Changes

::Thanks very much for the note. As far as I know, max Max Michel has been "ordained" by an Old Calendarist group in the States (see http://www.oldorthodox.org/synodcommunion.html ), so please advise. Does this group belong to mainstream Old Calendarists? Max has recently published on his Web site his claimed alleged "Apostolic succession", which, as he claims, goes back to Sts Andrew and Peter through those Old Calendarist "bishops " who "ordained " him in the States ( http://www.bishopmaximus.com/articles_body.php?id=129 ). --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 04:44, September 18, 2006 (CDT) :I expect that Leonidas would know if they had any regard among the mainstream Greek-American Old-Calendarists. (I don't know many Old-Claendarists, but Leonides, a personal friend, knows more about the movement as anyone I've ever met.) The claim to "apostolic succession" is a familiar trope which, in an Orthodox context, I think is almost meaningless. As I see it, we understand that apostolic succession must mean much more than a mere linear succession; it requires communion with the body of the Church. The ancient dictum "unus Christianus, nullus Christianus" (one Christian is no Christian) certainly applies to bishops, conveniently located far off and bolstered with self-aggrandizing claims to their own succession. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) ::Some background: http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6883 Max was ordained by "Mar Melchisedek" (your first hint it is not a real Old Calendarist is the Syriac title) of the "Eparchy of Nebraska" (second clue as we don't use the term Eparchy). As the background, Mar Melchisedek was ordained by the Timotheos group if I am correct, which has its origins in Joachim Souris, a bishop ordained by Arsenios Saltas, who was ordained by the infamous Christopher Contageorge, of proto-vagante fame. This Souris went to Greece and established himself as an "Archbishop" of the Old Calendarists even though we already had a Synod. These people are vagantes and have no association with us whatsoever. [[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] ===Deletion===[[User:HSAD|HSAD]], please explain your deletion. If you delete this again without explanation, your account will be suspended from OrthodoxWiki. You are welcome to contest facts, if that is the issue, but you may not simply suppress the conversation. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) == HOCNA == At the present time, Fr. John is editing the aticle written on HOCNA. We have provided many links to primary documents. Too much has been made of the moral accusations (made by by witnesses unworthy to make allegations against a clergyman) and not by the infractions against the Anathema of 1983 against Ecumenism which all the bishops of ROCOR signed in 1983. I have put "The Holy Orthodox Church in North America: In 1986, the monks of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA were accused of moral crimes. The accusers were not worthy witnesses according to Sacred Canons and the monastery asked for a canonical investigation and trial for 11 months before giving up hope. At the same time, the clergy that were to become HOCNA noted that even before the moral accusations were given serious consideration by the bishops of ROCOR, there were many violations of the Anathema Against Ecumenism that all the Bishops of ROCOR had signed in 1983. When it became clear by the bishop's silence in regard to the violations of the Anathema and also the indiscreet spreading of slander against Holy Transfiguration Monastery that their protests were considered tiresome and were not being delt with in a pastoral way, they, with approximately one-thirteeth of the North American parishes of the ROCOR, left the ROCOR" There is also misinformation on when administrative unity was lost with Greece. The bishops in North America never broke communion with Archbishop Auxentios, but with Archbishop Maximos after he had consecrated bishops without the permission of the other bishops.  The main issues that presently prevent administrative unity between HOCNA and one of the synods in Greece are respect for diocesan boundries and suspicion of the Kollivades traditions in HOCNA such as frequent Holy Communion (weekly in the parishes and daily in the monasteries if there are no impediments), the canonicity of the icon of the Holy Trinity other than the Hospitality of Abraham, etc. which are not part of the general fabric of Church life among the "True Orthodox" in Greece with the exception, perhaps, of the Synod of Arcbishop Cyprian of Fili. Another impediment was the issue of the "deposition" of Archbishop Auxentios which has now, glory be to God, been retracted by both the Chrysostomite and Makarian Synods and is no longer an issue. Finally, I would question the assertion that the "Old Calendar" synods in Bulgaria and Romania give the Holy Mysteries to those who follow the New Calendar or are involved in Ecumenism. I do not think they do. Perhaps in Greece the Synod of Cyprian of Fili does, but not in these other Synods, though obviously their differing practices have not made them break communion with Archbishop Cyprian.[[User:Fr. Sergius|Fr. Sergius]] 21:28, January 5, 2007 (PST) And this is perhaps the difficulty of a publicly edited encyclopedia. This version of the HOCNA story is absolutely subjective. The idea that NONE of the accusers were worthy witnesses is irrelevant, because what became HOCNA didn't stay to stand trial to begin with. They stayed for 11 months, but when just as the trial would really happen, they left. Then they claimed they ran out of patience after the fact.  The retraction by the Chrysostomite and Makarian Synods of Auxentios and his Bishops had specific provisions REFUSING to recognize HOCNA. Certainly I believe in both sides being represented in any story. But I would like to see where there is any credence given to the other side in your story. Admitting that moral charges were lobbed at Fr Panteleimon alone-- and then proceeding to smash away at its invalidity--is not objective writing, and I am sure that you are aware of this.  In the end, I am sure that people will lack the resources to stop HOCNA's attempt to control the traditional Orthodox internet. Having lived in HTM, I am aware of the access that the approved fathers have to the internet. The rest of us can answer folks, and then we go back to our jobs. Sadly, for some, this IS their job.-- [[JoeSuaiden|Joseph Suaiden]] == synod of Archbishop Timotheos? == Is there any information to be had on a Greek Old Calendarist synod in Athens under an Archbishop Timotheos, and which includes a Bishop Pavlos, a Bishop Timotheos, and a Metropolitan Stephen? It doesn't seem to be included in the article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 14:46, September 18, 2008 (UTC) See the discussion on "Max Michel" above. Timotheos Athanassiou was made a "Bishop" by Joachim Souris, an individual who was made a "Bishop" through a meeting of independent Bishops, one of whom claimed to be "Archbishop of Byzantium" (Peter Zhurawetsky) and also came from the renovationist "Living Church" schism in Russia. None of these men had a following of any merit, and Bishop Souris' claim to fame seems to be that he's consecrated all of his followers Bishops. [http://www.google.com/search?q=Joachim+Souris&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=mozilla&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial| A cursory search through Google will show innumerable groups claiming lineage] from Joachim Souris. {{unsigned|JosephSuaiden}} Apologies. I forgot.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:57, January 8, 2009 (UTC) == New Can of Worms == I've removed two links because they are totally nonsensical. One is another vagante group which is not "Old Calendarist" at all, and the other is the "ROAC in America". I question whether we can include a link to a Bishop who does not have more than titular jurisdiction in America, since he would just be considered part of his parent jurisdiction. Frankly, Gregory of Colorado's and HOCNA's links to claiming jurisdiction in America are also laughable, so I don't see why there is a section in "America", unless we wish to include every true Orthodox Bishop in the US-- which would mean all ROCiE sections and more. Actually, without deleting everyone that might be the only solution.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 19:05, January 11, 2009 (UTC) == My Revisions are Complete == I think that's all I've got for fixes; I tried to remove bias, and add more links per my comments above, as well as address the "in resistance" issue by creating a section discussing the ecclesiology and linking to it when relevant.  I hope this is a general improvement.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:33, January 11, 2009 (UTC) == Autonomous status == I deleted the HOCNA entry from the list of churches claiming autonomy, I would have cited this but I don't know where I would put the citation on a deleted entry. [http://www.homb.org/resources/docs/Not-Autocephalous-Dec-2010.pdf Here] you will find a document straight from the HOCNA website put out by two HOCNA bishops stating that HOCNA claims neither autonomy nor autocephaly == Changes to Cyprian of Fili's group's description ==The changes I made to this paragraph are because I was not aware that only groups that have made the calendar a matter of doctrine are the only people who are truly Orthodox, therefore the reference to "True Orthodox" must have been a shortening of the name of a specific Old Calendarist group. Otherwise, OrthodoxWiki would be claiming that people like me are "false Orthodox". Second, as far as I know, there is no such thing as a "New Calendarist State Church", or however it was named. I guessed that this was some sort of propaganda-style reference to the Church of Greece. [[User:Bryanjmaloney|Bryanjmaloney]] 15:07, April 30, 2011 (UTC) == which Metropolitan Chrysostom is this? == "After the death of Metropolitan Chrysostom, the Florinites had no bishops, and Metropolitan Chrysostom advised his flock ...." Who is this second Metropolitan Chrysostom? --[[User:Richardson mcphillips1|Richardson mcphillips1]] 00:46, June 5, 2011 (UTC)