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→Real Presence
:::I hope this isn't too hair-splitting. It seems that the emphasis is in the act of the Eucharist, but not on the elements, yet I hope to be accurate in my mortal understanding. [[User:Willibald|Willibald]] 18:43, February 5, 2007 (PST)
I would say that #2 is definitely wrong, as it gives the impression that there is a chemical change into flesh meat and red and white corpuscles. Even the Roman Catholic Church, despite some popular but mistaken beliefs, does not teach that. Aquinas is explicit about this. Moreover, using the word 'substance' introduces an unnecessary distinction (between substance and accidents) and association (with Roman notions of transubstantiation using Aristotelian terminology). #1 makes me a little uneasy for a couple of reasons. First, saying that Christ 'resides in the elements' makes it sound like a localized presence, such that when the priest lifts the chalice he is lifting Christ (which Aquinas is right to reject). Second, while I understand saying 'after the Epiklesis' is affirming the Eastern Orthodox emphasis upon the epiklesis, this could be read as denying the Real Presence in a liturgy that does not use an ''epiklesis''. This is an untenable view since a consecratory epiklesis was never universal in the Church -- I am thinking here in particular of the Liturgy of Addai and Mari. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 07:38, February 6, 2007 (PST)
:Thank you. This is very good. I also received an excellent reply by email with some general references and some terms to study. [[User:Willibald|Willibald]] 10:48, February 22, 2007 (PST)
"Could somebody write a good article on exactly what the Could somebody write a good article on exactly what the Real Presence is according to Orthodoxy? Willibald 21:48, August 16, 2006"
My understanding of the Real Presence according to Orthodoxy is as follows:
First af all Jesus Christ is perfect God and perfect Man. As God, He is the second Person or hypostasis of trinitarian God, the Logos, that is God's Wisdom, Logic, Reason, Reasoning or Spirit of Son. As perfect Man, He has perfect human Soul and perfect human Body (Flesh and Blood). As every man's body contains (includes) his soul, Jesus Body contains (includes) His Logos and His human Soul. Holy Gifts after trasforming are, supernaturaly, Jesus Body and Blood, physically remain bread and wine. How somebody gets Logos in reality? By fear of God: (Psalm 110:10, in hebrew bible 111:10, Proverbs 1:7, 9:10, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 1:14). I can only give an example, who has Logos: somebody (man or woman) offers, in metaphorical or allegorical language, that is mysteriously, to a christian, true information values for a christian. If the christian accepts it, he/she has Logos. In this case Holy Spirit speaks through that man or woman and he(she) is, in this case, God's angel or true Priest. When somebody gets Logos in his(her) every day life and then eats (gets) Jesus Body and Blood they are united with Logos and Jesus Christ is formated inside christian. Otherwise, if he/she has no Logos, Jesus Body and Blood become (supernatural) fire and burn him/her. [[user talk: catechumen]] Aug. 27, 2010.
==Christian Eucharist = Jewish Passover? ==
I am not trying to drive a wedge between Pascha and the Eucharist. They are not unrelated. However, I would stand by my claim that the article is misleading on this point. The Last Supper was unlikely to have been a Passover meal. The eucharistic texts of the early Church make it clear that they did not derive from seder texts and that Passover imagery wasn't used. Thus to claim, as this article does, that the Eucharist is simly the seder "transformed" and that the themes of the seder are therefore the themes of the Eucharist is misleading, at best. By idnetifying a minor theme as a major, even exclusive one, it distorts the actual history and practice of the Church's Eucharist. I think there is more to be found in the Jewish Day of Atonement than in the Passover for understanding our Lord's death and resurrection, as well as the mystery of the Eucharist. My point here is related to the one I made regarding the symbolism of the Little Entrance, and what Fr John had to say on that discussion page about [[NPOV]].
BTW, I don't believe that the use of the "Christ our Passover" at the fraction of the 1979 Episcopal ''Book of Common Prayer'' represents ancient pratice; it certainly isn't known from the first several centuries that I am talking about. -- Fr Lev
== Real Presence ==
"Could somebody write a good article on exactly what the Could somebody write a good article on exactly what the Real Presence is according to Orthodoxy? Willibald 21:48, August 16, 2006"
My understanding of the Real Presence according to Orthodoxy is as follows:
First af all Jesus Christ is perfect God and perfect Man. As God, He is the second Person or hypostasis of trinitarian God, the Logos, that is God's Wisdom, Logic, Reason, Reasoning or Spirit of Son. As perfect Man, He has perfect human Soul and perfect human Body (Flesh and Blood). As every man's body contains (includes) his soul, Jesus Body contains (includes) His Logos and His human Soul. Holy Gifts after trasforming are, supernaturaly, Jesus Body and Blood, physically remain bread and wine. How somebody gets Logos in reality? By fear of God: (Psalm 110:10, in hebrew bible 111:10, Proverbs 1:7, 9:10, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 1:14). I can only give an example, who has Logos: somebody (man or woman) offers, in metaphorical or allegorical language, that is mysteriously, to a christian, true information values for a christian. If the christian accepts it, he/she has Logos. In this case Holy Spirit speaks through that man or woman and he(she) is, in this case, God's angel or true Priest. When somebody gets Logos in his(her) every day life and then eats (gets) Jesus Body and Blood they are united with Logos and Jesus Christ is formated inside christian. Otherwise, if he/she has no Logos, Jesus Body and Blood become (supernatural) fire and burn him/her. [[user talk: catechumen]] Aug. 27, 2010.
