Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow

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:I will thank the moderators if this closes the matter, and such erroneous language is not allowed to be reintroduced.
 
:I will thank the moderators if this closes the matter, and such erroneous language is not allowed to be reintroduced.
 
:- [[User: Willibrord]]
 
:- [[User: Willibrord]]
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I have three basic responses. First, without going into how Orthodox Christians should act, one should – on a purely secular level -- note that attributing malice as a possible motive is not a good way to foster communication or progress in the editing of articles, not to mention bad manners.
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Second, since last writing about this, I have obtained a copy of the OM. I think it is superior to the SASB in numerous ways. That being said, I still find the attempt to marginalize the SASB as “a parish prayer book” a little puzzling. Despite previous denials, the SASB is an authorized book of the Antiochian Archdiocese as clearly indicated by the letter from Metropolitan Philip included in the front of the book. There is no relevant difference in the wording of the Metropolitan’s letter in the OM from his letter in the SASB. Someone in the AWRV may not like the SASB, but to suggest (as has been done before) that the SASB is not an authorized service book it to imply that the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese does not have the authority to decide which service books are approved, or that perhaps he is acting “in ignorance or malice.” None of these possibilities are plausible.
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Third, as to the claim that all of the additions recommended by the Russian Commission’s Observations have been made to the Liturgy of St Tikhon and to the hours, an evaluation of the claim requires more than a checklist of items mentioned in the concluding paragraph. One must read what comes before that paragraph to understand the context of the additions.
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As for the invocation of the Saints, I did in fact quote from the principal intercessions of the Liturgy, i.e., in the prayer “for the whole state of Christ’s Church,” the complete reference – “blessed Mary and all Thy Saints….”
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Moreover, the Observations – in the section on Morning and Evening Prayer –say: “But at the same time, while the recourse in prayer to the Most Holy Mother of God, to the Angel Hosts, and to the illustrious saints, the glorification and invocation of them, forms an essential part of Orthodox and Catholic worship, these things are entirely foreign to Anglican worship. It is absolutely necessary that there should be introduced into this worship some such prayers (or hymns) in one or another form and degree.”
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While the OM doesn’t include these hours, the SASB does contain Matins and Vespers, and neither has any additions of prayers or hymns to meet this requirement, which was termed “absolutely necessary” by the Commission. This one requirement that is clearly unmet falsifies the claim that “all” of the changes demanded by the Commission were made.
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A similar complaint and requirement is made concerning the Great Litany. The Observations say, “But examining it in connection with its origin, and comparing it with the Roman Catholic Litany from which it was derived, again under Lutheran influence, we clearly discern its protestant character, in that it does not contain the invocation of the Mother of God, of the spiritual Hosts and the Saints, who occupy a very prominent place amongst the Catholics, and even had a place (like prayers for the dead) in the first edition of 1544, though only in an abbreviated form in the shape of an invocation of saints en bloc, without particularizing names. In case of any full restoration of Orthodox beliefs, it would be timely and expedient to bring in again both the invocations and the prayers, as being characteristic of this kind of devotion.”
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Yet when one turns to the Great Litany (SASB, 51-55), one finds no mention of the Mother of God, the spiritual Hosts, or the Saints.
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As for the Confiteor, this is not a part of the liturgy proper (it comes before the Introit), and it has never been a part of any Book of Common Prayer, much less the 1989 BCP referenced in the Observations. Simply adding a Roman prayer (one that is foreign to the Anglican rite) does not seem adequate. Moreover, why borrow a Roman prayer to make the BCP more Orthodox? A mention of the Mother of God, one angel, and three saints (John the Baptist, Peter, & Paul in the SASB Confiteor on pp. 61-62) seems less robust that “the glorification and invocation” of “the Most Holy Mother of God, … the Angel Hosts, and … the illustrious saints.” --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:42, June 25, 2008 (UTC)
  
  

Revision as of 08:42, June 25, 2008

SOME changes were implemented

Only some of the recommendations made by the Moscow Commission were made by the Antiochians and ROCOR. This shouldn't be controversial. --Fr Lev 16:22, February 12, 2008 (PST)

The use of "some" is misleading; all recommendations for the liturgy (and hours) were made by both Antioch and ROCOR (and Alexandria, and Moscow).
Certain [i]vagantes[/i] use this language to cast aspersions on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, claiming it is invalid, because it did not implement all the recommendations of the 1904 Observations...which is false. - User: Willibrord


Only SOME of the changes were made; that is a simple fact. I am not a vagante nor have I claimed the liturgy in question is "invalid," but one need not make false claims such as the one that ALL of the recommendations were adopted. --Fr Lev 17:34, February 13, 2008 (PST) Before Willbrord changes my edits again, perhaps he could read the Observations and compare them to the liturgy. --Fr Lev 07:07, February 14, 2008 (PST)

From what I recall from having read about this some time ago, the Observations noted the inadequate language of sacrifice in the oblation of the anaphora, but nothing was changed. One of their biggest complaints was the compromising language of the Prayer Book. The classic example of this is in the words for administering communion. The "Catholic" 1549 BCP had "The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life." The "Protestant" 1552 replaced these words with "Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving." The Elizabethan compromise book of 1559 intended to allow Catholic- and Protestant-minded Anglicans to both use the BCP simply combined the two sets of words. This compromise language is maintained in the Tikhon text. The penultimate paragraph of the Observations has some choice words about this compromise approach. I also recall that the Observations wanted a great deal more "glorification and invocation" of the Saints, which became only a reference in the intercessions to "blessed Mary and all Thy Saints." --Fr Lev 08:27, February 14, 2008 (PST)

ALL (not some) of the recommendations of the Observations for the Liturgy and Hours have been implemented, and to say otherwise is simply false. The Observations list all required changes in the last paragraph, and all relating to the Liturgy or Hours have been made. St. Tikhon's Liturgy includes the "glorification and invocation" (to borrow your quotation) of:
- in the Confiteor (clearly printed in both The Orthodox Missal and the St. Andrew Service Book): "Blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, [and] all the saints";
- in the Suscipe Sancta Trinitas: "blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, of blessed John (the) Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all Thy saints."
- in Nobis Quoque Peccatoribus: "thy holy Apostles and Martyrs: John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucia, Agnes, Cecelia, Anastasia," and all saints; and
- in the Libera Nos (Again, in both TOM and SASB): a supplication for "the intercession of the blessed and glorious Mary, Ever-Virgin Mother of God, of Thy blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, Andrew, and all Thy saints."
All of these prayers are prayed throughout the Antiochian WR Vicariate and are included in TOM, but the SASB (along with its other irregularities) does not include any of the priest's silent prayers -- perhaps because the SASB is a simple parish prayer book and not a priest's Missal, much less the Vicariate's official text of the Mass. But even in the SASB, "glorification and invocation" of the saints was never "only a reference in the intercessions to 'blessed Mary and all Thy Saints.'" Your allegations demonstrate either ignorance or malice.
The Observations -- which say the Gallican Liturgy makes reference to sacrifice only "somewhat vaguely" -- state the idea of sacrifice must be "inserted...into the rite of the Liturgy," though it does not specify the canon proper; the idea could be expressed, as in the Gallican Rite, in other places. In St. Tikhon's Liturgy, there is an abundance of sacrificial references in the canon and without. The priest's offertory prayers (specifically the In Spiritu Humilitatis and Veni Sanctificator, as well as the Suscipe)and the Orate, Fratres clearly call the Eucharist a "sacrifice." The priest also prays the Placeat Tibi before the blessing, beseeching, "grant that this sacrifice which I, unworthy that I am, have offered in the sight of Thy majesty, may be acceptable unto Thee...."
The Ecce Agnus Dei and added Pre-Communion Prayers make the Real Presence explicit - no Protestant or Zwinglian would be comfortable saying such things! Again, these are found in both TOM and the SASB.
These recommendations are no less (and no less obviously) fulfilled in The English Liturgy.
Of course, the Observations left implementation to Church authority; they end by acknowleding, "since the detailed changes...can be carried out only on the spot, in America, in correspondence with existing demands and conditions" the Observations "will thus serve in the negotiations as materials for the determination in detail of the conditions on which Anglicans disposed to Orthodoxy can be received."
Still, it is a demonstrable fact that all changes of St. Tikhon's Liturgy and Hours have been made by Antioch, Moscow, Alexandria, and (in Australia) ROCOR. The canonical (or non-canonical) status of L'ECOF doesn't enter into this discussion; readily verifiable facts do.
I will thank the moderators if this closes the matter, and such erroneous language is not allowed to be reintroduced.
- User: Willibrord


I have three basic responses. First, without going into how Orthodox Christians should act, one should – on a purely secular level -- note that attributing malice as a possible motive is not a good way to foster communication or progress in the editing of articles, not to mention bad manners.

Second, since last writing about this, I have obtained a copy of the OM. I think it is superior to the SASB in numerous ways. That being said, I still find the attempt to marginalize the SASB as “a parish prayer book” a little puzzling. Despite previous denials, the SASB is an authorized book of the Antiochian Archdiocese as clearly indicated by the letter from Metropolitan Philip included in the front of the book. There is no relevant difference in the wording of the Metropolitan’s letter in the OM from his letter in the SASB. Someone in the AWRV may not like the SASB, but to suggest (as has been done before) that the SASB is not an authorized service book it to imply that the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese does not have the authority to decide which service books are approved, or that perhaps he is acting “in ignorance or malice.” None of these possibilities are plausible.

Third, as to the claim that all of the additions recommended by the Russian Commission’s Observations have been made to the Liturgy of St Tikhon and to the hours, an evaluation of the claim requires more than a checklist of items mentioned in the concluding paragraph. One must read what comes before that paragraph to understand the context of the additions.

As for the invocation of the Saints, I did in fact quote from the principal intercessions of the Liturgy, i.e., in the prayer “for the whole state of Christ’s Church,” the complete reference – “blessed Mary and all Thy Saints….”

Moreover, the Observations – in the section on Morning and Evening Prayer –say: “But at the same time, while the recourse in prayer to the Most Holy Mother of God, to the Angel Hosts, and to the illustrious saints, the glorification and invocation of them, forms an essential part of Orthodox and Catholic worship, these things are entirely foreign to Anglican worship. It is absolutely necessary that there should be introduced into this worship some such prayers (or hymns) in one or another form and degree.”

While the OM doesn’t include these hours, the SASB does contain Matins and Vespers, and neither has any additions of prayers or hymns to meet this requirement, which was termed “absolutely necessary” by the Commission. This one requirement that is clearly unmet falsifies the claim that “all” of the changes demanded by the Commission were made.

A similar complaint and requirement is made concerning the Great Litany. The Observations say, “But examining it in connection with its origin, and comparing it with the Roman Catholic Litany from which it was derived, again under Lutheran influence, we clearly discern its protestant character, in that it does not contain the invocation of the Mother of God, of the spiritual Hosts and the Saints, who occupy a very prominent place amongst the Catholics, and even had a place (like prayers for the dead) in the first edition of 1544, though only in an abbreviated form in the shape of an invocation of saints en bloc, without particularizing names. In case of any full restoration of Orthodox beliefs, it would be timely and expedient to bring in again both the invocations and the prayers, as being characteristic of this kind of devotion.”

Yet when one turns to the Great Litany (SASB, 51-55), one finds no mention of the Mother of God, the spiritual Hosts, or the Saints.

As for the Confiteor, this is not a part of the liturgy proper (it comes before the Introit), and it has never been a part of any Book of Common Prayer, much less the 1989 BCP referenced in the Observations. Simply adding a Roman prayer (one that is foreign to the Anglican rite) does not seem adequate. Moreover, why borrow a Roman prayer to make the BCP more Orthodox? A mention of the Mother of God, one angel, and three saints (John the Baptist, Peter, & Paul in the SASB Confiteor on pp. 61-62) seems less robust that “the glorification and invocation” of “the Most Holy Mother of God, … the Angel Hosts, and … the illustrious saints.” --Fr Lev 15:42, June 25, 2008 (UTC)


Differences between the Orthodox Missal and the St Andrew's Service Book

To repeat a question I posted on another page: since Willbrord has made a point of saying that almost all AWRV parishes use the Orthodox Missal and not the St Andrew's Service Book, perhaps he would be kind enough to specify what differences there are between the versions of the two eucharistic liturgies and why they matter, i.e., why is the OM version so preferable to the SASB? --Fr Lev 07:05, February 14, 2008 (PST)

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