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		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki_talk:Administrators</id>
		<title>OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators</title>
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				<updated>2009-02-17T21:06:47Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Guess What Needs Moderating Again? */&lt;/p&gt;
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'''If you are here to appeal a warning issued by a sysop''', be sure first to read carefully over the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]] to see if you have in fact violated it.&lt;br /&gt;
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If you feel that you have not violated the policy, then you may post an appeal here to ask other sysops (not the one who issued the warning) to review the act and possibly reverse the decision.  The sysop who issued the warning may defend his doing so in the discussion, but he is not hearing the appeal.&lt;br /&gt;
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To post an appeal, do so by clicking the '''+''' at the top of this page (next to the '''edit''' tab) and including a brief subject line, so that your appeal will have its own section for discussion.  In the main body, please describe why you feel that your behavior was not a violation of official policy.&lt;br /&gt;
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Please note:  '''Whether or not someone else &amp;quot;deserves&amp;quot; to be warned or banned is irrelevant in your appeal.''' The only issue at hand is your own behavior.&lt;br /&gt;
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As per the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]], once three sysops have examined the appeal and voted, a majority of votes either in favor or against overturning it decides the case.&lt;br /&gt;
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Thanks!&lt;br /&gt;
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== Liturgy of St. Tikhon Page Needs Moderating ==&lt;br /&gt;
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As you can see, a poster who goes by [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User:Fr_Lev &amp;quot;Fr Lev&amp;quot;] has started another [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=history &amp;quot;edit war&amp;quot;] on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon page. He has also started a long, self-contradictory explanation on its [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow Talk page], and I, probably unwisely, tried to respond to give a rationale for my edits to the moderators. This same poster waged three similar efforts against me this February 12-14 on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=history Liturgy of St. Tikhon], the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&amp;amp;action=history Liturgy of St. Gregory], and the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;action=history main Western Rite] pages (and got at least one of them locked). He throws fits anytime anyone corrects his articles, accusing them of &amp;quot;personal animus&amp;quot; (see [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Misinformation here] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#ANSWER here]) or says they are [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Precisions_for_fr_Lev &amp;quot;being silly&amp;quot;].&lt;br /&gt;
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I have '''not''' undone his latest reversion-of-a-reversion (the second in 24 hours), because Fr. Andrew [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection specifically warned] this poster the last time this happened, &amp;quot;If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned.&amp;quot; I will not restore accurate information at this time, but I've given the reasons I think it should be. I just don't want to be accused of participating in this nonsense, which is why I'm calling in &amp;quot;the adults.&amp;quot; :)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'd appreciate it if accurate, non-POV edits were not constantly replaced with inaccurate, misleading statements (which seem to serve an agenda) in endless edit wars. And we'd all appreciate it if we could go on contributing here without malicious charges of personal attacks. It's wearying. I'd appreciate if one of you could step in. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:18, June 27, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: My responses are noted on your [[User talk:Willibrord|talk page]].  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Come back, directory pages! ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Crud.  I didn't know these were going away, and I was quite baffled just now when I tried to search for them and couldn't find any.&lt;br /&gt;
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It was very nice to have all the various jurisdictions on one page.  I just used the Oklahoma page myself a couple months ago when we were in Tulsa and wanted to find a nearby parish.&lt;br /&gt;
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I took a look at OrthodoxyInAmerica.org, but just in Missouri I can see that some information is out-of-date, and the &amp;quot;Please allow three to four weeks for your submission to be processed&amp;quot; on the add/modify/delete page isn't encouraging at all.  The correction form is also annoyingly long if all you want to do is correct a misspelling or change the priest's name.&lt;br /&gt;
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Even if the directory pages here get out of date, it's far easier to edit and fix them, and many of us were happy to do so.  I would like to vote that they be brought back. {{unsigned|Kyralessa}}&lt;br /&gt;
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: If you think stuff on the OIA site tends to be out of date, it was worse here!  (Especially because we were constantly having to fend off various non-SCOBA types, etc.)  In any event, perhaps this might make a good project for [[osource:Main Page|OrthodoxSource]].  It's not really appropriate for an encyclopedia.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:27, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Hmm... I agree that the content was worthwhile, and I also recognize why Fr. Andrew wants to keep it out of the &amp;quot;encyclopedia.&amp;quot; It's not really the intention of OrthodoxSource, but we could move it over there... Or put it on another site. But, like he says... someone needs to moderate it. For my part, I'm not *too* opposed to its being on here. — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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:I wholeheartedly agree with Kyralessa: I too was baffled to see that the directory pages were gone, and think that deleting them wasn't a very good idea. I personally have submitted ''numerous'' corrections to Orthodoxy in America using their interminable form (duplicate entries, misspellings, non-existent parishes, new parishes and missions, new websites and email addresses, etc.) which have never made it to the database; here, it was only a matter of going to the page and editing it. And for whatever it's worth the OW parish listings that I saw were, on the whole, more accurate than those in OIA (but of course, I did not see them all). I do understand the problem to which Fr Andrew refers above and appreciate how hard it would be to implement a solution, but it's really a shame that this very useful and easily editable resource had to go. If the pages are reinstated here or recreated elsewhere and help is needed to monitor them, I'll be more than glad to help in any way I can. --[[User:Voxstefani|Esteban]] 08:26, September 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The plus side of the directories was that they invited folks to join OrthodoxWiki just to fix the inaccurate listings that they had knowledge of.  The negative side was that it was a enormous maintenance task to keep them standardized let alone accurate. (I myself liked them just for the links to the local parish websites.)   But if we do bring them back,  we may need to put a disclaimer, on each one of them, warning that they are only  maintained by users and nothing is guaranteed. - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 16:05, September 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::If my voice counts, I'd like to speak in favor of returning USA parish directory pages to Orthodox Wiki. Like some other people here, I've been having problems with orthodoxyinamerica. Their claimed response time (three to four weeks) is simply unacceptable, but the worst thing is - some submissions don't even get processed. My parish has recently moved from one city to another, and I've just submitted a listing update to OIA, but I'm not too optimistic about them updating it soon. --[[User:Alexei Kojenov|Alexei Kojenov]] 18:17, October 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Thanks everyone for your feedback. I totally agree that a good pan-Orthodox directory of Churches is needed... I think this might not be the place... but let me see about getting something up soon :-). — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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::Actually, have you seen the Parish Directory at [http://scoba.us scoba.us]? It's slightly out of date, and could contain more information, but it's decent and has nice maps. — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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== Appeal of Fr. Andrew's Inequitable Treatment ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Fr. Andrew issued an official warning to me over the [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]] page. I feel his actions represent highly inequitable treatment, arbitrary standards, and partiality in implementation of the rules. He acknowledged that the statements in question were ''not'' actually offensive (I quote: &amp;quot;no one of your comments recently has been above the top&amp;quot;) but issued one anyway. However, his entire comment, [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b#Some_straightforward_facts found here], is misleading. &lt;br /&gt;
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The warning came over the Talk page for St. Tikhon's Liturgy, the longest talk page on OrthodoxWiki and one of the most contentious. The discussion centered on an edit war a poster who goes by the ID &amp;quot;Fr Lev&amp;quot; instigated. He did the same to [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=history several] of my [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&amp;amp;action=history articles] between [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;action=history Feb. 12-14] of this year, getting at least one &amp;quot;Protected&amp;quot; as a result. &lt;br /&gt;
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As I [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:ASDamick#The_Reason_You_Make_the_Big_Bucks explained on Fr. Andrew's discussion page], the last time this poster started an edit war [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection Fr. Andrew, acting as a moderator, wrote], &amp;quot;If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period.&amp;quot; I made an edit to the St. Tikhon's Liturgy page and saw this poster immediately revert it. I reverted this article [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=history once], and he again immediately reverted it. When I saw this poster was again determined to continually revert to a previous edit, ''I left his version up'' and alerted Fr. Andrew I was ''not'' going to engage in an edit war but would abide by a moderator's decision. Pistevo moved in and moderated that poster's objections; I think the moderator would testify I proved more than willing to cite sources and answer objections with verifiable facts. (Perusing the gargantuan archives of that Talk Page would prove that. Note: The discussions were not written chronologically, and since comments were split up, not all were signed -- making it somewhat hard to follow.) Ultimately, Pistevo agreed I had proven my point from third party sources.&lt;br /&gt;
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At essentially that point, Fr. Andrew upbraided me for allegedly not referring to third party sources on a specific point (I had cited them) and furthering an edit war (see above).&lt;br /&gt;
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He then issued a warning for allegedly refusing &amp;quot;to engage the arguments without attacking those making them.&amp;quot; I think the substantive refutation of those arguments in the 80K talk page belies that. Moreover, the argument he warned me over, which he acknowledged was not ''actually'' objectionable in any way (!), was directed at that poster's ''argument'', not at ''him''; I did (and do) find his argument repetitive, semantical, and in error. However, '''it is far from even-handed treatment''' that Fr. Andrew warned me, much less only me, for behavior he did not find objectionable and which the other poster had done much more than I could dream of. Although I am not quick to claim offense, you'll verify in the Talk Archives ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1a archives 1a] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b 1b]) that this poster has repeatedly used ''ad hominem'' attacks against me, writing that I am someone who &amp;quot;wishes to pretend&amp;quot; my edits were true and have made &amp;quot;an attempt to confuse&amp;quot; your readers about the matter ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior '''''both implying bad faith and imputing a hidden agenda''''']). In his rhetorical first-strikes, he's asserted I have made &amp;quot;false claims&amp;quot; and spread &amp;quot;misinformation&amp;quot; (try counting the number of times he used that word on that Talk page) through &amp;quot;misrepresentations&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;personal invective&amp;quot; (and then accused me of making statements I had not made). He wrote that I believe Met. PHILIP &amp;quot;is acting 'in ignorance or malice'&amp;quot; (!) My words are &amp;quot;silly&amp;quot;; &amp;quot;silly, incoherent, and demonstrably false.&amp;quot; And you'll notice [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow#Misinformation_continues who used the term Fr. Andrew referenced in his official warning as allegedly offensive, &amp;quot;puzzling,&amp;quot; first]. &lt;br /&gt;
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1. Fr. Andrew acknowledged in his message my words DID NOT go &amp;quot;over the top&amp;quot; and violate any standard. Thus, there is no ''habeas corpus'' here, if you wish. This seems to allow moderators to discipline people whenever they feel like it, reason or no reason. C.S. Lewis eloquently addressed the notion of [http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment], that we should punish others, not because they actually violate rules, but to deter them somehow. If no standard was broken, as Fr. Andrew admits, '''no punishment is in order'''.&lt;br /&gt;
2. If the mild comments he cited did violate the rules, the other poster's comments to which they responded did so far more. Yet I alone got reprimanded (and blamed for an &amp;quot;edit war&amp;quot; in return for following Fr. Andrew's instructions, as well). This implies partiality or a sliding scale of discipline. &lt;br /&gt;
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'''This is not equitable'''. I request that the moderators rescind said warning, send this poster an equal official warning, or (preferably) both. -[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:31, August 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I should add, Fr. Andrew did not follow through on his threat to ban that poster for conducting another edit war, either. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:32, August 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. Fr. Andrew is not just an admin here, but more importantly an Orthodox priest entrusted with the Holy Mysteries. Yours in Christ, --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 16:11, August 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I also fully support Fr. Andrew's actions.  I fail to see how a first warning is &amp;quot;punishment.&amp;quot;  A warning does not have to be &amp;quot;equitable.&amp;quot;  (I also fail to see how &amp;quot;(preferably) both&amp;quot; rescinding your warning while sending Fr Lev &amp;quot;an equal official warning&amp;quot; would be &amp;quot;equitable.&amp;quot;) —[[User:Magda|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;magda&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 17:29, August 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I have watched the by-play on the St Tikhon's Liturgy article. I am not knowledgeable about the liturgy and thus can't comment on it. But, I find the back and forth much like a &amp;quot;playground&amp;quot; dispute that a teacher is mediating and trying to end. As far as &amp;quot;punishments&amp;quot; a teacher can only treat the protagonists as they argue - thus the &amp;quot;punishments&amp;quot; can be &amp;quot;unequal&amp;quot;. I don't find Fr. Andrew's comments out of order as the discussion seems to be a &amp;quot;he did it - no he did it.&amp;quot; Let's be adults! Or are we getting into another &amp;quot;iota&amp;quot; argument. The 'big' one has lasted some 15 centuries. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 20:34, August 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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While I am not an administrator-- as someone who received a warning for an edit war from Father Andrew on a related topic and around the same time (which I have not formally disputed and will not because I was in the wrong), I also support Fr Andrew's moderation, as such warnings are applied not based on partisanship, but basic common sense. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:55, August 20, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
::The way I see this,  [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Appeals|the appeals policy]] is [[User:Willibrord]] has posted an appeal of a warning here,  and a panel of the first three sysops have volunteered by way of replies. It seems that they agree with the warning, so is there any thing else?  - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 15:52, August 20, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Nope.  Case closed, as per the policy.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 17:21, August 20, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::A warning to the other poster would have been an act of mercy; had Fr. Andrew followed through with his own threat, he would have banned that poster for starting another edit war.&lt;br /&gt;
::::The back-and-forth was not a playground thing but a case where I ''called in'' a moderator to forestall that poster’s edit war, confident I could prove my case with third-party documentation to a moderator’s satisfaction. And I did.&lt;br /&gt;
::::I disagree with the reasoning here: Orthodox don't believe in priestly infallibility; he acknowledged no rule had been violated; and rules by definition should apply equally. But I'll abide by your decision. &lt;br /&gt;
::::I'm not sure when Joseph Suaiden became an admin. This seems to indicate he's merely following me around the board.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:28, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: 1.  As I said in my comments, it was not any one of your remarks, but the preponderance of them together and the clear spirit which they convey, which I regarded as over the line.  That I happen to be a priest has nothing to do with it, really.  The panel of admins which volunteered to hear your appeal does, though.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: 2.  I did not feel that Fr. Lev violated the disciplinary policy since it was put in place, but you did.  (The warning was in response to posts by you ''after'' the policy was put in place.  We won't retroactively enforce it.)  In any event, whether he gets warned, banned, or whatever else.  To put it bluntly:  you're not an administrator, so you don't get to decide.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: 3.  Joseph Suaiden is not an admin, but it doesn't surprise me that he's watching this particular page.  (Of course, many editors simply watch [[Special:Recentchanges]].)  It wouldn't surprise me that any editor does so.  His comments on your receiving a warning are about as relevant as yours on Fr. Lev.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: 4.  You clearly disagree with how things are run here.  You have two options:  either work with the administration or stop editing.  The apparent (mind you, I don't know the state of your heart) hostility isn't going to get you much of anywhere.  I suggest taking a wiki-break or perhaps working on some articles which don't stir up such controversy.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:34, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::All the quotations from Fr. Lev I reproduce above, from the St. Tikhon Liturgy Talk page -- including those imputing a hidden agenda and assuming bad faith -- occurred '''after''' this policy was instituted ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy&amp;amp;action=history May 29, if I'm reading correctly]). You can verify that [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;limit=250&amp;amp;action=history here]. Unless you feel the words I quote above do not violate this policy, and my milder words do, the implementation of this policy was not even-handed.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Miscommunication often comes from divining a &amp;quot;clear spirit&amp;quot; rather than reading someone's words themselves. Anyway, my disagreement was on your particular handling of this situation, and I agreed to abide by the decision here. And I've already moved on. But I do not feel this was equitable implementation. If you were under the impression his words were before the policy was implemented, you were mistaken.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:24, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== The problem moves to the Liturgy of St Gregory page ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Since the Liturgy of St Tikhon page is locked and Willibrord has lost his appeal of the warning, he has now moved on to the Liturgy of St Gregory page and removed the reference to the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', even though the entry as it stood said most AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal''. But since (1) some AWRV parishes do use the SASB; (2) the SASB is published by the Antiochian Archdiocese; and (3) the SASB contains a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP identifying the contents of the SASB as authorized liturgies for the Archdiocese, Willibrord's edit seems to be another attempt to edit the article not according to the facts but according to his personal preference of service book. I will refrain from changing the edit; however, I do think that in a straightforward case like this, such editing amounts to propaganda and should not be permitted. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:29, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Nope, Pistevo has ruled the OM/SASB issue is settled in favor of the SASB. Thus, this correct information was posted elsewhere in place of inaccurate information. If there's a problem, it's a refusal to abide by her ruling. &lt;br /&gt;
:I am most tired of these polemical attacks on everything I write. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:03, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Just for reference, [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]] is male.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:37, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::What's the emoticon for &amp;quot;I'm so embarrassed&amp;quot;? Like I was I saying above, assumptions.... --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:26, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::If memory serves, :-$ - and for what it's worth, you're the second person on here to assume that...are people trying to tell me something? :P &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 02:03, August 23, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::It's your gentle Christian manner. :-) A thousand pardons (asked with crimson face). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 13:54, August 23, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Moderation needed on Liturgy of St Gregory page ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Willibrord has again changed the Liturgy of St Gregory page, this time making the flase claim that the ''Orthodox Missa''l contains the &amp;quot;only&amp;quot; authorized text of the liturgy. The SASB, published a year '''after''' the ''Orthodox Missal'', was published by the Antiochian Archdiocese with a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP referring to it as &amp;quot;authorized&amp;quot; liturgies. The SASB is used by at least some AWRV parishes. To claim that the OM is the &amp;quot;only&amp;quot; authorized text betrays an interest in promoting something other than the facts. This matter is not settled. Neither Pistevo nor a subdeacon's thesis trumps the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese. IS Willibrod claiming that the SASB was not published by the Antiochian Archdioces? Is he claiming that the letter from Metropolitan PHILIP is a forgery, or that the Metropolitan doesn't have the authority to make such an authorization? Is he claiming that the AWRV parishes that use the SASB are using &amp;quot;unauthorized&amp;quot; liturgies in defiance of the Metropolitan? These are not matters of opinion; these are simple, straightforward, matters of fact. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:15, August 24, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:As noted above, Pistevo (he of the male sex!) has settled the question of OM vs. SASB authorization on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=1 Liturgy of St. Tikhon Talk page]. This is a straightforward matter of fact. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:07, August 24, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Guess What Needs Moderating Again? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Yep, it's the [[Western Rite]] page. The &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; PR squad seems intent on raiding the board. Take a look. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:42, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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For once we agree. Since I am being falsely accused (what's new) of being part of this 'squad' when I am trying to just keep the article from becoming slanted, I want moderation there as well.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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For the record, I'd like to make clear that what Willibrord is doing is at least indirectly in violation of OW policy (Agendas), and I'd like to bring it to your attention.&lt;br /&gt;
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If I kept a public blog where I repeatedly referred to someone's clerical title in quotes (say I didn't like Father Benjamin Johnson and so I wrote a bunch of articles referring to him as &amp;quot;Father&amp;quot; Benjamin Johnson), would I be an objective person to discuss concerning this individual on a Wiki? Probably not.  By deleting any reference to the liturgical work of someone who's made a real impact on the acceptability of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy, the Wiki is being done a disservice.  Since I've already gotten a warning on it, I may as well speak freely.  Am I wrong in assuming that Fr Aidan should be off-limits for Willibrord? &lt;br /&gt;
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I won't even discuss Willibrord's &amp;quot;contributions&amp;quot; on the Liturgy of St Tikhon, since others do anyway. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:41, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: What [[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] does on his own weblog is not OW's business, unless he chooses to import its contents or agenda here.&lt;br /&gt;
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: In any event, I'm not sure what the Agenda is (perhaps you can tell us).  Is it that all of Fr. Aidan's work is being systematically de-referenced on the wiki?  From what I can tell, his publications are worthy of mention and have made a notable enough impact to warrant their inclusion as reference in WR-related material on OW.  If that is indeed the Agenda, it needs to be cut out immediately.&lt;br /&gt;
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: And could someone please explain to me why it is that the WR articles always seem to draw such contentiousness?  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 22:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Well, it is one of the few areas of conscious development in contemporary Orthodox liturgics... building from that, it may be easy to see a crossover from Eastern liturgics which (for various reasons, better or worse) have been set in stone and earmarked under 'unchangeable', when Western liturgics is, while liturgics, obviously not set in stone... both mere possibilities, of course - but, at the very least, a definite image problem. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 14:12, February 17, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I submit that is precisely the agenda, and that a review of edits as well as condescending statements (referring to the OSRM as &amp;quot;authorized for use in a room in his sister's house&amp;quot;, for example, when Holyrood house, Christminster, St Petroc and their work--all places he for some reason *doesn't mind*-- are apartment chapels) can be submitted as proof. The pattern is obvious when you look at any mention of Father Aidan or the &amp;quot;Old Sarum rite missal&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
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Again, I agree with you on the putting up a private website-- normally. But searching for &amp;quot;Keller&amp;quot; on the blog establishes in this case -- the 'why' to the 'what' of the edits.&lt;br /&gt;
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In my opinion WR stuff is so contentious because since we are supposed to be the small minority of the West people think they are supposed to put on airs. We're so few that we tend to get louder to be heard.  That and Sarum is touchy for obvious political reasons, --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:05, February 17, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Sigh, I suppose I have to answer this....&lt;br /&gt;
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:'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me &amp;quot;personally&amp;quot; on his blog's &amp;quot;why&amp;quot; page (mission statement), calls me a &amp;quot;cultist,&amp;quot; and warns me to &amp;quot;prepare well. Because we have unfinished business.&amp;quot; (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|&amp;quot;warlike and unChristian&amp;quot;]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me.&lt;br /&gt;
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:'''As to the substance of the complaint''':&lt;br /&gt;
:I specifically refrained from removing the text's reference to the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal,&amp;quot; [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22|stating]], &amp;quot;Since I was [[User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism|falsely accused]] of 'vandalism' for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own.&amp;quot; (More about that below.) The agenda has, in fact, been the reverse: to &amp;quot;source&amp;quot; certain materials as often as possible to make themselves appear more important than they are. &lt;br /&gt;
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:The fact that Holyrood Monastery and St. Petroc's Monastery are small monasteries is immaterial; they are exclusively WR monasteries that celebrate a full cycle of Western Rite services, including WR hours and Mass/Liturgy. At St. Petroc, Sunday services are held at an associated church, not a home chapel. St. Petroc has a number of associated chapels, at least one sister mission (run by Fr. Barry Jeffries), and Fr. Michael celebrates WR liturgy on at least two continents each year. The &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; is not being celebrated anywhere within Orthodoxy to my knowledge, not even the Eastern or Western Archdioceses of the Milan Synod. Met. HILARION reportedly allowed its author to pray his translation of Sarum (presumably the hours?) for his private, home prayers, not in public (where he serves a Byzantine church). I'm not sure that is relevant to Western Rite &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot;; frankly, bishops allow priests to pray all sorts of things privately. I am even less certain two large pictures (one mislabeled) of that missal, not being celebrated anywhere, are a more appropriate graphic for an article about the WR than a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner (which [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;curid=838&amp;amp;diff=80850&amp;amp;oldid=80847 chrisg deleted in favor of the OSRM]). What's being &amp;quot;sourced&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;de-sourced&amp;quot; there?&lt;br /&gt;
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:The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc&amp;quot; recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|&amp;quot;anecdotal.&amp;quot;]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR &amp;quot;Congregations.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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:The thrust of the last two days' edits have been to introduce material that sure seems off-topic, give it a place of prominence not in keeping with reality (e.g., its not being celebrated publicly, or at all), and to contradict sourced statements with unsourced statements, which happen to exalt the Milan Synod, of which Mr. Suaiden is a member (or a Reader).&lt;br /&gt;
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:I hope this closes the hate-Ben-Johnson portion of the week, and the moderators -- having heard the evidence -- will green light sourced statements over unsourced ones. Then I can write about something I enjoy (the WR) not something I do not enjoy writing about (me). And maybe OW can return to its purpose of presenting well-written, factually correct articles, not assaulting its authors.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:06, February 17, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T23:12:49Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Liturgical Continuity */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
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:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
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::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context.  Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one).  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I think it falls under the concept of the &amp;quot;Liturgical Continuity&amp;quot; objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from &amp;quot;the Orthodox era.&amp;quot; The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Oh! Well, in that case that can be easily fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The overarching issue is that it's unnecessary: the criticism has been made succinctly. And answered.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:54, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Oh, no, I think it needs fixing. Thank you for your suggestion!--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:06, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The trouble is it is highly dubious that the Sarum Rite is &amp;quot;pre-Schism,&amp;quot; much less in any of the translations being celebrated within Orthodoxy. I suspect any Ambrosian Rite that is approved also contains elements that post-date 1054 A.D. I am not certain, off the top of my head, that the entire Ordinary of the Liturgy of St. Gregory is pre-Schism (that is, before 1054 -- although nearly all of it was/is). The general idea is best conveyed succinctly in the article already: &amp;quot;Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:20, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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If you doubt that the Sarum Rite is pre-schism, please address it on the Sarum rite page. The general understanding of virtually all historians on the rite is that it is easily traced to the 11th century.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:32, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Actually, the [[Sarum Use]] page addresses that: &amp;quot;The Sarum rite as known was probably arranged by Richard Le Poore, who moved the See from Old Sarum to New Sarum (Salisbury) in the 13th c.&amp;quot; Fr. Andrew Damick has written about this subject on this board himself, as I recall. It's hardly a new objection, much less is your pre-Schism claim &amp;quot;the general understanding of virtually all historians.&amp;quot; --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:40, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Then you are ignoring the corpus of historical research for modern Anglican scholarship. This, however, can be fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: As a point of fact:  I have never written about the Sarum Rite, since I have virtually no knowledge on the subject.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 21:59, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I knew I had seen Fr. Damick's signature associated with the contention that the Sarum is not pre-Schism. [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sarum_Use/Archive_1 Here it is]; it ''is'' your signature under the contention -- but only because you were breaking into comments made by another user (an expert on Sarum, has or is working on a Master's degree on the subject). Since you broke in, your signature appears after these comments, with his at the bottom. Sorry, my mistake. A photographic memory is only as good as what it sees. :) --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:12, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T18:44:33Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite Eucharist.  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Overview==&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Byzantine only==&lt;br /&gt;
Some argue that there is only the Byzantine liturgical tradition can be viable within the Church.  The argument's major weakness is that it ignores the wide liturgical variety characteristic of the first millennium of the Church's history.  Many Orthodox Christians currently boast of the Church's liturgical homogeneity, claiming that, no matter where one might go in the Orthodox world, the [[liturgy]] will be familiar, even if it's in another language.  However, their first millennium counterparts would have been incapable of making such a claim&amp;amp;mdash;even if only the Eastern liturgical tradition were taken into account.  It wasn't until the 13th century that the tradition of the Great Church (i.e., [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]]) became normative for the whole of Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Divisiveness==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism is that the Western Rite is inherently divisive.  Following different liturgical traditions than their neighboring Byzantine Rite Orthodox Christians, those using the Western Rite do not share liturgical unity with them and present an unfamiliar face to the majority of Orthodox Christians.  Again, this argument is based on the relatively new notion of liturgical homogeneity.  Likewise, differences exist between the various uses of the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==An Orthodox Unia?==&lt;br /&gt;
Related to liturgical division, the question of ongoing administrative division has been raised.  The situation of Western Orthodox parishes has been compared with the status of the autonomous [[Uniate]] churches under the [[Roman Catholic Church]].  For centuries, there have been hierarchical churches in [[full communion]] with and in subjection to the Vatican, but which the Pope allows to follow Byzantine liturgical customs and rules.  The Uniates, despite usages that more closely resemble the majority of Orthodox Christians, share a common dogmatic belief with Latin Rite Catholics.  Analogously, the Western Rite Orthodox share the same faith as their Byzantine Rite Orthodox brethren.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, unlike the [[Uniates]], Western Rite Orthodox congregations are not the result of large-scale ecclesiastical political machinations and [[schism]] but rather of small-scale genuine conversion to Orthodoxy by individuals and congregations.  Also, Western Rite congregations all adhere to the same bishops as their Byzantine brethren; they do not constitute a separate church of their own, unlike the Byzantine Catholics (&amp;quot;Uniates&amp;quot;) within Roman Catholicism.  Criticism of the Western Rite based on its similarity with the Uniates has been called guilt by association&amp;amp;mdash;overplaying a superficial similarity of form.  Because the ideas are analogous, the argument goes, they must therefore both be inauthentic developments.  Yet the more firmly established criticisms of Uniatism usually have nothing to do with rite but rather with dogma, ecclesiology, and allegedly subversive missionary work.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Conversion without conversion==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism often leveled against the Western Rite is based on the mainly [[convert]] makeup of most of its parishes.  The argument states that such Christians want to be Orthodox but &amp;quot;not too Orthodox,&amp;quot; so they keep their familiar rites under a new bishop.  The unstated assumption behind this argument, however, is similar to the argument against all non-Byzantine liturgical traditions:  That  Orthodoxy includes only the Byzantine Rite, and so if one wants to be truly Orthodox, one must also be Eastern.  Again, history shows otherwise.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Additionally, this argument also fails to take into account the longstanding history of some of these parishes.  For many of them, the Western Rite with an Orthodox Christian faith (though certainly sometimes outside canonical bounds) genuinely is the faith of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.  The argument fails to address the question of substance&amp;amp;mdash;that is, it does not address whether and why the Western Rite is or is not actually Orthodox.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is an accident of history that the Western Rite is not yet firmly established again within the Orthodox Church.  That most of its adherents are converts is not germane to the question of its Orthodoxy.  One might level the same accusation at predominantly convert Byzantine Rite parishes, that they need to learn to give up everything familiar in order to become Orthodox, whether it's language, culture, or some other facet of life.  Oddly enough, some have argued precisely that, saying, for instance, that English is incapable of expressing the Orthodox faith.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lack of liturgical continuity==&lt;br /&gt;
Finally, more historically minded criticisms of the Western Rite usually center around the idea that it is untenable to try to revive a liturgical tradition which was lost centuries ago when the West fell away from the [[Orthodox Church]].  This argument essentially states that, because the Western Rite died out in the Church, and because a continuous living tradition is a necessary element of liturgical practice, the Western Rite ought to be abandoned and only developments from the Byzantine Rite ought to be pursued.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created.  After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it. Another response to such criticisms is that the the many of the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bishop [[Jerome (Shaw) of Manhattan]] (ROCOR) also argues the little-known Liturgy of St. Peter, a [[liturgy]] outwardly identical to that of the Byzantine rite with the ancient Gregorian canon in its place, never fell out of use within Orthodoxy.  The Old Believers and others celebrated this, explicitly endorsing the validity of the Western canon.  At present, the historicity of this assertion is not universally accepted.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Further, the now fairly well-known [[Liturgy of St. James]] once fell out of use throughout most of the Church and has now been revived in many places to be celebrated on [[October 23]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ westernorthodox.blogspot.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html The Western Rite is Not &amp;quot;Reverse Uniatism&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ www.westernorthodox.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/index.html www.holy-trinity.org/modern]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], by Fr. Alexander Schmemann&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T18:42:33Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context.  Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one).  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think it falls under the concept of the &amp;quot;Liturgical Continuity&amp;quot; objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from &amp;quot;the Orthodox era.&amp;quot; The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh! Well, in that case that can be easily fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The overarching issue is that it's unnecessary: the criticism has been made succinctly. And answered.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:54, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, no, I think it needs fixing. Thank you for your suggestion!--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:06, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The trouble is it is highly dubious that the Sarum Rite is &amp;quot;pre-Schism,&amp;quot; much less in any of the translations being celebrated within Orthodoxy. I suspect any Ambrosian Rite that is approved also contains elements that post-date 1054 A.D. I am not certain, off the top of my head, that the entire Ordinary of the Liturgy of St. Gregory is pre-Schism (that is, before 1054 -- although nearly all of it was/is). The general idea is best conveyed succinctly in the article already: &amp;quot;Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:20, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If you doubt that the Sarum Rite is pre-schism, please address it on the Sarum rite page. The general understanding of virtually all historians on the rite is that it is easily traced to the 11th century.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:32, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Actually, the [[Sarum Use]] page addresses that: &amp;quot;The Sarum rite as known was probably arranged by Richard Le Poore, who moved the See from Old Sarum to New Sarum (Salisbury) in the 13th c.&amp;quot; Fr. Andrew Damick has written about this subject on this board himself, as I recall. It's hardly a new objection, much less is your pre-Schism claim &amp;quot;the general understanding of virtually all historians.&amp;quot; --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:40, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T18:40:17Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context.  Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one).  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I think it falls under the concept of the &amp;quot;Liturgical Continuity&amp;quot; objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from &amp;quot;the Orthodox era.&amp;quot; The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Oh! Well, in that case that can be easily fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The overarching issue is that it's unnecessary: the criticism has been made succinctly. And answered.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:54, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Oh, no, I think it needs fixing. Thank you for your suggestion!--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:06, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The trouble is it is highly dubious that the Sarum Rite is &amp;quot;pre-Schism,&amp;quot; much less in any of the translations being celebrated within Orthodoxy. I suspect any Ambrosian Rite that is approved also contains elements that post-date 1054 A.D. I am not certain, off the top of my head, that the entire Ordinary of the Liturgy of St. Gregory is pre-Schism (that is, before 1054 -- although nearly all of it was/is). The general idea is best conveyed succinctly in the article already: &amp;quot;Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:20, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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If you doubt that the Sarum Rite is pre-schism, please address it on the Sarum rite page. The general understanding of virtually all historians on the rite is that it is easily traced to the 11th century.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:32, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Actually, I believe Fr. Andrew Damick wrote to the contrary on OrthodoxWiki. It's hardly a new objection, much less is this pre-Schism claim &amp;quot;the general understanding of virtually all historians.&amp;quot; --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:40, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T18:38:09Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; 2 */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;*[[/Archive 1]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==New Changes==&lt;br /&gt;
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Folks, with the new receptions in ROCOR please understand that the party line vs. facts thing has to stop. Some new FACTS.&lt;br /&gt;
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1) St Hilarion press is not named after Archbishop Hilarion so there is no &amp;quot;different Archbishop Hilarion&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
2) Metropolitan Hilarion (formerly Archbishop of both Sydney and New York) are all the same guy.&lt;br /&gt;
3) He blessed Fr Aidan to use the same text as Milan's Western Archdiocese, largely Fr Aidan's own work.&lt;br /&gt;
4) He blessed Fr David (Pierce, formerly Father Cuthbert) to continue as he was, and he was using Milan's Eastern Archdiocese texts.&lt;br /&gt;
5) That makes the &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; ROCOR texts, in fact, Milan Synod usages. If you can get over jurisdictional bickering and focus on what is liturgically accurate, folks, a lot of pain will be avoided in this transition.&lt;br /&gt;
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Thank you.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:10, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Do you happen to have citations for the ROCOR receptions? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 06:31, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Physically? No, I just have public confirmations of them online.&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk Aidan was received as a hieromonk last week.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxWest/message/18669&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13045&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk David (formerly Fr Cuthbert, which makes no sense, given David was his birthname) was confirmed by Fr Steven Ritter.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13121&lt;br /&gt;
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I was not pleased with either of these confimations from my perspective, of course, but they did happen. Both were received in by chierothesia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:40, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The Archbishop Hilarion of Texas mentioned on the title page of the Sarum Missal published by St Hilarion Press is NOT the same person as Metropolitan Hilarion of New York (formerly Archbishop Hilarion of Sydney and Australia).  This is a factual point.  The Missal was not published with the authority of ROCOR. Authority for use in ROCOR, if granted, was very much later than original publication of the missal. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 09:41, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Methinks the issue here is of some ambiguous wording:  &amp;quot;In 2008, a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], was blessed to use his own translations of the pre-schism [[Sarum rite]], found in the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', by Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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:: This could be read in (at least) two ways:  1.  +Hilarion did the blessing.  2.  +Hilarion wrote the missal.  I think Joseph is reading it as #1, while Chris is reading it as #2.  Maybe y'all will want to work out some wording that's less ambiguous.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:29, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Splitting up article==&lt;br /&gt;
The article is getting huge, and y'all's good suggestions and plans would seem to make it even bigger.  Perhaps it should be transitioned into a general article with multiple sections, then each section having a &amp;quot;''Main article: [[Foo]]''&amp;quot; included at the top where [[Foo]] becomes the more detailed article on that subject.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 12:55, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Lack of liturgical continuity== &lt;br /&gt;
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Another thing this brings to mind is the note in the article on [[Daniel (Alexandrow) of Erie]] : &amp;quot;Also, simply doing his own extensive research on ancient rites came in useful during the elevation of Metropolitan Philaret in 1964. This was the first time the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia had elected a successor who was not a Metropolitan in episcopal rank, and inasmuch as the remainder bishops were of lesser rank themselves, many were unsure of the elevation in such a situation. However, thanks to the research of Bishop Daniel, who was yet a reader, the Synod of Bishops was able to essentially replicate the office of elevation of a Metropolitan as performed in 15th century Russia.&amp;quot; - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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: I'm also reminded of the restoration of the rite of [[enthronement|enthroning]] a patriarch of Moscow that was enacted when St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] was elected.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:04, November 7, 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Miscategorization of links==&lt;br /&gt;
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The letter of Patriarch Sergius I to Vladimir Lossky is not a 'criticism' of the Western Rite, but rather pro-Western Rite. - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Blogs?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Do we really want to include links to blogs as part of this encyclopedia? Blogs have nothing to do with [[NPOV]], and they often stray far afield from the purported topic. One I glanced at was recommending the writings of William F. Buckley, Jr. -- nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy! --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:31, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: If they're exclusively (or near-exclusively) topical, then linking them is fine.  If not, then no.  If the only thing that distinguishes the weblogs in question is that they're owned by WR people, then that doesn't seem enough to warrant a link.  Individual articles posted there could certainly be linked if they're substantial and contribute significantly to the topic.  There's no reason that the links couldn't be added to [[Online Orthodox Communities]], though.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:38, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: The blogs I linked were three:&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html The Western Rite section of Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog] (the section I linked) consists primarily of historical documents written by such as Fr. Alexander Turner, first Vicar-General of the Antiochian WRV -- precisely the sort of thing that should be linked to this page as a resource.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] is the blog to which our critic refers. Somehow he scrolled two screens down, skipped a photo and news story about the first Continuing Anglican bishop ever to convert to the WRV, and &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; at a sentence in the middle of a post about Western spiritual books, located above several stories concerning objections to the Western Rite and an article written by Fr. Hieromonk (Dom) James Deschene of Christminster Monastery (ROCOR, WR). Further down, he would have found patristic quotations on feast days, Byzantine practices that correlate with the Western Rite, and news about new Western Rite communities entering Oriental Orthodoxy. Our critic &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; only a one-sentence aside well down the blog, then hastened here to present it as the only content in the entire blog, which allegedly has &amp;quot;nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy!&amp;quot; How odd.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] is a source for this OrthodoxWiki webpage and is acknowledged as such. Certainly his valuable blog is on-topic.&lt;br /&gt;
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::As you can see, all are exclusively or near-exclusively topical. As such, I've added them all back to the page under &amp;quot;News and Views.&amp;quot; If the editorial team disagrees, feel free to remove them.&lt;br /&gt;
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::All three blogs are more on-topic for this OrthodoxWiki page than the listservs. This is particularly true of &amp;quot;Occidentalis,&amp;quot; which primarily discusses liturgies not currently practiced anywhere in Orthodoxy (I'm not referencing the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite&amp;quot; here but others besides that not authorized '''anywhere'''), acts as a clearinghouse for inaccurate anti-WRV rumors, and allows vagante Old Catholics to promote their own churches and titles.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Too bad my blog http://orthodox-okie.blogspot.com wasn't restore as well - it also is mostly a Western Rite Orthodox blog, though more towards the ROCOR usage (which might be why it was snubbed?) - [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 15:41, March 7, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Ari, don't imagine slights where there are none (especially during Lent, ''mon frere''). I didn't restore your blog, because occasionally you go 2-3 posts on something unrelated -- and I thought if a detractor was going to go crazy over one stray sentence, perhaps I'd better err on the side of caution. I added your blog to the [[Online Orthodox Communities]]. Feel free to add your blog to the [[Western Rite]] page, too. No offense meant to an outstanding blog. -- '''Willibrord'''&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: That was tongue in cheek. ;) No problem, I've actually thought about separating all the Western Rite Orthodox (and other Orthodox posts) to a separate blog, separate the wheat out from the tares. That might be a more appropriate link. [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 08:21, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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My remarks have been misunderstood and mischaracterized. I didn't say that the blog in question had nothing to do with Western rite Orthodoxy -- I said that the comments about William F. Buckley have nothing to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy. (BTW, I happen to like Mr. Buckley.) And although I didn't see anything outrageous on the website, I have seen other &amp;quot;Orthodox&amp;quot; blogs that do mix in a fair amount of partisan politics, and it's a road I would rather us not go down. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:52, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: With all due respect, I believe my comments were a fair reading of your words above, and your words above were not a fair reading of my blog nor even the post in question, for the reasons I pointed out. But it seems this discussion has run its course. -- '''Willibrord'''.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: As a related issue, it is perhaps best not to be involved in the promotion or lack thereof of one's own material.  Putting up a link is one thing, but if it becomes a contentious issue, it would seem best for the sake of neutrality to let others decide whether one's material is worthy of inclusion.  It's an inherent conflict of interest to do otherwise.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:05, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Some Corrections re France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted some inaccuarate information. (1) The Gallican liturgy was not a usage of the Roman rite. (2) The Gallican rite as restored by Bishop Jean Kovalevsky was almost entirely Western, drawing on various Western missals, sacramentaries, etc. Most of the borrowings from the Byzantine that form part of the ordinary today (which is a small part of the liturgy) were added c. 1960 at the direction of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. (3) Alexis van der Mensbrugghe was not a member of the French Church -- he worked with the French Church and taught at its St Denys Institute while the French Church was still a part of the Moscow Patriarchate. (4) I replaced the decription of the French Church as &amp;quot;in canonical limbo&amp;quot; with &amp;quot;isolation.&amp;quot; The use of the term &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; here is inappropriate. A good source for understanding this common misuse of the word is Fr Alexander Schmemann's article on the situation of the Church in America. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:41, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reworking ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I have substantially re-worked sections of this article in order to redress perceived (my perception) inadequacies/imbalances and to perhaps bring some sections more up to date&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted the section headed &amp;quot;criticisms&amp;quot; simply because I see no reason why we should be required to give space to the critics of Western Rite within Orthodoxy.  No one is going to take kindly to my adding a paragraph of criticism to a section of Orthodoxwiki which details the use of Chrysostoma in the diaspora, so I see no reason why we should have a criticism section here.&lt;br /&gt;
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I filled out some of the details of ROCOR's Western Rite activities and made other more minor adjustments.&lt;br /&gt;
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I will be only sporadically available over the next few weeks to defend my changes - so please don't take silence for anything other than the fact that I may not have seen a comment.&lt;br /&gt;
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Suggestion:  Do we need to include the picture of the &amp;quot;circus&amp;quot;.  This is ammunition for the critics of Western Rite - it even causes severe criticism within the ranks of Western Riters.  I see no reason for including this weapon which our detractors can and do use to disparage us.&lt;br /&gt;
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Offieriad-Mynach&lt;br /&gt;
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First of all, I am not sure why the page is closed off.  There are certain numbers of facts that are incorrect. The second largest grouping of Sarum-use parishes in the US is the Milan Synod, an Old Calendarist group.  The growth of the Synod has been a direct result of Orthodox people who have been fed up with the Vicariate's policy.  The Milan Synod's Western rite numbers are larger than that of ROCOR's.  Secondly, the Sarum use in Milan is not significantly different from that of ROCOR.  Even Fr Aidan Keller's work on the Sarum rite is not all that different; and that never was the official use of the New York Archdiocese anyway. -- Suaiden&lt;br /&gt;
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:See the rest of this talk page for why this article was protected - edit-warring, basically, mainly over the l'ECOF.  Of course, this is - as far as I can tell - quite unrelated to your points, so you may want to suggest the change on this page, where it can be incorporated into the article.  That said, I'm going to leave it to others (currently, tiredness is probably not helping my critical judgement) as to where Milan Synod fits into [[OW:MCB]]. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 12:15, April 27, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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And why is the eccleasistical status of the Synod of Milan somewhat down in the artile, while the Orthodox Church of France's was allowed to be placed in the lead section?--[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 18:15, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Not sure exactly what is being referred to...?&lt;br /&gt;
:In any event, I don't see why either should be placed in the lead section - the point of OW is for those classed under MCB (i.e. the 14/15 autocephalous churches), which neither belong to. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 23:00, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Language about the Church of France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The language I used is taken from the article on the Orthodox Church of France and was the result of one of the moderators, Fr John, resolving a dispute. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:31, February 13, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Not exactly. Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] said nothing about &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; but mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; That is broader than merely &amp;quot;the ancient patriachates.&amp;quot; L'ECOF is not in communion with any local Orthodox Church, either; hence, more precise language is needed. (This is, of course, a sanitized way of noting L'ECOF is not in communion with anyone and hence not canonical.) -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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Yes, EXACTLY. I pasted and clipped the sentence from the opening section of the article on the Church of France as Fr John approved it (and froze it). Your use of &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; is not accurate language, nor is &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox Churches&amp;quot; particularly illuminating -- recognized by whom? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 06:11, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: In some universally recognised Orthodox Churches, episcopacies are sold.  By doing this, these churches are &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot;, but are still universally &amp;quot;recognised&amp;quot; churches.  The term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is not congruent with either &amp;quot;generally recognised&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;universally recognised&amp;quot;.  In this context, &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; really is quite unhelpful. chrisg 2008 Feb 15 o2:51 EAST&lt;br /&gt;
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::Fr. John's exact wording is vastly superior to yours -- which again is inexact and misleading. By mentioning only &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates,&amp;quot; you may lead the reader to believe L'ECOF is in communion with some other autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church. You are not. Surely you don't wish to mislead anyone. Hence, clarification is needed -- probably on the L'ECOF page, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
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::&amp;quot;chrisg,&amp;quot; such character assassinations, inaccuracies, and malicious generalizations will not be useful on this site. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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The exat wording approved and frozen by Fr John in the article is &amp;quot;The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; You misrepresent what this says, since is refers not only to the ancient patriarchates, but to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Willibrord's continued attempts to edit the language adds NOTHING to the description except redundancy -- patriachates are autocephalous. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Yet Fr. John's exact wording was more precise than your continual edits. &lt;br /&gt;
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:If you intention is to communicate that L'ECOF is not in communion with any autocepahlous ''or'' autonomous Orthodox Church, surely you don't object to this being spelled out explicitly. There are those, like myself, who may not understand the nuance of your wording, which implies a different reality. After all, an The Orthodox Church of France is not currently recognized by nor in communion with any [http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_autocephalous_and_autonomous_churches autonomous or autocephalous church] is not necessarily a &amp;quot;patriachal&amp;quot; church, and some (the OCA) are not recognized by all &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; Yet the OCA does not recognize L'ECOF, either. Is L'ECOF in communion with some Orthodox Church, any Orthodox Church at all? If not, this wording better describes that and should not be changed to something more ambiguous. &lt;br /&gt;
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:Looks like it's time for someone to freeze this section again. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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First, it isn't my language that I'm repeating. Second, how does your edit add ANY information? Is there an Orthodox Church you have in mind that is NOT included in the phrase &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot;? Your language is less precise and less accurate. There are disputes as to what Orthodox Churches are autocephalous, for example. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:13, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: For the last time, not all &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; are patriarchal, nor are all those listed on OrthodoxWiki recognized by &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; (I'm thinking specifically of the OCA.)  &lt;br /&gt;
:As noted, Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; As you note, &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox churches&amp;quot; is not a widely used term; &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; is a more understandable substitute. Thus, my edit more closely reflects his wording and intentions than yours. It should replace yours, both here and in the L'ECOF article, and be frozen.-- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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There is no ambiguity or imprecision in the original wording. The OCA is &amp;quot;in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:24, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:There is greater precision on this language (not to mention an additional link to OrthodoxWiki). It seems your language is antiseptic and intended to introduce ambiguity about L'ECOF's actual canonical situation (namely, that it is in communion with no one). L'ECOF is not, in fact, in communion with anyone, is it? Why the roiling displeasure when this is so noted? &lt;br /&gt;
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:At any rate, this is a matter the administrators will have to settle. --[[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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It's not my language, and it's certainly not intended to introduce ambiguity. The language of &amp;quot;in communion&amp;quot; is imprecise, in that other Churches have certainly communed both lay and clerical members of the Church of France -- with the blessing of hierarchs of those Churches. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:36, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'm not sure how many times this article (and the Orthodox Church of France article) has basically been changed between one edit to the other, but I'm fairly sure it's in the double digits.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Irrespective, perhaps someone would be able to enlighten on why, in an overtly [[OW:MCB|Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias]]ed Orthodox encyclopaedia, it is not possible to say 'presently outside the Orthodox Church'?  It's not as if there is any ambiguity about the status, like there was until recently with ROCOR - this revert war has been between one set of words and the other set, when the point to communicate is that it is currently outside the Church, which can be done without needing to resort to any word above three syllables.  &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 09:42, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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First, we have had many months of peace and stability on these articles. Second, I have yet to see how changing the statement is in any way an improvement. Third, I think Pistevo's comments are unhelpful. What is the point of mentioning &amp;quot;Chalcedonian&amp;quot; when the French Church is clearly Chalcedonian. And I don't I think saying &amp;quot;outside the Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is at all accurate. When &amp;quot;the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; includes Churches and hierarchs who certainly view the Church of France as Orthodox (though irregular due to its current lack of an autocephalous sponsor) and have accepted its ordinations and communed its laity and clerics, then it is simply wrong to suggest it is outside the Orthodox Church. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 10:08, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Article protection==&lt;br /&gt;
Gentlemen, this article has been protected to stop the revert-war that has been ongoing today.  ''Mainstream Orthodox Church'' is the usual, non-controversial term here on the wiki.  This explicitly refers to the [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches]].  It is not controversial to say that a particular group is &amp;quot;not recognized by&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;out of communion with&amp;quot; the churches on that list.&lt;br /&gt;
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I've adjusted the language to what I regard as more precise and less inflammatory.  Though the &amp;quot;is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; language is true, it could at least be seen to imply a semi-papal ecclesiology (i.e., that the ancient patriarchates define what it means to be Orthodox).&lt;br /&gt;
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''Uncanonical'' is not generally a useful term here, since its definition in common usage is all over the map.  What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of ''not recognized by'' or ''out of communion with'').&lt;br /&gt;
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If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:09, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I'm apologize that I've let this go on so long. &lt;br /&gt;
::I agree with Fr. Andrew about the term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; but I'm also concerned about the phrase &amp;quot;Mainstream&amp;quot; (I know we use it in the style manual for our famous NPOV, but I think it fits better there)... If &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is too vague, &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; seems too relativist... On a previous revision of the article I had suggested &amp;quot;not recognized any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I think Fr. Andrew is right in his caution -- it is not simply the antiquity or prestige of these churches that makes them reference points. At the same time, &amp;quot;not currently recognized by nor in communion with any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is certainly written from a &amp;quot;Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias&amp;quot; which is actually fine here. I like Fr. Andrew's sentence: &amp;quot;What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of not recognized by or out of communion with&amp;quot; -- with this, there is no need for additional accusations invective, or high emotions. This is simply a question of fact. With this in mind, I'm going to change &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; back to &amp;quot;any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::If anyone has a better idea of how to work this balance out, let's talk here first. I'll watch the page to keep in the loop. Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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::: &amp;quot;Any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; has problems, too (e.g., the [[Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church]], the [[Macedonian Orthodox Church]], the [[Montenegrin Orthodox Church]], etc.).  There has to be some way to refer to what makes it onto [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches|this list]] which is both descriptive and exclusive.  I prefer ''mainstream'' (linked to the list), since even the OCists often use the term.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:33, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::...why not just say that the group isn't in communion with the Orthodox Church?  Between MCB and the fact that they're not in communion with, well, anyone, this is both accurate and brief.  And, I'm fairly certain that 'autonomous' is superfluous - an autonomous church, in external relations, still under its autocephalous mother church. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 13:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Which brings me back to the original language -- how was referring to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; inadequate? That covers all of the autocephalous and autonomous Churches. It also avoid the less than correct language about &amp;quot;not in communion.&amp;quot; A more descriptive statement would be that it exists in a state of &amp;quot;impaired communion&amp;quot; in that at least some of the other Churches recognize the ordinations of the French Church and have (officially) communed their clerics at the altar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Because Rome is an ancient patriarchate?&lt;br /&gt;
:Who officially communes them?  Recognising the orders is no guarantee - [[Alexis Toth|we recognise(d) Catholic orders]], but that doesn't mean that we're in communion. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:08, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Rome is not &amp;quot;one of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I've personally received communion from the head of one autocephalous Church and concelebrated with and received from the head of an autonomous Church, and been allowed to receive at the altar by the senior bishop of one of the ancient Orthodox patriarchates. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:22, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No.  It's an ancient patriarchate which is outside the Orthodox Church, demonstrating that age and prestige do not denote within-the-Church-or-not.&lt;br /&gt;
:One person's experience would constitute either 'original research' or 'improper sourcing' - and even so, it can be seen as a sequence of isolated cases, rather than acceptance by the Church in question. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:47, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You seem to miss the point of the original wording -- &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; excludes Rome and non-&amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; Orthodox Churches but includes the OCA, etc. I wasn't trying to &amp;quot;source&amp;quot; the article by my own experience; I merely answered your question on this talk page. However, since I have been directly involved with the hierarchs in question, I do think I am in a better position to address the question than someone who has not been. But it is also more than just my experience; when I was given permission to receive at the altar by the primate's chancellor in one jurisdiction, I was told that this was his Church's policy regarding our clergy -- policy, and not an isolated or idiosyncratic event. That same chancellor later offered to receive me into his Church and give me a parish. When the chancellor of another Church here telephoned a patriarchal bishop in Europe to ask about the status of our clergy, he was told &amp;quot;Of course they are Orthodox.&amp;quot; I have not tried to put any of this into the article; I am simply responding to the questions asked.  --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:10, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The point of the original wording (or any wording) is to communicate an idea, but what that wording communicates is that being an ancient patriarchate is the primary measure, when it's clearly not.  Even if it was, it would simply be a case of double-repetition - the aforementioned Orthodox Churches, in this MCB'd encyclopaedia, constitute the Orthodox Church.&lt;br /&gt;
:The point of asking that wasn't to give a bait-and-switch - I was actually asking about any official policies, edicts, proclamations, etc. regarding l'ECOF.  Are there any issued, who from, and what are they? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 17:32, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Not sure where Pistevo's &amp;quot;bait and switch&amp;quot; comes in, but I'm still interested in other ways to phrase this... — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Just trying to make explicit the fact that the question was not asked for disingeneous reasons... &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 03:37, February 16, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Reverts to inaccuracies about ROCOR, Czechs, Poles==&lt;br /&gt;
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Saying Christminster is the same of Mount Royal is incorrect. I have personal emails from Dom James (directing edits to the Christminster website) that explain clearly: Mount Royal still exists, and since its reception in 1962, and the election of the Prior as Abbot Augustine in 1963 - remains as Mount Royal (in Florida since 1993, where the Abbot retired in that year.) Christminster is a daughter house, founded in 1993 with Dom James as the Abbot (he was previously the Prior of Mount Royal.) I think some ROCOR clergy have also made other edits: about the Czech, and Polish Western rite - that were deleted (for which we have evidence from diocesan archives, as well as from our clergy who were there.) The Czech diocese was founded in 1898. Twenty-three years later the Serbians along with Met. Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of ROCOR consecrated St. Gorazd (Pavlik) as bishop for that diocese - which remained Western rite for a few more years. More than 'half a dozen parishes', the whole Diocese of Grodno was established with Bp Alexis consecrated as Bishop of Grodno for the received 'Polish Catholic National Church (not the same as the PNCC.) 'Dwindling' doesn't describe what happened to that body: they, like St. Gorazd, were largely arrested by the Nazis and placed in death camps. According to Fr. Michael Keiser (DME-AOCNA), there still exists one Western Rite community in the Polish Church in Poland. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==Sarum Usages==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not an expert on this topic and do not claim to be, although I have some older and also recent sources dealing with Sarum usage, and am interested in western rites generally, (as well as Eastern and Oriental rites). I also want to avoid generating any heat on the topic.  I also understand there is no definitive Sarum Usage, but a number of usages belonging to that family. So with that in mind, I have made a few changes in the body of the article just now and pray no-one is offended by them.   It appears to me the reports of 2008 that Met Hilarion of ROCOR permitted the use of Fr Adrian Keller's selections and translations of the Sarum usage, alters the general picture somewhat and the article needed minor corrections to reflect that. If any contributor can improve on what I have altered, please do so. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:42, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I added a few more changes on top of your changes. Most of the Sarum usages are essentially the same, generally qualifying only as individual local customs. On paper there is virtually no difference between them, though there are minor points of dispute between users of the rites.  In actual fact, between Holy Name Abbey's and Fr Aidan's usages (both of which ROCOR approved), the differences are primarily stylistic in terms of rendering the English. I'm not an expert, but seeing this use often and using both the Abbey's and Father Aidan's texts, there is nothing in them that is essentially disparate (and I am certain the Cascades Sarum used in Australia is also very similar), save for their translators' views on how to render individual texts. The whole question of &amp;quot;authentic&amp;quot; versus &amp;quot;inauthentic&amp;quot; Sarum was nothing more than politics, when the texts themselves really weren't that different to begin with. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:52, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
The article on Liturgy, as it is now, says &amp;quot;The majority celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow, which is an adaptation of the Communion service from the 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer[4]&amp;quot;.  I earlier questioned the date of 1928.  St Tikhon did his preparatory work in the early 1900s.  Earlier in the main article it says his work was based on the 1898 (USA) Book of Common Prayer which derived from the Scottish Book of Common Prayer, not the English BCP.  The citation given does not seem to support the 1928 date.  In addition, one of the professors at the nearby national Episcopalian seminary (Rev Dr Joseph Frary) tells me the Saint Tikhon liturgy is almost completely the same as the 1898 (USA) BCP. Perhaps another citation could be found justifying the 1928 date, or the date changed to 1898.  Thanks.  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:56, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm not against changing the date to 1898; I am not an expert on the date. But almost every source I read, including the footnote given in that essay, says &amp;quot;1928 Book of common prayer&amp;quot;. I am not against putting it at 1898. I am against taking out a date altogether until we revert to the intellectually dishonest &amp;quot;ancient Orthodox use of the English Church&amp;quot;, which has happened before, resurrecting the whole blasted fight. I have an idea for a fix.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 03:02, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Liturgy of St Tikhon was compiled by Fr Jospeh Angwin and was based on the 1928 BCP, which was the use in his parish, the Church of the Incarnation, Detroit. St Tikhon did not produce a liturgy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:04, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Was that the English 1928 BCP (which parliament rejected)? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:06, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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No, the American BCP. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:10, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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So, strictly speaking, it would be wrong to say the Liturgy of St Tikhon was approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow, but more correct to say the Holy Synod of Moscow approved the concept in principal but the rite now in use is based on the (Protestant Episcopal Church of USA) Book of Common Prayer of 1928? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:13, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That's right. Moscow gave permission to St Tikhon to produce an Orthodox version of the American BCP, but that never happened. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:16, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Could you or Joseph perhaps rewrite the article to clarify those details please?  There has been widespread confusion over this for many years now.  Thanks  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:21, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, just an fyi...  I found this article on the Wikipedia: [[w:Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)|Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)]]; I do not think I saw a reference to this non-canonical group in this article's section on congregations. Anyways, I was wondering if someone with knowledge of this would be able to clarify who this group is in a succint way and add it to the section on Congregations? Or if it even applies here...(i.e ''Old Catholic'' versus ''Western Rite''??) ?&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 01:54, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: This is one of the [[Independent Orthodox churches]] and as such isn't included in our standard articles.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 12:16, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
All images should be related to the article's main points. Thus, I deleted the image of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal,&amp;quot; which is not being celebrated anywhere within mainline Orthodoxy. (Except, perhaps, in one man's home prayers?) Fr. Alexander Turner was consequential in establishing many, many WRO congregations and seems a more representative image of Western Rite Orthodoxy (in both theory ''and'' practice). However, I kept a link to the image of the non-canonical Milan Synod's authorization of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; as a footnote, as there had been none.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 12:19, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Once again we see aggressive promoters of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; invade the board. I see in retrospect the picture labeled &amp;quot;Synod of Milan Authorisation of Sarum Missal, ed Fr Aidan Keller&amp;quot; does not actually mention the authorization of the OSRM; it's just a picture of the MS Metropolitan Evloghios stuck in the missal. (Of course, the monastery that produced the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; once had [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4012.0 a picture of the Patriarch of Antioch in its vestibule with the words &amp;quot;Our Patriarch&amp;quot; on it], as though they were Antiochian, so this picture doesn't carry much weight for me.) It would be an odd authorization, because Abp. John LoBue did NOT authorize its use in his Eastern USA archdiocese, preferring his own (superior) translation. To my knowledge, the OSRM was not used MS-wide (or widely even within the Western USA archdiocese).&lt;br /&gt;
:I should add, '''I'm not sure a missal that is not celebrated anywhere in Orthodoxy''' (with the possible exception of a spare room in one person's sister's apartment) '''is even appropriate to an article on the Western Rite and its &amp;quot;Congregations.&amp;quot;''' Since I was [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism falsely accused] of [[OrthodoxWiki:Vandalism|&amp;quot;vandalism&amp;quot;]] for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own. But frankly, Orthodox priests use all sorts of things for their private prayers; the moderators may want to consider whether one person's private prayers are material to the page at all. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:40, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;DELETED PER WILLIBRORD'S REQUEST&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fr Aidan's contribution to Western Rite Orthodoxy has been substantial, and while it is controversial to some, it shouldn't be ignored. His work is far from simply &amp;quot;celebrated in a room in his sister's house&amp;quot;, and as I can't even see the link you have put up, I see no real reason to believe this bizzare claim about the picture. It should be noted that Fr Aidan's work is occasionally consulted in the Eastern Archdiocese, and the widely popular &amp;quot;Orthodox Prayers of Old England&amp;quot; is considered an invaluable resource by many. As one who has access to both translations, I see value in both of them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is an awful shame that you have this amazing disdain for a priest of a sister church of yours that you have gone on this tangent. I find the politicizing of this article on your part totally despicable, and will continue making corrections and now adding information you deleted.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For the record there is no such thing as a &amp;quot;Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy&amp;quot;. Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts. I also found a better picture for &amp;quot;congregations&amp;quot; to use.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:46, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; 2==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Joseph, it seems your comments meet the OrthodoxWiki definition of [http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior Uncivil Behavior] in full: ''ad hominem'' name-calling, imputing motives, and attributing an emotional state/ulterior motive to others. It certainly does not promote communication.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: We have debated this before on other WR Talk pages, but I will reiterate: OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for subjective opinions but an encyclopedia containing objective facts. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The facts remain clear:&lt;br /&gt;
::a) OrthodoxWiki is an encyclopedia of objective fact, not the place to express your opinion of the &amp;quot;value&amp;quot; of various books;&lt;br /&gt;
::b) This article has a subhead about WRO &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot;;&lt;br /&gt;
::c) The &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; is not celebrated by any congregation;&lt;br /&gt;
::d) If one person is praying it privately while celebrating the Byzantine liturgy, it is not particularly relevant to the Western Rite, period. Priests pray a variety of things privately with bishops' approval. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::For some reason, supporters of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; seem intent on using the internet to equate &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; WRO with the OSRM, but OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for such advocacy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Other edits seem incorrect, as well:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;There is no no such thing as a 'Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy'.&amp;quot; Interesting; I'll have to let the hieromonks and faithful associated with Holyrood and St. Petroc know that. They all seem to think otherwise. Fr. Michael would be the first to say the St. Petroc recension of Sarum bears little resemblance to the OSRM.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts.&amp;quot; According to Hieromonk David, he celebrates the Mt. Royal Order of Mass, which is available online and is clearly not the Milan Synod text. That would be impossible, since it predates the Milan Synod texts; Mt. Royal was [http://www.westernorthodox.ca received into Orthodoxy in 1962], 35 years before the MS had any Western Rite parishes. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You state Hieromonk David uses &amp;quot;propers&amp;quot; from the Milan Synod; if true, that would be different than the Ordinary. ''If'' even that fact were true, the fact would remain that no quotation from Hieromonk David substantiates this. Can you provide one?&lt;br /&gt;
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::Whatever your opinion of Benjamin Andersen's Occidentalis blog, '''it does not does not give you the right to remove it as a source''' for this article. It was/is clearly an invaluable contribution that informed much of this entry. &lt;br /&gt;
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::You added a nice bit about Villate; I see no reason to take that out. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:37, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would ascribe nothing but malice to spreading an unsubstantiated claim of theft even after repeated attempts at correction. (http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/07/orthodox-prayers-of-old-england-buyers.html) &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You seem to assume that I myself am a partisan of the OSRM in question. I am not. Thus I did not get involved until your behavior seemed motivated by spite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You are being dishonest about Holyrood. The text is only the text of the invariable parts of the service, which are almost the same as English translations of the Tridentine anyway. ALL the moveable parts come from the Milan Synod usages. Any quote of his usage would be anecdotal. Same on your part. However, I am not against removing mention of him altogether.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
RE: the blog-- to whom was it invaluable? Not me; I am not part of the 'club'. I am simply restating a previous complaint.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Unless you can show that what I added was NOT factually correct, please, just stop.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:01, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A couple of other points--&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1) A major difference between the Milan texts and others is the inclusion of sequences and other parts of the texts that make a major difference in the size of the liturgy. Because of this, a simple Gregorian Mass and Sarum are very different. The ordinary is almost the same across the board. Thus, the liturgy itself would appear as that of a Milan Synod liturgy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2) I wasn't calling you Torquemada; I meant that again the &amp;quot;Inquisition&amp;quot; mindset was returning, and that this was an argument against using post-schism services.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:23, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Gentlemen:  Take a deep breath.  Enhance your calm.  Cease inspiring the administration to just delete every WR article and put a permanent ban on their re-creation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks!  :)  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
BTW, Mr. Andersen's weblog was indeed used as a source for the original formation of this article (I wrote it).  Whether it remains a source or not depends on the current content.  OW articles are never set in stone, so their sources can't be, either.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:16, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Perhaps as a moderator and original author you could peruse the article as it stands and verify that Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's blog remains a source? (I think it obviously does, but one read would verify it.) Joseph's argument, as far as I can tell, is that the blog should not be listed as a source because he (Joseph) has not been invited to participate in it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Otherwise, the matter is simply one of verifiable facts vs. speculation. Generally articles are ill served by replacing sourced statements with unsourced statements and matters that are off-topic.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm not sure anything I've done has shown anything other than calm, good form, and attention to fact/source. '''There is, however, a personal slander of me on this page''' (concerning my blog); as such, I should either answer it or ask that it be deleted. I think the latter would be most appropriate. Please advise.&lt;br /&gt;
 --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:13, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was not the first to make the complaint, though I noted this, this time around, for the same reason: Information which can only be gained through personal access should not be allowed. If we cannot gain access through a library nor even an archeological dig I question its value. Anything could be cited. Can you follow that logic?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As for just following 'good sound form', you realize your contributions can be tracked, right?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And as for the &amp;quot;Torquemada&amp;quot; issue, as anyone can see on recentchanges, I've been given a second warning.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:28, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I was referring to this slander: &amp;quot;I would ascribe nothing but malice to spreading an unsubstantiated claim of theft even after repeated attempts at correction. (http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/07/orthodox-prayers-of-old-england-buyers.html).&amp;quot; This is off-topic, personal, and wrong. As such, it should be deleted.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The fact that a blog is &amp;quot;closed&amp;quot; does not mean it did not serve as a source for this article. And Subdn. Benjamin Andersen has always been good about adding people who wish to see his blog, provided he doesn't feel they are acting in bad faith. As for your comparison: we cannot lay our hands on, for instance, private correspondence by historical figures, but historians can -- and they can write about what they see. That does not change the fact that the correspondence serves as a source of their biographies.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I  had not seen the second warning. Section deleted. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:38, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T18:27:24Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Liturgical Continuity */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
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::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context.  Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one).  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I think it falls under the concept of the &amp;quot;Liturgical Continuity&amp;quot; objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from &amp;quot;the Orthodox era.&amp;quot; The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Oh! Well, in that case that can be easily fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The overarching issue is that it's unnecessary: the criticism has been made succinctly. And answered.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:54, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Oh, no, I think it needs fixing. Thank you for your suggestion!--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:06, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The trouble is it is highly dubious that the Sarum Rite is &amp;quot;pre-Schism,&amp;quot; much less in any of the translations being celebrated within Orthodoxy. I suspect any Ambrosian Rite that is approved also contains elements that post-date 1054 A.D. I am not certain, off the top of my head, that the entire Ordinary of the Liturgy of St. Gregory is pre-Schism (that is, before 1054 -- although nearly all of it was/is). The general idea is best conveyed succinctly in the article already: &amp;quot;Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:20, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T18:22:22Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: Undo revision 80939 by JosephSuaiden (Talk)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite Eucharist.  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
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&lt;br /&gt;
==Overview==&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Byzantine only==&lt;br /&gt;
Some argue that there is only the Byzantine liturgical tradition can be viable within the Church.  The argument's major weakness is that it ignores the wide liturgical variety characteristic of the first millennium of the Church's history.  Many Orthodox Christians currently boast of the Church's liturgical homogeneity, claiming that, no matter where one might go in the Orthodox world, the [[liturgy]] will be familiar, even if it's in another language.  However, their first millennium counterparts would have been incapable of making such a claim&amp;amp;mdash;even if only the Eastern liturgical tradition were taken into account.  It wasn't until the 13th century that the tradition of the Great Church (i.e., [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]]) became normative for the whole of Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Divisiveness==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism is that the Western Rite is inherently divisive.  Following different liturgical traditions than their neighboring Byzantine Rite Orthodox Christians, those using the Western Rite do not share liturgical unity with them and present an unfamiliar face to the majority of Orthodox Christians.  Again, this argument is based on the relatively new notion of liturgical homogeneity.  Likewise, differences exist between the various uses of the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==An Orthodox Unia?==&lt;br /&gt;
Related to liturgical division, the question of ongoing administrative division has been raised.  The situation of Western Orthodox parishes has been compared with the status of the autonomous [[Uniate]] churches under the [[Roman Catholic Church]].  For centuries, there have been hierarchical churches in [[full communion]] with and in subjection to the Vatican, but which the Pope allows to follow Byzantine liturgical customs and rules.  The Uniates, despite usages that more closely resemble the majority of Orthodox Christians, share a common dogmatic belief with Latin Rite Catholics.  Analogously, the Western Rite Orthodox share the same faith as their Byzantine Rite Orthodox brethren.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, unlike the [[Uniates]], Western Rite Orthodox congregations are not the result of large-scale ecclesiastical political machinations and [[schism]] but rather of small-scale genuine conversion to Orthodoxy by individuals and congregations.  Also, Western Rite congregations all adhere to the same bishops as their Byzantine brethren; they do not constitute a separate church of their own, unlike the Byzantine Catholics (&amp;quot;Uniates&amp;quot;) within Roman Catholicism.  Criticism of the Western Rite based on its similarity with the Uniates has been called guilt by association&amp;amp;mdash;overplaying a superficial similarity of form.  Because the ideas are analogous, the argument goes, they must therefore both be inauthentic developments.  Yet the more firmly established criticisms of Uniatism usually have nothing to do with rite but rather with dogma, ecclesiology, and allegedly subversive missionary work.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Conversion without conversion==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism often leveled against the Western Rite is based on the mainly [[convert]] makeup of most of its parishes.  The argument states that such Christians want to be Orthodox but &amp;quot;not too Orthodox,&amp;quot; so they keep their familiar rites under a new bishop.  The unstated assumption behind this argument, however, is similar to the argument against all non-Byzantine liturgical traditions:  That  Orthodoxy includes only the Byzantine Rite, and so if one wants to be truly Orthodox, one must also be Eastern.  Again, history shows otherwise.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Additionally, this argument also fails to take into account the longstanding history of some of these parishes.  For many of them, the Western Rite with an Orthodox Christian faith (though certainly sometimes outside canonical bounds) genuinely is the faith of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.  The argument fails to address the question of substance&amp;amp;mdash;that is, it does not address whether and why the Western Rite is or is not actually Orthodox.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is an accident of history that the Western Rite is not yet firmly established again within the Orthodox Church.  That most of its adherents are converts is not germane to the question of its Orthodoxy.  One might level the same accusation at predominantly convert Byzantine Rite parishes, that they need to learn to give up everything familiar in order to become Orthodox, whether it's language, culture, or some other facet of life.  Oddly enough, some have argued precisely that, saying, for instance, that English is incapable of expressing the Orthodox faith.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lack of liturgical continuity==&lt;br /&gt;
Finally, more historically minded criticisms of the Western Rite usually center around the idea that it is untenable to try to revive a liturgical tradition which was lost centuries ago when the West fell away from the [[Orthodox Church]].  This argument essentially states that, because the Western Rite died out in the Church, and because a continuous living tradition is a necessary element of liturgical practice, the Western Rite ought to be abandoned and only developments from the Byzantine Rite ought to be pursued.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created.  After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.  Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bishop [[Jerome (Shaw) of Manhattan]] (ROCOR) also argues the little-known Liturgy of St. Peter, a [[liturgy]] identical to that of the Byzantine rite with the ancient Gregorian canon in its place, never fell out of use within Orthodoxy.  The Old Believers and others celebrated this, explicitly endorsing the validity of the Western canon.  At present, the historicity of this assertion is not universally accepted. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Further, the now fairly well-known [[Liturgy of St. James]] once fell out of use throughout most of the Church and has now been revived in many places to be celebrated on [[October 23]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ westernorthodox.blogspot.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html The Western Rite is Not &amp;quot;Reverse Uniatism&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ www.westernorthodox.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/index.html www.holy-trinity.org/modern]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], by Fr. Alexander Schmemann&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T18:22:13Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Liturgical Continuity */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context.  Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one).  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think it falls under the concept of the &amp;quot;Liturgical Continuity&amp;quot; objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from &amp;quot;the Orthodox era.&amp;quot; The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh! Well, in that case that can be easily fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The overarching issue is that it's unnecessary: the criticism has been made succinctly. And answered.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:54, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, no, I think it needs fixing. Thank you for your suggestion!--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:06, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The trouble is it is highly dubious that the Sarum Rite is &amp;quot;pre-Schism,&amp;quot; much less in any of the translations being celebrated within Orthodoxy. I suspect any Ambrosian Rite that is approved also contains elements that post-date 1054 A.D. The general idea is best conveyed succinctly in the article already: &amp;quot;Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:20, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T18:20:42Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Liturgical Continuity */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context.  Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one).  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think it falls under the concept of the &amp;quot;Liturgical Continuity&amp;quot; objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from &amp;quot;the Orthodox era.&amp;quot; The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh! Well, in that case that can be easily fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The overarching issue is that it's unnecessary: the criticism has been made succinctly. And answered.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:54, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Oh, no, I think it needs fixing. Thank you for your suggestion!--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:06, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The trouble is it is highly dubious that the Sarum Rite is &amp;quot;pre-Schism,&amp;quot; much less in any of the translations being celebrated within Orthodoxy. I suspect any Ambrosian Rite that is approved also contains elements that post-date 1054 A.D. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:20, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T18:13:38Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;*[[/Archive 1]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==New Changes==&lt;br /&gt;
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Folks, with the new receptions in ROCOR please understand that the party line vs. facts thing has to stop. Some new FACTS.&lt;br /&gt;
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1) St Hilarion press is not named after Archbishop Hilarion so there is no &amp;quot;different Archbishop Hilarion&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
2) Metropolitan Hilarion (formerly Archbishop of both Sydney and New York) are all the same guy.&lt;br /&gt;
3) He blessed Fr Aidan to use the same text as Milan's Western Archdiocese, largely Fr Aidan's own work.&lt;br /&gt;
4) He blessed Fr David (Pierce, formerly Father Cuthbert) to continue as he was, and he was using Milan's Eastern Archdiocese texts.&lt;br /&gt;
5) That makes the &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; ROCOR texts, in fact, Milan Synod usages. If you can get over jurisdictional bickering and focus on what is liturgically accurate, folks, a lot of pain will be avoided in this transition.&lt;br /&gt;
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Thank you.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:10, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Do you happen to have citations for the ROCOR receptions? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 06:31, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Physically? No, I just have public confirmations of them online.&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk Aidan was received as a hieromonk last week.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxWest/message/18669&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13045&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk David (formerly Fr Cuthbert, which makes no sense, given David was his birthname) was confirmed by Fr Steven Ritter.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13121&lt;br /&gt;
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I was not pleased with either of these confimations from my perspective, of course, but they did happen. Both were received in by chierothesia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:40, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The Archbishop Hilarion of Texas mentioned on the title page of the Sarum Missal published by St Hilarion Press is NOT the same person as Metropolitan Hilarion of New York (formerly Archbishop Hilarion of Sydney and Australia).  This is a factual point.  The Missal was not published with the authority of ROCOR. Authority for use in ROCOR, if granted, was very much later than original publication of the missal. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 09:41, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Methinks the issue here is of some ambiguous wording:  &amp;quot;In 2008, a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], was blessed to use his own translations of the pre-schism [[Sarum rite]], found in the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', by Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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:: This could be read in (at least) two ways:  1.  +Hilarion did the blessing.  2.  +Hilarion wrote the missal.  I think Joseph is reading it as #1, while Chris is reading it as #2.  Maybe y'all will want to work out some wording that's less ambiguous.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:29, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Splitting up article==&lt;br /&gt;
The article is getting huge, and y'all's good suggestions and plans would seem to make it even bigger.  Perhaps it should be transitioned into a general article with multiple sections, then each section having a &amp;quot;''Main article: [[Foo]]''&amp;quot; included at the top where [[Foo]] becomes the more detailed article on that subject.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 12:55, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Lack of liturgical continuity== &lt;br /&gt;
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Another thing this brings to mind is the note in the article on [[Daniel (Alexandrow) of Erie]] : &amp;quot;Also, simply doing his own extensive research on ancient rites came in useful during the elevation of Metropolitan Philaret in 1964. This was the first time the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia had elected a successor who was not a Metropolitan in episcopal rank, and inasmuch as the remainder bishops were of lesser rank themselves, many were unsure of the elevation in such a situation. However, thanks to the research of Bishop Daniel, who was yet a reader, the Synod of Bishops was able to essentially replicate the office of elevation of a Metropolitan as performed in 15th century Russia.&amp;quot; - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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: I'm also reminded of the restoration of the rite of [[enthronement|enthroning]] a patriarch of Moscow that was enacted when St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] was elected.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:04, November 7, 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Miscategorization of links==&lt;br /&gt;
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The letter of Patriarch Sergius I to Vladimir Lossky is not a 'criticism' of the Western Rite, but rather pro-Western Rite. - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Blogs?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Do we really want to include links to blogs as part of this encyclopedia? Blogs have nothing to do with [[NPOV]], and they often stray far afield from the purported topic. One I glanced at was recommending the writings of William F. Buckley, Jr. -- nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy! --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:31, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: If they're exclusively (or near-exclusively) topical, then linking them is fine.  If not, then no.  If the only thing that distinguishes the weblogs in question is that they're owned by WR people, then that doesn't seem enough to warrant a link.  Individual articles posted there could certainly be linked if they're substantial and contribute significantly to the topic.  There's no reason that the links couldn't be added to [[Online Orthodox Communities]], though.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:38, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: The blogs I linked were three:&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html The Western Rite section of Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog] (the section I linked) consists primarily of historical documents written by such as Fr. Alexander Turner, first Vicar-General of the Antiochian WRV -- precisely the sort of thing that should be linked to this page as a resource.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] is the blog to which our critic refers. Somehow he scrolled two screens down, skipped a photo and news story about the first Continuing Anglican bishop ever to convert to the WRV, and &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; at a sentence in the middle of a post about Western spiritual books, located above several stories concerning objections to the Western Rite and an article written by Fr. Hieromonk (Dom) James Deschene of Christminster Monastery (ROCOR, WR). Further down, he would have found patristic quotations on feast days, Byzantine practices that correlate with the Western Rite, and news about new Western Rite communities entering Oriental Orthodoxy. Our critic &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; only a one-sentence aside well down the blog, then hastened here to present it as the only content in the entire blog, which allegedly has &amp;quot;nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy!&amp;quot; How odd.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] is a source for this OrthodoxWiki webpage and is acknowledged as such. Certainly his valuable blog is on-topic.&lt;br /&gt;
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::As you can see, all are exclusively or near-exclusively topical. As such, I've added them all back to the page under &amp;quot;News and Views.&amp;quot; If the editorial team disagrees, feel free to remove them.&lt;br /&gt;
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::All three blogs are more on-topic for this OrthodoxWiki page than the listservs. This is particularly true of &amp;quot;Occidentalis,&amp;quot; which primarily discusses liturgies not currently practiced anywhere in Orthodoxy (I'm not referencing the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite&amp;quot; here but others besides that not authorized '''anywhere'''), acts as a clearinghouse for inaccurate anti-WRV rumors, and allows vagante Old Catholics to promote their own churches and titles.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Too bad my blog http://orthodox-okie.blogspot.com wasn't restore as well - it also is mostly a Western Rite Orthodox blog, though more towards the ROCOR usage (which might be why it was snubbed?) - [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 15:41, March 7, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Ari, don't imagine slights where there are none (especially during Lent, ''mon frere''). I didn't restore your blog, because occasionally you go 2-3 posts on something unrelated -- and I thought if a detractor was going to go crazy over one stray sentence, perhaps I'd better err on the side of caution. I added your blog to the [[Online Orthodox Communities]]. Feel free to add your blog to the [[Western Rite]] page, too. No offense meant to an outstanding blog. -- '''Willibrord'''&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: That was tongue in cheek. ;) No problem, I've actually thought about separating all the Western Rite Orthodox (and other Orthodox posts) to a separate blog, separate the wheat out from the tares. That might be a more appropriate link. [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 08:21, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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My remarks have been misunderstood and mischaracterized. I didn't say that the blog in question had nothing to do with Western rite Orthodoxy -- I said that the comments about William F. Buckley have nothing to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy. (BTW, I happen to like Mr. Buckley.) And although I didn't see anything outrageous on the website, I have seen other &amp;quot;Orthodox&amp;quot; blogs that do mix in a fair amount of partisan politics, and it's a road I would rather us not go down. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:52, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: With all due respect, I believe my comments were a fair reading of your words above, and your words above were not a fair reading of my blog nor even the post in question, for the reasons I pointed out. But it seems this discussion has run its course. -- '''Willibrord'''.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: As a related issue, it is perhaps best not to be involved in the promotion or lack thereof of one's own material.  Putting up a link is one thing, but if it becomes a contentious issue, it would seem best for the sake of neutrality to let others decide whether one's material is worthy of inclusion.  It's an inherent conflict of interest to do otherwise.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:05, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Some Corrections re France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted some inaccuarate information. (1) The Gallican liturgy was not a usage of the Roman rite. (2) The Gallican rite as restored by Bishop Jean Kovalevsky was almost entirely Western, drawing on various Western missals, sacramentaries, etc. Most of the borrowings from the Byzantine that form part of the ordinary today (which is a small part of the liturgy) were added c. 1960 at the direction of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. (3) Alexis van der Mensbrugghe was not a member of the French Church -- he worked with the French Church and taught at its St Denys Institute while the French Church was still a part of the Moscow Patriarchate. (4) I replaced the decription of the French Church as &amp;quot;in canonical limbo&amp;quot; with &amp;quot;isolation.&amp;quot; The use of the term &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; here is inappropriate. A good source for understanding this common misuse of the word is Fr Alexander Schmemann's article on the situation of the Church in America. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:41, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reworking ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I have substantially re-worked sections of this article in order to redress perceived (my perception) inadequacies/imbalances and to perhaps bring some sections more up to date&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted the section headed &amp;quot;criticisms&amp;quot; simply because I see no reason why we should be required to give space to the critics of Western Rite within Orthodoxy.  No one is going to take kindly to my adding a paragraph of criticism to a section of Orthodoxwiki which details the use of Chrysostoma in the diaspora, so I see no reason why we should have a criticism section here.&lt;br /&gt;
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I filled out some of the details of ROCOR's Western Rite activities and made other more minor adjustments.&lt;br /&gt;
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I will be only sporadically available over the next few weeks to defend my changes - so please don't take silence for anything other than the fact that I may not have seen a comment.&lt;br /&gt;
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Suggestion:  Do we need to include the picture of the &amp;quot;circus&amp;quot;.  This is ammunition for the critics of Western Rite - it even causes severe criticism within the ranks of Western Riters.  I see no reason for including this weapon which our detractors can and do use to disparage us.&lt;br /&gt;
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Offieriad-Mynach&lt;br /&gt;
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First of all, I am not sure why the page is closed off.  There are certain numbers of facts that are incorrect. The second largest grouping of Sarum-use parishes in the US is the Milan Synod, an Old Calendarist group.  The growth of the Synod has been a direct result of Orthodox people who have been fed up with the Vicariate's policy.  The Milan Synod's Western rite numbers are larger than that of ROCOR's.  Secondly, the Sarum use in Milan is not significantly different from that of ROCOR.  Even Fr Aidan Keller's work on the Sarum rite is not all that different; and that never was the official use of the New York Archdiocese anyway. -- Suaiden&lt;br /&gt;
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:See the rest of this talk page for why this article was protected - edit-warring, basically, mainly over the l'ECOF.  Of course, this is - as far as I can tell - quite unrelated to your points, so you may want to suggest the change on this page, where it can be incorporated into the article.  That said, I'm going to leave it to others (currently, tiredness is probably not helping my critical judgement) as to where Milan Synod fits into [[OW:MCB]]. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 12:15, April 27, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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And why is the eccleasistical status of the Synod of Milan somewhat down in the artile, while the Orthodox Church of France's was allowed to be placed in the lead section?--[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 18:15, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Not sure exactly what is being referred to...?&lt;br /&gt;
:In any event, I don't see why either should be placed in the lead section - the point of OW is for those classed under MCB (i.e. the 14/15 autocephalous churches), which neither belong to. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 23:00, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Language about the Church of France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The language I used is taken from the article on the Orthodox Church of France and was the result of one of the moderators, Fr John, resolving a dispute. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:31, February 13, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Not exactly. Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] said nothing about &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; but mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; That is broader than merely &amp;quot;the ancient patriachates.&amp;quot; L'ECOF is not in communion with any local Orthodox Church, either; hence, more precise language is needed. (This is, of course, a sanitized way of noting L'ECOF is not in communion with anyone and hence not canonical.) -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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Yes, EXACTLY. I pasted and clipped the sentence from the opening section of the article on the Church of France as Fr John approved it (and froze it). Your use of &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; is not accurate language, nor is &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox Churches&amp;quot; particularly illuminating -- recognized by whom? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 06:11, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: In some universally recognised Orthodox Churches, episcopacies are sold.  By doing this, these churches are &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot;, but are still universally &amp;quot;recognised&amp;quot; churches.  The term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is not congruent with either &amp;quot;generally recognised&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;universally recognised&amp;quot;.  In this context, &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; really is quite unhelpful. chrisg 2008 Feb 15 o2:51 EAST&lt;br /&gt;
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::Fr. John's exact wording is vastly superior to yours -- which again is inexact and misleading. By mentioning only &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates,&amp;quot; you may lead the reader to believe L'ECOF is in communion with some other autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church. You are not. Surely you don't wish to mislead anyone. Hence, clarification is needed -- probably on the L'ECOF page, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
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::&amp;quot;chrisg,&amp;quot; such character assassinations, inaccuracies, and malicious generalizations will not be useful on this site. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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The exat wording approved and frozen by Fr John in the article is &amp;quot;The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; You misrepresent what this says, since is refers not only to the ancient patriarchates, but to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Willibrord's continued attempts to edit the language adds NOTHING to the description except redundancy -- patriachates are autocephalous. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Yet Fr. John's exact wording was more precise than your continual edits. &lt;br /&gt;
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:If you intention is to communicate that L'ECOF is not in communion with any autocepahlous ''or'' autonomous Orthodox Church, surely you don't object to this being spelled out explicitly. There are those, like myself, who may not understand the nuance of your wording, which implies a different reality. After all, an The Orthodox Church of France is not currently recognized by nor in communion with any [http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_autocephalous_and_autonomous_churches autonomous or autocephalous church] is not necessarily a &amp;quot;patriachal&amp;quot; church, and some (the OCA) are not recognized by all &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; Yet the OCA does not recognize L'ECOF, either. Is L'ECOF in communion with some Orthodox Church, any Orthodox Church at all? If not, this wording better describes that and should not be changed to something more ambiguous. &lt;br /&gt;
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:Looks like it's time for someone to freeze this section again. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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First, it isn't my language that I'm repeating. Second, how does your edit add ANY information? Is there an Orthodox Church you have in mind that is NOT included in the phrase &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot;? Your language is less precise and less accurate. There are disputes as to what Orthodox Churches are autocephalous, for example. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:13, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: For the last time, not all &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; are patriarchal, nor are all those listed on OrthodoxWiki recognized by &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; (I'm thinking specifically of the OCA.)  &lt;br /&gt;
:As noted, Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; As you note, &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox churches&amp;quot; is not a widely used term; &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; is a more understandable substitute. Thus, my edit more closely reflects his wording and intentions than yours. It should replace yours, both here and in the L'ECOF article, and be frozen.-- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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There is no ambiguity or imprecision in the original wording. The OCA is &amp;quot;in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:24, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:There is greater precision on this language (not to mention an additional link to OrthodoxWiki). It seems your language is antiseptic and intended to introduce ambiguity about L'ECOF's actual canonical situation (namely, that it is in communion with no one). L'ECOF is not, in fact, in communion with anyone, is it? Why the roiling displeasure when this is so noted? &lt;br /&gt;
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:At any rate, this is a matter the administrators will have to settle. --[[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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It's not my language, and it's certainly not intended to introduce ambiguity. The language of &amp;quot;in communion&amp;quot; is imprecise, in that other Churches have certainly communed both lay and clerical members of the Church of France -- with the blessing of hierarchs of those Churches. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:36, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'm not sure how many times this article (and the Orthodox Church of France article) has basically been changed between one edit to the other, but I'm fairly sure it's in the double digits.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Irrespective, perhaps someone would be able to enlighten on why, in an overtly [[OW:MCB|Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias]]ed Orthodox encyclopaedia, it is not possible to say 'presently outside the Orthodox Church'?  It's not as if there is any ambiguity about the status, like there was until recently with ROCOR - this revert war has been between one set of words and the other set, when the point to communicate is that it is currently outside the Church, which can be done without needing to resort to any word above three syllables.  &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 09:42, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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First, we have had many months of peace and stability on these articles. Second, I have yet to see how changing the statement is in any way an improvement. Third, I think Pistevo's comments are unhelpful. What is the point of mentioning &amp;quot;Chalcedonian&amp;quot; when the French Church is clearly Chalcedonian. And I don't I think saying &amp;quot;outside the Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is at all accurate. When &amp;quot;the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; includes Churches and hierarchs who certainly view the Church of France as Orthodox (though irregular due to its current lack of an autocephalous sponsor) and have accepted its ordinations and communed its laity and clerics, then it is simply wrong to suggest it is outside the Orthodox Church. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 10:08, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Article protection==&lt;br /&gt;
Gentlemen, this article has been protected to stop the revert-war that has been ongoing today.  ''Mainstream Orthodox Church'' is the usual, non-controversial term here on the wiki.  This explicitly refers to the [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches]].  It is not controversial to say that a particular group is &amp;quot;not recognized by&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;out of communion with&amp;quot; the churches on that list.&lt;br /&gt;
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I've adjusted the language to what I regard as more precise and less inflammatory.  Though the &amp;quot;is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; language is true, it could at least be seen to imply a semi-papal ecclesiology (i.e., that the ancient patriarchates define what it means to be Orthodox).&lt;br /&gt;
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''Uncanonical'' is not generally a useful term here, since its definition in common usage is all over the map.  What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of ''not recognized by'' or ''out of communion with'').&lt;br /&gt;
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If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:09, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I'm apologize that I've let this go on so long. &lt;br /&gt;
::I agree with Fr. Andrew about the term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; but I'm also concerned about the phrase &amp;quot;Mainstream&amp;quot; (I know we use it in the style manual for our famous NPOV, but I think it fits better there)... If &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is too vague, &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; seems too relativist... On a previous revision of the article I had suggested &amp;quot;not recognized any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I think Fr. Andrew is right in his caution -- it is not simply the antiquity or prestige of these churches that makes them reference points. At the same time, &amp;quot;not currently recognized by nor in communion with any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is certainly written from a &amp;quot;Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias&amp;quot; which is actually fine here. I like Fr. Andrew's sentence: &amp;quot;What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of not recognized by or out of communion with&amp;quot; -- with this, there is no need for additional accusations invective, or high emotions. This is simply a question of fact. With this in mind, I'm going to change &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; back to &amp;quot;any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::If anyone has a better idea of how to work this balance out, let's talk here first. I'll watch the page to keep in the loop. Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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::: &amp;quot;Any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; has problems, too (e.g., the [[Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church]], the [[Macedonian Orthodox Church]], the [[Montenegrin Orthodox Church]], etc.).  There has to be some way to refer to what makes it onto [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches|this list]] which is both descriptive and exclusive.  I prefer ''mainstream'' (linked to the list), since even the OCists often use the term.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:33, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::...why not just say that the group isn't in communion with the Orthodox Church?  Between MCB and the fact that they're not in communion with, well, anyone, this is both accurate and brief.  And, I'm fairly certain that 'autonomous' is superfluous - an autonomous church, in external relations, still under its autocephalous mother church. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 13:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Which brings me back to the original language -- how was referring to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; inadequate? That covers all of the autocephalous and autonomous Churches. It also avoid the less than correct language about &amp;quot;not in communion.&amp;quot; A more descriptive statement would be that it exists in a state of &amp;quot;impaired communion&amp;quot; in that at least some of the other Churches recognize the ordinations of the French Church and have (officially) communed their clerics at the altar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Because Rome is an ancient patriarchate?&lt;br /&gt;
:Who officially communes them?  Recognising the orders is no guarantee - [[Alexis Toth|we recognise(d) Catholic orders]], but that doesn't mean that we're in communion. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:08, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Rome is not &amp;quot;one of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I've personally received communion from the head of one autocephalous Church and concelebrated with and received from the head of an autonomous Church, and been allowed to receive at the altar by the senior bishop of one of the ancient Orthodox patriarchates. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:22, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No.  It's an ancient patriarchate which is outside the Orthodox Church, demonstrating that age and prestige do not denote within-the-Church-or-not.&lt;br /&gt;
:One person's experience would constitute either 'original research' or 'improper sourcing' - and even so, it can be seen as a sequence of isolated cases, rather than acceptance by the Church in question. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:47, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You seem to miss the point of the original wording -- &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; excludes Rome and non-&amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; Orthodox Churches but includes the OCA, etc. I wasn't trying to &amp;quot;source&amp;quot; the article by my own experience; I merely answered your question on this talk page. However, since I have been directly involved with the hierarchs in question, I do think I am in a better position to address the question than someone who has not been. But it is also more than just my experience; when I was given permission to receive at the altar by the primate's chancellor in one jurisdiction, I was told that this was his Church's policy regarding our clergy -- policy, and not an isolated or idiosyncratic event. That same chancellor later offered to receive me into his Church and give me a parish. When the chancellor of another Church here telephoned a patriarchal bishop in Europe to ask about the status of our clergy, he was told &amp;quot;Of course they are Orthodox.&amp;quot; I have not tried to put any of this into the article; I am simply responding to the questions asked.  --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:10, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The point of the original wording (or any wording) is to communicate an idea, but what that wording communicates is that being an ancient patriarchate is the primary measure, when it's clearly not.  Even if it was, it would simply be a case of double-repetition - the aforementioned Orthodox Churches, in this MCB'd encyclopaedia, constitute the Orthodox Church.&lt;br /&gt;
:The point of asking that wasn't to give a bait-and-switch - I was actually asking about any official policies, edicts, proclamations, etc. regarding l'ECOF.  Are there any issued, who from, and what are they? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 17:32, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Not sure where Pistevo's &amp;quot;bait and switch&amp;quot; comes in, but I'm still interested in other ways to phrase this... — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Just trying to make explicit the fact that the question was not asked for disingeneous reasons... &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 03:37, February 16, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Reverts to inaccuracies about ROCOR, Czechs, Poles==&lt;br /&gt;
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Saying Christminster is the same of Mount Royal is incorrect. I have personal emails from Dom James (directing edits to the Christminster website) that explain clearly: Mount Royal still exists, and since its reception in 1962, and the election of the Prior as Abbot Augustine in 1963 - remains as Mount Royal (in Florida since 1993, where the Abbot retired in that year.) Christminster is a daughter house, founded in 1993 with Dom James as the Abbot (he was previously the Prior of Mount Royal.) I think some ROCOR clergy have also made other edits: about the Czech, and Polish Western rite - that were deleted (for which we have evidence from diocesan archives, as well as from our clergy who were there.) The Czech diocese was founded in 1898. Twenty-three years later the Serbians along with Met. Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of ROCOR consecrated St. Gorazd (Pavlik) as bishop for that diocese - which remained Western rite for a few more years. More than 'half a dozen parishes', the whole Diocese of Grodno was established with Bp Alexis consecrated as Bishop of Grodno for the received 'Polish Catholic National Church (not the same as the PNCC.) 'Dwindling' doesn't describe what happened to that body: they, like St. Gorazd, were largely arrested by the Nazis and placed in death camps. According to Fr. Michael Keiser (DME-AOCNA), there still exists one Western Rite community in the Polish Church in Poland. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==Sarum Usages==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not an expert on this topic and do not claim to be, although I have some older and also recent sources dealing with Sarum usage, and am interested in western rites generally, (as well as Eastern and Oriental rites). I also want to avoid generating any heat on the topic.  I also understand there is no definitive Sarum Usage, but a number of usages belonging to that family. So with that in mind, I have made a few changes in the body of the article just now and pray no-one is offended by them.   It appears to me the reports of 2008 that Met Hilarion of ROCOR permitted the use of Fr Adrian Keller's selections and translations of the Sarum usage, alters the general picture somewhat and the article needed minor corrections to reflect that. If any contributor can improve on what I have altered, please do so. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:42, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I added a few more changes on top of your changes. Most of the Sarum usages are essentially the same, generally qualifying only as individual local customs. On paper there is virtually no difference between them, though there are minor points of dispute between users of the rites.  In actual fact, between Holy Name Abbey's and Fr Aidan's usages (both of which ROCOR approved), the differences are primarily stylistic in terms of rendering the English. I'm not an expert, but seeing this use often and using both the Abbey's and Father Aidan's texts, there is nothing in them that is essentially disparate (and I am certain the Cascades Sarum used in Australia is also very similar), save for their translators' views on how to render individual texts. The whole question of &amp;quot;authentic&amp;quot; versus &amp;quot;inauthentic&amp;quot; Sarum was nothing more than politics, when the texts themselves really weren't that different to begin with. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:52, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
The article on Liturgy, as it is now, says &amp;quot;The majority celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow, which is an adaptation of the Communion service from the 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer[4]&amp;quot;.  I earlier questioned the date of 1928.  St Tikhon did his preparatory work in the early 1900s.  Earlier in the main article it says his work was based on the 1898 (USA) Book of Common Prayer which derived from the Scottish Book of Common Prayer, not the English BCP.  The citation given does not seem to support the 1928 date.  In addition, one of the professors at the nearby national Episcopalian seminary (Rev Dr Joseph Frary) tells me the Saint Tikhon liturgy is almost completely the same as the 1898 (USA) BCP. Perhaps another citation could be found justifying the 1928 date, or the date changed to 1898.  Thanks.  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:56, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm not against changing the date to 1898; I am not an expert on the date. But almost every source I read, including the footnote given in that essay, says &amp;quot;1928 Book of common prayer&amp;quot;. I am not against putting it at 1898. I am against taking out a date altogether until we revert to the intellectually dishonest &amp;quot;ancient Orthodox use of the English Church&amp;quot;, which has happened before, resurrecting the whole blasted fight. I have an idea for a fix.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 03:02, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Liturgy of St Tikhon was compiled by Fr Jospeh Angwin and was based on the 1928 BCP, which was the use in his parish, the Church of the Incarnation, Detroit. St Tikhon did not produce a liturgy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:04, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Was that the English 1928 BCP (which parliament rejected)? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:06, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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No, the American BCP. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:10, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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So, strictly speaking, it would be wrong to say the Liturgy of St Tikhon was approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow, but more correct to say the Holy Synod of Moscow approved the concept in principal but the rite now in use is based on the (Protestant Episcopal Church of USA) Book of Common Prayer of 1928? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:13, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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That's right. Moscow gave permission to St Tikhon to produce an Orthodox version of the American BCP, but that never happened. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:16, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Could you or Joseph perhaps rewrite the article to clarify those details please?  There has been widespread confusion over this for many years now.  Thanks  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:21, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, just an fyi...  I found this article on the Wikipedia: [[w:Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)|Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)]]; I do not think I saw a reference to this non-canonical group in this article's section on congregations. Anyways, I was wondering if someone with knowledge of this would be able to clarify who this group is in a succint way and add it to the section on Congregations? Or if it even applies here...(i.e ''Old Catholic'' versus ''Western Rite''??) ?&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 01:54, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: This is one of the [[Independent Orthodox churches]] and as such isn't included in our standard articles.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 12:16, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
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All images should be related to the article's main points. Thus, I deleted the image of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal,&amp;quot; which is not being celebrated anywhere within mainline Orthodoxy. (Except, perhaps, in one man's home prayers?) Fr. Alexander Turner was consequential in establishing many, many WRO congregations and seems a more representative image of Western Rite Orthodoxy (in both theory ''and'' practice). However, I kept a link to the image of the non-canonical Milan Synod's authorization of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; as a footnote, as there had been none.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 12:19, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Once again we see aggressive promoters of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; invade the board. I see in retrospect the picture labeled &amp;quot;Synod of Milan Authorisation of Sarum Missal, ed Fr Aidan Keller&amp;quot; does not actually mention the authorization of the OSRM; it's just a picture of the MS Metropolitan Evloghios stuck in the missal. (Of course, the monastery that produced the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; once had [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4012.0 a picture of the Patriarch of Antioch in its vestibule with the words &amp;quot;Our Patriarch&amp;quot; on it], as though they were Antiochian, so this picture doesn't carry much weight for me.) It would be an odd authorization, because Abp. John LoBue did NOT authorize its use in his Eastern USA archdiocese, preferring his own (superior) translation. To my knowledge, the OSRM was not used MS-wide (or widely even within the Western USA archdiocese).&lt;br /&gt;
:I should add, '''I'm not sure a missal that is not celebrated anywhere in Orthodoxy''' (with the possible exception of a spare room in one person's sister's apartment) '''is even appropriate to an article on the Western Rite and its &amp;quot;Congregations.&amp;quot;''' Since I was [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism falsely accused] of [[OrthodoxWiki:Vandalism|&amp;quot;vandalism&amp;quot;]] for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own. But frankly, Orthodox priests use all sorts of things for their private prayers; the moderators may want to consider whether one person's private prayers are material to the page at all. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:40, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I see Torquemada has returned, a living, breathing argument for abolishing the use of modified post-schism Western rites.&lt;br /&gt;
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Fr Aidan's contribution to Western Rite Orthodoxy has been substantial, and while it is controversial to some, it shouldn't be ignored. His work is far from simply &amp;quot;celebrated in a room in his sister's house&amp;quot;, and as I can't even see the link you have put up, I see no real reason to believe this bizzare claim about the picture. It should be noted that Fr Aidan's work is occasionally consulted in the Eastern Archdiocese, and the widely popular &amp;quot;Orthodox Prayers of Old England&amp;quot; is considered an invaluable resource by many. As one who has access to both translations, I see value in both of them.&lt;br /&gt;
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It is an awful shame that you have this amazing disdain for a priest of a sister church of yours that you have gone on this tangent. I find the politicizing of this article on your part totally despicable, and will continue making corrections and now adding information you deleted.&lt;br /&gt;
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For the record there is no such thing as a &amp;quot;Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy&amp;quot;. Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts. I also found a better picture for &amp;quot;congregations&amp;quot; to use.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:46, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Joseph, it seems your comments meet the OrthodoxWiki definition of [http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior Uncivil Behavior] in full: ''ad hominem'' name-calling, imputing motives, and attributing an emotional state/ulterior motive to others. It certainly does not promote communication.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: We have debated this before on other WR Talk pages, but I will reiterate: OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for subjective opinions but an encyclopedia containing objective facts. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The facts remain clear:&lt;br /&gt;
::a) OrthodoxWiki is an encyclopedia of objective fact, not the place to express your opinion of the &amp;quot;value&amp;quot; of various books;&lt;br /&gt;
::b) This article has a subhead about WRO &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot;;&lt;br /&gt;
::c) The &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; is not celebrated by any congregation;&lt;br /&gt;
::d) If one person is praying it privately while celebrating the Byzantine liturgy, it is not particularly relevant to the Western Rite, period. Priests pray a variety of things privately with bishops' approval. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::For some reason, supporters of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; seem intent on using the internet to equate &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; WRO with the OSRM, but OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for such advocacy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Other edits seem incorrect, as well:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;There is no no such thing as a 'Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy'.&amp;quot; Interesting; I'll have to let the hieromonks and faithful associated with Holyrood and St. Petroc know that. They all seem to think otherwise. Fr. Michael would be the first to say the St. Petroc recension of Sarum bears little resemblance to the OSRM.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts.&amp;quot; According to Hieromonk David, he celebrates the Mt. Royal Order of Mass, which is available online and is clearly not the Milan Synod text. That would be impossible, since it predates the Milan Synod texts; Mt. Royal was [http://www.westernorthodox.ca received into Orthodoxy in 1962], 35 years before the MS had any Western Rite parishes. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You state Hieromonk David uses &amp;quot;propers&amp;quot; from the Milan Synod; if true, that would be different than the Ordinary. ''If'' even that fact were true, the fact would remain that no quotation from Hieromonk David substantiates this. Can you provide one?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Whatever your opinion of Benjamin Andersen's Occidentalis blog, '''it does not does not give you the right to remove it as a source''' for this article. It was/is clearly an invaluable contribution that informed much of this entry. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You added a nice bit about Villate; I see no reason to take that out. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:37, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would ascribe nothing but malice to spreading an unsubstantiated claim of theft even after repeated attempts at correction. (http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/07/orthodox-prayers-of-old-england-buyers.html) &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You seem to assume that I myself am a partisan of the OSRM in question. I am not. Thus I did not get involved until your behavior seemed motivated by spite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You are being dishonest about Holyrood. The text is only the text of the invariable parts of the service, which are almost the same as English translations of the Tridentine anyway. ALL the moveable parts come from the Milan Synod usages. Any quote of his usage would be anecdotal. Same on your part. However, I am not against removing mention of him altogether.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
RE: the blog-- to whom was it invaluable? Not me; I am not part of the 'club'. I am simply restating a previous complaint.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Unless you can show that what I added was NOT factually correct, please, just stop.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:01, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A couple of other points--&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1) A major difference between the Milan texts and others is the inclusion of sequences and other parts of the texts that make a major difference in the size of the liturgy. Because of this, a simple Gregorian Mass and Sarum are very different. The ordinary is almost the same across the board. Thus, the liturgy itself would appear as that of a Milan Synod liturgy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2) I wasn't calling you Torquemada; I meant that again the &amp;quot;Inquisition&amp;quot; mindset was returning, and that this was an argument against using post-schism services.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:23, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Gentlemen:  Take a deep breath.  Enhance your calm.  Cease inspiring the administration to just delete every WR article and put a permanent ban on their re-creation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks!  :)  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
BTW, Mr. Andersen's weblog was indeed used as a source for the original formation of this article (I wrote it).  Whether it remains a source or not depends on the current content.  OW articles are never set in stone, so their sources can't be, either.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:16, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Perhaps as a moderator and original author you could peruse the article as it stands and verify that Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's blog remains a source? (I think it obviously does, but one read would verify it.) Joseph's argument, as far as I can tell, is that the blog should not be listed as a source because he (Joseph) has not been invited to participate in it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Otherwise, the matter is simply one of verifiable facts vs. speculation. Generally articles are ill served by replacing sourced statements with unsourced statements and matters that are off-topic.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm not sure anything I've done has shown anything other than calm, good form, and attention to fact/source. '''There is, however, a personal slander of me on this page''' (concerning my blog); as such, I should either answer it or ask that it be deleted. I think the latter would be most appropriate. Please advise.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::And I'm not so convinced a &amp;quot;mindset&amp;quot; was the &amp;quot;living, breathing example&amp;quot; denounced with the personified label &amp;quot;Torquemada.&amp;quot; Hope I'm not out of bounds to point out the obvious. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:13, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T17:54:30Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Liturgical Continuity */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context.  Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one).  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think it falls under the concept of the &amp;quot;Liturgical Continuity&amp;quot; objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from &amp;quot;the Orthodox era.&amp;quot; The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh! Well, in that case that can be easily fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The overarching issue is that it's unnecessary: the criticism has been made succinctly. And answered.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:54, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T17:24:17Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Liturgical Continuity */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context.  Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one).  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think it falls under the concept of the &amp;quot;Liturgical Continuity&amp;quot; objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from &amp;quot;the Orthodox era.&amp;quot; The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T06:37:07Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Liturgical Continuity */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T06:36:48Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Liturgical Continuity */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: &amp;quot;n contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.&amp;quot; Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, &amp;quot;the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&amp;quot; If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T06:36:45Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: Undo revision 80899 by JosephSuaiden (Talk)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite Eucharist.  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Overview==&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Byzantine only==&lt;br /&gt;
Some argue that there is only the Byzantine liturgical tradition can be viable within the Church.  The argument's major weakness is that it ignores the wide liturgical variety characteristic of the first millennium of the Church's history.  Many Orthodox Christians currently boast of the Church's liturgical homogeneity, claiming that, no matter where one might go in the Orthodox world, the [[liturgy]] will be familiar, even if it's in another language.  However, their first millennium counterparts would have been incapable of making such a claim&amp;amp;mdash;even if only the Eastern liturgical tradition were taken into account.  It wasn't until the 13th century that the tradition of the Great Church (i.e., [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]]) became normative for the whole of Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Divisiveness==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism is that the Western Rite is inherently divisive.  Following different liturgical traditions than their neighboring Byzantine Rite Orthodox Christians, those using the Western Rite do not share liturgical unity with them and present an unfamiliar face to the majority of Orthodox Christians.  Again, this argument is based on the relatively new notion of liturgical homogeneity.  Likewise, differences exist between the various uses of the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==An Orthodox Unia?==&lt;br /&gt;
Related to liturgical division, the question of ongoing administrative division has been raised.  The situation of Western Orthodox parishes has been compared with the status of the autonomous [[Uniate]] churches under the [[Roman Catholic Church]].  For centuries, there have been hierarchical churches in [[full communion]] with and in subjection to the Vatican, but which the Pope allows to follow Byzantine liturgical customs and rules.  The Uniates, despite usages that more closely resemble the majority of Orthodox Christians, share a common dogmatic belief with Latin Rite Catholics.  Analogously, the Western Rite Orthodox share the same faith as their Byzantine Rite Orthodox brethren.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, unlike the [[Uniates]], Western Rite Orthodox congregations are not the result of large-scale ecclesiastical political machinations and [[schism]] but rather of small-scale genuine conversion to Orthodoxy by individuals and congregations.  Also, Western Rite congregations all adhere to the same bishops as their Byzantine brethren; they do not constitute a separate church of their own, unlike the Byzantine Catholics (&amp;quot;Uniates&amp;quot;) within Roman Catholicism.  Criticism of the Western Rite based on its similarity with the Uniates has been called guilt by association&amp;amp;mdash;overplaying a superficial similarity of form.  Because the ideas are analogous, the argument goes, they must therefore both be inauthentic developments.  Yet the more firmly established criticisms of Uniatism usually have nothing to do with rite but rather with dogma, ecclesiology, and allegedly subversive missionary work.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Conversion without conversion==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism often leveled against the Western Rite is based on the mainly [[convert]] makeup of most of its parishes.  The argument states that such Christians want to be Orthodox but &amp;quot;not too Orthodox,&amp;quot; so they keep their familiar rites under a new bishop.  The unstated assumption behind this argument, however, is similar to the argument against all non-Byzantine liturgical traditions:  That  Orthodoxy includes only the Byzantine Rite, and so if one wants to be truly Orthodox, one must also be Eastern.  Again, history shows otherwise.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Additionally, this argument also fails to take into account the longstanding history of some of these parishes.  For many of them, the Western Rite with an Orthodox Christian faith (though certainly sometimes outside canonical bounds) genuinely is the faith of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.  The argument fails to address the question of substance&amp;amp;mdash;that is, it does not address whether and why the Western Rite is or is not actually Orthodox.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is an accident of history that the Western Rite is not yet firmly established again within the Orthodox Church.  That most of its adherents are converts is not germane to the question of its Orthodoxy.  One might level the same accusation at predominantly convert Byzantine Rite parishes, that they need to learn to give up everything familiar in order to become Orthodox, whether it's language, culture, or some other facet of life.  Oddly enough, some have argued precisely that, saying, for instance, that English is incapable of expressing the Orthodox faith.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lack of liturgical continuity==&lt;br /&gt;
Finally, more historically minded criticisms of the Western Rite usually center around the idea that it is untenable to try to revive a liturgical tradition which was lost centuries ago when the West fell away from the [[Orthodox Church]].  This argument essentially states that, because the Western Rite died out in the Church, and because a continuous living tradition is a necessary element of liturgical practice, the Western Rite ought to be abandoned and only developments from the Byzantine Rite ought to be pursued.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created.  After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.  Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bishop [[Jerome (Shaw) of Manhattan]] (ROCOR) also argues the little-known Liturgy of St. Peter, a [[liturgy]] identical to that of the Byzantine rite with the ancient Gregorian canon in its place, never fell out of use within Orthodoxy.  The Old Believers and others celebrated this, explicitly endorsing the validity of the Western canon.  At present, the historicity of this assertion is not universally accepted.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Further, the now fairly well-known [[Liturgy of St. James]] once fell out of use throughout most of the Church and has now been revived in many places to be celebrated on [[October 23]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ westernorthodox.blogspot.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html The Western Rite is Not &amp;quot;Reverse Uniatism&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ www.westernorthodox.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/index.html www.holy-trinity.org/modern]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], by Fr. Alexander Schmemann&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki_talk:Administrators</id>
		<title>OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki_talk:Administrators"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T05:42:36Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Guess What Needs Moderating Again? */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style=&amp;quot;border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
| style=&amp;quot;font-size: 100%&amp;quot; |&lt;br /&gt;
'''If you are here to appeal a warning issued by a sysop''', be sure first to read carefully over the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]] to see if you have in fact violated it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If you feel that you have not violated the policy, then you may post an appeal here to ask other sysops (not the one who issued the warning) to review the act and possibly reverse the decision.  The sysop who issued the warning may defend his doing so in the discussion, but he is not hearing the appeal.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To post an appeal, do so by clicking the '''+''' at the top of this page (next to the '''edit''' tab) and including a brief subject line, so that your appeal will have its own section for discussion.  In the main body, please describe why you feel that your behavior was not a violation of official policy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please note:  '''Whether or not someone else &amp;quot;deserves&amp;quot; to be warned or banned is irrelevant in your appeal.''' The only issue at hand is your own behavior.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As per the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]], once three sysops have examined the appeal and voted, a majority of votes either in favor or against overturning it decides the case.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks!&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgy of St. Tikhon Page Needs Moderating ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As you can see, a poster who goes by [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User:Fr_Lev &amp;quot;Fr Lev&amp;quot;] has started another [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=history &amp;quot;edit war&amp;quot;] on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon page. He has also started a long, self-contradictory explanation on its [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow Talk page], and I, probably unwisely, tried to respond to give a rationale for my edits to the moderators. This same poster waged three similar efforts against me this February 12-14 on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=history Liturgy of St. Tikhon], the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&amp;amp;action=history Liturgy of St. Gregory], and the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;action=history main Western Rite] pages (and got at least one of them locked). He throws fits anytime anyone corrects his articles, accusing them of &amp;quot;personal animus&amp;quot; (see [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Misinformation here] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#ANSWER here]) or says they are [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Precisions_for_fr_Lev &amp;quot;being silly&amp;quot;].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have '''not''' undone his latest reversion-of-a-reversion (the second in 24 hours), because Fr. Andrew [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection specifically warned] this poster the last time this happened, &amp;quot;If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned.&amp;quot; I will not restore accurate information at this time, but I've given the reasons I think it should be. I just don't want to be accused of participating in this nonsense, which is why I'm calling in &amp;quot;the adults.&amp;quot; :)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd appreciate it if accurate, non-POV edits were not constantly replaced with inaccurate, misleading statements (which seem to serve an agenda) in endless edit wars. And we'd all appreciate it if we could go on contributing here without malicious charges of personal attacks. It's wearying. I'd appreciate if one of you could step in. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:18, June 27, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: My responses are noted on your [[User talk:Willibrord|talk page]].  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Come back, directory pages! ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Crud.  I didn't know these were going away, and I was quite baffled just now when I tried to search for them and couldn't find any.&lt;br /&gt;
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It was very nice to have all the various jurisdictions on one page.  I just used the Oklahoma page myself a couple months ago when we were in Tulsa and wanted to find a nearby parish.&lt;br /&gt;
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I took a look at OrthodoxyInAmerica.org, but just in Missouri I can see that some information is out-of-date, and the &amp;quot;Please allow three to four weeks for your submission to be processed&amp;quot; on the add/modify/delete page isn't encouraging at all.  The correction form is also annoyingly long if all you want to do is correct a misspelling or change the priest's name.&lt;br /&gt;
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Even if the directory pages here get out of date, it's far easier to edit and fix them, and many of us were happy to do so.  I would like to vote that they be brought back. {{unsigned|Kyralessa}}&lt;br /&gt;
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: If you think stuff on the OIA site tends to be out of date, it was worse here!  (Especially because we were constantly having to fend off various non-SCOBA types, etc.)  In any event, perhaps this might make a good project for [[osource:Main Page|OrthodoxSource]].  It's not really appropriate for an encyclopedia.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:27, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Hmm... I agree that the content was worthwhile, and I also recognize why Fr. Andrew wants to keep it out of the &amp;quot;encyclopedia.&amp;quot; It's not really the intention of OrthodoxSource, but we could move it over there... Or put it on another site. But, like he says... someone needs to moderate it. For my part, I'm not *too* opposed to its being on here. — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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:I wholeheartedly agree with Kyralessa: I too was baffled to see that the directory pages were gone, and think that deleting them wasn't a very good idea. I personally have submitted ''numerous'' corrections to Orthodoxy in America using their interminable form (duplicate entries, misspellings, non-existent parishes, new parishes and missions, new websites and email addresses, etc.) which have never made it to the database; here, it was only a matter of going to the page and editing it. And for whatever it's worth the OW parish listings that I saw were, on the whole, more accurate than those in OIA (but of course, I did not see them all). I do understand the problem to which Fr Andrew refers above and appreciate how hard it would be to implement a solution, but it's really a shame that this very useful and easily editable resource had to go. If the pages are reinstated here or recreated elsewhere and help is needed to monitor them, I'll be more than glad to help in any way I can. --[[User:Voxstefani|Esteban]] 08:26, September 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The plus side of the directories was that they invited folks to join OrthodoxWiki just to fix the inaccurate listings that they had knowledge of.  The negative side was that it was a enormous maintenance task to keep them standardized let alone accurate. (I myself liked them just for the links to the local parish websites.)   But if we do bring them back,  we may need to put a disclaimer, on each one of them, warning that they are only  maintained by users and nothing is guaranteed. - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 16:05, September 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::If my voice counts, I'd like to speak in favor of returning USA parish directory pages to Orthodox Wiki. Like some other people here, I've been having problems with orthodoxyinamerica. Their claimed response time (three to four weeks) is simply unacceptable, but the worst thing is - some submissions don't even get processed. My parish has recently moved from one city to another, and I've just submitted a listing update to OIA, but I'm not too optimistic about them updating it soon. --[[User:Alexei Kojenov|Alexei Kojenov]] 18:17, October 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Thanks everyone for your feedback. I totally agree that a good pan-Orthodox directory of Churches is needed... I think this might not be the place... but let me see about getting something up soon :-). — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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::Actually, have you seen the Parish Directory at [http://scoba.us scoba.us]? It's slightly out of date, and could contain more information, but it's decent and has nice maps. — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Appeal of Fr. Andrew's Inequitable Treatment ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Fr. Andrew issued an official warning to me over the [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]] page. I feel his actions represent highly inequitable treatment, arbitrary standards, and partiality in implementation of the rules. He acknowledged that the statements in question were ''not'' actually offensive (I quote: &amp;quot;no one of your comments recently has been above the top&amp;quot;) but issued one anyway. However, his entire comment, [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b#Some_straightforward_facts found here], is misleading. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The warning came over the Talk page for St. Tikhon's Liturgy, the longest talk page on OrthodoxWiki and one of the most contentious. The discussion centered on an edit war a poster who goes by the ID &amp;quot;Fr Lev&amp;quot; instigated. He did the same to [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=history several] of my [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&amp;amp;action=history articles] between [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;action=history Feb. 12-14] of this year, getting at least one &amp;quot;Protected&amp;quot; as a result. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As I [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:ASDamick#The_Reason_You_Make_the_Big_Bucks explained on Fr. Andrew's discussion page], the last time this poster started an edit war [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection Fr. Andrew, acting as a moderator, wrote], &amp;quot;If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period.&amp;quot; I made an edit to the St. Tikhon's Liturgy page and saw this poster immediately revert it. I reverted this article [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=history once], and he again immediately reverted it. When I saw this poster was again determined to continually revert to a previous edit, ''I left his version up'' and alerted Fr. Andrew I was ''not'' going to engage in an edit war but would abide by a moderator's decision. Pistevo moved in and moderated that poster's objections; I think the moderator would testify I proved more than willing to cite sources and answer objections with verifiable facts. (Perusing the gargantuan archives of that Talk Page would prove that. Note: The discussions were not written chronologically, and since comments were split up, not all were signed -- making it somewhat hard to follow.) Ultimately, Pistevo agreed I had proven my point from third party sources.&lt;br /&gt;
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At essentially that point, Fr. Andrew upbraided me for allegedly not referring to third party sources on a specific point (I had cited them) and furthering an edit war (see above).&lt;br /&gt;
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He then issued a warning for allegedly refusing &amp;quot;to engage the arguments without attacking those making them.&amp;quot; I think the substantive refutation of those arguments in the 80K talk page belies that. Moreover, the argument he warned me over, which he acknowledged was not ''actually'' objectionable in any way (!), was directed at that poster's ''argument'', not at ''him''; I did (and do) find his argument repetitive, semantical, and in error. However, '''it is far from even-handed treatment''' that Fr. Andrew warned me, much less only me, for behavior he did not find objectionable and which the other poster had done much more than I could dream of. Although I am not quick to claim offense, you'll verify in the Talk Archives ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1a archives 1a] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b 1b]) that this poster has repeatedly used ''ad hominem'' attacks against me, writing that I am someone who &amp;quot;wishes to pretend&amp;quot; my edits were true and have made &amp;quot;an attempt to confuse&amp;quot; your readers about the matter ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior '''''both implying bad faith and imputing a hidden agenda''''']). In his rhetorical first-strikes, he's asserted I have made &amp;quot;false claims&amp;quot; and spread &amp;quot;misinformation&amp;quot; (try counting the number of times he used that word on that Talk page) through &amp;quot;misrepresentations&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;personal invective&amp;quot; (and then accused me of making statements I had not made). He wrote that I believe Met. PHILIP &amp;quot;is acting 'in ignorance or malice'&amp;quot; (!) My words are &amp;quot;silly&amp;quot;; &amp;quot;silly, incoherent, and demonstrably false.&amp;quot; And you'll notice [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow#Misinformation_continues who used the term Fr. Andrew referenced in his official warning as allegedly offensive, &amp;quot;puzzling,&amp;quot; first]. &lt;br /&gt;
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1. Fr. Andrew acknowledged in his message my words DID NOT go &amp;quot;over the top&amp;quot; and violate any standard. Thus, there is no ''habeas corpus'' here, if you wish. This seems to allow moderators to discipline people whenever they feel like it, reason or no reason. C.S. Lewis eloquently addressed the notion of [http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment], that we should punish others, not because they actually violate rules, but to deter them somehow. If no standard was broken, as Fr. Andrew admits, '''no punishment is in order'''.&lt;br /&gt;
2. If the mild comments he cited did violate the rules, the other poster's comments to which they responded did so far more. Yet I alone got reprimanded (and blamed for an &amp;quot;edit war&amp;quot; in return for following Fr. Andrew's instructions, as well). This implies partiality or a sliding scale of discipline. &lt;br /&gt;
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'''This is not equitable'''. I request that the moderators rescind said warning, send this poster an equal official warning, or (preferably) both. -[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:31, August 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I should add, Fr. Andrew did not follow through on his threat to ban that poster for conducting another edit war, either. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:32, August 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. Fr. Andrew is not just an admin here, but more importantly an Orthodox priest entrusted with the Holy Mysteries. Yours in Christ, --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 16:11, August 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I also fully support Fr. Andrew's actions.  I fail to see how a first warning is &amp;quot;punishment.&amp;quot;  A warning does not have to be &amp;quot;equitable.&amp;quot;  (I also fail to see how &amp;quot;(preferably) both&amp;quot; rescinding your warning while sending Fr Lev &amp;quot;an equal official warning&amp;quot; would be &amp;quot;equitable.&amp;quot;) —[[User:Magda|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;magda&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 17:29, August 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I have watched the by-play on the St Tikhon's Liturgy article. I am not knowledgeable about the liturgy and thus can't comment on it. But, I find the back and forth much like a &amp;quot;playground&amp;quot; dispute that a teacher is mediating and trying to end. As far as &amp;quot;punishments&amp;quot; a teacher can only treat the protagonists as they argue - thus the &amp;quot;punishments&amp;quot; can be &amp;quot;unequal&amp;quot;. I don't find Fr. Andrew's comments out of order as the discussion seems to be a &amp;quot;he did it - no he did it.&amp;quot; Let's be adults! Or are we getting into another &amp;quot;iota&amp;quot; argument. The 'big' one has lasted some 15 centuries. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 20:34, August 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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While I am not an administrator-- as someone who received a warning for an edit war from Father Andrew on a related topic and around the same time (which I have not formally disputed and will not because I was in the wrong), I also support Fr Andrew's moderation, as such warnings are applied not based on partisanship, but basic common sense. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:55, August 20, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
::The way I see this,  [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Appeals|the appeals policy]] is [[User:Willibrord]] has posted an appeal of a warning here,  and a panel of the first three sysops have volunteered by way of replies. It seems that they agree with the warning, so is there any thing else?  - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 15:52, August 20, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Nope.  Case closed, as per the policy.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 17:21, August 20, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::A warning to the other poster would have been an act of mercy; had Fr. Andrew followed through with his own threat, he would have banned that poster for starting another edit war.&lt;br /&gt;
::::The back-and-forth was not a playground thing but a case where I ''called in'' a moderator to forestall that poster’s edit war, confident I could prove my case with third-party documentation to a moderator’s satisfaction. And I did.&lt;br /&gt;
::::I disagree with the reasoning here: Orthodox don't believe in priestly infallibility; he acknowledged no rule had been violated; and rules by definition should apply equally. But I'll abide by your decision. &lt;br /&gt;
::::I'm not sure when Joseph Suaiden became an admin. This seems to indicate he's merely following me around the board.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:28, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: 1.  As I said in my comments, it was not any one of your remarks, but the preponderance of them together and the clear spirit which they convey, which I regarded as over the line.  That I happen to be a priest has nothing to do with it, really.  The panel of admins which volunteered to hear your appeal does, though.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: 2.  I did not feel that Fr. Lev violated the disciplinary policy since it was put in place, but you did.  (The warning was in response to posts by you ''after'' the policy was put in place.  We won't retroactively enforce it.)  In any event, whether he gets warned, banned, or whatever else.  To put it bluntly:  you're not an administrator, so you don't get to decide.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: 3.  Joseph Suaiden is not an admin, but it doesn't surprise me that he's watching this particular page.  (Of course, many editors simply watch [[Special:Recentchanges]].)  It wouldn't surprise me that any editor does so.  His comments on your receiving a warning are about as relevant as yours on Fr. Lev.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: 4.  You clearly disagree with how things are run here.  You have two options:  either work with the administration or stop editing.  The apparent (mind you, I don't know the state of your heart) hostility isn't going to get you much of anywhere.  I suggest taking a wiki-break or perhaps working on some articles which don't stir up such controversy.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:34, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::All the quotations from Fr. Lev I reproduce above, from the St. Tikhon Liturgy Talk page -- including those imputing a hidden agenda and assuming bad faith -- occurred '''after''' this policy was instituted ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy&amp;amp;action=history May 29, if I'm reading correctly]). You can verify that [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;limit=250&amp;amp;action=history here]. Unless you feel the words I quote above do not violate this policy, and my milder words do, the implementation of this policy was not even-handed.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Miscommunication often comes from divining a &amp;quot;clear spirit&amp;quot; rather than reading someone's words themselves. Anyway, my disagreement was on your particular handling of this situation, and I agreed to abide by the decision here. And I've already moved on. But I do not feel this was equitable implementation. If you were under the impression his words were before the policy was implemented, you were mistaken.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:24, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== The problem moves to the Liturgy of St Gregory page ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Since the Liturgy of St Tikhon page is locked and Willibrord has lost his appeal of the warning, he has now moved on to the Liturgy of St Gregory page and removed the reference to the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', even though the entry as it stood said most AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal''. But since (1) some AWRV parishes do use the SASB; (2) the SASB is published by the Antiochian Archdiocese; and (3) the SASB contains a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP identifying the contents of the SASB as authorized liturgies for the Archdiocese, Willibrord's edit seems to be another attempt to edit the article not according to the facts but according to his personal preference of service book. I will refrain from changing the edit; however, I do think that in a straightforward case like this, such editing amounts to propaganda and should not be permitted. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:29, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:Nope, Pistevo has ruled the OM/SASB issue is settled in favor of the SASB. Thus, this correct information was posted elsewhere in place of inaccurate information. If there's a problem, it's a refusal to abide by her ruling. &lt;br /&gt;
:I am most tired of these polemical attacks on everything I write. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:03, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Just for reference, [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]] is male.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:37, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::What's the emoticon for &amp;quot;I'm so embarrassed&amp;quot;? Like I was I saying above, assumptions.... --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:26, August 22, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::If memory serves, :-$ - and for what it's worth, you're the second person on here to assume that...are people trying to tell me something? :P &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 02:03, August 23, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::It's your gentle Christian manner. :-) A thousand pardons (asked with crimson face). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 13:54, August 23, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Moderation needed on Liturgy of St Gregory page ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Willibrord has again changed the Liturgy of St Gregory page, this time making the flase claim that the ''Orthodox Missa''l contains the &amp;quot;only&amp;quot; authorized text of the liturgy. The SASB, published a year '''after''' the ''Orthodox Missal'', was published by the Antiochian Archdiocese with a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP referring to it as &amp;quot;authorized&amp;quot; liturgies. The SASB is used by at least some AWRV parishes. To claim that the OM is the &amp;quot;only&amp;quot; authorized text betrays an interest in promoting something other than the facts. This matter is not settled. Neither Pistevo nor a subdeacon's thesis trumps the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese. IS Willibrod claiming that the SASB was not published by the Antiochian Archdioces? Is he claiming that the letter from Metropolitan PHILIP is a forgery, or that the Metropolitan doesn't have the authority to make such an authorization? Is he claiming that the AWRV parishes that use the SASB are using &amp;quot;unauthorized&amp;quot; liturgies in defiance of the Metropolitan? These are not matters of opinion; these are simple, straightforward, matters of fact. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:15, August 24, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:As noted above, Pistevo (he of the male sex!) has settled the question of OM vs. SASB authorization on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=1 Liturgy of St. Tikhon Talk page]. This is a straightforward matter of fact. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:07, August 24, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Guess What Needs Moderating Again? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Yep, it's the [[Western Rite]] page. The &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; PR squad seems intent on raiding the board. Take a look. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:42, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T05:37:50Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;*[[/Archive 1]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==New Changes==&lt;br /&gt;
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Folks, with the new receptions in ROCOR please understand that the party line vs. facts thing has to stop. Some new FACTS.&lt;br /&gt;
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1) St Hilarion press is not named after Archbishop Hilarion so there is no &amp;quot;different Archbishop Hilarion&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
2) Metropolitan Hilarion (formerly Archbishop of both Sydney and New York) are all the same guy.&lt;br /&gt;
3) He blessed Fr Aidan to use the same text as Milan's Western Archdiocese, largely Fr Aidan's own work.&lt;br /&gt;
4) He blessed Fr David (Pierce, formerly Father Cuthbert) to continue as he was, and he was using Milan's Eastern Archdiocese texts.&lt;br /&gt;
5) That makes the &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; ROCOR texts, in fact, Milan Synod usages. If you can get over jurisdictional bickering and focus on what is liturgically accurate, folks, a lot of pain will be avoided in this transition.&lt;br /&gt;
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Thank you.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:10, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Do you happen to have citations for the ROCOR receptions? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 06:31, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Physically? No, I just have public confirmations of them online.&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk Aidan was received as a hieromonk last week.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxWest/message/18669&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13045&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk David (formerly Fr Cuthbert, which makes no sense, given David was his birthname) was confirmed by Fr Steven Ritter.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13121&lt;br /&gt;
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I was not pleased with either of these confimations from my perspective, of course, but they did happen. Both were received in by chierothesia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:40, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The Archbishop Hilarion of Texas mentioned on the title page of the Sarum Missal published by St Hilarion Press is NOT the same person as Metropolitan Hilarion of New York (formerly Archbishop Hilarion of Sydney and Australia).  This is a factual point.  The Missal was not published with the authority of ROCOR. Authority for use in ROCOR, if granted, was very much later than original publication of the missal. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 09:41, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Methinks the issue here is of some ambiguous wording:  &amp;quot;In 2008, a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], was blessed to use his own translations of the pre-schism [[Sarum rite]], found in the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', by Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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:: This could be read in (at least) two ways:  1.  +Hilarion did the blessing.  2.  +Hilarion wrote the missal.  I think Joseph is reading it as #1, while Chris is reading it as #2.  Maybe y'all will want to work out some wording that's less ambiguous.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:29, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Splitting up article==&lt;br /&gt;
The article is getting huge, and y'all's good suggestions and plans would seem to make it even bigger.  Perhaps it should be transitioned into a general article with multiple sections, then each section having a &amp;quot;''Main article: [[Foo]]''&amp;quot; included at the top where [[Foo]] becomes the more detailed article on that subject.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 12:55, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Lack of liturgical continuity== &lt;br /&gt;
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Another thing this brings to mind is the note in the article on [[Daniel (Alexandrow) of Erie]] : &amp;quot;Also, simply doing his own extensive research on ancient rites came in useful during the elevation of Metropolitan Philaret in 1964. This was the first time the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia had elected a successor who was not a Metropolitan in episcopal rank, and inasmuch as the remainder bishops were of lesser rank themselves, many were unsure of the elevation in such a situation. However, thanks to the research of Bishop Daniel, who was yet a reader, the Synod of Bishops was able to essentially replicate the office of elevation of a Metropolitan as performed in 15th century Russia.&amp;quot; - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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: I'm also reminded of the restoration of the rite of [[enthronement|enthroning]] a patriarch of Moscow that was enacted when St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] was elected.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:04, November 7, 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Miscategorization of links==&lt;br /&gt;
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The letter of Patriarch Sergius I to Vladimir Lossky is not a 'criticism' of the Western Rite, but rather pro-Western Rite. - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Blogs?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Do we really want to include links to blogs as part of this encyclopedia? Blogs have nothing to do with [[NPOV]], and they often stray far afield from the purported topic. One I glanced at was recommending the writings of William F. Buckley, Jr. -- nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy! --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:31, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: If they're exclusively (or near-exclusively) topical, then linking them is fine.  If not, then no.  If the only thing that distinguishes the weblogs in question is that they're owned by WR people, then that doesn't seem enough to warrant a link.  Individual articles posted there could certainly be linked if they're substantial and contribute significantly to the topic.  There's no reason that the links couldn't be added to [[Online Orthodox Communities]], though.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:38, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: The blogs I linked were three:&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html The Western Rite section of Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog] (the section I linked) consists primarily of historical documents written by such as Fr. Alexander Turner, first Vicar-General of the Antiochian WRV -- precisely the sort of thing that should be linked to this page as a resource.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] is the blog to which our critic refers. Somehow he scrolled two screens down, skipped a photo and news story about the first Continuing Anglican bishop ever to convert to the WRV, and &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; at a sentence in the middle of a post about Western spiritual books, located above several stories concerning objections to the Western Rite and an article written by Fr. Hieromonk (Dom) James Deschene of Christminster Monastery (ROCOR, WR). Further down, he would have found patristic quotations on feast days, Byzantine practices that correlate with the Western Rite, and news about new Western Rite communities entering Oriental Orthodoxy. Our critic &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; only a one-sentence aside well down the blog, then hastened here to present it as the only content in the entire blog, which allegedly has &amp;quot;nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy!&amp;quot; How odd.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] is a source for this OrthodoxWiki webpage and is acknowledged as such. Certainly his valuable blog is on-topic.&lt;br /&gt;
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::As you can see, all are exclusively or near-exclusively topical. As such, I've added them all back to the page under &amp;quot;News and Views.&amp;quot; If the editorial team disagrees, feel free to remove them.&lt;br /&gt;
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::All three blogs are more on-topic for this OrthodoxWiki page than the listservs. This is particularly true of &amp;quot;Occidentalis,&amp;quot; which primarily discusses liturgies not currently practiced anywhere in Orthodoxy (I'm not referencing the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite&amp;quot; here but others besides that not authorized '''anywhere'''), acts as a clearinghouse for inaccurate anti-WRV rumors, and allows vagante Old Catholics to promote their own churches and titles.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Too bad my blog http://orthodox-okie.blogspot.com wasn't restore as well - it also is mostly a Western Rite Orthodox blog, though more towards the ROCOR usage (which might be why it was snubbed?) - [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 15:41, March 7, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Ari, don't imagine slights where there are none (especially during Lent, ''mon frere''). I didn't restore your blog, because occasionally you go 2-3 posts on something unrelated -- and I thought if a detractor was going to go crazy over one stray sentence, perhaps I'd better err on the side of caution. I added your blog to the [[Online Orthodox Communities]]. Feel free to add your blog to the [[Western Rite]] page, too. No offense meant to an outstanding blog. -- '''Willibrord'''&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: That was tongue in cheek. ;) No problem, I've actually thought about separating all the Western Rite Orthodox (and other Orthodox posts) to a separate blog, separate the wheat out from the tares. That might be a more appropriate link. [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 08:21, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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My remarks have been misunderstood and mischaracterized. I didn't say that the blog in question had nothing to do with Western rite Orthodoxy -- I said that the comments about William F. Buckley have nothing to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy. (BTW, I happen to like Mr. Buckley.) And although I didn't see anything outrageous on the website, I have seen other &amp;quot;Orthodox&amp;quot; blogs that do mix in a fair amount of partisan politics, and it's a road I would rather us not go down. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:52, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: With all due respect, I believe my comments were a fair reading of your words above, and your words above were not a fair reading of my blog nor even the post in question, for the reasons I pointed out. But it seems this discussion has run its course. -- '''Willibrord'''.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: As a related issue, it is perhaps best not to be involved in the promotion or lack thereof of one's own material.  Putting up a link is one thing, but if it becomes a contentious issue, it would seem best for the sake of neutrality to let others decide whether one's material is worthy of inclusion.  It's an inherent conflict of interest to do otherwise.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:05, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Some Corrections re France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted some inaccuarate information. (1) The Gallican liturgy was not a usage of the Roman rite. (2) The Gallican rite as restored by Bishop Jean Kovalevsky was almost entirely Western, drawing on various Western missals, sacramentaries, etc. Most of the borrowings from the Byzantine that form part of the ordinary today (which is a small part of the liturgy) were added c. 1960 at the direction of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. (3) Alexis van der Mensbrugghe was not a member of the French Church -- he worked with the French Church and taught at its St Denys Institute while the French Church was still a part of the Moscow Patriarchate. (4) I replaced the decription of the French Church as &amp;quot;in canonical limbo&amp;quot; with &amp;quot;isolation.&amp;quot; The use of the term &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; here is inappropriate. A good source for understanding this common misuse of the word is Fr Alexander Schmemann's article on the situation of the Church in America. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:41, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reworking ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I have substantially re-worked sections of this article in order to redress perceived (my perception) inadequacies/imbalances and to perhaps bring some sections more up to date&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted the section headed &amp;quot;criticisms&amp;quot; simply because I see no reason why we should be required to give space to the critics of Western Rite within Orthodoxy.  No one is going to take kindly to my adding a paragraph of criticism to a section of Orthodoxwiki which details the use of Chrysostoma in the diaspora, so I see no reason why we should have a criticism section here.&lt;br /&gt;
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I filled out some of the details of ROCOR's Western Rite activities and made other more minor adjustments.&lt;br /&gt;
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I will be only sporadically available over the next few weeks to defend my changes - so please don't take silence for anything other than the fact that I may not have seen a comment.&lt;br /&gt;
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Suggestion:  Do we need to include the picture of the &amp;quot;circus&amp;quot;.  This is ammunition for the critics of Western Rite - it even causes severe criticism within the ranks of Western Riters.  I see no reason for including this weapon which our detractors can and do use to disparage us.&lt;br /&gt;
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Offieriad-Mynach&lt;br /&gt;
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First of all, I am not sure why the page is closed off.  There are certain numbers of facts that are incorrect. The second largest grouping of Sarum-use parishes in the US is the Milan Synod, an Old Calendarist group.  The growth of the Synod has been a direct result of Orthodox people who have been fed up with the Vicariate's policy.  The Milan Synod's Western rite numbers are larger than that of ROCOR's.  Secondly, the Sarum use in Milan is not significantly different from that of ROCOR.  Even Fr Aidan Keller's work on the Sarum rite is not all that different; and that never was the official use of the New York Archdiocese anyway. -- Suaiden&lt;br /&gt;
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:See the rest of this talk page for why this article was protected - edit-warring, basically, mainly over the l'ECOF.  Of course, this is - as far as I can tell - quite unrelated to your points, so you may want to suggest the change on this page, where it can be incorporated into the article.  That said, I'm going to leave it to others (currently, tiredness is probably not helping my critical judgement) as to where Milan Synod fits into [[OW:MCB]]. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 12:15, April 27, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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And why is the eccleasistical status of the Synod of Milan somewhat down in the artile, while the Orthodox Church of France's was allowed to be placed in the lead section?--[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 18:15, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Not sure exactly what is being referred to...?&lt;br /&gt;
:In any event, I don't see why either should be placed in the lead section - the point of OW is for those classed under MCB (i.e. the 14/15 autocephalous churches), which neither belong to. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 23:00, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Language about the Church of France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The language I used is taken from the article on the Orthodox Church of France and was the result of one of the moderators, Fr John, resolving a dispute. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:31, February 13, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Not exactly. Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] said nothing about &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; but mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; That is broader than merely &amp;quot;the ancient patriachates.&amp;quot; L'ECOF is not in communion with any local Orthodox Church, either; hence, more precise language is needed. (This is, of course, a sanitized way of noting L'ECOF is not in communion with anyone and hence not canonical.) -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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Yes, EXACTLY. I pasted and clipped the sentence from the opening section of the article on the Church of France as Fr John approved it (and froze it). Your use of &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; is not accurate language, nor is &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox Churches&amp;quot; particularly illuminating -- recognized by whom? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 06:11, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: In some universally recognised Orthodox Churches, episcopacies are sold.  By doing this, these churches are &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot;, but are still universally &amp;quot;recognised&amp;quot; churches.  The term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is not congruent with either &amp;quot;generally recognised&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;universally recognised&amp;quot;.  In this context, &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; really is quite unhelpful. chrisg 2008 Feb 15 o2:51 EAST&lt;br /&gt;
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::Fr. John's exact wording is vastly superior to yours -- which again is inexact and misleading. By mentioning only &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates,&amp;quot; you may lead the reader to believe L'ECOF is in communion with some other autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church. You are not. Surely you don't wish to mislead anyone. Hence, clarification is needed -- probably on the L'ECOF page, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
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::&amp;quot;chrisg,&amp;quot; such character assassinations, inaccuracies, and malicious generalizations will not be useful on this site. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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The exat wording approved and frozen by Fr John in the article is &amp;quot;The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; You misrepresent what this says, since is refers not only to the ancient patriarchates, but to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Willibrord's continued attempts to edit the language adds NOTHING to the description except redundancy -- patriachates are autocephalous. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Yet Fr. John's exact wording was more precise than your continual edits. &lt;br /&gt;
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:If you intention is to communicate that L'ECOF is not in communion with any autocepahlous ''or'' autonomous Orthodox Church, surely you don't object to this being spelled out explicitly. There are those, like myself, who may not understand the nuance of your wording, which implies a different reality. After all, an The Orthodox Church of France is not currently recognized by nor in communion with any [http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_autocephalous_and_autonomous_churches autonomous or autocephalous church] is not necessarily a &amp;quot;patriachal&amp;quot; church, and some (the OCA) are not recognized by all &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; Yet the OCA does not recognize L'ECOF, either. Is L'ECOF in communion with some Orthodox Church, any Orthodox Church at all? If not, this wording better describes that and should not be changed to something more ambiguous. &lt;br /&gt;
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:Looks like it's time for someone to freeze this section again. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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First, it isn't my language that I'm repeating. Second, how does your edit add ANY information? Is there an Orthodox Church you have in mind that is NOT included in the phrase &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot;? Your language is less precise and less accurate. There are disputes as to what Orthodox Churches are autocephalous, for example. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:13, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: For the last time, not all &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; are patriarchal, nor are all those listed on OrthodoxWiki recognized by &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; (I'm thinking specifically of the OCA.)  &lt;br /&gt;
:As noted, Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; As you note, &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox churches&amp;quot; is not a widely used term; &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; is a more understandable substitute. Thus, my edit more closely reflects his wording and intentions than yours. It should replace yours, both here and in the L'ECOF article, and be frozen.-- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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There is no ambiguity or imprecision in the original wording. The OCA is &amp;quot;in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:24, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:There is greater precision on this language (not to mention an additional link to OrthodoxWiki). It seems your language is antiseptic and intended to introduce ambiguity about L'ECOF's actual canonical situation (namely, that it is in communion with no one). L'ECOF is not, in fact, in communion with anyone, is it? Why the roiling displeasure when this is so noted? &lt;br /&gt;
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:At any rate, this is a matter the administrators will have to settle. --[[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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It's not my language, and it's certainly not intended to introduce ambiguity. The language of &amp;quot;in communion&amp;quot; is imprecise, in that other Churches have certainly communed both lay and clerical members of the Church of France -- with the blessing of hierarchs of those Churches. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:36, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'm not sure how many times this article (and the Orthodox Church of France article) has basically been changed between one edit to the other, but I'm fairly sure it's in the double digits.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Irrespective, perhaps someone would be able to enlighten on why, in an overtly [[OW:MCB|Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias]]ed Orthodox encyclopaedia, it is not possible to say 'presently outside the Orthodox Church'?  It's not as if there is any ambiguity about the status, like there was until recently with ROCOR - this revert war has been between one set of words and the other set, when the point to communicate is that it is currently outside the Church, which can be done without needing to resort to any word above three syllables.  &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 09:42, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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First, we have had many months of peace and stability on these articles. Second, I have yet to see how changing the statement is in any way an improvement. Third, I think Pistevo's comments are unhelpful. What is the point of mentioning &amp;quot;Chalcedonian&amp;quot; when the French Church is clearly Chalcedonian. And I don't I think saying &amp;quot;outside the Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is at all accurate. When &amp;quot;the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; includes Churches and hierarchs who certainly view the Church of France as Orthodox (though irregular due to its current lack of an autocephalous sponsor) and have accepted its ordinations and communed its laity and clerics, then it is simply wrong to suggest it is outside the Orthodox Church. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 10:08, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Article protection==&lt;br /&gt;
Gentlemen, this article has been protected to stop the revert-war that has been ongoing today.  ''Mainstream Orthodox Church'' is the usual, non-controversial term here on the wiki.  This explicitly refers to the [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches]].  It is not controversial to say that a particular group is &amp;quot;not recognized by&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;out of communion with&amp;quot; the churches on that list.&lt;br /&gt;
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I've adjusted the language to what I regard as more precise and less inflammatory.  Though the &amp;quot;is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; language is true, it could at least be seen to imply a semi-papal ecclesiology (i.e., that the ancient patriarchates define what it means to be Orthodox).&lt;br /&gt;
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''Uncanonical'' is not generally a useful term here, since its definition in common usage is all over the map.  What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of ''not recognized by'' or ''out of communion with'').&lt;br /&gt;
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If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:09, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I'm apologize that I've let this go on so long. &lt;br /&gt;
::I agree with Fr. Andrew about the term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; but I'm also concerned about the phrase &amp;quot;Mainstream&amp;quot; (I know we use it in the style manual for our famous NPOV, but I think it fits better there)... If &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is too vague, &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; seems too relativist... On a previous revision of the article I had suggested &amp;quot;not recognized any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I think Fr. Andrew is right in his caution -- it is not simply the antiquity or prestige of these churches that makes them reference points. At the same time, &amp;quot;not currently recognized by nor in communion with any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is certainly written from a &amp;quot;Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias&amp;quot; which is actually fine here. I like Fr. Andrew's sentence: &amp;quot;What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of not recognized by or out of communion with&amp;quot; -- with this, there is no need for additional accusations invective, or high emotions. This is simply a question of fact. With this in mind, I'm going to change &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; back to &amp;quot;any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::If anyone has a better idea of how to work this balance out, let's talk here first. I'll watch the page to keep in the loop. Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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::: &amp;quot;Any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; has problems, too (e.g., the [[Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church]], the [[Macedonian Orthodox Church]], the [[Montenegrin Orthodox Church]], etc.).  There has to be some way to refer to what makes it onto [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches|this list]] which is both descriptive and exclusive.  I prefer ''mainstream'' (linked to the list), since even the OCists often use the term.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:33, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::...why not just say that the group isn't in communion with the Orthodox Church?  Between MCB and the fact that they're not in communion with, well, anyone, this is both accurate and brief.  And, I'm fairly certain that 'autonomous' is superfluous - an autonomous church, in external relations, still under its autocephalous mother church. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 13:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Which brings me back to the original language -- how was referring to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; inadequate? That covers all of the autocephalous and autonomous Churches. It also avoid the less than correct language about &amp;quot;not in communion.&amp;quot; A more descriptive statement would be that it exists in a state of &amp;quot;impaired communion&amp;quot; in that at least some of the other Churches recognize the ordinations of the French Church and have (officially) communed their clerics at the altar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Because Rome is an ancient patriarchate?&lt;br /&gt;
:Who officially communes them?  Recognising the orders is no guarantee - [[Alexis Toth|we recognise(d) Catholic orders]], but that doesn't mean that we're in communion. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:08, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Rome is not &amp;quot;one of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I've personally received communion from the head of one autocephalous Church and concelebrated with and received from the head of an autonomous Church, and been allowed to receive at the altar by the senior bishop of one of the ancient Orthodox patriarchates. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:22, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No.  It's an ancient patriarchate which is outside the Orthodox Church, demonstrating that age and prestige do not denote within-the-Church-or-not.&lt;br /&gt;
:One person's experience would constitute either 'original research' or 'improper sourcing' - and even so, it can be seen as a sequence of isolated cases, rather than acceptance by the Church in question. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:47, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You seem to miss the point of the original wording -- &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; excludes Rome and non-&amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; Orthodox Churches but includes the OCA, etc. I wasn't trying to &amp;quot;source&amp;quot; the article by my own experience; I merely answered your question on this talk page. However, since I have been directly involved with the hierarchs in question, I do think I am in a better position to address the question than someone who has not been. But it is also more than just my experience; when I was given permission to receive at the altar by the primate's chancellor in one jurisdiction, I was told that this was his Church's policy regarding our clergy -- policy, and not an isolated or idiosyncratic event. That same chancellor later offered to receive me into his Church and give me a parish. When the chancellor of another Church here telephoned a patriarchal bishop in Europe to ask about the status of our clergy, he was told &amp;quot;Of course they are Orthodox.&amp;quot; I have not tried to put any of this into the article; I am simply responding to the questions asked.  --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:10, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The point of the original wording (or any wording) is to communicate an idea, but what that wording communicates is that being an ancient patriarchate is the primary measure, when it's clearly not.  Even if it was, it would simply be a case of double-repetition - the aforementioned Orthodox Churches, in this MCB'd encyclopaedia, constitute the Orthodox Church.&lt;br /&gt;
:The point of asking that wasn't to give a bait-and-switch - I was actually asking about any official policies, edicts, proclamations, etc. regarding l'ECOF.  Are there any issued, who from, and what are they? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 17:32, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Not sure where Pistevo's &amp;quot;bait and switch&amp;quot; comes in, but I'm still interested in other ways to phrase this... — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Just trying to make explicit the fact that the question was not asked for disingeneous reasons... &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 03:37, February 16, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Reverts to inaccuracies about ROCOR, Czechs, Poles==&lt;br /&gt;
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Saying Christminster is the same of Mount Royal is incorrect. I have personal emails from Dom James (directing edits to the Christminster website) that explain clearly: Mount Royal still exists, and since its reception in 1962, and the election of the Prior as Abbot Augustine in 1963 - remains as Mount Royal (in Florida since 1993, where the Abbot retired in that year.) Christminster is a daughter house, founded in 1993 with Dom James as the Abbot (he was previously the Prior of Mount Royal.) I think some ROCOR clergy have also made other edits: about the Czech, and Polish Western rite - that were deleted (for which we have evidence from diocesan archives, as well as from our clergy who were there.) The Czech diocese was founded in 1898. Twenty-three years later the Serbians along with Met. Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of ROCOR consecrated St. Gorazd (Pavlik) as bishop for that diocese - which remained Western rite for a few more years. More than 'half a dozen parishes', the whole Diocese of Grodno was established with Bp Alexis consecrated as Bishop of Grodno for the received 'Polish Catholic National Church (not the same as the PNCC.) 'Dwindling' doesn't describe what happened to that body: they, like St. Gorazd, were largely arrested by the Nazis and placed in death camps. According to Fr. Michael Keiser (DME-AOCNA), there still exists one Western Rite community in the Polish Church in Poland. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==Sarum Usages==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not an expert on this topic and do not claim to be, although I have some older and also recent sources dealing with Sarum usage, and am interested in western rites generally, (as well as Eastern and Oriental rites). I also want to avoid generating any heat on the topic.  I also understand there is no definitive Sarum Usage, but a number of usages belonging to that family. So with that in mind, I have made a few changes in the body of the article just now and pray no-one is offended by them.   It appears to me the reports of 2008 that Met Hilarion of ROCOR permitted the use of Fr Adrian Keller's selections and translations of the Sarum usage, alters the general picture somewhat and the article needed minor corrections to reflect that. If any contributor can improve on what I have altered, please do so. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:42, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I added a few more changes on top of your changes. Most of the Sarum usages are essentially the same, generally qualifying only as individual local customs. On paper there is virtually no difference between them, though there are minor points of dispute between users of the rites.  In actual fact, between Holy Name Abbey's and Fr Aidan's usages (both of which ROCOR approved), the differences are primarily stylistic in terms of rendering the English. I'm not an expert, but seeing this use often and using both the Abbey's and Father Aidan's texts, there is nothing in them that is essentially disparate (and I am certain the Cascades Sarum used in Australia is also very similar), save for their translators' views on how to render individual texts. The whole question of &amp;quot;authentic&amp;quot; versus &amp;quot;inauthentic&amp;quot; Sarum was nothing more than politics, when the texts themselves really weren't that different to begin with. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:52, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
The article on Liturgy, as it is now, says &amp;quot;The majority celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow, which is an adaptation of the Communion service from the 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer[4]&amp;quot;.  I earlier questioned the date of 1928.  St Tikhon did his preparatory work in the early 1900s.  Earlier in the main article it says his work was based on the 1898 (USA) Book of Common Prayer which derived from the Scottish Book of Common Prayer, not the English BCP.  The citation given does not seem to support the 1928 date.  In addition, one of the professors at the nearby national Episcopalian seminary (Rev Dr Joseph Frary) tells me the Saint Tikhon liturgy is almost completely the same as the 1898 (USA) BCP. Perhaps another citation could be found justifying the 1928 date, or the date changed to 1898.  Thanks.  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:56, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm not against changing the date to 1898; I am not an expert on the date. But almost every source I read, including the footnote given in that essay, says &amp;quot;1928 Book of common prayer&amp;quot;. I am not against putting it at 1898. I am against taking out a date altogether until we revert to the intellectually dishonest &amp;quot;ancient Orthodox use of the English Church&amp;quot;, which has happened before, resurrecting the whole blasted fight. I have an idea for a fix.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 03:02, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Liturgy of St Tikhon was compiled by Fr Jospeh Angwin and was based on the 1928 BCP, which was the use in his parish, the Church of the Incarnation, Detroit. St Tikhon did not produce a liturgy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:04, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Was that the English 1928 BCP (which parliament rejected)? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:06, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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No, the American BCP. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:10, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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So, strictly speaking, it would be wrong to say the Liturgy of St Tikhon was approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow, but more correct to say the Holy Synod of Moscow approved the concept in principal but the rite now in use is based on the (Protestant Episcopal Church of USA) Book of Common Prayer of 1928? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:13, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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That's right. Moscow gave permission to St Tikhon to produce an Orthodox version of the American BCP, but that never happened. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:16, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Could you or Joseph perhaps rewrite the article to clarify those details please?  There has been widespread confusion over this for many years now.  Thanks  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:21, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, just an fyi...  I found this article on the Wikipedia: [[w:Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)|Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)]]; I do not think I saw a reference to this non-canonical group in this article's section on congregations. Anyways, I was wondering if someone with knowledge of this would be able to clarify who this group is in a succint way and add it to the section on Congregations? Or if it even applies here...(i.e ''Old Catholic'' versus ''Western Rite''??) ?&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 01:54, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: This is one of the [[Independent Orthodox churches]] and as such isn't included in our standard articles.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 12:16, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
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All images should be related to the article's main points. Thus, I deleted the image of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal,&amp;quot; which is not being celebrated anywhere within mainline Orthodoxy. (Except, perhaps, in one man's home prayers?) Fr. Alexander Turner was consequential in establishing many, many WRO congregations and seems a more representative image of Western Rite Orthodoxy (in both theory ''and'' practice). However, I kept a link to the image of the non-canonical Milan Synod's authorization of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; as a footnote, as there had been none.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 12:19, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Once again we see aggressive promoters of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; invade the board. I see in retrospect the picture labeled &amp;quot;Synod of Milan Authorisation of Sarum Missal, ed Fr Aidan Keller&amp;quot; does not actually mention the authorization of the OSRM; it's just a picture of the MS Metropolitan Evloghios stuck in the missal. (Of course, the monastery that produced the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; once had [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4012.0 a picture of the Patriarch of Antioch in its vestibule with the words &amp;quot;Our Patriarch&amp;quot; on it], as though they were Antiochian, so this picture doesn't carry much weight for me.) It would be an odd authorization, because Abp. John LoBue did NOT authorize its use in his Eastern USA archdiocese, preferring his own (superior) translation. To my knowledge, the OSRM was not used MS-wide (or widely even within the Western USA archdiocese).&lt;br /&gt;
:I should add, '''I'm not sure a missal that is not celebrated anywhere in Orthodoxy''' (with the possible exception of a spare room in one person's sister's apartment) '''is even appropriate to an article on the Western Rite and its &amp;quot;Congregations.&amp;quot;''' Since I was [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism falsely accused] of [[OrthodoxWiki:Vandalism|&amp;quot;vandalism&amp;quot;]] for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own. But frankly, Orthodox priests use all sorts of things for their private prayers; the moderators may want to consider whether one person's private prayers are material to the page at all. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:40, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I see Torquemada has returned, a living, breathing argument for abolishing the use of modified post-schism Western rites.&lt;br /&gt;
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Fr Aidan's contribution to Western Rite Orthodoxy has been substantial, and while it is controversial to some, it shouldn't be ignored. His work is far from simply &amp;quot;celebrated in a room in his sister's house&amp;quot;, and as I can't even see the link you have put up, I see no real reason to believe this bizzare claim about the picture. It should be noted that Fr Aidan's work is occasionally consulted in the Eastern Archdiocese, and the widely popular &amp;quot;Orthodox Prayers of Old England&amp;quot; is considered an invaluable resource by many. As one who has access to both translations, I see value in both of them.&lt;br /&gt;
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It is an awful shame that you have this amazing disdain for a priest of a sister church of yours that you have gone on this tangent. I find the politicizing of this article on your part totally despicable, and will continue making corrections and now adding information you deleted.&lt;br /&gt;
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For the record there is no such thing as a &amp;quot;Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy&amp;quot;. Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts. I also found a better picture for &amp;quot;congregations&amp;quot; to use.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:46, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Joseph, it seems your comments meet the OrthodoxWiki definition of [http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior Uncivil Behavior] in full: ''ad hominem'' name-calling, imputing motives, and attributing an emotional state/ulterior motive to others. It certainly does not promote communication.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: We have debated this before on other WR Talk pages, but I will reiterate: OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for subjective opinions but an encyclopedia containing objective facts. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The facts remain clear:&lt;br /&gt;
::a) OrthodoxWiki is an encyclopedia of objective fact, not the place to express your opinion of the &amp;quot;value&amp;quot; of various books;&lt;br /&gt;
::b) This article has a subhead about WRO &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot;;&lt;br /&gt;
::c) The &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; is not celebrated by any congregation;&lt;br /&gt;
::d) If one person is praying it privately while celebrating the Byzantine liturgy, it is not particularly relevant to the Western Rite, period. Priests pray a variety of things privately with bishops' approval. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::For some reason, supporters of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; seem intent on using the internet to equate &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; WRO with the OSRM, but OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for such advocacy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Other edits seem incorrect, as well:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;There is no no such thing as a 'Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy'.&amp;quot; Interesting; I'll have to let the hieromonks and faithful associated with Holyrood and St. Petroc know that. They all seem to think otherwise. Fr. Michael would be the first to say the St. Petroc recension of Sarum bears little resemblance to the OSRM.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts.&amp;quot; According to Hieromonk David, he celebrates the Mt. Royal Order of Mass, which is available online and is clearly not the Milan Synod text. That would be impossible, since it predates the Milan Synod texts; Mt. Royal was [http://www.westernorthodox.ca received into Orthodoxy in 1962], 35 years before the MS had any Western Rite parishes. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You state Hieromonk David uses &amp;quot;propers&amp;quot; from the Milan Synod; if true, that would be different than the Ordinary. ''If'' even that fact were true, the fact would remain that no quotation from Hieromonk David substantiates this. Can you provide one?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Whatever your opinion of Benjamin Andersen's Occidentalis blog, '''it does not does not give you the right to remove it as a source''' for this article. It was/is clearly an invaluable contribution that informed much of this entry. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You added a nice bit about Villate; I see no reason to take that out. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:37, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T05:34:12Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Liturgical Continuity */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Deleting Links==&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe you are confused on two counts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by &amp;quot;Juliandelphiki.&amp;quot; That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&amp;amp;diff=59197&amp;amp;oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&amp;amp;diff=59572&amp;amp;oldid=59255 added to the original &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; article] by &amp;quot;Ephremsyrianos&amp;quot; -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog. &lt;br /&gt;
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the &amp;quot;end times&amp;quot; (!). Those who have noticed it have either  [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message &amp;quot;I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels&amp;quot; (or words to that effect).  So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted.  (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.)  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liturgical Continuity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T05:32:43Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: Undo revision 80881 by JosephSuaiden (Talk)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite Eucharist.  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Overview==&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Byzantine only==&lt;br /&gt;
Some argue that there is only the Byzantine liturgical tradition can be viable within the Church.  The argument's major weakness is that it ignores the wide liturgical variety characteristic of the first millennium of the Church's history.  Many Orthodox Christians currently boast of the Church's liturgical homogeneity, claiming that, no matter where one might go in the Orthodox world, the [[liturgy]] will be familiar, even if it's in another language.  However, their first millennium counterparts would have been incapable of making such a claim&amp;amp;mdash;even if only the Eastern liturgical tradition were taken into account.  It wasn't until the 13th century that the tradition of the Great Church (i.e., [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]]) became normative for the whole of Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Divisiveness==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism is that the Western Rite is inherently divisive.  Following different liturgical traditions than their neighboring Byzantine Rite Orthodox Christians, those using the Western Rite do not share liturgical unity with them and present an unfamiliar face to the majority of Orthodox Christians.  Again, this argument is based on the relatively new notion of liturgical homogeneity.  Likewise, differences exist between the various uses of the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==An Orthodox Unia?==&lt;br /&gt;
Related to liturgical division, the question of ongoing administrative division has been raised.  The situation of Western Orthodox parishes has been compared with the status of the autonomous [[Uniate]] churches under the [[Roman Catholic Church]].  For centuries, there have been hierarchical churches in [[full communion]] with and in subjection to the Vatican, but which the Pope allows to follow Byzantine liturgical customs and rules.  The Uniates, despite usages that more closely resemble the majority of Orthodox Christians, share a common dogmatic belief with Latin Rite Catholics.  Analogously, the Western Rite Orthodox share the same faith as their Byzantine Rite Orthodox brethren.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, unlike the [[Uniates]], Western Rite Orthodox congregations are not the result of large-scale ecclesiastical political machinations and [[schism]] but rather of small-scale genuine conversion to Orthodoxy by individuals and congregations.  Also, Western Rite congregations all adhere to the same bishops as their Byzantine brethren; they do not constitute a separate church of their own, unlike the Byzantine Catholics (&amp;quot;Uniates&amp;quot;) within Roman Catholicism.  Criticism of the Western Rite based on its similarity with the Uniates has been called guilt by association&amp;amp;mdash;overplaying a superficial similarity of form.  Because the ideas are analogous, the argument goes, they must therefore both be inauthentic developments.  Yet the more firmly established criticisms of Uniatism usually have nothing to do with rite but rather with dogma, ecclesiology, and allegedly subversive missionary work.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Conversion without conversion==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism often leveled against the Western Rite is based on the mainly [[convert]] makeup of most of its parishes.  The argument states that such Christians want to be Orthodox but &amp;quot;not too Orthodox,&amp;quot; so they keep their familiar rites under a new bishop.  The unstated assumption behind this argument, however, is similar to the argument against all non-Byzantine liturgical traditions:  That  Orthodoxy includes only the Byzantine Rite, and so if one wants to be truly Orthodox, one must also be Eastern.  Again, history shows otherwise.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Additionally, this argument also fails to take into account the longstanding history of some of these parishes.  For many of them, the Western Rite with an Orthodox Christian faith (though certainly sometimes outside canonical bounds) genuinely is the faith of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.  The argument fails to address the question of substance&amp;amp;mdash;that is, it does not address whether and why the Western Rite is or is not actually Orthodox.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is an accident of history that the Western Rite is not yet firmly established again within the Orthodox Church.  That most of its adherents are converts is not germane to the question of its Orthodoxy.  One might level the same accusation at predominantly convert Byzantine Rite parishes, that they need to learn to give up everything familiar in order to become Orthodox, whether it's language, culture, or some other facet of life.  Oddly enough, some have argued precisely that, saying, for instance, that English is incapable of expressing the Orthodox faith.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lack of liturgical continuity==&lt;br /&gt;
Finally, more historically minded criticisms of the Western Rite usually center around the idea that it is untenable to try to revive a liturgical tradition which was lost centuries ago when the West fell away from the [[Orthodox Church]].  This argument essentially states that, because the Western Rite died out in the Church, and because a continuous living tradition is a necessary element of liturgical practice, the Western Rite ought to be abandoned and only developments from the Byzantine Rite ought to be pursued.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created.  After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.  Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bishop [[Jerome (Shaw) of Manhattan]] (ROCOR) also argues the little-known Liturgy of St. Peter, a [[liturgy]] identical to that of the Byzantine rite with the ancient Gregorian canon in its place, never fell out of use within Orthodoxy.  The Old Believers and others celebrated this, explicitly endorsing the validity of the Western canon.  At present, the historicity of this assertion is not universally accepted.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Further, the now fairly well-known [[Liturgy of St. James]] once fell out of use throughout most of the Church and has now been revived in many places to be celebrated on [[October 23]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ westernorthodox.blogspot.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html The Western Rite is Not &amp;quot;Reverse Uniatism&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ www.westernorthodox.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/index.html www.holy-trinity.org/modern]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], by Fr. Alexander Schmemann&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T05:26:17Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Congregations */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold the full Orthodox faith in common with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]] but celebrate Western forms of liturgy. Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  At present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the Tridentine [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics. Vilatte, however, returned to the Roman Catholic Church at the end of his life. Many independent churches now claim to be under his &amp;quot;succession&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries: one located in Canada, one in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Use]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite. Some have stated that on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion also gave a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), a blessing to use his own translation of the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR. His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western rite communities can also be found which are not, or no longer, in communion with the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]]. This recension is different from the version of the Sarum Rite used within ROCOR before 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T05:25:44Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Congregations */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold the full Orthodox faith in common with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]] but celebrate Western forms of liturgy. Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  At present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the Tridentine [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics. Vilatte, however, returned to the Roman Catholic Church at the end of his life. Many independent churches now claim to be under his &amp;quot;succession&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries: one located in Canada, one in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Use]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite. Some have stated that on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion recieved in a hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), and blessed the publication of an new edition of his seminal work, ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western rite communities can also be found which are not, or no longer, in communion with the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]]. This recension is different from the version of the Sarum Rite used within ROCOR before 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-16T05:24:25Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold the full Orthodox faith in common with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]] but celebrate Western forms of liturgy. Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  At present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the Tridentine [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics. Vilatte, however, returned to the Roman Catholic Church at the end of his life. Many independent churches now claim to be under his &amp;quot;succession&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries: one located in Canada, one in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Use]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. Hieromonk David utilizes the propers used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion recieved in a hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), and blessed the publication of an new edition of his seminal work, ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western rite communities can also be found which are not, or no longer, in communion with the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]]. This recension is different from the version of the Sarum Rite used within ROCOR before 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Conception_of_the_Theotokos</id>
		<title>Conception of the Theotokos</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Conception_of_the_Theotokos"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T22:05:43Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Conception of the [[Theotokos]]''' by Saint [[Anna]] is commemorated by the Orthodox Church on [[December 9]].  &lt;br /&gt;
St. Anna, the mother of the Virgin Mary, was the youngest daughter of the priest Nathan from Bethlehem, descended from the tribe of Levi. She married St. [[Joachim and Anna|Joachim]], who was a native of Galilee. For many years, St. Anna was childless and the couple suffered much reproach for her barrenness.  When they were in Jerusalem to offer sacrifice to God, the High Priest, Issachar, upbraided Joachim, &amp;quot;You are not worthy to offer sacrifice with those childless hands.&amp;quot;  Both spouses gave themselves to fervent prayer, and the [[Archangel Gabriel]] announced to them separately that they would be the parents of a daughter who would bring blessings to the whole human race. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Orthodox Church does not accept the teaching of the [[Immaculate Conception]], but has also always believed that the Virgin Mary was, from her conception, filled with every Grace of the Holy Spirit in view of her calling as the Mother of Christ our God. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church also celebrates other [[saint]]s who were sanctified in the womb of their mothers.  St [[John the Baptist]] is one example; St [[Nicholas of Myra|Nicholas the Wonderworker]] is another.  &lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
The feast is not exactly nine months before the feast of the [[Nativity of the Theotokos]]  ([[September 8]]) as it is in the West, but one day later. Many have taught this is to show that God alone is perfect.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Hymns==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Troparion]] (Tone 4) &lt;br /&gt;
:Today the bonds of barrenness are broken,&lt;br /&gt;
:God has heard the prayers of Joachim and Anna.&lt;br /&gt;
:He has promised them beyond all their hopes,&lt;br /&gt;
:To bear the Maiden of God&lt;br /&gt;
:By whom the Uncircumscribed One was born as mortal man,&lt;br /&gt;
:Who commanded an angel to cry to Her:&lt;br /&gt;
:Rejoice, O Full of Grace, the Lord is with You!&lt;br /&gt;
[[Kontakion]] (Tone 4) &lt;br /&gt;
:Today the universe rejoices,&lt;br /&gt;
:For Anna has conceived the Theotokos through God's dispensation,&lt;br /&gt;
:For she has brought forth the One who is to bear the Ineffable Word! &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources and External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&amp;amp;ID=1&amp;amp;FSID=103506 Conception of the Theotokos] (OCA.org)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Immaculate Conception]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Feasts]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Conception_of_the_Theotokos</id>
		<title>Conception of the Theotokos</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Conception_of_the_Theotokos"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T22:04:34Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Conception of the [[Theotokos]]''' by Saint [[Anna]] is commemorated by the Orthodox Church on [[December 9]].  &lt;br /&gt;
St. Anna, the mother of the Virgin Mary, was the youngest daughter of the priest Nathan from Bethlehem, descended from the tribe of Levi. She married St. [[Joachim and Anna|Joachim]], who was a native of Galilee. For many years, St. Anna was childless and the couple suffered much reproach for her barrenness.  When they were in Jerusalem to offer sacrifice to God, the High Priest, Issachar, upbraided Joachim, &amp;quot;You are not worthy to offer sacrifice with those childless hands.&amp;quot;  Both spouses gave themselves to fervent prayer, and the [[Archangel Gabriel]] announced to them separately that they would be the parents of a daughter who would bring blessings to the whole human race. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Orthodox Church does not accept the teaching of the [[Immaculate Conception]], but has also always believed that the Virgin Mary was, from her conception, filled with every Grace of the Holy Spirit in view of her calling as the Mother of Christ our God. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church also celebrates other [[saint]]s who were sanctified in the womb of their mothers.  St [[John the Baptist]] is one example; St [[Nicholas of Myra|Nicholas the Wonderworker]] is another.  &lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
The feast is not exactly nine months before the feast of the [[Nativity of the Theotokos]]  ( [[September 8]]) as it is in the West, but one day later. Many have taught this is to show that God alone is perfect.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Hymns==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Troparion]] (Tone 4) &lt;br /&gt;
:Today the bonds of barrenness are broken,&lt;br /&gt;
:God has heard the prayers of Joachim and Anna.&lt;br /&gt;
:He has promised them beyond all their hopes,&lt;br /&gt;
:To bear the Maiden of God&lt;br /&gt;
:By whom the Uncircumscribed One was born as mortal man,&lt;br /&gt;
:Who commanded an angel to cry to Her:&lt;br /&gt;
:Rejoice, O Full of Grace, the Lord is with You!&lt;br /&gt;
[[Kontakion]] (Tone 4) &lt;br /&gt;
:Today the universe rejoices,&lt;br /&gt;
:For Anna has conceived the Theotokos through God's dispensation,&lt;br /&gt;
:For she has brought forth the One who is to bear the Ineffable Word! &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources and External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&amp;amp;ID=1&amp;amp;FSID=103506 Conception of the Theotokos] (OCA.org)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Immaculate Conception]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Feasts]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord</id>
		<title>User talk:Willibrord</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T21:46:48Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Vandalism */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Welcome}}&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Magda|magda]] 18:11, 22 Apr 2005 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Response ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If I get the time sometime soon, I will try to look over what you referred to in some detail.  However, it may be a while, since my parish is hosting our diocesan conference this week.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In any event, my unofficial warning to you was not due to your having responded, but due to the manner of your response.  You often indulged in pretty negative characterization of your interlocutor rather than dealing exclusively with the question of improving the article.  That's inappropriate on OrthodoxWiki.  As I have to Fr. Lev in email, I encourage you to ignore any comments directed at your person and focus only on content issues.  If you don't, then you'll receive an [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy|official warning]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have protected the article in question for the time being.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:46, June 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: BTW, just as an expansion of the above:  It is not the sysop's job to check others' original research but to enforce the rules.  Since the article in question has clearly become the subject of controversy, it will need to be thoroughly sourced from citable, reliable, third-party publications.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:10, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{warning}}  See my comments [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk%3ALiturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;diff=74104&amp;amp;oldid=74102 here].  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 12:23, August 7, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Just FYI==&lt;br /&gt;
Your [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Bede&amp;amp;diff=prev&amp;amp;oldid=5222 first Talk page edit] on OrthodoxWiki included your name.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As to the rest that you posted on [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], as noted above, you are welcome to appeal the warning at [[OrthodoxWiki Talk:Administrators|the proper place]].  I looked over the contributions of your interlocutor since the Disciplinary Policy was put in place, and I did not feel that they warranted a warning.  Perhaps another editor or group thereof will feel differently.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 02:36, August 9, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note: Since you have identified yourself here, you may wish to consolidate your user ID's as I did due to having forgotten my account info. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:40, August 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sincere apologies. I thought you were creating a user ID. Apparently a fan of yours called &amp;quot;Theocacna&amp;quot; created a page in your honor. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:45, August 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It's been deleted.  I am sure that we'd all agree that none of us here warrant having our own encyclopedia entry.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 22:23, August 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I for one would be terrified if I had one. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:34, August 12, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Vandalism==&lt;br /&gt;
Edit warring is vandalism.  Please do not vandalise the '''Congregations and usages''' section of the '''Western Rite''' article again. The talk page is for discussion about disputatious edits. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 12:27, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:It appears you are unfamiliar with the definition of [[OrthodoxWiki:Vandalism|vandalism]] accepted by us on Orthodoxwiki. It certainly does not include adding a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner to a page about the Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
:As for edit wars: I had already left a note on the WR Talk page before you simply reverted your own edits (&amp;quot;edit warring&amp;quot;). You can verify that by looking at today's [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Special:Recentchanges &amp;quot;recent changes&amp;quot; page]. You are free to comment there to argue for your changes to the moderators, rather than revert. In the worst case scenario, the moderators are very good about intervening; the archives of the Talk page will show several long, meandering disputes which the moderators resolved  in an equitable fashion. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:44, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord</id>
		<title>User talk:Willibrord</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T21:45:21Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Vandalism */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Welcome}}&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Magda|magda]] 18:11, 22 Apr 2005 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Response ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If I get the time sometime soon, I will try to look over what you referred to in some detail.  However, it may be a while, since my parish is hosting our diocesan conference this week.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In any event, my unofficial warning to you was not due to your having responded, but due to the manner of your response.  You often indulged in pretty negative characterization of your interlocutor rather than dealing exclusively with the question of improving the article.  That's inappropriate on OrthodoxWiki.  As I have to Fr. Lev in email, I encourage you to ignore any comments directed at your person and focus only on content issues.  If you don't, then you'll receive an [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy|official warning]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have protected the article in question for the time being.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:46, June 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: BTW, just as an expansion of the above:  It is not the sysop's job to check others' original research but to enforce the rules.  Since the article in question has clearly become the subject of controversy, it will need to be thoroughly sourced from citable, reliable, third-party publications.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:10, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{warning}}  See my comments [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk%3ALiturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;diff=74104&amp;amp;oldid=74102 here].  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 12:23, August 7, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Just FYI==&lt;br /&gt;
Your [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Bede&amp;amp;diff=prev&amp;amp;oldid=5222 first Talk page edit] on OrthodoxWiki included your name.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As to the rest that you posted on [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], as noted above, you are welcome to appeal the warning at [[OrthodoxWiki Talk:Administrators|the proper place]].  I looked over the contributions of your interlocutor since the Disciplinary Policy was put in place, and I did not feel that they warranted a warning.  Perhaps another editor or group thereof will feel differently.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 02:36, August 9, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note: Since you have identified yourself here, you may wish to consolidate your user ID's as I did due to having forgotten my account info. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:40, August 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sincere apologies. I thought you were creating a user ID. Apparently a fan of yours called &amp;quot;Theocacna&amp;quot; created a page in your honor. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:45, August 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It's been deleted.  I am sure that we'd all agree that none of us here warrant having our own encyclopedia entry.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 22:23, August 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I for one would be terrified if I had one. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:34, August 12, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Vandalism==&lt;br /&gt;
Edit warring is vandalism.  Please do not vandalise the '''Congregations and usages''' section of the '''Western Rite''' article again. The talk page is for discussion about disputatious edits. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 12:27, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:It appears you are unfamiliar with the definition of [[OrthodoxWiki:Vandalism|vandalism]] accepted by us on Orthodoxwiki. It certainly does not include adding a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner to a page about the Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
:As for edit wars: I had already left a note on the WR Talk page before you simply reverted your own edits (&amp;quot;edit warring&amp;quot;). You can verify that by looking at today's [[Special:Recentchanges &amp;quot;recent changes&amp;quot; page]]. You are free to comment there to argue for your changes to the moderators, rather than revert. In the worst case scenario, the moderators are very good about intervening; the archives of the Talk page will show several long, meandering disputes which the moderators resolved  in an equitable fashion. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:44, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord</id>
		<title>User talk:Willibrord</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T21:44:52Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Vandalism */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Welcome}}&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Magda|magda]] 18:11, 22 Apr 2005 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Response ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If I get the time sometime soon, I will try to look over what you referred to in some detail.  However, it may be a while, since my parish is hosting our diocesan conference this week.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In any event, my unofficial warning to you was not due to your having responded, but due to the manner of your response.  You often indulged in pretty negative characterization of your interlocutor rather than dealing exclusively with the question of improving the article.  That's inappropriate on OrthodoxWiki.  As I have to Fr. Lev in email, I encourage you to ignore any comments directed at your person and focus only on content issues.  If you don't, then you'll receive an [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy|official warning]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have protected the article in question for the time being.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 15:46, June 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: BTW, just as an expansion of the above:  It is not the sysop's job to check others' original research but to enforce the rules.  Since the article in question has clearly become the subject of controversy, it will need to be thoroughly sourced from citable, reliable, third-party publications.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:10, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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{{warning}}  See my comments [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk%3ALiturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&amp;amp;diff=74104&amp;amp;oldid=74102 here].  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 12:23, August 7, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Just FYI==&lt;br /&gt;
Your [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Bede&amp;amp;diff=prev&amp;amp;oldid=5222 first Talk page edit] on OrthodoxWiki included your name.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As to the rest that you posted on [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], as noted above, you are welcome to appeal the warning at [[OrthodoxWiki Talk:Administrators|the proper place]].  I looked over the contributions of your interlocutor since the Disciplinary Policy was put in place, and I did not feel that they warranted a warning.  Perhaps another editor or group thereof will feel differently.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 02:36, August 9, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note: Since you have identified yourself here, you may wish to consolidate your user ID's as I did due to having forgotten my account info. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:40, August 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sincere apologies. I thought you were creating a user ID. Apparently a fan of yours called &amp;quot;Theocacna&amp;quot; created a page in your honor. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:45, August 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It's been deleted.  I am sure that we'd all agree that none of us here warrant having our own encyclopedia entry.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 22:23, August 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I for one would be terrified if I had one. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:34, August 12, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Vandalism==&lt;br /&gt;
Edit warring is vandalism.  Please do not vandalise the '''Congregations and usages''' section of the '''Western Rite''' article again. The talk page is for discussion about disputatious edits. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 12:27, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
:It appears you are unfamiliar with the definition of [[OrthodoxWiki:Vandalism|vandalism]] accepted by us on Orthodoxwiki. It certainly does not include adding a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner to a page about the Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
:As for edit wars: I had already left a note on the WR Talk page before you simply reverted your own edits (&amp;quot;edit warring&amp;quot;). You can verify that by looking at today's [[Special:Recentchanges&amp;quot;recent changes&amp;quot; page]]. You are free to comment there to argue for your changes to the moderators, rather than revert. In the worst case scenario, the moderators are very good about intervening; the archives of the Talk page will show several long, meandering disputes which the moderators resolved  in an equitable fashion. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:44, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T21:40:45Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;*[[/Archive 1]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
----&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==New Changes==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Folks, with the new receptions in ROCOR please understand that the party line vs. facts thing has to stop. Some new FACTS.&lt;br /&gt;
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1) St Hilarion press is not named after Archbishop Hilarion so there is no &amp;quot;different Archbishop Hilarion&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
2) Metropolitan Hilarion (formerly Archbishop of both Sydney and New York) are all the same guy.&lt;br /&gt;
3) He blessed Fr Aidan to use the same text as Milan's Western Archdiocese, largely Fr Aidan's own work.&lt;br /&gt;
4) He blessed Fr David (Pierce, formerly Father Cuthbert) to continue as he was, and he was using Milan's Eastern Archdiocese texts.&lt;br /&gt;
5) That makes the &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; ROCOR texts, in fact, Milan Synod usages. If you can get over jurisdictional bickering and focus on what is liturgically accurate, folks, a lot of pain will be avoided in this transition.&lt;br /&gt;
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Thank you.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:10, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Do you happen to have citations for the ROCOR receptions? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 06:31, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Physically? No, I just have public confirmations of them online.&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk Aidan was received as a hieromonk last week.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxWest/message/18669&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13045&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hieromonk David (formerly Fr Cuthbert, which makes no sense, given David was his birthname) was confirmed by Fr Steven Ritter.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13121&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was not pleased with either of these confimations from my perspective, of course, but they did happen. Both were received in by chierothesia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:40, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The Archbishop Hilarion of Texas mentioned on the title page of the Sarum Missal published by St Hilarion Press is NOT the same person as Metropolitan Hilarion of New York (formerly Archbishop Hilarion of Sydney and Australia).  This is a factual point.  The Missal was not published with the authority of ROCOR. Authority for use in ROCOR, if granted, was very much later than original publication of the missal. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 09:41, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Methinks the issue here is of some ambiguous wording:  &amp;quot;In 2008, a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], was blessed to use his own translations of the pre-schism [[Sarum rite]], found in the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', by Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: This could be read in (at least) two ways:  1.  +Hilarion did the blessing.  2.  +Hilarion wrote the missal.  I think Joseph is reading it as #1, while Chris is reading it as #2.  Maybe y'all will want to work out some wording that's less ambiguous.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:29, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Splitting up article==&lt;br /&gt;
The article is getting huge, and y'all's good suggestions and plans would seem to make it even bigger.  Perhaps it should be transitioned into a general article with multiple sections, then each section having a &amp;quot;''Main article: [[Foo]]''&amp;quot; included at the top where [[Foo]] becomes the more detailed article on that subject.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 12:55, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lack of liturgical continuity== &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Another thing this brings to mind is the note in the article on [[Daniel (Alexandrow) of Erie]] : &amp;quot;Also, simply doing his own extensive research on ancient rites came in useful during the elevation of Metropolitan Philaret in 1964. This was the first time the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia had elected a successor who was not a Metropolitan in episcopal rank, and inasmuch as the remainder bishops were of lesser rank themselves, many were unsure of the elevation in such a situation. However, thanks to the research of Bishop Daniel, who was yet a reader, the Synod of Bishops was able to essentially replicate the office of elevation of a Metropolitan as performed in 15th century Russia.&amp;quot; - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I'm also reminded of the restoration of the rite of [[enthronement|enthroning]] a patriarch of Moscow that was enacted when St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] was elected.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:04, November 7, 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Miscategorization of links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The letter of Patriarch Sergius I to Vladimir Lossky is not a 'criticism' of the Western Rite, but rather pro-Western Rite. - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Blogs?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Do we really want to include links to blogs as part of this encyclopedia? Blogs have nothing to do with [[NPOV]], and they often stray far afield from the purported topic. One I glanced at was recommending the writings of William F. Buckley, Jr. -- nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy! --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:31, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: If they're exclusively (or near-exclusively) topical, then linking them is fine.  If not, then no.  If the only thing that distinguishes the weblogs in question is that they're owned by WR people, then that doesn't seem enough to warrant a link.  Individual articles posted there could certainly be linked if they're substantial and contribute significantly to the topic.  There's no reason that the links couldn't be added to [[Online Orthodox Communities]], though.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:38, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: The blogs I linked were three:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: **[http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html The Western Rite section of Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog] (the section I linked) consists primarily of historical documents written by such as Fr. Alexander Turner, first Vicar-General of the Antiochian WRV -- precisely the sort of thing that should be linked to this page as a resource.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: **[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] is the blog to which our critic refers. Somehow he scrolled two screens down, skipped a photo and news story about the first Continuing Anglican bishop ever to convert to the WRV, and &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; at a sentence in the middle of a post about Western spiritual books, located above several stories concerning objections to the Western Rite and an article written by Fr. Hieromonk (Dom) James Deschene of Christminster Monastery (ROCOR, WR). Further down, he would have found patristic quotations on feast days, Byzantine practices that correlate with the Western Rite, and news about new Western Rite communities entering Oriental Orthodoxy. Our critic &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; only a one-sentence aside well down the blog, then hastened here to present it as the only content in the entire blog, which allegedly has &amp;quot;nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy!&amp;quot; How odd.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: **Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] is a source for this OrthodoxWiki webpage and is acknowledged as such. Certainly his valuable blog is on-topic.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::As you can see, all are exclusively or near-exclusively topical. As such, I've added them all back to the page under &amp;quot;News and Views.&amp;quot; If the editorial team disagrees, feel free to remove them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::All three blogs are more on-topic for this OrthodoxWiki page than the listservs. This is particularly true of &amp;quot;Occidentalis,&amp;quot; which primarily discusses liturgies not currently practiced anywhere in Orthodoxy (I'm not referencing the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite&amp;quot; here but others besides that not authorized '''anywhere'''), acts as a clearinghouse for inaccurate anti-WRV rumors, and allows vagante Old Catholics to promote their own churches and titles.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Too bad my blog http://orthodox-okie.blogspot.com wasn't restore as well - it also is mostly a Western Rite Orthodox blog, though more towards the ROCOR usage (which might be why it was snubbed?) - [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 15:41, March 7, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Ari, don't imagine slights where there are none (especially during Lent, ''mon frere''). I didn't restore your blog, because occasionally you go 2-3 posts on something unrelated -- and I thought if a detractor was going to go crazy over one stray sentence, perhaps I'd better err on the side of caution. I added your blog to the [[Online Orthodox Communities]]. Feel free to add your blog to the [[Western Rite]] page, too. No offense meant to an outstanding blog. -- '''Willibrord'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: That was tongue in cheek. ;) No problem, I've actually thought about separating all the Western Rite Orthodox (and other Orthodox posts) to a separate blog, separate the wheat out from the tares. That might be a more appropriate link. [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 08:21, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My remarks have been misunderstood and mischaracterized. I didn't say that the blog in question had nothing to do with Western rite Orthodoxy -- I said that the comments about William F. Buckley have nothing to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy. (BTW, I happen to like Mr. Buckley.) And although I didn't see anything outrageous on the website, I have seen other &amp;quot;Orthodox&amp;quot; blogs that do mix in a fair amount of partisan politics, and it's a road I would rather us not go down. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:52, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: With all due respect, I believe my comments were a fair reading of your words above, and your words above were not a fair reading of my blog nor even the post in question, for the reasons I pointed out. But it seems this discussion has run its course. -- '''Willibrord'''.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: As a related issue, it is perhaps best not to be involved in the promotion or lack thereof of one's own material.  Putting up a link is one thing, but if it becomes a contentious issue, it would seem best for the sake of neutrality to let others decide whether one's material is worthy of inclusion.  It's an inherent conflict of interest to do otherwise.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:05, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Some Corrections re France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted some inaccuarate information. (1) The Gallican liturgy was not a usage of the Roman rite. (2) The Gallican rite as restored by Bishop Jean Kovalevsky was almost entirely Western, drawing on various Western missals, sacramentaries, etc. Most of the borrowings from the Byzantine that form part of the ordinary today (which is a small part of the liturgy) were added c. 1960 at the direction of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. (3) Alexis van der Mensbrugghe was not a member of the French Church -- he worked with the French Church and taught at its St Denys Institute while the French Church was still a part of the Moscow Patriarchate. (4) I replaced the decription of the French Church as &amp;quot;in canonical limbo&amp;quot; with &amp;quot;isolation.&amp;quot; The use of the term &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; here is inappropriate. A good source for understanding this common misuse of the word is Fr Alexander Schmemann's article on the situation of the Church in America. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:41, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reworking ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I have substantially re-worked sections of this article in order to redress perceived (my perception) inadequacies/imbalances and to perhaps bring some sections more up to date&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted the section headed &amp;quot;criticisms&amp;quot; simply because I see no reason why we should be required to give space to the critics of Western Rite within Orthodoxy.  No one is going to take kindly to my adding a paragraph of criticism to a section of Orthodoxwiki which details the use of Chrysostoma in the diaspora, so I see no reason why we should have a criticism section here.&lt;br /&gt;
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I filled out some of the details of ROCOR's Western Rite activities and made other more minor adjustments.&lt;br /&gt;
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I will be only sporadically available over the next few weeks to defend my changes - so please don't take silence for anything other than the fact that I may not have seen a comment.&lt;br /&gt;
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Suggestion:  Do we need to include the picture of the &amp;quot;circus&amp;quot;.  This is ammunition for the critics of Western Rite - it even causes severe criticism within the ranks of Western Riters.  I see no reason for including this weapon which our detractors can and do use to disparage us.&lt;br /&gt;
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Offieriad-Mynach&lt;br /&gt;
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First of all, I am not sure why the page is closed off.  There are certain numbers of facts that are incorrect. The second largest grouping of Sarum-use parishes in the US is the Milan Synod, an Old Calendarist group.  The growth of the Synod has been a direct result of Orthodox people who have been fed up with the Vicariate's policy.  The Milan Synod's Western rite numbers are larger than that of ROCOR's.  Secondly, the Sarum use in Milan is not significantly different from that of ROCOR.  Even Fr Aidan Keller's work on the Sarum rite is not all that different; and that never was the official use of the New York Archdiocese anyway. -- Suaiden&lt;br /&gt;
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:See the rest of this talk page for why this article was protected - edit-warring, basically, mainly over the l'ECOF.  Of course, this is - as far as I can tell - quite unrelated to your points, so you may want to suggest the change on this page, where it can be incorporated into the article.  That said, I'm going to leave it to others (currently, tiredness is probably not helping my critical judgement) as to where Milan Synod fits into [[OW:MCB]]. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 12:15, April 27, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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And why is the eccleasistical status of the Synod of Milan somewhat down in the artile, while the Orthodox Church of France's was allowed to be placed in the lead section?--[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 18:15, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Not sure exactly what is being referred to...?&lt;br /&gt;
:In any event, I don't see why either should be placed in the lead section - the point of OW is for those classed under MCB (i.e. the 14/15 autocephalous churches), which neither belong to. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 23:00, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Language about the Church of France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The language I used is taken from the article on the Orthodox Church of France and was the result of one of the moderators, Fr John, resolving a dispute. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:31, February 13, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Not exactly. Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] said nothing about &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; but mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; That is broader than merely &amp;quot;the ancient patriachates.&amp;quot; L'ECOF is not in communion with any local Orthodox Church, either; hence, more precise language is needed. (This is, of course, a sanitized way of noting L'ECOF is not in communion with anyone and hence not canonical.) -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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Yes, EXACTLY. I pasted and clipped the sentence from the opening section of the article on the Church of France as Fr John approved it (and froze it). Your use of &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; is not accurate language, nor is &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox Churches&amp;quot; particularly illuminating -- recognized by whom? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 06:11, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: In some universally recognised Orthodox Churches, episcopacies are sold.  By doing this, these churches are &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot;, but are still universally &amp;quot;recognised&amp;quot; churches.  The term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is not congruent with either &amp;quot;generally recognised&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;universally recognised&amp;quot;.  In this context, &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; really is quite unhelpful. chrisg 2008 Feb 15 o2:51 EAST&lt;br /&gt;
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::Fr. John's exact wording is vastly superior to yours -- which again is inexact and misleading. By mentioning only &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates,&amp;quot; you may lead the reader to believe L'ECOF is in communion with some other autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church. You are not. Surely you don't wish to mislead anyone. Hence, clarification is needed -- probably on the L'ECOF page, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
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::&amp;quot;chrisg,&amp;quot; such character assassinations, inaccuracies, and malicious generalizations will not be useful on this site. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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The exat wording approved and frozen by Fr John in the article is &amp;quot;The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; You misrepresent what this says, since is refers not only to the ancient patriarchates, but to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Willibrord's continued attempts to edit the language adds NOTHING to the description except redundancy -- patriachates are autocephalous. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Yet Fr. John's exact wording was more precise than your continual edits. &lt;br /&gt;
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:If you intention is to communicate that L'ECOF is not in communion with any autocepahlous ''or'' autonomous Orthodox Church, surely you don't object to this being spelled out explicitly. There are those, like myself, who may not understand the nuance of your wording, which implies a different reality. After all, an The Orthodox Church of France is not currently recognized by nor in communion with any [http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_autocephalous_and_autonomous_churches autonomous or autocephalous church] is not necessarily a &amp;quot;patriachal&amp;quot; church, and some (the OCA) are not recognized by all &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; Yet the OCA does not recognize L'ECOF, either. Is L'ECOF in communion with some Orthodox Church, any Orthodox Church at all? If not, this wording better describes that and should not be changed to something more ambiguous. &lt;br /&gt;
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:Looks like it's time for someone to freeze this section again. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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First, it isn't my language that I'm repeating. Second, how does your edit add ANY information? Is there an Orthodox Church you have in mind that is NOT included in the phrase &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot;? Your language is less precise and less accurate. There are disputes as to what Orthodox Churches are autocephalous, for example. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:13, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: For the last time, not all &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; are patriarchal, nor are all those listed on OrthodoxWiki recognized by &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; (I'm thinking specifically of the OCA.)  &lt;br /&gt;
:As noted, Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; As you note, &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox churches&amp;quot; is not a widely used term; &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; is a more understandable substitute. Thus, my edit more closely reflects his wording and intentions than yours. It should replace yours, both here and in the L'ECOF article, and be frozen.-- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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There is no ambiguity or imprecision in the original wording. The OCA is &amp;quot;in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:24, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:There is greater precision on this language (not to mention an additional link to OrthodoxWiki). It seems your language is antiseptic and intended to introduce ambiguity about L'ECOF's actual canonical situation (namely, that it is in communion with no one). L'ECOF is not, in fact, in communion with anyone, is it? Why the roiling displeasure when this is so noted? &lt;br /&gt;
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:At any rate, this is a matter the administrators will have to settle. --[[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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It's not my language, and it's certainly not intended to introduce ambiguity. The language of &amp;quot;in communion&amp;quot; is imprecise, in that other Churches have certainly communed both lay and clerical members of the Church of France -- with the blessing of hierarchs of those Churches. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:36, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'm not sure how many times this article (and the Orthodox Church of France article) has basically been changed between one edit to the other, but I'm fairly sure it's in the double digits.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Irrespective, perhaps someone would be able to enlighten on why, in an overtly [[OW:MCB|Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias]]ed Orthodox encyclopaedia, it is not possible to say 'presently outside the Orthodox Church'?  It's not as if there is any ambiguity about the status, like there was until recently with ROCOR - this revert war has been between one set of words and the other set, when the point to communicate is that it is currently outside the Church, which can be done without needing to resort to any word above three syllables.  &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 09:42, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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First, we have had many months of peace and stability on these articles. Second, I have yet to see how changing the statement is in any way an improvement. Third, I think Pistevo's comments are unhelpful. What is the point of mentioning &amp;quot;Chalcedonian&amp;quot; when the French Church is clearly Chalcedonian. And I don't I think saying &amp;quot;outside the Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is at all accurate. When &amp;quot;the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; includes Churches and hierarchs who certainly view the Church of France as Orthodox (though irregular due to its current lack of an autocephalous sponsor) and have accepted its ordinations and communed its laity and clerics, then it is simply wrong to suggest it is outside the Orthodox Church. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 10:08, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Article protection==&lt;br /&gt;
Gentlemen, this article has been protected to stop the revert-war that has been ongoing today.  ''Mainstream Orthodox Church'' is the usual, non-controversial term here on the wiki.  This explicitly refers to the [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches]].  It is not controversial to say that a particular group is &amp;quot;not recognized by&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;out of communion with&amp;quot; the churches on that list.&lt;br /&gt;
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I've adjusted the language to what I regard as more precise and less inflammatory.  Though the &amp;quot;is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; language is true, it could at least be seen to imply a semi-papal ecclesiology (i.e., that the ancient patriarchates define what it means to be Orthodox).&lt;br /&gt;
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''Uncanonical'' is not generally a useful term here, since its definition in common usage is all over the map.  What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of ''not recognized by'' or ''out of communion with'').&lt;br /&gt;
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If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:09, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I'm apologize that I've let this go on so long. &lt;br /&gt;
::I agree with Fr. Andrew about the term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; but I'm also concerned about the phrase &amp;quot;Mainstream&amp;quot; (I know we use it in the style manual for our famous NPOV, but I think it fits better there)... If &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is too vague, &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; seems too relativist... On a previous revision of the article I had suggested &amp;quot;not recognized any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I think Fr. Andrew is right in his caution -- it is not simply the antiquity or prestige of these churches that makes them reference points. At the same time, &amp;quot;not currently recognized by nor in communion with any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is certainly written from a &amp;quot;Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias&amp;quot; which is actually fine here. I like Fr. Andrew's sentence: &amp;quot;What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of not recognized by or out of communion with&amp;quot; -- with this, there is no need for additional accusations invective, or high emotions. This is simply a question of fact. With this in mind, I'm going to change &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; back to &amp;quot;any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::If anyone has a better idea of how to work this balance out, let's talk here first. I'll watch the page to keep in the loop. Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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::: &amp;quot;Any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; has problems, too (e.g., the [[Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church]], the [[Macedonian Orthodox Church]], the [[Montenegrin Orthodox Church]], etc.).  There has to be some way to refer to what makes it onto [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches|this list]] which is both descriptive and exclusive.  I prefer ''mainstream'' (linked to the list), since even the OCists often use the term.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:33, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::...why not just say that the group isn't in communion with the Orthodox Church?  Between MCB and the fact that they're not in communion with, well, anyone, this is both accurate and brief.  And, I'm fairly certain that 'autonomous' is superfluous - an autonomous church, in external relations, still under its autocephalous mother church. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 13:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Which brings me back to the original language -- how was referring to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; inadequate? That covers all of the autocephalous and autonomous Churches. It also avoid the less than correct language about &amp;quot;not in communion.&amp;quot; A more descriptive statement would be that it exists in a state of &amp;quot;impaired communion&amp;quot; in that at least some of the other Churches recognize the ordinations of the French Church and have (officially) communed their clerics at the altar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Because Rome is an ancient patriarchate?&lt;br /&gt;
:Who officially communes them?  Recognising the orders is no guarantee - [[Alexis Toth|we recognise(d) Catholic orders]], but that doesn't mean that we're in communion. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:08, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Rome is not &amp;quot;one of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I've personally received communion from the head of one autocephalous Church and concelebrated with and received from the head of an autonomous Church, and been allowed to receive at the altar by the senior bishop of one of the ancient Orthodox patriarchates. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:22, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No.  It's an ancient patriarchate which is outside the Orthodox Church, demonstrating that age and prestige do not denote within-the-Church-or-not.&lt;br /&gt;
:One person's experience would constitute either 'original research' or 'improper sourcing' - and even so, it can be seen as a sequence of isolated cases, rather than acceptance by the Church in question. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:47, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You seem to miss the point of the original wording -- &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; excludes Rome and non-&amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; Orthodox Churches but includes the OCA, etc. I wasn't trying to &amp;quot;source&amp;quot; the article by my own experience; I merely answered your question on this talk page. However, since I have been directly involved with the hierarchs in question, I do think I am in a better position to address the question than someone who has not been. But it is also more than just my experience; when I was given permission to receive at the altar by the primate's chancellor in one jurisdiction, I was told that this was his Church's policy regarding our clergy -- policy, and not an isolated or idiosyncratic event. That same chancellor later offered to receive me into his Church and give me a parish. When the chancellor of another Church here telephoned a patriarchal bishop in Europe to ask about the status of our clergy, he was told &amp;quot;Of course they are Orthodox.&amp;quot; I have not tried to put any of this into the article; I am simply responding to the questions asked.  --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:10, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The point of the original wording (or any wording) is to communicate an idea, but what that wording communicates is that being an ancient patriarchate is the primary measure, when it's clearly not.  Even if it was, it would simply be a case of double-repetition - the aforementioned Orthodox Churches, in this MCB'd encyclopaedia, constitute the Orthodox Church.&lt;br /&gt;
:The point of asking that wasn't to give a bait-and-switch - I was actually asking about any official policies, edicts, proclamations, etc. regarding l'ECOF.  Are there any issued, who from, and what are they? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 17:32, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Not sure where Pistevo's &amp;quot;bait and switch&amp;quot; comes in, but I'm still interested in other ways to phrase this... — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Just trying to make explicit the fact that the question was not asked for disingeneous reasons... &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 03:37, February 16, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Reverts to inaccuracies about ROCOR, Czechs, Poles==&lt;br /&gt;
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Saying Christminster is the same of Mount Royal is incorrect. I have personal emails from Dom James (directing edits to the Christminster website) that explain clearly: Mount Royal still exists, and since its reception in 1962, and the election of the Prior as Abbot Augustine in 1963 - remains as Mount Royal (in Florida since 1993, where the Abbot retired in that year.) Christminster is a daughter house, founded in 1993 with Dom James as the Abbot (he was previously the Prior of Mount Royal.) I think some ROCOR clergy have also made other edits: about the Czech, and Polish Western rite - that were deleted (for which we have evidence from diocesan archives, as well as from our clergy who were there.) The Czech diocese was founded in 1898. Twenty-three years later the Serbians along with Met. Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of ROCOR consecrated St. Gorazd (Pavlik) as bishop for that diocese - which remained Western rite for a few more years. More than 'half a dozen parishes', the whole Diocese of Grodno was established with Bp Alexis consecrated as Bishop of Grodno for the received 'Polish Catholic National Church (not the same as the PNCC.) 'Dwindling' doesn't describe what happened to that body: they, like St. Gorazd, were largely arrested by the Nazis and placed in death camps. According to Fr. Michael Keiser (DME-AOCNA), there still exists one Western Rite community in the Polish Church in Poland. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==Sarum Usages==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am not an expert on this topic and do not claim to be, although I have some older and also recent sources dealing with Sarum usage, and am interested in western rites generally, (as well as Eastern and Oriental rites). I also want to avoid generating any heat on the topic.  I also understand there is no definitive Sarum Usage, but a number of usages belonging to that family. So with that in mind, I have made a few changes in the body of the article just now and pray no-one is offended by them.   It appears to me the reports of 2008 that Met Hilarion of ROCOR permitted the use of Fr Adrian Keller's selections and translations of the Sarum usage, alters the general picture somewhat and the article needed minor corrections to reflect that. If any contributor can improve on what I have altered, please do so. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:42, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I added a few more changes on top of your changes. Most of the Sarum usages are essentially the same, generally qualifying only as individual local customs. On paper there is virtually no difference between them, though there are minor points of dispute between users of the rites.  In actual fact, between Holy Name Abbey's and Fr Aidan's usages (both of which ROCOR approved), the differences are primarily stylistic in terms of rendering the English. I'm not an expert, but seeing this use often and using both the Abbey's and Father Aidan's texts, there is nothing in them that is essentially disparate (and I am certain the Cascades Sarum used in Australia is also very similar), save for their translators' views on how to render individual texts. The whole question of &amp;quot;authentic&amp;quot; versus &amp;quot;inauthentic&amp;quot; Sarum was nothing more than politics, when the texts themselves really weren't that different to begin with. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:52, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
The article on Liturgy, as it is now, says &amp;quot;The majority celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow, which is an adaptation of the Communion service from the 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer[4]&amp;quot;.  I earlier questioned the date of 1928.  St Tikhon did his preparatory work in the early 1900s.  Earlier in the main article it says his work was based on the 1898 (USA) Book of Common Prayer which derived from the Scottish Book of Common Prayer, not the English BCP.  The citation given does not seem to support the 1928 date.  In addition, one of the professors at the nearby national Episcopalian seminary (Rev Dr Joseph Frary) tells me the Saint Tikhon liturgy is almost completely the same as the 1898 (USA) BCP. Perhaps another citation could be found justifying the 1928 date, or the date changed to 1898.  Thanks.  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:56, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm not against changing the date to 1898; I am not an expert on the date. But almost every source I read, including the footnote given in that essay, says &amp;quot;1928 Book of common prayer&amp;quot;. I am not against putting it at 1898. I am against taking out a date altogether until we revert to the intellectually dishonest &amp;quot;ancient Orthodox use of the English Church&amp;quot;, which has happened before, resurrecting the whole blasted fight. I have an idea for a fix.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 03:02, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Liturgy of St Tikhon was compiled by Fr Jospeh Angwin and was based on the 1928 BCP, which was the use in his parish, the Church of the Incarnation, Detroit. St Tikhon did not produce a liturgy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:04, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Was that the English 1928 BCP (which parliament rejected)? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:06, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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No, the American BCP. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:10, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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So, strictly speaking, it would be wrong to say the Liturgy of St Tikhon was approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow, but more correct to say the Holy Synod of Moscow approved the concept in principal but the rite now in use is based on the (Protestant Episcopal Church of USA) Book of Common Prayer of 1928? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:13, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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That's right. Moscow gave permission to St Tikhon to produce an Orthodox version of the American BCP, but that never happened. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:16, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Could you or Joseph perhaps rewrite the article to clarify those details please?  There has been widespread confusion over this for many years now.  Thanks  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:21, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, just an fyi...  I found this article on the Wikipedia: [[w:Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)|Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)]]; I do not think I saw a reference to this non-canonical group in this article's section on congregations. Anyways, I was wondering if someone with knowledge of this would be able to clarify who this group is in a succint way and add it to the section on Congregations? Or if it even applies here...(i.e ''Old Catholic'' versus ''Western Rite''??) ?&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 01:54, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: This is one of the [[Independent Orthodox churches]] and as such isn't included in our standard articles.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 12:16, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
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All images should be related to the article's main points. Thus, I deleted the image of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal,&amp;quot; which is not being celebrated anywhere within mainline Orthodoxy. (Except, perhaps, in one man's home prayers?) Fr. Alexander Turner was consequential in establishing many, many WRO congregations and seems a more representative image of Western Rite Orthodoxy (in both theory ''and'' practice). However, I kept a link to the image of the non-canonical Milan Synod's authorization of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; as a footnote, as there had been none.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 12:19, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Once again we see aggressive promoters of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; invade the board. I see in retrospect the picture labeled &amp;quot;Synod of Milan Authorisation of Sarum Missal, ed Fr Aidan Keller&amp;quot; does not actually mention the authorization of the OSRM; it's just a picture of the MS Metropolitan Evloghios stuck in the missal. (Of course, the monastery that produced the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; once had [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4012.0 a picture of the Patriarch of Antioch in its vestibule with the words &amp;quot;Our Patriarch&amp;quot; on it], as though they were Antiochian, so this picture doesn't carry much weight for me.) It would be an odd authorization, because Abp. John LoBue did NOT authorize its use in his Eastern USA archdiocese, preferring his own (superior) translation. To my knowledge, the OSRM was not used MS-wide (or widely even within the Western USA archdiocese).&lt;br /&gt;
:I should add, '''I'm not sure a missal that is not celebrated anywhere in Orthodoxy''' (with the possible exception of a spare room in one person's sister's apartment) '''is even appropriate to an article on the Western Rite and its &amp;quot;Congregations.&amp;quot;''' Since I was [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism falsely accused] of [[OrthodoxWiki:Vandalism|&amp;quot;vandalism&amp;quot;]] for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own. But frankly, Orthodox priests use all sorts of things for their private prayers; the moderators may want to consider whether one person's private prayers are material to the page at all. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:40, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T21:39:15Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold the full Orthodox faith in common with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]] but celebrate Western forms of liturgy. Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  At present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
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The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
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In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
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However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
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One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.  &lt;br /&gt;
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===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
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There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
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====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
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Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
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The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
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====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
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Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
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Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics.&lt;br /&gt;
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==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
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The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
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The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
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:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
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==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]&lt;br /&gt;
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By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries: one located in Canada, one in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Use]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
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Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
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In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite.  Some have stated that on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.  &lt;br /&gt;
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In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion also gave a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), a blessing to use his own translation of the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.  &lt;br /&gt;
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It should also be noted that there are a number of churches that call themselves &amp;quot;Orthodox&amp;quot; and use various Western rites but who are not in communion with or related to the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by or in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]]. This recension is different from the version of the Sarum Rite used within ROCOR before 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T21:38:15Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Congregations */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold the full Orthodox faith in common with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]] but celebrate Western forms of liturgy. Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  At present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries, one located in Canada, on in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Use]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite.  Some have stated that on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion also gave a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), a blessing to use his own translation of the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should also be noted that there are a number of churches that call themselves &amp;quot;Orthodox&amp;quot; and use various Western rites but who are not in communion with or related to the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by or in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]]. This recension is different from the version of the Sarum Rite used within ROCOR before 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T21:37:26Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold the full Orthodox faith in common with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]] but celebrate Western forms of liturgy. Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  At present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations and usages==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:SarumKeller02.jpg|right|thumb|Title page of Sarum Missal, ed Fr Aidan Keller]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:SarumKeller04.jpg|right|thumb|Synod of Milan Authorisation of Sarum Missal, ed Fr Aidan Keller]]&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries, one located in Canada, on in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Rite]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite.  Some have stated on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion also gave a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], a blessing to use his own translation of the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers (see image) , while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod (see image).  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should also be noted that there are a number of churches that use various Western rites but who are not in communion with the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]] (different from the version of the [[Sarum Rite]] used within ROCOR before 2008.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T21:37:13Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Congregations */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold in common the full Orthodox faith with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]], and at present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries, one located in Canada, on in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Use]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite.  Some have stated that on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion also gave a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), a blessing to use his own translation of the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should also be noted that there are a number of churches that call themselves &amp;quot;Orthodox&amp;quot; and use various Western rites but who are not in communion with or related to the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by or in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]]. This recension is different from the version of the Sarum Rite used within ROCOR before 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
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[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T12:21:09Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;*[[/Archive 1]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==New Changes==&lt;br /&gt;
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Folks, with the new receptions in ROCOR please understand that the party line vs. facts thing has to stop. Some new FACTS.&lt;br /&gt;
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1) St Hilarion press is not named after Archbishop Hilarion so there is no &amp;quot;different Archbishop Hilarion&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
2) Metropolitan Hilarion (formerly Archbishop of both Sydney and New York) are all the same guy.&lt;br /&gt;
3) He blessed Fr Aidan to use the same text as Milan's Western Archdiocese, largely Fr Aidan's own work.&lt;br /&gt;
4) He blessed Fr David (Pierce, formerly Father Cuthbert) to continue as he was, and he was using Milan's Eastern Archdiocese texts.&lt;br /&gt;
5) That makes the &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; ROCOR texts, in fact, Milan Synod usages. If you can get over jurisdictional bickering and focus on what is liturgically accurate, folks, a lot of pain will be avoided in this transition.&lt;br /&gt;
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Thank you.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:10, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Do you happen to have citations for the ROCOR receptions? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 06:31, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Physically? No, I just have public confirmations of them online.&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk Aidan was received as a hieromonk last week.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxWest/message/18669&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13045&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk David (formerly Fr Cuthbert, which makes no sense, given David was his birthname) was confirmed by Fr Steven Ritter.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13121&lt;br /&gt;
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I was not pleased with either of these confimations from my perspective, of course, but they did happen. Both were received in by chierothesia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:40, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The Archbishop Hilarion of Texas mentioned on the title page of the Sarum Missal published by St Hilarion Press is NOT the same person as Metropolitan Hilarion of New York (formerly Archbishop Hilarion of Sydney and Australia).  This is a factual point.  The Missal was not published with the authority of ROCOR. Authority for use in ROCOR, if granted, was very much later than original publication of the missal. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 09:41, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Methinks the issue here is of some ambiguous wording:  &amp;quot;In 2008, a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], was blessed to use his own translations of the pre-schism [[Sarum rite]], found in the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', by Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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:: This could be read in (at least) two ways:  1.  +Hilarion did the blessing.  2.  +Hilarion wrote the missal.  I think Joseph is reading it as #1, while Chris is reading it as #2.  Maybe y'all will want to work out some wording that's less ambiguous.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:29, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Splitting up article==&lt;br /&gt;
The article is getting huge, and y'all's good suggestions and plans would seem to make it even bigger.  Perhaps it should be transitioned into a general article with multiple sections, then each section having a &amp;quot;''Main article: [[Foo]]''&amp;quot; included at the top where [[Foo]] becomes the more detailed article on that subject.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 12:55, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Lack of liturgical continuity== &lt;br /&gt;
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Another thing this brings to mind is the note in the article on [[Daniel (Alexandrow) of Erie]] : &amp;quot;Also, simply doing his own extensive research on ancient rites came in useful during the elevation of Metropolitan Philaret in 1964. This was the first time the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia had elected a successor who was not a Metropolitan in episcopal rank, and inasmuch as the remainder bishops were of lesser rank themselves, many were unsure of the elevation in such a situation. However, thanks to the research of Bishop Daniel, who was yet a reader, the Synod of Bishops was able to essentially replicate the office of elevation of a Metropolitan as performed in 15th century Russia.&amp;quot; - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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: I'm also reminded of the restoration of the rite of [[enthronement|enthroning]] a patriarch of Moscow that was enacted when St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] was elected.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:04, November 7, 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Miscategorization of links==&lt;br /&gt;
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The letter of Patriarch Sergius I to Vladimir Lossky is not a 'criticism' of the Western Rite, but rather pro-Western Rite. - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Blogs?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Do we really want to include links to blogs as part of this encyclopedia? Blogs have nothing to do with [[NPOV]], and they often stray far afield from the purported topic. One I glanced at was recommending the writings of William F. Buckley, Jr. -- nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy! --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:31, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: If they're exclusively (or near-exclusively) topical, then linking them is fine.  If not, then no.  If the only thing that distinguishes the weblogs in question is that they're owned by WR people, then that doesn't seem enough to warrant a link.  Individual articles posted there could certainly be linked if they're substantial and contribute significantly to the topic.  There's no reason that the links couldn't be added to [[Online Orthodox Communities]], though.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:38, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: The blogs I linked were three:&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html The Western Rite section of Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog] (the section I linked) consists primarily of historical documents written by such as Fr. Alexander Turner, first Vicar-General of the Antiochian WRV -- precisely the sort of thing that should be linked to this page as a resource.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] is the blog to which our critic refers. Somehow he scrolled two screens down, skipped a photo and news story about the first Continuing Anglican bishop ever to convert to the WRV, and &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; at a sentence in the middle of a post about Western spiritual books, located above several stories concerning objections to the Western Rite and an article written by Fr. Hieromonk (Dom) James Deschene of Christminster Monastery (ROCOR, WR). Further down, he would have found patristic quotations on feast days, Byzantine practices that correlate with the Western Rite, and news about new Western Rite communities entering Oriental Orthodoxy. Our critic &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; only a one-sentence aside well down the blog, then hastened here to present it as the only content in the entire blog, which allegedly has &amp;quot;nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy!&amp;quot; How odd.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] is a source for this OrthodoxWiki webpage and is acknowledged as such. Certainly his valuable blog is on-topic.&lt;br /&gt;
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::As you can see, all are exclusively or near-exclusively topical. As such, I've added them all back to the page under &amp;quot;News and Views.&amp;quot; If the editorial team disagrees, feel free to remove them.&lt;br /&gt;
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::All three blogs are more on-topic for this OrthodoxWiki page than the listservs. This is particularly true of &amp;quot;Occidentalis,&amp;quot; which primarily discusses liturgies not currently practiced anywhere in Orthodoxy (I'm not referencing the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite&amp;quot; here but others besides that not authorized '''anywhere'''), acts as a clearinghouse for inaccurate anti-WRV rumors, and allows vagante Old Catholics to promote their own churches and titles.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Too bad my blog http://orthodox-okie.blogspot.com wasn't restore as well - it also is mostly a Western Rite Orthodox blog, though more towards the ROCOR usage (which might be why it was snubbed?) - [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 15:41, March 7, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Ari, don't imagine slights where there are none (especially during Lent, ''mon frere''). I didn't restore your blog, because occasionally you go 2-3 posts on something unrelated -- and I thought if a detractor was going to go crazy over one stray sentence, perhaps I'd better err on the side of caution. I added your blog to the [[Online Orthodox Communities]]. Feel free to add your blog to the [[Western Rite]] page, too. No offense meant to an outstanding blog. -- '''Willibrord'''&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: That was tongue in cheek. ;) No problem, I've actually thought about separating all the Western Rite Orthodox (and other Orthodox posts) to a separate blog, separate the wheat out from the tares. That might be a more appropriate link. [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 08:21, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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My remarks have been misunderstood and mischaracterized. I didn't say that the blog in question had nothing to do with Western rite Orthodoxy -- I said that the comments about William F. Buckley have nothing to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy. (BTW, I happen to like Mr. Buckley.) And although I didn't see anything outrageous on the website, I have seen other &amp;quot;Orthodox&amp;quot; blogs that do mix in a fair amount of partisan politics, and it's a road I would rather us not go down. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:52, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: With all due respect, I believe my comments were a fair reading of your words above, and your words above were not a fair reading of my blog nor even the post in question, for the reasons I pointed out. But it seems this discussion has run its course. -- '''Willibrord'''.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: As a related issue, it is perhaps best not to be involved in the promotion or lack thereof of one's own material.  Putting up a link is one thing, but if it becomes a contentious issue, it would seem best for the sake of neutrality to let others decide whether one's material is worthy of inclusion.  It's an inherent conflict of interest to do otherwise.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:05, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Some Corrections re France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted some inaccuarate information. (1) The Gallican liturgy was not a usage of the Roman rite. (2) The Gallican rite as restored by Bishop Jean Kovalevsky was almost entirely Western, drawing on various Western missals, sacramentaries, etc. Most of the borrowings from the Byzantine that form part of the ordinary today (which is a small part of the liturgy) were added c. 1960 at the direction of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. (3) Alexis van der Mensbrugghe was not a member of the French Church -- he worked with the French Church and taught at its St Denys Institute while the French Church was still a part of the Moscow Patriarchate. (4) I replaced the decription of the French Church as &amp;quot;in canonical limbo&amp;quot; with &amp;quot;isolation.&amp;quot; The use of the term &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; here is inappropriate. A good source for understanding this common misuse of the word is Fr Alexander Schmemann's article on the situation of the Church in America. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:41, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reworking ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I have substantially re-worked sections of this article in order to redress perceived (my perception) inadequacies/imbalances and to perhaps bring some sections more up to date&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted the section headed &amp;quot;criticisms&amp;quot; simply because I see no reason why we should be required to give space to the critics of Western Rite within Orthodoxy.  No one is going to take kindly to my adding a paragraph of criticism to a section of Orthodoxwiki which details the use of Chrysostoma in the diaspora, so I see no reason why we should have a criticism section here.&lt;br /&gt;
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I filled out some of the details of ROCOR's Western Rite activities and made other more minor adjustments.&lt;br /&gt;
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I will be only sporadically available over the next few weeks to defend my changes - so please don't take silence for anything other than the fact that I may not have seen a comment.&lt;br /&gt;
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Suggestion:  Do we need to include the picture of the &amp;quot;circus&amp;quot;.  This is ammunition for the critics of Western Rite - it even causes severe criticism within the ranks of Western Riters.  I see no reason for including this weapon which our detractors can and do use to disparage us.&lt;br /&gt;
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Offieriad-Mynach&lt;br /&gt;
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First of all, I am not sure why the page is closed off.  There are certain numbers of facts that are incorrect. The second largest grouping of Sarum-use parishes in the US is the Milan Synod, an Old Calendarist group.  The growth of the Synod has been a direct result of Orthodox people who have been fed up with the Vicariate's policy.  The Milan Synod's Western rite numbers are larger than that of ROCOR's.  Secondly, the Sarum use in Milan is not significantly different from that of ROCOR.  Even Fr Aidan Keller's work on the Sarum rite is not all that different; and that never was the official use of the New York Archdiocese anyway. -- Suaiden&lt;br /&gt;
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:See the rest of this talk page for why this article was protected - edit-warring, basically, mainly over the l'ECOF.  Of course, this is - as far as I can tell - quite unrelated to your points, so you may want to suggest the change on this page, where it can be incorporated into the article.  That said, I'm going to leave it to others (currently, tiredness is probably not helping my critical judgement) as to where Milan Synod fits into [[OW:MCB]]. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 12:15, April 27, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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And why is the eccleasistical status of the Synod of Milan somewhat down in the artile, while the Orthodox Church of France's was allowed to be placed in the lead section?--[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 18:15, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Not sure exactly what is being referred to...?&lt;br /&gt;
:In any event, I don't see why either should be placed in the lead section - the point of OW is for those classed under MCB (i.e. the 14/15 autocephalous churches), which neither belong to. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 23:00, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Language about the Church of France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The language I used is taken from the article on the Orthodox Church of France and was the result of one of the moderators, Fr John, resolving a dispute. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:31, February 13, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Not exactly. Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] said nothing about &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; but mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; That is broader than merely &amp;quot;the ancient patriachates.&amp;quot; L'ECOF is not in communion with any local Orthodox Church, either; hence, more precise language is needed. (This is, of course, a sanitized way of noting L'ECOF is not in communion with anyone and hence not canonical.) -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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Yes, EXACTLY. I pasted and clipped the sentence from the opening section of the article on the Church of France as Fr John approved it (and froze it). Your use of &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; is not accurate language, nor is &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox Churches&amp;quot; particularly illuminating -- recognized by whom? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 06:11, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: In some universally recognised Orthodox Churches, episcopacies are sold.  By doing this, these churches are &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot;, but are still universally &amp;quot;recognised&amp;quot; churches.  The term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is not congruent with either &amp;quot;generally recognised&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;universally recognised&amp;quot;.  In this context, &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; really is quite unhelpful. chrisg 2008 Feb 15 o2:51 EAST&lt;br /&gt;
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::Fr. John's exact wording is vastly superior to yours -- which again is inexact and misleading. By mentioning only &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates,&amp;quot; you may lead the reader to believe L'ECOF is in communion with some other autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church. You are not. Surely you don't wish to mislead anyone. Hence, clarification is needed -- probably on the L'ECOF page, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
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::&amp;quot;chrisg,&amp;quot; such character assassinations, inaccuracies, and malicious generalizations will not be useful on this site. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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The exat wording approved and frozen by Fr John in the article is &amp;quot;The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; You misrepresent what this says, since is refers not only to the ancient patriarchates, but to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Willibrord's continued attempts to edit the language adds NOTHING to the description except redundancy -- patriachates are autocephalous. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Yet Fr. John's exact wording was more precise than your continual edits. &lt;br /&gt;
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:If you intention is to communicate that L'ECOF is not in communion with any autocepahlous ''or'' autonomous Orthodox Church, surely you don't object to this being spelled out explicitly. There are those, like myself, who may not understand the nuance of your wording, which implies a different reality. After all, an The Orthodox Church of France is not currently recognized by nor in communion with any [http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_autocephalous_and_autonomous_churches autonomous or autocephalous church] is not necessarily a &amp;quot;patriachal&amp;quot; church, and some (the OCA) are not recognized by all &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; Yet the OCA does not recognize L'ECOF, either. Is L'ECOF in communion with some Orthodox Church, any Orthodox Church at all? If not, this wording better describes that and should not be changed to something more ambiguous. &lt;br /&gt;
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:Looks like it's time for someone to freeze this section again. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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First, it isn't my language that I'm repeating. Second, how does your edit add ANY information? Is there an Orthodox Church you have in mind that is NOT included in the phrase &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot;? Your language is less precise and less accurate. There are disputes as to what Orthodox Churches are autocephalous, for example. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:13, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: For the last time, not all &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; are patriarchal, nor are all those listed on OrthodoxWiki recognized by &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; (I'm thinking specifically of the OCA.)  &lt;br /&gt;
:As noted, Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; As you note, &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox churches&amp;quot; is not a widely used term; &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; is a more understandable substitute. Thus, my edit more closely reflects his wording and intentions than yours. It should replace yours, both here and in the L'ECOF article, and be frozen.-- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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There is no ambiguity or imprecision in the original wording. The OCA is &amp;quot;in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:24, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:There is greater precision on this language (not to mention an additional link to OrthodoxWiki). It seems your language is antiseptic and intended to introduce ambiguity about L'ECOF's actual canonical situation (namely, that it is in communion with no one). L'ECOF is not, in fact, in communion with anyone, is it? Why the roiling displeasure when this is so noted? &lt;br /&gt;
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:At any rate, this is a matter the administrators will have to settle. --[[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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It's not my language, and it's certainly not intended to introduce ambiguity. The language of &amp;quot;in communion&amp;quot; is imprecise, in that other Churches have certainly communed both lay and clerical members of the Church of France -- with the blessing of hierarchs of those Churches. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:36, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'm not sure how many times this article (and the Orthodox Church of France article) has basically been changed between one edit to the other, but I'm fairly sure it's in the double digits.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Irrespective, perhaps someone would be able to enlighten on why, in an overtly [[OW:MCB|Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias]]ed Orthodox encyclopaedia, it is not possible to say 'presently outside the Orthodox Church'?  It's not as if there is any ambiguity about the status, like there was until recently with ROCOR - this revert war has been between one set of words and the other set, when the point to communicate is that it is currently outside the Church, which can be done without needing to resort to any word above three syllables.  &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 09:42, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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First, we have had many months of peace and stability on these articles. Second, I have yet to see how changing the statement is in any way an improvement. Third, I think Pistevo's comments are unhelpful. What is the point of mentioning &amp;quot;Chalcedonian&amp;quot; when the French Church is clearly Chalcedonian. And I don't I think saying &amp;quot;outside the Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is at all accurate. When &amp;quot;the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; includes Churches and hierarchs who certainly view the Church of France as Orthodox (though irregular due to its current lack of an autocephalous sponsor) and have accepted its ordinations and communed its laity and clerics, then it is simply wrong to suggest it is outside the Orthodox Church. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 10:08, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Article protection==&lt;br /&gt;
Gentlemen, this article has been protected to stop the revert-war that has been ongoing today.  ''Mainstream Orthodox Church'' is the usual, non-controversial term here on the wiki.  This explicitly refers to the [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches]].  It is not controversial to say that a particular group is &amp;quot;not recognized by&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;out of communion with&amp;quot; the churches on that list.&lt;br /&gt;
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I've adjusted the language to what I regard as more precise and less inflammatory.  Though the &amp;quot;is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; language is true, it could at least be seen to imply a semi-papal ecclesiology (i.e., that the ancient patriarchates define what it means to be Orthodox).&lt;br /&gt;
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''Uncanonical'' is not generally a useful term here, since its definition in common usage is all over the map.  What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of ''not recognized by'' or ''out of communion with'').&lt;br /&gt;
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If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:09, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I'm apologize that I've let this go on so long. &lt;br /&gt;
::I agree with Fr. Andrew about the term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; but I'm also concerned about the phrase &amp;quot;Mainstream&amp;quot; (I know we use it in the style manual for our famous NPOV, but I think it fits better there)... If &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is too vague, &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; seems too relativist... On a previous revision of the article I had suggested &amp;quot;not recognized any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I think Fr. Andrew is right in his caution -- it is not simply the antiquity or prestige of these churches that makes them reference points. At the same time, &amp;quot;not currently recognized by nor in communion with any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is certainly written from a &amp;quot;Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias&amp;quot; which is actually fine here. I like Fr. Andrew's sentence: &amp;quot;What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of not recognized by or out of communion with&amp;quot; -- with this, there is no need for additional accusations invective, or high emotions. This is simply a question of fact. With this in mind, I'm going to change &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; back to &amp;quot;any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::If anyone has a better idea of how to work this balance out, let's talk here first. I'll watch the page to keep in the loop. Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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::: &amp;quot;Any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; has problems, too (e.g., the [[Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church]], the [[Macedonian Orthodox Church]], the [[Montenegrin Orthodox Church]], etc.).  There has to be some way to refer to what makes it onto [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches|this list]] which is both descriptive and exclusive.  I prefer ''mainstream'' (linked to the list), since even the OCists often use the term.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:33, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::...why not just say that the group isn't in communion with the Orthodox Church?  Between MCB and the fact that they're not in communion with, well, anyone, this is both accurate and brief.  And, I'm fairly certain that 'autonomous' is superfluous - an autonomous church, in external relations, still under its autocephalous mother church. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 13:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Which brings me back to the original language -- how was referring to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; inadequate? That covers all of the autocephalous and autonomous Churches. It also avoid the less than correct language about &amp;quot;not in communion.&amp;quot; A more descriptive statement would be that it exists in a state of &amp;quot;impaired communion&amp;quot; in that at least some of the other Churches recognize the ordinations of the French Church and have (officially) communed their clerics at the altar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Because Rome is an ancient patriarchate?&lt;br /&gt;
:Who officially communes them?  Recognising the orders is no guarantee - [[Alexis Toth|we recognise(d) Catholic orders]], but that doesn't mean that we're in communion. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:08, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Rome is not &amp;quot;one of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I've personally received communion from the head of one autocephalous Church and concelebrated with and received from the head of an autonomous Church, and been allowed to receive at the altar by the senior bishop of one of the ancient Orthodox patriarchates. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:22, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No.  It's an ancient patriarchate which is outside the Orthodox Church, demonstrating that age and prestige do not denote within-the-Church-or-not.&lt;br /&gt;
:One person's experience would constitute either 'original research' or 'improper sourcing' - and even so, it can be seen as a sequence of isolated cases, rather than acceptance by the Church in question. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:47, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You seem to miss the point of the original wording -- &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; excludes Rome and non-&amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; Orthodox Churches but includes the OCA, etc. I wasn't trying to &amp;quot;source&amp;quot; the article by my own experience; I merely answered your question on this talk page. However, since I have been directly involved with the hierarchs in question, I do think I am in a better position to address the question than someone who has not been. But it is also more than just my experience; when I was given permission to receive at the altar by the primate's chancellor in one jurisdiction, I was told that this was his Church's policy regarding our clergy -- policy, and not an isolated or idiosyncratic event. That same chancellor later offered to receive me into his Church and give me a parish. When the chancellor of another Church here telephoned a patriarchal bishop in Europe to ask about the status of our clergy, he was told &amp;quot;Of course they are Orthodox.&amp;quot; I have not tried to put any of this into the article; I am simply responding to the questions asked.  --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:10, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The point of the original wording (or any wording) is to communicate an idea, but what that wording communicates is that being an ancient patriarchate is the primary measure, when it's clearly not.  Even if it was, it would simply be a case of double-repetition - the aforementioned Orthodox Churches, in this MCB'd encyclopaedia, constitute the Orthodox Church.&lt;br /&gt;
:The point of asking that wasn't to give a bait-and-switch - I was actually asking about any official policies, edicts, proclamations, etc. regarding l'ECOF.  Are there any issued, who from, and what are they? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 17:32, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Not sure where Pistevo's &amp;quot;bait and switch&amp;quot; comes in, but I'm still interested in other ways to phrase this... — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Just trying to make explicit the fact that the question was not asked for disingeneous reasons... &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 03:37, February 16, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Reverts to inaccuracies about ROCOR, Czechs, Poles==&lt;br /&gt;
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Saying Christminster is the same of Mount Royal is incorrect. I have personal emails from Dom James (directing edits to the Christminster website) that explain clearly: Mount Royal still exists, and since its reception in 1962, and the election of the Prior as Abbot Augustine in 1963 - remains as Mount Royal (in Florida since 1993, where the Abbot retired in that year.) Christminster is a daughter house, founded in 1993 with Dom James as the Abbot (he was previously the Prior of Mount Royal.) I think some ROCOR clergy have also made other edits: about the Czech, and Polish Western rite - that were deleted (for which we have evidence from diocesan archives, as well as from our clergy who were there.) The Czech diocese was founded in 1898. Twenty-three years later the Serbians along with Met. Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of ROCOR consecrated St. Gorazd (Pavlik) as bishop for that diocese - which remained Western rite for a few more years. More than 'half a dozen parishes', the whole Diocese of Grodno was established with Bp Alexis consecrated as Bishop of Grodno for the received 'Polish Catholic National Church (not the same as the PNCC.) 'Dwindling' doesn't describe what happened to that body: they, like St. Gorazd, were largely arrested by the Nazis and placed in death camps. According to Fr. Michael Keiser (DME-AOCNA), there still exists one Western Rite community in the Polish Church in Poland. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==Sarum Usages==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not an expert on this topic and do not claim to be, although I have some older and also recent sources dealing with Sarum usage, and am interested in western rites generally, (as well as Eastern and Oriental rites). I also want to avoid generating any heat on the topic.  I also understand there is no definitive Sarum Usage, but a number of usages belonging to that family. So with that in mind, I have made a few changes in the body of the article just now and pray no-one is offended by them.   It appears to me the reports of 2008 that Met Hilarion of ROCOR permitted the use of Fr Adrian Keller's selections and translations of the Sarum usage, alters the general picture somewhat and the article needed minor corrections to reflect that. If any contributor can improve on what I have altered, please do so. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:42, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I added a few more changes on top of your changes. Most of the Sarum usages are essentially the same, generally qualifying only as individual local customs. On paper there is virtually no difference between them, though there are minor points of dispute between users of the rites.  In actual fact, between Holy Name Abbey's and Fr Aidan's usages (both of which ROCOR approved), the differences are primarily stylistic in terms of rendering the English. I'm not an expert, but seeing this use often and using both the Abbey's and Father Aidan's texts, there is nothing in them that is essentially disparate (and I am certain the Cascades Sarum used in Australia is also very similar), save for their translators' views on how to render individual texts. The whole question of &amp;quot;authentic&amp;quot; versus &amp;quot;inauthentic&amp;quot; Sarum was nothing more than politics, when the texts themselves really weren't that different to begin with. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:52, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
The article on Liturgy, as it is now, says &amp;quot;The majority celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow, which is an adaptation of the Communion service from the 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer[4]&amp;quot;.  I earlier questioned the date of 1928.  St Tikhon did his preparatory work in the early 1900s.  Earlier in the main article it says his work was based on the 1898 (USA) Book of Common Prayer which derived from the Scottish Book of Common Prayer, not the English BCP.  The citation given does not seem to support the 1928 date.  In addition, one of the professors at the nearby national Episcopalian seminary (Rev Dr Joseph Frary) tells me the Saint Tikhon liturgy is almost completely the same as the 1898 (USA) BCP. Perhaps another citation could be found justifying the 1928 date, or the date changed to 1898.  Thanks.  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:56, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm not against changing the date to 1898; I am not an expert on the date. But almost every source I read, including the footnote given in that essay, says &amp;quot;1928 Book of common prayer&amp;quot;. I am not against putting it at 1898. I am against taking out a date altogether until we revert to the intellectually dishonest &amp;quot;ancient Orthodox use of the English Church&amp;quot;, which has happened before, resurrecting the whole blasted fight. I have an idea for a fix.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 03:02, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Liturgy of St Tikhon was compiled by Fr Jospeh Angwin and was based on the 1928 BCP, which was the use in his parish, the Church of the Incarnation, Detroit. St Tikhon did not produce a liturgy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:04, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Was that the English 1928 BCP (which parliament rejected)? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:06, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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No, the American BCP. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:10, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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So, strictly speaking, it would be wrong to say the Liturgy of St Tikhon was approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow, but more correct to say the Holy Synod of Moscow approved the concept in principal but the rite now in use is based on the (Protestant Episcopal Church of USA) Book of Common Prayer of 1928? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:13, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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That's right. Moscow gave permission to St Tikhon to produce an Orthodox version of the American BCP, but that never happened. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:16, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Could you or Joseph perhaps rewrite the article to clarify those details please?  There has been widespread confusion over this for many years now.  Thanks  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:21, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, just an fyi...  I found this article on the Wikipedia: [[w:Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)|Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)]]; I do not think I saw a reference to this non-canonical group in this article's section on congregations. Anyways, I was wondering if someone with knowledge of this would be able to clarify who this group is in a succint way and add it to the section on Congregations? Or if it even applies here...(i.e ''Old Catholic'' versus ''Western Rite''??) ?&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 01:54, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: This is one of the [[Independent Orthodox churches]] and as such isn't included in our standard articles.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 12:16, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
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All images should be related to the article's main points. Thus, I deleted the image of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal,&amp;quot; which is not being celebrated anywhere within mainline Orthodoxy. (Except, perhaps, in one man's home prayers?) Fr. Alexander Turner was consequential in establishing many, many WRO congregations and seems a more representative image of Western Rite Orthodoxy (in both theory ''and'' practice). However, I kept a link to the image of the non-canonical Milan Synod's authorization of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; as a footnote, as there had been none.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 12:19, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T12:19:15Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;*[[/Archive 1]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==New Changes==&lt;br /&gt;
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Folks, with the new receptions in ROCOR please understand that the party line vs. facts thing has to stop. Some new FACTS.&lt;br /&gt;
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1) St Hilarion press is not named after Archbishop Hilarion so there is no &amp;quot;different Archbishop Hilarion&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
2) Metropolitan Hilarion (formerly Archbishop of both Sydney and New York) are all the same guy.&lt;br /&gt;
3) He blessed Fr Aidan to use the same text as Milan's Western Archdiocese, largely Fr Aidan's own work.&lt;br /&gt;
4) He blessed Fr David (Pierce, formerly Father Cuthbert) to continue as he was, and he was using Milan's Eastern Archdiocese texts.&lt;br /&gt;
5) That makes the &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; ROCOR texts, in fact, Milan Synod usages. If you can get over jurisdictional bickering and focus on what is liturgically accurate, folks, a lot of pain will be avoided in this transition.&lt;br /&gt;
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Thank you.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:10, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Do you happen to have citations for the ROCOR receptions? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 06:31, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Physically? No, I just have public confirmations of them online.&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk Aidan was received as a hieromonk last week.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxWest/message/18669&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13045&lt;br /&gt;
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Hieromonk David (formerly Fr Cuthbert, which makes no sense, given David was his birthname) was confirmed by Fr Steven Ritter.&lt;br /&gt;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13121&lt;br /&gt;
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I was not pleased with either of these confimations from my perspective, of course, but they did happen. Both were received in by chierothesia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:40, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The Archbishop Hilarion of Texas mentioned on the title page of the Sarum Missal published by St Hilarion Press is NOT the same person as Metropolitan Hilarion of New York (formerly Archbishop Hilarion of Sydney and Australia).  This is a factual point.  The Missal was not published with the authority of ROCOR. Authority for use in ROCOR, if granted, was very much later than original publication of the missal. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 09:41, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Methinks the issue here is of some ambiguous wording:  &amp;quot;In 2008, a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], was blessed to use his own translations of the pre-schism [[Sarum rite]], found in the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', by Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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:: This could be read in (at least) two ways:  1.  +Hilarion did the blessing.  2.  +Hilarion wrote the missal.  I think Joseph is reading it as #1, while Chris is reading it as #2.  Maybe y'all will want to work out some wording that's less ambiguous.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 19:29, October 1, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Splitting up article==&lt;br /&gt;
The article is getting huge, and y'all's good suggestions and plans would seem to make it even bigger.  Perhaps it should be transitioned into a general article with multiple sections, then each section having a &amp;quot;''Main article: [[Foo]]''&amp;quot; included at the top where [[Foo]] becomes the more detailed article on that subject.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 12:55, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Lack of liturgical continuity== &lt;br /&gt;
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Another thing this brings to mind is the note in the article on [[Daniel (Alexandrow) of Erie]] : &amp;quot;Also, simply doing his own extensive research on ancient rites came in useful during the elevation of Metropolitan Philaret in 1964. This was the first time the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia had elected a successor who was not a Metropolitan in episcopal rank, and inasmuch as the remainder bishops were of lesser rank themselves, many were unsure of the elevation in such a situation. However, thanks to the research of Bishop Daniel, who was yet a reader, the Synod of Bishops was able to essentially replicate the office of elevation of a Metropolitan as performed in 15th century Russia.&amp;quot; - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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: I'm also reminded of the restoration of the rite of [[enthronement|enthroning]] a patriarch of Moscow that was enacted when St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] was elected.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:04, November 7, 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Miscategorization of links==&lt;br /&gt;
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The letter of Patriarch Sergius I to Vladimir Lossky is not a 'criticism' of the Western Rite, but rather pro-Western Rite. - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Blogs?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Do we really want to include links to blogs as part of this encyclopedia? Blogs have nothing to do with [[NPOV]], and they often stray far afield from the purported topic. One I glanced at was recommending the writings of William F. Buckley, Jr. -- nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy! --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:31, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: If they're exclusively (or near-exclusively) topical, then linking them is fine.  If not, then no.  If the only thing that distinguishes the weblogs in question is that they're owned by WR people, then that doesn't seem enough to warrant a link.  Individual articles posted there could certainly be linked if they're substantial and contribute significantly to the topic.  There's no reason that the links couldn't be added to [[Online Orthodox Communities]], though.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:38, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: The blogs I linked were three:&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html The Western Rite section of Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog] (the section I linked) consists primarily of historical documents written by such as Fr. Alexander Turner, first Vicar-General of the Antiochian WRV -- precisely the sort of thing that should be linked to this page as a resource.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] is the blog to which our critic refers. Somehow he scrolled two screens down, skipped a photo and news story about the first Continuing Anglican bishop ever to convert to the WRV, and &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; at a sentence in the middle of a post about Western spiritual books, located above several stories concerning objections to the Western Rite and an article written by Fr. Hieromonk (Dom) James Deschene of Christminster Monastery (ROCOR, WR). Further down, he would have found patristic quotations on feast days, Byzantine practices that correlate with the Western Rite, and news about new Western Rite communities entering Oriental Orthodoxy. Our critic &amp;quot;glanced&amp;quot; only a one-sentence aside well down the blog, then hastened here to present it as the only content in the entire blog, which allegedly has &amp;quot;nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy!&amp;quot; How odd.&lt;br /&gt;
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:: **Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] is a source for this OrthodoxWiki webpage and is acknowledged as such. Certainly his valuable blog is on-topic.&lt;br /&gt;
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::As you can see, all are exclusively or near-exclusively topical. As such, I've added them all back to the page under &amp;quot;News and Views.&amp;quot; If the editorial team disagrees, feel free to remove them.&lt;br /&gt;
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::All three blogs are more on-topic for this OrthodoxWiki page than the listservs. This is particularly true of &amp;quot;Occidentalis,&amp;quot; which primarily discusses liturgies not currently practiced anywhere in Orthodoxy (I'm not referencing the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite&amp;quot; here but others besides that not authorized '''anywhere'''), acts as a clearinghouse for inaccurate anti-WRV rumors, and allows vagante Old Catholics to promote their own churches and titles.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Too bad my blog http://orthodox-okie.blogspot.com wasn't restore as well - it also is mostly a Western Rite Orthodox blog, though more towards the ROCOR usage (which might be why it was snubbed?) - [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 15:41, March 7, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Ari, don't imagine slights where there are none (especially during Lent, ''mon frere''). I didn't restore your blog, because occasionally you go 2-3 posts on something unrelated -- and I thought if a detractor was going to go crazy over one stray sentence, perhaps I'd better err on the side of caution. I added your blog to the [[Online Orthodox Communities]]. Feel free to add your blog to the [[Western Rite]] page, too. No offense meant to an outstanding blog. -- '''Willibrord'''&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: That was tongue in cheek. ;) No problem, I've actually thought about separating all the Western Rite Orthodox (and other Orthodox posts) to a separate blog, separate the wheat out from the tares. That might be a more appropriate link. [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 08:21, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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My remarks have been misunderstood and mischaracterized. I didn't say that the blog in question had nothing to do with Western rite Orthodoxy -- I said that the comments about William F. Buckley have nothing to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy. (BTW, I happen to like Mr. Buckley.) And although I didn't see anything outrageous on the website, I have seen other &amp;quot;Orthodox&amp;quot; blogs that do mix in a fair amount of partisan politics, and it's a road I would rather us not go down. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:52, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: With all due respect, I believe my comments were a fair reading of your words above, and your words above were not a fair reading of my blog nor even the post in question, for the reasons I pointed out. But it seems this discussion has run its course. -- '''Willibrord'''.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: As a related issue, it is perhaps best not to be involved in the promotion or lack thereof of one's own material.  Putting up a link is one thing, but if it becomes a contentious issue, it would seem best for the sake of neutrality to let others decide whether one's material is worthy of inclusion.  It's an inherent conflict of interest to do otherwise.  {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:05, March 9, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Some Corrections re France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted some inaccuarate information. (1) The Gallican liturgy was not a usage of the Roman rite. (2) The Gallican rite as restored by Bishop Jean Kovalevsky was almost entirely Western, drawing on various Western missals, sacramentaries, etc. Most of the borrowings from the Byzantine that form part of the ordinary today (which is a small part of the liturgy) were added c. 1960 at the direction of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. (3) Alexis van der Mensbrugghe was not a member of the French Church -- he worked with the French Church and taught at its St Denys Institute while the French Church was still a part of the Moscow Patriarchate. (4) I replaced the decription of the French Church as &amp;quot;in canonical limbo&amp;quot; with &amp;quot;isolation.&amp;quot; The use of the term &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; here is inappropriate. A good source for understanding this common misuse of the word is Fr Alexander Schmemann's article on the situation of the Church in America. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:41, March 2, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reworking ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I have substantially re-worked sections of this article in order to redress perceived (my perception) inadequacies/imbalances and to perhaps bring some sections more up to date&lt;br /&gt;
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I deleted the section headed &amp;quot;criticisms&amp;quot; simply because I see no reason why we should be required to give space to the critics of Western Rite within Orthodoxy.  No one is going to take kindly to my adding a paragraph of criticism to a section of Orthodoxwiki which details the use of Chrysostoma in the diaspora, so I see no reason why we should have a criticism section here.&lt;br /&gt;
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I filled out some of the details of ROCOR's Western Rite activities and made other more minor adjustments.&lt;br /&gt;
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I will be only sporadically available over the next few weeks to defend my changes - so please don't take silence for anything other than the fact that I may not have seen a comment.&lt;br /&gt;
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Suggestion:  Do we need to include the picture of the &amp;quot;circus&amp;quot;.  This is ammunition for the critics of Western Rite - it even causes severe criticism within the ranks of Western Riters.  I see no reason for including this weapon which our detractors can and do use to disparage us.&lt;br /&gt;
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Offieriad-Mynach&lt;br /&gt;
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First of all, I am not sure why the page is closed off.  There are certain numbers of facts that are incorrect. The second largest grouping of Sarum-use parishes in the US is the Milan Synod, an Old Calendarist group.  The growth of the Synod has been a direct result of Orthodox people who have been fed up with the Vicariate's policy.  The Milan Synod's Western rite numbers are larger than that of ROCOR's.  Secondly, the Sarum use in Milan is not significantly different from that of ROCOR.  Even Fr Aidan Keller's work on the Sarum rite is not all that different; and that never was the official use of the New York Archdiocese anyway. -- Suaiden&lt;br /&gt;
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:See the rest of this talk page for why this article was protected - edit-warring, basically, mainly over the l'ECOF.  Of course, this is - as far as I can tell - quite unrelated to your points, so you may want to suggest the change on this page, where it can be incorporated into the article.  That said, I'm going to leave it to others (currently, tiredness is probably not helping my critical judgement) as to where Milan Synod fits into [[OW:MCB]]. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 12:15, April 27, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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And why is the eccleasistical status of the Synod of Milan somewhat down in the artile, while the Orthodox Church of France's was allowed to be placed in the lead section?--[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 18:15, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Not sure exactly what is being referred to...?&lt;br /&gt;
:In any event, I don't see why either should be placed in the lead section - the point of OW is for those classed under MCB (i.e. the 14/15 autocephalous churches), which neither belong to. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 23:00, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Language about the Church of France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The language I used is taken from the article on the Orthodox Church of France and was the result of one of the moderators, Fr John, resolving a dispute. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:31, February 13, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Not exactly. Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] said nothing about &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; but mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; That is broader than merely &amp;quot;the ancient patriachates.&amp;quot; L'ECOF is not in communion with any local Orthodox Church, either; hence, more precise language is needed. (This is, of course, a sanitized way of noting L'ECOF is not in communion with anyone and hence not canonical.) -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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Yes, EXACTLY. I pasted and clipped the sentence from the opening section of the article on the Church of France as Fr John approved it (and froze it). Your use of &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; is not accurate language, nor is &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox Churches&amp;quot; particularly illuminating -- recognized by whom? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 06:11, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: In some universally recognised Orthodox Churches, episcopacies are sold.  By doing this, these churches are &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot;, but are still universally &amp;quot;recognised&amp;quot; churches.  The term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is not congruent with either &amp;quot;generally recognised&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;universally recognised&amp;quot;.  In this context, &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; really is quite unhelpful. chrisg 2008 Feb 15 o2:51 EAST&lt;br /&gt;
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::Fr. John's exact wording is vastly superior to yours -- which again is inexact and misleading. By mentioning only &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates,&amp;quot; you may lead the reader to believe L'ECOF is in communion with some other autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church. You are not. Surely you don't wish to mislead anyone. Hence, clarification is needed -- probably on the L'ECOF page, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
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::&amp;quot;chrisg,&amp;quot; such character assassinations, inaccuracies, and malicious generalizations will not be useful on this site. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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The exat wording approved and frozen by Fr John in the article is &amp;quot;The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; You misrepresent what this says, since is refers not only to the ancient patriarchates, but to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Willibrord's continued attempts to edit the language adds NOTHING to the description except redundancy -- patriachates are autocephalous. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Yet Fr. John's exact wording was more precise than your continual edits. &lt;br /&gt;
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:If you intention is to communicate that L'ECOF is not in communion with any autocepahlous ''or'' autonomous Orthodox Church, surely you don't object to this being spelled out explicitly. There are those, like myself, who may not understand the nuance of your wording, which implies a different reality. After all, an The Orthodox Church of France is not currently recognized by nor in communion with any [http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_autocephalous_and_autonomous_churches autonomous or autocephalous church] is not necessarily a &amp;quot;patriachal&amp;quot; church, and some (the OCA) are not recognized by all &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; Yet the OCA does not recognize L'ECOF, either. Is L'ECOF in communion with some Orthodox Church, any Orthodox Church at all? If not, this wording better describes that and should not be changed to something more ambiguous. &lt;br /&gt;
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:Looks like it's time for someone to freeze this section again. -- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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First, it isn't my language that I'm repeating. Second, how does your edit add ANY information? Is there an Orthodox Church you have in mind that is NOT included in the phrase &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot;? Your language is less precise and less accurate. There are disputes as to what Orthodox Churches are autocephalous, for example. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:13, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: For the last time, not all &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; are patriarchal, nor are all those listed on OrthodoxWiki recognized by &amp;quot;the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; (I'm thinking specifically of the OCA.)  &lt;br /&gt;
:As noted, Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] mentioned &amp;quot;the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches.&amp;quot; As you note, &amp;quot;recognized Orthodox churches&amp;quot; is not a widely used term; &amp;quot;autocephalous and autonomous churches&amp;quot; is a more understandable substitute. Thus, my edit more closely reflects his wording and intentions than yours. It should replace yours, both here and in the L'ECOF article, and be frozen.-- [[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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There is no ambiguity or imprecision in the original wording. The OCA is &amp;quot;in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:24, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:There is greater precision on this language (not to mention an additional link to OrthodoxWiki). It seems your language is antiseptic and intended to introduce ambiguity about L'ECOF's actual canonical situation (namely, that it is in communion with no one). L'ECOF is not, in fact, in communion with anyone, is it? Why the roiling displeasure when this is so noted? &lt;br /&gt;
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:At any rate, this is a matter the administrators will have to settle. --[[User:Willibrord]]&lt;br /&gt;
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It's not my language, and it's certainly not intended to introduce ambiguity. The language of &amp;quot;in communion&amp;quot; is imprecise, in that other Churches have certainly communed both lay and clerical members of the Church of France -- with the blessing of hierarchs of those Churches. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:36, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'm not sure how many times this article (and the Orthodox Church of France article) has basically been changed between one edit to the other, but I'm fairly sure it's in the double digits.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Irrespective, perhaps someone would be able to enlighten on why, in an overtly [[OW:MCB|Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias]]ed Orthodox encyclopaedia, it is not possible to say 'presently outside the Orthodox Church'?  It's not as if there is any ambiguity about the status, like there was until recently with ROCOR - this revert war has been between one set of words and the other set, when the point to communicate is that it is currently outside the Church, which can be done without needing to resort to any word above three syllables.  &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 09:42, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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First, we have had many months of peace and stability on these articles. Second, I have yet to see how changing the statement is in any way an improvement. Third, I think Pistevo's comments are unhelpful. What is the point of mentioning &amp;quot;Chalcedonian&amp;quot; when the French Church is clearly Chalcedonian. And I don't I think saying &amp;quot;outside the Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is at all accurate. When &amp;quot;the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; includes Churches and hierarchs who certainly view the Church of France as Orthodox (though irregular due to its current lack of an autocephalous sponsor) and have accepted its ordinations and communed its laity and clerics, then it is simply wrong to suggest it is outside the Orthodox Church. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 10:08, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Article protection==&lt;br /&gt;
Gentlemen, this article has been protected to stop the revert-war that has been ongoing today.  ''Mainstream Orthodox Church'' is the usual, non-controversial term here on the wiki.  This explicitly refers to the [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches]].  It is not controversial to say that a particular group is &amp;quot;not recognized by&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;out of communion with&amp;quot; the churches on that list.&lt;br /&gt;
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I've adjusted the language to what I regard as more precise and less inflammatory.  Though the &amp;quot;is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; language is true, it could at least be seen to imply a semi-papal ecclesiology (i.e., that the ancient patriarchates define what it means to be Orthodox).&lt;br /&gt;
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''Uncanonical'' is not generally a useful term here, since its definition in common usage is all over the map.  What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of ''not recognized by'' or ''out of communion with'').&lt;br /&gt;
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If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:09, February 14, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I'm apologize that I've let this go on so long. &lt;br /&gt;
::I agree with Fr. Andrew about the term &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; but I'm also concerned about the phrase &amp;quot;Mainstream&amp;quot; (I know we use it in the style manual for our famous NPOV, but I think it fits better there)... If &amp;quot;uncanonical&amp;quot; is too vague, &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; seems too relativist... On a previous revision of the article I had suggested &amp;quot;not recognized any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I think Fr. Andrew is right in his caution -- it is not simply the antiquity or prestige of these churches that makes them reference points. At the same time, &amp;quot;not currently recognized by nor in communion with any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; is certainly written from a &amp;quot;Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias&amp;quot; which is actually fine here. I like Fr. Andrew's sentence: &amp;quot;What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of not recognized by or out of communion with&amp;quot; -- with this, there is no need for additional accusations invective, or high emotions. This is simply a question of fact. With this in mind, I'm going to change &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; back to &amp;quot;any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::If anyone has a better idea of how to work this balance out, let's talk here first. I'll watch the page to keep in the loop. Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: &amp;quot;Any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church&amp;quot; has problems, too (e.g., the [[Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church]], the [[Macedonian Orthodox Church]], the [[Montenegrin Orthodox Church]], etc.).  There has to be some way to refer to what makes it onto [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches|this list]] which is both descriptive and exclusive.  I prefer ''mainstream'' (linked to the list), since even the OCists often use the term.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:33, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::...why not just say that the group isn't in communion with the Orthodox Church?  Between MCB and the fact that they're not in communion with, well, anyone, this is both accurate and brief.  And, I'm fairly certain that 'autonomous' is superfluous - an autonomous church, in external relations, still under its autocephalous mother church. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 13:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Which brings me back to the original language -- how was referring to &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; inadequate? That covers all of the autocephalous and autonomous Churches. It also avoid the less than correct language about &amp;quot;not in communion.&amp;quot; A more descriptive statement would be that it exists in a state of &amp;quot;impaired communion&amp;quot; in that at least some of the other Churches recognize the ordinations of the French Church and have (officially) communed their clerics at the altar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Because Rome is an ancient patriarchate?&lt;br /&gt;
:Who officially communes them?  Recognising the orders is no guarantee - [[Alexis Toth|we recognise(d) Catholic orders]], but that doesn't mean that we're in communion. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:08, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rome is not &amp;quot;one of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates.&amp;quot; I've personally received communion from the head of one autocephalous Church and concelebrated with and received from the head of an autonomous Church, and been allowed to receive at the altar by the senior bishop of one of the ancient Orthodox patriarchates. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:22, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No.  It's an ancient patriarchate which is outside the Orthodox Church, demonstrating that age and prestige do not denote within-the-Church-or-not.&lt;br /&gt;
:One person's experience would constitute either 'original research' or 'improper sourcing' - and even so, it can be seen as a sequence of isolated cases, rather than acceptance by the Church in question. &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 16:47, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You seem to miss the point of the original wording -- &amp;quot;any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates&amp;quot; excludes Rome and non-&amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; Orthodox Churches but includes the OCA, etc. I wasn't trying to &amp;quot;source&amp;quot; the article by my own experience; I merely answered your question on this talk page. However, since I have been directly involved with the hierarchs in question, I do think I am in a better position to address the question than someone who has not been. But it is also more than just my experience; when I was given permission to receive at the altar by the primate's chancellor in one jurisdiction, I was told that this was his Church's policy regarding our clergy -- policy, and not an isolated or idiosyncratic event. That same chancellor later offered to receive me into his Church and give me a parish. When the chancellor of another Church here telephoned a patriarchal bishop in Europe to ask about the status of our clergy, he was told &amp;quot;Of course they are Orthodox.&amp;quot; I have not tried to put any of this into the article; I am simply responding to the questions asked.  --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:10, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The point of the original wording (or any wording) is to communicate an idea, but what that wording communicates is that being an ancient patriarchate is the primary measure, when it's clearly not.  Even if it was, it would simply be a case of double-repetition - the aforementioned Orthodox Churches, in this MCB'd encyclopaedia, constitute the Orthodox Church.&lt;br /&gt;
:The point of asking that wasn't to give a bait-and-switch - I was actually asking about any official policies, edicts, proclamations, etc. regarding l'ECOF.  Are there any issued, who from, and what are they? &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 17:32, February 15, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Not sure where Pistevo's &amp;quot;bait and switch&amp;quot; comes in, but I'm still interested in other ways to phrase this... — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Just trying to make explicit the fact that the question was not asked for disingeneous reasons... &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 03:37, February 16, 2008 (PST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Reverts to inaccuracies about ROCOR, Czechs, Poles==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Saying Christminster is the same of Mount Royal is incorrect. I have personal emails from Dom James (directing edits to the Christminster website) that explain clearly: Mount Royal still exists, and since its reception in 1962, and the election of the Prior as Abbot Augustine in 1963 - remains as Mount Royal (in Florida since 1993, where the Abbot retired in that year.) Christminster is a daughter house, founded in 1993 with Dom James as the Abbot (he was previously the Prior of Mount Royal.) I think some ROCOR clergy have also made other edits: about the Czech, and Polish Western rite - that were deleted (for which we have evidence from diocesan archives, as well as from our clergy who were there.) The Czech diocese was founded in 1898. Twenty-three years later the Serbians along with Met. Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of ROCOR consecrated St. Gorazd (Pavlik) as bishop for that diocese - which remained Western rite for a few more years. More than 'half a dozen parishes', the whole Diocese of Grodno was established with Bp Alexis consecrated as Bishop of Grodno for the received 'Polish Catholic National Church (not the same as the PNCC.) 'Dwindling' doesn't describe what happened to that body: they, like St. Gorazd, were largely arrested by the Nazis and placed in death camps. According to Fr. Michael Keiser (DME-AOCNA), there still exists one Western Rite community in the Polish Church in Poland. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sarum Usages==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am not an expert on this topic and do not claim to be, although I have some older and also recent sources dealing with Sarum usage, and am interested in western rites generally, (as well as Eastern and Oriental rites). I also want to avoid generating any heat on the topic.  I also understand there is no definitive Sarum Usage, but a number of usages belonging to that family. So with that in mind, I have made a few changes in the body of the article just now and pray no-one is offended by them.   It appears to me the reports of 2008 that Met Hilarion of ROCOR permitted the use of Fr Adrian Keller's selections and translations of the Sarum usage, alters the general picture somewhat and the article needed minor corrections to reflect that. If any contributor can improve on what I have altered, please do so. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:42, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I added a few more changes on top of your changes. Most of the Sarum usages are essentially the same, generally qualifying only as individual local customs. On paper there is virtually no difference between them, though there are minor points of dispute between users of the rites.  In actual fact, between Holy Name Abbey's and Fr Aidan's usages (both of which ROCOR approved), the differences are primarily stylistic in terms of rendering the English. I'm not an expert, but seeing this use often and using both the Abbey's and Father Aidan's texts, there is nothing in them that is essentially disparate (and I am certain the Cascades Sarum used in Australia is also very similar), save for their translators' views on how to render individual texts. The whole question of &amp;quot;authentic&amp;quot; versus &amp;quot;inauthentic&amp;quot; Sarum was nothing more than politics, when the texts themselves really weren't that different to begin with. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:52, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
The article on Liturgy, as it is now, says &amp;quot;The majority celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow, which is an adaptation of the Communion service from the 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer[4]&amp;quot;.  I earlier questioned the date of 1928.  St Tikhon did his preparatory work in the early 1900s.  Earlier in the main article it says his work was based on the 1898 (USA) Book of Common Prayer which derived from the Scottish Book of Common Prayer, not the English BCP.  The citation given does not seem to support the 1928 date.  In addition, one of the professors at the nearby national Episcopalian seminary (Rev Dr Joseph Frary) tells me the Saint Tikhon liturgy is almost completely the same as the 1898 (USA) BCP. Perhaps another citation could be found justifying the 1928 date, or the date changed to 1898.  Thanks.  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:56, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm not against changing the date to 1898; I am not an expert on the date. But almost every source I read, including the footnote given in that essay, says &amp;quot;1928 Book of common prayer&amp;quot;. I am not against putting it at 1898. I am against taking out a date altogether until we revert to the intellectually dishonest &amp;quot;ancient Orthodox use of the English Church&amp;quot;, which has happened before, resurrecting the whole blasted fight. I have an idea for a fix.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 03:02, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Liturgy of St Tikhon was compiled by Fr Jospeh Angwin and was based on the 1928 BCP, which was the use in his parish, the Church of the Incarnation, Detroit. St Tikhon did not produce a liturgy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:04, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Was that the English 1928 BCP (which parliament rejected)? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:06, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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No, the American BCP. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:10, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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So, strictly speaking, it would be wrong to say the Liturgy of St Tikhon was approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow, but more correct to say the Holy Synod of Moscow approved the concept in principal but the rite now in use is based on the (Protestant Episcopal Church of USA) Book of Common Prayer of 1928? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:13, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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That's right. Moscow gave permission to St Tikhon to produce an Orthodox version of the American BCP, but that never happened. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:16, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Could you or Joseph perhaps rewrite the article to clarify those details please?  There has been widespread confusion over this for many years now.  Thanks  [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:21, January 26, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, just an fyi...  I found this article on the Wikipedia: [[w:Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)|Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)]]; I do not think I saw a reference to this non-canonical group in this article's section on congregations. Anyways, I was wondering if someone with knowledge of this would be able to clarify who this group is in a succint way and add it to the section on Congregations? Or if it even applies here...(i.e ''Old Catholic'' versus ''Western Rite''??) ?&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 01:54, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: This is one of the [[Independent Orthodox churches]] and as such isn't included in our standard articles.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 12:16, February 6, 2009 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Images under &amp;quot;Congregations&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
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All images should be related to the article's main points. Thus, I deleted the image of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal,&amp;quot; which is not being celebrated anywhere within mainline Orthodoxy. (Except, perhaps, in one man's home prayers?) Fr. Alexander Turner was consequential in establishing many, many WRO congregations and seems a more representative image of Western Rite Orthodoxy (in both theory or practice). However, I kept a link to the image of the non-canonical Milan Synod's authorization of the &amp;quot;Old Sarum Rite Missal&amp;quot; as a footnote, as there had been none.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 12:19, February 15, 2009 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T12:13:34Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold in common the full Orthodox faith with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]], and at present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
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The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
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In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
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However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
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One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.  &lt;br /&gt;
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===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
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There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
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====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
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Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
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The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
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====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Congregations ==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries, one located in Canada, on in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Rite]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite.  Some have stated on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion also gave a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), a blessing to use his own translation of the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.[http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Image:SarumKeller04.jpg]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should also be noted that there are a number of groups who follow various Western rites, and call themselves Orthodox but are not part of or in communion with the [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by or in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]] (different from the version of the [[Sarum Rite]] used within ROCOR before 2008.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Anthony_(Khrapovitsky)_of_Kiev</id>
		<title>Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of Kiev</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Anthony_(Khrapovitsky)_of_Kiev"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T06:11:55Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;His Eminence [[Metropolitan]] '''Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of Kiev and Galicia''' was a famous 20th century [[hierarch]] of the Russian Orthodox Church, a renowned author and theologian and, upon emigrating from Russia, the founding First Hierarch of the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:10234.jpg|right|frame|Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of Kiev and Galicia]]&lt;br /&gt;
==Early life and education==&lt;br /&gt;
Metropolitan Anthony was born Alexei Pavlovich Khrapovitsky on [[March 17]], 1863, in Vatagino village of Kresteski district of Novgorod province, Russia. His parents were members of the Russian nobility. He was educated at St Petersburg, Russia, where he finished the 5th Classical Gymnasia with a gold medal. He owes the beginnings of his religious education to his mother and the influence of [[Fyodor Dostoevsky]], the reading of [[Church Fathers]] and the [[hagiography|Lives of Saints]] as well as interest in the ideas of the [[slavophile]] movement. In his young years, he was interested by the work of V. S. [[Solovyev]], whom he later criticized for pro-[[Roman Catholic]] leanings. A final important influence was meeting St [[Nicholas of Japan|Nicholas]], the [[enlightener]] of Japan.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1881, despite the opposition of his father, Alexei enrolled in the St Petersburg Theological Academy, where he became friends with M. M. Gribanovsky, the future [[Bishop]] of Tauria, who was the first of the academy students to become a [[monasticism|monastic]] after a 20-year hiatus in [[tonsure|tonsurings]]. This friendship strengthened Alexei's desire to serve the Church as a learned [[monk]]. In his third year, he worked on his master's dissertation &amp;quot;Psychological data in favour of free will and moral responsibility&amp;quot; with the oversight of A. Ye. Svetilin.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Before graduating, Alexei was tonsured on [[May 18]], 1885, with the name of Anthony. That same year, he finished at the Academy and received his diploma. On [[June 12]], he was [[ordination|ordained]] [[hierodeacon]] and on [[September 29]], [[hieromonk]]. He then remained at the Academy as part of the teaching staff. In 1886-1887, he was appointed to teach homiletics, [[liturgics]], and [[canon law]] at the Kholm Theological Seminary. In 1887-1889, Hieromonk Anthony was an instructor at the Academy in the department of [[Old Testament]] Studies and beginning in 1889 served as the Academy's inspector. A result of this work was his 1890 book &amp;quot;An Exegesis of the Book of the Prophet Micah.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1888, as a result of reworking his dissertation, Hieromonk Anthony was awarded the degree of Master of Theology.  In 1888 and 1889, he taught a course on introduction to theological sciences. At around the same time, he became friends with St [[John of Kronstadt]]. In 1890, he was appointed as [[rector]] of the St Petersburg Theological Academy and raised to the rank of [[archimandrite]]. In 1891, he was appointed rector of the [[Moscow Theological Academy and Seminary|Moscow Theological Academy]]. This time marked his blossoming as a theologian, with the publication of his work &amp;quot;The moral idea of the [[dogma]] of the Holy Trinity&amp;quot; (report at the festivities marking the 500th anniversary of the repose of St [[Sergius of Radonezh]]). In 1893-1894, Archimandrite Anthony became friends with Archimandrite [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow|Sergius (Stragorodsky)]], the future Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia. Archimandrite Anthony persuaded Archimandrite Sergius to publish his master's dissertation, &amp;quot;The Orthodox Teaching on Salvation.&amp;quot; He also met L. N. Tolstoy, whom he frequently attempted to bring back into the Church by critiquing his religious and philosophical ideas.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
His position on supporting monastic tonsure for academy graduates put Archimandrite Anthony into conflict with Metropolitan Sergius (Lyapidevsky) of Moscow. The conflict resulted in Archimandrite Anthony's transfer to the post of rector of the [[Kazan Theological Academy]] in 1895. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Episcopacy==&lt;br /&gt;
On [[September 7]], 1897, Archimandrite Anthony was [[consecration of a bishop|consecrated]] Bishop of Cheboksary, [[auxiliary bishop|vicar]] of the Kazan [[diocese]] (since [[March 1]], 1899, Bishop of Chistopol', first vicar of the Kazan diocese). On [[July 14]], 1900, he was transferred to Ufa and became Bishop of Ufa and Menzelinsk. Because many residents of the Ufa province were [[Islam|Muslim]], Bishop Anthony worked on [[missionary]] efforts in his diocese.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On [[April 22]], 1902, Bishop Anthony was appointed to the Volyn and Zhytomyr [[cathedra]], the largest diocese of the Russian Church at that time. The new energetic bishop worked to restore canonical order in the diocese, ending simony and bribery, promoting liturgical order and love toward the flock.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1907, Bishop Anthony headed a committee examining the [[Kiev Theological Academy]]. The committee's findings were unpopular with academy staff, leading to Bishop Anthony's publication of &amp;quot;The Truth about the Kiev Theological Academy&amp;quot; and the resignation of its rector, Bishop [[Platon (Rozhdestvensky) of New York|Platon (Rozhdestvesky)]], the future head of the [[Orthodox Church in America|American Metropolia]]. Many believe that this incident led to the subsequent antagonism among the emigré bishops, which resulted in the [[ROCOR and OCA|split]] between the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) and the [[Orthodox Church in America]] (OCA).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1906-1907, Bishop Anthony was member of the State Council and in 1912-1916 of the [[Holy Synod]]. He worked on the preparation for a Local Council of the Russian Church; he responded to 1905 questionnaire of Russian bishops by calling for the restoration of the patriarchy and the reform of theological education and other reforms in Church administration. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By the [[ukaz|ukase]] of the Synod on [[May 19]], 1914, Bishop Anthony was appointed to the Kharkiv and Aktyr cathedra. After the February 1917 Revolution, he was forced to ask for retirement because of poor relations with the new authorities in his area and the discontent of certain members of his [[clergy]]. On [[May 1]], 1917, he was retired and assigned to the [[Valaam Monastery]], where he wrote his book &amp;quot;The Doctrine of Redemption,&amp;quot; which later caused many arguments among Orthodox theologians. In August of 1917 he was again elected Archbishop of Kharkiv and Akhtyr by the Diocesan council of Kharkiv.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1917-1918, he was a member of the [[All-Russian Church Council of 1917-1918|Local Council of the Russian Church]], where he was a staunch supporter of restoring the patriarchy. His candidacy received the largest number of votes&amp;amp;mdash;159&amp;amp;mdash;but on [[November 5]], 1918, [[Patriarch]] St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] was elected by lot. On [[November 28]], Archbishop Anthony was raised to the rank of metropolitan and on [[December 7]] elected a member of the Holy Synod headed by Patriarch Tikhon.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In January 1918, Metropolitan Anthony was present at the All-Ukrainian Church Council in Kiev. He then fled the city before the Bolshevik invasion. Following the killing of New [[Hieromartyr]] St. [[Vladimir (Bogoyavlensky) of Kiev and Gallich|Vladimir (Bogoyavlesky) of Kiev]], Metropolitan Anthony was elected to the Kiev cathedra, and returned when the city was occupied by the Germans. However, his election was not approved by the authorities because of his opposition to Ukrainian [[autocephaly]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In December 1918, together with Archbishop Eulogius of Volyn, he was arrested by the Symon Petliura government. The two hierarchs were held at the [[Uniate]] [[monastery]] in Buchacha. In the spring of 1919, when Buchacha was taken by Polish forces, they were transferred to the vicinity of Krakow. In the summer of 1919 they were freed through the work of the French diplomatic mission. Metropolitan Anthony lived in L'viv. In September 1919, he left for Kuban, then returned to Kiev, which was held by White forces of General Denikin. After Kiev was retaken by Bolsheviks in November, he left for Yekaterinodar, where he was elected as president of the Temporary Higher Church Authority of South-East Russia. After the defeat of the Denikin army, he left for Greece, where he received the support of Archbishop [[Meletius IV (Metaxakis) of Constantinople|Meletius (Metaxakis)]] of Athens. In September 1920, he returned to Crimea, which was controlled by General Wrangel. After the latter's defeat in November, he left Russia for the last time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Between November 1920 and February 1921, Metropolitan Anthony was in [[Constantinople]]. At first he decided that the Temporary Authority should be abolished and pastoral care for displaced Russians handed over to other local churches. However, after learning of the decision of General Wrangel to retain his army for further battle with the Bolsheviks, Metropolitan Anthony decided to keep the Church organization abroad. The Temporary Authority met on [[November 19]], 1920, aboard the ship &amp;quot;Great Prince Alexader Mikhailovich,&amp;quot; presided over by Metropolitan Anthony. He and Bishop [[Benjamin (Fedchenko)]] were appointed to examine the canonicity of the organization. On [[December 2]], 1920, they received permission from Metropolitan Dorotheos of Prussia, [[Locum Tenens]] of the [[Ecumenical Patriarchate]], to establish &amp;quot;for the purpose of the service of the population ... and to oversee the ecclesiastic life of Russian colonies in Orthodox countries a temporary committee (epitropia) under the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarchate&amp;quot;; the committee was called the Temporary Higher Church Administration Abroad (THCAA). In February 1921, at the invitation of [[Patriarch]] Dimitry of Serbia, the THCAA relocated to Serbia, where, on [[August 31]], 1921, the Council of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church decided to take the organization under its protection as an independent jurisdiction for displaced Russians.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With the agreement of Patriarch Dimitry, the &amp;quot;General assembly of representatives of the Russian Church abroad&amp;quot; took place between [[November 21]] and December 2, 1921, in Sremsky Karlovtsi, Serbia. It was later renamed the [[First All-Diaspora Council]] and was presided over by Metropolitan Anthony. The Council established the &amp;quot;Supreme Ecclesiastic Administration Abroad&amp;quot; (SEAA), composed of a patriarchal Locum Tenens, a Synod of Bishops, and a Church Council. The Council decided to appoint Metropolitan Anthony the Locum Tenens, but he declined to accept the position without permission from Moscow and instead called himself the President of the SEAA. However, an Ukase of Patriarch St. Tikhon of Moscow, dated [[May 5]], 1922, abolished the SEAA and declared the political decisions of the Karlovtsy Council as not reflecting the postion of the Russian Church. Meeting in Sremsky Karlovtsy on [[September 2]], 1922, the Council of Bishops agreed to abolish the SEAA, in its place forming the Temporary Holy Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia with Metropolitan Anthony as its head by virtue of seniority. The Synod exercised direct authority over Russian [[parish]]es in the Balkans, the Middle East, and the Far East. In North America, however, a conflict erupted with those who did not recognize the authority of the Synod, led by Metropolitan [[Platon (Rozhdestvensky) of New York|Platon (Rozhdestvensky)]]; this group formed the American Metropolia, the predecessor to the OCA. Likewise, in Western Europe, Metropolitan [[Eulogius (Georgievsky) of Paris|Eulogius (Georgievsky)]] also did not recognize anything more than &amp;quot;a moral authority&amp;quot; of the Synod. Metropolitan Eulogius later broke off and joined the Ecumenical Patriarchate, forming the [[Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe]], known colloquially as the ''Rue Daru''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1925, at the invitation of Randell Davidson, [[Archbishop of Canterbury]], Metropolitan Anthony participated in festivities in London marking the 1600th anniversary of the [[First Ecumenical Council]]. In October of 1925, at the invitation of Romanian hierarchs, he participated in the enthronement of Patriarch [[Miron (Cristea) of Romania]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Metropolitan Anthony presided over another meeting of the Council of Bishops of ROCOR in June 1926. The bishops decided to accept Metropolitan [[Peter (Polyansky) of Krutitsa]] as the lawful Locum Tenens following the repose of St. Tikhon. The Council once again called for Metropolitans Platon and Eulogius to accept its [[jurisdiction]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On [[September 9]], 1927, the Council of Bishops of the ROCOR, presided over by Metropolitan Anthony, decreed a break of communion with ecclesiastic authorities in Moscow after categorically rejecting a demand by Metropolitan Sergius (Stragorodsky) of Nizhny Novgorod, who was acting as Locum Tenens, to declare loyalty to the Soviet authorities. Metropolitan Sergius responded in 1928 by decreeing that Metropolitan Eulogius had canonical authority in Western Europe and that all actions of the Karlovtsy Synod were uncanonical. Then, on [[June 22]], 1934, Metropolitan Sergius and his Synod passed judgment on Metropolitan Anthony and his Synod, declaring them to be under suspension. Metropolitan Anthony refused to recognize this decision, claiming that it was made under political pressure from Soviet authorities and that Metropolitan Sergius had illegally usurped the position of Locum Tenens. In this, he received the support of the Patriarch [[Varnava (Rosic) of Serbia|Varnava of Serbia]], who continued to maintain communion with the ROCOR Synod. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
During the course of his time abroad, Metropolitan Anthony continued to retain the title of Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia, an action recognized by Metropolitan Peter (Polyansky) of Krutitsa, who refused pressure from Soviet authorities to fill the vacant Kiev cathedra. In March 1931, the Synod of Bishops awarded him the title of &amp;quot;Beatitude.&amp;quot; In August 1932, Metropolitan Anthony proposed the election of a deputy president. The Bishops elected Archbishop [[Anastasy (Gribanovsky) of Kishinev]], who was elevated to the rank of metropolitan in 1935. In 1935, the Council of Bishops of ROCOR, under the leadership of Metropolitan Anthony, condemned as heretical the teaching of Archpriest [[Sergius Bulgakov]] about Sophia, the Wisdom of God.  This furthered the antagonism between ROCOR and the Western European Exarchate, where Father Sergius worked at the [[St. Sergius Orthodox Theological Institute (Paris, France)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Metropolitan Anthony reposed on [[August 10]], 1936, in Sremsky Karlovtsi, Serbia, and was buried in Belgrade at the Iveron Chapel in the Russian cemetery. Patriarch Varnava officiated at the [[Divine Liturgy]], Panikhida and burial services.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Theological views ==&lt;br /&gt;
Metropolitan Anthony was a remarkable writer, author of many works in apologetics, dogmatic, pastoral and moral theology, hermeneutics, canon law and other disciplines. His ecclesiological opinions were influenced by A. S. [[Khomiakov]]; from Khomiakov's view of the dogma of One Church, Metropolitan Anthony concluded that all [[heterodox]] churches were not part of the Church. He allowed the reception of converts through [[confession]] and [[chrismation]] strictly on the grounds of [[economy]]. Yet he taught that Orthodox bishops could receive Anglican clergy of that time merely by penance [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/01/why-anglicans-could-have-been-received.html &amp;quot;in existing orders.&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was opposed to Latin influence on the Church, and felt the Greater and Lesser Catechisms of the seventeenth century are &amp;quot;only by a misapprehension are called Orthodox.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In his [[soteriology|sotereological]] conceptions, Metropolitan Anthony held that Orthodox dogmatic views must be entirely rid of the idea of [[substitutional atonement]] of [[Anselm of Canterbury]], which was popular in theological schools. Metropolitan Anthony wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We must think that during that night at [[Gethsemane]], the thoughts and feelings of the Godman encompassed all fallen men in their many billions, and wept with loving grief for all of them individually, which, of course, was only possible to the Divine, all-knowing heart. This was our atonement ... We are sure that the terrible sufferings of the Saviour at Gethsemane took place while beholding the sinful life and sinful nature of all human generations and that the words of the Lord &amp;quot;Let this cup pass from me&amp;quot; are not pointed to his upcoming [[Crucifixion]] and death, but to this, completely depressing to Him, feeling of profound grief for the sinful human race so beloved by Him.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thus Metropolitan Anthony considered not [[Golgotha]], but the sufferings in Gethsemane, as central to the Savior's feat of redemption. The bodily sufferings and death on the Cross were necessary so that the faithful would acknowledge the degree of His suffering. This view received criticism from some theologians, including [[John Meyendorff]] and [[Georges Florovsky]], with some going as far as to accuse Metropolitan Anthony of [[Pelagianism]]. Metropolitan Anthony wrote these views in prison, and when they were criticized, he withdrew them. [http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/qa3.htm] It is important to note that Metropolitan Anthony did not pioneer this theological view: it appeared in Russian theology in the 19th century as an attempt to counteract Anselmian atonement. Later theologians claimed that Metropolitan Anthony's views were completely Orthodox, but that the way in which he expressed them led some to misinterpret his teaching.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{start box}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=&amp;amp;mdash;|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Bishop of Cheboksary|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1897-1899|&lt;br /&gt;
after=&amp;amp;mdash;}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=&amp;amp;mdash;|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Bishop of Chistopol'|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1899-1900|&lt;br /&gt;
after=&amp;amp;mdash;}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=?|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Bishop of Ufa and Menzelinsk|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1900-1902|&lt;br /&gt;
after=?}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=?|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Bishop of Volyn' and Zhitomir|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1902-1914|&lt;br /&gt;
after=?}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=?|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Archbishop of Khar'kov and Aktyr|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1914-1918|&lt;br /&gt;
after=?}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=St. [[Vladimir (Bogoyavlensky) of Kiev and Gallich|Vladimir (Bogoyavlensky)]]|&lt;br /&gt;
title=[[List of Metropolitans of Kiev|Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia]]|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1918-1919*|&lt;br /&gt;
after=[[Michael (Yermakov) of Grodno|Michael (Yermakov)]]&amp;lt;BR&amp;gt;Administrator}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=&amp;amp;mdash;|&lt;br /&gt;
title=First Hierarch of ROCOR|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1922-1936|&lt;br /&gt;
after=[[Anastasy (Gribanovsky) of Kishinev|Anastasy (Gribanovsky)]]}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{end box}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[ROCOR and OCA]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Writings ==&lt;br /&gt;
* Selected Theological Works of Blessed Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky), translated by Tatiana Pavlova. [http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/mitrop_antonij_hrapovitski_1_e.htm  Part I] and [http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/mitrop_antonij_hrapovitski_2_e.htm Part II]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enep_1922.html Paschal Epistle, 1922]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/khrapovitsky_orders1927.html Why Anglican Clergy Could be Received in their Orders]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enep_manthonypx1935.html Met. Anthony's Final Nativity Epistle, 1935]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.sedmitza.ru/index.html?sid=77&amp;amp;did=37614&amp;amp;p_comment=belief Mitropolit Antonii (Khrapovitsky), Pravoslavnaya Entsiklopediya]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/metantny.htm Orthodox Holiness:  Metropolitan Anthony of Kiev and Galicia]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Bishops]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:First Hierarchs of the ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Modern Writers]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Anthony_(Khrapovitsky)_of_Kiev</id>
		<title>Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of Kiev</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Anthony_(Khrapovitsky)_of_Kiev"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T05:29:05Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Theological views */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;His Eminence [[Metropolitan]] '''Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of Kiev and Galicia''' was a famous 20th century [[hierarch]] of the Russian Orthodox Church, a renowned author and theologian and, upon emigrating from Russia, the founding First Hierarch of the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:10234.jpg|right|frame|Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of Kiev and Galicia]]&lt;br /&gt;
==Early life and education==&lt;br /&gt;
Metropolitan Anthony was born Alexei Pavlovich Khrapovitsky on [[March 17]], 1863, in Vatagino village of Kresteski district of Novgorod province, Russia. His parents were members of the Russian nobility. He was educated at St Petersburg, Russia, where he finished the 5th Classical Gymnasia with a gold medal. He owes the beginnings of his religious education to his mother and the influence of [[Fyodor Dostoevsky]], the reading of [[Church Fathers]] and the [[hagiography|Lives of Saints]] as well as interest in the ideas of the [[slavophile]] movement. In his young years, he was interested by the work of V. S. [[Solovyev]], whom he later criticized for pro-[[Roman Catholic]] leanings. A final important influence was meeting St [[Nicholas of Japan|Nicholas]], the [[enlightener]] of Japan.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1881, despite the opposition of his father, Alexei enrolled in the St Petersburg Theological Academy, where he became friends with M. M. Gribanovsky, the future [[Bishop]] of Tauria, who was the first of the academy students to become a [[monasticism|monastic]] after a 20-year hiatus in [[tonsure|tonsurings]]. This friendship strengthened Alexei's desire to serve the Church as a learned [[monk]]. In his third year, he worked on his master's dissertation &amp;quot;Psychological data in favour of free will and moral responsibility&amp;quot; with the oversight of A. Ye. Svetilin.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Before graduating, Alexei was tonsured on [[May 18]], 1885, with the name of Anthony. That same year, he finished at the Academy and received his diploma. On [[June 12]], he was [[ordination|ordained]] [[hierodeacon]] and on [[September 29]], [[hieromonk]]. He then remained at the Academy as part of the teaching staff. In 1886-1887, he was appointed to teach homiletics, [[liturgics]], and [[canon law]] at the Kholm Theological Seminary. In 1887-1889, Hieromonk Anthony was an instructor at the Academy in the department of [[Old Testament]] Studies and beginning in 1889 served as the Academy's inspector. A result of this work was his 1890 book &amp;quot;An Exegesis of the Book of the Prophet Micah.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1888, as a result of reworking his dissertation, Hieromonk Anthony was awarded the degree of Master of Theology.  In 1888 and 1889, he taught a course on introduction to theological sciences. At around the same time, he became friends with St [[John of Kronstadt]]. In 1890, he was appointed as [[rector]] of the St Petersburg Theological Academy and raised to the rank of [[archimandrite]]. In 1891, he was appointed rector of the [[Moscow Theological Academy and Seminary|Moscow Theological Academy]]. This time marked his blossoming as a theologian, with the publication of his work &amp;quot;The moral idea of the [[dogma]] of the Holy Trinity&amp;quot; (report at the festivities marking the 500th anniversary of the repose of St [[Sergius of Radonezh]]). In 1893-1894, Archimandrite Anthony became friends with Archimandrite [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow|Sergius (Stragorodsky)]], the future Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia. Archimandrite Anthony persuaded Archimandrite Sergius to publish his master's dissertation, &amp;quot;The Orthodox Teaching on Salvation.&amp;quot; He also met L. N. Tolstoy, whom he frequently attempted to bring back into the Church by critiquing his religious and philosophical ideas.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
His position on supporting monastic tonsure for academy graduates put Archimandrite Anthony into conflict with Metropolitan Sergius (Lyapidevsky) of Moscow. The conflict resulted in Archimandrite Anthony's transfer to the post of rector of the [[Kazan Theological Academy]] in 1895. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Episcopacy==&lt;br /&gt;
On [[September 7]], 1897, Archimandrite Anthony was [[consecration of a bishop|consecrated]] Bishop of Cheboksary, [[auxiliary bishop|vicar]] of the Kazan [[diocese]] (since [[March 1]], 1899, Bishop of Chistopol', first vicar of the Kazan diocese). On [[July 14]], 1900, he was transferred to Ufa and became Bishop of Ufa and Menzelinsk. Because many residents of the Ufa province were [[Islam|Muslim]], Bishop Anthony worked on [[missionary]] efforts in his diocese.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On [[April 22]], 1902, Bishop Anthony was appointed to the Volyn and Zhytomyr [[cathedra]], the largest diocese of the Russian Church at that time. The new energetic bishop worked to restore canonical order in the diocese, ending simony and bribery, promoting liturgical order and love toward the flock.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1907, Bishop Anthony headed a committee examining the [[Kiev Theological Academy]]. The committee's findings were unpopular with academy staff, leading to Bishop Anthony's publication of &amp;quot;The Truth about the Kiev Theological Academy&amp;quot; and the resignation of its rector, Bishop [[Platon (Rozhdestvensky) of New York|Platon (Rozhdestvesky)]], the future head of the [[Orthodox Church in America|American Metropolia]]. Many believe that this incident led to the subsequent antagonism among the emigré bishops, which resulted in the [[ROCOR and OCA|split]] between the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) and the [[Orthodox Church in America]] (OCA).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1906-1907, Bishop Anthony was member of the State Council and in 1912-1916 of the [[Holy Synod]]. He worked on the preparation for a Local Council of the Russian Church; he responded to 1905 questionnaire of Russian bishops by calling for the restoration of the patriarchy and the reform of theological education and other reforms in Church administration. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By the [[ukaz|ukase]] of the Synod on [[May 19]], 1914, Bishop Anthony was appointed to the Kharkiv and Aktyr cathedra. After the February 1917 Revolution, he was forced to ask for retirement because of poor relations with the new authorities in his area and the discontent of certain members of his [[clergy]]. On [[May 1]], 1917, he was retired and assigned to the [[Valaam Monastery]], where he wrote his book &amp;quot;The Doctrine of Redemption,&amp;quot; which later caused many arguments among Orthodox theologians. In August of 1917 he was again elected Archbishop of Kharkiv and Akhtyr by the Diocesan council of Kharkiv.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1917-1918, he was a member of the [[All-Russian Church Council of 1917-1918|Local Council of the Russian Church]], where he was a staunch supporter of restoring the patriarchy. His candidacy received the largest number of votes&amp;amp;mdash;159&amp;amp;mdash;but on [[November 5]], 1918, [[Patriarch]] St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] was elected by lot. On [[November 28]], Archbishop Anthony was raised to the rank of metropolitan and on [[December 7]] elected a member of the Holy Synod headed by Patriarch Tikhon.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In January 1918, Metropolitan Anthony was present at the All-Ukrainian Church Council in Kiev. He then fled the city before the Bolshevik invasion. Following the killing of New [[Hieromartyr]] St. [[Vladimir (Bogoyavlensky) of Kiev and Gallich|Vladimir (Bogoyavlesky) of Kiev]], Metropolitan Anthony was elected to the Kiev cathedra, and returned when the city was occupied by the Germans. However, his election was not approved by the authorities because of his opposition to Ukrainian [[autocephaly]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In December 1918, together with Archbishop Eulogius of Volyn, he was arrested by the Symon Petliura government. The two hierarchs were held at the [[Uniate]] [[monastery]] in Buchacha. In the spring of 1919, when Buchacha was taken by Polish forces, they were transferred to the vicinity of Krakow. In the summer of 1919 they were freed through the work of the French diplomatic mission. Metropolitan Anthony lived in L'viv. In September 1919, he left for Kuban, then returned to Kiev, which was held by White forces of General Denikin. After Kiev was retaken by Bolsheviks in November, he left for Yekaterinodar, where he was elected as president of the Temporary Higher Church Authority of South-East Russia. After the defeat of the Denikin army, he left for Greece, where he received the support of Archbishop [[Meletius IV (Metaxakis) of Constantinople|Meletius (Metaxakis)]] of Athens. In September 1920, he returned to Crimea, which was controlled by General Wrangel. After the latter's defeat in November, he left Russia for the last time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Between November 1920 and February 1921, Metropolitan Anthony was in [[Constantinople]]. At first he decided that the Temporary Authority should be abolished and pastoral care for displaced Russians handed over to other local churches. However, after learning of the decision of General Wrangel to retain his army for further battle with the Bolsheviks, Metropolitan Anthony decided to keep the Church organization abroad. The Temporary Authority met on [[November 19]], 1920, aboard the ship &amp;quot;Great Prince Alexader Mikhailovich,&amp;quot; presided over by Metropolitan Anthony. He and Bishop [[Benjamin (Fedchenko)]] were appointed to examine the canonicity of the organization. On [[December 2]], 1920, they received permission from Metropolitan Dorotheos of Prussia, [[Locum Tenens]] of the [[Ecumenical Patriarchate]], to establish &amp;quot;for the purpose of the service of the population ... and to oversee the ecclesiastic life of Russian colonies in Orthodox countries a temporary committee (epitropia) under the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarchate&amp;quot;; the committee was called the Temporary Higher Church Administration Abroad (THCAA). In February 1921, at the invitation of [[Patriarch]] Dimitry of Serbia, the THCAA relocated to Serbia, where, on [[August 31]], 1921, the Council of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church decided to take the organization under its protection as an independent jurisdiction for displaced Russians.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With the agreement of Patriarch Dimitry, the &amp;quot;General assembly of representatives of the Russian Church abroad&amp;quot; took place between [[November 21]] and December 2, 1921, in Sremsky Karlovtsi, Serbia. It was later renamed the [[First All-Diaspora Council]] and was presided over by Metropolitan Anthony. The Council established the &amp;quot;Supreme Ecclesiastic Administration Abroad&amp;quot; (SEAA), composed of a patriarchal Locum Tenens, a Synod of Bishops, and a Church Council. The Council decided to appoint Metropolitan Anthony the Locum Tenens, but he declined to accept the position without permission from Moscow and instead called himself the President of the SEAA. However, an Ukase of Patriarch St. Tikhon of Moscow, dated [[May 5]], 1922, abolished the SEAA and declared the political decisions of the Karlovtsy Council as not reflecting the postion of the Russian Church. Meeting in Sremsky Karlovtsy on [[September 2]], 1922, the Council of Bishops agreed to abolish the SEAA, in its place forming the Temporary Holy Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia with Metropolitan Anthony as its head by virtue of seniority. The Synod exercised direct authority over Russian [[parish]]es in the Balkans, the Middle East, and the Far East. In North America, however, a conflict erupted with those who did not recognize the authority of the Synod, led by Metropolitan [[Platon (Rozhdestvensky) of New York|Platon (Rozhdestvensky)]]; this group formed the American Metropolia, the predecessor to the OCA. Likewise, in Western Europe, Metropolitan [[Eulogius (Georgievsky) of Paris|Eulogius (Georgievsky)]] also did not recognize anything more than &amp;quot;a moral authority&amp;quot; of the Synod. Metropolitan Eulogius later broke off and joined the Ecumenical Patriarchate, forming the [[Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe]], known colloquially as the ''Rue Daru''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1925, at the invitation of Randell Davidson, [[Archbishop of Canterbury]], Metropolitan Anthony participated in festivities in London marking the 1600th anniversary of the [[First Ecumenical Council]]. In October of 1925, at the invitation of Romanian hierarchs, he participated in the enthronement of Patriarch [[Miron (Cristea) of Romania]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Metropolitan Anthony presided over another meeting of the Council of Bishops of ROCOR in June 1926. The bishops decided to accept Metropolitan [[Peter (Polyansky) of Krutitsa]] as the lawful Locum Tenens following the repose of St. Tikhon. The Council once again called for Metropolitans Platon and Eulogius to accept its [[jurisdiction]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On [[September 9]], 1927, the Council of Bishops of the ROCOR, presided over by Metropolitan Anthony, decreed a break of communion with ecclesiastic authorities in Moscow after categorically rejecting a demand by Metropolitan Sergius (Stragorodsky) of Nizhny Novgorod, who was acting as Locum Tenens, to declare loyalty to the Soviet authorities. Metropolitan Sergius responded in 1928 by decreeing that Metropolitan Eulogius had canonical authority in Western Europe and that all actions of the Karlovtsy Synod were uncanonical. Then, on [[June 22]], 1934, Metropolitan Sergius and his Synod passed judgment on Metropolitan Anthony and his Synod, declaring them to be under suspension. Metropolitan Anthony refused to recognize this decision, claiming that it was made under political pressure from Soviet authorities and that Metropolitan Sergius had illegally usurped the position of Locum Tenens. In this, he received the support of the Patriarch [[Varnava (Rosic) of Serbia|Varnava of Serbia]], who continued to maintain communion with the ROCOR Synod. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
During the course of his time abroad, Metropolitan Anthony continued to retain the title of Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia, an action recognized by Metropolitan Peter (Polyansky) of Krutitsa, who refused pressure from Soviet authorities to fill the vacant Kiev cathedra. In March 1931, the Synod of Bishops awarded him the title of &amp;quot;Beatitude.&amp;quot; In August 1932, Metropolitan Anthony proposed the election of a deputy president. The Bishops elected Archbishop [[Anastasy (Gribanovsky) of Kishinev]], who was elevated to the rank of metropolitan in 1935. In 1935, the Council of Bishops of ROCOR, under the leadership of Metropolitan Anthony, condemned as heretical the teaching of Archpriest [[Sergius Bulgakov]] about Sophia, the Wisdom of God.  This furthered the antagonism between ROCOR and the Western European Exarchate, where Father Sergius worked at the [[St. Sergius Orthodox Theological Institute (Paris, France)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Metropolitan Anthony reposed on [[August 10]], 1936, in Sremsky Karlovtsi, Serbia, and was buried in Belgrade at the Iveron Chapel in the Russian cemetery. Patriarch Varnava officiated at the [[Divine Liturgy]], Panikhida and burial services.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Theological views ==&lt;br /&gt;
Metropolitan Anthony was a remarkable writer, author of many works in apologetics, dogmatic, pastoral and moral theology, hermeneutics, canon law and other disciplines. His ecclesiological opinions were influenced by A. S. [[Khomiakov]]; from Khomiakov's view of the dogma of One Church, Metropolitan Anthony concluded that all [[heterodox]] churches were not part of the Church. He allowed the reception of converts through [[confession]] and [[chrismation]] strictly on the grounds of [[economy]]. Yet in his day, he taught that Orthodox bishops could receive Anglican clergy merely by penance [http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/khrapovitsky_orders1927.html &amp;quot;in existing orders.&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In his [[soteriology|sotereological]] conceptions, Metropolitan Anthony held that Orthodox dogmatic views must be entirely rid of the idea of [[substitutional atonement]] of [[Anselm of Canterbury]], which was popular in theological schools. Metropolitan Anthony wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We must think that during that night at [[Gethsemane]], the thoughts and feelings of the Godman encompassed all fallen men in their many billions, and wept with loving grief for all of them individually, which, of course, was only possible to the Divine, all-knowing heart. This was our atonement ... We are sure that the terrible sufferings of the Saviour at Gethsemane took place while beholding the sinful life and sinful nature of all human generations and that the words of the Lord &amp;quot;Let this cup pass from me&amp;quot; are not pointed to his upcoming [[Crucifixion]] and death, but to this, completely depressing to Him, feeling of profound grief for the sinful human race so beloved by Him.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thus Metropolitan Anthony considered not [[Golgotha]], but the sufferings in Gethsemane, as central to the Savior's feat of redemption. The bodily sufferings and death on the Cross were necessary so that the faithful would acknowledge the degree of His suffering. This view received criticism from some theologians, including [[John Meyendorff]] and [[Georges Florovsky]], with some going as far as to accuse Metropolitan Anthony of [[Pelagianism]]. It is important to note that Metropolitan Anthony did not pioneer this theological view: it appeared in Russian theology in the 19th century as an attempt to counteract Anselmian atonement. Later theologians claimed that Metropolitan Anthony's views were completely Orthodox, but that the way in which he expressed them led some to misinterpret his teaching.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{start box}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=&amp;amp;mdash;|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Bishop of Cheboksary|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1897-1899|&lt;br /&gt;
after=&amp;amp;mdash;}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=&amp;amp;mdash;|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Bishop of Chistopol'|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1899-1900|&lt;br /&gt;
after=&amp;amp;mdash;}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=?|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Bishop of Ufa and Menzelinsk|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1900-1902|&lt;br /&gt;
after=?}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=?|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Bishop of Volyn' and Zhitomir|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1902-1914|&lt;br /&gt;
after=?}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=?|&lt;br /&gt;
title=Archbishop of Khar'kov and Aktyr|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1914-1918|&lt;br /&gt;
after=?}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=St. [[Vladimir (Bogoyavlensky) of Kiev and Gallich|Vladimir (Bogoyavlensky)]]|&lt;br /&gt;
title=[[List of Metropolitans of Kiev|Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia]]|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1918-1919*|&lt;br /&gt;
after=[[Michael (Yermakov) of Grodno|Michael (Yermakov)]]&amp;lt;BR&amp;gt;Administrator}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{succession|&lt;br /&gt;
before=&amp;amp;mdash;|&lt;br /&gt;
title=First Hierarch of ROCOR|&lt;br /&gt;
years=1922-1936|&lt;br /&gt;
after=[[Anastasy (Gribanovsky) of Kishinev|Anastasy (Gribanovsky)]]}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{end box}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[ROCOR and OCA]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.sedmitza.ru/index.html?sid=77&amp;amp;did=37614&amp;amp;p_comment=belief Mitropolit Antonii (Khrapovitsky), Pravoslavnaya Entsiklopediya]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/metantny.htm Orthodox Holiness:  Metropolitan Anthony of Kiev and Galicia]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Bishops]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:First Hierarchs of the ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Modern Writers]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T04:54:06Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: Undo revision 80828 by Chrisg (Talk)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold in common the full Orthodox faith with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]], and at present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries, one located in Canada, on in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Rite]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite.  Some have stated on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion also gave a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], a blessing to use his own translation of the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should also be noted that there are a number of groups who follow various Western rites, and call themselves Orthodox but are not part of or in communion with the [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by or in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]] (different from the version of the [[Sarum Rite]] used within ROCOR before 2008.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-02-15T04:53:53Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: The pic has nothing to do with congregations. If we're going to have pictures of service books, it should be the Orthodox Missal, not one used in private prayer.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church.  Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold in common the full Orthodox faith with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]], and at present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:SarumKeller02.jpg|right|thumb|Title page of Sarum Missal, ed Fr Aidan Keller]]&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries, one located in Canada, on in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Rite]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite.  Some have stated on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion also gave a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], a blessing to use his own translation of the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should also be noted that there are a number of groups who follow various Western rites, and call themselves Orthodox but are not part of or in communion with the [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by or in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]] (different from the version of the [[Sarum Rite]] used within ROCOR before 2008.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism</id>
		<title>Western Rite Criticism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism"/>
				<updated>2009-02-04T21:58:35Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
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The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite Eucharist.  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Overview==&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Byzantine only==&lt;br /&gt;
Some argue that there is only the Byzantine liturgical tradition can be viable within the Church.  The argument's major weakness is that it ignores the wide liturgical variety characteristic of the first millennium of the Church's history.  Many Orthodox Christians currently boast of the Church's liturgical homogeneity, claiming that, no matter where one might go in the Orthodox world, the [[liturgy]] will be familiar, even if it's in another language.  However, their first millennium counterparts would have been incapable of making such a claim&amp;amp;mdash;even if only the Eastern liturgical tradition were taken into account.  It wasn't until the 13th century that the tradition of the Great Church (i.e., [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]]) became normative for the whole of Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Divisiveness==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism is that the Western Rite is inherently divisive.  Following different liturgical traditions than their neighboring Byzantine Rite Orthodox Christians, those using the Western Rite do not share liturgical unity with them and present an unfamiliar face to the majority of Orthodox Christians.  Again, this argument is based on the relatively new notion of liturgical homogeneity.  Likewise, differences exist between the various uses of the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==An Orthodox Unia?==&lt;br /&gt;
Related to liturgical division, the question of ongoing administrative division has been raised.  The situation of Western Orthodox parishes has been compared with the status of the autonomous [[Uniate]] churches under the [[Roman Catholic Church]].  For centuries, there have been hierarchical churches in [[full communion]] with and in subjection to the Vatican, but which the Pope allows to follow Byzantine liturgical customs and rules.  The Uniates, despite usages that more closely resemble the majority of Orthodox Christians, share a common dogmatic belief with Latin Rite Catholics.  Analogously, the Western Rite Orthodox share the same faith as their Byzantine Rite Orthodox brethren.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, unlike the [[Uniates]], Western Rite Orthodox congregations are not the result of large-scale ecclesiastical political machinations and [[schism]] but rather of small-scale genuine conversion to Orthodoxy by individuals and congregations.  Also, Western Rite congregations all adhere to the same bishops as their Byzantine brethren; they do not constitute a separate church of their own, unlike the Byzantine Catholics (&amp;quot;Uniates&amp;quot;) within Roman Catholicism.  Criticism of the Western Rite based on its similarity with the Uniates has been called guilt by association&amp;amp;mdash;overplaying a superficial similarity of form.  Because the ideas are analogous, the argument goes, they must therefore both be inauthentic developments.  Yet the more firmly established criticisms of Uniatism usually have nothing to do with rite but rather with dogma, ecclesiology, and allegedly subversive missionary work.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Conversion without conversion==&lt;br /&gt;
Another criticism often leveled against the Western Rite is based on the mainly [[convert]] makeup of most of its parishes.  The argument states that such Christians want to be Orthodox but &amp;quot;not too Orthodox,&amp;quot; so they keep their familiar rites under a new bishop.  The unstated assumption behind this argument, however, is similar to the argument against all non-Byzantine liturgical traditions:  That  Orthodoxy includes only the Byzantine Rite, and so if one wants to be truly Orthodox, one must also be Eastern.  Again, history shows otherwise.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Additionally, this argument also fails to take into account the longstanding history of some of these parishes.  For many of them, the Western Rite with an Orthodox Christian faith (though certainly sometimes outside canonical bounds) genuinely is the faith of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.  The argument fails to address the question of substance&amp;amp;mdash;that is, it does not address whether and why the Western Rite is or is not actually Orthodox.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is an accident of history that the Western Rite is not yet firmly established again within the Orthodox Church.  That most of its adherents are converts is not germane to the question of its Orthodoxy.  One might level the same accusation at predominantly convert Byzantine Rite parishes, that they need to learn to give up everything familiar in order to become Orthodox, whether it's language, culture, or some other facet of life.  Oddly enough, some have argued precisely that, saying, for instance, that English is incapable of expressing the Orthodox faith.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lack of liturgical continuity==&lt;br /&gt;
Finally, more historically minded criticisms of the Western Rite usually center around the idea that it is untenable to try to revive a liturgical tradition which was lost centuries ago when the West fell away from the [[Orthodox Church]].  This argument essentially states that, because the Western Rite died out in the Church, and because a continuous living tradition is a necessary element of liturgical practice, the Western Rite ought to be abandoned and only developments from the Byzantine Rite ought to be pursued.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created.  After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.  Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fr. John Shaw of ROCOR also argues the little-known Liturgy of St. Peter, a [[liturgy]] identical to that of the Byzantine rite with the ancient Gregorian canon in its place, never fell out of use within Orthodoxy.  The Old Believers and others celebrated this, explicitly endorsing the validity of the Western canon.  At present, the historicity of this assertion is not universally accepted.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Further, the now fairly well-known [[Liturgy of St. James]] once fell out of use throughout most of the Church and has now been revived in many places to be celebrated on [[October 23]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ westernorthodox.blogspot.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html The Western Rite is Not &amp;quot;Reverse Uniatism&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ www.westernorthodox.com]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
*From [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/index.html www.holy-trinity.org/modern]:&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], by Fr. Alexander Schmemann&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Antiochian_Western_Rite_Vicariate</id>
		<title>Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Antiochian_Western_Rite_Vicariate"/>
				<updated>2009-01-30T00:34:07Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{westernrite}}The '''Western Rite Vicariate''' of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]] is a group of Orthodox Christian parishes throughout North America who worship using the [[Western Rite]] tradition.  They number roughly 10,000 communicants in about twenty parishes and are under their local [[diocese|diocesan]] [[bishops]], retaining Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]] as their &amp;quot;bishop of reference.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==History==&lt;br /&gt;
===Before the Vicariate===&lt;br /&gt;
The initial parishes received into the Orthodox Church as the Western Rite Vicariate did not consist of a new movement invented by the [[Church of Antioch|Antiochian Patriarchate]] or its [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America|North American archdiocese]], but rather already had history within Orthodoxy, as Archpriest Paul W.S. Schneirla, Vicar General of the Western Rite, reports:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The first major approach was made in the late nineteenth century by a Roman Catholic priest, John Joseph Overbeck [''sic'', referencing [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]]], who revised the Roman rite to conform to Orthodox standards, a fairly simple operation at that time. His proposal was accepted by the [[Church of Russia|Russian Orthodox]] [[Holy Synod]] and he was encouraged and supported by interested missionary-minded Russians, but by the time of his death in the first decade of Twentieth Century, his movement had not succeeded and his converts were absorbed into Byzantine communities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:At the turn of the century, the only Orthodox bishop in North America, the later Russian Patriarch [[Tikhon of Moscow|Tikhon (Belavin)]] was approached by a group of Episcopalians, who asked to be allowed to continue the use of the American ''Book of Common Prayer'' rather than the [[Byzantine Rite]].  Bishop Tikhon petitioned the Holy Synod of Moscow and a commission of theologians was directed to provide a detailed examination and revision of the Prayer Book to be approved for the converts (the report was printed in the ''Journal of the Theological Academy of St. Petersburg'', a summary in English was printed in ''The Russian American Messenger'', a critical review by two Anglican scholars appeared as ''Tract XII'' of the Alcuin Club and a fuller version with notes appeared in ''The Orthodox Catholic Review'', a publication of the Antiochian Archdiocese).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan [[Gerasimos (Messara) of Beirut|Gerassimos (Messerah) of Beirut]] received a Western Rite movement in England before World War I, and Metropolitan [[Germanos (Shehadi) of Zahle|Germanos (Shehadi)]], while resident in the United States, engaged in negotiations to receive a [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] movement in Mexico in the 1920s.  Neither of these projects resulted in a continuing community.  They are noticed here to demonstrate that an Orthodox Western Rite is not a recent project.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Our present Western Rite Vicariate began with the return of a few parishes of converts that had dropped out of our diocese in the difficult days after World War I.  It was approved by the late Patriarch Alexander and was finally received in the early 1950s.  There are presently some twenty centers. There are no invented services: the parishes use either the form approved for Overbeck or for Patriarch Tikhon, now a saint of the Church.[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, in some sense, the Antiochian Archdiocese &amp;quot;inherited&amp;quot; the parishes which made up the Western Rite Vicariate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Creation of the Vicariate===&lt;br /&gt;
On [[May 31]], 1958, Patriarch [[Alexander III (Tahan) of Antioch]], in consultation with the heads of the other [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] Orthodox churches, authorized His Eminence Metropolitan [[Antony (Bashir) of New York]] to establish the Western Rite in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  In August of that year, Metropolitan Antony issued his edict establishing the Western Rite Vicariate in the archdiocese.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The late Metropolitan Antony (Bashir) of the Syrian Antiochian Archdiocese, was approached by leaders and individuals of various bodies. He always made it his policy to thoroughly investigate such seekers of unity with the Church, and has had occasion to refuse several. At the same time, however, in desiring to extend and implement Orthodoxy’s mission in America, Metropolitan Antony realized that there were also those outside of communion with the Church who were sincerely seeking the truth, who were desirous of becoming engrafted to the vine of Christ. After considerable meditation of the problem and taking into consideration the action of the Church elsewhere in the world, namely France, he came to the conclusion that the use of a Western rite in America could be of importance in facilitating the return to the Church of separated Western Christians in America. He turned for guidance to the late Patriarch Alexander III of Antioch who, in May, 1958, after consultation with the other Autocephalous Churches, gave an affirmative reply. Forwarding to the Metropolitan an Arabic translation of the famous 1936 Ukase of the Moscow Patriarchate, the Patriarch of Antioch authorized Metropolitan Antony to &amp;quot;take the same action, leaving to your Orthodox zeal and good judgment the right to work out the details in the local situations.&amp;quot;[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The first Vicar General of the Western Rite Vicariate was Fr. [[Alexander Turner]], who had served as bishop to those parishes before reception into the Antiochian Archdiocese.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Vicariate today===&lt;br /&gt;
Since its founding in 1958, the Western Rite Vicariate has nearly doubled in size and now consists of a rapidly growing dimension of the Church's mission in America [http://www.stcolumbachurch.org/aboutorthodox.cfm], including 16 [[parish]]es and 7 missions.  Because of his association with the founding of the [[Western Rite]] in America, the Vicariate holds St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] as its [[patron saint]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Commission==&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite Commission of the Antiochian Archdiocese consists of:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*The Right Reverend Bishop Basil, Archepiscopal Vicar&lt;br /&gt;
*The Very Rev. Fr. Edward W. Hughes, Vicar-General&lt;br /&gt;
*The Rev. Fr. George Morelli&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*The Very Rev. Fr. Paul W. S. Schneirla, Vicar-General (retired)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.antiochian.org/Western-Rite/ Western Rite Vicariate] (Archdiocese site)&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://anglicanhistory.org/alcuin/tract12.html/ Tract 12 from the Alcuin Club]&lt;br /&gt;
===Articles===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov (also includes an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Antony to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention)&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/luxocc.htm Lux Occidentalis: The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity] by the Rev’d John Charles Connely, M.A.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Parishes===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/directory.html Western Rite Orthodox Parish Directory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/ St. Michael Church], Whitter, CA&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/stmark St. Mark Church], Denver, CO&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stcolumbachurch.org/ St. Columba Church], Lafayette, CO&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stgregoryoc.org/ St. Gregory the Great Church], Falls Church, VA&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaeloc.org/ St. Michael the Archangel Mission], Wichita, KS&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stvincentchurch.org/ St. Vincent of Lerins Church], Omaha, NE&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/ St. Peter Church], Ft. Worth, TX&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.antiochian.org/OurLadyOfWalsingham Our Lady of Walsingham Church], Mesquite, TX&amp;lt;!-- *[http://www.holyapostleschurch.org/ Holy Apostles Orthodox Chapel], Tyler, TX (This link is not associated with this chapel.)---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.st-benedict.org/ St. Benedict of Nursia Church], Wichita Falls, TX&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.spokaneorthodox.com/ St. Nicholas Church], Spokane, WA&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.ca/ Our Lady of Walsingham Oratory], Toronto, ON - Canada&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.standreworthodox.info/ St. Andrew the First Called Church], Oklahoma City, OK&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Викарият на Западния обряд]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite</id>
		<title>Western Rite</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite"/>
				<updated>2009-01-30T00:31:51Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Western Rite''' refers to those churches that are full and equal members of the Orthodox Church yet follow a Western form of worship.  Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]].  Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold in common the full Orthodox faith with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]], and at present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
{{westernrite}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Modern History==&lt;br /&gt;
===The Nineteenth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]].  Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy.  He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church.  In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years.  A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite.  A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend.  The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; [[Mass]].  This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission.  Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility.  He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879.  There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material.  In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite.  Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure.  Overbeck reposed in 1905.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox (&amp;quot;Jacobite&amp;quot;) church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The Twentieth Century===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''&lt;br /&gt;
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after.  In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church.  It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring.  While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy.  St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility.  According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry.  In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner.  It concluded that such edits &amp;quot;can be carried out only on the spot, in America,&amp;quot; and found it &amp;quot;desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop.&amp;quot;  Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew.  Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907.  However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The United States====&lt;br /&gt;
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes.  The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961.  Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971.  At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General.  On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America.  In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery (&amp;quot;Christminster&amp;quot; colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Elsewhere====&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England.  Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities.  Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes.  The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph Ren&amp;amp;eacute; Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Liturgy==&lt;br /&gt;
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both).  The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen]  Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called &amp;quot;Tridentine&amp;quot; Mass].  Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy.  Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was &amp;quot;a work for specialists.&amp;quot; The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by &amp;quot;a Commission of Orthodox Theologians,&amp;quot; an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine &amp;quot;the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts.&amp;quot; The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, &amp;quot;establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline,&amp;quot; drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Congregations==&lt;br /&gt;
By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]].  Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries, one located in Canada, on in Tasmania, and one in Florida.  Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or &amp;quot;The English Liturgy,&amp;quot; an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Rite]].  St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied:  &amp;quot;Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern.  The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.&amp;quot; [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield &amp;quot;in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal&amp;quot; at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. This blessing includes the celebration of the Mt. Royal recension of liturgy, the &amp;quot;Holyrood/St. Petroc' Sarum on High Feasts,&amp;quot; and [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/13160/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html occasional celebration] of the Byzantine Rite.  Some have stated on rare occasions he uses propers once used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], although no quotation of his to this effect has been produced.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion also gave a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], a blessing to use his own translation of the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR.  His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should also be noted that there are a number of groups who follow various Western rites, and call themselves Orthodox but are not part of or in communion with the [[Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]&amp;amp;mdash;also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements.  The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by or in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] group not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]], has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]] (different from the version of the [[Sarum Rite]] used within ROCOR before 2008.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''&lt;br /&gt;
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church.  Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite.  Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]].  However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen.  In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes&amp;amp;mdash;continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sarum Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gallican Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stowe Missal]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Vestments]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis]: Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania] &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Liturgies===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Books===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826&lt;br /&gt;
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Introduction and History===&amp;lt;!-- &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23 An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Interview with Fr. Paul Schneirla and Fr. Michael Keiser on [http://www.receive.org/ Come Receive the Light] (audio) Sent message to Seraphim Danckaert at OCN to see whether this is online. ~Magda ---&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]:  [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence]  Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite. &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html &amp;quot;Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,&amp;quot;] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church:  Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Video===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Apologiae===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite &amp;quot;FAQ&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Criticism===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;], ibid.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot; In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The &amp;quot;Western Rite&amp;quot;: Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===News and Views===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Listservs===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: &amp;quot;Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen.&amp;quot; Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR). &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Dedicated to promoting the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', written by the group's moderator.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Western Rite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[bg:Западен обряд]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Malankara_Jacobite_Syriac_Orthodox_Church</id>
		<title>Malankara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Malankara_Jacobite_Syriac_Orthodox_Church"/>
				<updated>2008-09-20T18:57:43Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{english}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''Malankara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church''' is an autonomous [[jurisdiction]] of the [[Church of Antioch (Syriac)|Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch]] in India.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{orientalchurches}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== History ==&lt;br /&gt;
The Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church, sometimes known simply as the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, is one of the oldest Christian communities in India. It is believed to have been established by the [[Apostle Thomas]] in his missionary journey to India in 52 AD.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Leadership ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The head of the Malankara Church is known as the [[Catholicos]]. The church is currently led by Catholicos Baselios Thomas I. In the Syrian Orthodox Church hierarchy, the Catholicos is second in rank to the supreme spiritual head, H.H. Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Wikipedia:Malankara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://syriacchristianity.org/ Malankara Syriac Christian Resources]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.malankara.com/ Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian (Syriac) Orthodox Church in North America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.bsmcathedral.org Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church - St. Mary's Cathedral ,Bangalore ]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Oriental Orthodox|Malankara Jacobite]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions|Malankara Jacobite]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[ar:الكنيسة السريانية الأرثوذكسية]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Martyrs_of_China</id>
		<title>Martyrs of China</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Martyrs_of_China"/>
				<updated>2008-09-18T11:14:07Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Ioann */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[image:ChineseMartyrs.jpg|right|thumb|An icon of the seventy-plus martyrs killed along with the Priest Mitrophan.]] The '''Holy Martyrs of China''' were [[martyr]]ed in the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.  Their [[feast day]] is celebrated on [[June 11]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lives==&lt;br /&gt;
[[image:Mitrophan.jpg|left|thumb|St Mitrophan, the spiritual father of and one of the Chinese Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion.]] &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Priest Mitrophan===&lt;br /&gt;
The priest Mitrophan (also Metrophanes), whose Chinese name was Ji chong or Tsi Chung (the English transliterations vary), was born on [[December 10]], 1855. He lost his father in early childhood and was raised under the care of his grandmother Ekaterina and his mother Marina; his mother was a teacher at a school for women. At this time he experienced many troubles. When Archimandrite Pallady became head of the mission for the second time, he charged his teacher Juren Long Yuan to take great care in educating Mitrophan, in order to prepare him for his eventual [[ordination]]. Before reaching twenty years of age, he was appointed to the post of catechist. At 25 he was ordained to the priesthood by Nikolai, [[bishop]] of Japan.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Mitrophan was a [[humility|humble]] person, very cautious and quiet, peaceful and dispassionate; even when faced with great insults, he did not try to justify himself. From the time of his arrival in  Beijing (北京, Peking), Archimandrite Pallady charged Mitrophan, as did his teacher Long Yuan, to try to attain the priesthood. Mitrophan, however, did not want to accept ordination and constantly refused it, saying &amp;quot;how can a person with insufficient abilities and charity dare to accept this great rank?&amp;quot; But under the forceful urging of Archimandrite Flavian, succesor to Pallady, and the persuasion of the teacher, Mitrophan obeyed, even though he knew that by accepting the priesthood, his end would be inevitable. Under Archimandrite Flavian, Mitrophan assisted in translating and checking books. For fifteen years, he tirelessly served God while suffering many hurts and insults, both from his own people and outsiders. He finally had a mild breakdown. Sometime after this he spent three years living outside the mission, receiving half of his previous salary. All his life Father Mitrophan was never greedy, and many took advantage of this.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Martyrdom====&lt;br /&gt;
On the evening of June 1, 1900 (which was the 17th day of the 5th month on the Chinese calendar){{ref|1}}, the Boxers burned the buildings of the mission. About seventy Christians, hiding from danger, assembled in St Mitrophan's home. Although Fr. Mitrophan's former ill-wishers were among them, he did not drive them out. Seeing that some people were dispirited, he strengthened them, saying that the time of troubles had come and would be difficult to avoid. He himself several times daily went to look at the burned church. On the 10th of June, towards 10 in the evening, soldiers and Boxers surrounded Fr. Mitrophan's dwelling. Up to seventy Christians were there at the time; the stronger among them fled, while Fr. Mitrophan and many others, primarily women and children, remained and were tortured. Fr. Mitrophan sat in his courtyard when the Boxers punctured his chest, and he fell under a date tree. His neighbors removed his body to the mission's almshouse. Later the [[hieromonk]] Avraamy picked up Fr. Mitrophan's body and, in 1903, during the first commemoration of the martyrs, it and those of the others, were placed under the altar in the martyrs' church. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fr. Mitrophan’s family members were also tortured; they included his wife Tatiana and his three sons: the eldest, named Isaiah; the second, called Sergiy, a priest; and the third, Ioann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Tatiana===&lt;br /&gt;
On June 11th Tatiana was saved from the Boxers with help from her son Isaiah's bride, but on the following morning, June 12th, she was seized along with 19 others and sent to Xiaoyingfang, where the Boxer camp was located, and was finally executed by beheading. An almshouse for the poor now stands on the place of her execution.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Isaiah===&lt;br /&gt;
Isaiah had served in the military for 23 years. On June 7th, the Boxers beheaded him because he was known to be a Christian.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Ioann===&lt;br /&gt;
Ioann (John) was only eight years old at the time. On June 10, when his father was killed, Boxers slashed his shoulders and chopped off his nose, ears, and toes. His brother Isaiah's bride managed to save him from death by hiding him in a latrine. In the morning he sat at the entrance without clothes and shoes, and when people asked &amp;quot;Are you hurting?&amp;quot; he answered “It doesn't hurt.&amp;quot; Boys scoffed at him, calling him a “child of demons.&amp;quot; Shortly thereafter, he reposed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Russian Orthodox Mission in China]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Church of China]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allsaintsofamerica.org/martyrs/nmchina.html Stars of the East, The Chinese Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodox.cn/saints/korz_en.htm The Chinese Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion], by Fr. Geoffrey Korz. [http://www.conciliarpress.com/pages/again.html AGAIN] [[Magazines and Publications|magazine]]. Volume 22, No. 3 (July-September 2000). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Orthodoxy in China]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Saints|China]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Martyrs|China]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Martyrs_of_China</id>
		<title>Martyrs of China</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Martyrs_of_China"/>
				<updated>2008-09-18T11:12:52Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Ioann */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[image:ChineseMartyrs.jpg|right|thumb|An icon of the seventy-plus martyrs killed along with the Priest Mitrophan.]] The '''Holy Martyrs of China''' were [[martyr]]ed in the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.  Their [[feast day]] is celebrated on [[June 11]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lives==&lt;br /&gt;
[[image:Mitrophan.jpg|left|thumb|St Mitrophan, the spiritual father of and one of the Chinese Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion.]] &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Priest Mitrophan===&lt;br /&gt;
The priest Mitrophan (also Metrophanes), whose Chinese name was Ji chong or Tsi Chung (the English transliterations vary), was born on [[December 10]], 1855. He lost his father in early childhood and was raised under the care of his grandmother Ekaterina and his mother Marina; his mother was a teacher at a school for women. At this time he experienced many troubles. When Archimandrite Pallady became head of the mission for the second time, he charged his teacher Juren Long Yuan to take great care in educating Mitrophan, in order to prepare him for his eventual [[ordination]]. Before reaching twenty years of age, he was appointed to the post of catechist. At 25 he was ordained to the priesthood by Nikolai, [[bishop]] of Japan.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Mitrophan was a [[humility|humble]] person, very cautious and quiet, peaceful and dispassionate; even when faced with great insults, he did not try to justify himself. From the time of his arrival in  Beijing (北京, Peking), Archimandrite Pallady charged Mitrophan, as did his teacher Long Yuan, to try to attain the priesthood. Mitrophan, however, did not want to accept ordination and constantly refused it, saying &amp;quot;how can a person with insufficient abilities and charity dare to accept this great rank?&amp;quot; But under the forceful urging of Archimandrite Flavian, succesor to Pallady, and the persuasion of the teacher, Mitrophan obeyed, even though he knew that by accepting the priesthood, his end would be inevitable. Under Archimandrite Flavian, Mitrophan assisted in translating and checking books. For fifteen years, he tirelessly served God while suffering many hurts and insults, both from his own people and outsiders. He finally had a mild breakdown. Sometime after this he spent three years living outside the mission, receiving half of his previous salary. All his life Father Mitrophan was never greedy, and many took advantage of this.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Martyrdom====&lt;br /&gt;
On the evening of June 1, 1900 (which was the 17th day of the 5th month on the Chinese calendar){{ref|1}}, the Boxers burned the buildings of the mission. About seventy Christians, hiding from danger, assembled in St Mitrophan's home. Although Fr. Mitrophan's former ill-wishers were among them, he did not drive them out. Seeing that some people were dispirited, he strengthened them, saying that the time of troubles had come and would be difficult to avoid. He himself several times daily went to look at the burned church. On the 10th of June, towards 10 in the evening, soldiers and Boxers surrounded Fr. Mitrophan's dwelling. Up to seventy Christians were there at the time; the stronger among them fled, while Fr. Mitrophan and many others, primarily women and children, remained and were tortured. Fr. Mitrophan sat in his courtyard when the Boxers punctured his chest, and he fell under a date tree. His neighbors removed his body to the mission's almshouse. Later the [[hieromonk]] Avraamy picked up Fr. Mitrophan's body and, in 1903, during the first commemoration of the martyrs, it and those of the others, were placed under the altar in the martyrs' church. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fr. Mitrophan’s family members were also tortured; they included his wife Tatiana and his three sons: the eldest, named Isaiah; the second, called Sergiy, a priest; and the third, Ioann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Tatiana===&lt;br /&gt;
On June 11th Tatiana was saved from the Boxers with help from her son Isaiah's bride, but on the following morning, June 12th, she was seized along with 19 others and sent to Xiaoyingfang, where the Boxer camp was located, and was finally executed by beheading. An almshouse for the poor now stands on the place of her execution.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Isaiah===&lt;br /&gt;
Isaiah had served in the military for 23 years. On June 7th, the Boxers beheaded him because he was known to be a Christian.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Ioann===&lt;br /&gt;
Ioann (John) was only eight years old at the time. On June 10, when his father was killed, Boxers slashed his shoulders and chopped off his nose, ears and toes. His brother Isaiah's bride managed to save him from death by hiding him in a latrine. In the morning he sat at the entrance without clothes and shoes, and when people asked &amp;quot;are you hurting?&amp;quot; he answered “it doesn't hurt.&amp;quot; Boys scoffed at him, calling him a “child of demons.&amp;quot; Shortly thereafter, he reposed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Russian Orthodox Mission in China]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Church of China]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allsaintsofamerica.org/martyrs/nmchina.html Stars of the East, The Chinese Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodox.cn/saints/korz_en.htm The Chinese Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion], by Fr. Geoffrey Korz. [http://www.conciliarpress.com/pages/again.html AGAIN] [[Magazines and Publications|magazine]]. Volume 22, No. 3 (July-September 2000). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Orthodoxy in China]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Saints|China]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Martyrs|China]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Martyrs_of_China</id>
		<title>Martyrs of China</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Martyrs_of_China"/>
				<updated>2008-09-18T11:06:07Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* External Links */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[image:ChineseMartyrs.jpg|right|thumb|An icon of the seventy-plus martyrs killed along with the Priest Mitrophan.]] The '''Holy Martyrs of China''' were [[martyr]]ed in the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.  Their [[feast day]] is celebrated on [[June 11]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lives==&lt;br /&gt;
[[image:Mitrophan.jpg|left|thumb|St Mitrophan, the spiritual father of and one of the Chinese Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion.]] &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Priest Mitrophan===&lt;br /&gt;
The priest Mitrophan (also Metrophanes), whose Chinese name was Ji chong or Tsi Chung (the English transliterations vary), was born on [[December 10]], 1855. He lost his father in early childhood and was raised under the care of his grandmother Ekaterina and his mother Marina; his mother was a teacher at a school for women. At this time he experienced many troubles. When Archimandrite Pallady became head of the mission for the second time, he charged his teacher Juren Long Yuan to take great care in educating Mitrophan, in order to prepare him for his eventual [[ordination]]. Before reaching twenty years of age, he was appointed to the post of catechist. At 25 he was ordained to the priesthood by Nikolai, [[bishop]] of Japan.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Mitrophan was a [[humility|humble]] person, very cautious and quiet, peaceful and dispassionate; even when faced with great insults, he did not try to justify himself. From the time of his arrival in  Beijing (北京, Peking), Archimandrite Pallady charged Mitrophan, as did his teacher Long Yuan, to try to attain the priesthood. Mitrophan, however, did not want to accept ordination and constantly refused it, saying &amp;quot;how can a person with insufficient abilities and charity dare to accept this great rank?&amp;quot; But under the forceful urging of Archimandrite Flavian, succesor to Pallady, and the persuasion of the teacher, Mitrophan obeyed, even though he knew that by accepting the priesthood, his end would be inevitable. Under Archimandrite Flavian, Mitrophan assisted in translating and checking books. For fifteen years, he tirelessly served God while suffering many hurts and insults, both from his own people and outsiders. He finally had a mild breakdown. Sometime after this he spent three years living outside the mission, receiving half of his previous salary. All his life Father Mitrophan was never greedy, and many took advantage of this.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Martyrdom====&lt;br /&gt;
On the evening of June 1, 1900 (which was the 17th day of the 5th month on the Chinese calendar){{ref|1}}, the Boxers burned the buildings of the mission. About seventy Christians, hiding from danger, assembled in St Mitrophan's home. Although Fr. Mitrophan's former ill-wishers were among them, he did not drive them out. Seeing that some people were dispirited, he strengthened them, saying that the time of troubles had come and would be difficult to avoid. He himself several times daily went to look at the burned church. On the 10th of June, towards 10 in the evening, soldiers and Boxers surrounded Fr. Mitrophan's dwelling. Up to seventy Christians were there at the time; the stronger among them fled, while Fr. Mitrophan and many others, primarily women and children, remained and were tortured. Fr. Mitrophan sat in his courtyard when the Boxers punctured his chest, and he fell under a date tree. His neighbors removed his body to the mission's almshouse. Later the [[hieromonk]] Avraamy picked up Fr. Mitrophan's body and, in 1903, during the first commemoration of the martyrs, it and those of the others, were placed under the altar in the martyrs' church. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fr. Mitrophan’s family members were also tortured; they included his wife Tatiana and his three sons: the eldest, named Isaiah; the second, called Sergiy, a priest; and the third, Ioann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Tatiana===&lt;br /&gt;
On June 11th Tatiana was saved from the Boxers with help from her son Isaiah's bride, but on the following morning, June 12th, she was seized along with 19 others and sent to Xiaoyingfang, where the Boxer camp was located, and was finally executed by beheading. An almshouse for the poor now stands on the place of her execution.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Isaiah===&lt;br /&gt;
Isaiah had served in the military for 23 years. On June 7th, the Boxers beheaded him because he was known to be a Christian.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Ioann===&lt;br /&gt;
Ioann (John) was only eight years old at the time. On the evening of June 11th, when Fr. Mitrophan was killed, the Boxers split Ioann's shoulders and severed his toes. His brother Isaiah's bride managed to save him from death by hiding him in a latrine. In the morning he sat at the entrance without clothes and shoes, and when people asked &amp;quot;are you hurting?&amp;quot; he answered “it doesn't hurt.&amp;quot; Boys scoffed at him, calling him a “child of demons&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Russian Orthodox Mission in China]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Church of China]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.allsaintsofamerica.org/martyrs/nmchina.html Stars of the East, The Chinese Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodox.cn/saints/korz_en.htm The Chinese Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion], by Fr. Geoffrey Korz. [http://www.conciliarpress.com/pages/again.html AGAIN] [[Magazines and Publications|magazine]]. Volume 22, No. 3 (July-September 2000). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Orthodoxy in China]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Saints|China]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Martyrs|China]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prayer_book</id>
		<title>Prayer book</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prayer_book"/>
				<updated>2008-09-11T09:51:33Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Prayer books available in English */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;A '''prayer book''' in the [[Orthodox Church]] is a book of [[prayer]]s, usually designed for private devotional use by [[laity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== History ==&lt;br /&gt;
Before the advent of printing, prayer books were written by hand and were often richly decorated with initials and miniature illustrations telling stories in the lives of [[Christ]] or the [[saint]]s, or stories from the [[Bible]]. Because of the cost involved, such prayer books were usually only used by [[clergy]], [[monk|monastics]], or the wealthy.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With the advent of printing, prayer books became accessible to the average laymen and have been an important aspect of Orthodox [[piety]] ever since.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Prayer books available in English ==&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Holy Trinity Monastery (Jordanville, New York)|Jordanville]] ''Prayer Book'': good translation (for the most part) and reasonably complete. It uses the ''Psalter According to the Seventy'' produced by [[Holy Transfiguration Monastery (Brookline, Massachusetts)|Holy Transfiguration Monastery]]. For [[ROCOR]] parishioners, this is the best one to use, because of the translation. The edition currently available is the work of Fr. Lawrence (Campbell). This book is very similar to the one published by Holy Transfiguration. The main difference is that there are many additional morning and evening prayers. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''A Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians'' (translated from the Greek and published by [http://www.thehtm.org/ Holy Transfiguration Monastery]): follows Athonite Greek usage; contains Morning Prayers and Prayers at Mealtime, and the complete service of Small Compline, Vespers, Matins, and the Divine Liturgy, together with the principle hymns of the feasts of the year, and the complete Service of Pascha. Also included are the Akathist Hymn to our Sweet Lord Jesus Christ, the Akathist Hymn to the Most Holy Theotokos, a supplicatory canon to our Lord Jesus Christ, both the Small and Great Supplicatory Canons to the Most Holy Theotokos (translated to fit the Greek melodies), a supplicatory canon to the Guardian Angel, and the Communion Prayers.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''An Orthodox Prayer Book'' (bilingual; modern English translation by Archimandrite Ephrem (Lash) from the Greek and originally published by Oxford University Press; revised 2nd edition by Nigel Lynn Publishing on behalf of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain): follows the standard settings of Greek morning prayers, evening prayers and small [[Compline]] as found in the ''Synekdemos''. This translation is harmonious with the Oxford University Press edition of the ''Divine Liturgy'' (published with the blessing of the [[Ecumenical Patriarch]]) and with the wide range of liturgical material published on Fr Ephrem's [http://anastasis.org.uk web-site].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The Old Orthodox Prayer Book'', or as it is commonly referred to, &amp;quot;The [[Old Believers|Old Believer]] Prayer Book&amp;quot;: This prayer book has a lot of useful instructional material, and a lot of services that are set up such that they can be done as reader services (such as a [[Moleben]]). It also has the [[Church Slavonic|Slavonic]] text and the English text on facing pages. The disadvantage to it is the Slavonic text is not the standard text used by the Church (being the Old Rite) and so it differs in wording and often in structure. Nevertheless, it is quite useful. This prayer book was produced for use by the Old Rite community in Erie, Pennsylvania (ROCOR).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary (South Canaan, Pennsylvania)|St. Tikhon's]] ''Orthodox Prayer book'' (Slavonic/English Edition): This prayer book is particularly useful in parishes in which both English and Slavonic are used. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[http://www.antiochian.org/orthodox-prayers ''The Pocket Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians''], published by the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America|Antiochian Archdiocese]], is a popular, but more abbreviated version of the Prayer Book, though it contains some prayers not typically included in other prayer books.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/daily_prayers.asp ''Daily Prayer for Orthodox Christians''], by Fr. N. Michael Vaporis, originally published in 1986 and recently reprinted by Holy Cross Orthodox Press (a publishing arm of the [http://www.goarch.org Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America]) is a bilingual Greek/modern English prayer book containing selections from ''The Synekdemos'', including Morning and Evening Prayers, Small Compline, the Service of Preparation for Holy Communion and Thanksgiving Following Holy Communion.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''A Prayer Book: An Anthology of Orthodox Prayers'', by Fr. Peter A. Chamberas, is a bilingual Greek and modern English prayer book published by [http://www.alexanderpress.com Alexander Press] containing Morning, Afternoon, Evening and Midnight prayers, plus 50 pages of prayers for various needs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''My Prayer Book'', published in 2003 by the Attendants of Hieromonk Spyridon of [http://orthodoxwiki.org/New_Skete_(Athos) New Skete], Mount Athos, Greece, is a modern English translation of common Greek Orthodox prayers in their traditional form. The text is available online [http://www.phys.uoa.gr/~nektar/orthodoxy/prayers/prayer_book_english.htm here].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Orthodox Prayer Book'', published by [http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&amp;amp;KEY=oca-we-boupvm Holy Protection Monastery] in Lake George, Colorado, is a modern English prayer book containing the common morning and evening prayers used in the Russian tradition, plus prayers for loved ones and various needs, Canons to Our Guardian Angel and for Repentance, Paraklesis to the Theokotos, and prayers before and after Holy Communion.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Orthodox Christian Prayerbook'', published by the [http://www.ocpm-scoba.org/ Orthodox Christian Prison Ministry], is an adaptation of the Book of Hours, or [[''Horologion'']], for use by the laity. It contains Vespers, Small Compline, the Midnight Office, Daily Matins and First Hour, Third Hour, Sixth Hour and Typica, and the Ninth Hour adapted for use without clergy. The translation used is a modern English revision of the texts used by the [http://www.antiochian.org/ Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Orthodox Prayers for Everyday'' is another adaptation of the Hours for use by the laity throughout the day. Complied and translated by Maureen Girard and published by [http://www.reginaorthodoxpress.com/index.html Regina Orthodox Press], it also contains the Paschal Hours, Morning Prayers, Prayers Before Sleep, and Prayers Before Holy Communion. The translation used is a comprehensible mix of old and modern English.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[http://books.google.com/books?id=b3fT-ck2hVcC&amp;amp;pg=PA10&amp;amp;dq=Orthodox+prayerbook&amp;amp;client=firefox-a&amp;amp;sig=ACfU3U0K5JhnMEl5w711lt2Fa08v36Jqbg#PPR7,M1 ''A Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayers''], published by St. Vladmir's Seminary Press, is for use of laity. It contains Morning and Evening Prayers, Prayers for Different Occasions, Anthems and Hymns of the Greater Feasts and Saints' Days, the Slavonic and Greek Order of Confession, Prayers Before and After Holy Communion, and a Church calendar.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Come To Me'', published by Christ the Saviour Seminary Press in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, is a publication of the [[American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese]]. It contains Morning and Evening Prayers, Prayers for Different Occasions, the diocesan text of the Divine Liturgy, the full text of Troparion/Kontakion and Prokeimenon of each Sunday, Special Hymns, the Order for Confession, and Prayers Before and After Holy Communion. The book also contains a number of instructional and catechetical articles on Confession and Communion, Reading the Bible, living an Orthodox life, as well as meditations on Holy Communion.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Siddur]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Breviary]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/prayerbks.aspx A Listing of Suggested Prayer Boooks. Orthodoxinfo.com]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.saintjonah.org/services/library.htm Practical Tips on how to Build a Liturgical Library]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm The Old (Fr. Lazarus Moore) Jordanville Prayer Book, Online]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pr_prayer.aspx Prayer, Orthodoxinfo.com]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liturgics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Texts]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Apostolos_Makrakis</id>
		<title>Talk:Apostolos Makrakis</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Apostolos_Makrakis"/>
				<updated>2008-09-11T09:29:26Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I know I may be totally wrong here, but don't most Orthodox believe this man to be a heretic? Isn't this the same guy who claimed to be an Apostle, et cetera....?--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:10, September 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I was actually going to raise the same issue, but I couldn't find my documentation on the matter. I remember similar objections. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 09:29, September 11, 2008 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Joachim_and_Anna</id>
		<title>Joachim and Anna</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Joachim_and_Anna"/>
				<updated>2008-09-09T23:10:26Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[image:Joachimanna.jpg|right|thumb|Ss. Joachim and Anna, grandparents of [[Christ]], with their daughter the Ever-virgin [[Mary]].]]&lt;br /&gt;
The holy and [[righteous]] '''Joachim and Anna''' are the parents of the [[Theotokos]], the grandparents of [[Jesus Christ]].  Their [[feast day]] is celebrated on [[September 9]], following the [[Nativity of the Theotokos]]; the dormition of St. Anna is commemorated on [[July 25]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lives==&lt;br /&gt;
St. Joachim was of the tribe of [[Judah]], and a descendant of King [[David]]. St. Anna was the daughter of Matthan the priest, of the tribe of Levi as was Aaron the High Priest. Matthan had three daughters: Mary, [[Zoia]], and Anna. Mary was married in Bethlehem and bore Salome; Zoia was also married in Bethlehem and bore [[Elizabeth]], the mother of St. [[John the Forerunner]]; and Anna was married in Nazareth to Joachim, and in old age gave birth to the [[Theotokos]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sts. Joachim and Anna had been married for fifty years, and were barren. They lived devoutly and quietly, using only a third of their income for themselves and giving a third to the poor and a third to the Temple. Joachim had done this since he was 15-years-old, and God multiplied his flocks, so the couple was well provided for. They longed for a child but remained childless into their old age. When they were in Jerusalem to offer sacrifice to God, the High Priest, Issachar, upbraided Joachim, &amp;quot;You are not worthy to offer sacrifice with those childless hands.&amp;quot; Others who had children jostled Joachim, thrusting him back as unworthy. In despair, he consulted the geneological records of the tribes of Israel and discovered every righteous man in the nation had been blessed with children, except him. This caused the aged saint great grief, and he and his wife left with heavy hearts. Then the two of them gave themselves to prayer to God that He would work in them the wonder that He had worked in [[Abraham]] and [[Righteous Sarah|Sarah]], and give them a child to comfort their old age. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Joachim took his flocks and went to a high mountain, refusing to return home in shame. Meanwhile, St. Anna prayed in her garden. God sent the [[Archangel Gabriel]] to each of them, who gave them tidings of the birth of &amp;quot;a daughter most blessed, by whom all the nations of the earth will be blessed, and through whom will come the salvation of the world.&amp;quot; Each promised to have their child raised in the Temple as a holy vessel of God. The archangel told St. Joachim to return home, where he would find his wife waiting for him in the city gate. St. Anna he told to wait at the gate. When they saw one another, they embraced, and this image is the traditional icon of their feast. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Anna conceived shortly thereafter, and in the ninth month gave birth to the Blessed Virgin Mary. This [[Conception of the Theotokos|Conception of the Most Holy Mother of God]] is celebrated by the Church on [[December 9]] and the [[Nativity of the Theotokos]] is celebrated on [[September 8]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sts. Joachim and Anna took Mary, at the age of two, to the temple to be dedicated to the service of the Lord, and presented her to the priest Zechariahs. The parents then, after offering up her sacrifice (according to the custom of the time), left the Virgin with other maidens in the apartments of the temple to be brought up therein. The Church commemorates the [[Presentation of the Theotokos]] on [[November 21]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Dormition of the Righteous Anna==&lt;br /&gt;
During the next seven years, Righteous Anna and Joachim visited Mary often at the temple until they died, leaving her an orphan at age ten. St. Joachim lived for 80 years and Anna for 79, and they both entered into the kingdom of God before the [[Annunciation]] to the Most Holy Theotokos. The Dormition feast day of St. Anna is celebrated on [[July 25]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relics==&lt;br /&gt;
During the reign of St [[Justinian]] the Emperor (527-565), a church was built in honor of St Anna at Deutera. And since St Anna had appeared to his pregnant wife, Emperor Justinian II (685-695; 705-711) restored her church. It was at this time that her body and maphorion (veil) were transferred to Constantinople.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hymns ==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Troparion]] ([[Tone]] 5) &lt;br /&gt;
:Let us sing praises to Joachim and Anna,&lt;br /&gt;
:the couple honored by God &lt;br /&gt;
:(and they are His kinsmen).&lt;br /&gt;
:They have borne for us the Maiden&lt;br /&gt;
:who in a manner beyond understanding&lt;br /&gt;
:gave birth to Him Who though fleshless,&lt;br /&gt;
:became the incarnate to save the world.&lt;br /&gt;
:With her they [[intercession|intercede]] for our souls.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Kontakion]] (Tone 2)&lt;br /&gt;
:Anna rejoices, released from her barrenness,&lt;br /&gt;
:and nurses her most pure child.&lt;br /&gt;
:She calls all people to glorify Him&lt;br /&gt;
:Who gave the Virgin Mother to mankind from her womb.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Dormition of the Righteous Anna hymns===&lt;br /&gt;
Troparion - Tone 4&lt;br /&gt;
:Divinely-wise Anna, you carried in your womb the pure Mother of God, who gave life to our Life.&lt;br /&gt;
:Therefore, you are now carried joyfully to the inheritance of heaven,&lt;br /&gt;
:To the abode of those who rejoice in glory,&lt;br /&gt;
:Where you seek forgiveness of sins for those who faithfully honor you, ever blessed one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kontakion - Tone 2&lt;br /&gt;
:We celebrate the memory of the progenitors of Christ,&lt;br /&gt;
:And with faith we ask their help,&lt;br /&gt;
:That deliverance from every affliction be granted to those who cry out:&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Be with us, O God, who in Your good pleasure glorified them.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
What the Church knows of the Theotokos’ parents, survives from several sources, primarily the [[Protoevangelion of James]].&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints/joachim_anna.htm Saints Joachim and Anna]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.gostanna.org/church/life.asp The Life &amp;amp; Dormition of St. Anna]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=201 The Holy &amp;amp; Righteous Ancestors of God, Joachim and Anna] ([[GOARCH]])&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?FSID=102546 Holy and Righteous Ancestor of God, Joachim], [http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?FSID=102547 Holy and Righteous Ancestor of God, Anna] ([[OCA]])&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?FSID=102086 Dormition of the Righteous Anna, the Mother of the Most Holy Theotokos] (OCA)&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=140 Dormition of St. Anna, mother of the Theotokos] (GOARCH)&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.comeandseeicons.com/j/inp80.htm Icon of Ss. Joachim and Anna with the Theotokos]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Biblical Saints]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Saints]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[fr:Joachim et Anne]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Ioachim şi Ana]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Patrick_of_Ireland</id>
		<title>Patrick of Ireland</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Patrick_of_Ireland"/>
				<updated>2008-09-09T10:54:11Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Willibrord: /* Life */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:Patrick of Ireland.jpg|right|frame|St. Patrick of Ireland]]&lt;br /&gt;
Our father among the [[saint]]s '''Patrick of Ireland''', [[Bishop]] of Armagh and [[Enlightener]] of Ireland, was born a Briton.  Captured and brought to Ireland as a slave, he escaped and returned home.  Later, he returned to Ireland, bringing Christianity to its people.  His feast day is [[March 17]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Life==&lt;br /&gt;
Saint Patrick was born around 390 (likely in 387), at Kilpatrick, near Dumbarton, in Scotland. His name is from the Latin ''Patricius'', meaning ''high-born''.  His parents were part of the Christian minority of Britain; his father, Calpurnius, was a [[deacon]], &amp;quot;the son of Potitus, a priest, of the village Bannavem Taburniæ.&amp;quot; At the age of 16, he was captured during a raiding party and taken to Ireland as a slave to herd and tend sheep. During that time, he prayed frequently and came for the first time to have a true faith in God. At age 22, he had a vision in which God told him to be prepared to leave Ireland. Soon, he escaped, walking 200 miles to a ship and returning to England. In a dream, he saw the people of Ireland calling him, &amp;quot;We beg you, holy youth, that you shall come and shall walk again among us.&amp;quot; He sought clerical training. He was ordained by St. [[Germanus of Auxerre|Germanus]], bishop of Auxerre. Around 430 he was ordained a bishop, after which he returned to Ireland. There, he preached the [[Gospels|Gospel]], reaching tribal chieftains, gaining their permission to teach their subjects also. During his episcopate, he was attacked for a sin he confessed to a close friend, a sin he committed &amp;quot;in a single hour&amp;quot; when only 15, but he did not suffer as a result. He established an episcopal administration and led a [[monasticism|monastic]] lifestyle, establishing Christianity in Ireland.  St. Patrick died at Saul, Downpatrick, Ireland, March 17, 461.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Works attributed to Patrick==&lt;br /&gt;
===''Confessio''===&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[#External links and Sources|1]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; Saint Patrick wrote this semi-autobiography as a labor for God, explaining the story of his life to inspire others to believe and turn their lives to God.  Additionally, he wished to address concerns his fellow clergy had about his holding the office of bishop.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===''Epistola''===&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[#External links and Sources|2]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; Saint Patrick wrote this letter to the soldiers of King Coroticus to chastize them for capturing Christians of Patrick's flock as slaves.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Explanation of the Trinity===&lt;br /&gt;
Saint Patrick is most often recognized for likening the [[Trinity]] to a shamrock, illustrating that the shamrock has three parts, and yet is one; in a similar way, the Trinity has three persons, and is still one God. (cf. the [[OCA]]'s icon&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[#External links and Sources|3]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Lorica of Saint Patrick===&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[#External links and Sources|4]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; ''Lorica'' means ''breastplate'' in Latin.  The story of this prayer is that Patrick and his followers used this most beautiful prayer to protect themselves from the people who wanted to kill them as they travelled across Ireland.  It is also called the ''Deer's Cry'' (''Fáed Fíada'') because their enemies saw, not men, but deer.  It may not have been written by Patrick, but is considered to reflect his theological focus on the Trinity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I arise today&lt;br /&gt;
:through a mighty strength,&lt;br /&gt;
:the invocation of the Trinity,&lt;br /&gt;
:through belief in the Threeness,&lt;br /&gt;
:through confession of the Oneness of the Creator of creation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I arise today&lt;br /&gt;
:through the strength of [[Christ]] with His [[Baptism]],&lt;br /&gt;
:through the strength of His [[Crucifixion]] with His Burial,&lt;br /&gt;
:through the strength of His [[Resurrection]] with His Ascension,&lt;br /&gt;
:through the strength of His descent for the Judgment of Doom.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I arise today&lt;br /&gt;
:through the strength of the love of [[Cherubim]],&lt;br /&gt;
:in obedience of [[Angels]], in the service of the [[Archangels]],&lt;br /&gt;
:in hope of resurrection to meet with reward,&lt;br /&gt;
:in prayers of [[Patriarch]]s, in predictions of [[Prophet]]s,&lt;br /&gt;
:in preachings of [[Apostles]], in faiths of [[Confessor]]s,&lt;br /&gt;
:in innocence of Holy Virgins, in deeds of righteous men.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I arise today&lt;br /&gt;
:through the strength of Heaven:&lt;br /&gt;
:light of Sun, brilliance of Moon, splendour of Fire,&lt;br /&gt;
:speed of Lightning, swiftness of Wind, depth of Sea,&lt;br /&gt;
:stability of Earth, firmness of Rock.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I arise today&lt;br /&gt;
:through God's strength to pilot me:&lt;br /&gt;
:God's might to uphold me, God's wisdom to guide me,&lt;br /&gt;
:God's eye to look before me, God's ear to hear me,&lt;br /&gt;
:God's word to speak for me, God's hand to guard me,&lt;br /&gt;
:God's way to lie before me, God's shield to protect me,&lt;br /&gt;
:God's host to secure me:&lt;br /&gt;
:against snares of devils,&lt;br /&gt;
:against temptations of vices,&lt;br /&gt;
:against inclinations of nature,&lt;br /&gt;
:against everyone who shall wish me ill,&lt;br /&gt;
:afar and anear, alone and in a crowd.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I summon today all these powers between me (and these evils):&lt;br /&gt;
:against every cruel and merciless power that may oppose my body and my soul,&lt;br /&gt;
:against incantations of false prophets,&lt;br /&gt;
:against black laws of heathenry,&lt;br /&gt;
:against false laws of [[heresy|heretics]],&lt;br /&gt;
:against craft of idolatry,&lt;br /&gt;
:against spells of witches and smiths and wizards,&lt;br /&gt;
:against every knowledge that endangers man's body and soul.&lt;br /&gt;
:Christ to protect me today&lt;br /&gt;
:against poison, against burning,&lt;br /&gt;
:against drowning, against wounding,&lt;br /&gt;
:so that there may come abundance of reward.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Christ with me, Christ before me,&lt;br /&gt;
:Christ behind me, Christ in me,&lt;br /&gt;
:Christ beneath me, Christ above me,&lt;br /&gt;
:Christ on my right, Christ on my left,&lt;br /&gt;
:Christ in breadth, Christ in length, Christ in height,&lt;br /&gt;
:Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,&lt;br /&gt;
:Christ in the mouth of every man who speaks of me,&lt;br /&gt;
:Christ in every eye that sees me, Christ in every ear that hears me.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I arise today&lt;br /&gt;
:through a mighty strength,&lt;br /&gt;
:the invocation of the Trinity,&lt;br /&gt;
:through belief in the Threeness,&lt;br /&gt;
:through confession of the Oneness of the Creator of creation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Salvation is of the Lord.&lt;br /&gt;
:Salvation is of the Lord.&lt;br /&gt;
:Salvation is of Christ.&lt;br /&gt;
:May Thy Salvation, O Lord, be ever with us.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Works about Patrick==&lt;br /&gt;
*Muirchu's ''Life of Saint Patrick'', written c. 683 (two centuries after Patrick's death), is the oldest existing, known work about Saint Patrick.&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[#External links and Sources|5]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Hymns==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Troparion]] (Tone 3)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Holy Bishop Patrick,&lt;br /&gt;
:Faithful shepherd of Christ's royal flock,&lt;br /&gt;
:You filled Ireland with the radiance of the Gospel:&lt;br /&gt;
:The mighty strength of the Trinity!&lt;br /&gt;
:Now that you stand before the Savior,&lt;br /&gt;
:Pray that He may preserve us in faith and love!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Kontakion]] (Tone 4)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:From slavery you escaped to freedom in Christ's service:&lt;br /&gt;
:He sent you to deliver Ireland from the devil's bondage.&lt;br /&gt;
:You planted the Word of the Gospel in pagan hearts.&lt;br /&gt;
:In your journeys and hardships you rivaled the Apostle Paul!&lt;br /&gt;
:Having received the reward for your labors in heaven,&lt;br /&gt;
:Never cease to pray for the flock you have gathered on earth,&lt;br /&gt;
:Holy bishop Patrick!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links and sources==&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; [http://www.ccel.org/ccel/patrick/confession.i.html ''Confessio'' of Saint Patrick] (in [http://www.amdg.be/sankt/confess.htm French])&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; [http://www.iol.ie/~santing/patrick/CoroticusFrame.htm ''Letter to Coroticus'']&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;3&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; [http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&amp;amp;ID=1&amp;amp;FSID=100821 St. Patrick the Bishop of Armagh and Enlightener of Ireland] from the [[Orthodox Church in America]] website&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;4&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; [http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/Poetry/StPatrick.html Saint Patrick's Lorica]&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;5&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; [http://www.geocities.com/vortigernstudies/fabio/book4.3.htm Muirchu and his sources] by Fabio P. Barbieri&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=2365 Saint Patrick, the Enlightener of Ireland] from the [[Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America]] website&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://oca.org/FStropars.asp?SID=13&amp;amp;ID=100821 St. Patrick the Bishop of Armagh and Enlightener of Ireland: Troparion and Kontakion] from the [[Orthodox Church in America]] website&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wace/biodict.v.xvi.xviii.html Patricius] from the Christian Classics Ethereal Library&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.irelandseye.com/paddy2/patrick.html Saint Patrick of Ireland]&lt;br /&gt;
*''Declaration'' and ''Letter'' from A.B.E. Hood, ed. and trans., ''St. Patrick: His Writings and Muirchu's Life''.  (Totowa, NJ: Rowman and Littlefield, 1978.) ISBN 084766080X&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.medievalchurch.org.uk/p_patrick.html Patrick]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.voskrese.info/spl/fiacc.html ''Hymn of Saint Fiacc''] (in [http://www.amdg.be/sankt/fiacc.html French])&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100001A/text122.html ''Annals of Ulster''] mentioning the relics of St. Patrick, in 552 AD&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://celticchristianity.org/library/secund.html ''Audite, omnes amantes Deum''], or ''Hymn of St. Patrick, Teacher of the Irish'', by his nephew Saint Sechnall or Secundinus (in [http://www.amdg.be/sankt/patrick-sechnall.html French])&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://membres.lycos.fr/stmaterne/psomalis/patrick.pdf Byzantine Service (in Greek) to Saint Patrick (PDF)], Apostle of Ireland, by protopsaltis Panagiotis Somalis&lt;br /&gt;
*Saint Patrick's ''Life'' in French, with [[icon]]s: [http://www.amdg.be/sankt/patrick-boll.html 1] [http://www.amdg.be/sankt/mar17.html 2]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.comeandseeicons.com/p/mdg01.htm Icon of St. Patrick of Ireland]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Saints]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Bishops]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Missionaries]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Monastics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Saints]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Wonderworkers]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Willibrord</name></author>	</entry>

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