Talk:Western Rite and Old Calendarists
An Editorial, Not an Entry
The original version of this page represents a blog entry or a Milan Synod editorial, not a Wikipage of any sort. It is factually erroneous, self-contradictory, poorly written, and violates NPV standards.
The article claims Western Rite parishes make up a "substantial portion" of Old Calendarists; in fact, "Numerically, Western-rite Old calendar communities outnumber every other jurisdiction of traditionalist Orthodox communities in the United States." If this were true, it would mean there are more Western Rite Old Calendarists than Byzantines in ROCOR, Moscow, Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Jerusalem Patriarchate, not to mention the schismatic "Greek Old Calendarists."
It then claims, "There are parishes under the Orthodox Church of France using the Old Calendar (this is not the case, according to a priest of L'ECOF, in France)." Well, which is it?
Then it falsely asserts, "some under the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia using the Sarum Rite, though how important the use of the Old Calendar is among them is the subject of debate." First, Fr. James Deschene and Fr. Anthony Nelson are Old Calendarists who use the traditional Liturgy of St. Gregory. Secondly, there is no "debate" as to the obedience of Frs. James, Anthony, Michael (of St. Petroc), Barry, nor the ROCOR faithful.
The rest of the article is a long editorial pushing an agenda: to inveigh against the canonical Western Rite. There are alleged philosophies that supposedly "color" the views of WRO. That Western Rite parishes would be reabsorbed by Rome, Canterbury, and/or Antioch "was an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion with the Antiochians." (!) There is alleged "hostility" between Old Calendarists and Antiochians (news to Fr. James and Fr. Paul Schneirla), etc., etc.
It is merely an editorial proselytizing for the Milan Synod, or at least besmirching canonical Western Rite Orthodoxy. Either way, it has no business here. I've edited it as much as the facts will support, but I don't know if the stub will support a full article or if this stub should just be deleted, probably the latter. --Willibrord 23:28, June 24, 2008 (UTC)
- Just as a note: Old Calendarist is used on this site to refer to those groups which have broken communion with the mainstream Orthodox Church primarily or initially over the question of the calendar, not those mainstream Orthodox churches who happen to use the Julian calendar and remain in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 00:22, June 25, 2008 (UTC)
- I note nearly all the same inaccuracies were restored. (It was "an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion" that AWRV parishes would be reabsorbed by the Papacy, Canterbury, and/or the Anglican Continuum? A most indefensible of many such assertions in this editorial. I wonder where one could verify how many parishes the Old Calendarists have overall (all synods), and how many are Western Rite? The assertion that there are more WR GOCs than ER GOCs seems dubious. --Willibrord 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
It is statistically correct, since I said that GOC's in the United States and Western Europe were outnumbered. That is absolutely correct, and if you don't believe me, please count the number of diaspora parishes among the GOC's. Milan's parishes in America outnumber the GOC's of Chrysostomos, Andreas, Maximos, and the Russians' Valentine's, Tikhon's, and Bartholemew's combined. Those are usually the recognized GOC's in the country, save for HOCNA, which uses inflated numbers.
Count them if you do not believe me. --JosephSuaiden 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
- Of course, not all Milan Synod groups are Western Rite. (And I am told HOCNA is not alone in inflating its numbers.) Were one to count actual WR groups in the Milan Synod, would these outnumber all the Old Calendarist churches combined (including any Old Calendarists of Romania, Bulgaria, etc., if they have churches in these territories)? If so, how might one VERIFY this? The claim seems questionable. Thanks.--Willibrord 02:59, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
I will not waste my time: however, that's exactly my point. Both the jurisdictions you mention have NO parishes in Western Europe or America. Please start counting. Thank you. --JosephSuaiden 04:18, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
There was NO editorial.
Response: 1) there IS an Old Calendar parish under L'ECOF: Paraclete Church in the US. 2) I was only referring to Old Calendarist communities, not to ROCOR (which has 2 Western Rite parishes in America) nor the AWRV. 3) The subject of debate was the fact that some Western rite communities in ROCOR have used the New Calendar. 4) I was not inveighing against anything but discussing two different mindsets. The intolerance of one has shown its ugly face here. You will not delete my work to promote your agenda. I shall remind you once, Deacon, that even among the Antiochians, patience for such abuses as promoting Anglicans as Orthodox saints grows ever thinner. For those who don't know what I am talking about? http://bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com/2008/07/king-charles-i-saint-of-awrv-part-ii.html
Trust me, even canonical Orthodox agree with me on some of these matters, because they love Orthodoxy. You don't have to be an Old Calendarist Zealot to see what you are trying to cover up is wrong.
Unless I am banned, I will put this back and continue to do so.--JosephSuaiden 19:57, July 18, 2008 (UTC)
- Don't tempt fate! :) I don't know the state of your emotions/soul/etc., but I can say that your language is getting a bit heated. Please calm it down and don't make threats.
- I honestly can't understand why it is that the articles on the WR so often seem to draw such controversy. In any event, please note that turning these articles into debate grounds will necessitate drastically reducing their content to conform to our rules on controversial topics (i.e., no original research; only reliable, third-party, published sources). If y'all don't want that, I suggest everyone find a way to work together in a calm manner. Thanks! —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 00:00, July 19, 2008 (UTC)
- On reading this article, I was confused...then I realised something. There's _very_ little in this article that has anything to do with Old Calendarists and the Western Rite. Lots to do with the philosophies of the WR, motives...but the title, as I understand it, is rather misleading, and refers to - at most - the introduction and one or two paragraphs. — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 00:12, July 19, 2008 (UTC)
- That's it, exactly. As I wrote, this is merely private opinion about WR. And OrthodoxWiki is not the place for private opinions. I've edited it, attempting to make this read more like an encyclopedia entry then a private blog. --Willibrord 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
You once again deleted the whole article. It seems your "full of anti-WR screeds" argument is gaining ground, although I must point out again that the article is about mindsets and should be subjected to further revision. However, you made clear at the outset that you don't want these words to exist at all.--JosephSuaiden 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
- I did not delete the entire article but preserved as much as could be readily verified and considered on-topic (which, I grant, was very little). The moderators have noted your opinions of the "mindsets" is not really part of the topic, and as has been noted, doesn't seem to accurately reflect anyone's thinking except the author's. Beyond that, the article erroneously claims ROCOR has only Sarum Rite WRITE parishes (there is also Christminster); the wording implies these ROCOR churches do not care about Old Calendar use (false); and seems to be stating Antioch has already determined to hand over its WR parishes to Rome, Canterbury, and the Anglican Continuum (Really? Source?). I am given to understand elsewhere you have accused OrthodoxWiki of trying to "shut down the discussion" or some-such by editing your article. But OrthodoxWiki is not a discussion forum; it's a place for uninformed readers to find verifiable facts. This entry, as you keep reposting it, may express your views, and inaccurate as I think they are, you are welcome to do express them in this country -- but continually reposting these kinds of blog-entry thoughts is inconsistent with the purpose and standards of OrthodoxWiki. I will make one final reversion and leave the rest to the moderators. (Sigh...) --Willibrord 02:59, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
Anyone can objectively look at the history of your edits and easily see you are deleting the entire article, and worse, placing a subjective commentary of one or two sentences in its place. I can prove it by dissecting it here, it's short.
Some Old Calendarists in the United States have approved the formation of Western-rite communities, though they are currently far less numerous than their counterparts in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate.
Uncertain, since we have no clear numbers of existing parishes in the vicariate. In fact, the number of Milan parishes rivals the number of those in the vicariate. However, since this isn't an article about the vicariate, but about "Western Rite and Old Calendarists", I opted not to make such a comparison except where relevant.
These parishes under the Holy Synod of Milan are former members of the Old Catholic/vagante movement.
This is simply false, since you do not know the history of many of the parishes; nor is that universally true. Nor is it relevant, since I was talking about the history of the parishes and their eventual union with the Old Calendar Church in the Milan Synod. Certainly, if you wanted to mention they were of questionable canonicity (as were many of your own parishes, since they all knew each other then) you could have done so in the article. But that would be self-defeating, I assume.
There is one American parish under the Orthodox Church of France using the Old Calendar and some under the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia using the Sarum Liturgy, The English Liturgy, and the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great. Specifically, ROCOR's Western Rite includes Christ the Savior Monastery (Hamilton, Ontario, Canada), and St. Petroc Monastery (Tasmania) and its dependencies.
We have already noted that including ROCOR has some historical value, but it is far from the only church using the old calendar. As well, the Synod banned the use (temporarily) of Western rites in 1973. So you may wish to stop treading where you know not.
I should also add that what I've commented on is in fact all you left. Exactly three sentences. You say "I did not delete the entire article but preserved as much as could be readily verified and considered on-topic (which, I grant, was very little)". Now, while it could be argued there are opinions in this piece (I respectfully disagree) I don't think any objective reader could say that there were only three "verifiable sentences", all of which, oddly, you wrote. Even more so, no objective reader could say they are on-topic. So again I am defying your "edit". Anyone who looks at the edit history sees I ignore edits on my work. But you are not acting as an editor, but a grand inquisitor. Reading the beginning of this talk, we can see the lengths travelled to justify this deletion (referring to Serbian Orthodox as "Old Calendarists", et cetera). I am leaving this up to the moderation team as well. And if you take it out again, I will again restore it. Until you deal with facts, and not try to rewrite them, I will answer you bluntly.--JosephSuaiden 04:18, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
- The ROCOR Synod did not ban Western Rite in 1973. The 'ban' came out of HTM and was told to people as having been an act of Synod. In any case, in 1975 Abp Nikon Rklitsky (contrary to HTM's psuedo-ban) received Mount Royal monastery in New York from the Moscow Patriarchate - which was supported by the Synod. It never would have happened if the Holy Synod of ROCOR had actually produced any such document. Whether ROCOR should be included at all is probably pov - as ROCOR was never part of the Old Calendarist movement (Moscow is still Old Calendar, as is ROCOR post-rapprochment - 'Old Calendarism' is more of a phenomena with those churches affected by the New Calendar.) Some Old Calendarists were inside ROCOR, but ROCOR as a whole was never Old Calendarist itself - rather, it was the keeper of the true Russian tradition (which, it so happens, includes Western Rite: "It was Western rite in 19th c. Russia!") An implication of a difference between ROCOR today and ROCOR of a few years ago is *extremely* pov - especially as the mainstream understanding that ROCOR is the same body, in continuity, and has only changed in restoring concelebration between its hierarchy. Aristibule
- That's my impression, as well. It seems to me that most of this analytical material should be elsewhere, though I'm not really sure where.
- I think that this article is a bit of personal ideology - I don't know that it accurately represents the approach of any group. It sure doesn't represent ROCOR (our Holy Synod's ukases on Western Rite do). Personally, my vote for a Sysop for WR would be someone who knew those involved with the Western Rite (AWRV, ROCOR, MP) and has access to the clergy and the archival material.I know that Fr. Michael of Saint Petroc monastery has done some editing here - he might be someone to ask (though he is often busy.) But, he does have the breadth of knowledge. Otherwise, Willibrord if pretty fair, for Byzantine rite clergy. ... back to an earlier question: why the subject attracts controversy... mostly because there are a few small groups external to the Western rite that have particular agendas, and hope to use (or abuse) Western rite towards their own goals. IF Orthodox Wiki is an encyclopedia of Orthodoxy, it should represent the accepted majority view of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy: at this point, that is the Russian Western Rite and the Antiochian Western Rite. Domination and harassment from other parties is mostly what makes us Western Rite Orthodox come here - hoping at the least to defend against (yet again) more attacks, misrepresentations, or to tie up our thinly-spread resources on controversial argumentation. Aristibule
- Aristibule has it just right. This is private opinion and does not accurately represent anyone's views. This advocacy and private opinion simply has no place on OrthodoxWiki. Incidentally, Aristibule would be a great Sysop for WR matters; he's proven his knowledge and fairness throughout. (See the discussion section of any WR article, or how he has set the record straight on William Henry Francis Brothers' legacy.) --Willibrord 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
- I'd be putting some of it in Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century or Western Rite in the Twentieth Century articles (the bits that aren't there already, anyway), but a lot of it is not universally accepted (thinking of the the 'catastrophist' and 'developmental' positions) and would make very good opinion pieces, rather than encyclopaedia articles, IMHO. I think you may be right about the WR Sysop, though... — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)
I really don't like the idea of tearing apart the article. The two schools of thought are quite common throughout every text that discusses the schism from an Orthodox perspective.
Er... well, it seemed like a good title. I was trying to explain the existence of Western Rite people in the Old Calendarists, but that might make a more confusing title.... "Philosophy of Western Rite Old Calendarism"? But then that would immediately make developmentalists mad at catastrophists... *sigh* well, I tried.
On another note I vote for Fr Lev to be a Sysop (though he punished me on this article on the French Church thing). He seems to be balanced and knows this stuff. With respect to some of the other vocal WR people (not naming names) I notice a sort of "across the board" desire to control the flow of information rather than disseminate it, which I've seen in other places. That mentality should have no place in an encyclopedia. --JosephSuaiden 00:28, July 19, 2008 (UTC)
I think perhaps a Western Rite historical thought article (or something like that) might be useful, if only because the majority of this material does not bear directly on the Old Calendarist WR in its content. (It informs what they do, to be sure, but so does the material in the Western Rite article itself, etc.)
It's fine to disseminate information, but on OrthodoxWiki, that information is to be disseminated in an encyclopedic manner, which includes proper categorization and organization but also includes describing the value judgments of various notable groups rather than advocating them.
It is true that the mainstream churches which have a WR (Antioch, Moscow) are going to be presented as the mainstream on OW, but that does not mean that every viewpoint that someone has within those churches is going to be presented as The Truth. They should be presented in descriptive, not prescriptive or advocacy terms.
Please keep in mind the policy on controversial topics and original research. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 11:35, July 19, 2008 (UTC)
Russian Orthodoxy and Western Rite
The Russian Orthodox Western Rite outside of Europe did not go to the Ukrainians, it went to ROCOR with Mount Royal monastery. The misunderstanding may center around Francis Brothers - who was an Old Catholic bishop who got consecration in the 'Living Church', and was later received by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1962 as a priest. He left Orthodoxy within a year, and began to operate as an independent Old Catholic bishop after that time. Mount Royal monastery stayed with Orthodoxy, and did not follow Brothers. Aristibule
I didn't go into that here,however Metropolitan William did not claim to be Old Catholic, but Orthodox by the time of his death. He left the MP because he did not trust going to Soviet Russia to be ordained a Bishop. Those communities later joined the Milan Synod. --JosephSuaiden 20:48, July 18, 2008 (UTC)
You've been misinformed. Brothers did claim to be Old Catholic - from the time he left his priesthood in the Russian Orthodox Church, until his death - as the Metropolitan Archbishop of the Old Catholic Church in America. He had already gone to Soviet Russia before when he was 'consecrated' by the Living Church movement. Within a year of being received into Orthodoxy by Bp Dositheus (Russian Orthodox - not 'Living Church'), he left to perform Old Catholic consecrations as an Old Catholic bishop: unaware he had been elected as a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church. The leadership passed to Dom Augustine (Whitfield) who took the body into ROCOR - where it remains to this day. 'Metropolitan-Archbishop Brothers' most interesting activity was in Ecumenicism: where he supported the claims and ministry of "Father Divine", as well as Billy Graham. The only contact with Orthodoxy he ever had was the one year he was a priest of Mount Royal under Bishop Dositheus. His 'communities' that joined the Milan Synod were Old Catholic, and never had Orthodox orders. The only community that he was ever associated with that became Orthodox was Mount Royal - and its former members (including novices) are to this day either still in ROCOR, the MP, or with the Antiochians. It helps to have access to archives - and the people who lived through it.You might find some illumination here: http://sourcebook.oldcatholichistory.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=75&page=1
Since we are currently locked in a debate about the current status of certain members of our Churches that are living I would venture to say that neither of us is acting objectively.--JosephSuaiden 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why the Orthodox Church of France is mentioned in this article; they aren't Old Calendar. --Fr Lev 04:28, April 28, 2008 (UTC)
I was under the impression that they were at one point on the Old Calendar-- since it appears one of their American parishes uses the Old Calendar. That said, their history is very much tied into the history of the Russian Church Abroad as the ROCOR was beginning a period of deeper isolation from official Orthodoxy, which nurtured a catastrophist position.--JosephSuaiden 12:57, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
I believe that France was New Calendar even while under the protection of Archibsihop (Saint) John Maximovitch and ROCOR. They were not the only ones in ROCOR using the New Calendar. More controversially, the Church of France follows the Western Paschalion. No parishes of the French Church in France are Old Calendar. The fact that there is an American parish that observes the Old Calendar is idiosyncratic, so I don't think France has a place in this article. --Fr Lev 13:19, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
You may well be right, Father. I will check the history, and if this is the case, I think at the least that should be noted in every instance of the French Church's mention in the article as soon as humanly possible. I am loath to remove reference to them altogether, because the ideological stance of the French Church as against the stance of the more "mainline" Western rite groupings matches more the thinking that is found in Milan and ROCOR Sarum parishes (what I call "catastrophic"), which do use the Old Calendar. (However, it should be noted that in those same circles I have heard the argument adduced that even before the schism, the French Church was using a pre-schism Roman Rite.) I may well be misreading them, however, and am open to correction. --Suaiden 15:48, May 4, 2008 (UTC)
As of yesterday, I did ask the priest of L'ECOF in America if what you said was correct. I have corrected the page accordingly. --Suaiden 00:23, May 15, 2008 (UTC)
ROCOR and ECOF
This is grossly inaccurate: "In Europe, the ROCOR's role in the formation of the Church of France is undisputed, as the Church's existence was blessed by St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. However, the majority of the Church of France's parishes in France are on the New Calendar." 1. The Church of France was established in 1936 by Moscow. It was over two decades before St John became the archpastor for ECOF. 2. I know of NO parish in ECOF (in France) that uses the Old Calendar. --Fr Lev 00:35, May 15, 2008 (UTC)
It is possible to just correct it.... L'ECOF had no Bishop until St John of Shanghai, and therefore couldn't perpetuate itself. As for the calendar, that was just a mistake. Will update accordingly.... --Suaiden 19:54, May 16, 2008 (UTC)
Updated. --Suaiden 19:58, May 16, 2008 (UTC)
It is not correct to say that the Church of France had no bishop until Archbishop (Saint) John (Maximovitch). The Church of France was under the PAtriarchate of Moscow, which has bishops. There is one and only one priest under the omophorion of the bishop of the Orthodox Church of France who uses an Old Calendar reckoning of the date, but I'm not sure this is what is conveyed by saying he is onl the Old Calendar. He follows the calendar of the Church of France, which is Western, only he observes this Western calendar 13 days after everyone else. In any event, the existence of one priest being given permission to so reckon the calendar doesn't warrant including France in this article. --Fr Lev 20:13, July 18, 2008 (UTC)
Relevance of text to title
I reassert that considerable amounts of this article have nothing to do with the specific issue of the Western Rite and Old Calendarists. There are five sections to this article:
- Introduction - Mostly on topic.
- Difference in Mindset Among Western Rite Orthodox - Should be its own article.
- Suitability of Definitions - See above.
- History - The line about Overbeck is relevant to the previous section; the remainder is (or should be) covered in the history of Western Rite articles.
- Ecumenism and the Western Rite - Badly named, and needing an full rewrite. There's a lot of prejoratives, in addition to discussion of 'Mainstream' Orthodox Churches, which should be, at most, peripherally in the article, if at all.
- "Catastrophist" Thought and Orthodox Traditionalism - Should be tied to the 'Difference in Mindset Among Western Rite Orthodox' article.
I posit that this article should be two articles - one talking about WR and Old Calendarists (which would include ROCOR pre-reunification, but not post), the other talking about different viewpoints on the Great Schism. — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 05:19, August 3, 2008 (UTC)
THANK YOU! This was extremely constructive. I would be glad to try to see such a "split" occur if it would make this more useful to the wiki. I will look over "Ecumenism" section to see what can be done with it. (looking over it now, I can't find too much opinion, but much that can be seen as such without actual proof -- saying the MP abandoned the Western rite without proof seems opinionated- open to suggestions). Thank you very much. --JosephSuaiden 05:26, August 3, 2008 (UTC)