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Talk:Divine Liturgy

5,746 bytes added, 18:57, July 21, 2006
intinction
: Perhaps links to online copies would be best. After all, if we put one usage on OrthodoxWiki, we'd conceivably have to put them all on. :) I think most already exist in external links, anyhow. --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 18:41, 25 Jan 2005 (CST)
 
::I think we should consider a page to link to and discuss various translations of the Divine Liturgy. We could also have a place to discuss particular texts in quest and more general principles of translation. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]
==Lots of Markup leading to a "portal" article==
:Gah. Sorry, I need to pay closer attention. Those edits are me. :-/ --[[User:Basil|Basil]] 07:10, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)
 
::I did the same thing myself today :-). All the above sounds good -- the nice thing about a wiki is that almost everything is provisional! We're always growing, together. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]
== Antidoron & Prosphora ==
:: The standard Greek practice is normally to use five large loaves. That is also the Antiochian practice. For liturgies where expected attendance is low, that number may be lowered, but the norm is to use five.
:: I agree that a separate article is worth doing—be sure to link to [http://www.prosphora.org/ http://www.prosphora.org/] (and perhaps solicit the site maintainer to contribute). --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 09:20, 26 Jan 2005 (CST) :: Thanks for the inputs, the indiscriminate use of the terms antidoron/prosphora (at least in our communtity which has a Greek parish and our OCA mission) was precisely why our priest gave a short explanation of which was which. --[[User:RdrChristopher|Rdr. Chris]] 09:29, 26 Jan 2005 (CST) :I'll solicit an article from Fr. George of www.prospohora.org since he's a friend of mine from seminary. In my mind, antidoron (lit. "instead of the gifts") refers to the blessed but not consecrated bread distributed to the faithful (and sometimes others) after Communion. "Prosphora" ("offering") refers to all the bread baked, which then is brought in, used for the Lamb and commemorations, and then some of which is distributed as antidoron.  :Also, perhaps someone will correct me, but it seems that, however many loaves are used for antidoron in Greek practice, only one is used for the [[prothesis]] - i.e. the Lamb and the commemorations. Of course, we use five small loaves in Russian tradition, one for the Lamb, one for the Theotokos, one for the saints, one for the living, and one for the departed. What remains from all of those loaves of [[prosphora]] is used as [[antidoron]] (so there is no waste). If a bishop is serving, he may have his own loaves for the living and the departed. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] :: Sorry, Father, but the Byzantine practice is to use multiple loaves (at least 2) even for the proskomedia, too. :) They do all have the same seal on them, though. Whether particles are taken from all 5 or from just 2 seems to vary, though, from what I have witnessed. :: My understanding of the distinction between antidoron and prosphora is the same as yours, though—prosphora is the bread in general, from which the lamb and the antidoron are taken. References: [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01562b.htm], [http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/beginning/bread.shtml]. :: It's interesting the way y'all use ''prothesis'' and ''proskomedia'', though—the usage I'm familiar with is that the ''Proskomedia'' is the service, whereas the ''prothesis'' is the table on which that service is performed. Hmmm... I can't wait to get my ''Blackwell's Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'' in the mail. I'll consult the ''ODCC'' when I get home, too. --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 10:49, 26 Jan 2005 (CST) :Correction accepted. You can tell that I don't have much experience serving at Greek parishes :-). About the proskomeia and prothesis - I'm actually confused about this. I do usually refer to the service as "proskomedia", although I've seen it titled "Prothesis" in many service books too. Best I can tell is that they're interchangable, but it would be good to know the history of this. Someone asked me about the difference between the two terms recently, and I didn't know what to tell him. Maybe I'll ask around a little bit. There are many wells of knowledge hiding about! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] ::Just received word from on high that they are used interchangably. Now I guess the question is why?, or what's the history of that? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] ::: I'm going to type up the ''Blackwell'' article on ''prothesis'' and put it up somewhere. It's by Archimandrite Ephrem and rather thorough. Should be helpful. I'll let you know where I put once it's done. --[[User:Basil|Basil]] 11:50, 26 Jan 2005 (CST) ::: It's up on my [[User_talk:Basil|Talk page]]. --[[User:Basil|Basil]] 13:42, 26 Jan 2005 (CST) :: Any copyright issues with that? Sounds like a great resource. ::Also, just heard back from Fr. George. Things are pretty crazy with him now, but he says he'll check in later when he has a chance. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] ::: I think a single article on my User talk page for a short amount of time will probably fall neatly under fair use. I'll probably take it back down in a few days, just to be on the safe side. ::: It is a great resource. I can't speak highly enough of it. --[[User:Basil|Basil]] 13:50, 26 Jan 2005 (CST) That sounds good and reasonable to me, whatever the folks at Blackwell's would say. I'm happy to see it. == Preparation == I offered a couple of edits clarifying that the particles at the proskomedia are offered for the living and departed faithful. I also changed the bit about the priest pouring water and wine into the chalice (that's actually a diaconal action, if a deacon is serving) and noted that the warm water is added later, after the epiclesis. [[User:Dcndavid|DcnDavid]] 21:36, 15 Feb 2005 (CST) ==Anaphora==I changed this slightly because there are more than two anaphoras in contemporary use in the (Byzantine) Orthodox Church. Some do indeed celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St James. And, of course, there are the versions of the Roman and Anglican anaphoras authorized by the Church of Antioch, and the Gallican anaphora authorized by the Church of Romania. There may be more. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 22:05, February 1, 2006 (CST) ----What is the significance of intinction, combining the Eucharistic elements (4th century) and dispensing them with the spoon (9th or 10th century)if the prebyter takes them seperatly? == Western Rite == Does this article need rewording/editing in view of the Western Rite? --{{User:Pistevo/sig}} 17:27, April 2, 2006 (CDT)
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