Talk:Kliros

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(New page: My husband and I are under the impression that "κλήρος" means "clergy." See also Category:Clergy on the Greek OrthodoxWiki. He recognized the...)
 
(1 Peter 5:3)
 
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My husband and I are under the impression that "κλήρος" means "clergy."  See also [[:el:Κατηγορία:Κλήρος|Category:Clergy]] on the Greek OrthodoxWiki. He recognized the word from the [[Great Litany|litany]]: "...for all the ''Clergy'' and the Laity..." which in Greek is "...παντὸς τοῦ ''Κλήρου'' καὶ τοῦ Λαοῦ..."  Is this the same word, but an alternate definition?  —[[User:Magda|<b>magda</b>]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 15:44, February 15, 2008 (PST)
 
My husband and I are under the impression that "κλήρος" means "clergy."  See also [[:el:Κατηγορία:Κλήρος|Category:Clergy]] on the Greek OrthodoxWiki. He recognized the word from the [[Great Litany|litany]]: "...for all the ''Clergy'' and the Laity..." which in Greek is "...παντὸς τοῦ ''Κλήρου'' καὶ τοῦ Λαοῦ..."  Is this the same word, but an alternate definition?  —[[User:Magda|<b>magda</b>]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 15:44, February 15, 2008 (PST)
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:Now that you mention it - whenever I hear a reference to the chanter's stand, it's usually 'psaltiri' (don't know the Greek spelling) or, less commonly, 'κληρός' (kliros, with emphasis on second syllable).  Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the language could weigh in? (I personally stick with 'chanters stand'...) &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 16:15, February 15, 2008 (PST)
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All of my siblings and I grew up believing that our family was the only family in the U.S. with the surname "Kliros". Since I've had access to the internet I've been surprised to learn of how many people there are in this country with that name.
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In the case of my Grandfather who immigrated here from Crete in 1903, the surname for him which appears on the ship's manifest, is "Emanuel Klironomas"...but when he became a naturalized citizen, the documents show the surname was changed to "Kliros".
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We were told the officials who created the documents were still taking the first syllable of an immigrants last name, if it was too long or complicated for them to write out long hand or to spell properly while listening to these immigrants try to pronounce their names, and adding the last letter of the name to shortcut their amount of paper work. This inappropriate practice, it was said, occurred on Ellis Island at the turn of the century.
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As I continue to pursue the reason as to why the name was changed, I have run into dead end after dead end. I have learned however, that the actual meaning of the word "Kliros" is indeed "Clergy" and is the first reference in the "Greek/English, English/Greek" handbook of translations...the small pocket sized book that my grandfather had carried with him.
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On a side note, I would love to hear from anyone who could point me in the right direction how to find other family members who know or could provide family history for us to learn more about our own heritage. {{unsigned|1972vet}}
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: Some Googling (esp. images) reveals that ''kliros'' is also used to refer to a place in the church, i.e., where the choir or chanters stand (roughly analogous to the western term ''transept'').  No doubt this usage comes from choirs traditionally being made up of clergy (especially the lower clergy, i.e., the minor orders).  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:54, June 17, 2008 (UTC)
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::Isnt "Koine Greek" wonderful! A simple change in an accent could be the difference between the meaning of a word, an example is the word "Heiras" [sorry, I dont have Greek font to spell it in the greek], depending on where the accent is and the spelling of the "ei", could be the difference between a "pig", a "hand" and a "widow" :-) LOL, the same is relevant for "Kliros".
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::In the case of the word "Klironomos", which was the word on the side of the ship, it is a person who has "inhereted". -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]]
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::Sorry, to summarise "better" ... "Kliros" is one of three things, 1) The area of the church, as per the article 2) "Clergy", as per I Peter 5:3 and 3) "People" since they have "inherited" the "heritage" of the church Acts 1:26 ...
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- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:15, June 18, 2008 (UTC)
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== Acts 1:26 ==
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καὶ ἔδωκαν κλήρους αὐτοῖς, καὶ ἔπεσεν ὁ κλῆρος ἐπὶ Μαθθίαν, καὶ συνκατεψηφίσθη μετὰ τῶν ἕνδεκα ἀποστόλων
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As a matter of interest, in Acts 1:26, the word '''κληρος''' means "lot", determined by the voice, mood and tense of the verb, within its sentence: '''κληρος'''  noun - nominative singular masculine
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;kleros (klay'-ros) - ''heritage, inheritance, lot, part.'' (κλῆρον κλῆρος κλήρου κλήρους κλήρων)
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Probably from the Ancient Greek of '''klao''' (through the idea of using bits of wood, etc., for the purpose; a die (for drawing chances); by implication, a portion (as if so secured); by extension, an acquisition (especially a patrimony, figuratively) -- heritage, inheritance, lot, part.
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;klao (klah'-o) - ''break'' (ἔκλασα ἔκλασεν κλάσαι κλάσας κλῶμεν κλῶντές)
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A primary verb; to break (specially, of bread) --- break.
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This etymology is so fascinating, especially since the ancestor for "kliros" is "klao" - which is exactly what a priest does do during the liturgy - he breaks the bread AND, we Orthodox believe, that it is the clergy who are they who "inherit" the right to serve the liturgies ... am I a dag or what? -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:44, June 18, 2008 (UTC)
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== 1 Peter 5:3 ==
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; μηδ' ὡς κατακυριεύοντες τῶν κλήρων ἀλλὰ τύποι γινόμενοι τοῦ ποιμνίου
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In 1 Peter 5:3, the tense and mood of the verb does indeed refer to "clergy" ---> τῶν κλήρων
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I've also learned the name "Kliros" has a connection to a village by the same name in Cyprus Here:
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http://klirou.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=39
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...and has the meaning "bird" attached to it (as described on their history page) from the sound the bird makes repeatedly.
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...I am now curious to find out if I can, whether some member of my family at some time in history, was one of those early settlers.
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[[User:1972vet|1972vet]] 17:33, June 19, 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 09:33, June 19, 2008

My husband and I are under the impression that "κλήρος" means "clergy." See also Category:Clergy on the Greek OrthodoxWiki. He recognized the word from the litany: "...for all the Clergy and the Laity..." which in Greek is "...παντὸς τοῦ Κλήρου καὶ τοῦ Λαοῦ..." Is this the same word, but an alternate definition? —magda (talk) 15:44, February 15, 2008 (PST)

Now that you mention it - whenever I hear a reference to the chanter's stand, it's usually 'psaltiri' (don't know the Greek spelling) or, less commonly, 'κληρός' (kliros, with emphasis on second syllable). Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the language could weigh in? (I personally stick with 'chanters stand'...) — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 16:15, February 15, 2008 (PST)

All of my siblings and I grew up believing that our family was the only family in the U.S. with the surname "Kliros". Since I've had access to the internet I've been surprised to learn of how many people there are in this country with that name.

In the case of my Grandfather who immigrated here from Crete in 1903, the surname for him which appears on the ship's manifest, is "Emanuel Klironomas"...but when he became a naturalized citizen, the documents show the surname was changed to "Kliros".

We were told the officials who created the documents were still taking the first syllable of an immigrants last name, if it was too long or complicated for them to write out long hand or to spell properly while listening to these immigrants try to pronounce their names, and adding the last letter of the name to shortcut their amount of paper work. This inappropriate practice, it was said, occurred on Ellis Island at the turn of the century.

As I continue to pursue the reason as to why the name was changed, I have run into dead end after dead end. I have learned however, that the actual meaning of the word "Kliros" is indeed "Clergy" and is the first reference in the "Greek/English, English/Greek" handbook of translations...the small pocket sized book that my grandfather had carried with him.

On a side note, I would love to hear from anyone who could point me in the right direction how to find other family members who know or could provide family history for us to learn more about our own heritage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 1972vet (talkcontribs) .

Some Googling (esp. images) reveals that kliros is also used to refer to a place in the church, i.e., where the choir or chanters stand (roughly analogous to the western term transept). No doubt this usage comes from choirs traditionally being made up of clergy (especially the lower clergy, i.e., the minor orders). —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 18:54, June 17, 2008 (UTC)
Isnt "Koine Greek" wonderful! A simple change in an accent could be the difference between the meaning of a word, an example is the word "Heiras" [sorry, I dont have Greek font to spell it in the greek], depending on where the accent is and the spelling of the "ei", could be the difference between a "pig", a "hand" and a "widow" :-) LOL, the same is relevant for "Kliros".
In the case of the word "Klironomos", which was the word on the side of the ship, it is a person who has "inhereted". -- Vasiliki
Sorry, to summarise "better" ... "Kliros" is one of three things, 1) The area of the church, as per the article 2) "Clergy", as per I Peter 5:3 and 3) "People" since they have "inherited" the "heritage" of the church Acts 1:26 ...

- Vasiliki 01:15, June 18, 2008 (UTC)

Acts 1:26

καὶ ἔδωκαν κλήρους αὐτοῖς, καὶ ἔπεσεν ὁ κλῆρος ἐπὶ Μαθθίαν, καὶ συνκατεψηφίσθη μετὰ τῶν ἕνδεκα ἀποστόλων

As a matter of interest, in Acts 1:26, the word κληρος means "lot", determined by the voice, mood and tense of the verb, within its sentence: κληρος noun - nominative singular masculine

kleros (klay'-ros) - heritage, inheritance, lot, part. (κλῆρον κλῆρος κλήρου κλήρους κλήρων)

Probably from the Ancient Greek of klao (through the idea of using bits of wood, etc., for the purpose; a die (for drawing chances); by implication, a portion (as if so secured); by extension, an acquisition (especially a patrimony, figuratively) -- heritage, inheritance, lot, part.

klao (klah'-o) - break (ἔκλασα ἔκλασεν κλάσαι κλάσας κλῶμεν κλῶντές)

A primary verb; to break (specially, of bread) --- break.

This etymology is so fascinating, especially since the ancestor for "kliros" is "klao" - which is exactly what a priest does do during the liturgy - he breaks the bread AND, we Orthodox believe, that it is the clergy who are they who "inherit" the right to serve the liturgies ... am I a dag or what? -- Vasiliki 00:44, June 18, 2008 (UTC)

1 Peter 5:3

μηδ' ὡς κατακυριεύοντες τῶν κλήρων ἀλλὰ τύποι γινόμενοι τοῦ ποιμνίου

In 1 Peter 5:3, the tense and mood of the verb does indeed refer to "clergy" ---> τῶν κλήρων

I've also learned the name "Kliros" has a connection to a village by the same name in Cyprus Here: http://klirou.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=39 ...and has the meaning "bird" attached to it (as described on their history page) from the sound the bird makes repeatedly. ...I am now curious to find out if I can, whether some member of my family at some time in history, was one of those early settlers. 1972vet 17:33, June 19, 2008 (UTC)

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