Talk:Alexei II (Ridiger) of Moscow

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An English analogy might be with something like Tom or Katie.  Sometimes, a person's birth certificate might even say Tom or Katie, but their Christian name would be Thomas or Katherine.
 
An English analogy might be with something like Tom or Katie.  Sometimes, a person's birth certificate might even say Tom or Katie, but their Christian name would be Thomas or Katherine.
  
This may not seem like a big deal to us, as English speakers, but in Russia, this is very strictly followed.  Alexy and Alexei are different names and all official Church sources would refer to him as Alexy.  In deference to Russian sensabilities, I propose changing the article name to Alexy II, with a redirect to it from Alexei II, to deal with the common English misspelling.
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This may not seem like a big deal to us, as English speakers, but in Russia, this is very strictly followed.  Alexy and Alexei are different names and all official Church sources would refer to him as Alexy.  In deference to Russian sensabilities, I propose changing the article name to Alexy II, with a redirect to it from Alexei II, to deal with the common English misspelling. -- ThePilgrim

Latest revision as of 16:58, December 16, 2011

I meant to edit, but I suppose I'd better ask first.
The point is, Alexei is (an alternative English spelling of) a secular name, and the church-related English-language sources usually refer to His Holiness as Alexy or Alexii, to comply with the clerical variant of the name. (cf. here, on the site of a Patriarchal parish in the US, and here, the official Moscow Pct. website (linked to at the bottom of the page), or here, the English version of the site which yours truly works for). I mean, maybe there's a point in adopting one of these spellings for the entry to keep things more uniform?..
Guldfisken 17:07, 25 Oct 2005 (EDT)

The above comment is correct. Alexei (or Alexey, Aleksei, or Aleksey, depending on your transliteration system) Ridiger is an Estonian of German descent. When he became Patriarch, he changed his name to the more Russian form, Alexii (also transliterated Alexiy, Alexy, Alexis, and Aleksiy). It is incorrect to use his old name Alexei in conjunction with his title of Patriarch.
BALawrence 11:20, 17 Feb 2007 (EST)

So this article is better to be renamed? And an suppremental question: is there a document which leads us how properly to spell out, preferably in MOS? I'm always a bit confused which is better to spell out some saints, I met multiple ways like Nicholas, Nikolai etc on this website content... --Cat68 21:13, February 17, 2007 (PST)
In his official biography (in Russian [1]), his secular (worldly) name is "в миру - Алексей Михайлович Ридигер", so Aleksey or Alexey Mikhailovich Ridiger. The monastic name provided is: "Алексий", so Aleksy, or Alexy (used on the English version of the website). In my personal opinion I believe we should use the Moscow Patriarchate's spelling, and use Alexy. --AKCGY 21:28, February 17, 2007 (PST)
The OrthodoxWiki standard is to use whatever spelling is most common in English writing, which may not necessarily be the same as official spelling.
A quick Google check yields:
"Patriarch Alexy" - 52,000 hits
"Patriarch Alexei" - 12,500 hits
"Patriarch Alexii" - 1,080 hits
A careful perusal of the Style Manual can answer these sorts of questions pretty easily. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs 17:10, February 18, 2007 (PST)

If I may respectfully disagree with using Google as a means to determine the correct spelling of the name, I'd like to give an alternate rationale. There are, unfortunately, some words or names that are commonly mispelled to the point of having a greater number of Google hits. I saw an example of this not long ago, although the case escapes me at the the moment. While it's true that Google often can provide good insight, I disagree with it being *the* standard for making this determination.

In Russian, the case is very clear. Alexey is a colloquial name that has developed over time, but is never used in the context of the Church. A similar example would be Ivan vs. Ioann. While it's very common to meet someone named Ivan, in Church, the person would always receive communion as Ioann and if they were ordained, they would be called Father (or Bishop) Ioann. Likewise, Oksana is a colloquial version of Ksenia, etc.

An English analogy might be with something like Tom or Katie. Sometimes, a person's birth certificate might even say Tom or Katie, but their Christian name would be Thomas or Katherine.

This may not seem like a big deal to us, as English speakers, but in Russia, this is very strictly followed. Alexy and Alexei are different names and all official Church sources would refer to him as Alexy. In deference to Russian sensabilities, I propose changing the article name to Alexy II, with a redirect to it from Alexei II, to deal with the common English misspelling. -- ThePilgrim

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