https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&feed=atom&action=historyTalk:Ordination of Women - Revision history2024-03-29T06:15:07ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.30.0https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&diff=52531&oldid=prevFrJohn: Moved...2007-06-07T13:59:22Z<p>Moved...</p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>There are a number of serious historical issues here that need to be addressed -- but they should be discussed at a different level. I think we want to aim for a descriptive approach, being very sensitive to [[OrthodoxWiki:Style_Manual#Neutrality_and_the_OrthodoxWiki_Bias|NPOV]]. The paragraph above contains assertions, evidently based  based on secondary literature. Instead, I think we should begin with the primary sources and then present the various interpretations of these things, citing ''who'' is saying what. I think this kind o documentary overview is an important part of what OrthodoxWiki is about. I don't want it to look like OrthodoxWiki is advocating one position over another, but rather is simply documenting the discussions that are taking place. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>There are a number of serious historical issues here that need to be addressed -- but they should be discussed at a different level. I think we want to aim for a descriptive approach, being very sensitive to [[OrthodoxWiki:Style_Manual#Neutrality_and_the_OrthodoxWiki_Bias|NPOV]]. The paragraph above contains assertions, evidently based  based on secondary literature. Instead, I think we should begin with the primary sources and then present the various interpretations of these things, citing ''who'' is saying what. I think this kind o documentary overview is an important part of what OrthodoxWiki is about. I don't want it to look like OrthodoxWiki is advocating one position over another, but rather is simply documenting the discussions that are taking place. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== Moved... ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I've moved this article from [[Feminism in the Orthodox Church]] back to Ordination of Women because "feminism" is a huge and problematic concept, and the article deals exclusively with ordination and altar service. Moreover, "Ordination of Women" is a big enough topic to have its own page. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>FrJohnhttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&diff=52529&oldid=prevFrJohn: Earlier Comments2007-06-07T13:37:47Z<p>Earlier Comments</p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>On a website (written by Fr. George of Nagoya) I read (summarized by me) "St. Basil the Great opposes ordination of female, because presbyters should represent Jesus in the liturgy. As God, he has no sex; as human he has however sex as male, so presbyters who represent Jesus in his service should be also male". I don't know where Fr. George had found this passage exactly, so no location of P.G. cannot be given now, but this argument could be included to the article. --[[User:Cat68|Cat68]] 00:29, February 17, 2007 (PST)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>On a website (written by Fr. George of Nagoya) I read (summarized by me) "St. Basil the Great opposes ordination of female, because presbyters should represent Jesus in the liturgy. As God, he has no sex; as human he has however sex as male, so presbyters who represent Jesus in his service should be also male". I don't know where Fr. George had found this passage exactly, so no location of P.G. cannot be given now, but this argument could be included to the article. --[[User:Cat68|Cat68]] 00:29, February 17, 2007 (PST)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== Earlier Comments ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Keeping in mind that this is likely to be a divisive topic, I've moved this section from [[Ordination]] to its own page.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I've also removed this paragraph from the text of the article:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:The role of women has been limited in other ways also.  Despite extensive participation by women in the first century as deacons, apostles, evangelists, and teachers, in the second century the church offically adopted policies that forbade women from preaching and teaching.  However, they served as deaconesses from the first to the twelfth century, reading prayers for the sick.  The Orthodox service book still contains the service for ordination of women to the diaconate.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">There are a number of serious historical issues here that need to be addressed -- but they should be discussed at a different level. I think we want to aim for a descriptive approach, being very sensitive to [[OrthodoxWiki:Style_Manual#Neutrality_and_the_OrthodoxWiki_Bias|NPOV]]. The paragraph above contains assertions, evidently based  based on secondary literature. Instead, I think we should begin with the primary sources and then present the various interpretations of these things, citing ''who'' is saying what. I think this kind o documentary overview is an important part of what OrthodoxWiki is about. I don't want it to look like OrthodoxWiki is advocating one position over another, but rather is simply documenting the discussions that are taking place. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>FrJohnhttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&diff=52528&oldid=prevFrJohn: 3 revision(s)2007-06-07T13:34:17Z<p>3 revision(s)</p>
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</td></tr></table>FrJohnhttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&diff=52527&oldid=prevCat68: Argument against2007-02-17T08:29:07Z<p>Argument against</p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>We can see in the Priest the Image of the Father, or that of Christ's Person, ... what we ''cannot'' do is to see in the Priest the Image of the Holy Ghost. [[User:Luci83ro|Luci83ro]] 10:52, July 20, 2006 (CDT)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>We can see in the Priest the Image of the Father, or that of Christ's Person, ... what we ''cannot'' do is to see in the Priest the Image of the Holy Ghost. [[User:Luci83ro|Luci83ro]] 10:52, July 20, 2006 (CDT)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== Argument against ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">On a website (written by Fr. George of Nagoya) I read (summarized by me) "St. Basil the Great opposes ordination of female, because presbyters should represent Jesus in the liturgy. As God, he has no sex; as human he has however sex as male, so presbyters who represent Jesus in his service should be also male". I don't know where Fr. George had found this passage exactly, so no location of P.G. cannot be given now, but this argument could be included to the article. --[[User:Cat68|Cat68]] 00:29, February 17, 2007 (PST)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Cat68https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&diff=52526&oldid=prevLuci83ro at 15:52, July 20, 20062006-07-20T15:52:55Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:52, July 20, 2006</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Bishop is like unto the Father, because he is the source of all Priesthood, just like the Father is the source of all Godhead (the Bishop is responsable for the ordination of Priests, either to "sacerdotal Priesthood", through Holy Orders, or to "general Priesthood", through Baptism&Consecration). The source in the Trinity is the Father, NOT the Holy Ghost, Who issues from the Father. (Are we considering here two sources in the Trinity? Are we "Spirituquists", or something ?)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Bishop is like unto the Father, because he is the source of all Priesthood, just like the Father is the source of all Godhead (the Bishop is responsable for the ordination of Priests, either to "sacerdotal Priesthood", through Holy Orders, or to "general Priesthood", through Baptism&Consecration). The source in the Trinity is the Father, NOT the Holy Ghost, Who issues from the Father. (Are we considering here two sources in the Trinity? Are we "Spirituquists", or something ?)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>We can see in the Priest the Image of the Father, or that of Christ's Person, ... what we ''cannot'' do is to see in the Priest the Image of the Holy Ghost.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>We can see in the Priest the Image of the Father, or that of Christ's Person, ... what we ''cannot'' do is to see in the Priest the Image of the Holy Ghost. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[[User:Luci83ro|Luci83ro]] 10:52, July 20, 2006 (CDT)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Luci83rohttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&diff=52525&oldid=prevLuci83ro at 15:52, July 20, 20062006-07-20T15:52:30Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Keeping </del>in <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">mind that this is likely to be a divisive topic</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I've moved this section from [[Ordination]] </del>to <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">its own page</del>.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">What has the Deacon/Deaconess possibly have to do with the Priest? If there were (and, thank goodness, still are) Deaconesses </ins>in <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the Gr&Rus Churches, why then, in some two millenia of historical existence</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">have these Churches never ordained Priestesses? (if they considered them "equal </ins>to <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the Apostles" -- which they very much do)</ins>.  </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I</del>'<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">ve also removed this paragraph from </del>the <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">text of </del>the <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">article:</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">To say that the Orthodox don't think that the Priest represents the Father/Son is missinformed & missinforming. Have You ever read St. Ignatius? "''Have the Bishop like unto you as the Father, the Deacons as the Son, and the Deaconesses as the Holy Spirit</ins>'<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">'" ... and "''Have the Bishop like unto you as Christ, and </ins>the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Priests as </ins>the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Apostles''".</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">:''The role of women </del>has <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">been limited in other ways </del>also. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> Despite extensive participation by women in the first century as deacons</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">apostles</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">evangelists</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">and teachers</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">in the second century </del>the <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">church offically adopted policies that forbade women from preaching and teaching.  However</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">they served as deaconesses from the first </del>to <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the twelfth century, reading prayers for the sick.  The Orthodox service book still contains the service for ordination of women </del>to <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the diaconate</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">''</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Furthermore, Jesus Christ is a Person, Who </ins>has also <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">a human Nature</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Human nature ''can'' be "masculine '''or''' feminin"</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">but a human person ''cannot'' be "masculine '''or''' feminin"</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">but "'''either''' masculin</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">'''or''' feminin". (Now</ins>, the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Priest is a Person</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">not a Nature -- </ins>to <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">say otherwise means </ins>to <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">be a little bit Nestorian in Theology)</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">There are a number </del>of <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">serious historical issues here that need </del>to <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">be addressed -- but they should be discussed at a different level. I think we want </del>to <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">aim for a descriptive approach</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">being very sensitive to [[OrthodoxWiki:Style_Manual#Neutrality_and_the_OrthodoxWiki_Bias|NPOV]]</del>. The <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">paragraph above contains assertions</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">evidently based  based on secondary literature</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Instead</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I think we should begin with </del>the <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">primary sources and then present </del>the <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">various interpretations </del>of <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">these things</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">citing </del>''<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">who</del>'' is <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">saying what. I think this kind o documentary overview is an important part </del>of <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">what OrthodoxWiki is about. I don't want it to look like OrthodoxWiki is advocating one position over another, but rather is simply documenting </del>the <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">discussions that are taking place. [[User:FrJohn|Fr</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">John]]</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The Bishop is like unto the Father, because he is the source of all Priesthood, just like the Father is the source </ins>of <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">all Godhead (the Bishop is responsable for the ordination of Priests, either </ins>to <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">"sacerdotal Priesthood", through Holy Orders, or </ins>to <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">"general Priesthood"</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">through Baptism&Consecration)</ins>. The <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">source in the Trinity is the Father, NOT the Holy Ghost</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Who issues from the Father</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">(Are we considering here two sources in the Trinity? Are we "Spirituquists"</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">or something ?)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">We can see in </ins>the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Priest </ins>the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Image </ins>of <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the Father</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">or that of Christ's Person, ... what we </ins>''<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">cannot</ins>'' <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">do </ins>is <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">to see in the Priest the Image </ins>of the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Holy Ghost</ins>.</div></td></tr>
</table>Luci83rohttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&diff=18284&oldid=prevFrJohn at 17:43, November 2, 20052005-11-02T17:43:21Z<p></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:43, November 2, 2005</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l3" >Line 3:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 3:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I've also removed this paragraph from the text of the article:</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I've also removed this paragraph from the text of the article:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The role of women has been limited in other ways also.  Despite extensive participation by women in the first century as deacons, apostles, evangelists, and teachers, in the second century the church offically adopted policies that forbade women from preaching and teaching.  However, they served as deaconesses from the first to the twelfth century, reading prayers for the sick.  The Orthodox service book still contains the service for ordination of women to the diaconate.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">''</ins>The role of women has been limited in other ways also.  Despite extensive participation by women in the first century as deacons, apostles, evangelists, and teachers, in the second century the church offically adopted policies that forbade women from preaching and teaching.  However, they served as deaconesses from the first to the twelfth century, reading prayers for the sick.  The Orthodox service book still contains the service for ordination of women to the diaconate.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>There are a number of serious historical issues here that need to be addressed -- but they should be discussed at a different level. I think we want to aim for a descriptive approach, being very sensitive to [[OrthodoxWiki:Style_Manual#Neutrality_and_the_OrthodoxWiki_Bias|NPOV]]. The paragraph above contains assertions, evidently based  based on secondary literature. Instead, I think we should begin with the primary sources and then present the various interpretations of these things, citing ''who'' is saying what. I think this kind o documentary overview is an important part of what OrthodoxWiki is about. I don't want it to look like OrthodoxWiki is advocating one position over another, but rather is simply documenting the discussions that are taking place. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>There are a number of serious historical issues here that need to be addressed -- but they should be discussed at a different level. I think we want to aim for a descriptive approach, being very sensitive to [[OrthodoxWiki:Style_Manual#Neutrality_and_the_OrthodoxWiki_Bias|NPOV]]. The paragraph above contains assertions, evidently based  based on secondary literature. Instead, I think we should begin with the primary sources and then present the various interpretations of these things, citing ''who'' is saying what. I think this kind o documentary overview is an important part of what OrthodoxWiki is about. I don't want it to look like OrthodoxWiki is advocating one position over another, but rather is simply documenting the discussions that are taking place. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]</div></td></tr>
</table>FrJohnhttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&diff=18283&oldid=prevFrJohn at 17:43, November 2, 20052005-11-02T17:43:06Z<p></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:43, November 2, 2005</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1" >Line 1:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 1:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Keeping in mind that this is likely to be a divisive topic, I've moved this section from [[Ordination]] to its own page.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Keeping in mind that this is likely to be a divisive topic, I've moved this section from [[Ordination]] to its own page.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
</table>FrJohnhttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ordination_of_Women&diff=18282&oldid=prevFrJohn at 17:42, November 2, 20052005-11-02T17:42:58Z<p></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br />
Keeping in mind that this is likely to be a divisive topic, I've moved this section from [[Ordination]] to its own page.<br />
<br />
I've also removed this paragraph from the text of the article:<br />
<br />
:The role of women has been limited in other ways also. Despite extensive participation by women in the first century as deacons, apostles, evangelists, and teachers, in the second century the church offically adopted policies that forbade women from preaching and teaching. However, they served as deaconesses from the first to the twelfth century, reading prayers for the sick. The Orthodox service book still contains the service for ordination of women to the diaconate.<br />
<br />
There are a number of serious historical issues here that need to be addressed -- but they should be discussed at a different level. I think we want to aim for a descriptive approach, being very sensitive to [[OrthodoxWiki:Style_Manual#Neutrality_and_the_OrthodoxWiki_Bias|NPOV]]. The paragraph above contains assertions, evidently based based on secondary literature. Instead, I think we should begin with the primary sources and then present the various interpretations of these things, citing ''who'' is saying what. I think this kind o documentary overview is an important part of what OrthodoxWiki is about. I don't want it to look like OrthodoxWiki is advocating one position over another, but rather is simply documenting the discussions that are taking place. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]</div>FrJohn