Talk:Gallican Rite

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I would point out that the quote from the 'Catholic Encyclopedia' dates from the early 20th century. The fallacy of 'all serious liturgiologists' is undefendable, and is quite dated: it was a few Roman liturgiologists at a period when the German Rationalists were having a most degrading influence on Catholic thought (see 'Northern Catholics' or 'Modernists'). The Ephesine theory returned with some currency a few decades into the 20th c. as comparison with texts has shown that the early Western rites depend heavily on Near Eastern liturgy. "Ephesine" we only know by the local councils describing its replacement by the Byzantine in Ephesus - in all likelihood it was simply part of what scholars consider the 'Antiochian' family. That the Gallican seems to be a Syriac/Antiochian liturgy in Latin would support the Ephesine theory if Ephesine is simply understood as a local variant of the wider 'Helleno-Syrian' liturgy. (which was claimed by the Church in Britain and Gaul - see 'Cursus Gallorum'.) - Aristibule

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Needs reworking

This article needs reworking. For example, "Gallican" does indeed refer to the rite of ancient Gaul, although it is also used in a broader sense to non-Roman Western rites. It also repeated the inaccurate description of the restored Gallican rite of the Orthodox Church of France as mostly Byzantine in content.

Some corrections

First, I changed "Mozarabic" to the more correct "Spanish." Mozarabic would refer to the time when Spain was under Muslim domination, whereas the Spainsh liturgy refers to the autonomous liturgy of Spain from the early sixeth through the late eleventh centuries. Second, I added the outline for the Gallican (proper). I don't know what the other outline was intended to describe, but the Gallican proper did not use the Roman anaphora. Third, I removed "Neo-" as a modifier for "Gallican" when referring to the liturgy of the French Church. Not only is their modifer not used by the French Church, but "Neo-Gallican" is a term describing a 17th century movement in the French Catholic Church. --Fr Lev 14:02, March 12, 2006 (CST)

Neo-Gallican is a term both for the local uses of the Roman rite in the 17th c., and for reconstructions based upon the old Gallican rites: which the L'ECOF rite is. Also important: no such thing as a 'Roman anaphora'. It would be the Roman Canon, and yes - the Gallican rite had the Roman canon inserted quite early (as did the Mozarabic, also called Gothic, or Old Spanish - never Spanish'.) "Spanish rite" would be a neologism, and calling the modern Gallican rite 'Gallican' would be an imprecision, as it is not exactly what was in use in the first millenium. Ari 00:06, March 14, 2006 (CST)

(1) Neo-Gallican is not a term used for the contemporary French liturgy. Nor was it used of the several attempts to restore the Gallican that preceded the work of Kovalevsky. (2) The liturgy of Gaul did not have a fixed canon. (3) The poper term is Spanish, as the other usual terms (Mozarabic and Visigothic) are imprecise as they refer to later historical periods). (4) Liturgists also use the term 'anaphora' to refer to Western eucharistic prayers. --Fr Lev 09:02, March 14, 2006 (CST)

The Spanish Liturgy

First, "Spanish" is hardly a neologism. Its usage has been around for awhile. See, e.g., Louis Bouyer's The Early Liturgy(1959), where he typocailly refers to the "Spanish liturgy" and the "old Spanish liturgy" (notice the lower-case of "old"). Mozarabic and Visigothic are less precise. I have also seen "Hispanic" as a modifier for this rite, but not "Toledan." --Fr Lev 11:44, March 14, 2006 (CST)

No fixed Canon in the Gallican (proper) or the Spanish

As mentioned previously, the ancient rite of the Gauls did not have a fixed eucharistic prayer. A useful description may be found in Japer and Cuming's Prayers of the Eucharist: Early and Reformed, 3rd ed., 1997.The editors write: "The Gallican eucharistic prayer is organized on a basis of four fixed points: Sursum corda, Sanctus, Institution Narrative, and Doxology, between which are inserted three passages varying from Sunday to Sunday. In the Gallican rite these passages are known as contestatio or immolatio (the equivalent of the preface), post-Sanctus, and post-secreta or post-mysterium (the Institution Narrative being known as secreta)" (p.147). We also find a similarly tradition in the Spanish, as witness to by St Isidore of Seville. See, e.g., Josef Jungmann's The Mass (1976), pp. 60-61. IN the SPanish, the variable parts are klnown as the illatio, post-Sanctus, and post-Pridie (Jaseper and Cuming, p.151).

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