Talk:John (Zizioulas) of Pergamon

Malicious addition

I must take exception to the newly added link to a page questioning whether Metropolitan John is "Orthodox." It is one thing to disagree with him or any other hierarch and theologian; it is quite another to post an offensive polemical piece like this. And it further slurs Western Christians as "Arians." --Fr Lev 19:15, May 28, 2007 (PDT)

Hi Fr. Lev, I'm inclined to agree with you about the tone of the article. I'm happy to have the kind of dialectic give and take though, since it characterizes so much of church life. I wonder if we can find another article with more intelligent criticisms? — FrJohn (talk)

I agree. I did not write what I did because I think Metropolitan John is the cat's pajamas when it comes to dogmatic theology (I don't). But when "heresy" starts getting tossed around, and when his theology is called "deceiftful," and when Western Christianity is all tarred with the heretical brush of Arianism, I think we have left he realm of the encyclopedic. --Fr Lev 04:07, May 29, 2007 (PDT)

I've removed the link. Links critical of particular subjects are fine, but the one in question is really simply a series of unsourced, undocumented assertions without any real examination of Metr. John's theology or writings. —Fr. Andrew ^talk contribs 05:35, May 29, 2007 (PDT)

I protest removal of the link. Various opinions need to be expressed freely. It is obvioius that contradicting opinions on Zliziouilas' works exist. In what fashion are these unfavorable opinions allowed to be presented here?

I'm not sure what to do now. Should I get the link bank, since nobody bothered to answer my question for two weeks?

Information regarding the Italian magazine - Italia Ortodossa

1. Official web site: http://www.italiaortodossa.it
2. Founded in 1977, by the Fr. George Arletti of Modena, Italy.
3. Responsible director: Georgios Karalis.
4. In 1999, magazine gained recognition of all Orthodox jurisdictions in Italy.
5. Director Georgios Karalis published 4 books so far (Church: Therapy for the Disease of the Man, pp.171; The Voice of the Fathers, pp. 225), and organized 3 conventions.
6. His book is listed alongside other Orthodox authors like V. Lossky, J. Popovic, D. Staniloae, P. Evdokimov, etc. on the official website of the Orthodox parish in Milan, Italy: http://www.ortodossia.info

Based on all of the above facts, magazine Italia Ortodossa is valid and reliable academic source, that should be refrenced in this article. Please review your decision. Thank you.

Cebactokpatop 05:41, February 28, 2008 (PST)

More malice

Most of what is listed under "academic criticism" would not pass muster in a community college, must less a serious university or theological institute. This is simply an attempt to discredit a highly-regarded bishop and theologian of the Orthodox Church. Trying to establish the credentials of the Italian magazine is comical, especially when the writer seeks to establish the credibility of the magazine's director because his books are listed on a website along with Lossky, etc. I tried cleaning up some of the obvious polemical language, but this kind of sniping doesn't befit an encyclopedia -- it belongs, if anywhere, in polemical magazines such as the one being listed here to criticize Metropolitan John. --Fr Lev 06:15, February 28, 2008 (PST)

Thank you for your opinion. However, calling those who do not accept innovations of J.Z. – “malicious”, would not muster community college, university or theological institute either. If he is “highly regarded” by his followers, he is also considered heterodox by those who recognize his work as non-compliant with the Orthodox Tradition. Fact that he is still member of the Orthodox clergy, does not classify his work as Orthodox automatically. Cebactokpatop 08:13, February 28, 2008 (PST)

I used the word "malice" on this talk page, not in an article that is supposed to maintain the neutrality of an encyclopedia. The tone of the descriptions of the various articles criticizing Metropolitan John were decidedly NOT academic or neutral in tone. BTW, he is highly regarded by most Orthodox who know his work. That doesn't mean they agree with him or are his "followers." I don't consider myself one of the latter, but I respect his work and consider it well within the Orthodox tradition. --Fr Lev 09:22, February 28, 2008 (PST)

They may not be academic as per your own standards. However, what constitutes academic resource and opinion is the academical position of the person making the statement, not his rhetoric and terminology. Should I remind you on the language Christ used when referring to the fallen people of Israel? Or, perhaps the language used by Holy Fathers on Ecumenical Councils? Contemporary man appears to be ashamed of tagging the disease with the proper wording, but is, interestingly enough, ready to judge those who are not ashamed. In the light of the above, I will appeal to you to remove your tagging of the Traditional Orthodox as “malicious” from this page. Thank you for your consideration.

BTW: Opinions of those people are clearly designated as “criticisms”, and it is not of a surprise if they are not neutral.

Cebactokpatop 09:53, February 28, 2008 (PST)

Much of the criticism section appears to be in the Wikipedia format rather than OrthodoxWiki's. Credit for any material from Wikipedia needs to be referenced, and links need to be updated or removed. See OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual (Importing). —magda (talk) 10:32, February 28, 2008 (PST)

Sorry about the formatting. I am more knowledgeable about the Wikipedia's formatting than about the OrthodoxWiki's. That is why material appears to be from there. Even if there is a similarity with some references placed on Wiki, they are result of my work and there is no need for any credits. I will read the link you provided, and try to make the additions compliant with the OrthodoxWiki’s standards. I also welcome other users to come and format the additions as necessary.

Cebactokpatop 10:42, February 28, 2008 (PST)