Talk:Sarum Use

Well, technically it isn't a tradition of the pre-Schism West, as Sarum Cathedral was dedicated in 1092, and the Sarum as known from the texts dates from New Salisbury in the 13th c. That it is essentially no different than Pre-Schism Frankish and Celtic-Saxon Roman traditions is witnessed to by contemporaries, but the Use itself is definitely post-Schism. All surviving documents of the Sarum use are post-LePoore, in fact.

Noted. --Rdr. Andrew 21:27, 24 Mar 2005 (CST)

Another minor point: the "Old Sarum Rite" is not a version of the Sarum use of the Roman rite. Its relationship is unclear and tenuous to Sarum at this point. If one compares merely the ritual (the printed text) there are many anomalies and differences with the "Old Sarum Rite" that distinguish it from the Sarum Use. Anglo-Roman is a better classification for this rite, as it is in English and is basically a Roman rite. However, its sources vary widely and retain not enough Sarum material to even be considered a 'version'. The ceremonial and much of the rite is based upon finding Byzantine analogues in Western customs that were either quite singular, irregular, or modern misinterpretations of antique material. The wording I used originally was to precisely note this relationship... it is not a version, but a new rite of its own that has never been served outside of the past few decades, and then only in the USA. It is a work of liturgical archaeology, and has not been vetted by liturgists with experience in Western Rite towards whether it does (or can) do what it purports to represent: Anglo-Saxon liturgy of the 9th c. - Aristibule

Please feel free to note all this information in the article. By using "version," I didn't mean to imply that it was taken from the non-"Old" Sarum Use.--Rdr. Andrew 17:49, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT)

I would suggest a revert from the February 20, 2006 edit by YBeayf - far from a 'incorrect sentence', the lineage of the English Orthodox liturgies (St. Tikhon's AWRV and the English Rite ROCOR) goes back through both the Scottish-American BCP and English BCP traditions. The former tradition is rooted in the latter, which in itself is a heavily edited version of the Henrician Sarum (the Sarum rite with some items in English, the removal of references to the Papacy, and some later saints.) If someone is going to make a change based upon something being incorrect, they should provide an argument for the 'why' of it. However, we know the liturgical tradition in England went from a multitude of local Cathedral uses, to a majority using Sarum or Sarum-based liturgy, to the direction for Sarum to be used by all churches, to the Henrician Sarum, then to the first BCP based upon the work of the former. The BCP tradition also borrowed elements from other Eastern and Western rites at that time, but there is no reason to believe that its primary source was anything other than the Henrician Sarum already approved for use by the same Convocation. - Aristibule07:13, 22 Feb 2006.

No, the English BCP communion service is not rooted in the Sarum mass. It of course contains some of the same elements, but consists of portions common to all Western liturgies combined with texts and rubrics made up from whole cloth by Cranmer. The BCP communion service was not a continuation of the Sarum rite, but a new, thoroughly Protestantized service with a few bits filched from the authentic Catholic rite of England. YBeayf 14:51, March 2, 2006 (CST)

It seems, to an outsider, that both sides may have justification to their position. Perhaps both views, with their supporting evidence, should be noted in the article (as 'contention', for instance)? -- — by Pιsτévο ^{talk complaints} at 18:17, March 3, 2006 (CST)

One supposes, then one will have to make allowance for all sorts of silliness by way of 'contention'. The facts are that the Sarum Use had become the sole use of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales on the Eve of the Reformation. During the reign of Henry VIII it was edited both for removal of all references to the Papacy, later Roman Catholic saints, and the first translations into English. The First Prayer Book was primarily based upon this use (which was the use of the realm), along with scholarly materials (Lutheran, Spanish, and Oriental liturgies), and the work of Convocation. Cranmer only had a part, not being the primary author of the first BCP, but the second BCP. The 'silliness' comes from the contention that the bulk of the BCP tradition's source material, being the Roman rite, is *not* from the Sarum use when it would have been near impossible to have been from anything else (particularly the 1570 Roman Mass, as the recent weblore has it from those who try to claim no connection between the Sarum Use and the Prayer Book tradition.) It also does not take into account the variety in what is called Sarum Use - a recent blog post by a newly ordained anti-WRO ECUSA minister seems to be the origin of all this 'contention', based upon his comparison of a single version of the ordinary of the Sarum Use with the 1549 BCP, and not taking into account at all the Henrician Sarum (which also contain some of the same deletions as found in the 1549 BCP.) I should also point out that the various Prayer Books changed over time - Rome still considered the Henrician Sarum and 1549 BCP to be 'Catholic rites'. The 1552 BCP, being what Cranmer wanted to begin with (but couldn't get past Convocation on the first try), and later English versions that restored what 1552 deleted still are in the lineage of the 1549 and Sarum. Even the Scottish liturgy, though it was far more changed by further contemporary scholarship; particularly as to the liturgy of St. Clement and St. James. Ari 16:12, March 7, 2006 (CST)

One last point on 'YBeayfs criticisms. He calls the BCP 1549 "Protestantized service with a few bits filched from the authentic Catholic rite of England." Of course, the authentic Catholic rite of England *is* the Sarum Use. It had been the majority use for 300 years previously (as well as Ireland and Scotland.) As for 'Protestantized', of course, but to be '-ized', one has to have an original to changed. That original would be - the sole authentic Catholic rite readily available to the English: the Sarum Use. Ari 16:22, March 7, 2006 (CST)

No, I didn't say that. I said "English BCP communion service", without specifying a year. The 1549 Book of Common Prayer is not what first comes to mind to most people when one mentions the "BCP".

I have not seen this blog posting which you reference; rest assured that any contention here is purely of my own making. My objection to saying the BCP (post-1552) is rooted in the Sarum usage of the Roman rite is that the essence of the mass, the offertory and canon, are changed beyond recognition. Of course the general structure of the BCP service mirrors the Sarum usage, but it is IMO rather tendentious to claim this roots the BCP service in the Sarum usage when the most important parts of the Sarum are not carried over, and the framework of the BCP service and the Sarum usage are common to all Latin rites. Nevertheless, I will cease fighting to have that sentence removed. I have, however, added a small clarification, which I hope will be allowed to stand. YBeayf 17:42, March 8, 2006 (CST)

This "...in that the creators of the Book of Common Prayer used the Sarum missal as a springboard for their reformed liturgy." is not a clarification, but simply redundant repetition of 'primary origin with Sarum use'. They say the exact same thing, but without the colloquialism of 'springboard'. I'm not sure what one means by 'most important parts of the Sarum', but it doesn't change the fact of *primary origin*. See: http://flickr.com/photos/21182585@N00/1434369/ for a chart describing the origins of the rites. The ROCOR English Use is from the 1549 BCP with restorations according to Sarum, York, the Gothic Missal. Answering Fr. Lev's post, the lineage of the St. Tikhon's is not all that far removed. The American 1928 BCP was a more catholicized form of the earlier American Prayer Book, that tradition having its origin with the Scottish Non-Juror liturgy (that which Seabury brought from Scotland to America). The Scottish Non-Jurors use not only had the indirect source of Laud's prayer book, but also has evidence of using the 1549 BCP, Sarum, and other uses (especially the contemporary translations of the liturgies of St. Clement, St. James, etc.) More below... Ari 11:41, March 12, 2006 (CST)

No, they don't say the same thing. One implies that the BCP tradition was a simple continuation of the Sarum. The other makes it clear that there was a break, and that the creators of the BCP used the Sarum rite as a template for their own, reformed, heretical liturgy. YBeayf 22:26, March 12, 2006 (CST)

That is reading more into the syntax than is there. 'Primary origin' is precisely what it is. Ari 23:58, March 13, 2006 (CST)

The Book of Common Prayer and Sarum

The Liturgy of St Tikhon used in the AWRV is based upon the 1928 Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church, which is quite a distance from the first BCP,the English Prayer Book of 1549. When some thought the 1549 patient of a Catholic interpretation, Cranmer revised it in 1552 to exclude such Catholic interpretation. Under Queen Elizabeth I, who desperately wanted unity in her kingdom, the 1559 edition came out as a compromise book that would be something between the "Catholic" 1549 and the "Protestant" 1552.

Four centuries later, the American BCP of 1928 had precious little that could be said to partake in the heritage of the pre-Reformation Sarum. A goodly amount of the Liturgy of St Tikhon is borrowed from the Tridentine. This is not in any way a criticism of the AWRV usage -- I am simply saying that the historical connections between the Liturgy of St Tikhon and Sarum are pretty thin. --Fr Lev 21:29, March 8, 2006 (CST)

The 1552, and 1559 editions have nothing to do with the Orthodox Prayer Book derived liturgies. And important point to note with the American 1928 is that it doesn't have 'more distance' between it, but returns far closer to older forms than intervening American BCPs. Saying 'pretty thin' and 'precious little' are pov, while the fact that the 1928 American BCP has a lineage with a primary origin in the Sarum Use of the Roman rite is non-pov. Ari 11:41, March 12, 2006 (CST)

In the first place, since this is a "talk" page, I would assume that one may express a POV. Second, Ari's proitests not withstanding, the American 1928 is part of the tradition of the 1552, 1559, etc. A simple and example: the 1928 uses the compromise 1559 formula for administering communion. The 1549 used "The body of our Lorde Jesus Christe whiche was geven for thee, preserve thy bodye and soule unto everlasting lyfe." In order to deny the Real Presence, the 1552 was changed to: "Take and eate this, in remembraunce that Christ dyed for thee, and feede on him in thy hearte by faythe, with thankesgeving." Queen Elizabeth's 1559 version, which was designed to be a book that both "Catholic" and "Protestant" Anglicans could use, simply put the two contradictory formulas together: "The bodie of our lord Jesu Christ, which was geven for the, preserve thy body and soule into everlastinge life: and take and eate this in remembraunce that Christ died for thee, feede on him in thine heart by faith, with thankesgevynge." And this is what you find in the 1928: "The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving." Third, this can't fairly be described as POV -- it simply reflects the scholarship on the Anglican Prayer Book tradition. One could point out other such differences. One more that comes to mind is that the Psalter of the 1928 moved even further away from the LXX in favor of the Masoretic Texts. It is simply false to claim that the 1928 has its primary origin in Sarum. --Fr Lev 12:40, March 12, 2006 (CST)

It is no false claim - the lineage is clear, and the BCP tradition as a whole descends from the Sarum Use of the Roman rite. It really isn't that difficult a concept. That the American BCP is further down the line isn't the contention: of course it is. However, ultimately the trail leads back to the Sarum Use.... in the case of the American BCP tradition, through the Scottish BCP tradition, the Non-Jurors liturgy, etc. And - most importantly, whomever 'Fr Lev' is he is conflating the Orthodox Prayer Book derived liturgies with the American 1928 BCP: they are not one and the same. Ari 23:58, March 13, 2006 (CST)