Talk:Ben Lomond Crisis

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This page was here on Dec 31st, 2007, and removed by someone on Jan 1, 2008. {{unsigned|JulianDelphiki}}
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[[Talk:Ben_Lomond_Crisis/Archives 1|Archives 1]] - Creation to Protection of article.
  
:This is interesting.  There's nothing here for this page on the [http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ben_Lomond_Crisis internet archive] (dated November 18, 2005).  There doesn't seem to be a Google cache for the page.  There are three articles linking to the page, but Google's cache of those articles (on [http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:ixZY2Qdg7FYJ:orthodoxwiki.org/Timeline_of_Orthodoxy_in_America December 23], [http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:SykpLUe6-lcJ:orthodoxwiki.org/Philip_(Saliba)_of_New_York 24], and [http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:XPou7Cbsh7wJ:orthodoxwiki.org/Greek_Orthodox_Patriarchate_of_Jerusalem_in_North_and_South_America 30] indicate that Google didn't see the page on those datesIt doesn't appear that anyone actually removed the page, or there would have been something in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Ben_Lomond_Crisis logs], so I'm baffled as to what happened. [[User:Magda|<b>magda</b>]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 09:03, January 2, 2008 (PST)
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==Additions to article==
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Have added a citation to the Archbishop's archpastoral directive (which was the suspension of the clergy), and ideally, would like to add citations to articles posted on Ben Lomond TragedyAlthough the sources are proper for encyclopaedic articles, based on new articles that have been posted there, I'd want a consensus to add such citations. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 02:03, January 28, 2008 (PST)
  
:: There is no indication in any of the wiki's logs that this page existed before it was created by [[User:JulianDelphiki|JulianDelphiki]] on Jan. 1st&mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</small> 14:39, January 18, 2008 (PST)
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Pending any objections, I'll put a link up to Dcn R. Thomas Zell's article on this, written in the first AGAIN magazine post-court verdictIt's viewable [http://z6.invisionfree.com/On_Our_Way_Home/index.php?showtopic=157&st=78 here] (about eight screens down), and I'm not sure where else it might be available.  At some point, any additional points from this article should be added in to the article itself.
  
==Non Wiki question ==
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Anyone think that this should be unprotected, or is it just going to be a permanently touchy subject until all the key players are out of the Church Militant? &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 20:34, March 5, 2008 (PST)
Hi, I read this article and was really interested in asking - If you belong to the Antiochian Church and do stuff from say the Russian Church or Greek Church (ie Byzantine style singing as opposed to something else) - is this valid grounds for excommunication? I thought that if we all belong to a 'Orthodox Church' then we are freely able to 'interchange' between them (ie celebrate at a Russian Church if I was Greek or vice versa) because we all originate from the initial Apostolic churches??? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 18:55, January 17, 2008 (PST)
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:Under normal circumstances, there is no problem - although we are able to interchange, so to speak, because of our shared faith, not our origin.  Firstly, I have a feeling that this article is somewhat less than balanced; secondly, disobedience to one's bishop can, under some circumstances, be grounds for excommunication. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 00:08, January 18, 2008 (PST)
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==Typo? ==
  
==Suitability of article==
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Feel free to remove this section once dealt with (including if you choose not to deal with it).
Given the nature of this article's subject matter (i.e., highly controversial and with most of the main players all still alive), there needs to be some third-party citations from reputable sources (e.g., historians, journalists, etc.), or else this should be deleted.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</small> 14:39, January 18, 2008 (PST)
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:I am of like mind with the rest of my colleagues on this article. While I am not an administrator, I certainly deem it unfair and unbalanced (to be Bill O'Reilly about the whole thing). I had the most distinguished pleasure of having Fr. David Barr as my father confessor for over two years while I was a student at the University of Texas. Though he isn't mentioned by name in the article, the V. Rev. Fr. David was sent in to help the Ben Lomond Crisis as a co-celebrant to this church. I have been told stories that are shockingly different than what this article claims (for example, the said priest telling his parishioners "not to think" about this issue, and urging them to act and align with him). And being a member of the Antiochian Archdiocese, I certainly know that our hierarchy is not nefarious as this individual makes it out to be. Priests don't just get defrocked for asinine and petty reasons. It is all a pack of lies, as my wife Gabriela stated so poignantly.
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1. While not specifically a typo, the third sentence of the first bullet could be cleaned up by not using the word "period" an extra time.
  
:Also, where is the author getting his numbers on attendances? You don't have that many people at a Great Vespers in a bishop's cathedral.[[User:Mike|Mike]] 19:53, January 18, 2008 (PST)
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2.  Minor beef, but should we adjust British spellings (e.g., "practise") in an article about an innately American episode? I honestly don't know if there's a wiki standard for use of English (US vs. UK).  If there is none, then please, allow me to sit down and shut up.
  
Sorry if my question has caused a bit of an issue for Ben Lemond ... I have no idea who he is or what this article is actually about ...hence my curiosity. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:50, January 20, 2008 (PST)
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Let me also thank you for this article. I'm reaching a point now where I need a good understanding of what happened just so I don't stick my foot in my mouth while discussing it with others. I really hate controversy. It makes me break out in hives.
  
::I've tried to dissect this article so that it can be rewritten.  As it was, it was not encyclopedic, even if the subject matter is appropriate (probably debatable) and could be freely written about without citations (''not'' the case).
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[[User:Jeffholton|Theophilus]] 23:14, May 3, 2009 (UTC)
::I don't have access to journal articles anymore (soon, but not yet), but I remember an article titled 'Enfants Terrible' or something similar, which talked about three instances of problems with converts to Orthodoxy, and the first example was Ben Lomond, with some detail.  This is the only reference I'm aware of, but it's a pretty good one. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 17:29, January 20, 2008 (PST)
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:::Vasiliki: The article is about a parish church in the city of Ben Lomond, California. In this church, the senior priest apparently started criticizing Metr. Phillip and the other Antiochian hierarchy (among over things), refused to obey them, and broke off with a good chunk of the parish to start his own church. Don't worry about causing any controversy; this article had already been posted and deleted (for good reason, if you ask me) once before you posted on the second version, and it was obviously either written by one of the schismatic Ben Lomondites or someone highly sympathetic toward their cause.  [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 18:30, January 20, 2008 (PST)
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==Deletion of article==
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The 1st version of the article was the most objective and balanced. It lacked certain
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key information, but should have been acceptable to all. '''It was erased (rendering
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that page blank)''' by someone who would rather there be no real information available.
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'''Here's the timeline.'''
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'''Late December''' - the first Ben Lomond Crisis article existed on 12/31/2007 and
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was completely erased from the Orthodox Wiki on 1/1/2008, beginning the new year with a blackout of history.
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Early January - notation of this fact and date was made on that wiki page.
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'''Mid January''' - a new article describing the crisis was put up.
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'''Late January''' (1/21) - that article was reformatted and rewritten a bit to give
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it some objectivity and balance.
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'''Later January''' (e.g. 1/22-23) - that article was completely deleted off the wiki,
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rendering even the link broken. Here is a pdf of that article which shows when it was present:  
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'''[http://benlomond.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/ben_lomond_crisis.pdf Deleted 3rd Version (PDF)]'''
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It is a terrible shame when the truth of something is so scandalous, that it has to be
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covered up by an information blackout.
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It should be noted that, while this doesn’t indicate the source necessarily, the link to the
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article from the Antiochian website is not the link to read the article, but rather the direct
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link to edit it.
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'''Here's the most recent article which was simply deleted wholesale.'''
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''(transferred from main article by [[User:Pistevo]]; written by [[User:Westernritecritic]])
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:This article should not be deleted without, at the very least, an explanation on the talk page.  This is an article that documents an important moment in American Orthodox history, and needs to be written about properly and - most importantly - objectively, and IMHO this is best done here: it is our competitive advantage, if you like. &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 14:28, January 27, 2008 (PST)
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: I deleted the article due to its twofold nature of being controversial and having absolutely no citations of reliable third-party sources (e.g., historians, etc.).  Original research and uncited material is fine for uncontroversial material, but there needs to be citations for controversial topics.  Anything else is just hearsay, innuendo, etc.  If this article can be written as a summary of reputable, third-party publications, it certainly ought to be here.  But I rather doubt that hardly any exist, especially since this event is still such recent history.
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: Deleting an unsourced article is not "an information blackout."  It's part of writing and maintaining an encyclopedia.  No remotely reputable encyclopedia gets published without some academic backbone.  OrthodoxWiki is no exception.  If folks would like to publish unsourced controversial material on another outlet, no one's stopping them.  But OrthodoxWiki is not that outlet.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]</small> 15:01, January 27, 2008 (PST)
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::One does exist, ''Enfants Terribles'' - I'm drawing on information from it as a base for this article at the moment.  Perhaps this would be an article best protected, changes made on the talk page first? &mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 15:22, January 27, 2008 (PST)
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Latest revision as of 16:14, May 3, 2009

Archives 1 - Creation to Protection of article.

Additions to article

Have added a citation to the Archbishop's archpastoral directive (which was the suspension of the clergy), and ideally, would like to add citations to articles posted on Ben Lomond Tragedy. Although the sources are proper for encyclopaedic articles, based on new articles that have been posted there, I'd want a consensus to add such citations. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 02:03, January 28, 2008 (PST)

Pending any objections, I'll put a link up to Dcn R. Thomas Zell's article on this, written in the first AGAIN magazine post-court verdict. It's viewable here (about eight screens down), and I'm not sure where else it might be available. At some point, any additional points from this article should be added in to the article itself.

Anyone think that this should be unprotected, or is it just going to be a permanently touchy subject until all the key players are out of the Church Militant? — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 20:34, March 5, 2008 (PST)

Typo?

Feel free to remove this section once dealt with (including if you choose not to deal with it).

1. While not specifically a typo, the third sentence of the first bullet could be cleaned up by not using the word "period" an extra time.

2. Minor beef, but should we adjust British spellings (e.g., "practise") in an article about an innately American episode? I honestly don't know if there's a wiki standard for use of English (US vs. UK). If there is none, then please, allow me to sit down and shut up.

Let me also thank you for this article. I'm reaching a point now where I need a good understanding of what happened just so I don't stick my foot in my mouth while discussing it with others. I really hate controversy. It makes me break out in hives.

Theophilus 23:14, May 3, 2009 (UTC)

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