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:I should add, '''I'm not sure a missal that is not celebrated anywhere in Orthodoxy''' (with the possible exception of a spare room in one person's sister's apartment) '''is even appropriate to an article on the Western Rite and its "Congregations."''' Since I was [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism falsely accused] of [[OrthodoxWiki:Vandalism|"vandalism"]] for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own. But frankly, Orthodox priests use all sorts of things for their private prayers; the moderators may want to consider whether one person's private prayers are material to the page at all. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:40, February 15, 2009 (UTC)
Fr Aidan's contribution to Western Rite Orthodoxy has been substantial, and while it is controversial to some, it shouldn't be ignored. His work is far from simply "celebrated in a room in his sister's house", and as I can't even see the link you have put up, I see no real reason to believe this bizzare claim about the picture. It should be noted that Fr Aidan's work is occasionally consulted in the Eastern Archdiocese, and the widely popular "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" is considered an invaluable resource by many. As one who has access to both translations, I see value in both of them.
For the record there is no such thing as a "Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy". Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts. I also found a better picture for "congregations" to use.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:46, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
== Images under "Congregations" 2==
::Joseph, it seems your comments meet the OrthodoxWiki definition of [http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior Uncivil Behavior] in full: ''ad hominem'' name-calling, imputing motives, and attributing an emotional state/ulterior motive to others. It certainly does not promote communication.
::You added a nice bit about Villate; I see no reason to take that out. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:37, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
I would ascribe nothing but malice to spreading an unsubstantiated claim of theft even after repeated attempts at theftcorrection. (http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/07/orthodox-prayers-of-old-england-buyers.html)
You seem to assume that I myself am a partisan of the OSRM in question. I am not. Thus I did not get involved until your behavior seemed motivated by spite.
Unless you can show that what I added was NOT factually correct, please, just stop.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:01, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
A couple of other points--
1) A major difference between the Milan texts and others is the inclusion of sequences and other parts of the texts that make a major difference in the size of the liturgy. Because of this, a simple Gregorian Mass and Sarum are very different. The ordinary is almost the same across the board. Thus, the liturgy itself would appear as that of a Milan Synod liturgy.
2) I wasn't calling you Torquemada; I meant that again the "Inquisition" mindset was returning, and that this was an argument against using post-schism services.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:23, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
Gentlemen: Take a deep breath. Enhance your calm. Cease inspiring the administration to just delete every WR article and put a permanent ban on their re-creation.
Thanks! :)
BTW, Mr. Andersen's weblog was indeed used as a source for the original formation of this article (I wrote it). Whether it remains a source or not depends on the current content. OW articles are never set in stone, so their sources can't be, either. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 15:16, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
::Perhaps as a moderator and original author you could peruse the article as it stands and verify that Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's blog remains a source? (I think it obviously does, but one read would verify it.) Joseph's argument, as far as I can tell, is that the blog should not be listed as a source because he (Joseph) has not been invited to participate in it.
::Otherwise, the matter is simply one of verifiable facts vs. speculation. Generally articles are ill served by replacing sourced statements with unsourced statements and matters that are off-topic.
::I'm not sure anything I've done has shown anything other than calm, good form, and attention to fact/source. '''There is, however, a personal slander of me on this page''' (concerning my blog); as such, I should either answer it or ask that it be deleted. I think the latter would be most appropriate. Please advise.
--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:13, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
I was not the first to make the complaint, though I noted this, this time around, for the same reason: Information which can only be gained through personal access should not be allowed. If we cannot gain access through a library nor even an archeological dig I question its value. Anything could be cited. Can you follow that logic?
As for just following 'good sound form', you realize your contributions can be tracked, right?
And as for the "Torquemada" issue, as anyone can see on recentchanges, I've been given a second warning.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:28, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
::I was referring to this slander: "I would ascribe nothing but malice to spreading an unsubstantiated claim of theft even after repeated attempts at correction. (http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/07/orthodox-prayers-of-old-england-buyers.html)." This is off-topic, personal, and wrong. As such, it should be deleted.
::The fact that a blog is "closed" does not mean it did not serve as a source for this article. And Subdn. Benjamin Andersen has always been good about adding people who wish to see his blog, provided he doesn't feel they are acting in bad faith. As for your comparison: we cannot lay our hands on, for instance, private correspondence by historical figures, but historians can -- and they can write about what they see. That does not change the fact that the correspondence serves as a source of their biographies.
::I had not seen the second warning. Section deleted. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:38, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
You are correct. It *is* personal. Which is why I put it up. I believe your behavior is not based on doing right by the wiki but exacting a continued attack on Father Aidan Keller. (More proof can be found by searching "Keller" on the blog.) In that particular case, I note that you ignored attempts at factual correction (the customer received his book) because at least two attempts were my own. I thought what was done was unethical, and I stand by that. I also have the verbal testimony of Bp Jerome (Shaw) concerning your actions towards his reception in ROCOR.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:47, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
As for why that is relevant, see here: [http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Frequently_Asked_Questions#But_I.27m_here_to_bring_you_The_Truth.21]
This is simply not the place to continue an argument with Fr Aidan Keller (or about him) on these subjects. If you want to try to have me banned at this point go ahead. But now I am not ascribing a motive. I put up a link. That it *appears* that you have *personal issues* with Fr Aidan is obvious to any objective reader, thus making the motivations behind your deletions suspect.
I put up all sorts of things "I don't like" on this Wiki-- because they are verifiable facts. Where I don't cite, I delete. Simple. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 19:09, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
: From the point of view of an (occasional) academic writer, sources that are not publicly accessible are indeed not to be relied on overmuch. A historian might get access to archival material, but one might presume that any historian could probably (given the right credentials) also get such access.
: I'm not really sure why it is Mr. Andersen chose to make his weblog private, but it does put anything based on his writing in the position of needing to be revised, since readers and editors won't have the option of checking the research.
: Anyway, I'm not sure that there's anything of exclusive value on his weblog that can't be sourced elsewhere. And really, why should anyone care where material is cited from, so long as the content itself is present? There seems to be a bit of a sectarian approach in your edits, [[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]]. I encourage you to set aside whatever prejudices for or against certain sources you might have and simply help to make sure that factual content is being presented and cited from reputable, third-party sources. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 22:11, February 16, 2009 (UTC)