OrthodoxWiki - User contributions [en]

User:RockOfVictory

2006-08-30T13:40:58Z

RockOfVictory: /* Tests */ Another [http://google.com/search url search test].

[[Image:Jeiffel.jpg|thumb|[http://flickr.com/photos/jjd/82077466/ Me in Paris], Dec. 31, 2005.]]
I am probably one of the few [[Evangelicalism|Evangelical]] (specifically, [[Journeys_to_Orthodoxy#Baptist|Baptist]]) contributors to this site. See my [[Wikipedia:User:RockOfVictory|Wikipedia user page]] for more about me.

I've been exploring several MediaWiki-based resources lately and am trying to '''help the Christian community consolidate information so we're not doing a lot of redundant work with resources'''. I keep shifting from one Christian wiki site to another, mainly in an effort to glean the best aspects of each site and discuss how we can centralize the content more effectively. It's also been fun meeting Christians with different beliefs and visions for the wiki community. I generally try to focus on contributing to Wikipedia, but some topics are considered too specialized (like articles for every verse in the Bible), which is why I've ventured out looking for Christian wikis.

There are two or three other Christian wiki users looking to collaborate across different MediaWiki sites. As of August 2006, we haven't made much progress on creating a central discussion and collaboration website, but I've got high hopes that we can make one! The best we've done is a [http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Christianity_Knowledge_Base:ChristianKM ChristianKM] wiki project page on CKB. The [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rwiki/ rWiki Yahoo! Group] was a good start, but I think we would be better off collaborating within a MediaWiki environment. It seems to be theological opinions that divide us on the content-focus of each Christian wiki; while that is fine, I think it would be worthwhile to share the resources and information that we do have in common and point to the wikis that have been the most technologically innovative on certain topics.

I'm starting to ramble, but I wanted specifically to recommend the Bible wiki sites [http://Wikible.org Wikible.org] (Protestant slant) and [http://bible.tmtm.com BibleWiki] (Wikipedia-like [[Wikipedia:WP:NPOV|NPOV]]) as they've done a good job focusing on a particular Christian topic (i.e. [[Holy Scripture]]). See particularly [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Christian_wikis Christian wikis] and [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Bible_wikis_comparison Bible wikis comparison] on Wikible. I'm aware of the [[Other wikis]] page here, but the Wikible page is much more up-to date and comprehensive.

The Orthodox perspective, in particular, is one that our collaborative efforts are lacking. Please [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:RockOfVictory&action=edit&section=new add a new section to my talk page] if you would like to discuss inter-Christian-wiki collaboration (my talk page isn't limited to collaboration discussion only, of course; use my "E-mail this user" link if you like, as well)...

==Tests==
An external link to test if search will find [http://uva.edu/~jbeard/index.php this url]. Another [http://google.com/search url search test].

[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]

User:RockOfVictory

2006-08-30T13:08:31Z

RockOfVictory: ~jbeard test

OrthodoxWiki:User gallery

2006-08-22T13:48:58Z

RockOfVictory: /* Other Users */ Added myself

OrthodoxWiki talk:Copyrights

2006-08-17T20:34:45Z

RockOfVictory: /* CC footer misleading */ Possibly remove and just leave existing "Copyright Information"

==Lack of Authorship/Editorship Information in Encyclopedic Wiki Entries==
All what one finds in wikis are IP addresses and nicknames. The lack of clear and complete authorship/editorship information attached to each entry, including authors/editors' affiliations and credentials, is a very serious quality issue encountered in most wiki-based encyclopedias these days (not just OrthodoxWiki). There are no built-in wiki mechanisms or policies to enforce the presence of such metainformation in every article.

===Problem with Citations===
Citing a wiki page in your work can also be very tricky (unless one uses the new 'permanent link' feature in MediaWiki to point to a specific revision of that page). A page might significantly change and become a totally different article than the one you were originally referring to (while still maintaining the same URI).

===Some Related Links===
* http://www.sosig.ac.uk/desire/offline/internet-detective.zip
* http://www.vts.rdn.ac.uk/

''From [[User:Arbible]]''

== Re: ==

As far as Wikipedia is concerned, they explicitly state "a direct link back to the article satisfies our author credit requirement" ([[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Copyright]]). I think we should adopt the same explicit policy (and to this end, the "click through" language has recently been revised. I agree about the permalinks -- that's why I'm now recommending that the link to the original article go to the version permalink rather than the article itself (although I'm not requiring it since Wikipedia does not require it for compliance).

As far as OrthodoxWiki is concerned, we don't have the issue with IP addresses. Besides this, an author is free to give as much or as little information about themselves as they wish (on their user page). There is more discussion of this at [[Help:Citing OrthodoxWiki]] - please feel free to comment there too. Thanks, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

:Just to confirm - does OrthodoxWiki have the same stipulation as Wikipedia, ie that OrthodoxWiki must be referenced in quotes and borrowed articles? — ''[[User:Pistevo|Pι]]''[[Special:Listusers/sysop|s]]'''[[User talk:Pistevo|τ]]'''[[Special:Contributions/Pistevo|é]]''[[User:Pistevo|vο]]'', at 22:48, May 31, 2006 (CDT)

::Yes, I believe this is the case, Pistevo. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 15:32, August 17, 2006 (CDT)

==CC footer misleading==
Until I noticed your multimedia announcement today, I hadn't realized that OrthodoxWiki ran under dual licensing. Maybe it would be best to remove the CC image from the footer and replace it with plain text, like "[http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html GFDL]-[http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ CC] licensed"—or just remove the image and leave the "Copyright Information" link as-is in the footer. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 15:32, August 17, 2006 (CDT)

OrthodoxWiki talk:Copyrights

2006-08-17T20:32:03Z

RockOfVictory: /* Re: */ Change CC to GFDL-CC plain text in footer

==Lack of Authorship/Editorship Information in Encyclopedic Wiki Entries==
All what one finds in wikis are IP addresses and nicknames. The lack of clear and complete authorship/editorship information attached to each entry, including authors/editors' affiliations and credentials, is a very serious quality issue encountered in most wiki-based encyclopedias these days (not just OrthodoxWiki). There are no built-in wiki mechanisms or policies to enforce the presence of such metainformation in every article.

===Problem with Citations===
Citing a wiki page in your work can also be very tricky (unless one uses the new 'permanent link' feature in MediaWiki to point to a specific revision of that page). A page might significantly change and become a totally different article than the one you were originally referring to (while still maintaining the same URI).

===Some Related Links===
* http://www.sosig.ac.uk/desire/offline/internet-detective.zip
* http://www.vts.rdn.ac.uk/

''From [[User:Arbible]]''

== Re: ==

As far as Wikipedia is concerned, they explicitly state "a direct link back to the article satisfies our author credit requirement" ([[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Copyright]]). I think we should adopt the same explicit policy (and to this end, the "click through" language has recently been revised. I agree about the permalinks -- that's why I'm now recommending that the link to the original article go to the version permalink rather than the article itself (although I'm not requiring it since Wikipedia does not require it for compliance).

As far as OrthodoxWiki is concerned, we don't have the issue with IP addresses. Besides this, an author is free to give as much or as little information about themselves as they wish (on their user page). There is more discussion of this at [[Help:Citing OrthodoxWiki]] - please feel free to comment there too. Thanks, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

:Just to confirm - does OrthodoxWiki have the same stipulation as Wikipedia, ie that OrthodoxWiki must be referenced in quotes and borrowed articles? — ''[[User:Pistevo|Pι]]''[[Special:Listusers/sysop|s]]'''[[User talk:Pistevo|τ]]'''[[Special:Contributions/Pistevo|é]]''[[User:Pistevo|vο]]'', at 22:48, May 31, 2006 (CDT)

::Yes, I believe this is the case, Pistevo. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 15:32, August 17, 2006 (CDT)

==CC footer misleading==
Until I noticed your multimedia announcement today, I hadn't realized that OrthodoxWiki ran under dual licensing. Maybe it would be best to remove the CC image from the footer and replace it with plain text, like "[http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html GFDL]-[http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ CC] licensed". --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 15:32, August 17, 2006 (CDT)

OrthodoxWiki:Project Ideas

2006-08-17T14:42:21Z

RockOfVictory: /* Wikimedia Projects */ Added meta project link

'''OrthodoxWiki''' (''wikifying Orthodoxy since 2004'') has been serving as a directory, an encyclopedia, and an archive of Orthodox images. Soon, we will launch '''[[os:Main Page|OrthodoxSource]]''', which is to be a repository for Orthodox images, audio, video, and documents. This will serve to clarify the mission of each site and provide a space to build in a different direction.

Many other projects are possible as well. In some cases, new wikis, tied in to OrthodoxSource as a common image and media repository, would be beneficial. [[User:FrJohn|I]] am willing to handle the technical side of things and arrange for hosting, etc. - but I can't develop these projects alone. They will take a lot of community involvement to build.

I am curious to know what kinds of projects seem most interesting or fruitful to build.

==Wikimedia Projects==
By way of example, Wikimedia (the foundation that oversees Wikipedia) has the following major projects (with [[meta:Proposals_for_new_projects#Existing_projects|more constantly being recommended and occasionally added]]):

* The '''Wikimedia Commons''' is a repository of free content images, sound and other multimedia files. It is a common resource repository to all the various Wikimedia sister projects regardless of language.

* '''Wikisource''' – ''The Free Library'' – is a project to build a free content wiki library of source texts, along with translations into any language and other supporting materials. It is located at '''[http://wikisource.org Wikisource.org]'''.

* '''Wiktionary''' is a project intended to be a free wiki dictionary [http://en.wiktionary.org/ (hence: Wiktionary)] (including thesaurus and lexicon) in every language. It is located at [http://www.wiktionary.org wiktionary.org].

* '''Wikibooks''' is a wiki for the creation of books.

* '''Wikijunior''' is the working title for a set of books targeted to children aged 8–11 being developed at the Wikibooks. This effort will consist of both a website and magazine.

* '''Wikinews''' is a free-content news source wiki. It allows anyone to report news on a wide variety of subjects. Its mission, as stated on the main page of the English version of its website, is to "create a diverse environment where citizen journalists can independently report the news on a wide variety of current events".

* '''Wikispecies''' is an open, free directory of species.

* The '''Meta''' wiki serves a number of distinct roles, including discussion and coordination of all the various Wikimedia projects and a help guide to the MediaWiki software.

* The '''Wikimedia Incubator''' is used to test possible new Wikimedia projects and new languages for existing projects.

==Other Projects==
* [http://wikiindex.com WikiIndex] is a directory of Wiki sites, which aims to categorize all wikis by various criteria. It is related to [http://aboutus.com AboutUs.com], which aims to pull in information for every site on the world wide web.

==Future Possibilities==

* '''OrthodoxQuotes''' - A huge collections of Patristic and other quotes?

* '''OrthodoxTexts''' - A place to post full text (public domain, etc.) books (separate from OrthodoxSource, where they would probably be posted as PDFs instead?)

* '''OrthodoxSites''' - Something like [http://wikiindex.com WikiIndex] or [http://aboutus.com AboutUs.com], but that caters specifically to the Orthodox community?

* '''OrthodoxBooks''' - Summaries of Orthodox books and authors

* '''OrthodoxBlogs''' - A catalogue of Orthodox Blogs, categorizing them by license (full copyright or [http://creativecommons.org Creative Commons]), themes (theology, politics, personal life, parish life, technology, etc.), jurisidiction, and locale, with descriptions, links, and RSS feeds for each. This could also include thematic distillations of material culled from Orthodox blogs, along with notes about the willingness of each blogger to let his or her content be repurposed in this way.

* '''OrthodoxLiturgy''' - A catalogue of Orthodox liturgical commentary and real-life practices from various locations in the Orthodox cosmos.

==More...==
Any other ideas?

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

User talk:RockOfVictory

2006-08-17T14:27:36Z

RockOfVictory: /* Wiki Collaboration */ Use the sig button ;-)

{{welcome}}

—[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 14:42, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

== Wiki Collaboration ==

Greetings RockOfVictory,

I'm going to email you an invite to the rWiki Yahoo group I started. It's got most of the Christian Wiki admins on board, though it hasn't really gone anywhere and has been inactive for some time. You'd be mor ethan welcome to try to revive a discussion there. {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

:Ick! I stopped using Yahoo! Groups about three or four years ago. Why use something like that when we have MediaWiki? I guess Yahoo! serves as good neutral ground, but I still think we could carve out a good MediaWiki "Christian Meta Wiki" home on the web somewhere. Check out [http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Christianity_Knowledge_Base:Community_Portal#An_open_letter_to_users_and_administrators_of_the_various_different_Christian_wikis Ben's thoughts], in particular. CKB may be a good place to do it (1) because you don't have to register to comment and (2) it's Wikia-hosted and will likely have 99% uptime, not to mention that the software is always up to date. On the other hand, the Wikia-hosting limits the kinds of customizations we can make to it; I hate the right-column ads, too! --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 20:32, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

::Hi RockOfVictory,

::I am interested in talking more about this all. Hmm... I guess I like Yahoo Groups for this kind of thing because it's a "push" technology - email comes to me (without tweaking notifications) and the email archives are easily accessible and searchable. Also, because it's private - I think some conversations are better off in private. An email group seems a better genre for this kind of focused discussion.
::Of the things you mentioned about CKB, (1) isn't really an asset in my mind since it makes me think of all the spam battles we've fought on this board, and (2) - 99% uptime is pretty normal nowadays and the Wikia hosting is more of a liability than a plus. The ads bug the heck out of me (esp. for this kind of site) and I find it hard to take a site seriously when it's on that kind of hosted service (maybe a good place to start out, but it's not fully brandable, and can't be configured in a way most relevant to a particular community - no backend access = yikes!). [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 09:23, August 11, 2006 (CDT)
:::P.S. I agree with this comment, at the link you mentioned - "I doubt that different denominations could agree on the topics that the "meta" would have. Instead, I think that it's important just to have a central community of Christian MediaWiki users; focus would be on understanding the resources that each wiki has." As far as I can tell, the most effective central index now is on Wikipedia's "[[w:Christian wikis|Christian wikis]]" page. We also have a page on [[OrthodoxWiki:Other wikis|other wikis]] which could be fleshed out a bit.
:::P.P.S. Just posted a note on rWiki, so we'll see if we get any response.

:Thanks for all your thoughts. I guess we just wait and pray now. By the way, why do you sometimes use [[User:FrJohn/sig]] and other times just the regular <code><nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki></code>? --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:13, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

::That's a good question -- I guess <nowiki>~~~</nowiki> is just quicker, but the template includes an easy link to my talk page - I try to use it when I'm in a discussion and haven't already included a talk page link. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

::: You're so quirky with that template, or just nothing at all. It's like I know it's you on OrthodoxWiki if there's ''nothing'' after the comment (e.g. your recent project post on the Trapeza). Learn to love the handy toolbar sig button, Father John! ;-) --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 09:27, August 17, 2006 (CDT)

:While it's not the ideal location for reasons mentioned above, I've at least got us a starting wiki page:http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Christianity_Knowledge_Base:ChristianKM - I chose CKB mainly because anyone can edit it. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 15:56, August 15, 2006 (CDT)

===Gmail chat excerpt===
''Father John and I had a Gmail chat session on Friday and I think it may be insightful to others. You can comment on this directly below, or continue the general collaboration discussion above. The excerpt isn't verbatim; I've cleaned up the formatting and done some copy editing. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 15:17, August 15, 2006 (CDT)''

Friday August 11, 1-2 PM CST

JOHN: I think there are major hurdles to this kind of thing... Not least that a lot of people in each major community don't really want to cooperate with those outside... (I mean among Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox... and more specifically too)

ME: Yes, there are, but I'd say that we shouldn't EXclude other webmasters even though our focus is on MediaWiki

JOHN: Also, many of the issues discussed will be quite different... maybe bill it as a ChristianKM community? "Knowledge management" is a term used in the corporate world for these types of endeavors, more broadly conceived. That would encourage a certain type of thinking... that I'm hungry for, but there's not enough Orthodox interest to pull off.

ME: the share-together type of thinking?

JOHN: Basically, the goal would be to discuss strategies of managing church-based (nonprofit) information, to pull knowledge out of it. I mean the KM type of thinking. It's thinking more philsophically, e.g., about what a wiki really is doing, how it functions within a community. Not just wikis... and how the data/information gathered cvan be turned into something more valuable.

ME: So are you saying this would double up as a ChristianWiki Foundation, too?

JOHN: I don't think a ChristianWiki foundation would really work, at least across the Prot/Cath/Orthodox divide... but I think this type of "interest group" could. The attraction would be that it would bring together people like us looking for ways to strategize about managing knowledge within our specific communtiies... Kind of like a working group, but not geared so much at cooperative efforts as at shared learning, trading tips, brainstorming, etc.

ME: I think that some content could fit into the picture, too, though. Like Public Domain resources. I've seen so many attempts at publishing the KJV, or Easton's Bible Dictionary, for example...

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

2006-08-17T14:23:04Z

RockOfVictory: Archive 3

In a monastery, a '''[[trapeza]]''' (or ''refectory''), is the dining hall where monks and pilgrims gather for food and conversation. The OrthodoxWiki trapeza serves as the main discussion point for our website. Please feel free to join in - ask anything, suggest an idea, make a comment. We're glad to have you here. For other, more specifically designated discussion pages, check out the [[OrthodoxWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]]. [[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 1|Archive 1]], Feb - Dec 2005 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Anything_Goes&oldid=22917 Anything Goes] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 2|Archive 2]], Feb 2005 - Aug 2006 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Questions&oldid=37973 Questions] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 2|Archive 3]], Oct 2005 - Aug 2006 (moved from [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=37962 Talk:Main Page])

<center>
{| style="border: solid 1px #aaaaaa"
|'''[http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza&action=edit&section=new Add new post]'''
|}
</center>

==Barnstar==
'''Asserted:''' We need to have an OrthodoxWiki [[w:Wikipedia:Barnstars|barnstar]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 20:06, August 16, 2006 (CDT)
:Go for it! — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

==Project Ideas==
Check out the discussion of project ideas at [[OrthodoxWiki:Project Ideas]].

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

Talk:Main Page

2006-08-17T14:21:40Z

RockOfVictory: Moved to Trapeza

{| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE; width: 100%"

|'''This page is for only for discussing the layout and content of the Main Page.''' Please use the [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza]] for general site discussion. Use the + tab at the top of this page if you want to add a discussion topic about the Main Page.
|}

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 3

2006-08-17T14:15:15Z

RockOfVictory:

'''This is an archive of past discussions. Please use the main Trapeza page to resurrect any of these topics.'''
----

== TOC ==

ISTM that having no Table of Contents on the Main Page is a good idea. What do you think? {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:33, 26 October 2005 (CDT)

:I put '''<nowiki>__NOTOC__</nowiki>''' in, but when I tried to check it, it looked like I broke the wiki. I reverted, but that didn't help anything, so I figured it was still in "update" status. In other words, I agree with you. [[User:Magda|{{User:Magda/sig}}]] 20:51, 26 October 2005 (CDT)

==Dissapointment==
This wiki seems to have a TON of stuff on church history, yet hardly has anything on the foundations of the faith ([[Jesus Christ]], [[Trinity]]). Not only is there very little on the Jesus Christ article, there are no other articles relating to him (resurrection, ascension, life and ministry, etc...). I fear this site is getting too caught up in history, and I hope you can build solid foundations before you become more broad and general. Just my two cents. [[User:J23|J23]] 00:11, 31 October 2005 (CST)

: Part of it is, I think, that our current contributors feel less qualified to work on such articles and so they are being approached with much more caution. Feel free to assist in those areas. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 05:48, 31 October 2005 (CST)

==Featured Article==
If I may ask of the featured article to be changed (it has been a little while), I also proffer suggestions: [[Afterfeast]], [[Autocephaly]], [[Basil the Great]]. No vested interest - pretty much anything will do, just to get it cycling again. -- [[User:Pistevo|oea]] 00:06, 3 November 2005 (CST)

::Agreed! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

:: Yes, please do so. I don't really have the time right now to continue to maintain this as I have. I've been hoping that others would join in. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 15:03, 3 November 2005 (CST)

"Strictly speaking, Byzantine Chant is the sacred chant of Christian Churches following the Orthodox rite."
I am sorry, but I can't accept this at all, as it is a big historical error.
We may only say "following actually the Eastern Orthodox rite".
Gallican, Syriac and so on existed before the raise of a particular Byzantine sacred chant. 300 years before Constantinople, the Church was already Orthodox.
If someone do not agree, this would mean he thinks saint Paul or saint Irenaeus of Lyon were heterodox..
-- [[User:Stmaterne|StMaterne]]

: Interestingly, what we now know as Byzantine chant essentially came out of the Syriac church. The vast majority of what now makes up the hymnography and music of the Orthodox Church came from the ascetic life in Syria.

: Anyway, if you disagree with the article, perhaps you could address your concerns on its talk page? {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 15:36, March 17, 2006 (CST)

== Calendar ==

We can get the Old Calendar saints on the main page also. The free script is at http://www.duke.edu/~aa63/menologion.html

::You're busted for authorial promotion [[User:Aleks|Aleks]]!! Not sure how to integrate the script onto an OrthodoxWiki page -- maybe through an [[OrthodoxWiki:Extensions|extension]]? If you can figure it out, let me know. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

== Please... ==

No pink. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 22:28, November 23, 2005 (CST)

Ok, ok! Maybe beige? Something warm. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

P.S. I thought you were going to say that. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Add Bulgarian saints==
How to (would you) add Bulgarian saints on front page? --[[User:Marzata|Marzata]] 13:51, January 7, 2006 (CST)
:Answered on Marzata's Talk page. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 16:55, January 7, 2006 (CST)

==St. Sava commemoration==
This is Alexi. May I ask you to mention on today's feasts that 27 january in Serbia and Montenegro, and wherevr Serbs live, is St. Sava's Day, one of the most important church holidays for Serbs! [[User:Alexi|Alexi]]

:Does that work for everyone? {{User:Magda/sig}} 08:53, January 27, 2006 (CST)

: Well, our calendar system for fixed feasts is necessarily New Calendar, since I don't think the wiki can automatically support a -13 on its day calculation. (St. Sava's day is the 14th of January.) {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 12:56, January 27, 2006 (CST)

==Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias==

May I open a discussion on the appropriateness or otherwise of insisting on Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias (MCB) at all times on OrthodoxWiki (OW).

To my mind this often takes OW out of step with current attitudes and trends within the Mainstream Orthodox Churches (MOC) themselves.

One example is OW's rejection of my use of Pre-Chalcedonian to describe those Orthodox Churches which had difficulty accepting the decisions of Chalcedon being enforced on them by Imperial troops. Mainstream Orthodox Churches are using the term Pre-Chalcedonian in preference to Non-Chalcedonian (the term currently used on OW). Pre-Chalcedonian is a neutral non-offensive term for those who did not agree to the emperor's dictat.

For instance, in April 2006 Moscow decided to formally visit the Chalcedonian Christological problem in great depth, and set up a Select Committee to investigate current notions[http://www.antiochian.org.au/content/view/465/6/]. The Holy Synod of Moscow also uses the term Pre-Chalcedonian in preference to the emotive and biased term Non-Chalcedonian.

chrisg 2006-05-29-1440 EAST

:Hi chrisg - Sure, you can open the discussion! Do you have any other examples of how MCB is out of step with the MOC? I think a discussion on the nuances and history of the two terms, if worded properly, would be an excellent addition to one of the articles dealing with these questions. For my part, I don't see non-Chalcedonian as derogatory at all, or very emotive. My understanding is that this term is used instead of the more polemical "monophysite" or even "so-called monophysite." I haven't been exposed to the term pre-Chalcedonian before. I don't think I'd prefer it, since I don't think it's possible to roll back the clock -- in this way it seems dishonest. On the other hand, I like the idea that the "Oriental Orthodox" churches haven't so much directly rejected Chalecedonian Christology, but were cut off from full participation by Imperial powers. {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

The recent French articles by mainstream Orthodox I have read in hardback, use the term Pre-Chalcedonian (in French).

The hierarchs and priests of the Pre-Chalcedonian Churches in Australia, all object to the term Non-Chalcedonian. [[Eastern Hierarchs]] chose to always use Pre-Chalcedonian because it is not loaded. I don't think the Pre-Chalcedonians are trying to roll back the clock. And the Chalcedonians in Australia who do talk with them, do not see them as trying to do that either. Their theology is fully Orthodox if measured in pre-Chalcedonian terms. To call them monophysite is not polemical, it is just plain wrong, since they themselves condemn any denial of the union of two in the one hypostases.

Monophysite is a Greek term. It was wrong in the first place to try to impose a Greek term on Coptic speakers, and Syriac speakers, without fully explaining the nuances of all related terms, and hearing the nuances of the related Coptic and Syriac terms.

Until we have a balanced understanding of all sides of the discussion, we cannot have a full understanding of this aspect of Christology. If we go into the discussion insisting our philhellenic viewpoint is right, then we perpetuate the impossibility of full understanding.

Saying a decision is correct because it was made by majority vote, is fraught with great danger, especially when it comes to doctrine. With doctrine, decisions should be by consensus of the whole Church. If consensus cannot be reached, then the time for that definition is not right.

That was the great tragedy of the councils. The emperors insisted on doctrinal unity. Constantine did not really care which way the decision went, he just wanted doctrinal unity, so people would stop fighting about it. Of course, the result was worse. Each time a council forced a decision, institutional division resulted. Islam succeeded against Christianity because the Eastern Roman Empire resorted to force of arms against its own people to force obedience to conciliar decrees on Christian doctrine. Egypt was estranged. Syria was estranged. Islam succeeded against these Christian provinces, because they were internally weakened by imperial forcing of doctrinal "unity".

The sooner we get out of our castles and meet out in the open, the sooner we can put this warlikeness behind us, and get on with the first and the second great commands. Many think Christ's commands are more important than perpetuating divisions arising from imperial motivation.

We must look for and see the other viewpoints, and try to be less offensive, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

chrisg 2006-05-29-1621 EAST

:Dear Chris G.,
:I've read repeatedly the term "Eastern ''non-Filioquist'' Tradition" in many places, and being offended or thinking that the guys who wrote it tried to offend me never even crossed my mind ... should it have? The language barrier is not, in my own dis-honest opinion :-) , a valid one -- should we accept the Filioque because the poor-little-Latins didn't have different terms for the temporary-versus-eternal movement of the Holy Ghost, but used the Latin "processio" for the both of them? (Who knows, maybe they weren't ready ... maybe the Church wasn't ready ... maybe God was caught off-guard ...) FOR EXAMPLE, Georgia was cut off, historically and geo-politically, for 1.000 years from the rest of Orthodoxy ... and yet, 1.000 years later, there they were, fully Orthodox ...
:But why am I comparing the Catholics with the Orientals? (One guess could be that there are only 2 Christian Churches that use IV Ezra: Romans and Ethiopians :-) ... but that's not it, however). The reason is that there seams to be an analogy in the way that they both connect to Eastern-Orthodoxy:
: 1) the '''Catholics''' say that their Pneumatology is fully-compatible with that of the Church-Fathers, -- i.e. "from the Father ''through'' the Son" and "from the Father ''and'' the Son" -- (and then add that the whole fuzz was actualy just some HUUUGE ''miss''understanding, ... ''especially'' for political reasons and cultural alienation, etc.) then the Orthodox ask them: "But aren't You then somewhat diminishing the Holy Ghost's personality with regard to the first two Persons in the Trinity?" -- to which the Catholics say: "Nooo! ... offcourse NOT! ... who gave You ''that'' idea?!" ... and then, the next thing You know is that they take out the Epiklesis from the Liturgy, because "the Words of the Institution are all You need, because the ancients allways thaught that the Word of God was the agent of His own Incarnation in the Virgin's whomb, and the word spirit was aplied to Christ in that particular Gospel-verse ('the Holy Spirit shall descend upon You') and it was regarded as aplying to the Holy Ghost only 3 centuries later, by the Constantine-sponsored synod". -- to which the Orthodox reply "Ooooo-kaaayyy ... have it Your way ..."
: 2) the '''Orientals''' say "Wel, You see, it's all just some BIIIG ''miss''understanding, because we had the same word for <person> and <nature>" (just like the Romans said "we don't have special words for <ekporeusis>") -- to which the Orhodox reply: "But ''practically'' speaking, You do believe that Christ had a human ''nature'' with which He died on the Cross, and a divine one, which is by its very ''nature'' immortal?" -- to which they reply: "Yeah, man, offcourse ... deep-deep down we're still brothers and all that ... " -- and then, the next thing You know is that they take out the pouring of the water in the wine, which should happen twice during the Liturgy ... and which, by the way, shows Christ's ''true'' death on the Holy and Life-Giving Cross (because the separation of plasma from hardened-blood is a very clear sign of death -- it was when the Gospels were written, ... and it still is now).
: 3) IF You think that ''it's just words'', please note that Origen, FOR EXAMPLE, (who was a heretic, I know, but in this example he's fully Orthodox), was speaking with a priest who said "there are two Gods" -- but he didn't went "mad", but instead simply asked the priest (to find out IF he was indeed ill in dogma, OR was just at a loss of words in describing the mistery of our wonderfull God) ... and when he found out he was just using a defectuous expression (i.e., he wasn't denying the Unity of the Godhead), he mildly corrected him and said a few words of advice as to how we should be more carefull with our speech, so as not to be "stambling-stones" and not to leave room for confusion.
: THE POINT IS ''if'' it would have been all just a cultural/linguistic problem, ''then'' we probably wouldn't have today Miaphysitism, or Roman-Catholicism.
: -- in the end '''I just hope that this is not insulting to anyone''' ... I think the way in which I expounded my ideas clearly shows that -- [[User:Luci83ro|Luci83ro]] 13:10, July 6, 2006 (CDT)
::Who told you this? In the Coptic (Oriental) Orthodox mass, we do add water to wine. Have you ever attended a Coptic mass before? See, for example, p.17 of http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/liturgy/liturgy_of_st_basil.pdf (quoting it, "the wine is
mixed with water as the mixture of the blood and water poured out of Jesus side when He was on the cross.")

==Adding links for new saint articles on their commemoration date?==
I was just looking at the saints for today, June 3, and I noticed that Kevin of Glendalough was one of them. I think his article was just added a week or so ago, and there's not a link to this article off the main page saint commemorations for today. Solutions? [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 09:50, June 3, 2006 (CDT)

:Hi Gabriela, Please do go ahead and add him -- Just click on the date "June 3" to find the right page. Thanks, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

==Content for newcomers==
May I suggest adding [[Orthodox Media]] and [[Magazines_and_Publications]] somewhere on the main page. Possibly under Other on the list to the right? --[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe Rodgers]] 01:39, 16 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: The list on this page has mainly been used for categories, and both of those links are already connected with [[:Category:Links]]. What do the rest of y'all think? ——[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 08:17, 16 Jun 2005 (EDT)

:: Sounds good. Sorry if I seem a little zealous (careless?). I would think that things like this would be of interest to "seekers" and might warrant a prominent placement. --[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe Rodgers]] 10:55, 16 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: I think there's definitely some merit in the idea. My main concern is that I don't want to promise content by having it prominent and then not deliver, so to speak. Many visitors explore a site once and assume what they see there is all there will ever be. Perhaps the cure for this problem is to develop articles about various Orthodox media so that they can be included in categories. ——[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 12:19, 16 Jun 2005 (EDT)

:: Perhaps we should start a series, similar to the [[Orthodoxy in America]], that has to do with an [[Introduction to Orthodox_Christianity]] for "seekers" or newcomers. I guess part of my original intent was to address newcomers who come to our home page and are immediately looking for tangible ways to learn more about Orthodoxy. I know that one way I have learned a lot was through online [[Orthodox Media|media]] and [[Magazines and Publications|publications]], although those are external sources from this Wiki. Maybe I should start moving this over to [[OrthodoxWiki:Suggestions|Suggestions]] --[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe Rodgers]] 12:46, 28 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: That was actually the idea of the [[Introduction to Orthodox Christianity]] article, that it would serve as an overview with component articles explaining fundamental concepts and practices. I think it would be great to develop a template for it, as well. ——[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 13:00, 28 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== Fundamentalist Wiki? ==

Is this some sort of fundamentalist Christian Wiki? [[User:Sharp Shooter|Abbas bin Quasar Hidayatullah]] 06:54, July 15, 2006 (CDT)

: Nope! Fundamentalism is a form of Protestantism. OrthodoxWiki is dedicated to [[Orthodox Christianity]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 08:58, July 15, 2006 (CDT)

== Protection ==

I've protected all the templates and the image used permanently on this page to prevent obvious vandalism (such as recently happened). —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 08:21, July 31, 2006 (CDT)

== OrthodoWiki logo for Old Calendarists? ==

http://www.bishopmaximus.com/links_list.php

http://www.bishopmaximus.com/links_body.php?id=11

I don't think this is a correct use of the logo?

--[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 11:30, August 4, 2006 (CDT)

: That's bizarre. That's actually the Bulgarian OrthodoxWiki logo, and I think you're right that it's not a correct use. Perhaps someone who speaks Arabic might be able to contact them. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 11:43, August 4, 2006 (CDT)

::FWIW, The link was written in English, so one would assume that some knowledge of English was present. — edited by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 16:56, August 4, 2006 (CDT)

OrthodoxWiki talk:Trapeza

2006-08-17T13:10:26Z

RockOfVictory: /* New discussion on the bottom */ Made the change

==Refectory instead of Trapeza==
Does anyone really think this page should be named "refectory" instead? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([[User talk:FrJohn|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/FrJohn|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.

: Well, maybe. But most monastic trapezas I've been to have been decidedly short on the chattiness. :) —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 10:23, August 16, 2006 (CDT)

:Yep, but I still would say they do serve as the main social spots for monasteries, wouldn't you? Just maybe not during the actual mealtime. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==New discussion on the bottom==
Most MediaWiki discussions get added to the bottom (like using the + tab on a talk page). I was going to create an "Add new topic" link to this project page, but that wouldn't work well if we want new stuff at the top. Can we change the policy so we add stuff to the bottom? --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 11:04, August 16, 2006 (CDT)

:I think the reason you gave is enough to change things from how I first imagined them. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

DONE. It's been changed. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 08:10, August 17, 2006 (CDT)

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

2006-08-17T13:06:28Z

RockOfVictory: "Add new post" link

In a monastery, a '''[[trapeza]]''' (or ''refectory''), is the dining hall where monks and pilgrims gather for food and conversation. The OrthodoxWiki trapeza serves as the main discussion point for our website. Please feel free to join in - ask anything, suggest an idea, make a comment. We're glad to have you here. For other, more specifically designated discussion pages, check out the [[OrthodoxWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]]. [[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 1|Archive 1]], Feb - Dec 2005 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Anything_Goes&oldid=22917 Anything Goes] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 2|Archive 2]], Feb 2005 - Aug 2006 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Questions&oldid=37973 Questions] page)

<center>
{| style="border: solid 1px #aaaaaa"
|'''[http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza&action=edit&section=new Add new post]'''
|}
</center>

==Barnstar==
'''Asserted:''' We need to have an OrthodoxWiki [[w:Wikipedia:Barnstars|barnstar]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 20:06, August 16, 2006 (CDT)
:Go for it! — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

==Project Ideas==
Check out the discussion of project ideas at [[OrthodoxWiki:Project Ideas]].

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

OrthodoxWiki:Community Portal

2006-08-16T16:36:42Z

RockOfVictory: /* Discussion pages */ Removed old forums

Welcome to the '''OrthodoxWiki Community Portal'''! We're glad you've chosen to stop by, explore and take part in the ongoing work of creating and developing the world's first online community-edited encyclopedia of Orthodox Christianity.

Whatever else a wiki is, it is fundamentally about ''community'', about bringing a group of people together for a particular work or conversation. '''You''' are formally invited to join this conversation and to take a role in shaping it. Your host is [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]], assisted by a team of [[Special:Listadmins|sysops]] to help with the management of the site. Our sysops hail from many jurisdictions all over the world. Many thanks to everyone who has devoted some time towards making this place a valuable resource for people!

==Join in!==
Please feel free to start a new discussion by creating a new article or category. What do you know about? The life of a saint? Do you know some excellent Byzantine chant CDs? An episode from Church History? Share the knowledge! Have you read an excellent book? Post a review. See something missing? Add it! Want to adopt '''OrthodoxWiki''' in a language besides English? Let us know! Driven to submit a new logo? We'd love to see it!

Take a look at the numerous articles we now have in multiple [[Special:Categories|categories]] for some ideas for what we've already been developing, but don't feel limited by what you see there, either.

If you're serious about helping us, please [[Special:Userlogin|register]]. Then click on your user name at the top right of the page to create a custom profile page.

==How to contribute==
Hop right in—just click '''edit''' (at the top of any page or section) to begin. Read the [[Help:Contents|help files]] for details on creating and editing articles. Be sure to take a look at the [[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual|Style Manual]] for our official community standards and guidelines for articles. Test and experiment in the [[OrthodoxWiki:Sandbox|Sandbox]]. Also be sure to take a look at the [[OrthodoxWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]] for news about ongoing projects and as a gathering point for our work here. There is also a [[OrthodoxWiki:Help wanted|help wanted]] page to learn about projects that other users are working on and are looking for help.

Don't worry about messing up or breaking '''OrthodoxWiki'''—your work can always be cleaned up and honed by others, which is part of the spirit of this project. Take a look at existing articles which may be similar to yours, and model yours after those. You may also feel free to grab relevant content from [http://www.wikipedia.org/ Wikipedia] (it's under a free documentation license), "Orthodoxize" and expand on it, and then put it here (be sure to leave in only the links relevant to '''OrthodoxWiki'''). A lot of our starting content came from there.

The WYSIWIG editor helps with most browsers. We also recommend the [http://www.bananeweizen.de/mozilla/wikipedia/firefox_wikipedia.html Wikipedia Extension] for [http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ Mozilla Firefox]. If you're using FireFox, you can also make use of [http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/live-bookmarks.html Live Bookmarks] for quick access to [[Special:Recentchanges|Recent Changes]], [[Special:Newpages|New Pages]], or many of the other [[Special:Specialpages|Special pages]]. An [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/tools/ OrthodoxWiki search engine plugin] is now available for Firefox and related browsers (see [[OrthodoxWiki:Searching]] for details).

This site is shamelessly modelled on [http://www.wikipedia.org/ Wikipedia]. Please visit their [http://meta.wikimedia.org/ Meta-Wiki] for lots of information about how things work around here.

==Community Life==
Add your photo or browse the [[OrthodoxWiki:User gallery]] to see who's around these pages.

Some notes about wiki community living in general can be found at [[UseMod:BarnRaising]] (and [[Wikipedia:Barn raising]])

To get a sense of how we're doing here at OrthodoxWiki, check out [[OrthodoxWiki:Statistics]] and [[Special:Statistics]].

An [[OrthodoxWiki:Chat|OrthodoxWiki IRC channel]], sponsored by [[User:Joe Rodgers]] is now available for community chat. Please [[User_talk:Joe Rodgers|contact him]] if you have any questions.

==Discussion pages==
* '''[[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza]] (The main discussion page, intended to serve as the focal point for community talk)'''
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Inventory]] (Taking stock of the wiki, optimization discussion, etc.)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Roadmap]] (Plans for the future)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Meta Reflections]] (Discussions about the kind of project we're engaged in here)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Administrators]] (Sysop to-do's & general notes for admins)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Categories]] (Organization of articles and categories)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:News]] (Updates about what's happening on OrthodoxWiki)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Reference desk]] (Questions and answers about research subjects)
* [[Category talk:Featured Articles]] (Nominate or contest a [[:Category:Featured Articles|featured article]])

==Notice boards==
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Suggestions]] (Suggestion Box for new articles and projects)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Help wanted]] (A place to solicit help for specific articles and projects)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Buzz]] (reverse links and "what they are saying" )
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual (Importing)#Starting_Points|Starting Points]] - for importing Wikipedia articles

==Community Policies & Guidelines==
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual|Style Manual]]
* [[OrthodoxWiki:FAQs]]
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Templates]]
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Administrators#Spam_Battleplan|Spam Battleplan]]
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Mediation]]
* [[Help:Contents]]
* [[Help:Citing OrthodoxWiki]]
* [[Help:InterWiki links]] - How to use interwiki links, with notes on our customizations; and [[Special:Interwiki]] - a list of all interwiki links

'''Please note:''' Users are not allowed to have more than one account. This is not just to forestall funny business, but also to prevent confusion.

==Copyright and Permissions==
Please see [[OrthodoxWiki:Copyrights]] and [[Help:Image licenses]]. Also, please pay particular attention to the following:

* [[Help:Image_licenses#OCA.org]] - an important note on using images from [http://OCA.org OCA.org]
* [[Help:Image_licenses#Holy_Transfiguration_Monastery]] - using icons from Holy Transfiguration Monastery (Boscobel, WI USA)

For more general information, please see [[wikipedia:Category:Wikipedia_copyright]].

==Who's Who==
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Patron saint]] (''St. [[John of Damascus]], pray for us!'')
* [[:Category:Sysops]] and [[Special:Listadmins]]
* [[Special:Listusers]]

==Newsfeeds for recent pages==
[http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&feed=rss RSS] and [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&feed=atom Atom]. For new pages: [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Special:Newpages&feed=rss RSS] and [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Special:Newpages&feed=atom Atom]. Many other [[Special:Specialpages|Special pages]] also have newsfeeds available (e.g. "popular pages", "users", "wanted pages", etc.). They're a great way to keep up with what's happening on this site.

Category feeds are also now available. Please see [[Help:Newsfeeds]] for more information.

==OrthodoxWiki Images and Link buttons==
Please see [[OrthodoxWiki:Link buttons]].

==See also==
* [[meta:Conflicting_Wikipedia philosophies]]
* [[w:Wikipedia:Wikiquette]]
* [[w:Category:Wikipedia guidelines]]
* [[w:Wikipedia:Assume good faith]]

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

2006-08-16T16:33:35Z

RockOfVictory: Archive 2

OrthodoxWiki:Questions

2006-08-16T16:28:43Z

RockOfVictory: Redirect

#redirect [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza]]

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 2

2006-08-16T16:27:40Z

RockOfVictory:

'''This is an archive of past discussions. Please use the main Trapeza page to resurrect any of these topics.'''
----

This '''Questions''' page is the place to post and answer general questions regarding the work here on '''OrthodoxWiki'''. We hope we can help! For general reference/research questions. please see [[OrthodoxWiki:Reference desk]]

==Skin change==
I don't know about y'all, but I liked the default skin ''without'' the boxes rounded off at the corners. Any chance that could be an option for the default skin? —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 12:57, 10 Sep 2005 (EDT)

:Sure, I could put it in as an option, just for you :-). Give me a little time on this though! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Spoken Word==
I just ran across [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia Wikipedia's Spoken Word Project]. Might there be podcasting in our future??? What do you think? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==What to do?==
Someone (Fr John?) contacted me at Wikipedia and asked me to help out here, but I'm not sure where to start. I've worked on Wikipedia for several years off and one, and it's easy to find things there that need help, but the quality of work I'm seeing here looks much higher, at least at a glance. Is there a ToDo list somewhere, or anything of that sort? [[User:Theophan|Theophan]] 22:20, 26 Feb 2005 (CST)

::Hi Theophan, I'm sorry for the delay in finding this message, but I'm glad to see that others took up the ball on this one. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Timestamp==
Is there a reason that all the timestamps show as CST, even though preferences are set to another time zone? - [[User:Magda|magda]] 10:14, 18 Mar 2005 (CST)

::Hmm... Server time is set to CST, as well as the wiki default (since I'm in Chicago). Maybe to keep all the timestamps in order, they go for the default instead of you local preferences??? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 14:29, 18 Mar 2005 (CST)

==Diptych==
I was reading an [http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=528950 article] about the recent synod in Turkey, and came across the word ''diptych''. I asked my husband about it and he said this usage refers to the commemoration of the Patriarchs, who usually co-commemorate each other (as each local church commemorates the bishop, metropolitan, patriarch, etc.). Any idea why this is called a ''diptych''? --[[User:Magda|magda]] 11:53, 25 May 2005 (CDT)

:Hi magda, the [[wikipedia:diptych|Wikipedia article]] says "A diptych is any object with two flat plates attached at a hinge. These objects were quite popular in the ancient world, since they could record notes and measure time and direction." I assume this was just the commonest medium upon which the names of those commemorated were written.

:As a side note, this page seems to be for OrthodoxWiki related questions. Maybe we should move it to a general Orthodoxy q and A page, kind of like Google Answers? Any more ideas on how to best structure this? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Troparia and other prayers for Saints' entries?==
Given that this Wiki is unabashedly Orthodox, would it be acceptable to try to have appropriate liturgical prayers in each Saint's entry?
:Oops, that was from me [[User:Dogface|Dogface]] 23:02, December 4, 2005 (CST)

: Certainly! We wouldn't want to put the whole akolouthia in, though, just perhaps the [[troparion]] and [[kontakion]], along with a brief excerpt from some other major text from the feast. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 06:30, December 5, 2005 (CST)

::The more the better, as far as I'm concerned -- maybe the Troparion and Kontakion in the entry, as Dcn. Andrew suggested, and then more extensive texts links. We'll just need to make sure we have permission to post whatever texts we do post -- that's very important. Thanks, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

==Calendar of Saints==
I made a couple of entries on Saints, however I don't know how to put links to the articles in the calendar. How should I do this? - [[user:Silentchapel|Silentchapel]]
:[[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual (Church Calendar)]] says to just edit the template for the date. So for [[February 18]] edit [[Template:February 18]]. Hope this helps. - [[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 15:26, April 26, 2006 (CDT)
[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]
[[Category:Help]]

=="You have new messages" flag==

The new messages flag keeps displaying even after I've read the new message on my talk page. It keeps displaying even after I've logged out and logged back in. And it keeps displaying even when I log in later on on my other computer. Normally, the message flag should go off once the new message has been retrieved for the first time. That's certainly how it happens on other sites that use the same wikisoftware, e.g., Wikipedia. --[[User:Aquarius Rising|Aquarius Rising]] 17:49, April 26, 2006 (CDT)

::Not sure what's happening here. I haven't seen problems like this before. Have you clicked the "View new messages" link directly yet? Have you tried to refresh your browser? Not sure what else to say! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 22:38, April 26, 2006 (CDT)

:::I have logged in after several days absence, and there is still a new messages flag regarding those earlier, already read messages. And I did click the view new messages link directly. It's weird. I have never experienced this glitch on Wikipedia, Uncyclopedia or any other wiki site that uses the same software. --[[User:Aquarius Rising|Aquarius Rising]] 08:46, May 4, 2006 (CDT)

:::Not sure what to say about this. Has there been any resolution? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 11:48, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

==Deleting Articles?==
Um, is there any way I can delete an article? I missnamed a couple, so their deletation would be appreciated. [[User:Silentchapel|Silentchapel]]

::Hi Silentchapel,
::You can ask any [[Special:Listusers&group=sysop|sysop]] for help, and let them know the title of the page. Please be aware that some check in more often than others. You can also (as you discovered!) just leave a note on this page too. Thanks, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

:::Thanks Father! Well, the articles that should be deleted are [[Prophet Habbakuk]] (real article is [[Habbakuk]]) and [[Cosmas of Jerusalem]] (real article is [[Cosmas the Hymnographer]]). Sorry for causing all the trouble, it is just so fun to improve wiki. :->

:::: Done. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 20:42, April 27, 2006 (CDT)

==Stub==

Hmm, I've been having repeated problems with making pictures I've uploaded into stubs in my articles. Please see [[Edict of Milan]], and then tell me what the heck I'm doing wrong! Thanks so much. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 11 May, 2006, 12:46 (CST)

:Try "thumb" instead. :) Again, good work on the article! (Don't worry. The wiki syntax takes a little while to get used to.) {{User:Magda/sig}} 12:51, May 11, 2006 (CDT)

:Hmm, that deserves a "duh" response. Don't I feel like a complete idiot! Ah, well, it's good for my sense of humility. Thanks again. I see you also did some minor but quite useful editing. I'm learning. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 15:02, May 11, 2006 (CST)

==Calendar links==
Sorry if someone already asked this, but I wouldn't it be more logical for calendar entries only to contain links for actual Saint entries, as opposed to Saints and a large number of links that tend to lead to [[Saint titles]] article? For example, if someone wanted to read on St. Theodore the Sanctified, the entry looks like this: [[Saint]] [[Theodore the Sanctified]], the [[disciple]] of [[Venerable]] [[Pachomius the Great]]. Depending on where the person clicks (on name or title) it will lead to two different articles, and somoene who isn't proficient at using OrthodoxWiki probably wouldn't know that seemingly one link leads to two different articles. [[User:Silentchapel|Silentchapel]]

:Well, when we were starting to put the calendar pages together, we had more pages for the title kinds of things than for the hagiographical articles. Also, many of the titles themselves may provoke curiosity, for instance "venerable": I found out why some saints are called that when I was working on the calendar. Because the calendar templates are viewed on the main page, it seemed that they should be accessible to the broadest number of people, including those who do not know what a saint is. I tried to make sure that the titles were only linked once per day. Perhaps there should be another way of emphasizing the names of the saints of the day? {{User:Magda/sig}} 07:36, May 18, 2006 (CDT)

==skete.com==
Hmm, I'm trying to use an icon from skete.com, but they have the site locked so that you can't right click on the images and pull up a menu to save it to the hard drive. Basically, I can't put it on my computer, so I can't upload it and post it here. What am I missing about how everyone else managed to upload the skete images? [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 10:38, 23 May, 2006 (CDT)
:Ok, update. I managed to circumvent the skete site (though I'm still giving them credit in the image license) by searching on google and finding the same icon on religiousmall.com, which wasn't locked so you couldn't put it on your hard drive. Still, I'm sure there's an easier way. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 10:52, 23 May, 2006 (CDT)

:I look at the page's source (ctrl-U on Firefox; not sure about your browser) and search for "jpg". It's usually the 2nd hit or so, often with an "alt" tag with the saint's name. I then use the text from the "src" field, add it to the end of http://www.skete.com/ and, hey, presto! you have the image's URL. You can then right-click and save to your heart's content. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:58, May 23, 2006 (CDT)

==IRC Channel==
Just wondering if any of ya'll have given thought on creating an IRC channel for Orthodoxwiki. I was considering it, but I thought it best to ask my fellow Orthodoxwikians before taking on the endeavor myself. Does anyone have suggestions? Server locations? Does this sound like a good idea?
[[User:Mike|Mike]] 17:40, 2 June, 2006 (CDT)

:Check out [[OrthodoxWiki:Chat]]. There's an IRC channel sponsored by [[User:Joe Rodgers]]; I'm not sure how active it is, but I've used it once. —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 07:32, June 8, 2006 (CDT)

==Commons Image tags==
Sorry, but I'm still bad with this copyright bureaucracy stuff. From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), if I'm using an icon from htm or skete, then all I need to do is add the skete.com/htm tag, not the limited one. But if I want to use an image from Wikimedia commons, I believe I'm supposed to use both the commons tag and whatever other tag the page has (GNU, public domain, creative commons, etc.). Is this correct? [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 16:04, June 3, 2006 (CDT)

: Yes. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 16:07, June 3, 2006 (CDT)

== OW discussions need consolidation ==

I think we've got a few too many "[[OrthodoxWiki:Community_Portal#Discussion_pages|Discussion pages]]" on OrthodoxWiki. ''Every'' article has a discussion page, so shouldn't we just focus on one or two "first stop" discussion pages and then point to the others from there? Otherwise, the community gets splintered and there's no central meeting place. Wikipedia has a [[w:Wikipedia:Village_pump|Village pump]] for it's central meeting place. We could convert one of the existing discussion pages here (e.g. [[OrthodoxWiki:Questions]]) into a central pump that everyone can get used to visiting regularly to check up on the pulse of the wiki. The intro on the page can read something like

<blockquote>Please use this as a jumping-off point for any question or point you'd like to raise. It is recommended that you start a discussion on a page relating to your question first; then link to it from here if you're not getting enough participation.</blockquote>

In the future, we may want to break up the "pump" into the currently divided pages, but for now, I don't think we've got a big enough crowd to warrant that many different "Discussion pages". Instead, I would be glad to go ahead and do some massive archiving and page merges to centralize the discussion (including merging most of the content from [[Talk:Main Page]]); I'll go into details on that if I end up getting some positive feedback on this topic. Another idea is to have an additional page that periodically consolidates any "Ongoing issues" that haven't been resolved on the main "pump"; this is [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Ongoing_issues how we do it at Wikible].

This is related to the [[OrthodoxWiki:Categories]] discussion you're having, too. That page is an example of a topic that doesn't need it's own "Discussion page" linked from the Community Portal. Just create something like [[:Category:Categories]] (the root category at Wikipedia) and use its discussion page. I would be glad to help structure a nice OrthodoxWiki category tree.

While I'm here, let me just say a big thanks to everyone's efforts at OrthodoxWiki. It's exciting to be working with people who have both the skills and commitment to make such a great website to the glory of Jesus Christ! --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:05, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

:I think this is a great idea, especially for the more general (non-article specific) discussions. Many of the regulars, I expect, keep up with all the various discussions via RSS or the Recent Changes page, but a more centralized system would be helpful. I'm not yet convinced about the need for a detailed category tree, although I'm definitely open to the idea. We already have [[Special:Categories]], for example, and the [[Main Page]] functions as a kind of root-level for a category tree. I'd love to hear from some of the other sysops on this (and anyone else who wants to chime in). Finally, thanks for your kind words about OrthodoxWiki! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]
:P.S. Hope you don't mind that I quoted your comment [[OrthodoxWiki:Buzz#It's_exciting|here]].

::Hehe, I saw that quote. If I had the foresight, I would have come up with something more intellectual to say; too late now ;-) I've never been a fan of Special:Categories since there is no taxonomy associated with it (other than being in alphabetical order, of course). --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 12:31, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

: We honestly don't really use these discussion pages all that much, probably because the admins have the listserv. Consolidation here is fine with me, though not if we're talking about the individual talk pages for articles. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 14:20, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

::'''Against'''. What kind of consolidation are we talking about? ISTM that talk pages for specific article pages are so because ''they are about that specific article''. Combining this with the unfortunate fact that people often don't know the OW standard for talk pages (tabs, sigs), and for the foreseeable future this will continue to be the case, article talk pages seem to be the best way to go.
::That being said, consolidating the smaller talk pages, considering that most of the issues raised have been sorted, would avoid this problem. However, either way it's a lot of effort, and I honestly don't think it's worth it: there are no security issues, no space issues; in short, it's all about aesthetics, and it's a lot of work by someone for little benefit and what will amount to being inconvenient consolidation archiving. — edited by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 17:13, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

2006-08-16T16:26:24Z

RockOfVictory: Archive 1 (Anything Goes)

OrthodoxWiki:Anything Goes

2006-08-16T16:23:36Z

RockOfVictory: Redirect

#redirect [[OrthdoxWiki:Trapeza]]

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 1

2006-08-16T16:21:35Z

RockOfVictory:

'''This is an archive of past discussions. Please use the main Trapeza page to resurrect any of these topics.'''
----

'''Anything Goes:''' The name says it all.

== Frappr! map ==

Add your [[parish]] to the Frappr! map. No individuals please, only parishes.

*Go to the [http://www.frappr.com/orthodoxchurch group page]
*Click on [http://www.frappr.com/orthodoxchurch#addyourself Add Yourself]
*Under Name, type your parish name and jurisdiction, e.g. St. John The Baptist Church (GOARCH)
*Under Zipcode, type your parish zipcode (where the parish is located)
*Uncheck the "Create a Free Frappr Account for me." You don't need this.

==Seeking Eastern Orthodox unity in America==
Nice article:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arbible/message/25758

== Coptic Christians celebrate the New Year on Sept. 11. ==
07:16 PM CDT on Friday, September 9, 2005

* http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticchristians.htm

Many mark the day by attending church services in the morning and enjoying special foods. Mark the day yourself by visiting this site to learn more about this ancient branch of Christianity.

"Coptic" refers to the Egyptian Christian church.

Christians represent 13 to 15 percent of Egypt's population; Copts also worship at hundreds of Coptic churches throughout the world.

This site's historic overview tells how the Coptic church traces its existence to the Holy Family's visit to Egypt, as recounted in the book of Matthew. St. Mark founded the church during the first century, preaching until his martyrdom in Alexandria around the time that Nero ruled Rome.

A few interesting tidbits: The Coptic church is credited with creating the first Christian monasteries, an Egyptian tradition with pre-Christian origins. The Coptic Orthodox Church's clergy is headed by Pope Shenouda III, the Pope of Alexandria.

Typical Sunday worship for Coptic churches starts at 6 or 6:30 a.m. and lasts from four to six hours. And you thought Baptist preachers were long-winded.

Mary A. Jacobs (Dallas Morning News News for Dallas, Texas Religion)

==You know this is a good idea when...==

...you revisit work you did on OrthodoxWiki to help you with your seminary homework.

[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]]

...you put up a page on Orthodoxwiki so you can link to it when you're posting to your blog. [[User:Magda|{{User:Magda/sig}}]] 17:40, 30 Jul 2005 (EDT)

==Custom signatures for discussion pages==
Moved to [[Help:Custom signatures]]

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

OrthodoxWiki talk:Trapeza

2006-08-16T16:04:08Z

RockOfVictory: Add to bottom instead

OrthodoxWiki:Reference desk

2006-08-16T15:57:04Z

RockOfVictory: Help desk --> Trapeza link changed

This page is for '''general reference/research questions'''. For questions about OrthodoxWiki's community, software or policies, please see [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza]].

Indicate whether you would prefer to be contacted by email or by a message on your User_talk page. If you do not indicate a preference, replies will be given to both, and a link to your talk page posted here to indicate that your question was answered.

'''If you signed up to OrthodoxWiki with an email address, you do NOT need to post your email address again here.''' On each user page, there is a toolbar on the left with a link to email you without revealing your email address to the sender. Any email address placed "out in the open" on the internet will draw spammers, and we don't want you to be a victim.

This page will be archived periodically.

==Unanswered Questions==

===St. Catherine's, Sinai and the Burning Bush?===
[[Image:BurningBush.jpg|right|thumb|The Burning Bush at Sinai]]
::''I received this question by email today. Maybe someone can help? Thanks,'' {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

Dear OrthodoxWiki Friends,

May the Peace of our LORD Jesus Christ be with you. I work as a tour guide in Egypt and have been many times to the blessed monastery of St. Catherine in Mount Sinai, but I've got some questions, could you please help me to find their answers?
# How can we prove that the " Burning Bush" in Mount Sinai, is the original one?
# what kind of a tree is it?
# where can I find a comperhensive article about the monastery of St. Catherine?

Always Glory to God. God Bless you and thank you for your help!

::Seeing as no one has responded yet, let me take a few stabs at this. 1. We have it on the authority of oral tradition. I'm not sure how to prove this scientifically. 2. I've heard some talk about the kind of tree (bush) before - I would check a good, Western-style Bible commentary here. 3. Our OrthodoxWiki article on St. Catherine's is at [[St. Catherine's Monastery (Sinai)]]. You can explore the links from there, or try Google. Hope that helps! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 13:37, August 5, 2006 (CDT)

::P.S. I'm going to leave this in "unanswered questions for a little while to see if anyone else wants to fill in some of the gaps.

:::We had this recent discussion about the same topic [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arbible/message/32561 here]. The Arabic name is the same used in Luke 6:44 ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramble bramble bush العليقة]). --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 13:52, August 5, 2006 (CDT)
:::[http://www.geographia.com/egypt/sinai/burningbush.htm Rubus Sanctus]. --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 14:03, August 5, 2006 (CDT)

=== St. Chrysostomos' homily on the Finding of the Cross ===

Can this homily be found on the internet in the original language or a translation in english or latin ? I did not find it.
Thanks - [[User:Pat|Pat]]



==Answered Questions==
===December 2005===
I was wondering if anyone here might know the History of The Cathedral Church of The Holy Resurrection in the Bronx, New York.

My Jurisdiction knows the land was sold my Dimitray Propheta (Archbishop Walter Propheta's father) to Church of The Holy Resurrection, Inc. in 1930.

I would like to know what Jurisdiction this Church was affiliated with and who it was under when Archbishop Propheta became Dean of Priests there in 1958.

This will greatly assist me in the history of The American Orthodox Catholic Church, (Propheta) I am compiling.

Thank you.

[[User:BishopMark|Bishop Mark]] markp_13601 ''at'' yahoo ''dot'' com

''An answer has been added to [[User talk:BishopMark|your user talk page]] and sent to your email address by [[User:Magda|Magda]].
----
I hope this gets posted. I am searching for anyone who may have information as to whether or not Archbishop Walter Myron Propheta of The American Orthodox Catholic Church was ever consecrated as Hierarch by Archbishop Bodhan Schpylka of The Ukranian Orthodox Church.

Thanks for your help. - [[User:BishopMark|Bishop Mark]], markp_13601 ''at'' yahoo ''dot'' com

''An answer has been added to [[User talk:BishopMark|your user talk page]] and sent to your email address by [[User:Magda|Magda]].

== [[Antidoron]] ==

I am an American Roman Catholic, and I recently visited the Balkans. I attended a Greek divine liturgy in Athens. As a Catholic, I am confused by the antidoron. I didn't understand the concept until I read the article here, but I am still confused by the practice. Many people were taking the bread, eating it as they walked or placed it in their pocket. Some even threw pieces to the birds. As a Catholic, I was surprised. Is this common practice? Is feeding the pigeons with it acceptable? Also, should I have taken the antidoron as a Catholic. Although I did not receive communion, could I have under Greek doctrine? I am sorry for so many questions but I am very curious and this seems to be the best place to ask. If anyone is on IRC, I would love to discuss my observations. -- [[User:Psy guy|Psy guy]] 17:26, February 7, 2006 (CST)

::Hi Psy Guy,
::Briefly, the bread is considered blessed, so it should not be thrown away into the garbage. However, it is often considered acceptable to feed it to the birds or pour leftover crumbs under a bush where it won't be trampled underfeet or some other suitable place. Local practices vary, but in many places Antidoron serves a double purpose as a kind of "hospitality bread" that visitors can receive when they do not take the Eucharist. In some parishes, this bread will be given to visitors. Since our churches are not "in communion" with each other, you should not take Communion in an Orthodox church. Some priests may make an exception in cases of dire necessity. If you visit an Orthodox church (and an occasional visit can, according to Catholic teaching, fulfill one's "Saunday obligation") please pray for true reconcilliation between our churches as you witness the pain of separation. Thanks for your interest in all of this, and God bless, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

[[Category:Help]]
[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

User:RockOfVictory

2006-08-15T21:01:13Z

RockOfVictory: http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Christianity_Knowledge_Base:ChristianKM

User talk:RockOfVictory

2006-08-15T20:56:53Z

RockOfVictory: /* Wiki Collaboration */ http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Christianity_Knowledge_Base:ChristianKM

{{welcome}}

—[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 14:42, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

== Wiki Collaboration ==

Greetings RockOfVictory,

I'm going to email you an invite to the rWiki Yahoo group I started. It's got most of the Christian Wiki admins on board, though it hasn't really gone anywhere and has been inactive for some time. You'd be mor ethan welcome to try to revive a discussion there. {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

:Ick! I stopped using Yahoo! Groups about three or four years ago. Why use something like that when we have MediaWiki? I guess Yahoo! serves as good neutral ground, but I still think we could carve out a good MediaWiki "Christian Meta Wiki" home on the web somewhere. Check out [http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Christianity_Knowledge_Base:Community_Portal#An_open_letter_to_users_and_administrators_of_the_various_different_Christian_wikis Ben's thoughts], in particular. CKB may be a good place to do it (1) because you don't have to register to comment and (2) it's Wikia-hosted and will likely have 99% uptime, not to mention that the software is always up to date. On the other hand, the Wikia-hosting limits the kinds of customizations we can make to it; I hate the right-column ads, too! --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 20:32, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

::Hi RockOfVictory,

::I am interested in talking more about this all. Hmm... I guess I like Yahoo Groups for this kind of thing because it's a "push" technology - email comes to me (without tweaking notifications) and the email archives are easily accessible and searchable. Also, because it's private - I think some conversations are better off in private. An email group seems a better genre for this kind of focused discussion.
::Of the things you mentioned about CKB, (1) isn't really an asset in my mind since it makes me think of all the spam battles we've fought on this board, and (2) - 99% uptime is pretty normal nowadays and the Wikia hosting is more of a liability than a plus. The ads bug the heck out of me (esp. for this kind of site) and I find it hard to take a site seriously when it's on that kind of hosted service (maybe a good place to start out, but it's not fully brandable, and can't be configured in a way most relevant to a particular community - no backend access = yikes!). [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 09:23, August 11, 2006 (CDT)
:::P.S. I agree with this comment, at the link you mentioned - "I doubt that different denominations could agree on the topics that the "meta" would have. Instead, I think that it's important just to have a central community of Christian MediaWiki users; focus would be on understanding the resources that each wiki has." As far as I can tell, the most effective central index now is on Wikipedia's "[[w:Christian wikis|Christian wikis]]" page. We also have a page on [[OrthodoxWiki:Other wikis|other wikis]] which could be fleshed out a bit.
:::P.P.S. Just posted a note on rWiki, so we'll see if we get any response.

:Thanks for all your thoughts. I guess we just wait and pray now. By the way, why do you sometimes use [[User:FrJohn/sig]] and other times just the regular <code><nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki></code>? --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:13, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

::That's a good question -- I guess <nowiki>~~~</nowiki> is just quicker, but the template includes an easy link to my talk page - I try to use it when I'm in a discussion and haven't already included a talk page link. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

:While it's not the ideal location for reasons mentioned above, I've at least got us a starting wiki page:http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Christianity_Knowledge_Base:ChristianKM - I chose CKB mainly because anyone can edit it. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 15:56, August 15, 2006 (CDT)

===Gmail chat excerpt===
''Father John and I had a Gmail chat session on Friday and I think it may be insightful to others. You can comment on this directly below, or continue the general collaboration discussion above. The excerpt isn't verbatim; I've cleaned up the formatting and done some copy editing. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 15:17, August 15, 2006 (CDT)''

Friday August 11, 1-2 PM CST

JOHN: I think there are major hurdles to this kind of thing... Not least that a lot of people in each major community don't really want to cooperate with those outside... (I mean among Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox... and more specifically too)

ME: Yes, there are, but I'd say that we shouldn't EXclude other webmasters even though our focus is on MediaWiki

JOHN: Also, many of the issues discussed will be quite different... maybe bill it as a ChristianKM community? "Knowledge management" is a term used in the corporate world for these types of endeavors, more broadly conceived. That would encourage a certain type of thinking... that I'm hungry for, but there's not enough Orthodox interest to pull off.

ME: the share-together type of thinking?

JOHN: Basically, the goal would be to discuss strategies of managing church-based (nonprofit) information, to pull knowledge out of it. I mean the KM type of thinking. It's thinking more philsophically, e.g., about what a wiki really is doing, how it functions within a community. Not just wikis... and how the data/information gathered cvan be turned into something more valuable.

ME: So are you saying this would double up as a ChristianWiki Foundation, too?

JOHN: I don't think a ChristianWiki foundation would really work, at least across the Prot/Cath/Orthodox divide... but I think this type of "interest group" could. The attraction would be that it would bring together people like us looking for ways to strategize about managing knowledge within our specific communtiies... Kind of like a working group, but not geared so much at cooperative efforts as at shared learning, trading tips, brainstorming, etc.

ME: I think that some content could fit into the picture, too, though. Like Public Domain resources. I've seen so many attempts at publishing the KJV, or Easton's Bible Dictionary, for example...

OrthodoxWiki:Other wikis

2006-08-15T20:28:10Z

RockOfVictory: /* Further Afield */ meta --> mw

OrthodoxWiki is just one wiki among many. If you've been captivated by our project here, we encourage you to check out what others are doing as well.

==Other Religiously-based Wikis==
{| align="left" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" style="background-color: #fff"
! colspan="3" align="center" |
|-
| align="center" width="15%" valign="top"|[[Image:Logo wikikto en.jpg|150px]] [http://fr.wikikto.eu L'encyclopédie catholique libre]
| align="center" width="15%" valign="top"|[[Image:Globe 3.gif|60px]] 
[http://wikichristian.org WikiChristian] The Christian Encyclopedia
| align="center" width="15%" valign="top"|[[Image:ChristWiki.png|60px]] 
[http://christ.relately.com ChristWiki] Non-denominational Christian wiki
| align="center" width="15%" valign="top"|
|-
|}
 

[http://wikible.org Wikible] - "A community focused on making a comprehensive encyclopedia of the Bible." 
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_wikis '''More...'''] (Wikipedia: Christian wikis)

==Wikimedia Projects==
{| align="center" cellpadding="2" width="100%" style="text-align:left"
| [[Image:Wikipedia_without_text-35px.png|35x50px|<nowiki></nowiki>]]
| [[wikipedia:Main Page|'''Wikipedia''']] The big mama wiki
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
| [[Image:Wiktionary-logo-en-35px.png|35x50px|<nowiki></nowiki>]]
| [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Main_Page '''Wiktionary'''] Dictionary and thesaurus
| [[Image:Wikibooks_without_text-35px.png|35x50px|<nowiki></nowiki>]]
| [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page '''Wikibooks'''] Free textbooks and manuals
| [[Image:Wikiquote without text-35px.png|35x50px|<nowiki></nowiki>]]
| [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Main_Page '''Wikiquote'''] Collection of quotations
| [[Image:Wikisource-logo-35px.jpg|35x50px|<nowiki></nowiki>]]
| [http://wikisource.org/wiki/Main_Page '''Wikisource'''] The free library
|-
| [[Image:Wikispecies_without_text-35px.png|35x50px|<nowiki></nowiki>]]
| [http://species.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page '''Wikispecies'''] Directory of species
| [[Image:Wikinews-logo2-35px.png|35x50px|<nowiki></nowiki>]]
| [http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Main_Page '''Wikinews'''] Free content news source
| [[Image:Commons without text-35px.png|35x50px|<nowiki></nowiki>]]
| [[commons:Main Page|'''Commons''']] Shared media repository
| [[Image:Wikimedia without text-35px.png|35x50px|<nowiki></nowiki>]]
| [[meta:Main Page|'''Meta-Wiki''']] Wikimedia project coordination
|}

==Further Afield==
* [http://www.cfd-online.com/Wiki/ CFD-Online] - The Computational Fluid Dynamics Wiki
* [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WelcomeVisitors Ward's Wiki] - The very first wiki
* [http://tolkiengateway.net/ Tolkien Gateway] - All about J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

* [[mw:Sites_using_MediaWiki|Sites using MediaWiki]]
* [http://WikiIndex.com WikiIndex - a wiki of wiki, wiki people and wiki ideas]

File:Jeiffel.jpg

2006-08-15T20:22:09Z

RockOfVictory: {{flickr}}

{{cc by-sa}}
{{flickr}}
Personal photo of me on Dec. 31, 2005. "Holding up" the Eiffel Tower. Flickr source: [http://flickr.com/photos/jjd/82077466/ À la Tricia].
[[Category:User Images]]

User talk:RockOfVictory

2006-08-15T20:17:29Z

RockOfVictory: /* Wiki Collaboration */ Gmail chat excerpt

{{welcome}}

—[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 14:42, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

== Wiki Collaboration ==

Greetings RockOfVictory,

I'm going to email you an invite to the rWiki Yahoo group I started. It's got most of the Christian Wiki admins on board, though it hasn't really gone anywhere and has been inactive for some time. You'd be mor ethan welcome to try to revive a discussion there. {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

:Ick! I stopped using Yahoo! Groups about three or four years ago. Why use something like that when we have MediaWiki? I guess Yahoo! serves as good neutral ground, but I still think we could carve out a good MediaWiki "Christian Meta Wiki" home on the web somewhere. Check out [http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Christianity_Knowledge_Base:Community_Portal#An_open_letter_to_users_and_administrators_of_the_various_different_Christian_wikis Ben's thoughts], in particular. CKB may be a good place to do it (1) because you don't have to register to comment and (2) it's Wikia-hosted and will likely have 99% uptime, not to mention that the software is always up to date. On the other hand, the Wikia-hosting limits the kinds of customizations we can make to it; I hate the right-column ads, too! --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 20:32, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

::Hi RockOfVictory,

::I am interested in talking more about this all. Hmm... I guess I like Yahoo Groups for this kind of thing because it's a "push" technology - email comes to me (without tweaking notifications) and the email archives are easily accessible and searchable. Also, because it's private - I think some conversations are better off in private. An email group seems a better genre for this kind of focused discussion.
::Of the things you mentioned about CKB, (1) isn't really an asset in my mind since it makes me think of all the spam battles we've fought on this board, and (2) - 99% uptime is pretty normal nowadays and the Wikia hosting is more of a liability than a plus. The ads bug the heck out of me (esp. for this kind of site) and I find it hard to take a site seriously when it's on that kind of hosted service (maybe a good place to start out, but it's not fully brandable, and can't be configured in a way most relevant to a particular community - no backend access = yikes!). [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 09:23, August 11, 2006 (CDT)
:::P.S. I agree with this comment, at the link you mentioned - "I doubt that different denominations could agree on the topics that the "meta" would have. Instead, I think that it's important just to have a central community of Christian MediaWiki users; focus would be on understanding the resources that each wiki has." As far as I can tell, the most effective central index now is on Wikipedia's "[[w:Christian wikis|Christian wikis]]" page. We also have a page on [[OrthodoxWiki:Other wikis|other wikis]] which could be fleshed out a bit.
:::P.P.S. Just posted a note on rWiki, so we'll see if we get any response.

:Thanks for all your thoughts. I guess we just wait and pray now. By the way, why do you sometimes use [[User:FrJohn/sig]] and other times just the regular <code><nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki></code>? --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:13, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

::That's a good question -- I guess <nowiki>~~~</nowiki> is just quicker, but the template includes an easy link to my talk page - I try to use it when I'm in a discussion and haven't already included a talk page link. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

===Gmail chat excerpt===
''Father John and I had a Gmail chat session on Friday and I think it may be insightful to others. You can comment on this directly below, or continue the general collaboration discussion above. The excerpt isn't verbatim; I've cleaned up the formatting and done some copy editing. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 15:17, August 15, 2006 (CDT)''

Friday August 11, 1-2 PM CST

JOHN: I think there are major hurdles to this kind of thing... Not least that a lot of people in each major community don't really want to cooperate with those outside... (I mean among Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox... and more specifically too)

ME: Yes, there are, but I'd say that we shouldn't EXclude other webmasters even though our focus is on MediaWiki

JOHN: Also, many of the issues discussed will be quite different... maybe bill it as a ChristianKM community? "Knowledge management" is a term used in the corporate world for these types of endeavors, more broadly conceived. That would encourage a certain type of thinking... that I'm hungry for, but there's not enough Orthodox interest to pull off.

ME: the share-together type of thinking?

JOHN: Basically, the goal would be to discuss strategies of managing church-based (nonprofit) information, to pull knowledge out of it. I mean the KM type of thinking. It's thinking more philsophically, e.g., about what a wiki really is doing, how it functions within a community. Not just wikis... and how the data/information gathered cvan be turned into something more valuable.

ME: So are you saying this would double up as a ChristianWiki Foundation, too?

JOHN: I don't think a ChristianWiki foundation would really work, at least across the Prot/Cath/Orthodox divide... but I think this type of "interest group" could. The attraction would be that it would bring together people like us looking for ways to strategize about managing knowledge within our specific communtiies... Kind of like a working group, but not geared so much at cooperative efforts as at shared learning, trading tips, brainstorming, etc.

ME: I think that some content could fit into the picture, too, though. Like Public Domain resources. I've seen so many attempts at publishing the KJV, or Easton's Bible Dictionary, for example...

OrthodoxWiki:Meta Reflections

2006-08-15T20:09:25Z

RockOfVictory: /* See also */ Updated KmWiki link

This is the place for thinking about the project we're engaged in together at OrthodoxWiki.

==Can a wiki be Orthodox? Can Orthodoxy be wikified?==
We received the first major objection to our project today (March 28, 2005):

::For true Orthodox Christians, this is a very dangerous web site. Any nut case or schismatic can edit the material herein and change meanings, change teachings of the True Church, etc. For serious students of Orthodoxy, this site should be avoided...shunned. The teachings of the Holy Church are not subject to willy-nilly editing.
:: Al Green
:: Orthodox church and bible Study Links
:: [http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html]

I invited Al to visit and asked him if he might be willing to share some of the fine work he has done on his website. He voices some common concerns about wikis. I do think it can be difficult for people to grasp the [[Wikipedia:Wiki|wiki concept]] - it can seem counterintuitive at first. One site I'd recommend on this topic is [[UseMod:WhyWikiWorks]] along with its links, especially the page on [[UseMod:SoftSecurity|"soft security"]].

Does anyone else want to say something about this? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

* See also [[Wikipedia:Criticism_of_Wikipedia]]

Sure, I'll jump in. Nothing authoritative, but I have worked on the Orthodox pages of wikipedia off and on.

The same criticism is levelled against wikipedia on the authoritativeness of its content. Many educators will not use wikipedia because they feel that the authority wikipedia wields is compromised by the possibility of mis-content. However, in my experience, wikipedia has been the most informative, unbiased, and authoritative source I can find for many topics. Is it possible for a medium that allows non-experts or non-authorities to mess things up, to itself become a repository of accurate expert, and authoritative knowledge?

I have several things to say to these educators. One is that any source of information should be judged for its authority and bias. Would I trust Encyclopedia Brittanica for the accuracy of all its articles? Of articles on Orthodoxy? Surely not. Would I without question accept any Bishop's word as the voice of the Church, all-holy, and blameless? I know too much Church history to allow me to do that. We do not hold the absolutistic Roman view of Apostolic Succession. Bishops also must be within Holy Tradition, as I understand it, and there have been (thankfully rare) times that the people have been more true to Holy Tradition than their Bishops. I'm not against the Bishops or the office. As most Orthodox, I love my Bishops and think they do a wonderful job. But they don't have the final say in the same way that the Pope has the final say, and that I am glad for as Orthodox. We should never expect a source to be absolutely, without question (even visions of Christ may be the devil!).

These educators are also concerned that popular opinion will trump expert opinion, by being more numerous. This is obviously a fallacy when you realize that wikipedia pages are ongoing discussions. Think about a discussion you have been in where most people, at the beginning of the discussion, believe one thing, and few people believed the right thing. Most often, in my experience, the truth sways opinion far better than popularity, especially if it can be backed up with good reasons and argumentation. I just don't see popularity trumping expert opinion in my experience, except for when the opinions are unstated, unexamined, or assumed. The wiki method, however, is against these factors. And if a mistake is entered into a page, it will get examined and taken out.

I think that the problems of mistrust and feeling betrayed by a medium occur when the wrong expectations are set or assumed about what that medium is supposed to accomplish. Is OrthodoxWiki a voice of the Orthodox people? A voice of Orthodox truth? A voice of the Orthodox hierarchy? A place where non-Orthodox can reliably learn about Orthodoxy? Is this site responsible or, when that responsibility would be compromised, liable for any of these concerns or others?

No. That is a lot to assume on any site, and what people say they are responsible for is not necessarily right either. Can you find the voice of the Orthodox people here? Probably. Can you find the voice of Orthodox truth here? Probably. Can you find the voice of the Orthodox hierarchy here? Probably. Can non-Orthodox learn reliably about Orthodoxy here? Probably. These sort of things tend to happen if you get us all together in the same room.

But what about the undiscerning, lost sheep who can't tell black from white and would walk off a cliff if you let them? What about those who just might find some inadvertent error, or some opinion by a rather non-Orthodox person? They might be corrupted! They might never find the faith!

Is this any different, I ask you, than walking into any Orthodox church and talking to the people there? We are, regrettably, sinful people who must rely upon God's providence and mercy to make up for our shortcomings. Any panic on the part of blind sheep not only betrays an opinion that is probably patronizing to those sheep. Is there anyone truly incapable of judgement or without friends that are incapable of judgement?

But, the argument goes, someone will eventually come along, make misplaced assumptions about this site, and be disillusioned by some bit of content that may not even be representative of most of the efforts of the wiki editors. Yes, unfortunate incidents happen. Sometimes someone in a discussion hears wrong or misunderstands an argument. Sometimes a person catches an Orthodox person in a particularly bad mood and will latch on to whatever that Orthodox says even though there are other Orthodox standing around saying, "No, that's not right." Can we, through extreme carefulness, or through security measures, keep everyone from misinformation? No.

Is wiki more prone to misinformation than an authoritative/security model? No. The authority can be wrong, may have mistyped something, and may definitely be misheard, in which case there is even more possibility of the perception/assumption of authority leading to disillusionment.

Editing within the OrthodoxWiki is also not likely to be "willy-nilly", since the perceived importance and authority of such a site adds to the gravity felt by, and the care taken by, the editor. I know this is true for myself at least, because I very well do know how it may be perceived. I may be wrong, and I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but I think that would go for most of us.

-- Rdr. Patrick

::Thanks for your words, Rdr. Patrick. I wanted to share another criticism we received on the site, this one from [[User:Colin]]:
:::''"I think this orthodoxwiki should demand that people give their real names, their real emails and the name of their Orthodox Priest before they are permitted to post or edit anything. That way, if they behave like this, they can be referred to their bishop. I admit to being shocked that an Orthodox Priest would run this site on any other lines."''
::Does anyone want respond to this? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 22:47, 3 November 2005 (CST)

:::A small response, perhaps.
:::Even if Fr John were to request real names, real emails and the names of real Orthodox priests, it is entirely impossible to verify whether these are, in fact, real names or priests. Fr John is a priest in the [[OCA]], in (if I'm not mistaken) the USA. A delightful country, of course; but there is virtually no chance that he can check the real name of anybody, much less the name of their Orthodox priest. Even in the USA, a random 'Fr James' can belong to, I imagine, dozens of priests from over a dozen different ruling churches, archdioceses, metropolis' and dioceses.
:::And that's just in the USA. Once the [[Wikipedia:Antipodal point|Antipodeans]] start being part of OrthodoxWiki, we get into all sorts of difficults: the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese is, without any doubt, the largest Orthodox Archdiocese in Australia; however, on their website, they have no listing of priests, and the only listing that I am aware of is in book form and in Greek. How is Fr John, or any other sysop, supposed to verify that Fr Amphilochios can speak for me? Or, indeed, that he will? Unless I'm referring to [[Metropolitan]] [[Amphilochios (Tsoukos) of New Zealand|Amphilochios]], of course, verification can't happen.
:::We must remember that this is the internet. It is virtually impossible for a person with an external full-time career to verify a person's identity on the off-chance that they might like to post. And moreover, any person who would comply with this puts themself in danger of their name and exact location being found. And no editing is worth that. -- [[User:Pistevo|oea]] 06:21, 4 November 2005 (CST).

::Thanks for your words Pistevo. Here's a brief response from me:
::About OrthodoxWiki, I can assure you that these kinds of abuses are rare. The kind of requirements you are suggesting are not tenable for us -- they would present too much overhead and quench the site. The sysops do monitor articles to make sure there are not gross theological inaccuracies or personal attacks. Thankfully, these are usually dealt with within a few hours. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 10:50, 4 November 2005 (CST)

== Interesting discussion of the whole WikiPedia concept ==
Just ran across an interesting discussion of the whole WikiPedia concept started by an OpEd piece by one of its co-founders, Larry Sanger. Sanger's article and the ensuing discussion can be found [http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/12/30/142458/25 here].

:Yep, that's interesting. It's definitely worth thinking through these things a little bit. Regarding the concerns brought up in that article, I suspect we have an advantage in that, even if this site takes off wonderfully, we will still be a small community limited in scope, with recognizable "experts" in church life. I think also the sysops/moderators should have a broad enough knowledge of Orthodox matters to be able to tell if something is really off base. Also, we can be stricter in dealing with trolls (although that can certainly be a challenge on an open site like this one). I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on this article with regard to OrthodoxWiki (and perhaps you'd want to login or otherwise identify yourself). Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] 22:36, 20 Jan 2005 (CST)

:: It occurs to me that, aside from what [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] says here (with which I thoroughly agree), the Orthodox Church is by its nature in some ways already prepared in terms of its [[phronema]] to embark on a project like OrthodoxWiki. The whole Church is the guardian of the truth, after all, and we are essentially trying to submit ourselves to the public proclamation of the Gospel, not become researchers in obscure academic fields. Thus, while there are certainly things that are good for specialists and experts to work on for OrthodoxWiki, the real meat of our content is something that we should already in many ways have a consensus on.

:: The other thing that occurs to me is that it's unlikely that OrthodoxWiki would get infected with anti-elitism. The Orthodox Church is hierarchical, and respect and obedience toward authority are a standard, normal part of our Church life. --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 06:13, 21 Jan 2005 (CST)

:One problem with relying on "experts" is our experts are often already wearing too many hats. Some who qualify for that title have already participated and I hope, especially with time, many more will. Of course, the rest of us can happily draw from "experts" in our articles. I think it's great that anyone can contribute. And sometimes, folks who are not "experts" have a great deal more time to delve into the specifics or something, and the rest of us can benefit from that work and knowledge.

:I'm also excited by this OrthodoxWiki project because I think there are still so many things that are oral tradition in the Orthodox Church. I'm not saying that should change, except that by getting some of that down in an organized and written form, it will be accessible to so many more people. Mostly, I think this is for the good - especially when Church life is undergoing tremendous changes across the globe (due to globalization or whatever you want to call it) and there is also an influx of converts who are just learning the ropes. - [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] 15:08, 21 Jan 2005 (CST)

==Knowledge Management / Communities of Practice==
Over time, I think it would be great to broader the concerns introduced by the article above into a more general discussion of the nature, character, and potential of "communities of practice" within Orthodox Church life -- I mean especially the use of emerging technologies for collaborative efforts at knowledge management at the service of the Orthodox Church.

There are many resources on "communities of practice" and "knowledge management" available online and in print. A couple books I've found helpful and thought-provoking include '''''Communities of Practice''''' by Etienne Wengner (ISBN 1578513308) and '''''The Knowledge Landscapes of Cyberspace''''' by David Hakken (ISBN 0415945097).

I think it's a good time to think big and brainstorm about possibilities for the future, e.g. what effect might semantic technologies have on Orthodox KM? I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this (here or at [http://orthodoxweb.org OrthodoxWeb Dev]). [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]]

:To resurrect this discussion, first let me ask what ''was'' OrthodoxWeb Dev? On to the point: I've mentioned some Christian wiki collaboration ideas on my user page. It includes ideas mainly about sharing common resources and information across the Christian "wikiverse". We all have different beliefs about God, but I think that we can at least create a central community to discuss ''how'' we can improve each of our wikis and share the information that we do agree on. --[[User:RockOfVictory|RockOfVictory]] 14:54, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

===See also===
* [http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ Semantic Web Overview]
* [http://kmwiki.wikispaces.com/ KmWiki]
* [http://rhizome.liminalzone.org/ Rhizome] - "a Wiki-like content management and delivery system that exposes the entire site -- content, structure, and metadata as editable RDF. This means that instead of just creating a site with URLs that correspond to a page of HTML, with Rhizome you can create URLs that represent just about anything..."

==Inspirational Reading==
* [http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html The Book Stops Here] - A history of Wikipedia, ''Wired'' 13:03 (March 2005)
:From page 2:
::"What makes the model work is not only the collective knowledge and effort of a far-flung labor force, but also the willingness to abide by two core principles. The first: neutrality. All articles should be written without bias. Wikipedians are directed not to take a stand on controversial subjects like abortion or global warming but to fairly represent all sides. The second principle is good faith. All work should be approached with the assumption that the author is trying to help the project, not harm it.
::"Wikipedia represents a belief in the supremacy of reason and the goodness of others. In the Wikipedia ideal, people of goodwill sometimes disagree. But from the respectful clash of opposing viewpoints and the combined wisdom of the many, something resembling the truth will emerge. Most of the time.''
:Of course, not all of this applies here. We have our own interpretation of neutrality and the role of reason, but it's worth noting the basic similarities between our project and Wikipedia. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

* [[w:Readings to put you in the Wikipedia spirit]] - Some are more applicable to our project than others.

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

File:Jeiffel.jpg

2006-08-11T18:30:26Z

RockOfVictory: Category:User Images

{{cc by-sa}}
Personal photo of me on Dec. 31, 2005. "Holding up" the Eiffel Tower. Flickr source: [http://flickr.com/photos/jjd/82077466/ À la Tricia].
[[Category:User Images]]

User:RockOfVictory

2006-08-11T18:13:25Z

RockOfVictory: Personal photo added: Jeiffel.jpg

[[Image:Jeiffel.jpg|thumb|[http://flickr.com/photos/jjd/82077466/ Me in Paris], Dec. 31, 2005.]]
I am probably one of the few [[Evangelicalism|Evangelical]] (specifically, [[Journeys_to_Orthodoxy#Baptist|Baptist]]) contributors to this site. See my [[Wikipedia:User:RockOfVictory|Wikipedia user page]] for more about me.

I've been exploring several MediaWiki-based resources lately and am trying to '''help the Christian community consolidate information so we're not doing a lot of redundant work with resources'''. I keep shifting from one Christian wiki site to another, mainly in an effort to glean the best aspects of each site and discuss how we can centralize the content more effectively. It's also been fun meeting Christians with different beliefs and visions for the wiki community. I generally try to focus on contributing to Wikipedia, but some topics are considered too specialized (like articles for every verse in the Bible), which is why I've ventured out looking for Christian wikis.

There are two or three other Christian wiki users looking to collaborate across different MediaWiki sites. As of August 2006, we haven't made much progress on creating a central discussion and collaboration website, but I've got high hopes that we can make one! The best we've done is [http://www.wikichristian.org/index.php/Talk:Christian_wikis#Thoughts_from_Ben_.28CKB.29 a discussion on WikiChristian]. The [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rwiki/ rWiki Yahoo! Group] was a good start, but I think we would be better off collaborating within a MediaWiki environment. It seems to be theological opinions that divide us on the content-focus of each Christian wiki; while that is fine, I think it would be worthwhile to share the resources and information that we do have in common and point to the wikis that have been the most technologically innovative on certain topics.

I'm starting to ramble, but I wanted specifically to recommend the Bible wiki sites [http://Wikible.org Wikible.org] (Protestant slant) and [http://bible.tmtm.com BibleWiki] (Wikipedia-like [[Wikipedia:WP:NPOV|NPOV]]) as they've done a good job focusing on a particular Christian topic (i.e. [[Holy Scripture]]). See particularly [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Christian_wikis Christian wikis] and [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Bible_wikis_comparison Bible wikis comparison] on Wikible. I'm aware of the [[Other wikis]] page here, but the Wikible page is much more up-to date and comprehensive.

The Orthodox perspective, in particular, is one that our collaborative efforts are lacking. Please [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:RockOfVictory&action=edit&section=new add a new section to my talk page] if you would like to discuss inter-Christian-wiki collaboration (my talk page isn't limited to collaboration discussion only, of course; use my "E-mail this user" link if you like, as well)...

[[Category:User Pages]]

File:Jeiffel.jpg

2006-08-11T18:03:34Z

RockOfVictory: oops, I used HTML, hehe. Also added license.

{{cc by-sa}}
Personal photo of me on Dec. 31, 2005. "Holding up" the Eiffel Tower. Flickr source: [http://flickr.com/photos/jjd/82077466/ À la Tricia].

File:Jeiffel.jpg

2006-08-11T17:59:21Z

RockOfVictory: Personal photo of me on Dec. 31, 2005. "Holding up" the Eiffel Tower. Flickr source: <a href="http://flickr.com/photos/jjd/82077466/">À la Tricia</a>.

Personal photo of me on Dec. 31, 2005. "Holding up" the Eiffel Tower. Flickr source: <a href="http://flickr.com/photos/jjd/82077466/">À la Tricia</a>.

OrthodoxWiki:Questions

2006-08-11T17:31:55Z

RockOfVictory: /* OW discussions need consolidation */ Special:Categories doesn't have a taxonomy

This '''Questions''' page is the place to post and answer general questions regarding the work here on '''OrthodoxWiki'''. We hope we can help! For general reference/research questions. please see [[OrthodoxWiki:Reference desk]]

==Skin change==
I don't know about y'all, but I liked the default skin ''without'' the boxes rounded off at the corners. Any chance that could be an option for the default skin? —[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 12:57, 10 Sep 2005 (EDT)

:Sure, I could put it in as an option, just for you :-). Give me a little time on this though! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Spoken Word==
I just ran across [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia Wikipedia's Spoken Word Project]. Might there be podcasting in our future??? What do you think? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==What to do?==
Someone (Fr John?) contacted me at Wikipedia and asked me to help out here, but I'm not sure where to start. I've worked on Wikipedia for several years off and one, and it's easy to find things there that need help, but the quality of work I'm seeing here looks much higher, at least at a glance. Is there a ToDo list somewhere, or anything of that sort? [[User:Theophan|Theophan]] 22:20, 26 Feb 2005 (CST)

::Hi Theophan, I'm sorry for the delay in finding this message, but I'm glad to see that others took up the ball on this one. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Timestamp==
Is there a reason that all the timestamps show as CST, even though preferences are set to another time zone? - [[User:Magda|magda]] 10:14, 18 Mar 2005 (CST)

::Hmm... Server time is set to CST, as well as the wiki default (since I'm in Chicago). Maybe to keep all the timestamps in order, they go for the default instead of you local preferences??? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 14:29, 18 Mar 2005 (CST)

==Diptych==
I was reading an [http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=528950 article] about the recent synod in Turkey, and came across the word ''diptych''. I asked my husband about it and he said this usage refers to the commemoration of the Patriarchs, who usually co-commemorate each other (as each local church commemorates the bishop, metropolitan, patriarch, etc.). Any idea why this is called a ''diptych''? --[[User:Magda|magda]] 11:53, 25 May 2005 (CDT)

:Hi magda, the [[wikipedia:diptych|Wikipedia article]] says "A diptych is any object with two flat plates attached at a hinge. These objects were quite popular in the ancient world, since they could record notes and measure time and direction." I assume this was just the commonest medium upon which the names of those commemorated were written.

:As a side note, this page seems to be for OrthodoxWiki related questions. Maybe we should move it to a general Orthodoxy q and A page, kind of like Google Answers? Any more ideas on how to best structure this? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Troparia and other prayers for Saints' entries?==
Given that this Wiki is unabashedly Orthodox, would it be acceptable to try to have appropriate liturgical prayers in each Saint's entry?
:Oops, that was from me [[User:Dogface|Dogface]] 23:02, December 4, 2005 (CST)

: Certainly! We wouldn't want to put the whole akolouthia in, though, just perhaps the [[troparion]] and [[kontakion]], along with a brief excerpt from some other major text from the feast. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 06:30, December 5, 2005 (CST)

::The more the better, as far as I'm concerned -- maybe the Troparion and Kontakion in the entry, as Dcn. Andrew suggested, and then more extensive texts links. We'll just need to make sure we have permission to post whatever texts we do post -- that's very important. Thanks, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

==Calendar of Saints==
I made a couple of entries on Saints, however I don't know how to put links to the articles in the calendar. How should I do this? - [[user:Silentchapel|Silentchapel]]
:[[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual (Church Calendar)]] says to just edit the template for the date. So for [[February 18]] edit [[Template:February 18]]. Hope this helps. - [[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 15:26, April 26, 2006 (CDT)
[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]
[[Category:Help]]

=="You have new messages" flag==

The new messages flag keeps displaying even after I've read the new message on my talk page. It keeps displaying even after I've logged out and logged back in. And it keeps displaying even when I log in later on on my other computer. Normally, the message flag should go off once the new message has been retrieved for the first time. That's certainly how it happens on other sites that use the same wikisoftware, e.g., Wikipedia. --[[User:Aquarius Rising|Aquarius Rising]] 17:49, April 26, 2006 (CDT)

::Not sure what's happening here. I haven't seen problems like this before. Have you clicked the "View new messages" link directly yet? Have you tried to refresh your browser? Not sure what else to say! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 22:38, April 26, 2006 (CDT)

:::I have logged in after several days absence, and there is still a new messages flag regarding those earlier, already read messages. And I did click the view new messages link directly. It's weird. I have never experienced this glitch on Wikipedia, Uncyclopedia or any other wiki site that uses the same software. --[[User:Aquarius Rising|Aquarius Rising]] 08:46, May 4, 2006 (CDT)

:::Not sure what to say about this. Has there been any resolution? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 11:48, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

==Deleting Articles?==
Um, is there any way I can delete an article? I missnamed a couple, so their deletation would be appreciated. [[User:Silentchapel|Silentchapel]]

::Hi Silentchapel,
::You can ask any [[Special:Listusers&group=sysop|sysop]] for help, and let them know the title of the page. Please be aware that some check in more often than others. You can also (as you discovered!) just leave a note on this page too. Thanks, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

:::Thanks Father! Well, the articles that should be deleted are [[Prophet Habbakuk]] (real article is [[Habbakuk]]) and [[Cosmas of Jerusalem]] (real article is [[Cosmas the Hymnographer]]). Sorry for causing all the trouble, it is just so fun to improve wiki. :->

:::: Done. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 20:42, April 27, 2006 (CDT)

==Stub==

Hmm, I've been having repeated problems with making pictures I've uploaded into stubs in my articles. Please see [[Edict of Milan]], and then tell me what the heck I'm doing wrong! Thanks so much. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 11 May, 2006, 12:46 (CST)

:Try "thumb" instead. :) Again, good work on the article! (Don't worry. The wiki syntax takes a little while to get used to.) {{User:Magda/sig}} 12:51, May 11, 2006 (CDT)

:Hmm, that deserves a "duh" response. Don't I feel like a complete idiot! Ah, well, it's good for my sense of humility. Thanks again. I see you also did some minor but quite useful editing. I'm learning. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 15:02, May 11, 2006 (CST)

==Calendar links==
Sorry if someone already asked this, but I wouldn't it be more logical for calendar entries only to contain links for actual Saint entries, as opposed to Saints and a large number of links that tend to lead to [[Saint titles]] article? For example, if someone wanted to read on St. Theodore the Sanctified, the entry looks like this: [[Saint]] [[Theodore the Sanctified]], the [[disciple]] of [[Venerable]] [[Pachomius the Great]]. Depending on where the person clicks (on name or title) it will lead to two different articles, and somoene who isn't proficient at using OrthodoxWiki probably wouldn't know that seemingly one link leads to two different articles. [[User:Silentchapel|Silentchapel]]

:Well, when we were starting to put the calendar pages together, we had more pages for the title kinds of things than for the hagiographical articles. Also, many of the titles themselves may provoke curiosity, for instance "venerable": I found out why some saints are called that when I was working on the calendar. Because the calendar templates are viewed on the main page, it seemed that they should be accessible to the broadest number of people, including those who do not know what a saint is. I tried to make sure that the titles were only linked once per day. Perhaps there should be another way of emphasizing the names of the saints of the day? {{User:Magda/sig}} 07:36, May 18, 2006 (CDT)

==skete.com==
Hmm, I'm trying to use an icon from skete.com, but they have the site locked so that you can't right click on the images and pull up a menu to save it to the hard drive. Basically, I can't put it on my computer, so I can't upload it and post it here. What am I missing about how everyone else managed to upload the skete images? [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 10:38, 23 May, 2006 (CDT)
:Ok, update. I managed to circumvent the skete site (though I'm still giving them credit in the image license) by searching on google and finding the same icon on religiousmall.com, which wasn't locked so you couldn't put it on your hard drive. Still, I'm sure there's an easier way. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 10:52, 23 May, 2006 (CDT)

:I look at the page's source (ctrl-U on Firefox; not sure about your browser) and search for "jpg". It's usually the 2nd hit or so, often with an "alt" tag with the saint's name. I then use the text from the "src" field, add it to the end of http://www.skete.com/ and, hey, presto! you have the image's URL. You can then right-click and save to your heart's content. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:58, May 23, 2006 (CDT)

==IRC Channel==
Just wondering if any of ya'll have given thought on creating an IRC channel for Orthodoxwiki. I was considering it, but I thought it best to ask my fellow Orthodoxwikians before taking on the endeavor myself. Does anyone have suggestions? Server locations? Does this sound like a good idea?
[[User:Mike|Mike]] 17:40, 2 June, 2006 (CDT)

:Check out [[OrthodoxWiki:Chat]]. There's an IRC channel sponsored by [[User:Joe Rodgers]]; I'm not sure how active it is, but I've used it once. —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 07:32, June 8, 2006 (CDT)

==Commons Image tags==
Sorry, but I'm still bad with this copyright bureaucracy stuff. From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), if I'm using an icon from htm or skete, then all I need to do is add the skete.com/htm tag, not the limited one. But if I want to use an image from Wikimedia commons, I believe I'm supposed to use both the commons tag and whatever other tag the page has (GNU, public domain, creative commons, etc.). Is this correct? [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 16:04, June 3, 2006 (CDT)

: Yes. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 16:07, June 3, 2006 (CDT)

== OW discussions need consolidation ==

I think we've got a few too many "[[OrthodoxWiki:Community_Portal#Discussion_pages|Discussion pages]]" on OrthodoxWiki. ''Every'' article has a discussion page, so shouldn't we just focus on one or two "first stop" discussion pages and then point to the others from there? Otherwise, the community gets splintered and there's no central meeting place. Wikipedia has a [[w:Wikipedia:Village_pump|Village pump]] for it's central meeting place. We could convert one of the existing discussion pages here (e.g. [[OrthodoxWiki:Questions]]) into a central pump that everyone can get used to visiting regularly to check up on the pulse of the wiki. The intro on the page can read something like

<blockquote>Please use this as a jumping-off point for any question or point you'd like to raise. It is recommended that you start a discussion on a page relating to your question first; then link to it from here if you're not getting enough participation.</blockquote>

In the future, we may want to break up the "pump" into the currently divided pages, but for now, I don't think we've got a big enough crowd to warrant that many different "Discussion pages". Instead, I would be glad to go ahead and do some massive archiving and page merges to centralize the discussion (including merging most of the content from [[Talk:Main Page]]); I'll go into details on that if I end up getting some positive feedback on this topic. Another idea is to have an additional page that periodically consolidates any "Ongoing issues" that haven't been resolved on the main "pump"; this is [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Ongoing_issues how we do it at Wikible].

This is related to the [[OrthodoxWiki:Categories]] discussion you're having, too. That page is an example of a topic that doesn't need it's own "Discussion page" linked from the Community Portal. Just create something like [[:Category:Categories]] (the root category at Wikipedia) and use its discussion page. I would be glad to help structure a nice OrthodoxWiki category tree.

While I'm here, let me just say a big thanks to everyone's efforts at OrthodoxWiki. It's exciting to be working with people who have both the skills and commitment to make such a great website to the glory of Jesus Christ! --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:05, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

:I think this is a great idea, especially for the more general (non-article specific) discussions. Many of the regulars, I expect, keep up with all the various discussions via RSS or the Recent Changes page, but a more centralized system would be helpful. I'm not yet convinced about the need for a detailed category tree, although I'm definitely open to the idea. We already have [[Special:Categories]], for example, and the [[Main Page]] functions as a kind of root-level for a category tree. I'd love to hear from some of the other sysops on this (and anyone else who wants to chime in). Finally, thanks for your kind words about OrthodoxWiki! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]
:P.S. Hope you don't mind that I quoted your comment [[OrthodoxWiki:Buzz#It's_exciting|here]].

::Hehe, I saw that quote. If I had the foresight, I would have come up with something more intellectual to say; too late now ;-) I've never been a fan of Special:Categories since there is no taxonomy associated with it (other than being in alphabetical order, of course). --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 12:31, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

User talk:RockOfVictory

2006-08-11T15:13:30Z

RockOfVictory: /* Wiki Collaboration */ Why User:FrJohn/sig?

OrthodoxWiki:Questions

2006-08-11T15:05:21Z

RockOfVictory: OW discussions need consolidation

This '''Questions''' page is the place to post and answer general questions regarding the work here on '''OrthodoxWiki'''. We hope we can help! For general reference/research questions. please see [[OrthodoxWiki:Reference desk]]

==Skin change==
I don't know about y'all, but I liked the default skin ''without'' the boxes rounded off at the corners. Any chance that could be an option for the default skin? —[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 12:57, 10 Sep 2005 (EDT)

:Sure, I could put it in as an option, just for you :-). Give me a little time on this though! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Spoken Word==
I just ran across [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia Wikipedia's Spoken Word Project]. Might there be podcasting in our future??? What do you think? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==What to do?==
Someone (Fr John?) contacted me at Wikipedia and asked me to help out here, but I'm not sure where to start. I've worked on Wikipedia for several years off and one, and it's easy to find things there that need help, but the quality of work I'm seeing here looks much higher, at least at a glance. Is there a ToDo list somewhere, or anything of that sort? [[User:Theophan|Theophan]] 22:20, 26 Feb 2005 (CST)

::Hi Theophan, I'm sorry for the delay in finding this message, but I'm glad to see that others took up the ball on this one. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Timestamp==
Is there a reason that all the timestamps show as CST, even though preferences are set to another time zone? - [[User:Magda|magda]] 10:14, 18 Mar 2005 (CST)

::Hmm... Server time is set to CST, as well as the wiki default (since I'm in Chicago). Maybe to keep all the timestamps in order, they go for the default instead of you local preferences??? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 14:29, 18 Mar 2005 (CST)

==Diptych==
I was reading an [http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=528950 article] about the recent synod in Turkey, and came across the word ''diptych''. I asked my husband about it and he said this usage refers to the commemoration of the Patriarchs, who usually co-commemorate each other (as each local church commemorates the bishop, metropolitan, patriarch, etc.). Any idea why this is called a ''diptych''? --[[User:Magda|magda]] 11:53, 25 May 2005 (CDT)

:Hi magda, the [[wikipedia:diptych|Wikipedia article]] says "A diptych is any object with two flat plates attached at a hinge. These objects were quite popular in the ancient world, since they could record notes and measure time and direction." I assume this was just the commonest medium upon which the names of those commemorated were written.

:As a side note, this page seems to be for OrthodoxWiki related questions. Maybe we should move it to a general Orthodoxy q and A page, kind of like Google Answers? Any more ideas on how to best structure this? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Troparia and other prayers for Saints' entries?==
Given that this Wiki is unabashedly Orthodox, would it be acceptable to try to have appropriate liturgical prayers in each Saint's entry?
:Oops, that was from me [[User:Dogface|Dogface]] 23:02, December 4, 2005 (CST)

: Certainly! We wouldn't want to put the whole akolouthia in, though, just perhaps the [[troparion]] and [[kontakion]], along with a brief excerpt from some other major text from the feast. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 06:30, December 5, 2005 (CST)

::The more the better, as far as I'm concerned -- maybe the Troparion and Kontakion in the entry, as Dcn. Andrew suggested, and then more extensive texts links. We'll just need to make sure we have permission to post whatever texts we do post -- that's very important. Thanks, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

==Calendar of Saints==
I made a couple of entries on Saints, however I don't know how to put links to the articles in the calendar. How should I do this? - [[user:Silentchapel|Silentchapel]]
:[[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual (Church Calendar)]] says to just edit the template for the date. So for [[February 18]] edit [[Template:February 18]]. Hope this helps. - [[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 15:26, April 26, 2006 (CDT)
[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]
[[Category:Help]]

=="You have new messages" flag==

The new messages flag keeps displaying even after I've read the new message on my talk page. It keeps displaying even after I've logged out and logged back in. And it keeps displaying even when I log in later on on my other computer. Normally, the message flag should go off once the new message has been retrieved for the first time. That's certainly how it happens on other sites that use the same wikisoftware, e.g., Wikipedia. --[[User:Aquarius Rising|Aquarius Rising]] 17:49, April 26, 2006 (CDT)

::Not sure what's happening here. I haven't seen problems like this before. Have you clicked the "View new messages" link directly yet? Have you tried to refresh your browser? Not sure what else to say! [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 22:38, April 26, 2006 (CDT)

:::I have logged in after several days absence, and there is still a new messages flag regarding those earlier, already read messages. And I did click the view new messages link directly. It's weird. I have never experienced this glitch on Wikipedia, Uncyclopedia or any other wiki site that uses the same software. --[[User:Aquarius Rising|Aquarius Rising]] 08:46, May 4, 2006 (CDT)

==Deleting Articles?==
Um, is there any way I can delete an article? I missnamed a couple, so their deletation would be appreciated. [[User:Silentchapel|Silentchapel]]

::Hi Silentchapel,
::You can ask any [[Special:Listusers&group=sysop|sysop]] for help, and let them know the title of the page. Please be aware that some check in more often than others. You can also (as you discovered!) just leave a note on this page too. Thanks, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

:::Thanks Father! Well, the articles that should be deleted are [[Prophet Habbakuk]] (real article is [[Habbakuk]]) and [[Cosmas of Jerusalem]] (real article is [[Cosmas the Hymnographer]]). Sorry for causing all the trouble, it is just so fun to improve wiki. :->

:::: Done. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 20:42, April 27, 2006 (CDT)

==Stub==

Hmm, I've been having repeated problems with making pictures I've uploaded into stubs in my articles. Please see [[Edict of Milan]], and then tell me what the heck I'm doing wrong! Thanks so much. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 11 May, 2006, 12:46 (CST)

:Try "thumb" instead. :) Again, good work on the article! (Don't worry. The wiki syntax takes a little while to get used to.) {{User:Magda/sig}} 12:51, May 11, 2006 (CDT)

:Hmm, that deserves a "duh" response. Don't I feel like a complete idiot! Ah, well, it's good for my sense of humility. Thanks again. I see you also did some minor but quite useful editing. I'm learning. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 15:02, May 11, 2006 (CST)

==Calendar links==
Sorry if someone already asked this, but I wouldn't it be more logical for calendar entries only to contain links for actual Saint entries, as opposed to Saints and a large number of links that tend to lead to [[Saint titles]] article? For example, if someone wanted to read on St. Theodore the Sanctified, the entry looks like this: [[Saint]] [[Theodore the Sanctified]], the [[disciple]] of [[Venerable]] [[Pachomius the Great]]. Depending on where the person clicks (on name or title) it will lead to two different articles, and somoene who isn't proficient at using OrthodoxWiki probably wouldn't know that seemingly one link leads to two different articles. [[User:Silentchapel|Silentchapel]]

:Well, when we were starting to put the calendar pages together, we had more pages for the title kinds of things than for the hagiographical articles. Also, many of the titles themselves may provoke curiosity, for instance "venerable": I found out why some saints are called that when I was working on the calendar. Because the calendar templates are viewed on the main page, it seemed that they should be accessible to the broadest number of people, including those who do not know what a saint is. I tried to make sure that the titles were only linked once per day. Perhaps there should be another way of emphasizing the names of the saints of the day? {{User:Magda/sig}} 07:36, May 18, 2006 (CDT)

==skete.com==
Hmm, I'm trying to use an icon from skete.com, but they have the site locked so that you can't right click on the images and pull up a menu to save it to the hard drive. Basically, I can't put it on my computer, so I can't upload it and post it here. What am I missing about how everyone else managed to upload the skete images? [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 10:38, 23 May, 2006 (CDT)
:Ok, update. I managed to circumvent the skete site (though I'm still giving them credit in the image license) by searching on google and finding the same icon on religiousmall.com, which wasn't locked so you couldn't put it on your hard drive. Still, I'm sure there's an easier way. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 10:52, 23 May, 2006 (CDT)

:I look at the page's source (ctrl-U on Firefox; not sure about your browser) and search for "jpg". It's usually the 2nd hit or so, often with an "alt" tag with the saint's name. I then use the text from the "src" field, add it to the end of http://www.skete.com/ and, hey, presto! you have the image's URL. You can then right-click and save to your heart's content. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:58, May 23, 2006 (CDT)

==IRC Channel==
Just wondering if any of ya'll have given thought on creating an IRC channel for Orthodoxwiki. I was considering it, but I thought it best to ask my fellow Orthodoxwikians before taking on the endeavor myself. Does anyone have suggestions? Server locations? Does this sound like a good idea?
[[User:Mike|Mike]] 17:40, 2 June, 2006 (CDT)

:Check out [[OrthodoxWiki:Chat]]. There's an IRC channel sponsored by [[User:Joe Rodgers]]; I'm not sure how active it is, but I've used it once. —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 07:32, June 8, 2006 (CDT)

==Commons Image tags==
Sorry, but I'm still bad with this copyright bureaucracy stuff. From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), if I'm using an icon from htm or skete, then all I need to do is add the skete.com/htm tag, not the limited one. But if I want to use an image from Wikimedia commons, I believe I'm supposed to use both the commons tag and whatever other tag the page has (GNU, public domain, creative commons, etc.). Is this correct? [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 16:04, June 3, 2006 (CDT)

: Yes. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 16:07, June 3, 2006 (CDT)

== OW discussions need consolidation ==

I think we've got a few too many "[[OrthodoxWiki:Community_Portal#Discussion_pages|Discussion pages]]" on OrthodoxWiki. ''Every'' article has a discussion page, so shouldn't we just focus on one or two "first stop" discussion pages and then point to the others from there? Otherwise, the community gets splintered and there's no central meeting place. Wikipedia has a [[w:Wikipedia:Village_pump|Village pump]] for it's central meeting place. We could convert one of the existing discussion pages here (e.g. [[OrthodoxWiki:Questions]]) into a central pump that everyone can get used to visiting regularly to check up on the pulse of the wiki. The intro on the page can read something like

<blockquote>Please use this as a jumping-off point for any question or point you'd like to raise. It is recommended that you start a discussion on a page relating to your question first; then link to it from here if you're not getting enough participation.</blockquote>

In the future, we may want to break up the "pump" into the currently divided pages, but for now, I don't think we've got a big enough crowd to warrant that many different "Discussion pages". Instead, I would be glad to go ahead and do some massive archiving and page merges to centralize the discussion (including merging most of the content from [[Talk:Main Page]]); I'll go into details on that if I end up getting some positive feedback on this topic. Another idea is to have an additional page that periodically consolidates any "Ongoing issues" that haven't been resolved on the main "pump"; this is [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Ongoing_issues how we do it at Wikible].

This is related to the [[OrthodoxWiki:Categories]] discussion you're having, too. That page is an example of a topic that doesn't need it's own "Discussion page" linked from the Community Portal. Just create something like [[:Category:Categories]] (the root category at Wikipedia) and use its discussion page. I would be glad to help structure a nice OrthodoxWiki category tree.

While I'm here, let me just say a big thanks to everyone's efforts at OrthodoxWiki. It's exciting to be working with people who have both the skills and commitment to make such a great website to the glory of Jesus Christ! --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:05, August 11, 2006 (CDT)

User:RockOfVictory

2006-08-11T13:27:03Z

RockOfVictory: RWiki was a good start

I am probably one of the few [[Evangelicalism|Evangelical]] (specifically, [[Journeys_to_Orthodoxy#Baptist|Baptist]]) contributors to this site. See my [[Wikipedia:User:RockOfVictory|Wikipedia user page]] for more about me.

I've been exploring several MediaWiki-based resources lately and am trying to '''help the Christian community consolidate information so we're not doing a lot of redundant work with resources'''. I keep shifting from one Christian wiki site to another, mainly in an effort to glean the best aspects of each site and discuss how we can centralize the content more effectively. It's also been fun meeting Christians with different beliefs and visions for the wiki community. I generally try to focus on contributing to Wikipedia, but some topics are considered too specialized (like articles for every verse in the Bible), which is why I've ventured out looking for Christian wikis.

There are two or three other Christian wiki users looking to collaborate across different MediaWiki sites. As of August 2006, we haven't made much progress on creating a central discussion and collaboration website, but I've got high hopes that we can make one! The best we've done is [http://www.wikichristian.org/index.php/Talk:Christian_wikis#Thoughts_from_Ben_.28CKB.29 a discussion on WikiChristian]. The [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rwiki/ rWiki Yahoo! Group] was a good start, but I think we would be better off collaborating within a MediaWiki environment. It seems to be theological opinions that divide us on the content-focus of each Christian wiki; while that is fine, I think it would be worthwhile to share the resources and information that we do have in common and point to the wikis that have been the most technologically innovative on certain topics.

I'm starting to ramble, but I wanted specifically to recommend the Bible wiki sites [http://Wikible.org Wikible.org] (Protestant slant) and [http://bible.tmtm.com BibleWiki] (Wikipedia-like [[Wikipedia:WP:NPOV|NPOV]]) as they've done a good job focusing on a particular Christian topic (i.e. [[Holy Scripture]]). See particularly [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Christian_wikis Christian wikis] and [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Bible_wikis_comparison Bible wikis comparison] on Wikible. I'm aware of the [[Other wikis]] page here, but the Wikible page is much more up-to date and comprehensive.

The Orthodox perspective, in particular, is one that our collaborative efforts are lacking. Please [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:RockOfVictory&action=edit&section=new add a new section to my talk page] if you would like to discuss inter-Christian-wiki collaboration (my talk page isn't limited to collaboration discussion only, of course; use my "E-mail this user" link if you like, as well)...

[[Category:User Pages]]

User talk:HappyGrevling

2006-08-11T02:09:57Z

RockOfVictory: /* OrthodoxWiki Logo Contest Champion */ Help with Wikible, too?

{{Welcome}}

[[User:Magda|{{User:Magda/sig}}]] 16:45, 28 Sep 2005 (EDT)

== Good to meet you! ==

Howdy, Zander! It was good to meet you this past Sunday. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 11:06, November 16, 2005 (CST)

== OrthodoxWiki Logo Contest Champion ==

Dear Zander, congratulations on winning the logo contest, and thank you for all you submissions! Would you mind sending me an email with you email address in it? We need to arrange for your prize :-)!

I would be grateful if you could send a higher-resolution, layered PSD or PNG format logo. This would be very helpful to us, for example, once we start launching localized OrthodoxWikis.

Also, might you be willing to donate the black and white version of the logo for print use (if that need should ever come up)? If you aren't planning to reuse your other designs anywhere else, please feel free to donate them too -- who knows whta will happen in the future? I would be happy to see them put to other good use as well.

Thanks again!

Yours in Christ,

[[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 14:30, November 16, 2005 (CST)

:You did an excellent job on the logos! Would you care to help with the [http://wikible.org/en/Wikible:Logo Wikible logo], too? --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 21:09, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

User talk:FrJohn

2006-08-11T02:01:06Z

RockOfVictory: /* Thank you for the welcome */ Removed repeated text

<div id="shortcut" style="border: 1px solid #CC9; margin: 0em 1em 0em 1em; text-align: center; padding:5px; clear: both; background-color:#F1F1DE">
''Welcome to my discussion page. Please post new messages to the bottom of the page and use headings when starting new discussion topics. Please also sign and date your entries by inserting '''<nowiki>- ~~~~</nowiki>''' at the end. Thank you. [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} Start a new discussion topic.]''
----
''[[/archived discussion 1]] (through 09-07-2005)'' 
''[[/archived discussion 2]] (through 11-20-2005)'' 
''[[/archived discussion 3]] (through 05-24-2006)''
</div>

__TOC__

== Protest ==

Fr. John,
I published my article on Hebrew Catholics in the Orthodox Wiki portal for two reasons, the first is I couldn't log in the General Wikipedia and the second because it is related to an Eastern spirituality. You said you deleted it because it is not convenient for your site, i mean, you consider it not appropriate. So, where is the information right for your believers and anybody else? Where is the Christian spirit you proclaim? I don't pretend to alien or romanize the Orthodoxy, as i understand we are from the same Apostolic root. Where is the final period for a real unity? When until are the Latin and Orthodox fighting for little things?
I'm a great admiror of the Eastern culture and its ritual traditions. I respect and support the diversity in the Church of Christ. I believe in the unity but not the uniformity. So, if you could see i look for the defined identities from the peoples.

::Hi Levikahano, It's not right for OrthodoxWiki because it deals with a Roman Catholic group. I'm not saying the group isn't important or that we may share many things, but this generally isn't in the scope of material that we would include here. I would encourage you to put it on a Catholic wiki, or even on Wikipedia. May God bless you. {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

== Deletes and undeletes? ==

I'm curious as to what exactly you're doing. Are you trying to erase article histories to remove direct evidence of vandalism? If so, it makes examining the legitimate part of the histories somewhat difficult... :/ —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 16:03, June 3, 2006 (CDT)

== Book sources page formatting ==

There are HTML formatting problems on the [[Special:Booksources]] page. (after the ISBN number is entered) This once worked but now does not. There is no way for me to fix it, so I’ll just report it. [[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 12:57, June 13, 2006 (CDT)

:I went ahead and wikified the page. Is there a particular reason why the html formatting no longer works? —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 13:09, June 13, 2006 (CDT)

::Hmm... probably has to do with the upgrade to 1.6. I'm out of town now, but I'll try to have a look next week when I get back. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

==Name blocks==
Are we able to block certain usernames from being used? Right now, the system of renaming has its advantages in the history section of vandalised articles, but the same usernames can still be reused - can we put, say, a '*vandal*' block up? — edited by [[User:Pistevo|Pι]][[Special:Listusers/sysop|s]][[User talk:Pistevo|τ]][[Special:Contributions/Pistevo|é]][[User:Pistevo|vο]] at 21:57, June 16, 2006 (CDT)

:I think it's possible, but I'll have to refresh my memory on this. Let me try to look at this later in the week. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]
::It is, you need [[:metawikipedia:Username Blacklist|this]] extension. [[User:Gregg|Gregg]] 15:40, June 17, 2006 (CDT)

:::Thanks Gregg! That makes it easy. {{User:FrJohn/sig}}
:::P.S. If anyone has an idea what should be blocked, please send me an email.

== Hello, Father ==

Thanks for the message. I'm a php programmer. I'm mystified by wiki, but I'll figure it out.

==Re:==

Thanks, not sure how much I can, or will contribute, but hey, maybe I will learn something.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Mmatga2me99|Mmatga2me99]] ([[User talk:Mmatga2me99|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mmatga2me99|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.

== Thank you for the welcome ==

Dear Fr John,

Thank you for the kind welcome. Much appreciated. It's nice to be here. -[[User:Antonios aigyptos|Antonios]] 15:27, August 5, 2006 (CDT)

== Sysop ==

Thank you, Father John. I find it a pleasure to accept your invitation. I wouldn't do too well on handling theological subject, but history, etc. and sounding off on non-theological subject I can do.

I had been meaning to e-mailing you on the subject of sound (audio) lifes, but have kept putting it off. I have a recording of my father-in-law's choir (Victor Pokrovsky) that I recorded at Nicolai-do in 1957 and have wondered if you want to place audio files on Orthodoxwiki. I have the file in two formats, AIFF Audio file and MP3 Audio file. I know the perferred format is 'OGG' but so far I haven't found the means to convert it. The file is short, 11 minutes, but of course is a large, 112MB and 127 MB. There is a slight pause at about a one third point for a shorter version.

I can send the file to you if you have access to a means to convert the file, when I get to a high speed connection. I'm on dial-up. Or less I could just up-load load one of the two versions I have.[[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 20:28, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

User talk:RockOfVictory

2006-08-11T01:43:15Z

RockOfVictory: /* Wiki Collaboration */ I hate ads

User talk:RockOfVictory

2006-08-11T01:39:25Z

RockOfVictory: /* Wiki Collaboration */ Wikia does have limitations, though

User talk:RockOfVictory

2006-08-11T01:32:18Z

RockOfVictory: /* Wiki Collaboration */ MediaWiki would be a better platform

User:RockOfVictory

2006-08-10T20:04:24Z

RockOfVictory: Mention Holy Scripture

I am probably one of the few [[Evangelicalism|Evangelical]] (specifically, [[Journeys_to_Orthodoxy#Baptist|Baptist]]) contributors to this site. See my [[Wikipedia:User:RockOfVictory|Wikipedia user page]] for more about me.

I've been exploring several MediaWiki-based resources lately and am trying to '''help the Christian community consolidate information so we're not doing a lot of redundant work with resources'''. I keep shifting from one Christian wiki site to another, mainly in an effort to glean the best aspects of each site and discuss how we can centralize the content more effectively. It's also been fun meeting Christians with different beliefs and visions for the wiki community. I generally try to focus on contributing to Wikipedia, but some topics are considered too specialized (like articles for every verse in the Bible), which is why I've ventured out looking for Christian wikis.

There are two or three other Christian wiki users looking to collaborate across different MediaWiki sites. As of August 2006, we haven't made much progress on creating a central discussion and collaboration website, but I've got high hopes that we can make one! The best we've done is [http://www.wikichristian.org/index.php/Talk:Christian_wikis#Thoughts_from_Ben_.28CKB.29 a discussion on WikiChristian]. It seems to be theological opinions that divide us on the content-focus of each Christian wiki; while that is fine, I think it would be worthwhile to share the resources and information that we do have in common and point to the wikis that have been the most technologically innovative on certain topics.

I'm starting to ramble, but I wanted specifically to recommend the Bible wiki sites [http://Wikible.org Wikible.org] (Protestant slant) and [http://bible.tmtm.com BibleWiki] (Wikipedia-like [[Wikipedia:WP:NPOV|NPOV]]) as they've done a good job focusing on a particular Christian topic (i.e. [[Holy Scripture]]). See particularly [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Christian_wikis Christian wikis] and [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Bible_wikis_comparison Bible wikis comparison] on Wikible. I'm aware of the [[Other wikis]] page here, but the Wikible page is much more up-to date and comprehensive.

The Orthodox perspective, in particular, is one that our collaborative efforts are lacking. Please [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:RockOfVictory&action=edit&section=new add a new section to my talk page] if you would like to discuss inter-Christian-wiki collaboration (my talk page isn't limited to collaboration discussion only, of course; use my "E-mail this user" link if you like, as well)...

User:RockOfVictory

2006-08-10T19:58:54Z

RockOfVictory: Other wikis mention; Wikipedia contributions mentioned

I am probably one of the few [[Evangelicalism|Evangelical]] (specifically, [[Journeys_to_Orthodoxy#Baptist|Baptist]]) contributors to this site. See my [[Wikipedia:User:RockOfVictory|Wikipedia user page]] for more about me.

I've been exploring several MediaWiki-based resources lately and am trying to '''help the Christian community consolidate information so we're not doing a lot of redundant work with resources'''. I keep shifting from one Christian wiki site to another, mainly in an effort to glean the best aspects of each site and discuss how we can centralize the content more effectively. It's also been fun meeting Christians with different beliefs and visions for the wiki community. I generally try to focus on contributing to Wikipedia, but some topics are considered too specialized (like articles for every verse in the Bible), which is why I've ventured out looking for Christian wikis.

There are two or three other Christian wiki users looking to collaborate across different MediaWiki sites. As of August 2006, we haven't made much progress on creating a central discussion and collaboration website, but I've got high hopes that we can make one! The best we've done is [http://www.wikichristian.org/index.php/Talk:Christian_wikis#Thoughts_from_Ben_.28CKB.29 a discussion on WikiChristian]. It seems to be theological opinions that divide us on the content-focus of each Christian wiki; while that is fine, I think it would be worthwhile to share the resources and information that we do have in common and point to the wikis that have been the most technologically innovative on certain topics.

I'm starting to ramble, but I wanted specifically to recommend the Bible wiki sites [http://Wikible.org Wikible.org] (Protestant slant) and [http://bible.tmtm.com BibleWiki] (Wikipedia-like [[Wikipedia:WP:NPOV|NPOV]]) as they've done a good job focusing on a particular Christian topic. See particularly [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Christian_wikis Christian wikis] and [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Bible_wikis_comparison Bible wikis comparison] on Wikible. I'm aware of the [[Other wikis]] page here, but the Wikible page is much more up-to date and comprehensive.

The Orthodox perspective, in particular, is one that our collaborative efforts are lacking. Please [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:RockOfVictory&action=edit&section=new add a new section to my talk page] if you would like to discuss inter-Christian-wiki collaboration (my talk page isn't limited to collaboration discussion only, of course; use my "E-mail this user" link if you like, as well)...

OrthodoxWiki:Meta Reflections

2006-08-10T19:54:06Z

RockOfVictory: /* Knowledge Management / Communities of Practice */ Thoughts about inter-wiki collaboration

This is the place for thinking about the project we're engaged in together at OrthodoxWiki.

==Can a wiki be Orthodox? Can Orthodoxy be wikified?==
We received the first major objection to our project today (March 28, 2005):

::For true Orthodox Christians, this is a very dangerous web site. Any nut case or schismatic can edit the material herein and change meanings, change teachings of the True Church, etc. For serious students of Orthodoxy, this site should be avoided...shunned. The teachings of the Holy Church are not subject to willy-nilly editing.
:: Al Green
:: Orthodox church and bible Study Links
:: [http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html]

I invited Al to visit and asked him if he might be willing to share some of the fine work he has done on his website. He voices some common concerns about wikis. I do think it can be difficult for people to grasp the [[Wikipedia:Wiki|wiki concept]] - it can seem counterintuitive at first. One site I'd recommend on this topic is [[UseMod:WhyWikiWorks]] along with its links, especially the page on [[UseMod:SoftSecurity|"soft security"]].

Does anyone else want to say something about this? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

* See also [[Wikipedia:Criticism_of_Wikipedia]]

Sure, I'll jump in. Nothing authoritative, but I have worked on the Orthodox pages of wikipedia off and on.

The same criticism is levelled against wikipedia on the authoritativeness of its content. Many educators will not use wikipedia because they feel that the authority wikipedia wields is compromised by the possibility of mis-content. However, in my experience, wikipedia has been the most informative, unbiased, and authoritative source I can find for many topics. Is it possible for a medium that allows non-experts or non-authorities to mess things up, to itself become a repository of accurate expert, and authoritative knowledge?

I have several things to say to these educators. One is that any source of information should be judged for its authority and bias. Would I trust Encyclopedia Brittanica for the accuracy of all its articles? Of articles on Orthodoxy? Surely not. Would I without question accept any Bishop's word as the voice of the Church, all-holy, and blameless? I know too much Church history to allow me to do that. We do not hold the absolutistic Roman view of Apostolic Succession. Bishops also must be within Holy Tradition, as I understand it, and there have been (thankfully rare) times that the people have been more true to Holy Tradition than their Bishops. I'm not against the Bishops or the office. As most Orthodox, I love my Bishops and think they do a wonderful job. But they don't have the final say in the same way that the Pope has the final say, and that I am glad for as Orthodox. We should never expect a source to be absolutely, without question (even visions of Christ may be the devil!).

These educators are also concerned that popular opinion will trump expert opinion, by being more numerous. This is obviously a fallacy when you realize that wikipedia pages are ongoing discussions. Think about a discussion you have been in where most people, at the beginning of the discussion, believe one thing, and few people believed the right thing. Most often, in my experience, the truth sways opinion far better than popularity, especially if it can be backed up with good reasons and argumentation. I just don't see popularity trumping expert opinion in my experience, except for when the opinions are unstated, unexamined, or assumed. The wiki method, however, is against these factors. And if a mistake is entered into a page, it will get examined and taken out.

I think that the problems of mistrust and feeling betrayed by a medium occur when the wrong expectations are set or assumed about what that medium is supposed to accomplish. Is OrthodoxWiki a voice of the Orthodox people? A voice of Orthodox truth? A voice of the Orthodox hierarchy? A place where non-Orthodox can reliably learn about Orthodoxy? Is this site responsible or, when that responsibility would be compromised, liable for any of these concerns or others?

No. That is a lot to assume on any site, and what people say they are responsible for is not necessarily right either. Can you find the voice of the Orthodox people here? Probably. Can you find the voice of Orthodox truth here? Probably. Can you find the voice of the Orthodox hierarchy here? Probably. Can non-Orthodox learn reliably about Orthodoxy here? Probably. These sort of things tend to happen if you get us all together in the same room.

But what about the undiscerning, lost sheep who can't tell black from white and would walk off a cliff if you let them? What about those who just might find some inadvertent error, or some opinion by a rather non-Orthodox person? They might be corrupted! They might never find the faith!

Is this any different, I ask you, than walking into any Orthodox church and talking to the people there? We are, regrettably, sinful people who must rely upon God's providence and mercy to make up for our shortcomings. Any panic on the part of blind sheep not only betrays an opinion that is probably patronizing to those sheep. Is there anyone truly incapable of judgement or without friends that are incapable of judgement?

But, the argument goes, someone will eventually come along, make misplaced assumptions about this site, and be disillusioned by some bit of content that may not even be representative of most of the efforts of the wiki editors. Yes, unfortunate incidents happen. Sometimes someone in a discussion hears wrong or misunderstands an argument. Sometimes a person catches an Orthodox person in a particularly bad mood and will latch on to whatever that Orthodox says even though there are other Orthodox standing around saying, "No, that's not right." Can we, through extreme carefulness, or through security measures, keep everyone from misinformation? No.

Is wiki more prone to misinformation than an authoritative/security model? No. The authority can be wrong, may have mistyped something, and may definitely be misheard, in which case there is even more possibility of the perception/assumption of authority leading to disillusionment.

Editing within the OrthodoxWiki is also not likely to be "willy-nilly", since the perceived importance and authority of such a site adds to the gravity felt by, and the care taken by, the editor. I know this is true for myself at least, because I very well do know how it may be perceived. I may be wrong, and I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but I think that would go for most of us.

-- Rdr. Patrick

::Thanks for your words, Rdr. Patrick. I wanted to share another criticism we received on the site, this one from [[User:Colin]]:
:::''"I think this orthodoxwiki should demand that people give their real names, their real emails and the name of their Orthodox Priest before they are permitted to post or edit anything. That way, if they behave like this, they can be referred to their bishop. I admit to being shocked that an Orthodox Priest would run this site on any other lines."''
::Does anyone want respond to this? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 22:47, 3 November 2005 (CST)

:::A small response, perhaps.
:::Even if Fr John were to request real names, real emails and the names of real Orthodox priests, it is entirely impossible to verify whether these are, in fact, real names or priests. Fr John is a priest in the [[OCA]], in (if I'm not mistaken) the USA. A delightful country, of course; but there is virtually no chance that he can check the real name of anybody, much less the name of their Orthodox priest. Even in the USA, a random 'Fr James' can belong to, I imagine, dozens of priests from over a dozen different ruling churches, archdioceses, metropolis' and dioceses.
:::And that's just in the USA. Once the [[Wikipedia:Antipodal point|Antipodeans]] start being part of OrthodoxWiki, we get into all sorts of difficults: the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese is, without any doubt, the largest Orthodox Archdiocese in Australia; however, on their website, they have no listing of priests, and the only listing that I am aware of is in book form and in Greek. How is Fr John, or any other sysop, supposed to verify that Fr Amphilochios can speak for me? Or, indeed, that he will? Unless I'm referring to [[Metropolitan]] [[Amphilochios (Tsoukos) of New Zealand|Amphilochios]], of course, verification can't happen.
:::We must remember that this is the internet. It is virtually impossible for a person with an external full-time career to verify a person's identity on the off-chance that they might like to post. And moreover, any person who would comply with this puts themself in danger of their name and exact location being found. And no editing is worth that. -- [[User:Pistevo|oea]] 06:21, 4 November 2005 (CST).

::Thanks for your words Pistevo. Here's a brief response from me:
::About OrthodoxWiki, I can assure you that these kinds of abuses are rare. The kind of requirements you are suggesting are not tenable for us -- they would present too much overhead and quench the site. The sysops do monitor articles to make sure there are not gross theological inaccuracies or personal attacks. Thankfully, these are usually dealt with within a few hours. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 10:50, 4 November 2005 (CST)

== Interesting discussion of the whole WikiPedia concept ==
Just ran across an interesting discussion of the whole WikiPedia concept started by an OpEd piece by one of its co-founders, Larry Sanger. Sanger's article and the ensuing discussion can be found [http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/12/30/142458/25 here].

:Yep, that's interesting. It's definitely worth thinking through these things a little bit. Regarding the concerns brought up in that article, I suspect we have an advantage in that, even if this site takes off wonderfully, we will still be a small community limited in scope, with recognizable "experts" in church life. I think also the sysops/moderators should have a broad enough knowledge of Orthodox matters to be able to tell if something is really off base. Also, we can be stricter in dealing with trolls (although that can certainly be a challenge on an open site like this one). I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on this article with regard to OrthodoxWiki (and perhaps you'd want to login or otherwise identify yourself). Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] 22:36, 20 Jan 2005 (CST)

:: It occurs to me that, aside from what [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] says here (with which I thoroughly agree), the Orthodox Church is by its nature in some ways already prepared in terms of its [[phronema]] to embark on a project like OrthodoxWiki. The whole Church is the guardian of the truth, after all, and we are essentially trying to submit ourselves to the public proclamation of the Gospel, not become researchers in obscure academic fields. Thus, while there are certainly things that are good for specialists and experts to work on for OrthodoxWiki, the real meat of our content is something that we should already in many ways have a consensus on.

:: The other thing that occurs to me is that it's unlikely that OrthodoxWiki would get infected with anti-elitism. The Orthodox Church is hierarchical, and respect and obedience toward authority are a standard, normal part of our Church life. --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 06:13, 21 Jan 2005 (CST)

:One problem with relying on "experts" is our experts are often already wearing too many hats. Some who qualify for that title have already participated and I hope, especially with time, many more will. Of course, the rest of us can happily draw from "experts" in our articles. I think it's great that anyone can contribute. And sometimes, folks who are not "experts" have a great deal more time to delve into the specifics or something, and the rest of us can benefit from that work and knowledge.

:I'm also excited by this OrthodoxWiki project because I think there are still so many things that are oral tradition in the Orthodox Church. I'm not saying that should change, except that by getting some of that down in an organized and written form, it will be accessible to so many more people. Mostly, I think this is for the good - especially when Church life is undergoing tremendous changes across the globe (due to globalization or whatever you want to call it) and there is also an influx of converts who are just learning the ropes. - [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] 15:08, 21 Jan 2005 (CST)

==Knowledge Management / Communities of Practice==
Over time, I think it would be great to broader the concerns introduced by the article above into a more general discussion of the nature, character, and potential of "communities of practice" within Orthodox Church life -- I mean especially the use of emerging technologies for collaborative efforts at knowledge management at the service of the Orthodox Church.

There are many resources on "communities of practice" and "knowledge management" available online and in print. A couple books I've found helpful and thought-provoking include '''''Communities of Practice''''' by Etienne Wengner (ISBN 1578513308) and '''''The Knowledge Landscapes of Cyberspace''''' by David Hakken (ISBN 0415945097).

I think it's a good time to think big and brainstorm about possibilities for the future, e.g. what effect might semantic technologies have on Orthodox KM? I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this (here or at [http://orthodoxweb.org OrthodoxWeb Dev]). [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]]

:To resurrect this discussion, first let me ask what ''was'' OrthodoxWeb Dev? On to the point: I've mentioned some Christian wiki collaboration ideas on my user page. It includes ideas mainly about sharing common resources and information across the Christian "wikiverse". We all have different beliefs about God, but I think that we can at least create a central community to discuss ''how'' we can improve each of our wikis and share the information that we do agree on. --[[User:RockOfVictory|RockOfVictory]] 14:54, August 10, 2006 (CDT)

===See also===
* [http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ Semantic Web Overview]
* [http://www.voght.com/cgi-bin/pywiki?KmWiki KM Wiki]
* [http://rhizome.liminalzone.org/ Rhizome] - "a Wiki-like content management and delivery system that exposes the entire site -- content, structure, and metadata as editable RDF. This means that instead of just creating a site with URLs that correspond to a page of HTML, with Rhizome you can create URLs that represent just about anything..."

==Inspirational Reading==
* [http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html The Book Stops Here] - A history of Wikipedia, ''Wired'' 13:03 (March 2005)
:From page 2:
::"What makes the model work is not only the collective knowledge and effort of a far-flung labor force, but also the willingness to abide by two core principles. The first: neutrality. All articles should be written without bias. Wikipedians are directed not to take a stand on controversial subjects like abortion or global warming but to fairly represent all sides. The second principle is good faith. All work should be approached with the assumption that the author is trying to help the project, not harm it.
::"Wikipedia represents a belief in the supremacy of reason and the goodness of others. In the Wikipedia ideal, people of goodwill sometimes disagree. But from the respectful clash of opposing viewpoints and the combined wisdom of the many, something resembling the truth will emerge. Most of the time.''
:Of course, not all of this applies here. We have our own interpretation of neutrality and the role of reason, but it's worth noting the basic similarities between our project and Wikipedia. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]

* [[w:Readings to put you in the Wikipedia spirit]] - Some are more applicable to our project than others.

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]]

User:RockOfVictory

2006-08-10T19:42:42Z

RockOfVictory:

I am probably one of the few [[Evangelicalism|Evangelical]] (specifically, [[Journeys_to_Orthodoxy#Baptist|Baptist]]) contributors to this site. See my [[Wikipedia:User:RockOfVictory|Wikipedia user page]] for more about me.

I've been exploring several MediaWiki-based resources lately and am trying to '''help the Christian community consolidate information so we're not doing a lot of redundant work with resources'''. I keep shifting from one Christian wiki site to another, mainly in an effort to glean the best aspects of each site and discuss how we can centralize the content more effectively. It's also been fun meeting Christians with different beliefs and visions for the wiki community.

There are two or three other Christian wiki users looking to collaborate across different MediaWiki sites. As of August 2006, we haven't made much progress on creating a central discussion and collaboration website, but I've got high hopes that we can make one! The best we've done is [http://www.wikichristian.org/index.php/Talk:Christian_wikis#Thoughts_from_Ben_.28CKB.29 a discussion on WikiChristian]. It seems to be theological opinions that divide us on the content-focus of each Christian wiki; while that is fine, I think it would be worthwhile to share the resources and information that we do have in common and point to the wikis that have been the most technologically innovative on certain topics.

I'm starting to ramble, but I wanted specifically to recommend the Bible wiki sites [http://Wikible.org Wikible.org] (Protestant slant) and [http://bible.tmtm.com BibleWiki] (Wikipedia-like [[Wikipedia:WP:NPOV|NPOV]]) as they've done a good job focusing on a particular Christian topic. See particularly [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Christian_wikis Christian wikis] and [http://www.wikible.org/en/Wikible:Bible_wikis_comparison Bible wikis comparison] on Wikible.

The Orthodox perspective, in particular, is one that our collaborative efforts are lacking. Please [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:RockOfVictory&action=edit&section=new add a new section to my talk page] if you would like to discuss inter-Christian-wiki collaboration (my talk page isn't limited to collaboration discussion only, of course; use my "E-mail this user" link if you like, as well)...