Difference between revisions of "Talk:Old Calendarists"
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== Autonomous status ==
== Autonomous status ==
I deleted the HOCNA entry from the list of churches claiming autonomy, I would have cited this but I don't know where I would put the citation on a deleted entry. [http://www.homb.org/resources/docs/Not-Autocephalous-Dec-2010.pdf Here] you will find a document straight from the HOCNA website put out by two HOCNA bishops stating that HOCNA claims neither autonomy nor autocephaly.
I deleted the HOCNA entry from the list of churches claiming autonomy, I would have cited this but I don't know where I would put the citation on a deleted entry. [http://www.homb.org/resources/docs/Not-Autocephalous-Dec-2010.pdf Here] you will find a document straight from the HOCNA website put out by two HOCNA bishops stating that HOCNA claims neither autonomy nor autocephaly
Revision as of 15:07, April 30, 2011
Is it really right to classify ROCOR as "Old Calendarist"? Their separation didn't have anything to do with the calendar change, and they're apparently on the verge of reunion with Moscow, anyhow. --Rdr. Andrew 13:00, 28 Feb 2005 (CST)
I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico and I noticed an interesting looking monastery located in a house near the downtown area. I looked on the Internet and I found that they have a website. They seem to be Old Calendarists. See http://www.kazanmonastery.org Their website says: "Originally founded as a center for first generation Russian and Greek Orthodox living in the Albuquerque metro area. These were members of the Old Calendar Church - continuing the practice of following the Julian calendar." Would they be included as an Old Calendarist congregation? Sincerely, Colleen Lowry
- 1 Archbishop Gregory (Dormition Skete / Colorado)
- 2 Article bias?
- 3 "Kiousis Synod"
- 4 Walling off vs In Resistance
- 5 Changes
- 6 Egyptian "Old Calendarists"
- 7 HOCNA
- 8 synod of Archbishop Timotheos?
- 9 New Can of Worms
- 10 My Revisions are Complete
- 11 Autonomous status
- 12 Changes to Cyprian of Fili's group's description
Archbishop Gregory (Dormition Skete / Colorado)
How should his eminence be classified? As a separate jurisdiction? Eddieuny 21:18, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)
- Good question. What does he call his jurisdiction? Are there any other bishops in it with him? Their website describes them as "temporarily independent." I'd hate to make up a name for them if they didn't have their own, but they are probably worth a mention. —Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 21:48, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)
- Oh, here we go: http://www.roacamerica.org/
- It seems they're the "Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America." —Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 22:15, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)
- It appears that Archbishop Gregory has changed his church's name to the "Genuine Orthodox Church of America." link title. However, this may be ambiguous as the Metropolis of the GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos is called GOC as is the Makarian Synod's presence in America. --Anastasios 14:07, February 20, 2006 (CST)
I received this feedback today from someone. Any comments? Thanks, Fr. John
- Interesting. I think this article illustrates some of the problems with a publicly edited encyclopedia. Just a couple examples...
- Headed by Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal, the synod has twelve bishops and is enjoying a period of relative stability amidst intermittent persecution on the part of the state church. One bishop, Gregory (George) of Colorado, recently went into schism, but took no parishes with him save four, calling themselves the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.
- This seems very biased in favor of Valentine and against Gregory (note that I am not the least bit fond of either of them).
Hi, this is Joseph Suaiden writing from a new account. While I am no longer part of ROAC, I still wouldn't retratct that. When Gregory discovered the Synod was issuing an order to appear at a Synodal trial, he fled the US, and hid in Greece for somewhere around a month, with only his followers able to communicate with him. In fact, they are now down to ONE active parish in America. So much for the "Genuine Orthodox Church of America". Joseph Suaiden
- In 2001, after the ROCOR made a clear commitment to union with the Moscow Patriarchate, the head of the ROCOR synod, Metropolitan Vitaly, retired in clear disgust from the proceedings.
- Almost immediately afterwards, Metropolitan Vitaly, Archbishop Varnava of Cannes, and the two of the Russian bishops of ROCOR, separated from the ROCOR and made new bishops. The proceedings that led up to these events are well documented on the Internet and the treatment of the retired head of the ROCOR was painful to watch, for even the most casual observer.
- Again, obvious bias in favor of the Mansonville schismatics (yes, I have a personal interest here).
I don't see why it couldn't be worded a bit more neutrally. The original bulk of the article was taken by permission from a text written by a scholar in the field (who is himself, I believe, in one of these groups), JosephSuaiden. In any event, it's curious that the person who wrote to you didn't see instead the inherent strengths of a publicly editable encyclopedia and come contribute.
- I don't know precisely what is the issue here-- frankly, even Bishops of the ROCOR admitted that the event was handled badly, and Bp Michael was disciplined for his involvement in the videotaped incident, regardless of whether or not Mansonville was schismatic. I'll try to be careful; I have been updating my base text to reflect a number of recent changes-- there are now three mansonville groups, to start with.... Joseph Suaiden
I changed the eponym for the "Kiousis" Synod to "Chrysostomite". This is how it is known and referred to in Greece. The alternative "Kiousis Synod" is used in polemical contexts by its detractors. "Chrysostomite" is commonly used to refer to both Chrysostom of Florina (as opposed to Matthewite) and Chrysostom (Kiousis) of Athens (as opposed to Auxentite). I also corrected the timeline of the Florenite ordinations and the removal of Auxentios in 1986.
- Thanks Leonidas! Good to see you here - Fr. John
Walling off vs In Resistance
It seems that these terms are used more by the Exarchate of the Synod in Resistance in their literature interchangeably. I have not seen this terminology used in any of my church's (GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria) publications in English (although we don't have a large publishing arm!), but I am not sure how these matters are discussed in Greek. From our POV, we are not "in resistance" as we are the local Church of Greece and its American Metropolis (sorry if this offends anyone in the New Calendar Church, but I am just stating the official view) so there is nothing to "resist." Walling off implies that we hold the State Church of Greece to be on equal footing, but just a separate part. I don't see any difference between walling off and being in resistance.
To break the discussion down to "Synods condemning New Calendarists as Graceless" and "those not" would be futile as well, as all the Greek Synods except the Synod in Resistance have done so, yet there have been vocal critics of this policy even within these synods (i.e. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria).
In other words, I don't quite have the answer (although I will think about it some more) but I hope I have pointed out some potential ambiguities.
Anastasios 14:53, February 20, 2006 (CST)
Some changes that needed to be made:
a) Clarification of the 1995 split in Kiousis Synod: Only Euthymios of Thessaloniki was charged with moral infractions. b) Cyprianite Ecclesiology is not widely considered heretical among Greek Old Calendarists, regardless of a 1987 Synodal Decision by the Kiousis Synod. "Cyprianite Eccelsiology" is generally found objectionable because it is seen to blurr the distinction (the boundary created by the act of breaking communion and "walling-off") between World Orthodoxy and the Old Calendar Church and mostly because it is percieved to have been articulted in order to justify divisions within the Old Calendar Church: namely the existance of the Synod in Resistance. c) The reference to a Cyprianite priest in Georgia erased: this isn't the place for invective against individuals.
Egyptian "Old Calendarists"
The jurisdictions, affiliations, and ordinations mentioned in this entry--and the "Holy Synod of bishops headed by Max Michel"--are all highly questionable, if not completely bogus. This jurisidiciton is not a mainstream Old Calendar jurisdiction and it is not recognized by anyone. It really doesn't have a place here, at least in this article.
In general, the Old Calendar movement is Greek as it came as a reaction to the Calendar Reforms of the 1920's in the Greek-speaking churches of Constantinople and Greece.
The Russian Church Abroad came to be associated with this movement in the 1960's as its hierarchs restored the Florenite hiearchy in 1960 after the death of Metropolitan Chrysostom of Florina. Especially under Metropolitan Philaret, the ROCA took an interest in the Greek Old Calendarists, involving itself even in the efforts for reconciliation between Florinites and Matthewites in 1972.
The ROCA and its splinter groups thus come to be included in discussions on the Old Calendar only a) in view of the above described involvement in the ecclesiastic life of the Greek Old Calendar Church and b) in regards to the movment to resist Ecumenism by abstaining from communion with the "World Orthodox" jurisdictions.
A working definition, then, of who and what should be included in this article would be those jurisdicitions which fall into the category of Greek Old Calendarist-ROCA: all those jurisdictions which trace their origins from the ROCA or from the Greek Florenites or Matthewites.
- Thanks for the explanation and clarifying comments, Leonidas. It's helpful for making sense of the situation. Maybe the material on Max Michel should be moved to Episcopi vagantes? — FrJohn (talk)
- P. S. Just noticed we don't have a listing there - maybe that's just as well.
- Thanks very much for the note. As far as I know, Max Michel has been "ordained" by an Old Calendarist group in the States (see http://www.oldorthodox.org/synodcommunion.html ), so please advise. Does this group belong to mainstream Old Calendarists? Max has recently published on his Web site his alleged "Apostolic succession", which, as he claims, goes back to Sts Andrew and Peter through those Old Calendarist "bishops" who "ordained" him in the States ( http://www.bishopmaximus.com/articles_body.php?id=129 ). --Arbible 04:44, September 18, 2006 (CDT)
- I expect that Leonidas would know if they had any regard among the mainstream Greek-American Old-Calendarists. (I don't know many Old-Claendarists, but Leonides, a personal friend, knows more about the movement as anyone I've ever met.) The claim to "apostolic succession" is a familiar trope which, in an Orthodox context, I think is almost meaningless. As I see it, we understand that apostolic succession must mean much more than a mere linear succession; it requires communion with the body of the Church. The ancient dictum "unus Christianus, nullus Christianus" (one Christian is no Christian) certainly applies to bishops, conveniently located far off and bolstered with self-aggrandizing claims to their own succession. — FrJohn (talk)
- Some background: http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6883
Max was ordained by "Mar Melchisedek" (your first hint it is not a real Old Calendarist is the Syriac title) of the "Eparchy of Nebraska" (second clue as we don't use the term Eparchy). As the background, Mar Melchisedek was ordained by the Timotheos group if I am correct, which has its origins in Joachim Souris, a bishop ordained by Arsenios Saltas, who was ordained by the infamous Christopher Contageorge, of proto-vagante fame. This Souris went to Greece and established himself as an "Archbishop" of the Old Calendarists even though we already had a Synod. These people are vagantes and have no association with us whatsoever. Anastasios
HSAD, please explain your deletion. If you delete this again without explanation, your account will be suspended from OrthodoxWiki. You are welcome to contest facts, if that is the issue, but you may not simply suppress the conversation. — FrJohn (talk)
At the present time, Fr. John is editing the aticle written on HOCNA. We have provided many links to primary documents. Too much has been made of the moral accusations (made by by witnesses unworthy to make allegations against a clergyman) and not by the infractions against the Anathema of 1983 against Ecumenism which all the bishops of ROCOR signed in 1983. I have put "The Holy Orthodox Church in North America: In 1986, the monks of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA were accused of moral crimes. The accusers were not worthy witnesses according to Sacred Canons and the monastery asked for a canonical investigation and trial for 11 months before giving up hope. At the same time, the clergy that were to become HOCNA noted that even before the moral accusations were given serious consideration by the bishops of ROCOR, there were many violations of the Anathema Against Ecumenism that all the Bishops of ROCOR had signed in 1983. When it became clear by the bishop's silence in regard to the violations of the Anathema and also the indiscreet spreading of slander against Holy Transfiguration Monastery that their protests were considered tiresome and were not being delt with in a pastoral way, they, with approximately one-thirteeth of the North American parishes of the ROCOR, left the ROCOR"
There is also misinformation on when administrative unity was lost with Greece. The bishops in North America never broke communion with Archbishop Auxentios, but with Archbishop Maximos after he had consecrated bishops without the permission of the other bishops.
The main issues that presently prevent administrative unity between HOCNA and one of the synods in Greece are respect for diocesan boundries and suspicion of the Kollivades traditions in HOCNA such as frequent Holy Communion (weekly in the parishes and daily in the monasteries if there are no impediments), the canonicity of the icon of the Holy Trinity other than the Hospitality of Abraham, etc. which are not part of the general fabric of Church life among the "True Orthodox" in Greece with the exception, perhaps, of the Synod of Arcbishop Cyprian of Fili. Another impediment was the issue of the "deposition" of Archbishop Auxentios which has now, glory be to God, been retracted by both the Chrysostomite and Makarian Synods and is no longer an issue.
Finally, I would question the assertion that the "Old Calendar" synods in Bulgaria and Romania give the Holy Mysteries to those who follow the New Calendar or are involved in Ecumenism. I do not think they do. Perhaps in Greece the Synod of Cyprian of Fili does, but not in these other Synods, though obviously their differing practices have not made them break communion with Archbishop Cyprian.Fr. Sergius 21:28, January 5, 2007 (PST)
And this is perhaps the difficulty of a publicly edited encyclopedia. This version of the HOCNA story is absolutely subjective. The idea that NONE of the accusers were worthy witnesses is irrelevant, because what became HOCNA didn't stay to stand trial to begin with. They stayed for 11 months, but when just as the trial would really happen, they left. Then they claimed they ran out of patience after the fact.
The retraction by the Chrysostomite and Makarian Synods of Auxentios and his Bishops had specific provisions REFUSING to recognize HOCNA. Certainly I believe in both sides being represented in any story. But I would like to see where there is any credence given to the other side in your story. Admitting that moral charges were lobbed at Fr Panteleimon alone-- and then proceeding to smash away at its invalidity--is not objective writing, and I am sure that you are aware of this.
In the end, I am sure that people will lack the resources to stop HOCNA's attempt to control the traditional Orthodox internet. Having lived in HTM, I am aware of the access that the approved fathers have to the internet. The rest of us can answer folks, and then we go back to our jobs. Sadly, for some, this IS their job.-- Joseph Suaiden
synod of Archbishop Timotheos?
Is there any information to be had on a Greek Old Calendarist synod in Athens under an Archbishop Timotheos, and which includes a Bishop Pavlos, a Bishop Timotheos, and a Metropolitan Stephen? It doesn't seem to be included in the article. --Fr Lev 14:46, September 18, 2008 (UTC)
See the discussion on "Max Michel" above. Timotheos Athanassiou was made a "Bishop" by Joachim Souris, an individual who was made a "Bishop" through a meeting of independent Bishops, one of whom claimed to be "Archbishop of Byzantium" (Peter Zhurawetsky) and also came from the renovationist "Living Church" schism in Russia. None of these men had a following of any merit, and Bishop Souris' claim to fame seems to be that he's consecrated all of his followers Bishops.
A cursory search through Google will show innumerable groups claiming lineage from Joachim Souris. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JosephSuaiden (talk • contribs) .
Apologies. I forgot.--JosephSuaiden 02:57, January 8, 2009 (UTC)
New Can of Worms
I've removed two links because they are totally nonsensical. One is another vagante group which is not "Old Calendarist" at all, and the other is the "ROAC in America". I question whether we can include a link to a Bishop who does not have more than titular jurisdiction in America, since he would just be considered part of his parent jurisdiction. Frankly, Gregory of Colorado's and HOCNA's links to claiming jurisdiction in America are also laughable, so I don't see why there is a section in "America", unless we wish to include every true Orthodox Bishop in the US-- which would mean all ROCiE sections and more.
Actually, without deleting everyone that might be the only solution.--JosephSuaiden 19:05, January 11, 2009 (UTC)
My Revisions are Complete
I think that's all I've got for fixes; I tried to remove bias, and add more links per my comments above, as well as address the "in resistance" issue by creating a section discussing the ecclesiology and linking to it when relevant.
I hope this is a general improvement.--JosephSuaiden 20:33, January 11, 2009 (UTC)
I deleted the HOCNA entry from the list of churches claiming autonomy, I would have cited this but I don't know where I would put the citation on a deleted entry. Here you will find a document straight from the HOCNA website put out by two HOCNA bishops stating that HOCNA claims neither autonomy nor autocephaly
Changes to Cyprian of Fili's group's description
The changes I made to this paragraph are because I was not aware that only groups that have made the calendar a matter of doctrine are the only people who are truly Orthodox, therefore the reference to "True Orthodox" must have been a shortening of the name of a specific Old Calendarist group. Otherwise, OrthodoxWiki would be claiming that people like me are "false Orthodox". Second, as far as I know, there is no such thing as a "New Calendarist State Church", or however it was named. I guessed that this was some sort of propaganda-style reference to the Church of Greece. Bryanjmaloney 15:07, April 30, 2011 (UTC)