Talk:Orthodoxy in the Philippines

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=="clandestine and cultic"==
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This has been a pretty contentious article and discussion page, with lots of personal attacks and serious jurisdictional disputes. I'm really interested in a level-headed presenation of the facts of Orthodox church life on the ground here. These have been very hard to come by! It seems difficult to know who to trust in this particular situation. Ina ny case, for now, I propose we start here with a clean slate and see if we can make a better go of it a second time around. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 21:32, December 17, 2007 (PST)
This language is pretty strong -- maybe it would be helpful to have more identification here -- what are these groups like, what are they called? "Clandestine and cultic" should have some documentation to fill it out, otherwise this language is just regarded as personal opinion. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])
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=="clandestine and cultic"==
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Dear Father John,
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The online dictionary defined the word '''clandestine''' as "'''existing or operating in a way so as to ensure complete concealment and confidentiality'''" ([http://www.answers.com/topic/clandestine]). The American Heritage Dictionary defined the word '''cult''' as "a religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or '''false''', with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. The followers of such a religion or sect.  Listed below are registered churches in the Philippines claiming to be "Orthodox". No other information can be obtained from the internet except the name of their church. I have talked with some members and clergymen of these "orthodox" groups years back while I was searchin for the true Orthodox Church and I found out that they professed the Hindu, Buddhist and "New Age" doctrine of Karma and '''Reincarnation'''. They also believed in "mediums" (i.e., Christ, God the Father, the Holy Spirit, the Theotokos, the Child Jesus etc. possesing their spiritual leaders (priests and bishops) thereby receiving from them the power to heal, prophesy etc.).
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1. ARCHBISHOP ISAAC NEE DANIEL L. GOROSPE EASTERN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC MISSION CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, INC. 
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2. ARCHBISHOP JAMES NEE LEON C. CACHERO JR. INTL. ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, INC. 
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3. ARCHBISHOP PATRIARCH ABRAHAM JOHN PAUL I NEE ARTEMIO FRANCISCO.
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4. PAULINO CANETE-PINERO D.D. OF THE ORTHODOX MISSIONARY FATHERS.
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5. BISHOP OF LOS BANOS OF THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH INC.
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6. BISHOP PRIMATE OF THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH INC.
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7. BISHOP UNITED ORTHODOX APOSTOLIC EASTERN CHURCH, INC.
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8. CONGREGATION OF ORTHODOX CATHOLIC MISSIONARIES INC. 
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9. DIOCESAN BISHOP OF THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CANONICAL DIOCESE OF THE PHILS. INC. 
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10. DIVINE ORTHODOX CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST INC.
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11. FAR EAST ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH INC.
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12. GOVERNING HIERARCH OF THE ASIAN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH INC. 
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13. HOLY ORTHODOX CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST INC. 
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14. KATHOLIKOS ARCHIEREUS OF ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH ORD. IN PHILS. 
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15. ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH OF AMERICAS & ASIA INC.
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16. ORTHODOX CATHOLIC MISSION INCORPORATED 
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17. ORTHODOX CHURCH IN THE PHILIPPINES, INC. 
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18. PHIL. ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH INC.
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19. PHIL. PATRIARCH OF THE HOLY ORTHODOX CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST INC. 
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20. PRESIDING PRESBYTER OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH IN THE PHILS. INC. 
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21. PRIMATE OF THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH INC. 
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22. SAN AGUSTIN III (DASMARINAS CAVITE) RESIDENTS & MEMBERS OF INTL. ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. 
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23. SOVEREIGN ORDER OF THE ORTHODOX HOSPITALLERS OF ST. JOHN.
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24. ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH, INC. 
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25. UNITED ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN CHURCH OF GOD IN THE PHILS., INC.
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26. WESTERN AND EASTERN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH MISSIONARIES SOCIETY INC. 
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27. WESTERN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE PHILS., INC. 
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'''Source''': The Philippine Securities and Exchange Commission
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[http://www.sec.gov.ph/]
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There are other unregistered clandestine and cultic "churches" claiming to be orthodox which are not included in the above list.
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Father, since you find the language "pretty strong" please provide a more appropriate alternative. Thank you very much. [[User:Filipino|Filipino]] 21:27, June 7, 2007 (PDT)
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::Thanks, Filipino - it's very interesting, if not helpful, to see all of those groups. Perhaps strong language is appropriate, but maybe they are not all clandestine or cultic according to your definitions? Definitely they breed confusion, and it can be good to identify groups to avoid. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])
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::Dear Father John I already removed the "strong language". Thank you for your unbiased insight and kind remarks.
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[[User:Filipino|Filipino]] 10:24, June 8, 2007 (PDT)
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If they are clandestine as you say "Filipino, then why are they listed with the Philippine Exchange Commission, have been recognized as religious entities by the Philippine government, and some of these groups are members of the National Council of Churches in the Philippines. Please stop politicizing this entry. ---Marcus
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:The term "clandestine" has been removed. The groups are what they are - it isn't really of concern to us here. Marcus, can you provide any solid documentation related to the arrival of the Lebanese families you metioned in the 1800's? Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])
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== Antiochians in the Philippines ==
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It appears that there is some polemic here, with Marcus representing the Antiochian side and Filipino representing the Greek side. Both have provided different histories of the origins of Orthodoxy in the Philippines, which each seem to bolster jurisdictional claims.
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It's difficult for me to imagine that Antiochians aren't in communion with Greeks -- is this really the case? Was the deacon merely representing himself, or was he sent by his bishop?
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I can definitely see the canonical problems here, though. It may be helpful to keep in mind that these canonical issues persist throughout the "diaspora" - hence the historical interest in claiming first landing in the country. There is no doubt that these conflicts will remain with us for some time. My hope is that on the wiki we can seek to describe the situation as completely and dispassionately as possible, with attention to the historical circumstance and competing canonical claims. We are definitely biased towards the what we call "Mainstream Chalcedonian Orthodoxy", i.e. those churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates (with the exception of Rome), but I would prefer to remain as neutral as possible in the midst of inter-jurisdictional disputes such as this. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 10:45, June 8, 2007 (PDT)
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Chris Gain is not a deacon within the Antiochian Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand or any Orthdox Church. His views do not represent the views of any canonical bishop in Australia --Marcus
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Latest revision as of 21:32, December 17, 2007

This has been a pretty contentious article and discussion page, with lots of personal attacks and serious jurisdictional disputes. I'm really interested in a level-headed presenation of the facts of Orthodox church life on the ground here. These have been very hard to come by! It seems difficult to know who to trust in this particular situation. Ina ny case, for now, I propose we start here with a clean slate and see if we can make a better go of it a second time around. — FrJohn (talk) 21:32, December 17, 2007 (PST)

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