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Talk:Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia

4,227 bytes added, 04:26, December 23, 2007
Undid numerous Agenda driven edits
:From the way that the article is written, the HTM reference definitely needs to stay - according to the article, a change was made under their influence (in substance or perception is beside the point for now) that is now part of ROCOR's history. The second paragraph probably needs shortening (the fact that HTM made it's own old-calendarist church should be comment enough, imho, for this article) - based on my own meanderings around the internet, there's probably enough information out there that we should delete everything that can't be cited.
:While discussion of Patriarch Alexei's person or most of his personal past (alleged or otherwise) is going to be mostly irrelevant, it is certainly relevant to know how ROCOR sees itself in light of accusations of KGB involvement, the sorrowful epistles and the 1983 anathema. Not being part of ROCOR, I feel underqualified to comment; but an article should be as complete as possible or should link to more detailed articles (e.g. the [[ROCOR and OCA]] article). &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 16:43, December 20, 2007 (PST)
 
::The best place to deal with accusations against Patriarch Alexei is in the article dedicated to him. There could be discussion in this article about the issue of Sergianism and KGB involvement, and how this was addressed during the reconciliation process. However, to not violate the [[MCB]] policy, it would have to be presented in a very different manner than the way it was presented by Samson. [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 17:10, December 20, 2007 (PST)
 
:::I am, by no means, suggesting paragraphs or entire articles about the given topics; however, KGB involvement is obviously an issue that is affecting some people in ROCOR and may affect the way people see it and, therefore, needs to be addressed (or perhaps, if it can be smoothly done, referred to on the Patriarch's article). Naturally, how this is done must have an encyclopedic look and feel to it.
:::(As a side note, FWIW, [[OrthodoxWiki:Style_Manual_%28Point_of_View%29|the policy]] is NPOV, with MCB being used to sort any ambiguities caused by NPOV). &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at
 
::::In cases such as this, however, in which you have a schismatic, railing against an Orthodox Bishop... it is specifically the [[MCB]] that applies. [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 19:38, December 20, 2007 (PST)
 
:::::That's not the way I read the OW:SM. On the contrary, the accusations of schismatics are specifically allowed, ''so long as they are referenced as such'' (e.g. the Suzdalites consider the Church of Russia to be heretics). MCB applies mostly for the name of articles, not for reporting. Moreover, MCB is largely irrelevant when reporting established, documented facts. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τéνο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 22:49, December 21, 2007 (PST)
 
::::::There is a big difference between documented facts, and documented accusations. And while in an article on the Suzdalites it would not be in appropriate to not their opinions about the MP, it would be giving undue weight to their opinion, or any other schismatic group to have a litany of their opinions in articles about the rest of the Orthodox Church. [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 09:03, December 22, 2007 (PST)
 
:::::::In the article, I am not talking about every schismatic group, but about how ROCOR understands itself in light of accusations of alleged KGB involvement, involvement in ecumenism and previous standpoints (e.g. 1983 anathema, sorrowful epistles). These are not accusations by an extremist group but are difficulties for ROCOR, used (correctly or otherwise) as reasons for schism - as such, they are integral to the understanding of ROCOR from many of its adherants (and ex-adherants) and warrant inclusion. Additionally, from an outsider's POV, with freely-admitted limited knowledge (although I attempt to improve), there has been a big change between previous positions (or the public perception thereof) and positions taken after the reunion - that's where this article needs to step in. All that being said, ISTM that the article would be improved by taking a lot of the leadup to the Act and placing it in a different article, where the fallout could also be examined with appropriate detail.
:::::::On a policy note, the standard OW practise has been to document the documented accusations and to document them as such on OW[ [[MCB#What the Bias Does Not Mean|1]] ]. Documented and undisputed facts can, of course, be presented as such; documented accusations that are unproven or disputed can be presented, often from MCB, with disputes noted. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 20:26, December 22, 2007 (PST)
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