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No one said that all of the material translated was not representative of the Synod's decisions - just that one item that ROCOR clergy have maintained was snuck in. Having to cite 'common knowledge' is unnecessary: this has all been common knowledge in ROCOR since before my time (beginning in 1999). The idea that the Synod was 'too feeble', is contrary to what was stated: HTM made an attempt, but did not succeed - WRITE stayed in ROCOR, and HTM left. A few online sources as related to the Western Rite in ROCOR, and the effects of the Panteleimonites on it are available - here is one:
Bishop Elect Fr. John R. Shaw on https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0607A&L=orthodox&P=R1049&D=1&O=D&m=54423 But, back to the question: why the need to be so shrill in the argument - to create straw men e.g., "denying 24 declarations ..from 1978" when that was not stated: simply that the translation was produced by HTM (and was not official), and that the item on the Western Rite produced in that translation was not recognized by members of the Synod. More ridiculous is the attempt to say some living clergy were in an 'on again/off again' relationship with their bishops: when both those clergy and bishops still living remember only continuity. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]
You've still cited NOTHING that demonstrates that the ROCOR document produced was an HTM forgery. To the contrary, you now admit that everything in the document was ROCOR's, save one declaration. (At least you aren't pretending that Metr Valentine of Suzdal wrote it.) The quote from Fr John Shaw did not say HTM "stuck that in" in the link you provided at all; for that matter, he says Metr Philaret didn't care about the Western rite (which wasn't true), that two Bishops in the Synod were supporters of the Western Rite (when Bp Gregory was actually an ardent support of the Western Rite at one time), and nothing related to 1978. To my knowledge Fr John has never said anything about the 1978 document and were he to do so at your urging it would frankly look disingenuous.
You also have no proof that HTM translated the documents when Bp Gregory (Grabbe) was perfectly capable of doing so himself and have not even provided a past assertion that this meeting was translated by HTM. As for "straw men", what would you call a repeated reference to a document you now *admit* is ROCOR as a "ROAC document", to the point of trying to fool a SysOp? Would you care to mention that this document was in the posession of every single priest you've cited? As you yourself have noted: certain priests DO in fact have an "on again, off again relationship with their Bishops".
So forgive me if I seem shrill. It does bother me when someone can only admit the truth (that this was not a "ROAC document", but a ROCOR one) once they've created a large series of convolutions. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:56, August 4, 2008 (UTC)
