Open main menu

OrthodoxWiki β


Revision as of 00:28, April 17, 2007 by Frjohnwhiteford (talk | contribs) (Using the Google Method -- Orthros vs. Matins)


I don't understand why this article is entitled 'Orthros' when 'Matins' is both the accepted and proper term in English. Can someone enlighten me? -- Pistevo 14:22, December 13, 2005 (CST)

Early on we had a discussion and elected to go with the Greek Orthros rather than the Latinate Matins as the standard for this article. This follows the pattern used elsewhere on OrthodoxWiki of preferring the Greek form of a name as the main article, with variants redirecting to it (see, for instance Diakonissa and Shamassy, Presbytera and Matushka, etc.). —Dcn. David talk contribs 14:47, December 13, 2005 (CST)
cf. style manual and previous conversation regarding use of Greek terminology —magda (talk) 14:49, December 13, 2005 (CST)
Thanks. I knew that was somewhere, but couldn't find it quickly. You are always rescuing me. I appreciate it. ;-) —Dcn. David talk contribs 15:18, December 13, 2005 (CST)
As far as I can see, the relevant part of the style manual says: "Thus, the preference for OrthodoxWiki will be to use Greek terms where no standard English word is predominant among Anglophonic Orthodox writers". The critical difference between Matins vs Orthros and Presvytera vs Matushka is that Matins is an English word, and is unquestionably predominant. -- Pistevo 03:02, December 14, 2005 (CST)
Is it? At least in the US (can't speak for y'all in the Global Deep South), Orthros is the preferred term among Byzantine tradition churches (which are in the majority). —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 07:37, December 14, 2005 (CST)
*greatly surprised*. If Orthros is predominant in North America, then I agree that it's probably best as it is (since most English translations - and most web-surfers - are from there anyway). In my neck of the woods, I'd have to pronounce Orthros with a Greek accent (like, say, Pistevo), because it'd sound like I was using a technical term. -- — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 16:46, December 14, 2005 (CST)

Using the Google Method -- Orthros vs. Matins

Orthos: 57,500 hits

Mattins: 60,400 hits

Matins: 3,990,000 hits

I think "Matins" wins by a long shot.  :)

Frjohnwhiteford 11:20, April 16, 2007 (PDT)

Indeed. (No doubt your millions of voters there are mostly heretics, however!) However, this is not a spelling issue. This instead falls under the "Do we use Greek or Russian or Arabic or English technical terms"? "Matins" is clearly not favored by a massive amount of Anglophonic Orthodoxy, so the standard we've long used is to use Greek terminology for technical and theological terms, since it is original and universal.
See: OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual#Technical Terminology. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs 14:22, April 16, 2007 (PDT)
I can live with Orthros, although I disagree that this represents the largest part of Orthodox English-speaking usage.
You can do more limited Google searches, such as "+Orthodox +Orthros" vs. "+Orthodox +Matins" and Matins wins by a 110,000:28,700 ratio. You can also do site searches, which are very interesting:
The two jurisdictions most likely to use "Orthros" are almost evenly split between the two: +Orthros =197 +Matins =205 hits +Orthros =608 +Matins =513

In the Slavic Churches in America, it is not even close: +Orthros =17 +Matins =609 site:/ +Orthros =0 site:/ +Matins =23 site:/ +Orthros =0 site:/ +Matins =1 +Orthros =0 +Matins =1 +Orthros =0 +Matins =3

A big Orthodox site: +Orthros =6 +Matins =42

An important Greek, New Calendar web site with liturgical texts: +Orthros =1 +Matins =109

And then if you go across the pond, to the mother land, you find the following: +Orthros =2 +Matins =246 +Orthros =2 +Matins =13 +Orthros =1 +Matins =12 +Orthros =0 +Matins =6

And so in Great Britain, it crosses all ethnic boundaries.
Then, if you look at the major English translations, you have Nassar, Hapgood, Ware, Boston, Jordanville, and St. John of Kronstadt Press, all using Matins. In fact, I am unaware of any widely used Orthodox English text that uses "Orthros". I know what "Orthros" is, but honestly, I think far more people don't... and at least Matins rings a bell with most. But while this is my opinion, I am partly just yanking your chain here.  :) I can live with "Orthros".  :) Frjohnwhiteford 17:11, April 16, 2007 (PDT)
Return to "Matins" page.