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Talk:List of autocephalous and autonomous churches

5,150 bytes added, 22:23, November 29, 2012
Archbishopric of Ohrid
:: Father Andrew, thanks for your answers. From what you say one may conclude that the "seat at the table in an inter-Orthodox gathering" is the measure of autonomy (and autocephaly). That would not be true. But, let's say that is correct. In that case, can you please name the last gathering where, for example, the Church of China was given an autonomous seat? If this criteria, however, proves to be true, we should write that in the "autonomy" page in this Wiki.
:: You mention a meeting from which the representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate walked away. If you are referring to the meeting in Ravena Ravenna in October 2007, allow me to point out that first of all that was not an Inter-Orthodox meeting. What is more important is the fact that the Estonian delegation was part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate delegation, they were not invited as an autonomous church and reserved an autonomous seat.
:: But, since autonomy (unlike autocephaly) is an internal matter of each Church, the Ecumenical Patriarchate chose to include a representative from its Estonian Church in its delegation.
:: At last, please have in mind that the problem in Estonia is because due to the fact that two canonical orthodox Partriarchates claim juristiction over that territory, i.e. there are two canonical juristictions there. That is not the case with the autonomous Archbishopric of Ohrid which is the only canonical Church on the territory of R. Macedonia.
:: [[User:K.panteleimon|K.panteleimon]] 09:3839, June 2, 2009 (UTC)  :: Furthermore, here is a denial of the statement "recognized only by Serbia", and an explanation how autonomy is percieved in the orthodox world by Metropolitan Kiril of Varna, (canonical) Orthodox Church of Bulgaria: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLNsNcGH5nY who, asked about the autonomy of the Archbishopric of Ohrid and how the Church of Bulgaria sees this matter, says that "when one a canonical orthodox Church reaches a decision, we accept that without disputes. For us it is vaild." and later "it is not correct that I comment on the decisions of another Church, it is their internal matter". He gives nice explanations, please take your time to hear his statements.:: [[User:K.panteleimon|K.panteleimon]] 18:29, June 2, 2009 (UTC) : I've addressed most of your comments at [[Talk:Autonomy]]. : I did not say, by the way, that a church's participation in inter-Orthodox gatherings is "the measure" of autonomy or autocephaly, but rather, it is one aspect of it. That is why it actually makes a difference when one church recognizes or fails to recognize another's independent status. : Anyway, one Bulgarian bishop speaking for himself does not constitute a representation of the whole Orthodox world's regard for the Ohrid archdiocese. On which churches' diptychs is the Ohrid archdiocese listed among the autonomous churches? I can't find it listed in any of the usual sources. &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 01:24, June 3, 2009 (UTC) :: Father Andrew, according to this Wiki, "The [[Diptych]]s is a list of names used by an autocephalous church to commemorate the primates of all the world's autocephalous churches." It does not say that the autonomous churches are included in the list. That can also be seen in the official Diptych of OCA which is given in the link. Unless it means that OCA does not recognize any autonomous church.  :: Also according to this Wiki "[[Autonomy]] (literally, "self-ruled") is the status of a church within the Orthodox Church whose primatial bishop is confirmed by one of the autocephalous Orthodox Churches." It does not mention a requirement of an additional recognition by the other orthodox Churches. :: Actually, you were the one that contributed these entries :-) :: I clearly asked "What other form of recognition by the other churches is needed?". You say an automouns seat in an inter-orthodox meeting, as one aspect. Again, can you point out when the other autonomous churches were given such seats, especially the Church of China? :: Please also point out your usual sources of diptychs where the autonomous churches are listed, I am very curious to see which Prelate of the Church of China is usually commemorated on a Liturgy. :: By the way, Metropolitan Kiril of Varna was not speaking for himself. He refused to answer the questions that he was not delegated by the Synod of his Church to speak about.:: [[User:K.panteleimon|K.panteleimon]] 10:59, June 3, 2009 (UTC) : The Archbishopric of Ohrid is also recognised by the Church of Greece. The Holy Synod of Greece has decided to accept people coming from the FYROM as Orthodox, only if their baptism has been validated by the Autonomous Archbishopric. [[User:Rhodion|Rhodion]] 12:23, November 29, 2012 (HST)
== ROCOR's autonomy ==
:: Interesting, but dated. The patriarchal rank of Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria and Georgia were all either established or restored after 1754. In any event, I wouldn't take that (whatever it is) as a reliable source on how the Orthodox churches are actually ranked by the Orthodox churches. &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 00:49, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
 
== More and Less Orthodox Churches ==
 
Apart from here, on this Wiki, I have never heard of such distictions like: "Inter-Orthodox Order" and "Expanded Order" (not to start again about "Independence" in the Church). The terminolgy itself testifies that this separation is odd, to say at least. As if there were "more orthodox" and "less orthodox" churches.
 
I am not particularly glad to admit that Wikipedia has a more correct (in theological terms) stand on the Orthodox Church [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Orthodox_Churches].
 
There we see that we have churches in full communion, and others - not in communion. The autonomous churches are listed below its mother church. How simple and yet profoundly correct. Profoundly correct in the sense that it is Christ Who is the measure of the Church, and the unity of the [[One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church]] is found in the [[full communion]] with the Body and Blood of Christ. Not in an inter-orthodox meeting. Unless that meeting is the Liturgy.
 
That is why we seek evidence for the Unity of the Church in the diptychs - which primarily have Liturgical function. It is in the Liturgy that the Churches find "recognition", thus the criteria is the [[full communion]].
 
I have no enthusiasm to edit this or other articles that state something different, as my edits could just be reverted, so I'm only pointing this out and leaving the others to decide what is published at the end.
 
[[User:K.panteleimon|K.panteleimon]] 09:19, June 13, 2009 (UTC)
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