Difference between revisions of "Talk:Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia"
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::::In cases such as this, however, in which you have a schismatic, railing against an Orthodox Bishop... it is specifically the [[MCB]] that applies. [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 19:38, December 20, 2007 (PST)
Revision as of 06:49, December 22, 2007
I'm not sure how the Monks of HTM being "English speakers" is germane to becoming responsible for communication and publications. Did they become responsible for English language material? If so, the article should reflect that. If there is some other link, that should be noted. Otherwise, the clause about them being speakers of English is irrelevant, I think, and should be omitted.
Many thanks to the anonymous editor who helped with this article. You should consider getting an account so we know whom to thank next time. --Basil 13:46, 16 Jan 2005 (CST)
- The anonymous editor is a monastic friend of mine and something of an expert on ROCOR history. I asked him to help with the article.
- I think the issue regarding English language stuff is because the ROCOR bishops of the time were mainly in the US but largely not very good with English. --Rdr. Andrew 19:34, 16 Jan 2005 (CST)
- I could tell he was an expert. Very helpful. Please thank him for us. And thanks for the clarification. --Basil 15:14, 17 Jan 2005 (CST)
"Sources close to the synod"
In the "Rapprochement" section, recent edits were made with statements based on "sources" close to the synod. Unless these sources can be cited, it's really not much more than rumor. If there's no one on record as saying something, it makes it quite hard to justify inclusion of such material. —Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 18:04, May 26, 2006 (CDT)
Rapprochement with Moscow
I suspect that this section will need a major revision/rewrite once ROCOR and Moscow repair their communion, which is slated to take place on May 17, 2006 in Moscow. The Rapprochement section here could be rewritten as a closed narrative as opposed to an ongoing news event. Certainly there will be a bit more news surrounding the event and the ongoing relations between the two, but as the act of canonical communion becomes a reality and is enacted, I suspect that much on this page will have to be rewritten. What do you all think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maximos (talk • contribs) .
- Certainly! Articles should be as up to date as possible. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs 10:48, December 29, 2006 (PST)
A recent edit quoted a Time Magazine article, which estimates the ROCOR population at 500k to 1.5m. Since the ROCOR has roughly 400 parishes worldwide, this would put the average parish size at 1250 to 3750. That doesn't seem even remotely realistic to me.
By contrast, a recent interview with Archpriest Alexander Lebedev puts the figure at 60k to 100k (an average of 150 to 250 per parish). It seems to me that an official spokesman for the ROCOR being directly interviewed is more to be believed than Time Magazine.
60,000 to 100,000 ??
This is an OCA created number. The Russian Church Abroad has always been larger than the OCA. For example, there are 50,000 faithful in New York alone! The closer number is 1.35 million worldwide. The Church lost over 150,000 members in Russia and South America because of its reunion with the Patriarchate.
- The 60k to 100k figure comes from an interview with ROCOR spokesman Fr. Alexander Lebedev. I have my doubts that he gets his jurisdiction's statistics from the OCA. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs 18:50, May 30, 2007 (PDT)
- I think the discrepency is that Fr. Alexander was talking about the numbers of people who regularly go to Church, and the larger numbers include people who come to Church when they are hatched, matched, and dispatched. Perhaps some standard should be used that is applied to all jurisdictions, because I think most of them go with the higher numbers which include people who have loose affiliations with the Church. Frjohnwhiteford 03:49, May 31, 2007 (PDT)
- It should also be pointed out that Fr. Alexander used the words "possibly" which would indicate he was giving a guesstimate. Frjohnwhiteford 03:51, May 31, 2007 (PDT)
- I'm trying to see what I can come up with. Frjohnwhiteford 05:24, June 3, 2007 (PDT)
You logic is flawed Fr. Andrei
If you use that average system, then the OCA would only have 85,000 people?? And the Antiochians only 35,000. I know of Antiochian parishes that have only 4 people. Your logic is severely flawed. The ROCOR lists "officially" 500,000 people. The Church does not list the total number of parishes in Russia and the Ukraine (This may change due to the union.) But, it is still hesitant because of Moscow's demands over these parishes which number, nearly 775. Yes, that's right, 775!!! Not all are listed. Only 20 are listed. But in truth the total number is closer to 1.35 million.
I have seen these parishes with my own eyes.
The 1.5 million is a number supplied from the Russian government itself. The Church Abroad has always kept these numbers low to protect themselves.
http://www.dioceseinfo.org/DOCUMENTS/Diocese/commission2.html http://www.neobyzantine.org/blog/viewtopic.php?p=3793 http://templars.wordpress.com/2007/05/21/putins-reunited-russian-church/ http://action-ukraine-report.blogspot.com/2007/05/aur844-may-18-enduring-crisis-in.html
The ROCOR Church in Brooklyn was established to care for 11,000 Russians in Brooklyn who expressed interest in starting a church closer to where they live. Several thousand were present for Pascha last year.
- *shrug* I have no idea what you've seen, nor who you are (though I do have some reason to doubt that you've seen all 400 or 775 of ROCOR's parishes). All I know is that the man whom the ROCOR appointed as the secretary of the commission which negotiated the union with the MP said one thing, and an anonymous editor on this wiki is saying another. Fr. Alexander has much more credibility on this matter, methinks.
- Even Fr. Alexey Young's 1993 history of the ROCOR says that "the figure probably does not exceed 50,000 worldwide" (p. 108). I find it hard to believe that the ROCOR has grown by 1,450,000 people in the 12 years since it was published.
- The links you post here are interesting, but none are even statements from anyone in the ROCOR. We need verifiable, published statements by authoritative figures for stuff like this, not estimates in news sources, some of which are entirely anonymous.
- By the way, if you're a Greek, why did you change my name to "Fr. Andrei"? Heheh. ;) —Fr. Andrew talk contribs 19:24, May 30, 2007 (PDT) (a.k.a. Πάτερ Ανδρέας)
Sorry its a bad habit. I have many friends in the Russian Church and the Church Abroad, every parish seems to have an "Andrei," it can throw you off. The proper spelling according to the Greek/English variant is "Ohndreas." Of course "Andreas" is a more popular spelling, but linguistically inaccurate. I had a Greek friend who would call himself "Andrei" and would argue with me relentlessly that his name was in fact Greek, I explained it was a "form" of the original Greek. Being a Professor of Linguistics in Ancient Greek, I think I would know better. --Slava 10:54, May 31, 2007 (PDT)
Undid numerous Agenda driven edits
I undid numerous agenda driven edits by Samson1957. Orthodoxwiki is not a forum for Old Calendarists schismatics to promote their schismatic agenda. Read the policies of this web site. Frjohnwhiteford 20:12, December 11, 2007 (PST)
- Dear Fr. John:
- What is amazing is that an unsourced accusation is permitted to stand, and my edits regarding the patriarch, which are sourced are removed. His background, given ROCOR prior anti-Soviet stance, is very relevant. ROCOR's prior affiliation some 20 years ago with Holy Transfiguration Monastery does not seem relevant, except to disparage the reputation of HOCNA. Again, there is no source for the allegation that they left the Greek Archdiocese due to sexual scandal.
- The edits that you seem to run away from, seem to express you desire to promote your own agenda, that is to whitewash and re-write ROCOR's history.
- The edit regarding Bishop Agafangel, and the 100 priests that left with him, has also been removed. Why? How is that not relevant, if Fr. John insists on listing him as a suspended Bishop?
- I find it inappropriate for you to make accusations which you do not support with a mainstrean source, which, I may add, seems to contradict the rules of this site. You are intent on repeating accusations against Holy Transfiguration Monastery. If the accusations were true, where are the lawsuits that would inevitably follow in this litigious society. When ROCOR had its own issues with pedaphilia, in Blanco Texas, they were sued. Is ROCOR pedaphilia scandal and their law suit settlement relevant to the ROCOR article? I do not think so, so I did not add it, but perhaps it should be added, together with copies of the deposition of what happened as a source?
- I copy below my note to the moderator, who seems to agree with your position that Alexei's past as a KGB agent, which I sourced to the front page Wall Street Journal article of July 17, 2007 is not relevant.
- Would it be relevant to add after Bishop Peter, that he was uncanonically elevated without an investigation, whe a sub deacon objected to his elevation and spoke ANAXIOUS? The canons are clear on this, yet if I add that comment, it seems you would "lock me out" of use. Would it be relevant that Bishop Michael was anatamatized by Metropolitan Vitaly?, or would that be edited out as well?
- My purpose here is simply for people to be aware of facts, whereas Fr. John's purpose, and now it seems yours as well, is to tell only your version of events, which describe as "mainstream". I did not realize that truth or accusation was governed by consensus.
- Unless Fr. John can provide support for his accusations, such as a mainstream newspaper, I ask that his inflamatory, and self serving accusations regarding other jurisdictions be removed.
- Retrieved from "http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Samson1957"
- I can provide you with documentation to support what I have said about HTM... which accusations in particular would you like documentation for? As for the absence of lawsuits connected with HTM, there were no accusations of pedophilia that I am aware of. All the 20 monks that accused Panteleimon were adults. As for the claim that Agafangel has 100 parishes, you provided no source for that assertion. It seems like a rather unlikely round number to me. Frjohnwhiteford 20:28, December 13, 2007 (PST)
- Dear Fr. John:
- I look forward to your response.
--Samson1957 12:24, December 20, 2007 (PST)
- From the way that the article is written, the HTM reference definitely needs to stay - according to the article, a change was made under their influence (in substance or perception is beside the point for now) that is now part of ROCOR's history. The second paragraph probably needs shortening (the fact that HTM made it's own old-calendarist church should be comment enough, imho, for this article) - based on my own meanderings around the internet, there's probably enough information out there that we should delete everything that can't be cited.
- While discussion of Patriarch Alexei's person or most of his personal past (alleged or otherwise) is going to be mostly irrelevant, it is certainly relevant to know how ROCOR sees itself in light of accusations of KGB involvement, the sorrowful epistles and the 1983 anathema. Not being part of ROCOR, I feel underqualified to comment; but an article should be as complete as possible or should link to more detailed articles (e.g. the ROCOR and OCA article). — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 16:43, December 20, 2007 (PST)
- The best place to deal with accusations against Patriarch Alexei is in the article dedicated to him. There could be discussion in this article about the issue of Sergianism and KGB involvement, and how this was addressed during the reconciliation process. However, to not violate the MCB policy, it would have to be presented in a very different manner than the way it was presented by Samson. Frjohnwhiteford 17:10, December 20, 2007 (PST)
- That's not the way I read the OW:SM. On the contrary, the accusations of schismatics are specifically allowed, so long as they are referenced as such (e.g. the Suzdalites consider the Church of Russia to be heretics). MCB applies mostly for the name of articles, not for reporting. Moreover, MCB is largely irrelevant when reporting established, documented facts. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 22:49, December 21, 2007 (PST)