Talk:Moses the Black

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Does anybody think that this page might be better served if St. Moses is referred to as "the Ethiopian" and not "the Black"?
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Does anybody think that this page might be better served if St. Moses is referred to as "the Ethiopian" and not "the Black"?<small>—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Andreas|Andreas]] ([[User talk:Andreas|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Andreas|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small>
 
:FWIW, in Greek the title is actually 'the Ethiopian'.  (also, pls remember to sign your posts with four tildes, as so: '<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>') -- &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 02:07, July 31, 2006 (CDT)
 
:FWIW, in Greek the title is actually 'the Ethiopian'.  (also, pls remember to sign your posts with four tildes, as so: '<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>') -- &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 02:07, July 31, 2006 (CDT)
::He is also very well known as Moses the Black, even in the Roman Catholic Calendar, e.g., [http://www.catholic-forum.com/Saints/saintm34.htm], and also Eastern Orthodox Calendars/sites, e.g., [http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=181],[http://www.stmaryofegypt.net/saints_moses.shtml]. Google: "moses the black": 13,900 - "moses the ethiopian": 9,530 as at 31 July 2006.
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::He is also very well known as Moses the Black, even in the Roman Catholic Calendar, e.g., [http://www.catholic-forum.com/Saints/saintm34.htm], and also Eastern Orthodox Calendars/sites, e.g., [http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=181],[http://www.stmaryofegypt.net/saints_moses.shtml]. Google: "moses the black": 13,900 - "moses the ethiopian": 9,530 as at 31 July 2006.<small>—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Arbible|Arbible]] ([[User talk:Arbible|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Arbible|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small>
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:Also true.  Yes, the article may be better served to title St Moses "the Ethiopian"; may be better served as "the Black".
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:However, a couple of things need to be kept in mind.  Firstly, using "the Ethiopian" because using 'black' is considered to be offensive to a specific group in a specific location would not, imho, be a valid reason for changing (nor, in the case of African Americans, necessarily true: [[w:African American]]; [[w:Black people]]).  Secondly, in terms of a missionary context, it would be better to stick with a larger title than to limit a saint to their country.  Thirdly (and most importantly), the standard in article naming is usually the most commonly accepted form; while 'St Moses the Black' is the title that I am most used to, 'St Moses the Ethiopian' is the variant that I have seen on a number of new icons.
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:On this most important of points, I do not have a ready answer, but only references - on the [http://members.optusnet.com.au/~goawa/lectionary.html Lectionary] of the [[Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia]], he is "St Moses the Ethiopian"; when you click on his link for his [http://home.iprimus.com.au/xenos/mosesblack.html Life], he is "St Moses the Black of Skete"; and the [http://home.iprimus.com.au/xenos/mosesblack.jpg icon on the page of his Life] appears to be "ο αιθιοψ" (which, I think, is trying to be 'the Ethiopian' - see it larger on [http://www.trinitystores.com/.php/catalog.php4?image=71 this site]).
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:The obvious copout is just to rename this article to something like ''Moses (ascetic of Scetis)''; but perhaps, with other opinions, we may be able to reach a consensus. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 04:17, July 31, 2006 (CDT)
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:: Also, it may be of help to note that ''Ethiopia'' in Roman times referred to the entire continent of Africa rather than to the modern-day country by that name.  (And ''Africa'' referred to an area roughly congruent with modern Tunisia.)  ''The Ethiopian'' in hagiography essentially means "the African," but of course ''St. Moses the African'' isn't on anyone's calendars.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font color="blue"><b><i>Dcn. Andrew</i></b></font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Randompage|<font color="blue">random</font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</sup> 08:25, July 31, 2006 (CDT)

Latest revision as of 05:28, July 31, 2006

Does anybody think that this page might be better served if St. Moses is referred to as "the Ethiopian" and not "the Black"?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andreas (talkcontribs) .

FWIW, in Greek the title is actually 'the Ethiopian'. (also, pls remember to sign your posts with four tildes, as so: '~~~~') -- — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 02:07, July 31, 2006 (CDT)
He is also very well known as Moses the Black, even in the Roman Catholic Calendar, e.g., [1], and also Eastern Orthodox Calendars/sites, e.g., [2],[3]. Google: "moses the black": 13,900 - "moses the ethiopian": 9,530 as at 31 July 2006.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arbible (talkcontribs) .
Also true. Yes, the article may be better served to title St Moses "the Ethiopian"; may be better served as "the Black".
However, a couple of things need to be kept in mind. Firstly, using "the Ethiopian" because using 'black' is considered to be offensive to a specific group in a specific location would not, imho, be a valid reason for changing (nor, in the case of African Americans, necessarily true: w:African American; w:Black people). Secondly, in terms of a missionary context, it would be better to stick with a larger title than to limit a saint to their country. Thirdly (and most importantly), the standard in article naming is usually the most commonly accepted form; while 'St Moses the Black' is the title that I am most used to, 'St Moses the Ethiopian' is the variant that I have seen on a number of new icons.
On this most important of points, I do not have a ready answer, but only references - on the Lectionary of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, he is "St Moses the Ethiopian"; when you click on his link for his Life, he is "St Moses the Black of Skete"; and the icon on the page of his Life appears to be "ο αιθιοψ" (which, I think, is trying to be 'the Ethiopian' - see it larger on this site).
The obvious copout is just to rename this article to something like Moses (ascetic of Scetis); but perhaps, with other opinions, we may be able to reach a consensus. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 04:17, July 31, 2006 (CDT)
Also, it may be of help to note that Ethiopia in Roman times referred to the entire continent of Africa rather than to the modern-day country by that name. (And Africa referred to an area roughly congruent with modern Tunisia.) The Ethiopian in hagiography essentially means "the African," but of course St. Moses the African isn't on anyone's calendars. —Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 08:25, July 31, 2006 (CDT)
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