thank you for all the work you've done on OrthodoxWiki - already it is a resource for Orthodox.
: Fixed! --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 21:06, 25 Feb 2005 (CST)
== Thoughts on Criticisms of the Western Rite. ==
One of the things I think was missed in the criticism section of this article was that what many find disquieting about Western Rite parishes is that most, if not all, are primarily convert parishes. In some circles there is a feeling that while the rite itself is unobjectionable, there is a danger that these parishes want to be Orthodox but not too Orthodox: they do not want to give up the comforting familiarity of their former religion and might thus come to further 'infect' the Church with other (this time unwarranted) innovations brought in from their former church. This, I think, is behind the worry about the lack of a liturgical tradition that is referenced in the main article.
== Negotiations ==
In the late 1990s, negotiations had been underway with the Church of Serbia for the Eglise to come under its jurisdiction, but NATO's bombing of Kosovo in 1999 abruptly ended those hopes, as France was then seen by the Serbians as complicit in its persecution by the West. Talks reportedly resumed in 2004.
I must say I find this paragraph a little bizarre - maybe it's my American mentality of separation of church and state, but why would church negotiations be affected by what the French government does? And why is the ''reported'' necessary? Either they did or they didn't, and if it's a maybe, another wording might be more appropriate since ''reportedly'' sounds like someone is suspicious of certain claims which are being made. (And if this is the case, the concern should be made explicit). Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]
I believe this proves all my assertions. I added them to give a more complete picture of St. Hilarion's Monastery, particularly since, as I noted, certain figures there have a disturbing background, high ambition, and have been less than honest about their background (and well as the practices, faith, and even ''Orthodoxy'' of Antioch -- but that's another post). Thank you.
Rdr. Andrew sent me some more links to the whole thread of discussion on [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy westernriteorthodoxy]. I've ''briefly'' read through your discussion together, and I venture the following comments:
#I'm amazed by the depth of discussion. I think at one point Ben said that no good history of Western Rite Orthodoxy yet exists. I'm very heartened to see so much knowledge going around and I have high hopes for this article here. I hope you folks don't give up on all of this.
#It seems to me that your strained conversation is a sad side effect of internet discourse. How quickly differences escalate into flame wars! I'm not convinced that either of you are actually wrong. Let me explain:
::Ben takes issue with Rdr. Andrew's openness to the Milan Synod and other groups which call themselves Orthodox, but are not in fact in communion with any of the ancient sees. Rdr. Andrew responds that we should not write these groups off too quickly, and gives some historical examples to back this up (e.g. the way some groups - even, e.g. the OCA - have failed at one point or another to meet the strict definition of canonicity offered by Fr. Matusiak (which I think is a good summary statement, but not a complete treatise on ecclesiastical polity).::My impression is that Rdr. Andrew is being too cautious/charitable here. I don't know the specific history of the Milan Synod, but
'''I recommend that we change it's descriptor from "Old Calendar" to something that more accurately highlights the problematic character of its claims. ''' Perhaps the best thing to do would be to provide a link to an article which goes into some of the history of the [[Milan Synod]].::In terms of ecclesiology, obviously this isn't really the place for an in-depth discussion, but I award points to both parties. Personally, I don't have much trouble holding the two perspectives in tension. It seems that most of us (in mainstream canonical Orthodox churches) can appreciate that, even if we aren't fully in communion with R.O.C.O.R. (not yet at least), they still have a claim to authenticity that's radically different from, e.g., a group like H.O.C.N.A. It is "common sense" to us to state the basic criteria of canonicity without totally excluding some groups which have become estranged for certain kinds of historical reasons (in this case, communist control of the Moscow Patriarchate).
:3. It seems to me that both of you have a lot to contribute. Again, I'm not really sure why things have escalated so quickly (maybe because it's Lent?), but I trust that we are all "eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." (Eph. 4:3) and that this can be resolved in a worthy manner.
May God bless you both, [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]
21: 17, 4 Apr 2005 ( EDT) (' '''' Honcho in Chief ' ' ''')
== Formatting and Indentions ==
I'm sure there are other Western Rite forums in existence, but I don't have my links handy. Others? Anyone? Anyone?