the "NEWSLETTER OF THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC AND FOREIGN RELATIONS" and the unofficial newsletters of Matushka Anastasia (Shatiloff) known as "Church News" from 1975 to 2005. The documents are not altered, but simply .pdf copies of the original typewritten and xeroxed files and are the same documents sent out to the clergy from Synod, which any honest ROCOR priest from the time would easily admit (whether he had a high opinion of them or not is another matter altogether). As I pointed out repeatedly, the ROAC did not exist in any form when these documents were written, so they can't be called "ROAC documents", and are listed on the document archive under "HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad". If Aristibule wishes to claim they were altered (which he isn't-- he is claiming they were written by HTM) then I ask him to demonstrate it. But since he has simply tried to delete the reference, I am a little confused as to how I can prove the reference is really a ROCOR source. If I get an identical copy from a ROCOR priest and scan it, can't it simply be said that I am "copying the ROAC document", to the point of the absurd?
::::There are 24 declarations of that Synod meeting in 1978. Almost 10 involve actions with Bishops. Did HTM simply make that all up? Were they responsible for the glorification of Blessed Xenia which was the first declaration of the meeting? --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 23:32, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
::::Disclaimer: I have no way to know how to interpret the claims made by Joseph and Aristibule since I am ignorant of the history of the WRITE and ROCOR. However, I am concerned with the idea expressed here and elsewhere online that HTM managed to carry out some kind of all-encompassing conspiracy to control, edit, and manipulate all information emanating out to the public in some attempt to control the Synod, in order to do various nefarious things that the Russian bishops just would have not otherwise done. Does anyone have any concrete evidence for this assertion? What did Fr Alexy Young write about it and where can we find these writings, and why should we consider him a trustworthy source on HTM considering his known affinity for Platina, who were engaged in a dispute with HTM all throughout the 1970's? Where are the responses by others to HTM from the 1970's against these attempts? Making this blanket claim seems to suggest that the entire episcopate of ROCOR was too ignorant, feeble, brainwashed, or misinformed to handle this monastery as it carried out this massive campaign throughout the 1970's. I'd like to see some concrete proof of this claim that HTM was involved in all of this.
::::I am also confused why this keeps being referred to as a ROAC document when it is merely hosted on a ROAC site.--[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 00:02, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
A private message from the ROCOR priest corrected me on one matter: it was not Bp Gregory (Grabbe) that removed Fr. Augustine's name from the directory. It was Fr. Gregory Williams of HTM-Boston (without Synodal permission). I also have personal accounts of ROCOR clergy visiting Mount Royal in 1984 and it being ROCOR, and again Bp. Hilarion serving Western Rite Vespers there again in the late 1980s. Private interviews, emails, letters - are all material that may be cited according to any style manual that I know of. AFAIK, it was only the one matter of the Western Rite that appeared in that 'translation' out of HTM that was disavowed by members of the Synod actually present at that meeting. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]
How incredibly convenient! Now Fr Gregory Williams (who was not part of HTM-Boston and did not leave ROCOR until the union of 2007) "removed the names from the directory" and Bishop Gregory Grabbe didn't recognize him. All of this was controlled by HTM. You realize St John of Kronsdadt Press produced the OFFICIAL directory of the ROCOR until 2006 (AND the quoted page on Father Augustine that you cited)?
Can you prove Fr Gregory was under HTM at all? No. He did not leave in 1986, and was not part of HOCNA at all.
But you have loads of "personal accounts". How nice.
And AMAZINGLY, when confronted with the ugly possibility that by simply brushing off the Synodal declarations as "written by HTM", you ascribed the glorification of St Xenia of Petersburg to HTM, you decide to note that they "snuck in a declaration" which was "disavowed by the members of the Synod" with NO PROOF, NO CITATIONS, AND NO SIGNATURES. I have already accepted the possibility (not the proof, as you've provided none) that Fr Augustine rejoined the Synod in '89, so why would Bp Hilarion showing up there around that time to receive him be relevant? And how were all these people involved? Maybe they were all secretly in ROAC, which didn't exist then....--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:00, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
No one said that all of the material translated was not representative of the Synod's decisions - just that one item that ROCOR clergy have maintained was snuck in. Having to cite 'common knowledge' is unnecessary: this has all been common knowledge in ROCOR since before my time (beginning in 1999). The idea that the Synod was 'too feeble', is contrary to what was stated: HTM made an attempt, but did not succeed - WRITE stayed in ROCOR, and HTM left. A few online sources as related to the Western Rite in ROCOR, and the effects of the Panteleimonites on it are available - here is one:
Bishop Elect Fr. John R. Shaw on https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0607A&L=orthodox&P=R1049&D=1&O=D&m=54423 But, back to the question: why the need to be so shrill in the argument - to create straw men e.g., "denying 24 declarations ..from 1978" when that was not stated: simply that the translation was produced by HTM (and was not official), and that the item on the Western Rite produced in that translation was not recognized by members of the Synod. More ridiculous is the attempt to say some living clergy were in an 'on again/off again' relationship with their bishops: when both those clergy and bishops still living remember only continuity. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]
You've still cited NOTHING that demonstrates that the ROCOR document produced was an HTM forgery. To the contrary, you now admit that everything in the document was ROCOR's, save one declaration. (At least you aren't pretending that Metr Valentine of Suzdal wrote it.) The quote from Fr John Shaw did not say HTM "stuck that in" in the link you provided at all; for that matter, he says Metr Philaret didn't care about the Western rite (which wasn't true), that two Bishops in the Synod were supporters of the Western Rite (when Bp Gregory was actually an ardent support of the Western Rite at one time), and nothing related to 1978. To my knowledge Fr John has never said anything about the 1978 document and were he to do so at your urging it would frankly look disingenuous.
You also have no proof that HTM translated the documents when Bp Gregory (Grabbe) was perfectly capable of doing so himself and have not even provided a past assertion that this meeting was translated by HTM. As for "straw men", what would you call a repeated reference to a document you now *admit* is ROCOR as a "ROAC document", to the point of trying to fool a SysOp? Would you care to mention that this document was in the posession of every single priest you've cited? As you yourself have noted: certain priests DO in fact have an "on again, off again relationship with their Bishops".
So forgive me if I seem shrill. It does bother me when someone can only admit the truth (that this was not a "ROAC document", but a ROCOR one) once they've created a large series of convolutions. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:56, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
P.S. You wrote above: "No one said that all of the material translated was not representative of the Synod's decisions - just that one item that ROCOR clergy have maintained was snuck in."
This is false. You said that. One can see that by looking at your deletions in the history of the page. (I don't know how to link that).
"The 'documentation' provided is ROAC pov, and still is considered spurious by our clergy. "
"putting the HTM Pseudo-Synodal anti-Western rite act in context:"
"false documents cited - reverting to version based upon personal conversations with ROCOR clergy"
"The burden of proof is rather with the claim that the ROAC document was both a good translation, and accurately reflects the actual decisions of the ROCOR synod. "--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:06, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
:So, if I may summarise...
:- There is common acceptance of the fact that the Synod did produce a proclamation in 1979. No actual source, of course, but mutual acceptance.
:- There is common acceptance of all but one of the declarations in said proclamation.
:- One side is accusing the other of bad/faulty minute-taking.
:Burden of proof is definitely on the side that is claiming that the translation of the minutes was faulty - either by official repudiation of the translation or, perhaps, the original minutes - otherwise, the minutes must be considered to be an accurate reflection of the meeting. — by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 04:41, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
