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Talk:Sarum Use

1,552 bytes added, 03:44, August 27, 2008
Pastiche
The introduction of the rite says "Sarum, 1549, 1718, et cetera"-- meaning it uses at least three liturgies-- that of Sarum, that of the 1549 BCP (which is NOT Sarum, period), and that of 1718 (the liturgy of the Non-Jurors). Add to this of course the parts from the Byzantine liturgy that were placed in. It also includes, per the text itself, part of the Gothic Missal, a French, pre-schism variation of the Roman Mass.
 
==Pastiche==
I believe, per the nature of this Liturgy's formation, that this qualifies-- very correctly-- as a pastiche.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 16:53, August 26, 2008 (UTC)
Its not 'baiting' Joe. I wouldn't say 'teamwork' either. Fr. Benjamin and I have somewhat of a gentelmanly rivalry. I think the last time we communicated directly was last may (then only to check if my email was still active.) So - the conspiracies aren't there (and, again - thank you for impugning my motives.) The simple facts: the documents pertaining to the Western rite in the Russian Orthodox Church are *still* in the possession of the Russian Orthodox Church. Vladyka Hilarion has these documents, and Saint Petroc has these documents - as do others. The Roman rite, adaptation of the BCP, and Gallican were all approved (and still are!) The Observations, by the way, were not negative - they simply left the implementation to the local diocesans in the West (which was acted upon by Vladyka Hilarion over a decade ago.) The English liturgy does not purport to be 'Sarum' or 'Old Sarum' but simply the English liturgy. The definition of a 'pastiche' is an explicit imitation: which the English liturgy is not, nor does it purport to be. (A pastiche would be something calling itself Sarum or Old Sarum which is not the original. The issue with Sarum use, of course, is its diversity. There are also 'Sarum' uses that have their own proper names though 'After the use of Sarum': eg, Aberdeen, Winchester (the basis of the LoBue English Monastic liturgy), York, etc. The ROCOR Divine Liturgy (Sarum) is one of these - Cascades Use, after the use of Sarum. Precision in language matters, and words have specific meanings. (For that matter - the Gothic Missal is *Gallican*, and - there are no Byzantine items in the English Liturgy.) --[[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 23:12, August 26, 2008 (UTC)
Who doubts the existence of archives? Maybe then you can explain what the 2007 centenary was for. Since you want to get into what is a "pastiche", pastiche has two meanings-- in Wikipedia, the first meaning: ''"In this usage, a work is called pastiche if it is cobbled together in imitation of several original works. As the Oxford English Dictionary puts it, a pastiche in this sense is "a medley of various ingredients; a hotchpotch, farrago, jumble." This meaning accords with etymology: pastiche is the French version of the greco-Roman dish pastitsio or pasticcio, which designated a kind of pie made of many different ingredients....A pastiche mass is a mass where the constituent movements are from different Mass settings. Masses are composed by classical composers as a set of movements: Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei. (Examples: the Missa Solemnis by Beethoven and the Messe de Nostre Dame by Guillaume de Machaut.) In a pastiche mass, the performers may choose a Kyrie from one composer, and a Gloria from another, or, choose a Kyrie from one setting of an individual composer, and a Gloria from another. Most often this convention is chosen for concert performances, particularly by early music ensembles."'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastiche] The "English Liturgy" is *precisely* a pastiche mass. I see you now refer to the SGP Psalter as the "Lobue liturgy", which I believe is a new low in "inter-Orthodox Western Rite ecumenical relations". I do not refer to the "English Liturgy" as the "Wood liturgy". 
== Availability of Saint Colman Prayer Book? ==
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