Talk:Irene of Athens

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(Canonisation of Irene of Athens)
("Iconolater" language)
 
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*Thank you for this clarification. In Greek the term "iconolater" is used for both the "icon worshipper" which is heresy, and the one who is venerating the icons, the proper thing to do. It is widely used and "latreia" here is understood as "veneration".
 
*Thank you for this clarification. In Greek the term "iconolater" is used for both the "icon worshipper" which is heresy, and the one who is venerating the icons, the proper thing to do. It is widely used and "latreia" here is understood as "veneration".
 
"Iconophile" in modern Greek is understood as "friend of the icons" while with the ancient meaning of "-phile", means someone who loves icons. But "iconodule" means "slave of the icons" which is a quite derogatory term... Dule (dulos) means a worker or slave. It's o.k. to be a slave to God, but to the icons? That's why I changed it - my native language is Greek.--[[User:Agapornis|Agapornis]] 18:30, November 21, 2008 (UTC)
 
"Iconophile" in modern Greek is understood as "friend of the icons" while with the ancient meaning of "-phile", means someone who loves icons. But "iconodule" means "slave of the icons" which is a quite derogatory term... Dule (dulos) means a worker or slave. It's o.k. to be a slave to God, but to the icons? That's why I changed it - my native language is Greek.--[[User:Agapornis|Agapornis]] 18:30, November 21, 2008 (UTC)
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: If you read the works of St. John of Damascus, he writes that ''latreia'' is due to God alone, while ''proskynesis'' is due icons (and the saints).  This language was of course a bit more fluid before him, but it's been standard in Orthodox theology ever since.  ''Iconodule'' is the standard term in English scholarship for those who defended the icons.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:39, November 21, 2008 (UTC)
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: Since "Iconodule is the standard term in English scholarship" I cannot disagree.--[[User:Agapornis|Agapornis]] 19:17, November 21, 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:17, November 21, 2008

Canonisation of Irene of Athens

This is interesting I hope that this is not true though. It would be nice to know that she IS a saint of our church. Vasiliki 21:47, November 20, 2008 (UTC)

I can't find her in any of the standard saints' lives sources. There is, of course, another Empress named Irene who is a saint in the Church, celebrated on August 13, the wife of the Emperor John Comnenus II (r. 1118-43). —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 22:08, November 20, 2008 (UTC)
Manuel Gedeon, the author of Byzantinon Heortologion (Constantinople, 1899) calls Irene "arrogant" and says that if her name is found in some synaxarion, this is due to St. Theodore the Studite. Constantine Manassis calls her "Medea" because she blinded her son. No Orthodox writer ever praised her - except St. Theodore the Studite - and there is no info that she was canonized, except in the writings of the Bollandistes. --Agapornis 23:45, November 20, 2008 (UTC)
I dont mean to be rude but who is Manuel Gedeon? Is he an authorised representative of the Orthodox church in 1899?? Maybe I may not be phrasing this question right ... what makes him an authority on the topic? Not being pompous ... just want to learn more about this ...
If Manuel Gedeon is historically important since he has contributed significant work towards Orthodoxy, maybe you could start up an Orthodox Wiki article about him so we can learn more .. I know that I would be interested.Vasiliki 00:23, November 21, 2008 (UTC)
  • That's a good idea. Unfortunately I don't have much time - I am a sysop in the Greek Orthodox Wiki but I rarely do something there as well. But I will try to write something.--Agapornis 18:33, November 21, 2008 (UTC)

"Iconolater" language

Unless there is a clear preponderance of evidence that Irene worshiped icons as idols, it is extremely inappropriate to use the term iconolater. The technical term is iconodule. (Iconophile is a bit fanciful and not really accurate, either.) I'll revert any further edits along these lines. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 15:08, November 21, 2008 (UTC)

  • Thank you for this clarification. In Greek the term "iconolater" is used for both the "icon worshipper" which is heresy, and the one who is venerating the icons, the proper thing to do. It is widely used and "latreia" here is understood as "veneration".

"Iconophile" in modern Greek is understood as "friend of the icons" while with the ancient meaning of "-phile", means someone who loves icons. But "iconodule" means "slave of the icons" which is a quite derogatory term... Dule (dulos) means a worker or slave. It's o.k. to be a slave to God, but to the icons? That's why I changed it - my native language is Greek.--Agapornis 18:30, November 21, 2008 (UTC)

If you read the works of St. John of Damascus, he writes that latreia is due to God alone, while proskynesis is due icons (and the saints). This language was of course a bit more fluid before him, but it's been standard in Orthodox theology ever since. Iconodule is the standard term in English scholarship for those who defended the icons. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 18:39, November 21, 2008 (UTC)
Since "Iconodule is the standard term in English scholarship" I cannot disagree.--Agapornis 19:17, November 21, 2008 (UTC)
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