==Protection==
This article has been reverted and protected. Please place all suggested changes on this Talk page, where sysops can incorporate them into the article. — by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 13:32, March 6, 2008 (PST)
: You reverting before protection reveal your siding with one side in the dispute. Such a behavior is inappropriate for a sysop. Current version of the article is not acceptable for the following reasons:
# No valid academic reasons for denouncing the article of the Italian magazine were provided. All reasoning mentioned were private in nature, and do not represent valid academic basis for removal.
# Article of Mr. Leithart appears to be twofold:
## Study of the work of J.Z.
## Implied criticism as it points to differences between theologies of Prof. Lossky and J.Z. Both aspects of the article should be mentioned on the page. How? I am open to suggestions. I have tried two approaches, and both were rejected by the other party. I will let the other party propose the way of mentioning the second aspect...
# There is a need for minor change on the sentence that is trying to minimize the criticisms with inappropriate wording that is POV in nature.
[[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 05:29, March 7, 2008 (PST)
: Just as a note: What behavior is "inappropriate for a sysop" will be determined by the administration, ultimately headed up by [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]]. In general, though, [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]]'s long-standing reputation on OrthodoxWiki is, as yet, unimpeachable. You would be wise not to cast yourself in an adversarial light regarding him or the other sysops. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 07:17, March 14, 2008 (PDT)
There is no implied criticism in Pastor Leithart's article. There are not two "aspects." Lossky is not the standard for evaluating all other work. There have been a number of important 20th century Orthodox theologians, and they disagreed on some matters -- Lossky is different from Staniloae, who is different from Florovsky, who is different from Romanides, etc. All of these men were fully Orthodox and well-regarded. The kind of bizarre logic being used by Cebactokpatop would rate a flunking grade in my introduction to logic class, and it wouldn't pass muster for a peer-reviewed, academic journal. I'm thinking of both his attempt to spin a favorable article into a critical one (see my analogy about a book promoting Nicene orthodoxy) and his simplistic syllogistic reasoning -- 1. Lossky is THE synthesis of Orthodox patristic theology. 2. Zizioulas disagrees with Lossky about something. Therefore, 3. Zizioulas is heterodox. I can't decide which is worse -- the specious logic or the attempt to dress it up as somehow "academic." --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 05:41, March 7, 2008 (PST)
: Your attitude does not comply with academic attire. Your rhetoric either. Your focus on how to discredit my unworthy individual (person), instead on the subject of our dispute, reveals weakness in your argument. Your analogy you keep repeating is good for laughter only. My simplistic reasoning goes hand in hand with the reasoning Savior used in order to make his teaching so simple that even uneducated fishermen could understand him. And I do not have to pass muster for any academic journal. Simplicism I chose to use can not be accepted by Pharisees. They were always “too high” for simple fishermen. One thing I will teach you here... Florovsky made his mistakes. Staniloae too. Lossky too. All man made mistakes, but One. The difference between acceptance and rejection in the Church is not in the mistakes they have made, but in the overall harm those mistakes made in the Church. When mistakes amount to the level where man in question starts braking Church' canons, we know that he had went ashtray, without need to read any of his writings.
: I would propose you to start putting down valid academic reasons for your arguments rather than your personal opinion on what grade certain logic would have in your introductory classes.
: [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 11:34, March 7, 2008 (PST)
Just a reminder that we are each approaching [[Forgiveness Sunday]]. Another difference from Wikipedia is that '''users of OrthodoxWiki are definitely urged to pray for one another''', especially in difficult and frustrating circumstances. Rather than attempt to delve into theology myself, or into the discussion of this page, in looking through some of the articles related to Metr. John's writings, I found some links which do not seem to be currently included in the article. I will include them here so that they may be considered for appropriate inclusion at a later time.
*[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3664/is_200210/ai_n9126351 Trinitarian Theology, West and East: Karl Barth, the Cappadocian Fathers, and John Zizioulas] by Douglas Farrow
*[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2065/is_1_56/ai_n5999103 John D. Zizioulas, Eucharist, Bishop, Church: the Unity of the Church in the Divine Eucharist and the Bishop during the First Three Centuries] by Andrew Louth
*[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2065/is_n1_v46/ai_14935606 The Eucharist Makes the Church: Henri de Lubac and John Zizioulas in Dialogue. - book reviews] by Mark E. Chapman
*[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3664/is_200107/ai_n9002866 Living Orthodoxy in the Modern World: Orthodox Christianity and Society] by John Chryssavgis
*[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2065/is_n3_v48/ai_18709948 Sacrament of Salvation: An Introduction to Eucharistic Ecclesiology. - book reviews] by Nathan D. Wilson
Additionally, I suggest that involved parties either take a break from editing on OrthodoxWiki, or focus their attentions on improving other articles. —[[User:Magda|<b>magda</b>]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 12:23, March 7, 2008 (PST)
: <u>Let's see... </u>
: 1. Anglican
: 2. Orthodox?
: 3. Lutheran
: 4. Buddy who reports to the same chief - well known braker of the Church canons.
: 5. Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
: From this list we can see who praises his work. :)
: [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 11:42, March 13, 2008 (PDT)
Fr Andrew Louth, in addition to being a distinguished patristics scholar, is a Russian Orthodox priest. When moderators are ready to modify the article, I wish to recommend adding a reply to the Turcescu article. It is Aristotle Papanikolaou, "Is John Zizioulas an Existentialist in Disguise? Response to Lucian Turcescu" in ''Modern Theology'' 20:4 (October 2004), 601-607. It argues that Metropolitan John's theology is consistent with that of the Fathers, and that Turescu has missed the mark by attacking Metrop. John on how to read St Gregory of Nyssa, whom the latter rarely cites. Instead, Metrop. John has relied more clearly on St Gregory the Theologian. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 14:41, March 13, 2008 (PDT)
:''Vote for INCLUSION''. These are academic sources - I know that Frs Andrew Louth and John Chryssavgis are both highly qualified to speak academically (Fr Andrew, if memory recalls, is an Oxford professor; Fr John, an Oxford grad., lectures/ed at Holy Cross, and was the Sub-Dean at St Andrew's, Sydney). I would do it myself if I weren't, much to my distaste, named as being one of the 'parties' in this discussion... — by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 14:47, March 13, 2008 (PDT)
Fr Andrew is currently a professor at Durham, but did teach at London and Oxford. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 19:32, March 13, 2008 (PDT)
Oh sure... you will find here and there some Orthodox who fell into the pit, dug up by the man in question. Let’s add to the above list Mr. Leithart, yet another Protestant, who, you said, is praising his work...
'''One question for you folks'''... I was trying to find biography of J.Z. with the details like when he became monk, in which monastery has he served, when ordained to deaconate, priesthood and finally to episcopate... and failed. Do you know where that information can be found?
[[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 05:54, March 14, 2008 (PDT)
: A word of caution to [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]]: It seems pretty clear that you have an agenda to push with regard to Metr. John. In our experience on OrthodoxWiki, agendas are [[OrthodoxWiki:Frequently Asked Questions#What about controversial material and original research.3F|bad for the encyclopedia]]. The tone of your language, particularly the sarcasm and the seeming need that you have to discredit Metr. John, all seem to point in the agenda direction.
: The facts are that Metr. John is '''not''' generally regarded in Orthodox circles as holding heretical views. (Indeed, he is very highly regarded.) Now, whether he is a heretic or not is subject to the appropriate authorities (which OrthodoxWiki and its editors, including you, are not). In any event, if criticism of him is to be mentioned, it should only be as an ancillary portion of this article, since it really is only a minority, non-mainstream opinion.
: [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]], if you persist in the approach you've taken thus far on OrthodoxWiki to this article, I am afraid you will find yourself frustrated, since the management simply isn't going to give it free rein. I hope that's clear. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 06:38, March 14, 2008 (PDT)
:: Agenda? Here you can read about the agenda of the man you are defending: [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=interview&div=57 Metropolitan John of Pergamon is responsible for derailing Orthodox-Roman Catholic dialogue]
:: And here: [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=interview&div=52 We respect the Patriarch of Constantinople as the first in honor, but we are against viewing him as ‘Pope of the East’]
:: Looks like you do not know where can be found real biography of the J.Z. Let's wait. Someone else may be able to help finding it.
:: [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 06:49, March 14, 2008 (PDT)
::: That you think any of us are "defending" him is telling. That you cite the usual barbs from the Moscow Patriarchate (in its ongoing rivalry with Constantinople) is also telling (and hardly encyclopedic for this article). I also wonder why it is you insist on calling him "J.Z."
::: In any event, I'm not sure what we're "waiting" for. Biographical information would certainly be welcome in this article, since it's decidedly short on it. And, yes, I do not know offhand where such information may be found. I hardly have a reference library handy in my office.
::: In any event, consider yourself cautioned. Please take a different approach with this article. It may actually be of benefit if you were to work on some other articles instead, ones about which you may not have such strong personal feelings. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 07:13, March 14, 2008 (PDT)
:::: Barbs? Heheheh... Moscow Patriarchate where Orthodoxy flourishes has to "barb", while Constantinople Patriarchate where Orthodoxy steadily keeps shrinking, has to go and seek help from US against Turkish authorities... I often wonder who finances their affairs and frequent travels around the globe when they have close to none any flock in that see. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 12:15, March 14, 2008 (PDT)
== Revising the bibliography ==
