Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow

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From what I recall from having read about this some time ago, the ''Observations'' noted the inadequate language of sacrifice in the oblation of the anaphora, but nothing was changed. One of their biggest complaints was the compromising language of the Prayer Book. The classic example of this is in the words for administering communion. The "Catholic" 1549 BCP had "The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life." The "Protestant" 1552 replaced these words with "Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving." The Elizabethan compromise book of 1559 intended to allow Catholic- and Protestant-minded Anglicans to both use the BCP simply combined the two sets of words. This compromise language is maintained in the Tikhon text. The penultimate paragraph of the ''Observations'' has some choice words about this compromise approach. I also recall that the ''Observations'' wanted a great deal more "glorification and invocation" of the Saints, which became only a reference in the intercessions to "blessed Mary and all Thy Saints." --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:27, February 14, 2008 (PST)
 
From what I recall from having read about this some time ago, the ''Observations'' noted the inadequate language of sacrifice in the oblation of the anaphora, but nothing was changed. One of their biggest complaints was the compromising language of the Prayer Book. The classic example of this is in the words for administering communion. The "Catholic" 1549 BCP had "The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life." The "Protestant" 1552 replaced these words with "Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving." The Elizabethan compromise book of 1559 intended to allow Catholic- and Protestant-minded Anglicans to both use the BCP simply combined the two sets of words. This compromise language is maintained in the Tikhon text. The penultimate paragraph of the ''Observations'' has some choice words about this compromise approach. I also recall that the ''Observations'' wanted a great deal more "glorification and invocation" of the Saints, which became only a reference in the intercessions to "blessed Mary and all Thy Saints." --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:27, February 14, 2008 (PST)
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:'''ALL''' (not some) of the recommendations of the [http://anglicanhistory.org/alcuin/tract12.html ''Observations''] ''for the Liturgy and Hours'' have been implemented, and to say otherwise is simply false. The ''Observations'' list all required changes in the last paragraph, and all relating to the Liturgy or Hours have been made. St. Tikhon's Liturgy includes the "glorification and invocation" (to borrow your quotation) of:
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::- in the '''''Confiteor''''' (clearly printed in both ''The Orthodox Missal'' and the [http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/dnn/Literature/tabid/63/Default.aspx ''St. Andrew Service Book'']): "Blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, [and] all the saints";
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::- in the '''''Suscipe Sancta Trinitas''''': "blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, of blessed John (the) Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all Thy saints."
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::- in '''''Nobis Quoque Peccatoribus''''': "thy holy Apostles and Martyrs: John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucia, Agnes, Cecelia, Anastasia," and all saints; and
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::- in the '''''Libera Nos''''' (Again, in both TOM and SASB): a supplication for "the intercession of the blessed and glorious Mary, Ever-Virgin Mother of God, of Thy blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, Andrew, and all Thy saints."
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:All of these prayers are prayed ''throughout'' the Antiochian WR Vicariate and are included in TOM, but the SASB (along with its other irregularities) does not include any of the priest's silent prayers -- perhaps because the SASB is a simple parish prayer book and not a priest's Missal, much less the Vicariate's official text of the Mass. But even in the SASB, "glorification and invocation" of the saints was never ''"only a reference in the intercessions to 'blessed Mary and all Thy Saints.'"'' Your allegations demonstrate either ignorance or malice.
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:The ''Observations'' -- which say the Gallican Liturgy makes reference to sacrifice only "somewhat vaguely" -- state the idea of sacrifice must be "inserted...into the rite of the Liturgy," though it does not specify the canon proper; the idea could be expressed, as in the Gallican Rite, in other places. In St. Tikhon's Liturgy, there is an abundance of sacrificial references in the canon and without. The priest's offertory prayers (specifically the ''In Spiritu Humilitatis'' and ''Veni Sanctificator'', as well as the ''Suscipe'')and the ''Orate, Fratres'' clearly call the Eucharist a "sacrifice." The priest also prays the ''Placeat Tibi'' before the blessing, beseeching, "grant that this sacrifice which I, unworthy that I am, have offered in the sight of Thy majesty, may be acceptable unto Thee...."
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: The ''Ecce Agnus Dei'' and added Pre-Communion Prayers make the Real Presence explicit - no Protestant or Zwinglian would be comfortable saying such things! Again, these are found in both TOM and the SASB.
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:These recommendations are no less (and no less obviously) fulfilled in [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm The English Liturgy].
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:Of course, the ''Observations'' left implementation to Church authority; they end by acknowleding, "since the detailed changes...can be carried out only on the spot, in America, in correspondence with existing demands and conditions" the ''Observations'' "will thus serve in the negotiations as materials for the determination in detail of the conditions on which Anglicans disposed to Orthodoxy can be received."
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:Still, it is a demonstrable fact that all changes of St. Tikhon's Liturgy and Hours have been made by Antioch, Moscow, Alexandria, and (in Australia) ROCOR. The canonical (or non-canonical) status of L'ECOF doesn't enter into this discussion; readily verifiable facts do.
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:I will thank the moderators if this closes the matter, and such erroneous language is not allowed to be reintroduced.
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:- [[User: Willibrord]]
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== Differences between the Orthodox Missal and the St Andrew's Service Book ==
 
== Differences between the Orthodox Missal and the St Andrew's Service Book ==
  
 
To repeat a question I posted on another page: since Willbrord has made a point of saying that almost all AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal'' and not the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', perhaps he would be kind enough to specify what differences there are between the versions of the two eucharistic liturgies and why they matter, i.e., why is the OM version so preferable to the SASB? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 07:05, February 14, 2008 (PST)
 
To repeat a question I posted on another page: since Willbrord has made a point of saying that almost all AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal'' and not the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', perhaps he would be kind enough to specify what differences there are between the versions of the two eucharistic liturgies and why they matter, i.e., why is the OM version so preferable to the SASB? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 07:05, February 14, 2008 (PST)

Revision as of 14:17, June 24, 2008

SOME changes were implemented

Only some of the recommendations made by the Moscow Commission were made by the Antiochians and ROCOR. This shouldn't be controversial. --Fr Lev 16:22, February 12, 2008 (PST)

The use of "some" is misleading; all recommendations for the liturgy (and hours) were made by both Antioch and ROCOR (and Alexandria, and Moscow).
Certain [i]vagantes[/i] use this language to cast aspersions on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, claiming it is invalid, because it did not implement all the recommendations of the 1904 Observations...which is false. - User: Willibrord


Only SOME of the changes were made; that is a simple fact. I am not a vagante nor have I claimed the liturgy in question is "invalid," but one need not make false claims such as the one that ALL of the recommendations were adopted. --Fr Lev 17:34, February 13, 2008 (PST) Before Willbrord changes my edits again, perhaps he could read the Observations and compare them to the liturgy. --Fr Lev 07:07, February 14, 2008 (PST)

From what I recall from having read about this some time ago, the Observations noted the inadequate language of sacrifice in the oblation of the anaphora, but nothing was changed. One of their biggest complaints was the compromising language of the Prayer Book. The classic example of this is in the words for administering communion. The "Catholic" 1549 BCP had "The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life." The "Protestant" 1552 replaced these words with "Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving." The Elizabethan compromise book of 1559 intended to allow Catholic- and Protestant-minded Anglicans to both use the BCP simply combined the two sets of words. This compromise language is maintained in the Tikhon text. The penultimate paragraph of the Observations has some choice words about this compromise approach. I also recall that the Observations wanted a great deal more "glorification and invocation" of the Saints, which became only a reference in the intercessions to "blessed Mary and all Thy Saints." --Fr Lev 08:27, February 14, 2008 (PST)

ALL (not some) of the recommendations of the Observations for the Liturgy and Hours have been implemented, and to say otherwise is simply false. The Observations list all required changes in the last paragraph, and all relating to the Liturgy or Hours have been made. St. Tikhon's Liturgy includes the "glorification and invocation" (to borrow your quotation) of:
- in the Confiteor (clearly printed in both The Orthodox Missal and the St. Andrew Service Book): "Blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, [and] all the saints";
- in the Suscipe Sancta Trinitas: "blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, of blessed John (the) Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all Thy saints."
- in Nobis Quoque Peccatoribus: "thy holy Apostles and Martyrs: John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucia, Agnes, Cecelia, Anastasia," and all saints; and
- in the Libera Nos (Again, in both TOM and SASB): a supplication for "the intercession of the blessed and glorious Mary, Ever-Virgin Mother of God, of Thy blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, Andrew, and all Thy saints."
All of these prayers are prayed throughout the Antiochian WR Vicariate and are included in TOM, but the SASB (along with its other irregularities) does not include any of the priest's silent prayers -- perhaps because the SASB is a simple parish prayer book and not a priest's Missal, much less the Vicariate's official text of the Mass. But even in the SASB, "glorification and invocation" of the saints was never "only a reference in the intercessions to 'blessed Mary and all Thy Saints.'" Your allegations demonstrate either ignorance or malice.
The Observations -- which say the Gallican Liturgy makes reference to sacrifice only "somewhat vaguely" -- state the idea of sacrifice must be "inserted...into the rite of the Liturgy," though it does not specify the canon proper; the idea could be expressed, as in the Gallican Rite, in other places. In St. Tikhon's Liturgy, there is an abundance of sacrificial references in the canon and without. The priest's offertory prayers (specifically the In Spiritu Humilitatis and Veni Sanctificator, as well as the Suscipe)and the Orate, Fratres clearly call the Eucharist a "sacrifice." The priest also prays the Placeat Tibi before the blessing, beseeching, "grant that this sacrifice which I, unworthy that I am, have offered in the sight of Thy majesty, may be acceptable unto Thee...."
The Ecce Agnus Dei and added Pre-Communion Prayers make the Real Presence explicit - no Protestant or Zwinglian would be comfortable saying such things! Again, these are found in both TOM and the SASB.
These recommendations are no less (and no less obviously) fulfilled in The English Liturgy.
Of course, the Observations left implementation to Church authority; they end by acknowleding, "since the detailed changes...can be carried out only on the spot, in America, in correspondence with existing demands and conditions" the Observations "will thus serve in the negotiations as materials for the determination in detail of the conditions on which Anglicans disposed to Orthodoxy can be received."
Still, it is a demonstrable fact that all changes of St. Tikhon's Liturgy and Hours have been made by Antioch, Moscow, Alexandria, and (in Australia) ROCOR. The canonical (or non-canonical) status of L'ECOF doesn't enter into this discussion; readily verifiable facts do.
I will thank the moderators if this closes the matter, and such erroneous language is not allowed to be reintroduced.
- User: Willibrord


Differences between the Orthodox Missal and the St Andrew's Service Book

To repeat a question I posted on another page: since Willbrord has made a point of saying that almost all AWRV parishes use the Orthodox Missal and not the St Andrew's Service Book, perhaps he would be kind enough to specify what differences there are between the versions of the two eucharistic liturgies and why they matter, i.e., why is the OM version so preferable to the SASB? --Fr Lev 07:05, February 14, 2008 (PST)

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