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Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow

12,957 bytes added, 11:15, August 26, 2008
ROCOR English Liturgy NOT St. Tikhon's
SOME changes were implemented*''[[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow/Archive 1a|Archive 1a]] and [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow/Archive 1b|Archive 1b]]''.
Only some of ==Adjudication==At 80kb, I'm fairly sure that this is the recommendations made by single longest Talk page on OW, probably even including those with archivals - so big that it needed to pages to archive it. It's the Moscow Commission were made by kind of thing that I instinctively congratulate, purely on the Antiochians basis of perseverance - all 80,000 characters and ROCORsix months of it. This shouldn't be controversial That said, this does need to stop. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:22, February 12, 2008 (PST)
:The use of "some" So, my adjudication on the matter - the Observations aren't binding (they're ''observations''), so it is misleading; all recommendations for thoroughly irrelevant whether they were followed to the liturgy letter (and hoursindeed, 'to the letter' gives quite a bit of scope to the diocesan) were made by . This is something that both Antioch 'sides' can accept, since one advanced this idea to begin with and ROCOR the other highlighted that the diocesan needed to implement them properly. The way the article currently is (and Alexandria, and MoscowI did edit it in the last couple of days)reflects this.
:Certain [i]vagantes[/i] use this language Secondly, I'm not convinced that the SASB is authorised in the same way as the OM is authorised - the definite and indefinite articles clearly have an important part to cast aspersions on play in the Liturgy of St. TikhonEnglish language, claiming it is invalid, because it did not implement all and only the recommendations of latter has the 1904 Observations.definite article..which is false. - [[User: Willibrord]]
Regarding citations, the OM/SASB issue should be settled with a citation (e.g. Andersen, B., (2006). ''Lengthy Thesis: Title with Much Capitalisation that Rivals The Thesis' Word Count''. Crestwood, New York: Publisher), but I strongly encourage that the critical part of this thesis be put online. The critical part about this thesis is what the Vicar-General says - if there's only one authorised text according to him, then that's it - if that wasn't the case, then in the same way that the Archbishop has full authority to authorise texts, he also has full authority to un-deputise people to speak on his behalf. At a minimum, all bibliographical details need to be given. In addition, whether there is a conflict of interest regarding the thesis is not an issue, for the simple reason that it was submitted to an impartial marker. One would not claim a conflict of interest if someone said 'I'm innocent' after the court case was thrown out. On another note, however, Occidentalis cannot be used as a source, for the simple reason that it is a "blog [that] is open to invited readers only".
Only SOME of In short, I hold that the changes were made; that article, as it stands, is a simple factcorrect. I am not a vagante nor have I claimed 'm archiving the liturgy in question is "invalid," but one need not make false claims such as rest of the one that ALL of page. For any further complaints about the recommendations were adoptedarticle, <strike>click on my complaints link</strike> feel free to state this on this page or find another sysop. --&mdash; by [[User:Fr LevPistevo|Fr Lev<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] 17<sup>''[[User talk:34, February 13, 2008 (PST) Before Willbrord changes my edits again, perhaps he could read the Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]''Observations'' and compare them to the liturgy. --[[Usertalk:Fr LevPistevo/dev/null|Fr Lev<font color="red">complaints</font>]] 07''</sup> at 23:0701, February 14August 8, 2008 (PSTUTC)
From what Sorry-- I recall from having read about didn't notice that this some time ago, the ''Observations'' noted the inadequate language of sacrifice in the oblation of the anaphora, but nothing was changeda final edit. One of their biggest complaints was the compromising language of the Prayer Book. The classic example of I will be quiet on this is in the words for administering communion. The "Catholic" 1549 BCP had "The Body of our Lord Jesus Christone, which is given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life." The "Protestant" 1552 replaced these words with "Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving." The Elizabethan compromise book of 1559 intended wasn't trying to allow Catholic- and Protestant-minded Anglicans simply combined the two sets of words. This compromise language is maintained in the Tikhon text. The penultimate paragraph of wake the ''Observations'' has some choice words about this compromise approachdead or anything. I also recall that the ''Observations'' wanted a great deal more "glorification and invocation" of the Saints, which became only a reference in the intercessions to "blessed Mary and all Thy Saintsremoving previous comment." --[[User:Fr LevJosephSuaiden|Fr LevJosephSuaiden]] 0802:2732, February 14August 9, 2008 (PSTUTC)
== Differences between Deleting my comment as I hope the Orthodox Missal and the St Andrew's Service Book ==discussion on this page is done.
To repeat :''Moved from Archive 1b to main Talk page by [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]]'' ::Well, it ''is'' a talk page, so if there is something that needs saying, it should be said. The above was simply my adjudication on the matter. &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 12:35, August 10, 2008 (UTC) :Just an addendum to my adjudication - I feel that having heard the arguments for the last six months, there's not much new that can be said. My default position of not responding should be taken as precisely that, ''not'' as support for (or against) a new position. Perhaps another sysop can see something that I do not. &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 23:05, August 11, 2008 (UTC) ==SASB, Part II== Can I please understand, as an impartial observer, HOW this book isn't authorized, when it has a blessing from the Ruling Bishop to be used by clergy and laity (p.2), claims to include the authorized liturgies and devotions of the AWRV, has undergone a change in the name but not the text in the "Western Rite Service Book" and is stocked by Western rite Vicariate Parishes not an official book? Thanks.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:08, August 24, 2008 (UTC) :Pistevo is an impartial observer, and the detailed explanation has been spelled out in the archives 1a and 1b. I see no need to rehash the entire thing again. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:51, August 24, 2008 (UTC) Yes, but all he said was "Sdn Benjamin's thesis would be an example of citable material, and my viewpoint is that the interviews with Fr Paul Schneirla would suffice. I would strongly encourage the posting of, or linking to, this thesis online (right now, we can say 'according to Andersen, 2006', but I'm not sure how much further we can go). However, the links to the Occidentalis blog can be considered 'privileged' - it appears that it's now a closed blog." That certainly doesn't sound like he agrees with two pages of mostly your explanation, just that a thesis paper can be cited as a question source. He also says the interviews would suffice, but I posted have no understanding where to access these interviews. I also find it odd that a Western-rite book put out by the Archdiocese *directly*, as has been noted on another pageWiki, would require Fr Paul's permission to exist as "approved".--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 05: since Willbrord 58, August 26, 2008 (UTC) == SASB Authorized == The main article has made a point link to a download of the SASB. Here is the letter from Metropolitan PHILIP: "1996 The First Edition of the St. Andrew Service Book was approved for use by the Western Rite Congregations of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America in 1989. This, the Second Edition, improved in format and expanded in content, will be welcomed by the clergy and laity of our archdiocese who worship in a tradition as ancient as the Eastern. We take this opportunity to commend and sincerely thank Archpriest Michael Keiser, the original compiler of the service book, as well as the Board of the Orthodox Christian Press, Archimandrite Michael Trigg, Fr. John Downing, and especially Mr. Karl Steinhoff, for their many hours of dedicated labor in preparing the revised edition. We pray that the attentive use of '''these authorized liturgies''' and other rites and ceremonies by the Western rite clergy and laity of our beloved Archdiocese will be the cause of a spiritual and liturgical renewal within our church in North America. + Metropolitan PHILIP Primate Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America" I fail to see any ambiguity in this letter to warrant the claim that the SASB is not authorized in the same way that the OM is. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 22:57, August 9, 2008 (UTC)--[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 22:57, August 9, 2008 (UTC) == Misreading "exclusive use" == Willibrord and Pistevo seem to misunderstand the meaning of the English sentence in Metropolitan PHILIP's letter of authorization of the OM: "These approved texts are the exclusive use of saying our Archdiocese." That says that these liturgies are ''used only by the Antiochian Archdiocese''. If one reads it as Willibrord does, then the sentence says that almost all the Antiochian '''Archdiocese''' (not the AWRV ) ''uses only these texts'', which is patently false, as most of their parishes use the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and Liturgy of St Basil. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 23:04, August 11, 2008 (UTC) == The article as it stands == The ajudication by Pistevo was that this article -- as it stands -- is correct. Despite Willibrord's claims to the contrary, the article does '''not''' take a position on how many of the recommendations/requirements of the ''Observations'' were made to the Liturgy of St Tikhon. As to the SASB, it and the OM are both listed as sources, and no statement is made about one or the other being or not being authorized by the Antiochian Archdiocese. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:25, August 22, 2008 (UTC):Pistevo's edit of this article as it stands removes reference to the SASB as equal to OM and states affirmatively, "An Incomplete Text of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is contained in the" SASB, meaning it is not authorized in the same sense as the OM (as she affirmed [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow#Adjudication above]). That should put this to rest. Incidentally, Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's SVOTS M.Div. thesis, which cites the Vicar General as a source and was praised by him ''and'' SVOTS faculty, is ''An Anglican Liturgy in the Orthodox Church: The Origins and Development of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon'' (2005). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:15, August 22, 2008 (UTC) As indicated before, the ruling Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese is a more authoritative source than a subdeacon's thesis on the point of what liturgies are authorized in the Archdiocese. The letter of the Metropolitan is quite clear that the SASB is an authorized service book. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 18:50, August 22, 2008 (UTC):The issue of authorization has been put to rest, as noted in the ajudication. The issue is dead. It's time to stop wasting bandwidth on arguments that have been decided.:Incidentally, [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b what Pistevo actually said about the ''Observations''] is: "So far, uncontested agreement on the Orthodox Missalhaving followed the Observations." As the OM is acknowledged as the official text of the Mass of St. Tikhon, this also settles that issue.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 19:12, August 22, 2008 (UTC) ==ROCOR English Liturgy NOT St. Tikhon's===The article still contains the misinformation of the ROCOR English Liturgy being 'St. Tikhon's' and . ROCOR has not authorised St. Tikhon's, nor is it in use. The link to the ROCOR English Liturgy (which I placed on that site as webmaster) contains no reference to St. Tikhon's liturgy. A comparison of the two shows their dissimiliarity: the English liturgy has no Decalogue, 'Comfortable Words', or other marks of the St. Tikhon's liturgy. The St Andrew. Tikhon's Service Bookalso does not contain the Sarum canon, the Vestry Chapel Vesting office, the preparation before the liturgy, the Cherubic Hymn, a Western epiclesis, or the Divesting office. St. Tikhon's propers are also not the Sarum propers that the English liturgy requires. That is a pretty major difference altogether. Nevermind that ROCOR WRITE clergy and their hierarchs do not refer to the English liturgy as "St. Tikhon's", nor do they wish to. --[[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 21:30, August 25, 2008 (UTC) Agreed. Please do change it. At the same time, perhaps he would be kind enough I have yet to see any other reference to specify what differences the Liturgy of St Tikhon being approved by the Churches of Moscow or Alexandria. Perhaps they have some form of an English liturgy, but there are many differences between an English usgae of the Roman rite (such as the Sarum), an Anglican liturgy (from an authorized Book of Common Prayer), and the Liturgy of St Tikhon. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 21:38, August 25, 2008 (UTC) The following still is not quite correct: "The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia has approved a service with many similarities (under the name 'The English Liturgy')." The dissimilarities are far greater. To begin with, the Ceremonial and Propers for the versions St. Tikhon's follow the Tridentine/Anglican Missal form. That of the English Liturgy follows the Sarum use. The text of the Divine Liturgy itself also heavily differs - in content, form, and origin. The most important being that the English Liturgy is of English tradition, while the St. Tikhon's follows the American/Scottish tradition. This is true to the point where the two eucharistic liturgies differ more from each other than do the Liturgy of St. Gregory from the Sarum use, or the Slavic recension from the Greek recension of the Byzantine rite. The only major similarities are that both are primarily in the English language, have used some Book of Common Prayer for source material, and depend thus on the Russian Observations of 1904-07. Which Book of Common Prayer, of course, is cause for serious differences. (Noting - I have nothing against St. Tikhon's.) So, it might be best to have a separate article for the English Liturgy. --[[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 00:35, August 26, 2008 (UTC) :...Perhaps you'd like to suggest a way of saying that ROCOR also has an Anglican-based WR Liturgy? &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 01:48, August 26, 2008 (UTC) Pistevo - The best way would be a separate page, or mention of both on a page about the Russian Observations (the common link.) However, the term 'Anglican-based' can be misleading. In the sense we use 'Anglican' we mean English - the ancient Church, and that heritage nearly two millenia old. The sense others use is 'Protestant' which we wouldn't mean at all - Anglicana is simply Latin for 'English'. The Observations, of course, suggested that any diocesan adaptation of services from a BCP would have to include restoration from older Western use ( as Simeon Bogolovsky wrote for "Edinaia Tserkov" One Church in the article "Orthodoxy and the Western Rite" published sometime after 1948 - but before the mid 1950s.) The Antiochian St. Tikhon's was done in the Antiochian Patriarchate using an American prayer book (of Scottish lineage) and why they matterused the Roman (Italian) rite for its re-catholicization. The Russian implementation by Vladyka Hilarion was different (as noted in the SCPB - Sarum base, with some items from 1549 BCP, 1718 Non-Juror liturgy, York, Gothic, ietc.e) - making it a faithful English Use Orthodox Liturgy following the Russian directives and ukazes.Of course, why the 'Book of Common Prayer' is not in use - nor adapted whole. Nor do we have an 'Orthodox Book of Common Prayer' (the OM Saint Colman Prayer Book is rather like a Western version of the Jordanville or Old Rite Prayer book - and has accompanying volumes.) --[[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 11:15, August 26, 2008 (UTC) Thank you! I am so preferable tired of these little word-games. The "English Liturgy" is based to a large degree on the BCP-- P. Ben Johnson's objections to the SHP Sarum note at least three Cranmerian liftings, which are obviously not Sarum. Fr Michael has advertised this to disaffected Anglicans as an "Orthodox version of 'the prayer book'", which in Anglican parlance can only mean the BCP.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 05:39, August 26, 2008 (UTC) == Dropping "of Moscow" == Neither the OM nor the SASB? uses "of Moscow" to modify St Tikhon in the name of the liturgy. For the same reason that "the Great" was dropped from the Liturgy of St Gregory, "of Moscow" should be dropped from the article's title here. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 0722:01, August 25, 2008 (UTC) == Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow == Hello, could someone email me the complete text of the Western Rite version of this liturgy or a link where this text is available?? Greatly appreciated! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 06:0508, February 14August 26, 2008 (PSTUTC)
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