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Talk:Orthodox Church of France

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Abusing the name of "Orthodox Church"
My understanding is that it is not the practice of OrthodoxWiki to make the kind of judgments in its articles on the use of "Church" that Gilkerie is attempting. I am thinking of, for example, the article on the Church in Ukraine. Our article lists three different bodies as an Orthodox Church of/in Ukraine, in a situation where every one of the three considers the other two to be illegitimate. I respectfully suggest that the kind of polemics that Gilkerie wishes to engage in more properly belong in an Internet chat group such as the one where he has been railing against the Church of France for awhile. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 11:46, June 9, 2007 (PDT)
 
== Precisions for fr Lev==
 
Fr, I've only produced a document. This document was accepted by Mgr Germain and his counsel, whatever the context was. You are right. Probably the name Church was allowed to ECOF by Romania. But it was forbidden then with this document. Do I judge ? Romania did. Canonical Orthodoxy in France did. I'am not telling it is right, or wrong, good or bad. IT IS, simply.
Why do I take time to write this point here ?
Just because, as you wrote again above, you are always writing that ECOF IS THE CHURCH OF FRANCE!
It's Ecof's and you're opinion. But the Orthodox Church (canonical, which you seem not to consider to be) DOES NOT CONSIDER ECOF AS A CHURCH, OR AS BEING CANONICAL.
That's why I wish to clarify facts and opinions:
 
1/ Orthodox Church does not consider ECOF as being part of it
 
2/ ECOF considers itself as being a canonical Church.
 
Is it so unfair and polemical ? It is just truth.
 
Glikerie
 
 
And you ignored the fact that Romania has indeed, contrary to what you said, accepted the Orthodox Church of France as an autonomous Church, and that every superior canonical authority it has had has referred to it as a Church. I don't dispute what Romania's official position is today, but you are just being silly to claim that it is "abusive" for the Orthodox Church of France (which is its name). You persist in trying to export French disputes and polemics into this Anglophone website. Your notion of "canonical" makes no sense to me. The situation in France, including the Church of Romania, is thoroughly uncanonical. If there is anything at all that is clear from the canons of the Church, it is the principle of one city, one bishop. In America, despite the fact that we live with the same uncanonical situation as France does, most Orthodox here at least acknowledge that the Church's life here is not lived according to the canons and at least hope for a proper resolution, i.e., the establishment of or recognition of an autocephalous American Church. One can only the same thing for France. Not everyone in the Church of Romania agrees with you about the status of Bishop Germain and the Orthodox Church of France; I hope we both live long enough to see that made public. In the meantime, as I wrote earlier, OrthodoxWiki usage supports calling a Church what it calls itself, and therefore the Orthodox Church of France will remain "The Orthodox Church of France" on OrthodoxWiki no matter how much you dislike it. For my own part, when there are irregularities in the life of any Church, I would like to see things normalized. The last decade or so has seen many Church divisions healed in America -- Russian, Serbian, and even Romanian. Those achievements have been realized by people who looked at the other as brothers, rather than as opponents. The recent reconciliation between Moscow and ROCOR was not the result of those individuals who said about the other "side" what you say about the Church of France. Lobe covers a multitude of sins. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:04, June 11, 2007 (PDT)
 
==ANSWER==
 
Who defended ECOF in 1993 ?
Ask what Mgr Adrian, Mgr Seraphim and Mgr Joseph or Mgr Daniel think...it is quite easy. Or Mgr Marc, who was a member of ECOF.
I understand you are hurted by the vision of an uncanonical ECOF and "bishop" Germain, if you are a cleric of ECOF in USA.
 
I am realy sorry, that was not my purpose.
 
I do not consider ECOF as oponent, and in France reconciliation occurs when for example priests and parishes of ECOF enter into communion with the Orthodox Church in France.
 
I persist to affirm that there is a difference in writing "ECOF is THE Church of France" and writing "ECOF considers itself as the Church of France".
 
 
And in France, there is a reality: dioceses of the Churches settled in France (members of the AEOF, Assembly of Orthodox Bishops of France, not yet a synod) building slowly but in concertation and respect the Church of France.
dioceses in communion between them, and with all national and autocephalous Churches.
 
But you are right, others entities who named themselves churches pretend to be national, autocephalous, canonical and so on: ECOF (Catholic Orthodox Church of France), Eglise Celtique, Eglise Orthodoxe des Gaules, Eglise Orthodoxe Française...etc....
But NONE OF THEM IS IN COMMUNION WITH THE ORTHODOX CHURCH (including OCA, Greek Archdiocese of USA...): isn't it true ?
Glikerie
 
The article says precisely that the Church of France is not in communion with the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates. That such a clear statement does not satisfy you indicates a clear personal animus that is out of place in a venue that seeks to be an encyclopedia. I see no reason to continue to be in conversation with you. Best wishes. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 11:37, June 11, 2007 (PDT)
 
I didn't see the new change indicating that ECOF was not recognised by the Orthodox Church. Excuse me, I am confused. Thanks to fr John. Fr Lev, I won't come back to that subject, precision added satisfy me.
Glikerie.
 
:Glad this issue was resolved. I think clarity is helpful - we don't want to cause confusion. I've tried to phrase it here (and in the [[St. Denys Theological Institute (Paris, France)|St. Denys]] article, in such a way that makes clear the irregular canonical status of the EOF and the Institute as dispassionately as possible. I'd like these articles to be free of the heightened emotion or personal invective Fr. Lev perceives, while at the same time reflects the clarity that Gilcherie desires. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])
 
==MAXIME KOVALEVSKY==
 
Independently of the canonical problem, something is missing, I think, in the presentation of the ECOF and Western Rite, the role played by Bishop Jean 's brother, Maxime, who create adaptations in French of the slavonic tones (the first ever made, again in use in many parishes in France) and of the Gregorian tones (a polyphonic adaptation).
His work is always used, even outside ECOF, in Romanian Deanry in France for instance.
He also made a synthesis of the original melodies of psaltic, slavonic, gregorian ecclesiastical music. He made books with analysis of the place of the liturgical chant in Orthodoxy(based in part on the works of father Marcel Jousse.)Glikerie
 
== About UACORO ==
 
UACORO had asked from our synod to recieved them in full comunion but it was refused. I spoke once about this situation fith Phd Nenad Milosevic, my professor of Liturgics, who participed in negotiations. I also do not know for any priest who is recieved in Church of Serbia. I am onley formiliar with case of Jean Claude Larche, French philosopher who is now member of one of our parishes. I beilive Larche is now anagnostos.--[[User:Ddpbf|Ddpbf]] 12:44, June 14, 2007 (PDT)
 
Fr Jean-Pierre Pahud and Fr Pierre-François Méan de Lausanne were received into the Serbian Church on 27 January 2006. (reference: http://www.orthodoxie.com/2006/02/rception_de_deu.html). Both serve at the Serbian parish of St Mary and St Gregory Palamas in Lausanne, Switzerland (http://www.orthodoxie.ch/directory/fr/lausanne_st_maire.htm). --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 20:57, June 14, 2007 (PDT)
 
Yes, and Father Symeon was accepted as a deacon, and father deacon Marc Geny was ordained priest for the serbian parish of Asnieres by Bishop Luka. Glikerie.
 
==Non-canonical Orthodox groups/bodies==
I think we must create a new category, "Non-canonical orthodox groups/bodies in France" inside "Orthodoxy in France", and put there this article and also "Orthodox Church of the Gauls". If not, there are a confusion about the Orthodoxy in France. Orthodoxy in France, as jurisdictions, means the canonical dioceses (part of the "orthodox communion"). For the others groups/bodies/churches we must create sub-categories, as: "Non-canonical orthodox groups/bodies in France" and "Non-chalcedonian Orthodox jurisdictions". - [[User:Inistea|Inistea]] 04:57, August 7, 2007 (PDT)
 
:Perhaps such categories could be included in the category [[:Category:Jurisdictions|Jurisdictions]]? —[[User:Magda|<b>magda</b>]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 05:17, August 7, 2007 (PDT)
 
::Well, Magda, can you propose the name of such category (I agree that is better to place it in "Jurisdictions") ? - [[User:Inistea|Inistea]] 04:09, August 8, 2007 (PDT)
 
:::I don't have any specific ideas, other than I think the name should be concise and not necessarily restricted to France. With the creation of the new category, it would be a good idea to have a clear definition in the category page of what articles should be included. —[[User:Magda|<b>magda</b>]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 07:11, August 8, 2007 (PDT)
 
::::So, personally I think to a category like "Non-canonical Orthodox churches/groups/bodies", in "Jurisdictions", including, as the name said, all the orthodox groups they call themself "orthodox churches" but witch are not part of the "orthodox communion". If not, I think we are confusing our readers. Ask also Fr John and the others admins about that. - [[User:Inistea|Inistea]] 08:21, August 8, 2007 (PDT)
 
The Orthodox Church of France is not in the same category as the Church of the Gauls or other such bodies. The Church of France has spent most of its history under an autocephalous Church and is likely to be under another one. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 06:00, August 7, 2007 (PDT)
 
:You may consider that the Orthodox Church of France (ECOF) is not in the same category as the Church of Gauls. That depends of the category we are talking about. If this sub-category is "Non-canonical orthodox churches/groups/bodies in France" inside "Juridisction", in this case TODAY both communities are in the same category (i.e. canonical situation), even if the history of this two groups is different. - [[User:Inistea|Inistea]] 09:36, August 7, 2007 (PDT)
 
 
I would recommend something like [[:Category:Non-mainstream Jurisdictions]], which thus avoids the use of ''uncanonical'' (a dubious venture, at best). Specific articles about [[Independent Orthodox churches|groups with no historical relationship with Orthodoxy]] shouldn't even be on OrthodoxWiki. &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</small> 08:53, August 8, 2007 (PDT)
 
:See further discussion at [[Talk:Western_Rite]] — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])
 
==Abusing the name of "Orthodox Church"==
In my opinion, this fellowship of religious communities (ECOF) is abusing today the name of the "Orthodox Church". They are not anymore a "church" from 15 years now, and since then this fellowship never shows a sign of repentance. On the contrary, they changed there denomination into "Orthodox Church of France" in order to grow the canonical confusion (they also buy more internet domain names "egliseorthodoxe", of course). I live in France from 2002, and nobody call them "Orthodox Church of France" here, but ECOF. Simply because this is an usurpation. In my opinion, we should give to "Orthodox Church of France" and "Orthodox Church in France" a "dezambiguisation" label. (sorry for the moment I post this comment. Is only because yesterday this article was translated in Romanian...) --[[User:Inistea|Inistea]] 00:03, April 16, 2009 (UTC)
 
The Church of France changed its name from the "Orthodox Catholic Church of France" (ECOF) to the "Orthdox Church of France (EOF). It makes no sense to claim that dropping "Catholic" was someone done to create confusion. We refer to churches by the names they give themselves. And, as there is not another church note as the "Orthodox Church of France", there is nothing to "disambiguate". --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 02:04, April 16, 2009 (UTC)
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