Talk:Filioque

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I think the distinction is rather straightforward. A heresy is a teaching that the Orthodox Church has formally condemned as theological error. Presumably there are many, many heterodox claims that have been made that the Church has never formally condemned. Part of what I was saying before is that the notion of "filioque" is patient of an Orthodox interpretation, as when St Maximos Confessor speaks of the Spirit proceeding "through" the Son. One need not take it in the heterodox sense of taking the Son to be a second, eteranl cause of the Spirit. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 20:22, July 28, 2006 (CDT)
 
I think the distinction is rather straightforward. A heresy is a teaching that the Orthodox Church has formally condemned as theological error. Presumably there are many, many heterodox claims that have been made that the Church has never formally condemned. Part of what I was saying before is that the notion of "filioque" is patient of an Orthodox interpretation, as when St Maximos Confessor speaks of the Spirit proceeding "through" the Son. One need not take it in the heterodox sense of taking the Son to be a second, eteranl cause of the Spirit. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 20:22, July 28, 2006 (CDT)
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:"''Conciliar condemnations are not issued simply because a heterodox teaching arises.  There needs to be a sort of '''"critical mass" of controversy''' in order for a synod to meet and issue an anathema''" ... So, in other words, all the (over) 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world (all of which are professing the ''heterodox'' Filioque) do ''not'' contitute a <<"critical mass" of controversy>>.
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:"''the notion of "filioque" is patient of an Orthodox interpretation, as when St Maximos Confessor speaks of the Spirit proceeding "through" the Son. One need not take it in the heterodox sense of taking the Son to be a second, eternal cause of the Spirit''" -- no, one doesn't need to, ... but, unfortunately, <<one>> does ... <<one>> being the Catholic Church, consisting out of over a '''b'''ilion believers.
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:(Isn't it a little bit curious that this has been told to them by St. Mark of Ephesus some over 500 years ago, ... yet still they insisted, and ''insisted'', and '''insisted''' that this DOES mean the ETERNAL procession ... and they very much '''still''' do, now, after half a millenium, ... and don't, in their '''wildest''' dreams, think of making our <<through>> to corrupt their <<and>> -- but, instead, they want it to work the other way around, in spite of a millenium of dialogue??) [[User:Luci83ro|Luci83ro]] 09:36, July 29, 2006 (CDT)

Revision as of 07:36, July 29, 2006

I originally imported this from Wikipedia, but it seems to me that this article needs a major reworking, if not replacement. Its rhetoric is pretty convoluted and unclear. --Rdr. Andrew 19:50, 1 Feb 2005 (CST)

Update: It has, indeed, been significantly reworked! —[[User:ASDamick|—Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!)]] 12:39, 4 Jul 2005 (EDT)


Contents

No Basilique

The article said:

Charlemagne called for a council at Aix-la-Chapelle in 809 at which Pope Leo III forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed be engraved on silver tablets displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his conclusion would not be overturned in the future.

But in at that time there was no "St. Peter's Basilica".


Misspelling?

Do you think it's really necessary to include a misspelled version? It seems that could set a somewhat awkward precedent. I don't see that sort of thing in any encyclopedia with which I'm familiar. —[[User:ASDamick|—Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!)]] 12:39, 4 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Rdr. Andrew, Please feel free to change anything I do. Let me say...I don't know you in the flesh, but have come to appreciate you and your leadership. Maybe the way to approach this is to insert it somewhere in the text or redirect a filoque page to filioque. I just know that this is a very common misspelling (I've done it!). Whatever the community sees fit to do. Maybe we should start something in the style manual about how to address misspellings. --[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe ( talk » inspect » chat )]] 13:05, 4 Jul 2005 (EDT)
I don't think we should put in redirects for misspellings - I don't think it makes the site that much more usable, and such redirects could too easily multiply. Besides, why not just let people learn to spell the words in question correctly? Fr. John
Yes, I thought that the redirect issue could get out of hand. This is why I thought to include the misspelling on the page. --[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe ( talk » inspect » chat )]] 14:11, 4 Jul 2005 (EDT)
Perhaps the Misspellings section could be removed, and the sentence "Filioque may be misspelled as filoque." added to the very end of the first paragraph? Especially in an article of this magnitude, giving a such a brief section to misspellings seems out of balance. —magda 19:31, 5 Jul 2005 (EDT)
Ah yes, here is where the discussion was. Filoque is a common misspelling. I guess I thought we could be indexed by search engines and it would point them in the right direction. I still don't know how important this is, but I care. Joe 16:19 26 Nov 2005
Hmm... the search engine thing is an interesting consideration. Maybe we could put in misspellings in comments, so they don't show for people, but they could for search engines. E.g. at the bottom of the page, near the Categories, we could put <!-- Common misspellings: filoqe filllioque--> and so on? What do other folks think about that idea?

This comment provides more to think about as well. I like the idea of commenting in misspellings rather than giving them a more prominent place. Any other ideas? I, for one, need to look up "Irene" to find Irene Chrysovalantou, as I can never remember how the monastery's name is spelled. —magda (talk) 15:39, November 26, 2005 (CST)


Conciliar condemnation

"There has never been a specific conciliar statement in the Orthodox Church which defined the filioque as heresy" ... except that of The Eighth Ecumenical Council, offcourse ... Luci83ro 09:47, July 28, 2006 (CDT)

That synod did not define the filioque as heresy but rather forbid alteration to the Creed. In effect, this precludes the filioque, but it does not define it specifically as heresy, which would instead have involved a standard formula such as "To any who teach that the Spirit proceeds from the Son as well as from the Father, anathema." —Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 10:24, July 28, 2006 (CDT)

Which filioque?

There are at least two separate issues concerning the filioque. The first is its unlawful addition the the Symbol. On this I don't believe there is any good argument to be made for its inclusion. We might term this issue the "canonical" one.

The second issue is the "dogmatic" one. Is the teaaching of the filioque orthodox or heterodox? That depends upon which understanding of the fiolioque one has in mind. A distinction must be made between the heterodox filioque (the teaching that the Spirit is dependent upon the Son as well as the Father for his origin) and the orthodox filioque (the perfectly Orthodox idea that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through (dia) the Son. The latter was taught by St Maximos Confessor and is Orthodox. The former is definitely heterodox. I would shy away from terming it "heretical" in that no council has defined it as such. --Fr Lev 10:44, July 28, 2006 (CDT)

Please excuse me for asking You this rather silly question, but ... I'm a little bit confused here: What, then, is "heterodox, (yet not heretical)"? (Do You mean by this an opinion? -- if so, then St. Maximos the Confessor is heterodox, because, in the Church, to say that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father through the Son is only a theologumenon ... or not). Luci83ro 12:10, July 28, 2006 (CDT)
I think the distinction that Fr. Lev is making is that something which is heterodox is definitely against the Orthodox faith, whereas something which is heretical has been subject to an explicit synodal condemnation of anathema.
A theologoumenon is a theological opinion which is not contrary to the Orthodox faith but has not been dogmatized by the Church. —Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 13:22, July 28, 2006 (CDT)
Okay. That was very enlightening, I have to admit. And thank You very much for Your prompt response, Father. But I still can't help myself at asking yet another Silly question #2a: how is something "against, or contrary to, the Orthodox faith", yet "not condemned" by the very same Orthodoxy that it contradicts? And yet another Silly question #2b: how does Orthodoxy not contradict something that contradicts Orthodoxy? Luci83ro 13:50, July 28, 2006 (CDT)
Conciliar condemnations are not issued simply because a heterodox teaching arises. There needs to be a sort of "critical mass" of controversy in order for a synod to meet and issue an anathema. If, for instance, a local parishioner had a few bizarre ideas about the Church, they may never affect anyone but for a few of his fellow parishioners. If, however, a bishop began teaching something heterodox and instructed all his priests to do the same, gaining support from outside his diocese, as well, that would be a clear case for a synodal condemnation (assuming, of course, that the heterodoxy isn't something already covered by previous anathema).
In short, anathemas really are for pastoral necessity in the Church body, not to keep every person doctrinally pure in every expressed opinion. —Dcn. Andrew talk random contribs 20:54, July 28, 2006 (CDT)

I think the distinction is rather straightforward. A heresy is a teaching that the Orthodox Church has formally condemned as theological error. Presumably there are many, many heterodox claims that have been made that the Church has never formally condemned. Part of what I was saying before is that the notion of "filioque" is patient of an Orthodox interpretation, as when St Maximos Confessor speaks of the Spirit proceeding "through" the Son. One need not take it in the heterodox sense of taking the Son to be a second, eteranl cause of the Spirit. --Fr Lev 20:22, July 28, 2006 (CDT)

"Conciliar condemnations are not issued simply because a heterodox teaching arises. There needs to be a sort of "critical mass" of controversy in order for a synod to meet and issue an anathema" ... So, in other words, all the (over) 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world (all of which are professing the heterodox Filioque) do not contitute a <<"critical mass" of controversy>>.
"the notion of "filioque" is patient of an Orthodox interpretation, as when St Maximos Confessor speaks of the Spirit proceeding "through" the Son. One need not take it in the heterodox sense of taking the Son to be a second, eternal cause of the Spirit" -- no, one doesn't need to, ... but, unfortunately, <<one>> does ... <<one>> being the Catholic Church, consisting out of over a bilion believers.
(Isn't it a little bit curious that this has been told to them by St. Mark of Ephesus some over 500 years ago, ... yet still they insisted, and insisted, and insisted that this DOES mean the ETERNAL procession ... and they very much still do, now, after half a millenium, ... and don't, in their wildest dreams, think of making our <<through>> to corrupt their <<and>> -- but, instead, they want it to work the other way around, in spite of a millenium of dialogue??) Luci83ro 09:36, July 29, 2006 (CDT)
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