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→Et tu Papadeas?
::Then, if you look at the major English translations, you have Nassar, Hapgood, Ware, Boston, Jordanville, and St. John of Kronstadt Press, all using Matins. In fact, I am unaware of any widely used Orthodox English text that uses "Orthros". I know what "Orthros" is, but honestly, I think far more people don't... and at least Matins rings a bell with most. But while this is my opinion, I am partly just yanking your chain here. :) I can live with "Orthros". :) [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 17:11, April 16, 2007 (PDT)
:::FWIW, my vote is Matins. I won't push for it too hard though :-). — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit§ion=new talk])
== Et tu Papadeas? ==
I keep my copy of the ever popular Greek/English text for Holy Week, [http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=HOLY340 Holy Week and Easter Services in the Orthodox Church], by Fr. George Papadeas at Church, and so I checked it this weekend. It uses Matins too. [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 13:53, April 22, 2007 (PDT)
: Is the sarcastic header really necessary? Anyway, we hashed this out long ago, and ''Orthros'' is what was decided. (I'm almost amusingly surprised you'd prefer to let the Latins tell us what to call our services!) If, as you say, you can live with ''Orthros'', please feel free to begin doing so without the sarcastic jabs. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</small> 18:48, April 22, 2007 (PDT)
::I meant it to be humorous, not sarcastic. It just means "You too Papadeas?" I wasn't able to check this when noting the major translations that I mentioned previously, and was actually expecting that this text would be the exception, and use Orthros, since it is after all a Greek/English text. I was surprised that it too followed the pattern of all the other standard texts in English, and I thought it was worth noting. "Matins" is a pre-schism Orthodox term, and this is the term used in English for this service. I said I could live with Orthros, and I can and will... I didn't say I would prefer to live with it. I don't know what the decision making process is with those in charge of the web site. I just thought that this was another bit of information worth considering. I'll let it drop now.[[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 19:07, April 22, 2007 (PDT)
::: "Et tu...?" is a quote from ''Julius Caesar'', being Caesar's dying words referring to the betrayal by Brutus. It is used colloquially to refer to a betrayal from the least likely source. That's why I took this as being something of a jab. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</small> 11:40, April 24, 2007 (PDT)
::::This is one Latin phrase that just about everyone knows, and I did have the unlikely source part of it in mind, but since Papadeas was agreeing with me, I didn't think anyone would take it quite as far as you did. I honestly did not mean to offend. I apologize for having done so. [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 13:15, April 24, 2007 (PDT)
::::: It's okay. Let's just say that my internal hermeneutical engine was influenced at the moment to interpret things in darker possible shades. Forgive me. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</small> 14:26, April 24, 2007 (PDT)
:Hey Guys. Just a note of pause to say that, as you know, it's important to be cautious in internet correspondence, since writing online lacks most of the non-verbal clues we rely on in interpersonal communication. This goes both ways -- e.g. in making statements which can be construed as sarcastic, and in assuming a particular meaning when there are other possibilities.
:Second, this is a difficult one. There seems to be a substantial difference for "feel" here - not just between Frs. John and Andrew, but between Pistevo, Me, and Fr. John on the one hand and Fr. Andrew on the other. I believe these differences aren't just personal opinion but are rooted in the sensibilities of different Orthodox communities in America. It's hard to know the best way to arbitrate between these.
:In terms of the Style manual, I see things here the same way Pistevo does. Yes, we prefer Greek to Slavonic usage, but it does seem that Matins is the commonly accepted English term. In fact, in my mind - rightly or wrongly - "Orthros" is a "marked" subterm for Matins, denoting particularly Greek usage. (I don't think I've ever heard it referred to an Orthros in the OCA, except when a Greek happened to be chanting.) :The Google stats are interesting here, too - thanks for the research. Perhaps we need to institute some kind of more formal voting/arbitration policy, but for now, I'm going to just make the decision (as the [[w:BDFL|bdfl]]) to change the title to Matins. I hope this doesn't trouble anyone too much! — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit§ion=new talk])
:: I think you're wrong, but okay. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</small> 11:40, April 24, 2007 (PDT)
== Deacon's and Litanies at Matins ==
A question for Fr. Andrew on his recent corrections. I don't have my books with me, but I think you are correct about the short litany after the royal psalms, before the 6 psalms being done by the priest only -- and I suspect that this is true regardless of Byzantine or Slavic variations. However, some of the other litanies you also tagged as being done by the deacon only in some liturgical practices. Are you sure about that? I know in Russian practice, this is not the case. And the times I served in Greek parishes as a deacon, they were done by the deacon just as in Russian practice. [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 13:21, April 24, 2007 (PDT)
: I can't speak to the standard Greek practice on those litanies (not having any books with me), but I can say that the Antiochian ''Liturgikon'' has all the litanies before the Gospel sequence being done by the priest. Anyway, perhaps the wording should be "the deacon (or in some traditions, the priest)." (I also know that one Antiochian bishop in the US has instructed that deacons are to do those litanies.)
: I'm not sure what the actual Greek practice is, not having their ''Liturgikon'' on hand, but it may also be the case that deacons are "allowed" to do them, despite it not being explicitly their practice. That is of course assuming that their practice is officially the same as what I '''can''' document from the Antiochian ''Liturgikon''. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</small> 14:23, April 24, 2007 (PDT)
