Talk:Prerogatives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate

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:Probably because, firstly, option (c) is not represented by any sides listed in the article; and secondly, the practical difference between the proposed option (c) and option (a) is negligible - much of the same arguments for multiple jurisdictions could also be used (spiritually interdependant). Of course, a lot of these depend on how one defines "unanswerable", "interdependence" and "primatial leadership", which is possibly part of the problem... &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="red">Pι</font>]][[Special:Listusers/sysop|s]][[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="yellow">τ</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Pistevo|é]][[User:Pistevo|<font color="blue">vο</font>]] at 00:57, June 10, 2006 (CDT)
 
:Probably because, firstly, option (c) is not represented by any sides listed in the article; and secondly, the practical difference between the proposed option (c) and option (a) is negligible - much of the same arguments for multiple jurisdictions could also be used (spiritually interdependant). Of course, a lot of these depend on how one defines "unanswerable", "interdependence" and "primatial leadership", which is possibly part of the problem... &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="red">Pι</font>]][[Special:Listusers/sysop|s]][[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="yellow">τ</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Pistevo|é]][[User:Pistevo|<font color="blue">vο</font>]] at 00:57, June 10, 2006 (CDT)
  
Probably I should read the article more carefully, but does anyone actually teach (a)? It seems that the questions are much more about the character of primacy, what it should look like (and perhpas who should exercise it and how it should be exercised), rather than whether there is any legitimate primacy at all. (a) seems completely untenable from the perspective of ancient canon law, no? {{User:FrJohn/sig}}
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Probably I should read the article more carefully, but does anyone actually teach (a)? It seems that the questions are much more about the character of primacy, what it should look like (and perhaps who should exercise it and how it should be exercised), rather than whether there is any legitimate primacy at all. (a) seems completely untenable from the perspective of ancient canon law, no? {{User:FrJohn/sig}}
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: But from the perspective of the "Third Rome" doctrine, it is tenable.  The ecumenical canons of course do not address the newer patriarchates, since they didn't exist at the time.  I do agree that it's about the character of primacy, essentially whether it is purely honorific, or whether there is any authority attached to it.  Additionally, I have read the view that regards Constantinople's primacy as purely politically based, and so now forfeit. 
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: In any event, it was the claim of Moscow that every autocephalous church has the right to grant autocephaly to one of its constituent parts when it granted the OCA autocephaly in 1970.  This very much goes to the heart of the question of Constantinople's primacy, because its response was that only the whole Church, whose voice is expressed by Constantinople in such matters, may make such a grant. 
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: All that aside, though, the article's got a long way to go!  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font color="blue"><b><i>Dcn. Andrew</i></b></font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Randompage|<font color="blue">random</font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</sup> 16:29, June 10, 2006 (CDT)

Revision as of 13:29, June 10, 2006

Article said: "Fundamentally, the difference in opinion is based in a different conception of universal Church governance. a) Either each autocephalous church is to be regarded as absolutely sovereign in its sphere, unanswerable to any others, or b) there is a mutual interdependence of the churches and patriarchs upon one another, and this interdependence is expressed in the primatial leadership of the Ecumenical Patriarch"

Why don't have option (c): there is a mutual interdependence of the churches and patriarchs upon one another, and this interdependence doesn't require the primatial leadership of any Patriarch

Probably because, firstly, option (c) is not represented by any sides listed in the article; and secondly, the practical difference between the proposed option (c) and option (a) is negligible - much of the same arguments for multiple jurisdictions could also be used (spiritually interdependant). Of course, a lot of these depend on how one defines "unanswerable", "interdependence" and "primatial leadership", which is possibly part of the problem... — edited by sτévο at 00:57, June 10, 2006 (CDT)

Probably I should read the article more carefully, but does anyone actually teach (a)? It seems that the questions are much more about the character of primacy, what it should look like (and perhaps who should exercise it and how it should be exercised), rather than whether there is any legitimate primacy at all. (a) seems completely untenable from the perspective of ancient canon law, no? — FrJohn (talk)

But from the perspective of the "Third Rome" doctrine, it is tenable. The ecumenical canons of course do not address the newer patriarchates, since they didn't exist at the time. I do agree that it's about the character of primacy, essentially whether it is purely honorific, or whether there is any authority attached to it. Additionally, I have read the view that regards Constantinople's primacy as purely politically based, and so now forfeit.
In any event, it was the claim of Moscow that every autocephalous church has the right to grant autocephaly to one of its constituent parts when it granted the OCA autocephaly in 1970. This very much goes to the heart of the question of Constantinople's primacy, because its response was that only the whole Church, whose voice is expressed by Constantinople in such matters, may make such a grant.
All that aside, though, the article's got a long way to go! —Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 16:29, June 10, 2006 (CDT)
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