Talk:Panagia Axion Estin

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Should this article be renamed "Panagia Axion Estin"? —[[User:Magda|<b>magda</b>]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 16:03, February 1, 2008 (PST)
 
Should this article be renamed "Panagia Axion Estin"? —[[User:Magda|<b>magda</b>]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 16:03, February 1, 2008 (PST)
 
:To my way of thinking, it should be: '''Mother of God ''It is Truly Meet'''''.  (Or maybe '''Dostoyno ye (Достойно є)'''. - [[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 05:16, February 4, 2008 (PST)
 
:To my way of thinking, it should be: '''Mother of God ''It is Truly Meet'''''.  (Or maybe '''Dostoyno ye (Достойно є)'''. - [[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 05:16, February 4, 2008 (PST)
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:: I wont put in my personal thoughts on what it should be because its just not respected. I made a typo so it should be Estin as opposed to Esti (my apologies) but in response to Andrew ... if you follow the link to the External Source (Wikipedia) it will take you to the AXION ESTIN page not the Truly Meet so perhaps that is a response to your comment above? ... although, I agree that I would want to see with all of the articles the equivalent name according to other languages (how it translates from its original into the copies) - (well, as many as it might have ...you know, example, most icon's originate in Greek, so have the Greek - because in the Orthodox church I have been taught by a monk that the NAME of a SAINT or ICON is closely tied into the history ... ((since usually the lignuistics of the name will describe the personality or virtue of that Saint or Situation of Icon ...)) but they are replicated into Russian, Serbian, Chinese, etc etc ... which are equally important to know about ... so it would be great to see the name variation in parantheses)! -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 18:34, February 4, 2008 (PST) PS - this paragraph makes no grammatical sence ..I know but I juggle so many things at once that I dont slow down long enough to think about the way I type ...so have to apologise if it sounds 'airy fairy'.
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:Article moved to 'Axion Estin' - whatever the title (and I don't know if Dostoyno ye should be it :) ), this is the correct form of the current title.
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:Whether we should follow the principle of English titles or transliterated Greek titles for icons is probably something that needs to be worked out as OW policy (for the record, I almost always support the former) - the current policy is that the most commonly used name for something should be used, whether that is English or transliterated Greek - this issue came up twice for the Orthros-turned-Matins article, and probably should be worked out here, too.
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:To respond to the history being tied to the name - this is something that needs to be taken into account in translation - I don't see how, for example, "Lady of the Myrtles" is an insufficient translation of 'Myrtidiotissa'.
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:As an aside, it's been the general practise to transliterate names that don't have an easily recognised alternative (Timotheos -> Timothy, for example, but Stylianos stays) and to translate titles (Profitis -> Prophet and Thavmatourgoi -> Wonderworkers), but I don't think there's any commonly-accepted convention on titles of icons as yet. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 02:59, February 5, 2008 (PST)
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::Hiya, look I do agree that transliteration is good, I think I have been immensely been misunderstood on this forum, especially by other Ops but my point is and you kind of say it too, you need to use "the most commonly used name for something should be used". Well, my observation is that (using your example of Lady of the Myrtle) the most common name over 2,000 years has been Myrtidiotissa not Lady of the Myrtle - and I am not saying this because I have some Greek-pushing agenda (This comment is for Father ASDamick who has completely mis-understood me as a person) ... my point is, this is meant to be an Encyclopedia, correct? Well, if say I was in China ... and I was doing a search on the icons ... and I looked up the Lady of the Myrtles ... let's hypothetically assume that I was so overwhelmed by the article and the icon I wanted to visit the original. So, I organise a trip to Greece to visit this ...if I ask all the locals their (since this is the origin of this particular icon) - excuse me, please direct me to the Lady of Myrtles ...t99.9% will have no idea what this tourist is wanting from them ... if however this icon was not from Greece and was from Serbia, I support the use of the name that was adopted in Serbia ..since the origin would be in that location ... IN PARANTHESES then it should have the transliterations ...this is just my opinion so i would like no one to attack me for having a different thought to the rest of this general group of Ops. Sorry. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 19:03, February 5, 2008 (PST)
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::PS, another comment I wanted to make (without it being rude ...I really wish to stress that the tone in my 'text' is not intended to be aggressive or pushy it is definately calm and merely conversational) is that the NEED for transliteration is only recent in the whole scheme of the church and has become necessary in the last couple of decades due to the fact that the world is increasingly becoming 'anglosaxonised' and is part of a global push to remove cultural identity (yes, I am a Zionist - Free-mason - antichrist theorist). As an Orthodox I resist this push for unification as I know it is the predecessor of the anti ... sorry guys, keep culture in the Orthodox church ... THAT IS what has kept it alive for the rest of the world to appreciate and enjoy ..today! -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 19:12, February 5, 2008 (PST)
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:A similar number would not know what a tourist was talking about if they said 'where's the priest' or, for that matter, 'excuse me, please direct me to'.  Any tourist or pilgrim should expect to use that country's language (or a tour guide) to get around.
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:But, that's not the issue - this isn't a tourist guide, and part of establishing a relevance between icon and potential venerator (which most people in our country are) is to translate the name.
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:The need for translation and transliteration has been around ever since the Apostles.  There are still words in the Liturgy that remain untranslated in any language (Hosanna and Amen spring to mind).  Admittedly, I also remember a lecturer who would constantly pronounce 'Θεοτοκος' as 'thi-OTta-kus' which drove me nuts for weeks...
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:I'm also unconvinced that the world is any much more Anglo-Saxonised than before - Americanised, maybe (and one shouldn't confuse the two).  But more importantly, transliterating would actually ''lead'' to what you fear, whereas translating keeps the integrity of the langauges. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 19:59, February 5, 2008 (PST)
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:: Hi Pistevo, I think you may have convinced me :-) However, it does drive me a little nuts not to be able to see the 'original' name ... it just seems so authentic you know ... there is something mystical with the work Ierosolymitissa for example as opposed to finding a 'loose' translation to match it and then adopting it, however, if its the norm ... its the norm. What can I do or say ..if the Apostles did it ... who am I to think otherwise ... Just as an added comment, it doesnt personally bother me when I hear people mis-pronounce ..if anything I become so overwhelmed that people had the courage to attempt a language other than the one that they know ...its such an inspirational thing! Did you study Theology? -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 20:05, February 5, 2008 (PST)
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:There's no reason that the original couldn't be in the article as the name in another language (the Matins article, with others, provides ample precedent).
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:I wouldn't have had a big problem with the mispronounciation if it had been a real mispronounciation - like saying 'thee-oh-TOE-koss', for instance - but that was just treating it with the same rules that one would apply to an English word - it would kinda makes sense, if Theotokos was an English word...but it's kinda not! :)
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:At the time, I was a lowly Arts student who decided to do early Church history as an elective subject - being the only Orthodox student in the class was certainly a unique experience!  I am studying Orthodox theology now, though. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 20:19, February 5, 2008 (PST)
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::Yes, I agree with the use of Parenthesis to include the translated variations of. I love Theology and have probably read every book under the sun ... but have never taken the initiative to study it in an official capacity ... Harvard University as an online Library where you can 'loan' archived thesis/articles but usually cost $16 per thesis/article ... really worth it though ... For example, I came across the apocalyptic prophecies of St Andrew the Fool for Christ and nearly fell of my chair! It turned out to be such an interesting read -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 20:29, February 5, 2008 (PST)

Latest revision as of 21:29, February 5, 2008

Should this article be renamed "Panagia Axion Estin"? —magda (talk) 16:03, February 1, 2008 (PST)

To my way of thinking, it should be: Mother of God It is Truly Meet. (Or maybe Dostoyno ye (Достойно є). - Andrew 05:16, February 4, 2008 (PST)
I wont put in my personal thoughts on what it should be because its just not respected. I made a typo so it should be Estin as opposed to Esti (my apologies) but in response to Andrew ... if you follow the link to the External Source (Wikipedia) it will take you to the AXION ESTIN page not the Truly Meet so perhaps that is a response to your comment above? ... although, I agree that I would want to see with all of the articles the equivalent name according to other languages (how it translates from its original into the copies) - (well, as many as it might have ...you know, example, most icon's originate in Greek, so have the Greek - because in the Orthodox church I have been taught by a monk that the NAME of a SAINT or ICON is closely tied into the history ... ((since usually the lignuistics of the name will describe the personality or virtue of that Saint or Situation of Icon ...)) but they are replicated into Russian, Serbian, Chinese, etc etc ... which are equally important to know about ... so it would be great to see the name variation in parantheses)! -- Vasiliki 18:34, February 4, 2008 (PST) PS - this paragraph makes no grammatical sence ..I know but I juggle so many things at once that I dont slow down long enough to think about the way I type ...so have to apologise if it sounds 'airy fairy'.
Article moved to 'Axion Estin' - whatever the title (and I don't know if Dostoyno ye should be it :) ), this is the correct form of the current title.
Whether we should follow the principle of English titles or transliterated Greek titles for icons is probably something that needs to be worked out as OW policy (for the record, I almost always support the former) - the current policy is that the most commonly used name for something should be used, whether that is English or transliterated Greek - this issue came up twice for the Orthros-turned-Matins article, and probably should be worked out here, too.
To respond to the history being tied to the name - this is something that needs to be taken into account in translation - I don't see how, for example, "Lady of the Myrtles" is an insufficient translation of 'Myrtidiotissa'.
As an aside, it's been the general practise to transliterate names that don't have an easily recognised alternative (Timotheos -> Timothy, for example, but Stylianos stays) and to translate titles (Profitis -> Prophet and Thavmatourgoi -> Wonderworkers), but I don't think there's any commonly-accepted convention on titles of icons as yet. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 02:59, February 5, 2008 (PST)
Hiya, look I do agree that transliteration is good, I think I have been immensely been misunderstood on this forum, especially by other Ops but my point is and you kind of say it too, you need to use "the most commonly used name for something should be used". Well, my observation is that (using your example of Lady of the Myrtle) the most common name over 2,000 years has been Myrtidiotissa not Lady of the Myrtle - and I am not saying this because I have some Greek-pushing agenda (This comment is for Father ASDamick who has completely mis-understood me as a person) ... my point is, this is meant to be an Encyclopedia, correct? Well, if say I was in China ... and I was doing a search on the icons ... and I looked up the Lady of the Myrtles ... let's hypothetically assume that I was so overwhelmed by the article and the icon I wanted to visit the original. So, I organise a trip to Greece to visit this ...if I ask all the locals their (since this is the origin of this particular icon) - excuse me, please direct me to the Lady of Myrtles ...t99.9% will have no idea what this tourist is wanting from them ... if however this icon was not from Greece and was from Serbia, I support the use of the name that was adopted in Serbia ..since the origin would be in that location ... IN PARANTHESES then it should have the transliterations ...this is just my opinion so i would like no one to attack me for having a different thought to the rest of this general group of Ops. Sorry. -- Vasiliki 19:03, February 5, 2008 (PST)
PS, another comment I wanted to make (without it being rude ...I really wish to stress that the tone in my 'text' is not intended to be aggressive or pushy it is definately calm and merely conversational) is that the NEED for transliteration is only recent in the whole scheme of the church and has become necessary in the last couple of decades due to the fact that the world is increasingly becoming 'anglosaxonised' and is part of a global push to remove cultural identity (yes, I am a Zionist - Free-mason - antichrist theorist). As an Orthodox I resist this push for unification as I know it is the predecessor of the anti ... sorry guys, keep culture in the Orthodox church ... THAT IS what has kept it alive for the rest of the world to appreciate and enjoy ..today! -- Vasiliki 19:12, February 5, 2008 (PST)
A similar number would not know what a tourist was talking about if they said 'where's the priest' or, for that matter, 'excuse me, please direct me to'. Any tourist or pilgrim should expect to use that country's language (or a tour guide) to get around.
But, that's not the issue - this isn't a tourist guide, and part of establishing a relevance between icon and potential venerator (which most people in our country are) is to translate the name.
The need for translation and transliteration has been around ever since the Apostles. There are still words in the Liturgy that remain untranslated in any language (Hosanna and Amen spring to mind). Admittedly, I also remember a lecturer who would constantly pronounce 'Θεοτοκος' as 'thi-OTta-kus' which drove me nuts for weeks...
I'm also unconvinced that the world is any much more Anglo-Saxonised than before - Americanised, maybe (and one shouldn't confuse the two). But more importantly, transliterating would actually lead to what you fear, whereas translating keeps the integrity of the langauges. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 19:59, February 5, 2008 (PST)
Hi Pistevo, I think you may have convinced me :-) However, it does drive me a little nuts not to be able to see the 'original' name ... it just seems so authentic you know ... there is something mystical with the work Ierosolymitissa for example as opposed to finding a 'loose' translation to match it and then adopting it, however, if its the norm ... its the norm. What can I do or say ..if the Apostles did it ... who am I to think otherwise ... Just as an added comment, it doesnt personally bother me when I hear people mis-pronounce ..if anything I become so overwhelmed that people had the courage to attempt a language other than the one that they know ...its such an inspirational thing! Did you study Theology? -- Vasiliki 20:05, February 5, 2008 (PST)
There's no reason that the original couldn't be in the article as the name in another language (the Matins article, with others, provides ample precedent).
I wouldn't have had a big problem with the mispronounciation if it had been a real mispronounciation - like saying 'thee-oh-TOE-koss', for instance - but that was just treating it with the same rules that one would apply to an English word - it would kinda makes sense, if Theotokos was an English word...but it's kinda not! :)
At the time, I was a lowly Arts student who decided to do early Church history as an elective subject - being the only Orthodox student in the class was certainly a unique experience! I am studying Orthodox theology now, though. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 20:19, February 5, 2008 (PST)
Yes, I agree with the use of Parenthesis to include the translated variations of. I love Theology and have probably read every book under the sun ... but have never taken the initiative to study it in an official capacity ... Harvard University as an online Library where you can 'loan' archived thesis/articles but usually cost $16 per thesis/article ... really worth it though ... For example, I came across the apocalyptic prophecies of St Andrew the Fool for Christ and nearly fell of my chair! It turned out to be such an interesting read -- Vasiliki 20:29, February 5, 2008 (PST)
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