OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

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* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 3|Archive 3]], Oct 2005 – Aug 2006 (moved from [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=37962 Talk:Main Page])
 
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 3|Archive 3]], Oct 2005 – Aug 2006 (moved from [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=37962 Talk:Main Page])
 
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 4|Archive 4]], Aug 2006 – Dec 2006 (2006 Trapeza archive)
 
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 4|Archive 4]], Aug 2006 – Dec 2006 (2006 Trapeza archive)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 5|Archive 5]], through November 2008
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* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 5|Archive 5]], Dec 2006 – November 2008
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* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 6|Archive 6]], Nov 2008 – March 2011
  
 
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== Closing down OrthodoxSource and SR ==
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== Holy Trinity Metafor ==
Friends, I apologize for being absent for awhile. Please let me know if you have any outstanding wiki issues you need to resolve!<br>
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As of today, I am shutting down OrthodoxSource. Apologies to IXThis888, who has put in a good deal of work. However, there was not enough of a community of contibutors and moderators there, and I think it would be better for us all at this point to keep the focus on this wiki. Also, I will likely be shutting down SR soon. There has been no activity there for a long time, and I'm afraid that the required documents (about copyrights and policies) were never translated. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 12:45, November 25, 2008 (UTC)
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== questions ==
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Hello,  
hi, i have photos of the raifa monastary i would like to upload as well as a convent neasr yoshkar ola russia which i do not beleive yet has an article how would i create a new article for this? {{unsigned|Kharaku}}
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:Hello, on the left hand side of your screen ... scroll down until you see the words
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"upload file" .. then follow the steps ...its not too hard and always someone will help you categorise your work ... Good luck! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:16, November 29, 2008 (UTC)
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== Adding a Photo.... ==
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Reading about the material universe, noticed that there are 3 infinities (or mysteries) that define our world:
  
I have been wanting to post my photo, but do not know HTML.
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1. --- The immensity of space-time, the boundless universe than nobody can say for sure how big it is, where it ends. Sure there are some theories that are accepted by most scientists, but also big anomalies if you apply the theory, that need to be corrected with inventions such as "dark matter" or "string theory" to fill in for obvious gaps.
Could someone please give me a tip on how to do this?
+
  
Thanks! {{unsigned|Jacifus}}
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2. --- The "small infinity" or mystery of the subatomic universe. We split the atoms in so many sub-particles, and the latest belief is that in fact all the matter is a concentration of energy. But where does matter end and pure energy begins?
  
: Give a thorough read to the materials linked in the welcome message on your talk page.  There's plenty there that should help.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 23:56, December 3, 2008 (UTC)
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I may be overcomplicating here, but it's just so poetic to notice how the science laws of the big universe and the small universe are in disagreement with each-other when it comes to apply the macrocosmos laws to microcosmos or the other way around, as if God intended things to be mysterious and impenetrable for the human mind.  
  
==Seminarian input==
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3. --- The infinite complexity of life and intelligence. The connections in our brain are said to be more than all the stars in the universe. But how can this complexity come to be in only 4 billon years since our Earth is said to exist. This level of organisation of matter, first level: life, second level: intelligent life are both just unconceivable by science.
Over at Citizendium, there is a programme whereby faculty at various universities enjoin their students to post their work. I was wondering if it would make sense here to start publishing seminarians' papers. They come with faculty oversight and would be of sufficient quality to support reliability here. [[User:Thomas Simmons|Thomas Simmons]] 09:28, December 19, 2008 (PST)
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:There is also a Wiki Site called "Patristic Wiki" that you should look at. Father John set it up recently (mid-November I think) and they are asking for people to contribute in regards to patristic related stuff .... 22:47, December 18, 2008 (UTC)
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I want to ask you: could these 3 "infinities" be a reflection of the Holy Trinity in the material world? Or what is the theological view about those mysteries?
  
:: 1.  This is not really a place for papers, but for encyclopedia articles.  If seminarians wish to write Orthodox encyclopedia articles here, they are welcome to do so.
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Thank you
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Mihai
  
:: 2.  PatristicsWiki is not connected with OrthodoxWiki and, as far as I know, not set up by (our) Fr. John.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 01:54, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
 
  
:::Hi, I know that PatristicWiki is not linked with OrthodoxWiki but I mentioned it since I presume that everyone's core intention is to spread Orthodoxy in the way they know how ... who you are affiliated with wrt posting information publically is irrelevant as long as the end users are connected to God and the Truth. I had the impression (our) Father John was involved with it ... since, he monitors the emails for the Ancient Faith podcast that Dcn Matthew has been delivering - and he is from Monachos.net So doh! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:03, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
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== New category ==
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I was thinking of adding a category to be called '''"Propitiatory Offerings"''' where all of the things that are offered to God can be grouped together, inluding: [[Artoklasia]], [[Kollyva]], [[Proskomedia]], [[Molieben]], [[Incense]], [[Myrrh]], [[Votive Offerings]], and things of this nature. Propitiatory Offerings in the Old Testament consisted mainly of sacrifices; in the Orthodox Church we have this new array of elements. Any ideas or comments? Is it accurate to describe it this way? Thanks and cheers. [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 20:34, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
  
== ROK's Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights ==
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: Propitiation is a problematic concept for Orthodoxy and one I wouldn't be willing to endorse (e.g., I would never say, "We offer up incense as a propitiation to God"). That said, though, I've never heard of these things really being grouped together in traditional Orthodox writings. &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 14:05, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
I learnt recently the Russian Church adopted a [http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?mid=463 Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights]. Metropolitan Kyrill held a [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=65 speech] at a conference in Vienna in 2006 where he said  this teaching is meaningful to all christans and at the UN Human Rights Council he [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=121 said] in 2008 adoption of human rights is unsuccessful because it fades out moral. I believe this is important. Would there be interest to have an article on this topic?{{unsigned|Haiduk}}
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:Perhaps you should make it a "sub-topic" under the [[Church of Russia]] since it is specific to their jurisdiction? I will give it a shot first if you want and then you can come in and edit??? Remember to sign your posts with three tilde (~) signs. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:45, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
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:: Thanks for the clarification Father, cheers, [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 14:09, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
  
:: I'm glad with just doing a revision. I agree adding it to [[Church of Russia]] would be adequate. It's up to you to follow Fr. Andrew advice or convince him, if that is possible  [[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]]
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== Calendar Days ==
::Honestly now, with no mucking around and with respect to Father Andrew its not MY job to convince and neither do I want to convince him since I trust what he is telling me :) However, if you wish to ..since it is your own idea ...go ahead. I merely was trying to be helpful but if its not appropriate for an article I can only just go with the guy who holds the petraxili .... :) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
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Greetings. I had a look over at Wikipedia at their Orthodox "Calendar day" pages, and I liked how the pages were set up; instead of a block paragraph, with all the daily Saints blocked together as we have them here, they list them in a neatly ordered list (with bullets). This list could even be arranged chronologically for that particular day (i.e. with the oldest-in-time Saints listed first, the most recent saint for that day listed last).
:: Well, my salvation is not dependent on having such an article at OrthodoxWiki. I just wanted to ensure information about this declaration finds it's way into this community. I guess (since it is not easy to write a reasonable article on this subject) it might be better to forward it to english language blogs or forums such as monachos.net. --[[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]] 16:34, December 20, 2008 (UTC)
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: That's interesting, but it's really more fit for a newspaper than an encyclopedia.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 02:27, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
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Here is an example from Wikipedia for [[w:June 4 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics)|JUNE 4th]]. I would like to go into all of our Calendar Day pages for the entire year (all 365 days), and make the change form paragraph to list form, for ease of reading and better visual (and chronological) access. Would this be okay / sound good / any objections? (I don't mind doing the work).  Cheers, [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 11:52, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
  
==Orthodoxy in Italy==
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== Twitter feed showing drug spam ==
I think it is completely inapropriate to use the title [[Orthodox Church in Italy]] for a non official orthodox church, that exists only 17 years, when in Italy orthodoxy has a history for many centuries. As far as I can see there is an article referred to [[Gennadios (Zervos) of Italy and Malta]] (the primate of the '''diocese of Italy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate'''), but there isn't an article for his archdiocese "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy". Also in the english and italian wikipedia the problem is the same. It seems as if the users who created the "Orthodox Church in Italy" articles were really quickly to catch the title! But it should remain like this? I think no. And it is, in my point of view completely unacceptable if that happens also in the "Orthodoxwiki".--[[User:Sp!ros|Sp!ros]] 21:27, December 29, 2008 (UTC)
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: Generally, we use whatever titles such groups give themselves, noting within the article that they are not in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy, etc.
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I saw the following in my twitter feed:
  
: In any event, I have removed the redirect and changed all the links to [[Chiesa Ortodossa in Italia]].
 
  
: You would be most welcome to provide the articles that you suggest are needed.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 20:58, December 31, 2008 (UTC)
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22 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
  
== Archbishop Nikitas (Lulias) Cekal Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro ==
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22 minutes ago
  
Pada Februari 2007 lalu, Metropolitan Orthodox Hongkong dan Asia Tenggara, '''His Eminence Nikitas Lulias''' mengeluarkan keputusan pencekalan (pembebas-tugas-an) terhadap '''Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro''', yang artinya Archimandrit Daniel Bambang tidak diperkenankan lagi (''suspended'') untuk berbicara, melakukan tugas penggembalaan jemaat atas nama gereja. Meskipun archimandrit Daniel mengklaim dirinya menjadi bagian dari satu gereja tertentu, tapi yang bersangkutan tidak lagi menerima putusan/ ketetapan (''Canonical Release'')dari Gereja sebagaimana disyaratkan. Hal ini atas sepengetahuan '''Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.''' {{unsigned|Maruli}}
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22 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
  
: I'm honestly not sure what language this is, but unless you post here in English, you're not likely to get too many responses. &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:46, January 4, 2009 (UTC)
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FYI.
  
::It's Indonesian. Here's an English rendering (thanks to the ever-improving Google Translate) -- "In February 2007, the Orthodox Metropolitan Hong Kong and Southeast Asia, His Eminence Nikitas Lulias-ban issue a decision (liberator-task-an) of Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro, which means Archimandrit Daniel Bambang not be more (suspended) to speak, doing penggembalaan of the church in the name of the church. Although Daniel archimandrit claimed himself to be part of a particular church, but they no longer receive the decision / provisions (Canonical Release) from the Church, as required. This top sepengetahuan Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople." — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 02:05, January 5, 2009 (UTC)
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[[User:JonathansCornerCom|JonathansCornerCom]] 12:11, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
  
== Churches in Melbourne ==
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: It's been fixed.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:20, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
  
I plan on uploading around one hundred photographs of churches in Melbourne to [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Orthodox_churches_in_Australia Wikimedia commons] over the next few days. You are free to reuse them; all my work is released into the public domain. Hope to have done all of the Orthodox churches within a few months. [[User:Ottre|Ottre]] 11:55, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
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Thanks! Great!
  
== log in ==
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[[User:JonathansCornerCom|JonathansCornerCom]] 22:41, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
  
why does no one ever log on and really have discussion on other pages? {{unsigned|Rob}}
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== List of Enlighterners/Illuminators/Equals-to-the-Apostles ==
  
: I'm not really sure I understand what you mean.  Could you explain a little more?  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 22:14, March 9, 2009 (UTC)
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I realize that the purpose of the wiki structure is to allow anyone to edit. I hope OW will forgive my impertinence in merely suggesting (as opposed to creating myself) that it would be useful to have a list (or lists) corresponding to the different saint titles at [[ illuminator ]].
  
== The Cemetery Chapel at Saint Anna's Skete? ==
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I've thought of this because an LDS poster on a message board I frequent challenged non-LDS to name five of our own missionaries "whose exploits rival that of the LDS missionary work."
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: I think the OW category 'Missionaries' covers this with an extensive list. An article over a list of missionaries would be rather long! [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 01:22, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
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: Thanks for the response WSK! I'm not seeing the category for 'Missionaries'...what am I missing? [[User:Jkotinek|Jkotinek]] 19:57, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
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: NM. Found it. = ) [[User:Jkotinek|Jkotinek]] 20:00, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
  
I'm trying to remember the name of the cemetery chapel at Saint Anna's Skete on the Holy Mountain, the chapel where pilgrims generally worship on weekdays.  Does anyone recall which saint the chapel venerates?
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== Confesion ==
  
Father Andrew, is there a more likely page on this site where I might solicit a response?
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Where may I find info abour Confession? I did a search for that subject & coldn't fnd it.  After a long absence from Church, I returned in February 2012.  I've had four o five cnfessions snce then.  Every tme I try to confess, I'm often fogettng sins.  Dad told me it's okay to say "I can't recall others, but I read that it's not ok
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May 12, 2012
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Brooklyn, NY
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Thank you Irene Nikolsky
  
Thanks,
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:: I think it's good to talk with a priest, but also you might find some helpful resources at http://stspress.com/ or http://svspress.com - — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 16:34, May 12, 2012 (HST)
Isaak
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: Your best bet is at [[Talk:St. Anne's Skete (Athos)]].  It may simply be that no one who knows has yet noticed and commented.  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 13:42, March 20, 2009 (UTC)
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== Basic Information ==
  
== John the Forerunner? ==
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Is there a website that helps people and/or teenagers with basic Q&As about our religion? I have teen son, who was baptized Orthodox. Because my church is in Russian he doesn't want to go. I thought if I could find basic info for him, then he'd believe me that there are English speaking Eastern Orthodox members.
Hello, I have a question regarding the St. John the Forerunner page. It says something along the lines of, John the Baptist, also known as John the Forerunner... I was wondering if the two names should be switched, since John the Baptist is a more western term? --<font color="teal">[[User:Iliada|Iliada]]</font><font color="teal" size="100px"></font> 00:24, March 20, 2009 (UTC)
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Thank you,
 +
Irene Nikolsky
 +
Broolyn, NY
  
: Please direct questions about specific articles to the talk pages of those articles, e.g., [[Talk:John the Forerunner]]. &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 13:42, March 20, 2009 (UTC)
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:: Greetings Irene. Of course, there are A LOT of English-speaking (and non-Russian) Orthodox people -- For Q+A, you might try http://orthodoxanswers.org/ -- — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])
  
==Uploading sound recordings==
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== Orthodox wiki stats ==
I've tried uploading a sound recording (bell ringing) file to Orthodoxwiki Commons and have not been successful. I have tried as a Media file and a Image file, since some vocal music recording on Commons appear to be so uploaded. The recording is an mp3 file, through iTunes on a Mac. All attempts fail and bring up the warning banner of a corrupt, etc., file. I notice that there are no sound files in Commons other than those done originally by Father John last year. Has anyone tried uploading any sound files? Is there a special technique involved, what file ID is used:Media or Image, or other! Or is the upload capability not working for sound files?[[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 13:45, March 23, 2009 (UTC)
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== Wiki logo ==
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Is there a way to look at statistics for various pages by day, week, month, and year? --[[User:Kalvesmaki|Kalvesmaki]] 16:03, May 17, 2012 (HST)
  
Where is the actual wiki logo? I can't find it because the one in the corner is a link to the main page. Thanks! [[User:Theodoros|Theodoros]] 03:20, March 29, 2009 (UTC)
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==Diocese evolution in North America==
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One aspect that I have had in preparing my contributions to Orthodoxwiki concerns an accurate presentation of the ecclesiastical structure of the Orthodox in North America. While sources concerning the earliest century, notably in the OCA 1975 publication, give a fairly clear picture of the founding of dioceses and vicariates, the last century is blurred.
  
:Theodoros, do you want it for a link button or something?  — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 04:38, March 30, 2009 (UTC)
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Various sources seem to present a good picture of the history of the structure of the Greek and Antiochian diocese, but the picture within the Russian based organizations gets blurred as the twentieth century progressed. The history of the Russian mission to North America seems clear to the first decade of the twentieth century when the Vicariates of Alaska and Brooklyn were formed. As hierarchs were installed with sees named Canada, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Winnipeg, Montreal, San Francisco, Detroit, Boston, and others through the time of the Metropolia, apparently as Vicariates of the North American Diocese that commonly was called the Metropolia. The formation of any of these Vicariates as Dioceses came apparently only after the granting of autocephaly to the the "Metropolia" and, thus, bishops of these sees prior to 1970 were apparently "titular/vicar/assistant bishops, not diocesan bishops. A question in my mind is, were the bishops of the "ethnic dioceses" vicars or ruling bishops?
  
== choice of a religion ==
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The picture for bishops and dioceses of ROCOR in North America is less clear as to when the "titular" sees ceased being "titular" and may have become real dioceses.
  
Majority of us follow the religion of our parents.We are either circumcised in infancy or recited verses of a particular book in our ears declaring it as our religion before we understand its implications. When we grow up in a particular culture and society we have friends and relative we go along with them to church/synegogue/mandar or masjid.How can we when we are grown up sacrifice all our friends/ relatives by opting for another religion.How can all those whom I loved and cared about can be wrong or I will take the risk of isolation.There is hardly a very little percentage that study different religions and adopt the one that is more convincing or appeals to thier logic.In a survey conducted by me it was revealed that 80% of them have not read the divine book of thier religion in a language that they understand. Their knowledge of their religion was based upon oral communication of a preist or thier parents. We since are infancy are brain washed that we are on the right path and rest every body is an infidel and deserves to be hated or may even be killed.When over 90% of human specie follow the religion by virtue of being born in a particular family and 80% do not read even the divine book of thier religion than what difference does it make that one follows any of the religions.Asif azam
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Recent updates to articles about North American dioceses makes necessary a clear understanding of the evolution of the North American ecclesiastical structure so that Orthodoxwiki articles don't imply existence of dioceses before they came into existence.  
  
'''Well, I believe it doesn't matter what religion people are. In the Bible, Jesus never says that ONLY Christians get to heaven. One gets to heaven by carrying out Jesus' word: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked... --<font color="teal">[[User:Iliada|Iliada]]</font><font color="teal" size="100px"></font> 10:45, May 12, 2009 (UTC)
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The above is my assumption of the history of the development of the dioceses in North America. Sources/references and text within articles that clarifies the evolution of the North American structure are needed to assure accuracy in the articles. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 05:07, September 12, 2012 (HST)
'''
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: Hello! I wouldn't want to explain too much here, just wanted to warmly greet you and note that you are right about most of the things. You are very fortunate to be born as an Orthodox Greek, and I believe you will be able to find a good priest near you, who can talk to you about the things you wrote here. Not everyone is so lucky to inherit from the ancestors the true faith and true worship.
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== GOARCH link URLs format ==
  
: ''We since are infancy are brain washed that we are on the right path and rest every body is an infidel and deserves to be hated or may even be killed.'' - I would think the opposite, that it is not the orthodox christian family and church that brainwashes us, but rather the "other" culture is having a great influence on us. And, of course, you won't be able to find hatred and "deserves to be killed" attitude in the orthodox church and family (if you still manage to do so, that would be an exception). Actually - what you are saying is a good example of that :-)
+
One thing I'm constantly running into (and correcting as I go along) is the format of URLs leading to GOARCH's Online Chapel Saints pages being out of date (and leading to the "that page doesn't exist" message). They have changed formats at least once (maybe twice based on what I've seen here), and unfortunately, they haven't set any redirects, whether programmatically or via HTTP 301. (I've thought about contacting them about it, but haven't gotten up the nerve to do so)  
  
: However, this is an encyclopaedia, a virtual community, the real community is in the church. Gia sou. [[User:K.panteleimon|K.panteleimon]] 20:12, June 24, 2009 (UTC)
+
Example:
 +
* (old, broken way): http://goarch.org/en/chapel/saints/1180
 +
* (current way): http://goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=1180
  
== New Orthodox Website Alert ==
+
I've pondered a bit about what should be done here. Obviously, one thing -- which I'm already doing -- is making the necessary correction every time I see one on a page. However, that's just a few out of the potentially ''hundreds'' of outdated links there could be. Something else could be developing a bot that would search all pages and update the links automatically. I don't know ''how'' to do that, but I know ''what'' they'd need to do. Anyways, I just wanted to bring it to everyone's (in particular the sysops') attention, as this is (warning: assumptions lie ahead) a widespread problem, and a potential hindrance from people getting the proper information (i.e. not knowing how to get to the right URL, or just giving up and saying "oh well, another bad link"). It may seem like a small thing, but it definitely means a lot to me, as I would hate for people to not be able to easily get to the information they need.
  
Hey all, a new orthodox website has been launched ... you might all like to take a look and if anyone knows if this site needs to be referenced within any OrthodoxWiki articles can you please add as a link (if you know where).
+
If I can help, other than my edit-one-when-I-see-it method, just let me know. [[User:Paharwell|Phil Harwell (paharwell)]] 08:36, December 11, 2012 (HST)
  
http://www.orthodoxmysteries.com
+
== Canonicity of Revelation ==
  
== List of Orthodox churches in a particular region ==
+
27 January 2013
I recall that we had a discussion at one point about taking the lists off OW where possible - what was the outcome of this discussion? &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 00:13, May 23, 2009 (UTC)
+
  
== National Saints? ==
+
I am in research on a book dealing with the issues surrounding the acceptance of the book of Revelation into the New Testament. (Definitely not an exegetical commentary – there are many hundreds of them already!) I would appreciate some advice on a specific area of research that is giving me difficulty: the history of Revelation’s acceptance in the Eastern church in the 2nd through 5th centuries, and perhaps later.
 +
In publications I have found so far, there is sometimes a distinction drawn between the acceptance of Revelation in early Western vs Eastern Christianity: acceptance was much more rapid and widespread in the West. I have yet to find, however, much insight into why acceptance was slower in the East. What was the nature of the misgivings that the fathers of the Eastern church evidently had? Who, by name, expressed those misgivings? When, how, and under what circumstances? What finally prompted the Eastern Christian churches to accept Revelation? Did they do so gladly or grudgingly? How do Orthodox Christians tend to see Revelation today? Is it often preached? Were there other issues or background that I seem not to have contemplated? Can you recommend books or articles that address these matters?
  
I couldn't find a discussion on this issue elsewhere, sorry if I repeat an issue which has already been elaborated.
+
To hit only some highlights, these are factors that perturbed the acceptance of Revelation in the Western church; perhaps they were voiced in the Eastern church as well:
  
The whole concept of ''national saints'' is odd to the (orthodox) christian mindset. We believe that in the Church ''there is neither Jew nor Greek'' (Gal. 3, 28).  
+
• Questions of apostolicity.  
  
It can also bring not little confusion, and potentially - uneccessary and unfruitful nationalistic quarrels. Look, for example, at the Saints pages on different languages - you'll find that saints listed in one national category in one language, are listed under a different nation in another language - because each nation tends to claim the saint its own.  
+
o     Revelation was probably written about 95 A.D. The disciple John (son of Zebedee) would have been quite old at this time, beyond normal life expectancy. There is reason to believe he died about 70 A.D.
  
The correct and orthodox approach is seen on the greek version of OrthodoxWiki - where the saints are categorized as we mention them in the Church - as Apostles, Martyrs, Monks etc. I guess that's why the national category ''Greek'' is missing - (metanoia to the greeks for that)!
+
o     The Greek language of Revelation is quite different from the Greek of the Fourth Gospel, strongly indicating they could not have been written by the same person.
  
Thus, I would like to suggest that the Saints categories of each language are reworked and the national prefix is removed. Of course the national origin of the saint can be mentioned in the text (although it can often be easily disputed), but it is not something that can categorize a saint.
+
o     John bar Zebedee was not known to have had an oversight responsibility of the seven churches to whom Revelation was addressed.
  
[[User:K.panteleimon|K.panteleimon]] 21:19, May 31, 2009 (UTC)
+
• Questions of orthodoxy.
  
:As a Greek Orthodox, I grew up knowing Saints for who they where and what they did ... just like you point out ... this idea of "national" saints was introduced to me through the internet - it goes to show that bad habits can spring up from internet as well as the good things. If the administrators are happy to change this philosophy of "nationalism" I am happy to put in the work to change all the articles ... but there would need to be some sort of discussion between the administrators about it. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 02:45, June 1, 2009 (UTC)
+
o     Revelation shares characteristics with many Gnostic writings, especially in its good-evil dualism and its frequent focus on secret knowledge.
  
:: The grouping of saints into such categories is not for the purpose of nationalism, ethnocentricity, etc. Rather, it is simply for the usefulness of being able to find saints associated with particular geographic areas.
+
o     Revelation speaks of the Millennium, the thousand-year period after Christ’s return when all believers live happily with Him on earth before the final confrontation with Satan. This concept is absent from the Gospels and Epistles, and it is one of the reasons that Cerinthus (active in Asia Minor at the time Revelation was written there) was declared a heretic.
  
:: The saints are, of course, universal in a theological sense.  But people from Corfu, for instance, have a great veneration for St. Spyridon because of his association with that actual place.  At my parish, we venerate [[Raphael of Brooklyn]] because he founded it.
+
o     It is not difficult to read in Revelation a theology of salvation by works rather than of salvation by grace through faith in Christ.
  
:: I'm of the opinion that we might want to rename the various categories to indicate place-names rather than what at least for now appears to be ethnic designations. (Mind you, some designations have no real ethnicity attached to them, e.g. "American" or "Australian.")  &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 22:21, June 1, 2009 (UTC)
+
Any insights or recommendations on the Orthodox perspective on the canonicity of Revelation would be most welcome. I expect to be in research for the rest of 2013, with writing in early 2014.
  
:Without contradicting the main of what you were saying - the concept of saints as being particularly ''from'' a particular area isn't exactly new.  Aside from the concept of patron saints of a country, there are numerous icons and feastdays celebrating All Saints of [Nation/Island/Mountain/Geographic Area] - usual commemoration for this is the sunday after All Saints. &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 23:14, June 24, 2009 (UTC)
+
Thanks very much
  
== OrthodoxWiki on Serbian ==
+
David in
 +
Lexington, VA
 +
[[User:Mullerjrd|Mullerjrd]] 13:43, January 27, 2013 (HST)
  
I am interest to develop a sr.OrthodoxWiki.org page. Would anubody can help me?
+
:: Hi David, Unfortunately I don't have any resources in mind (you might check more general Orthodox sources on Scripture). Basically, we do accept Revelation as a canonical book, but we do not read it liturgically and so it is relatively unemphasized (but still significant!). We do not accept "millennialism" and are basically "amillennial". I wonder if anyone else knows of specific resources that might be helpful? — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 21:43, January 31, 2013 (HST)
 
+
: Hi there. There used to be a serbian version, if I'm not wrong, the responsible person was Далибор Ђурић, a theology student at the faculty of Belgrade (That was written on his user page). However, I don't know what exactly Fr. John meant with this [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza#Closing_down_OrthodoxSource_and_SR]] if SR was the serbian version... [[User:K.panteleimon|K.panteleimon]] 20:00, June 23, 2009 (UTC)
+
 
+
::Hi! Yes, we closed it does since it had sat uncared for for a long time and didn't have much content to begin with. If you can put a team together, and translate the necessary policy docs, I'd be happy to see this take off again! — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])
+
 
+
==Images in Commons and the main Wiki==
+
Some time ago the file of images that were part of the main body of OrthodoxWiki was transferred to a new sub-set of the Wiki called 'OrthodoxWiki Commons' with instructions that Commons was to be used for uploading images files. But the older set of files remain in the main body and is addressable through the 'Starting points' of the Main Page of  OrthodoxWiki. One can still upload images to the old file set. Since the original image files are still usable, a number of contributors still use the old images file system and the images are 'lost'!
+
 
+
I suggest that the old file system be removed from OrthodoxWiki and that the Main Page Images 'Starting points' be changes to directly work with the Commons system so that images can be placed in only one system of files. There are a number of image files that need to be transferred from the old file set to Commons, such as those added and used in the article [[Studenica Monastery]].
+
:Notice now that the Studenica images are in Commons. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 19:53, August 20, 2009 (UTC)
+
 
+
I also notice rummaging through the 'cellars' of Commons that some contributors have uploaded articles to Commons that probably should have been uploaded to the main Wiki. In this regard Commons needs a little cleanup. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 15:03, August 20, 2009 (UTC)
+
 
+
== The Legal Status of the Ecumenical Patriarchate ==
+
 
+
Interesting site and article:
+
 
+
[http://www.ortodoksi.net/index.php/The_Legal_Status_of_the_Ecumenical_Patriarchate The Legal Status of the Ecumenical Patriarchate]
+
 
+
[[User:HAP|HAP]] 07:12, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
+
 
+
: More:
+
 
+
: [http://www.ortodoksi.net/index.php/Written_question Turkey's delay in introducing protection for the rights of religious minorities]
+
: [[User:HAP|HAP]] 07:53, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
+
 
+
:: And more:
+
 
+
:: [http://www.ortodoksi.net/images/f/f1/Tr_rapport_2009_en.pdf TURKEY 2009 PROGRESS REPORT, look at pages 22 ->]
+
 
+
:: [[User:HAP|HAP]] 14:14, October 31, 2009 (UTC)
+
 
+
== Hands of Jesus and the Saints in icons ==
+
 
+
I was wondering what the sign Jesus and the saints make with their right hand means. Is it a form of the sign of the cross? Also, why do some vary? I know of two different stlyes. One in which the pinky is up, and other in which it is down. Sometimes the fingers don't touch. Other times the palm is facing in, not out. What is this significance?
+
 
+
== Hands of Jesus and the Saints in icons ==
+
 
+
I was wondering what the sign Jesus and the saints make with their right hand means.
+
Is it a form of the sign of the cross? Also, why do some vary?
+
I have seen several different forms of this.
+
One in which the pinky is up, and other in which it is down.
+
Sometimes the fingers don't touch.
+
Other times the palm is facing in, not out.
+
What is this significance?==Serbian language articles
+
 
+
 
+
I believe it is the blessing sign. When Christ,
+
Saints and Orthodox priests show their hand with the
+
pinky up they make the famous initials of Christ
+
IC XC,(meaning Jesus Christ) with their hand. Even when you go to Divine
+
Liturgy when the priest offers peace to us he does the
+
sign with his right hand.
+
 
+
==Serbian language articles==
+
I'm confused! Shouldn't the many Serbian language articles by Dilic be presented in Orthodoxwkl as a separate "Related Site" in Other Languages as are the many others? i.e., Arabic, Bulgarian, etc.  [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 18:06, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
+
 
+
== polish orthodox wiki ==
+
 
+
what do you think about polish orthodox wiki? Could it start running?
+
 
+
== German? ==
+
 
+
I speak and write in German. I would be interested in starting German pages, how would I do so? [[User:Lukasbreen|Lukasbreen]] 03:01, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
+
 
+
==1500 ro articles==
+
At May 27, 2010, ro.OrthodoxWiki.org achieved 1500 articles. :-) --[[User:Inistea|Inistea]] 23:38, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
+
 
+
==Monastery Sub-Categories==
+
I notice that we have a mixed definition of placement of monasteries in the monastery sub-categories. There is a mix of monasteries based geographically and "ethnically", that is by jurisdiction. This is confusing and heightens ethnic  deviousness, especially in the new worlds. I recommend the sub-category assignments be made on a geographical basis only. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 23:51, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
+
 
+
:Hi Wsk, I think it might be helpful to sort by jurisdiction and don't find it divisive. -— [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 04:51, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
+
 
+
==Aubert of Avranches - Orthodox Saint?==
+
Greetings. I have a question as to whether [[w:Aubert of Avranches|Aubert of Avranches]] (+720) is in the Orthodox Canon of Saints, (Western Church Saint). The Wikipedia article says his feast day is Sept. 10, but I did not find him under that date here in OW. Checked a couple other sites too, no luck. Apparently the Archangel Michael is said to have appeared to him three times.  Any idea? (Here is the entry from the Timeline of Church History article):
+
 
+
*709 Bp. [[w:Aubert of Avranches|Aubert of Avranches]] founds the monastery of [[w:Mont Saint-Michel|Mont Saint-Michel]], after the [[Archangel Michael]] appeared him in 708, instructing him to build a church on the rocky islet; [[w:Mont Saint-Michel|Mont Saint-Michel]] becomes popular and prestigious as a centre of pilgrimage.
+
Cheers, [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 21:45, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
+
 
+
==Proposed Category re:Saints==
+
I was over at the [http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/saintsa.htm OrthodoxEngland] website, and I noticed the very interesting title for the list of saints as '''“Latin Saints of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Rome”'''. I was thinking it would be nice to have a category to group all the Western Orthodox Saints. It could be called a variety of things, such as '''“Western Orthodox Saints”''', or '''“Western Saints of the Orthodox Church”''', but I think the way it is called at ''Orthodox England'' is far better. I propose we create the category with that name: ''Category:Latin Saints of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Rome''.
+
 
+
I understand that the need to have such a distinction is not as important here on OW, as say it would be on Wikipedia for example, because on Wikipedia all Orthodox Saints have the sole category “Eastern Orthodox Saints” (apart from a few other ethnicity or geography based categories). To put “Eastern Orthodox Saints” today on say, a Welsh saint, while accurate, is also a touch misleading or ambiguous/not smooth. And so, I am wondering, what would be the best title for such a category? I think it deserves a category of its own. -— Cheers, [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 21:45, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
+
 
+
==Psalter==
+
anyone know anything about the quote on the article titled [Psalter], from "one modern commentator," about the Psalter is the golden thread running through the fabric of Orthodox worship? I'd like to know who said that...I might be able to use it in an essay I'm writing about a completely different topic :)
+
Thanks,
+
Manoli
+
 
+
==Thumbnails Error==
+
I have tried to include images on articles a few times today, and i reciece the follwong error, whether I use the "thumb" syntax or a size syntax (such as 300px)..same error:
+
 
+
:Error creating thumbnail: <br />
+
:<b>Warning</b>: passthru() has been disabled for security reasons in
+
:<b>/home/owiki/public_html/shared/includes/GlobalFunctions.php</b> on line <b>1839</b><br />
+
 
+
Any ideas?
+
Thanks, [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 21:03, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
+

Revision as of 00:43, February 1, 2013

In a monastery, a trapeza (or refectory), is the dining hall where monks and pilgrims gather for food and conversation (although monks don't usually talk during meals). The OrthodoxWiki trapeza serves as the main discussion point for our website. Please feel free to join in—ask anything, suggest an idea, make a comment. We're glad to have you here. For other, more specifically designated discussion pages, check out the Community Portal.

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Contents

Holy Trinity Metafor

Hello,

Reading about the material universe, noticed that there are 3 infinities (or mysteries) that define our world:

1. --- The immensity of space-time, the boundless universe than nobody can say for sure how big it is, where it ends. Sure there are some theories that are accepted by most scientists, but also big anomalies if you apply the theory, that need to be corrected with inventions such as "dark matter" or "string theory" to fill in for obvious gaps.

2. --- The "small infinity" or mystery of the subatomic universe. We split the atoms in so many sub-particles, and the latest belief is that in fact all the matter is a concentration of energy. But where does matter end and pure energy begins?

I may be overcomplicating here, but it's just so poetic to notice how the science laws of the big universe and the small universe are in disagreement with each-other when it comes to apply the macrocosmos laws to microcosmos or the other way around, as if God intended things to be mysterious and impenetrable for the human mind.

3. --- The infinite complexity of life and intelligence. The connections in our brain are said to be more than all the stars in the universe. But how can this complexity come to be in only 4 billon years since our Earth is said to exist. This level of organisation of matter, first level: life, second level: intelligent life are both just unconceivable by science.

I want to ask you: could these 3 "infinities" be a reflection of the Holy Trinity in the material world? Or what is the theological view about those mysteries?

Thank you Mihai


New category

I was thinking of adding a category to be called "Propitiatory Offerings" where all of the things that are offered to God can be grouped together, inluding: Artoklasia, Kollyva, Proskomedia, Molieben, Incense, Myrrh, Votive Offerings, and things of this nature. Propitiatory Offerings in the Old Testament consisted mainly of sacrifices; in the Orthodox Church we have this new array of elements. Any ideas or comments? Is it accurate to describe it this way? Thanks and cheers. Angellight 888 20:34, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Propitiation is a problematic concept for Orthodoxy and one I wouldn't be willing to endorse (e.g., I would never say, "We offer up incense as a propitiation to God"). That said, though, I've never heard of these things really being grouped together in traditional Orthodox writings. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 14:05, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification Father, cheers, Angellight 888 14:09, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Calendar Days

Greetings. I had a look over at Wikipedia at their Orthodox "Calendar day" pages, and I liked how the pages were set up; instead of a block paragraph, with all the daily Saints blocked together as we have them here, they list them in a neatly ordered list (with bullets). This list could even be arranged chronologically for that particular day (i.e. with the oldest-in-time Saints listed first, the most recent saint for that day listed last).

Here is an example from Wikipedia for JUNE 4th. I would like to go into all of our Calendar Day pages for the entire year (all 365 days), and make the change form paragraph to list form, for ease of reading and better visual (and chronological) access. Would this be okay / sound good / any objections? (I don't mind doing the work). Cheers, Angellight 888 11:52, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Twitter feed showing drug spam

I saw the following in my twitter feed:


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FYI.

JonathansCornerCom 12:11, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

It's been fixed. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 18:20, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Great!

JonathansCornerCom 22:41, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

List of Enlighterners/Illuminators/Equals-to-the-Apostles

I realize that the purpose of the wiki structure is to allow anyone to edit. I hope OW will forgive my impertinence in merely suggesting (as opposed to creating myself) that it would be useful to have a list (or lists) corresponding to the different saint titles at illuminator .

I've thought of this because an LDS poster on a message board I frequent challenged non-LDS to name five of our own missionaries "whose exploits rival that of the LDS missionary work."

I think the OW category 'Missionaries' covers this with an extensive list. An article over a list of missionaries would be rather long! Wsk 01:22, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the response WSK! I'm not seeing the category for 'Missionaries'...what am I missing? Jkotinek 19:57, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
NM. Found it. = ) Jkotinek 20:00, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Confesion

Where may I find info abour Confession? I did a search for that subject & coldn't fnd it. After a long absence from Church, I returned in February 2012. I've had four o five cnfessions snce then. Every tme I try to confess, I'm often fogettng sins. Dad told me it's okay to say "I can't recall others, but I read that it's not ok May 12, 2012 Brooklyn, NY Thank you Irene Nikolsky

I think it's good to talk with a priest, but also you might find some helpful resources at http://stspress.com/ or http://svspress.com - — FrJohn (talk) 16:34, May 12, 2012 (HST)

Basic Information

Is there a website that helps people and/or teenagers with basic Q&As about our religion? I have teen son, who was baptized Orthodox. Because my church is in Russian he doesn't want to go. I thought if I could find basic info for him, then he'd believe me that there are English speaking Eastern Orthodox members. Thank you, Irene Nikolsky Broolyn, NY

Greetings Irene. Of course, there are A LOT of English-speaking (and non-Russian) Orthodox people -- For Q+A, you might try http://orthodoxanswers.org/ -- — FrJohn (talk)

Orthodox wiki stats

Is there a way to look at statistics for various pages by day, week, month, and year? --Kalvesmaki 16:03, May 17, 2012 (HST)

Diocese evolution in North America

One aspect that I have had in preparing my contributions to Orthodoxwiki concerns an accurate presentation of the ecclesiastical structure of the Orthodox in North America. While sources concerning the earliest century, notably in the OCA 1975 publication, give a fairly clear picture of the founding of dioceses and vicariates, the last century is blurred.

Various sources seem to present a good picture of the history of the structure of the Greek and Antiochian diocese, but the picture within the Russian based organizations gets blurred as the twentieth century progressed. The history of the Russian mission to North America seems clear to the first decade of the twentieth century when the Vicariates of Alaska and Brooklyn were formed. As hierarchs were installed with sees named Canada, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Winnipeg, Montreal, San Francisco, Detroit, Boston, and others through the time of the Metropolia, apparently as Vicariates of the North American Diocese that commonly was called the Metropolia. The formation of any of these Vicariates as Dioceses came apparently only after the granting of autocephaly to the the "Metropolia" and, thus, bishops of these sees prior to 1970 were apparently "titular/vicar/assistant bishops, not diocesan bishops. A question in my mind is, were the bishops of the "ethnic dioceses" vicars or ruling bishops?

The picture for bishops and dioceses of ROCOR in North America is less clear as to when the "titular" sees ceased being "titular" and may have become real dioceses.

Recent updates to articles about North American dioceses makes necessary a clear understanding of the evolution of the North American ecclesiastical structure so that Orthodoxwiki articles don't imply existence of dioceses before they came into existence.

The above is my assumption of the history of the development of the dioceses in North America. Sources/references and text within articles that clarifies the evolution of the North American structure are needed to assure accuracy in the articles. Wsk 05:07, September 12, 2012 (HST)

GOARCH link URLs format

One thing I'm constantly running into (and correcting as I go along) is the format of URLs leading to GOARCH's Online Chapel Saints pages being out of date (and leading to the "that page doesn't exist" message). They have changed formats at least once (maybe twice based on what I've seen here), and unfortunately, they haven't set any redirects, whether programmatically or via HTTP 301. (I've thought about contacting them about it, but haven't gotten up the nerve to do so)

Example:

I've pondered a bit about what should be done here. Obviously, one thing -- which I'm already doing -- is making the necessary correction every time I see one on a page. However, that's just a few out of the potentially hundreds of outdated links there could be. Something else could be developing a bot that would search all pages and update the links automatically. I don't know how to do that, but I know what they'd need to do. Anyways, I just wanted to bring it to everyone's (in particular the sysops') attention, as this is (warning: assumptions lie ahead) a widespread problem, and a potential hindrance from people getting the proper information (i.e. not knowing how to get to the right URL, or just giving up and saying "oh well, another bad link"). It may seem like a small thing, but it definitely means a lot to me, as I would hate for people to not be able to easily get to the information they need.

If I can help, other than my edit-one-when-I-see-it method, just let me know. Phil Harwell (paharwell) 08:36, December 11, 2012 (HST)

Canonicity of Revelation

27 January 2013

I am in research on a book dealing with the issues surrounding the acceptance of the book of Revelation into the New Testament. (Definitely not an exegetical commentary – there are many hundreds of them already!) I would appreciate some advice on a specific area of research that is giving me difficulty: the history of Revelation’s acceptance in the Eastern church in the 2nd through 5th centuries, and perhaps later. In publications I have found so far, there is sometimes a distinction drawn between the acceptance of Revelation in early Western vs Eastern Christianity: acceptance was much more rapid and widespread in the West. I have yet to find, however, much insight into why acceptance was slower in the East. What was the nature of the misgivings that the fathers of the Eastern church evidently had? Who, by name, expressed those misgivings? When, how, and under what circumstances? What finally prompted the Eastern Christian churches to accept Revelation? Did they do so gladly or grudgingly? How do Orthodox Christians tend to see Revelation today? Is it often preached? Were there other issues or background that I seem not to have contemplated? Can you recommend books or articles that address these matters?

To hit only some highlights, these are factors that perturbed the acceptance of Revelation in the Western church; perhaps they were voiced in the Eastern church as well:

• Questions of apostolicity.

o Revelation was probably written about 95 A.D. The disciple John (son of Zebedee) would have been quite old at this time, beyond normal life expectancy. There is reason to believe he died about 70 A.D.

o The Greek language of Revelation is quite different from the Greek of the Fourth Gospel, strongly indicating they could not have been written by the same person.

o John bar Zebedee was not known to have had an oversight responsibility of the seven churches to whom Revelation was addressed.

• Questions of orthodoxy.

o Revelation shares characteristics with many Gnostic writings, especially in its good-evil dualism and its frequent focus on secret knowledge.

o Revelation speaks of the Millennium, the thousand-year period after Christ’s return when all believers live happily with Him on earth before the final confrontation with Satan. This concept is absent from the Gospels and Epistles, and it is one of the reasons that Cerinthus (active in Asia Minor at the time Revelation was written there) was declared a heretic.

o It is not difficult to read in Revelation a theology of salvation by works rather than of salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

Any insights or recommendations on the Orthodox perspective on the canonicity of Revelation would be most welcome. I expect to be in research for the rest of 2013, with writing in early 2014.

Thanks very much

David in Lexington, VA

Mullerjrd 13:43, January 27, 2013 (HST)
Hi David, Unfortunately I don't have any resources in mind (you might check more general Orthodox sources on Scripture). Basically, we do accept Revelation as a canonical book, but we do not read it liturgically and so it is relatively unemphasized (but still significant!). We do not accept "millennialism" and are basically "amillennial". I wonder if anyone else knows of specific resources that might be helpful? — FrJohn (talk) 21:43, January 31, 2013 (HST)
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