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Talk:Shenouda III (Gayyid) of Alexandria

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== '''Regarding His Holiness Pope Shenouda III''' ==
Please keep me in your prayers.
Above comment by [[User:Orthodoxy4everr]]. == '''Regarding His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy''' ==
What exactly is it about the recording that bothers you? The fact that His Eminence quotes our Lord Jesus Christ when he says those who are not Baptized cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Do you dare to disagree with the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ?!?!
Please explain exactly what it is that you have a problem with because I do not understand. Do you really think that Dr. Bebawi is a credible source for ANY information? Especially after he has been excommunicated from the Coptic Orthodox Church because of heretical teachings. At first he turned to the Russian Orthodox Church but he left them for the Anglican Church many years ago and I have the official document to prove it! Maybe you should try reading what His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy has to say about Dr. Bebawi rather than read what Dr. Bebawi has to say about our Church! You should read these articles before making anymore false accusations: [[1]]
I hope you will correct all the wrong information you have stated here. You are speaking against His Holiness the Pope and a Metropolitan without knowing the TRUTH! Please do some research, read both sides of the issue before you start speaking against Holy men of God! I hope you understand why this situation is really troubling me, it is because everything you are saying is a lie and you clearly have not looked at both sides of this issue and because of everything you have said, you are leading others to believe it is true. You have become a stumbling block to people seeking the truth! I hope you will make the proper corrections soon!
Above comment by [[User:Orthodoxy4everr]].
== Replies to Orthodoxy4everr ==
Your definition of theosis (above), though acceptable, is incomplete, and, I am afraid, contradicts what Pope Shenouda III wrote and said many times about the subject. It is part of the latest 'Official Church' propaganda these days to calm down the ongoing scandals within the Coptic Church, which have reached unprecendented levels during recent months (after the departure of the blessed Fr Matta El-Meskeen in June 2006), and have become a popular subject in the secular, mainstream Egyptian and Arabic newsmedia.
My question to you, dear brother in Christ: Have you read and listened ''yourself'' to what Pope Shenouda wrote and said concerning theosis? Did you, for example, listen to his recent weekly, Tuesday lectures in Arabic to Coptic seminarians in Cairo about the subject (delivered in 2007 and all published at Pope Shenouda said (and I am here translating what he said word-by-word) that 'even the word/term theosis is not acceptable, even when the claimed status of theosis is said to be reached through God's Grace'. Can you point us to any ''properly referenced'' excerpts from Pope Shenouda's writings or recorded lectures that we can access that mention what you are saying above about theosis?! Have you also read any of his "opponents'" writings about theosis? Did they ever say that theosis makes us gods, in the sense that we become fully equivalent to God almighty?! I can assure you that Fr Matta El-Meskeen, for one, has never made such a claim in any of his writings or sermons. However, it has sadly become the Coptic Church's habit these days to fabricate and falsify (and hide) "evidence" against those she doesn't like (like a 'police state'). They even confiscated copies of an Arabic translation of 'On the Incarnation of the Word' (Athanasius) translated by the Very Rev Fr Markos Dawood, because it mentioned theosis in Chapter 54, Part 3, Pg. 159 - "God became man so that man could become god" (see details at ), which contradicts what the Pope said that 'it is impossible that any of the Fathers could have ever mentioned theosis' (again, translating here what he said word-by-word) - "محال ان يكون احد الآباء نادى بذلك". And how could anyone (even if this is St Athanasius the Great) dare to contradict the Pope, who has now become infallible in the Coptic Church, chosen and installed by God and only speaking God's messages (so, in other words, if you are in disagreement with the Pope, you are automatically against God and will fall under God's wrath, as they say). If you can read Arabic, please refer to the following site for a detailed discussion of Pope Shenouda's position regarding theosis:
We can also give you a long list of concrete examples, properly attributed excerpts, and evidence from both sides of the arguments (not taken out of their context, and without twisting the truth/text to suit our ends like others do). Please also read these Arabic articles about theosis: Metropolitan George Khodr of Mount Lebanon (Eastern Orthodox) Easter sermon this year (April 2007), which includes an exegesis on theosis (caution: Anba Bishoy doesn't like Met. George Khodr and he mentioned this in his recorded talks!) - and also (written by Dr Joseph Faltas), and, if you are interested, please join us at - we have been debating these issues for a long time, and have many prominent active members/theologians like Dr Joseph M Faltas (and even many Coptic bishops and priests on board).
And theosis is just ONE, minor issue (compared to other issues) out of many other serious theological problems in the current Coptic Church teachings (not to mention the many financial and administrative issues, like selling 're-marriage permits' to divorced Copts who can afford to pay, and denying them to tens of thousands of similar cases who are poor, telling them that Christ said no divorce except for adultery - these same Bible verses have no effect when you are friend of a prominent bishop and can pay -- see the Arabic book entitled 'طلاق الاقباط' [published by دار ميريت بالقاهرة in 2006 in Cairo] by the well-known Coptic journalist, Karima Kamal, which includes well-documented cases and statistics).
Please also read: A Brief History of Medieval Western Scholastic Theology and How It Crept into the Coptic Orthodox Church (Arabic): - and (also of interest: )
As for Pope Shenouda's articles in Madares El-Ahad Magazine and El-Keraza during the 50s and 60s of the past century (he was Editor-in-Chief of both, and is still Editor-in-Chief of El-Keraza), you can easily get them from the Franciscans' Library in Cairo, which keeps a complete archive: مكتبة "معهد الآباء الفرنسيسكان للدراسات الشرقية المسيحية" بالموسكي - شارع البِنْداق- القاهرة،
We are currently scanning the series and publishing it one by one in arbible - (see also: for previously scanned and published articles in the series). Pope Kyrillos VI had to suspend and send Anba Shenouda back to the monastery for more than a year, after the latter published his famous hostile article series against Pope Kyrillos in the late sixties. In fact, Pope Kyrillos used to call El-Keraza Magazine 'El-Kazara', which in Arabic means 'dirt' or 'filth'.
The persecution of members of the clergy (priests and bishops), who either (1) are very knowledgeable, with higher degrees/doctorates in theology from Greece or Europe (cause none of the current top Coptic hierarchy has received similar education or degrees, and Pope Shenouda ordered to stop sending our students to study in Eastern Orthodox seminaries abroad in Greece and elsewhere), (2) become popular internationally/in other Churches (e.g., have books published by SVS Press, USA ;-) or among the Coptic laity because of their sermons or writings, and/or (3) dare to disagree on any matter with the current Church hierarchy, has also reached unprecedented levels during the papacy of Pope Shenouda III and his right-hand iron man, Anba Bishoy. During the past few decades, hundreds of priests, monks, and bishops have been unfairly deposed, named and shamed in the public media (through paid adverts by the Church), and not even allowed/given the chance to defend themselves. Others, though not officially deposed, suffered sustained, organised attacks against them and their reputation, with false accusations/labelling them as 'heretics' by the Coptic hierarchy in various Coptic/Church media outlets that are under the hierarchy's full control, in books and newspapers, in TV interviews (local, Arabic and international*), at conferences, and in lectures and sermons. Many died in sorrow and bitterness, like the late Bishop Gregorios, General Bishop of Coptic Orthodox Studies and Research, who also had a PhD from England and was ordained by the late Pope Kyrillos VI. (*For example, the famous interview with Metropolitan Bishoy on November 14, 2002, by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV, which was almost fully dedicated to attacking Fr Matta El-Meskeen and labelling him as heretic and traitor of the Church.)
The recorded tape of Anba Bishoy in which he mentions that '''Catholics and Protestants won't enter the Kingdom of God''' (this is an exact word-by-word translation from Arabic of what he said) and in which he also mocks two Catholic saints ('''mentioned by name''' in his tape), has been misrepresented by you in your reply above as being a tape by Anba Bishoy in which he explains how those who are not baptised will not inherit the Kingdom of God (while the tape in question has nothing to do with baptism, and doesn't even mention it-- it clearly and explicitly mentions Catholics and Protestants)! Had the tape been false, the Catholic Church in Egypt wouldn't have '''officially''' protested against it in March 2007. Please listen again to the tape if you have ever listened to it before (I hope you can understand Arabic): - It is also available in video and for downloading from the conference pages at the official Coptic Orthodox Diocese of El-Fayoum Web site ( - also mirrored in Internet Archive). Also noteworthy is the well-know fact that Metropolitan Bishoy's sister has converted to Islam and is now married to an Egyptian Muslim and they have Muslim children.
Style: We say 'is said to' because part of our policy is not to be involved in debates. It's not us (as OrthodoxWiki) who are accusing Pope Shenouda or Met. Bishoy; it's other parties involved in the conflict, hence the use of 'is said to' and 'would thus contradict'.
Yours in Christ, --arbible
P.S. See this audio recording of Pope Shenouda III about theosis dated 15 Dec 1998:
Yours in Christ, --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 05:10, May 6, 2007 (PDT)
== record by pope Shenoda III about theosis ==
في التسجيل المرفق للانبا شنوده في محاضره بتاريخ 15/12/98حول موضوع "تاليه الانسان " و يتعرض الي النقاط التالية:
1رفض مصطلح "تاليه الانسان" و اعتبار انه تشبه بالملاك الذي اشتهي ان يكون مثل الله
2 كلمه ثيؤسيس اليونانيه (theosis) لا تعني لغوياً تاليه الانسان
3 يرى قداسته ان من يقولون ب "تاله طبيعة المسيح البشريه" , ينادون بتحول الطبيعه البشريه الي الهيه كالاوطاخية
4 ان قول اثناسيوس الرسولي "صار الله انسانا لنصير الهه" ليس دقيقاً و الادق هو "لقد صار الله ابنا للانسان ليكون الانسان ابناً لله"
5 التاله يعني ان يتحول المخلوق الي خالق , و من الطبيعه البشريه الي طبيعه الهيه .
6 ان حلول الروح القدس في يوم الخمسين لم يكن اتحادا لطبيعه بشريه بطبيعه الهيه, بل كان لاعطاء مواهب .
7 ان الاب متي المسكين عندما قال ان حلول الروح القدس هو اتحاد طبيعه بشريه بطبيعه الهيه . هو حلول اقنومي
8 عندما اراد ان يقول جزء من كتاب العنصرة للاب متي المسكين .. استاذن اذان الحاضرين الطاهرة
Above comment in Arabic is by [[User:Mark.j]] presenting the content of the audio tape of Pope Shenouda about theosis.

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