Talk:Andrew the Fool-for-Christ

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Hi ... the dating of St Andrew's life is contested. According to the biography of St Andrew in the book "Saint Andrew, the Fool for Christ's Sake by Nikephoros, Priest of the Great Church", published by Dormition Skete, Colorado (ISBN No: 978-0-935889-05-5), Archbishop Gregory of Denver and Colorado (of the Genuine Orthodox Church of America) introduces the book with a reference to the dating in the 6th century ... I have also requested a publication on St Andrew's Apocraphyl prophecies from Harvard University which also date him somehwere to the 6th century. So, I guess, its just an interesting observation to add to the article. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 23:43, January 31, 2008 (PST)
 
Hi ... the dating of St Andrew's life is contested. According to the biography of St Andrew in the book "Saint Andrew, the Fool for Christ's Sake by Nikephoros, Priest of the Great Church", published by Dormition Skete, Colorado (ISBN No: 978-0-935889-05-5), Archbishop Gregory of Denver and Colorado (of the Genuine Orthodox Church of America) introduces the book with a reference to the dating in the 6th century ... I have also requested a publication on St Andrew's Apocraphyl prophecies from Harvard University which also date him somehwere to the 6th century. So, I guess, its just an interesting observation to add to the article. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 23:43, January 31, 2008 (PST)
  
== ASDAmick ... ==
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== "Revelations" ==
  
 
Hi, read my above discussion comment. The revelations of Andrew is not an "Alleged" document it is real/an actual document. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:49, June 12, 2008 (UTC)
 
Hi, read my above discussion comment. The revelations of Andrew is not an "Alleged" document it is real/an actual document. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:49, June 12, 2008 (UTC)
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:: Whether what the document contains came from the source it claims is another question ('''authorship''').  This also could use some citing, since if it really did come from St. Andrew, it calls into question his accuracy (since the world didn't end).
 
:: Whether what the document contains came from the source it claims is another question ('''authorship''').  This also could use some citing, since if it really did come from St. Andrew, it calls into question his accuracy (since the world didn't end).
  
:: What it states is true or not is still another question ('''accuracy''') and thus the source of the use of the term "alleged."  (After all, the world did not end, and it's been more than 500 years since 1453.)  (This is what calls into question the authorship—would a saint known for his prophetic ability have been wrong about something like that?)
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:: Whether what it states is true or not is still another question ('''accuracy''') and thus the source of the use of the term "alleged."  (After all, the world did not end, and it's been more than 500 years since 1453.)  (This is what calls into question the authorship—would a saint known for his prophetic ability have been wrong about something like that?)
  
:: I don't think we can state unequivocally that this is a ''bona fide'' revelation (i.e., from God), since it manifestly didn't come true.  Thus, ''alleged'' is a justified term.
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:: I don't think we can state unequivocally that this is a ''bona fide'' revelation (i.e., from God), since it manifestly didn't come true.  Thus, ''alleged'' is a justified term to refer to the supposed revelation itself.
  
:: What do you think?  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 02:05, June 12, 2008 (UTC)
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:: Now, it wasn't clear to me that you meant that section heading simply to refer to the name of the document.  In that case, I don't think ''alleged'' needs to be used, since the section is essentially just addressing the document.  But is the document called ''The Life of Andrew the Fool'' or ''The Revelation of Andrew''?  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 02:05, June 12, 2008 (UTC)
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Thank you, Vasiliki, for making the additions and clarifications that you have.  I'd still be interested to learn if the "Revelations" portion is part of the larger ''Life'' or if it's a separate document.
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It also might be useful to find some citation for the statement that a "short time" could be 100-1000 years in the parlance of the times (since it's not obviously the case to a modern reader).  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 13:09, June 12, 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 06:09, June 12, 2008

Dating of his death is contested

Hi ... the dating of St Andrew's life is contested. According to the biography of St Andrew in the book "Saint Andrew, the Fool for Christ's Sake by Nikephoros, Priest of the Great Church", published by Dormition Skete, Colorado (ISBN No: 978-0-935889-05-5), Archbishop Gregory of Denver and Colorado (of the Genuine Orthodox Church of America) introduces the book with a reference to the dating in the 6th century ... I have also requested a publication on St Andrew's Apocraphyl prophecies from Harvard University which also date him somehwere to the 6th century. So, I guess, its just an interesting observation to add to the article. -- Vasiliki 23:43, January 31, 2008 (PST)

"Revelations"

Hi, read my above discussion comment. The revelations of Andrew is not an "Alleged" document it is real/an actual document. Vasiliki 01:49, June 12, 2008 (UTC)

I would find it next to impossible to prove to you the existence of this document since it is very very hard to come by a copy that you can borrow. A friend of mine had loaned it from Harvard Library but not in its original context rather as the PHD paper of a Theologian from Harvard, who translated the text and inserted his analysis. We could only read part of this paper and it was a photocopy ...so, I have no idea how to track this document down and cite it! - BUT I know it exists! Vasiliki 01:54, June 12, 2008 (UTC)
Whether the document exists is one question and something that needs to be cited (academic verifiability). Since this is a controversial subject (because it naturally leads to the impugning of the testimony of a saint), there needs to be some sort of citation from a reliable third-party source. That shouldn't be too hard to come by for a document of this age. Surely, there is some academic somewhere who mentions it.
Whether what the document contains came from the source it claims is another question (authorship). This also could use some citing, since if it really did come from St. Andrew, it calls into question his accuracy (since the world didn't end).
Whether what it states is true or not is still another question (accuracy) and thus the source of the use of the term "alleged." (After all, the world did not end, and it's been more than 500 years since 1453.) (This is what calls into question the authorship—would a saint known for his prophetic ability have been wrong about something like that?)
I don't think we can state unequivocally that this is a bona fide revelation (i.e., from God), since it manifestly didn't come true. Thus, alleged is a justified term to refer to the supposed revelation itself.
Now, it wasn't clear to me that you meant that section heading simply to refer to the name of the document. In that case, I don't think alleged needs to be used, since the section is essentially just addressing the document. But is the document called The Life of Andrew the Fool or The Revelation of Andrew? —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 02:05, June 12, 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Vasiliki, for making the additions and clarifications that you have. I'd still be interested to learn if the "Revelations" portion is part of the larger Life or if it's a separate document.

It also might be useful to find some citation for the statement that a "short time" could be 100-1000 years in the parlance of the times (since it's not obviously the case to a modern reader). —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 13:09, June 12, 2008 (UTC)

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