Talk:Shenouda III (Gayyid) of Alexandria

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(~ I look forward to all your responses. Thank you for your time.)
('''Regarding His Holiness Pope Shenouda III''')
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'''''"Theosis or Deification means "union with God" taken from the Greek Theos - God, and the word Enosis - union. Our Lord Jesus Christ asked God the Father "They also may be one in us" (Jn 17:21). He also gave us the command of Theosis "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect" (Mt 5:48), our goal in life is to accomplish perfect union with God through the grace of the Holy Spirit. Man was created in the image and likeness of God, and then sin created a gap between God and mankind, causing damage to our souls. All Christians through baptism receive the seed of Theosis, which is not only to the forgiveness of sins, reconciliation and justification, but also a restoration of God's image. The sinful inclination of our human nature should not govern our behavior anymore; instead we should strive to live a holy life looking towards Jesus Christ the author of our faith, and growing in His knowledge and sonship. The restoration and sanctification of Theosis brings us back into relationship with the Creator. St. Athanasius' presentation of Theosis was summarized as "the reintegration of the divine image of man's creation through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit conforming the redeemed into the likeness of the Lord Jesus Christ, and also of the believer's transition from mortality to immortality so that he is enabled to participate in the eternal bliss and glory of the kingdom of God."'''  
 
'''''"Theosis or Deification means "union with God" taken from the Greek Theos - God, and the word Enosis - union. Our Lord Jesus Christ asked God the Father "They also may be one in us" (Jn 17:21). He also gave us the command of Theosis "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect" (Mt 5:48), our goal in life is to accomplish perfect union with God through the grace of the Holy Spirit. Man was created in the image and likeness of God, and then sin created a gap between God and mankind, causing damage to our souls. All Christians through baptism receive the seed of Theosis, which is not only to the forgiveness of sins, reconciliation and justification, but also a restoration of God's image. The sinful inclination of our human nature should not govern our behavior anymore; instead we should strive to live a holy life looking towards Jesus Christ the author of our faith, and growing in His knowledge and sonship. The restoration and sanctification of Theosis brings us back into relationship with the Creator. St. Athanasius' presentation of Theosis was summarized as "the reintegration of the divine image of man's creation through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit conforming the redeemed into the likeness of the Lord Jesus Christ, and also of the believer's transition from mortality to immortality so that he is enabled to participate in the eternal bliss and glory of the kingdom of God."'''  
  
'''Our full union with God is a union with the "energies" of God. These energies, while an extension of God, are not to be confused with the "essence" or "substance" of God, which is unknown by humans and is shared only by the Holy Trinity. Our union with God will not make us gods but will make us partners in the Divine nature in works not in essence. We will not acquire the unique characteristics of God such as being the Creator, the Omnipotent, the Omnipresent, but it will make us partners with Him in building the Kingdom by our own salvation and by winning the souls of others to the Lord Jesus Christ."'''''  
+
'''''Our full union with God is a union with the "energies" of God. These energies, while an extension of God, are not to be confused with the "essence" or "substance" of God, which is unknown by humans and is shared only by the Holy Trinity. Our union with God will not make us gods but will make us partners in the Divine nature in works not in essence. We will not acquire the unique characteristics of God such as being the Creator, the Omnipotent, the Omnipresent, but it will make us partners with Him in building the Kingdom by our own salvation and by winning the souls of others to the Lord Jesus Christ."'''''''  
  
In the page about His Holiness Pope Shenouda III it says, "Books like Achieving Your Potential in Christ: Theosis - Plain Talks on a Major Doctrine of Orthodoxy by the Very Rev. Fr. Anthony M. Coniaris (Edited by D. A. Riewe) '''''would thus be against Pope Shenouda's teachings.'''''" - How can you ever make such a statement without first knowing and understand what His Holiness has actually said about the concept of Theosis?  
+
In the page about His Holiness Pope Shenouda III it says, "Books like Achieving Your Potential in Christ: Theosis - Plain Talks on a Major Doctrine of Orthodoxy by the Very Rev. Fr. Anthony M. Coniaris (Edited by D. A. Riewe) '''''would ''thus be against Pope Shenouda's teachings''.'''''" - How can you ever make such a statement without first knowing and understand what His Holiness has actually said about the concept of Theosis?  
  
In the beginning of the section it says, "Pope Shenouda III '''is said to be'''''Italic text'' totally denying the Orthodox concept and doctrine of theosis (even the word/term)". This is a statement that cannot be backed in any way and is just someone stating what they THINK they heard about His Holiness and it doesn't deserve to be on a page about him as though it was factual information!  
+
In the beginning of the section it says, "Pope Shenouda III '''''is said to be''''' totally denying the Orthodox concept and doctrine of theosis (even the word/term)". This is a statement that cannot be backed in any way and is just someone stating what they THINK they heard about His Holiness and it doesn't deserve to be on a page about him as though it was factual information!  
  
 
In that section it also says "Pope Shenouda's longstanding theological disputes with Habib Bebawi, PhD (Cambridge), '''''a renowned Coptic theologian''''' specialising in patristic studies and the late Father Matta El-Meskeen are well known, and many observers have attributed them to personal and ecclesiastico-political motives, rather than to any genuine doctrinal flaws or deviations from Orthodoxy in the writings of Bebawi and Matta." - Dr. Bebawi has been excommunicated from the Coptic Orthodox Church and he is now a member of the Anglican Church and therefore, anything he says or believes does not have anything to do with the Coptic Orthodox Church. Dr. Bebawi also joined the Russian Orthodox Church first before leaving them to join the Anglican Church because they also did not agree with ANY of this teachings, meaning he is clearly NOT Orthodox! If you were to realize that all those against His Holiness are not Orthodox maybe you'd take back your statements. Father Matta had many thoughts that are not Orthodox and His Holiness wrote many books to answer all of the wrong teachings of Father Matta and therefore no one can ever claim that it is just personal problems! It is all VERY well documented in the writings of His Holiness and those of Father Matta. I'm trying to show you here that your statements have no back bone and they are all incorrect and I would like to have them removed immediately!  
 
In that section it also says "Pope Shenouda's longstanding theological disputes with Habib Bebawi, PhD (Cambridge), '''''a renowned Coptic theologian''''' specialising in patristic studies and the late Father Matta El-Meskeen are well known, and many observers have attributed them to personal and ecclesiastico-political motives, rather than to any genuine doctrinal flaws or deviations from Orthodoxy in the writings of Bebawi and Matta." - Dr. Bebawi has been excommunicated from the Coptic Orthodox Church and he is now a member of the Anglican Church and therefore, anything he says or believes does not have anything to do with the Coptic Orthodox Church. Dr. Bebawi also joined the Russian Orthodox Church first before leaving them to join the Anglican Church because they also did not agree with ANY of this teachings, meaning he is clearly NOT Orthodox! If you were to realize that all those against His Holiness are not Orthodox maybe you'd take back your statements. Father Matta had many thoughts that are not Orthodox and His Holiness wrote many books to answer all of the wrong teachings of Father Matta and therefore no one can ever claim that it is just personal problems! It is all VERY well documented in the writings of His Holiness and those of Father Matta. I'm trying to show you here that your statements have no back bone and they are all incorrect and I would like to have them removed immediately!  

Revision as of 22:09, May 5, 2007

We have permission to use this material under the terms of your license. God Bless. --arbible (Coptic Orthodox Servant) http://www.zeitun-eg.org http://www.stmina-monastery.org http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arbible/

It might be that this forum is biased towards the Greek orthodox Church, who despite their official Church position (Ecumenical Patriarchate), still "hate" us like heretics. They are welcome though as a minority Church in Egypt (300,000 vs. >15 million Copts worldwide, incl. >9 millions inside Egypt). The Coptic Church Network of Sites Online (incl. St Takla) have one common goal, to serve our Lord, and one Pope, Abba Shenouda III. God Bless.

1. Who owns the copyright? When did they give permission? Do you own the St. Takla website? This really needs to be explicit, because OrthodoxWiki cannot risk violating copyright law.
2. OrthodoxWiki is explicitly biased in favor of the Chalcedonian Orthodox (see: OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual#Neutrality_and_the_OrthodoxWiki_Bias), but that has nothing to do with attempting to determine the copyright status of a given article.
3. Material about Coptic Orthodoxy is welcome on OrthodoxWiki so long as contributors are willing to abide by the standards in the official Style Manual. I myself am "Greek Orthodox" and do not hate Copts as heretics. I've visited Coptic services on a few occasions and always had a positive experience.
Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 14:16, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)

It doesn't belong to St Takla's Church site (which is also a Coptic Orthodox Church in the city of Alexandria under our Pope's full rule). Our Coptic Church releases and updates English/Arabic/French/German biographies of our Pope like this one on different occasions (e.g., HH Silver Jubilee in 1996) and these are free to use/distribute, and already in use, abridged or in full, in many sites, not just the site of St Takla Haymanot's Coptic Orthodox Church in Alexandria, Egypt, e.g.,: http://icopts.com/new_site/content/view/70/230/ http://icopts.com/new_site/content/view/71/230/

I also wanted to add (under Ecumenical Relations): Report About Relations With the Russian Orthodox Church

P.S. Coptic literally means Egyptian/of Egypt.

Thank you! That's most satisfactory. I'm reverting the article back to its former state. In the future, if you're not writing the text yourself, please state its source and the permission granted. Additionally, please tag all the images included in this article appropriately and rename and re-upload them, if necessary. —Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 14:36, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Very many thanks+++ May God keep you always well and safe.

Contents

Last Names

This has come up a few times on the wiki. We realize that monks technically do not have a last name, although they often retain their last name for "worldly purposes." We're not challenging this tradition! However, because of the multitude of names, it is sometimes helpful to be able to identify someone more precisely, which is where last names come in and why we try to retain them in parens. See the style manual for more detail! — FrJohn (talk)

Bishops and episcopates

I am not sure but i bealive that all modern Patriarchs alreadz were bishops before election. I am sure for His holiness Pavle of Serbia and His holiness Alexiy of Russia. This was not problem in chalcedonian churches for more than 1000 years. I did not know that this is problem in Non-Chalcedonian Churches.

Bishops and episcopates

I am not sure but i bealive that all modern Patriarchs alreadz were bishops before election. I am sure for His holiness Pavle of Serbia and His holiness Alexiy of Russia. This was not problem in chalcedonian churches for more than 1000 years. I did not know that this is problem in Non-Chalcedonian Churches. --Ddpbf 01:53, April 18, 2007 (PDT)

Yes, what you are saying is correct, and the article already states it as a counter-argument: "However, there are also modern day examples from other Churches of patriarchs who were previously bishops before their election as patriarchs, e.g., [1], [2]."
However, in the Coptic Orthodox Church this is still considered non-canonical (against Nicea Canon 15).
So both sides of the arguments are presented in the current version of the article.
--Yours in Christ, --Arbible 08:53, April 18, 2007 (PDT)
Thank you for explinations. I do not know a lot about Coptic Church from 7th chentury. God bless you.--Ddpbf 11:23, April 18, 2007 (PDT)


Regarding His Holiness Pope Shenouda III

My Dear Brother,

First I want to warn you not to believe everything you hear. I would like to know what your sources are and if you claim that all of what you are saying is included in the writings of His Holiness, then I want you to send me the text of what you are speaking about. It is very easy for someone just to claim they heard this from someone they think is a credible source, but to actually check to see whether all of what they told you is true, is a very hard task. If you are able to find all of the sources, then you could justify your claims. Until then, these are 100% unjustified and I'm telling you they are not true. If you are claiming that His Holiness Pope Shenouda III wrote against His Holiness Pope Kyrillos VI in the Keraza magazine, then I would like to know exactly which issue number it is and from what year and I will find it or if you have it then please scan and send me the article where you claim he speaks against him. I am unable to believe what you are saying is true. I'm sure you are very aware there is also a controversy about the concept of Theosis these days. There are many who think that either they will become God or will become one with God exactly as our Lord Jesus Christ but this is not true and this is the only part of the concept of Theosis that His Holiness disagrees with and I'm sure the Eastern Orthodox Church disagrees with those statements as well.

Here is the Coptic Orthodox understanding of Theosis:

"Theosis or Deification means "union with God" taken from the Greek Theos - God, and the word Enosis - union. Our Lord Jesus Christ asked God the Father "They also may be one in us" (Jn 17:21). He also gave us the command of Theosis "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect" (Mt 5:48), our goal in life is to accomplish perfect union with God through the grace of the Holy Spirit. Man was created in the image and likeness of God, and then sin created a gap between God and mankind, causing damage to our souls. All Christians through baptism receive the seed of Theosis, which is not only to the forgiveness of sins, reconciliation and justification, but also a restoration of God's image. The sinful inclination of our human nature should not govern our behavior anymore; instead we should strive to live a holy life looking towards Jesus Christ the author of our faith, and growing in His knowledge and sonship. The restoration and sanctification of Theosis brings us back into relationship with the Creator. St. Athanasius' presentation of Theosis was summarized as "the reintegration of the divine image of man's creation through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit conforming the redeemed into the likeness of the Lord Jesus Christ, and also of the believer's transition from mortality to immortality so that he is enabled to participate in the eternal bliss and glory of the kingdom of God."

Our full union with God is a union with the "energies" of God. These energies, while an extension of God, are not to be confused with the "essence" or "substance" of God, which is unknown by humans and is shared only by the Holy Trinity. Our union with God will not make us gods but will make us partners in the Divine nature in works not in essence. We will not acquire the unique characteristics of God such as being the Creator, the Omnipotent, the Omnipresent, but it will make us partners with Him in building the Kingdom by our own salvation and by winning the souls of others to the Lord Jesus Christ."''

In the page about His Holiness Pope Shenouda III it says, "Books like Achieving Your Potential in Christ: Theosis - Plain Talks on a Major Doctrine of Orthodoxy by the Very Rev. Fr. Anthony M. Coniaris (Edited by D. A. Riewe) would thus be against Pope Shenouda's teachings." - How can you ever make such a statement without first knowing and understand what His Holiness has actually said about the concept of Theosis?

In the beginning of the section it says, "Pope Shenouda III is said to be totally denying the Orthodox concept and doctrine of theosis (even the word/term)". This is a statement that cannot be backed in any way and is just someone stating what they THINK they heard about His Holiness and it doesn't deserve to be on a page about him as though it was factual information!

In that section it also says "Pope Shenouda's longstanding theological disputes with Habib Bebawi, PhD (Cambridge), a renowned Coptic theologian specialising in patristic studies and the late Father Matta El-Meskeen are well known, and many observers have attributed them to personal and ecclesiastico-political motives, rather than to any genuine doctrinal flaws or deviations from Orthodoxy in the writings of Bebawi and Matta." - Dr. Bebawi has been excommunicated from the Coptic Orthodox Church and he is now a member of the Anglican Church and therefore, anything he says or believes does not have anything to do with the Coptic Orthodox Church. Dr. Bebawi also joined the Russian Orthodox Church first before leaving them to join the Anglican Church because they also did not agree with ANY of this teachings, meaning he is clearly NOT Orthodox! If you were to realize that all those against His Holiness are not Orthodox maybe you'd take back your statements. Father Matta had many thoughts that are not Orthodox and His Holiness wrote many books to answer all of the wrong teachings of Father Matta and therefore no one can ever claim that it is just personal problems! It is all VERY well documented in the writings of His Holiness and those of Father Matta. I'm trying to show you here that your statements have no back bone and they are all incorrect and I would like to have them removed immediately!

I hope to hear back from you soon with the sources and proof for what it is you are claiming and I'd also like to know how you are able to protect the document and prevent others from correcting the information because you are not justified in your claims and therefore, you cannot forbid anyone else from making a correction to what you are saying. I hope you understand me because this is a serious matter that I would like resoloved.

Please keep me in your prayers.

Regarding His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy: PLEASE DO NOT ERASE! PLEASE RESPOND!

What exactly is it about the recording that bothers you? The fact that His Eminence quotes our Lord Jesus Christ when he says those who are not Baptized cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Do you dare to disagree with the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ?!?!

Please explain exactly what it is that you have a problem with because I do not understand. Do you really think that Dr. Bebawi is a credible source for ANY information? Especially after he has been excommunicated from the Coptic Orthodox Church because of heretical teachings. At first he turned to the Russian Orthodox Church but he left them for the Anglican Church many years ago and I have the official document to prove it! Maybe you should try reading what His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy has to say about Dr. Bebawi rather than read what Dr. Bebawi has to say about our Church! You should read these articles before making anymore false accusations: 1

I hope you will correct all the wrong information you have stated here. You are speaking against His Holiness the Pope and a Metropolitan without knowing the TRUTH! Please do some research, read both sides of the issue before you start speaking against Holy men of God! I hope you understand why this situation is really troubling me, it is because everything you are saying is a lie and you clearly have not looked at both sides of this issue and because of everything you have said, you are leading others to believe it is true. You have become a stumbling block to people seeking the truth! I hope you will make the proper corrections soon!

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