OrthodoxWiki - User contributions [en]

Holy Synod of Milan

2011-04-05T00:22:04Z

JosephSuaiden: /* History */

The '''Holy Synod of Milan''' originated as a [[diocese]] for Western Europe of an [[Old Calendarist]] Greek Orthodox Church (see also ''[[http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarist#The_Florinite.2FMatthewite_schism Florinites]]''). The full name of this jurisdiction is the '''Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of Milan, Western Europe'''.

==History==
The diocese was granted a [[tomos]] of [[autonomy]] in 1984 from Archbishop Auxentios in order to pursue missionary work among the non-Orthodox people of the West. The title of the Synod at this time was the ''Metropolia of Western Europe''. After the transference of its first Chief Hierarch, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal, to the [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] [[Church of Poland]], Bishop Evloghios of Milan was chosen as second Chief Hierarch and elevated to the rank of [[metropolitan]].

Today Metropolitan Evloghios remains at the helm of the Holy Synod of bishops of the Church of Milan, which comprises eight [[diocese]]s, five in Europe, as well as missionary deaneries in England, France and South Africa.

As of 2008, the current makeup of the Synod is as follows.

In Europe:

Metropolitan EVLOGHIOS of Milan, First Hierarch

Archbishop ONUPHRIUS of Bergamo (Titular; the Archbishop is the Representative to Eastern Europe for the Synod)

Bishop ABBONDIO of Como

Retired or Withdrew:

Bishop PABLO of Italica, bishop for Spain and Portugal

Bishop Ildefonso of Valencia

Bishop BORIS of Germany

Prior to the American Archdioceses becoming an independent Metropolia and ceasing communion with the Milan Synod, the ranks were formerly as follows:

Archbishop HILARION of Austin

Archbishop JOHN of New York and New Jersey (now Metropolitan of the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles)

Bishop PAVLOS of Maspeth (+2011)

The Milan Synod uses the [[Julian calendar]] exclusively, and "firmly resists the [[heresy|heresies]] of false [[ecumenism]] and trans-religious syncretism."[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm]

Since 1997 the Milan Synod includes a number of [[Western Rite]] communities, mainly in the United States, who worship according to pre-schismatic (historically Orthodox) liturgical traditions with the support of the Metropolitan and of the [[Holy Synod]] of Bishops. The principal rite of the Synod of Milan is the [[Byzantine Rite]] of the Orthodox Church, celebrated most commonly in the Slavic style but in some parishes in the Greek style.

On February 14/27, 2011, the Synod announced that it had granted full autonomy to its American Dioceses, elevating Archbishop JOHN of New York to the rank of Metropolitan and erecting the [[Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles]]. Communion between the Autonomous Metropolia of the Americas and the British Isle and the Milan Synod ceased effectively April 4, 2011. The Milan Synod was required by Patriarch Kyril to cease communion with any previous sister churches. The American Metropolia responded by confirming the cessation.

==Ecclesiastical status==
As with all of the [[Old Calendarist]] jurisdictions, the Milan Synod is not currently in communion with the mainstream Orthodox churches. It is currently in dalogue with the Moscow Patriarchate, and it has ceased communion with its sister synods in America, Greece, and Bulgaria.

==Related articles==
*[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm The Holy Synod of Milan] (from [http://www.odox.net/ Odox.net])

==External links==
* http://www.orthodoxchristians.eu Official Website of the Autonomous Orthodox Church of Milan (Holy Synod of Milan) (Italian, with Some English and Spanish)
* [http://ihtis.wordpress.com News from the Milan Synod maintained by Bp Abbondio of Como]

[[Category:Jurisdictions]]
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]

Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles

2011-03-09T02:11:21Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Links */

The Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles is an [[Old Calendarist]] jurisdiction which was originally comprised of the Archdioceses of America and the British Deanery of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]]. It was granted Autonomous status on February 14/27, 2011 through Decree #542 of the Milan Synod.

The Metropolia is headed by three Bishops:

Metropolitan JOHN of New York

Archbishop HILARION of Texas

Bishop FANOURIOUS of Lincoln

== Ecclesiastical Status ==

As with other Old Calendarist jurisdictions, the Metropolia is not in communion with any of the mainstream Orthodox Churches. After the release of an official statement from Milan claiming fraternal relations with Moscow, the Metropolia released a clergy confession reiterating its rejection of [[ecumenism]], Sergianism, modernism, and the [[New Calendar]].

== Links ==

[http://www.milansynodusa.org Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia Official Website]

Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles

2011-03-09T02:08:48Z

JosephSuaiden:

The Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles is an [[Old Calendarist]] jurisdiction which was originally comprised of the Archdioceses of America and the British Deanery of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]]. It was granted Autonomous status on February 14/27, 2011 through Decree #542 of the Milan Synod.

The Metropolia is headed by three Bishops:

Metropolitan JOHN of New York

Archbishop HILARION of Texas

Bishop FANOURIOUS of Lincoln

== Ecclesiastical Status ==

As with other Old Calendarist jurisdictions, the Metropolia is not in communion with any of the mainstream Orthodox Churches. After the release of an official statement from Milan claiming fraternal relations with Moscow, the Metropolia released a clergy confession reiterating its rejection of [[ecumenism]], Sergianism, modernism, and the [[New Calendar]].

== Links ==

[Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia Official Website|http://www.milansynodusa.org]

Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of the North and South America and the British Isles

2011-03-09T02:02:15Z

JosephSuaiden: Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of the North and South America and the British Isles moved to Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles

#REDIRECT [[Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles]]

Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles

2011-03-09T02:02:15Z

JosephSuaiden: Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of the North and South America and the British Isles moved to Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles

The Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles is an [[Old Calendarist]] jurisdiction which was originally comprised the Archdioceses of America and the British Deanery of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]]. It was granted Autonomous status on February 14/27, 2011 through Decree #542 of the Milan Synod.

The Metropolia is headed by three Bishops:

Metropolitan JOHN of New York

Archbishop HILARION of Texas

Bishop FANOURIOUS of Lincoln

Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of the Americas and the British Isles

2011-03-09T02:00:42Z

JosephSuaiden: Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of the Americas and the British Isles moved to Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of the North and South America and the British Isles: Incorrect name

#REDIRECT [[Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of the North and South America and the British Isles]]

Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles

2011-03-09T02:00:42Z

JosephSuaiden: Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of the Americas and the British Isles moved to Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of the North and South America and the British Isles: Incorrect name

Holy Synod of Milan

2011-03-09T01:59:04Z

JosephSuaiden: /* History */

The '''Holy Synod of Milan''' originated as a [[diocese]] for Western Europe of an [[Old Calendarist]] Greek Orthodox Church (see also ''[[http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarist#The_Florinite.2FMatthewite_schism Florinites]]''). The full name of this jurisdiction is the '''Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of Milan, Western Europe and the Americas'''.

==History==
The diocese was granted a [[tomos]] of [[autonomy]] in 1984 from Archbishop Auxentios in order to pursue missionary work among the non-Orthodox people of the West. The title of the Synod at this time was the ''Metropolia of Western Europe''. After the transference of its first Chief Hierarch, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal, to the [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] [[Church of Poland]], Bishop Evloghios of Milan was chosen as second Chief Hierarch and elevated to the rank of [[metropolitan]].

Today Metropolitan Evloghios remains at the helm of the Holy Synod of bishops of the Church of Milan, which comprises eight [[diocese]]s, five in Europe and three in America, as well as missionary deaneries in England, France and South Africa.

As of 2008, the current makeup of the Synod is as follows.

In Europe:

Metropolitan EVLOGHIOS of Milan, First Hierarch

Archbishop ONUPHRIUS of Bergamo (Titular; the Archbishop is the Representative to Eastern Europe for the Synod)

Bishop ABBONDIO of Como

Bishop PABLO of Italica, bishop for Spain and Portugal

Bishop BORIS of Germany

In America, formerly the rank was as follows:

Archbishop HILARION of Austin

Archbishop JOHN of New York and New Jersey

Bishop PAVLOS of Maspeth (+2011)

The Milan Synod uses the [[Julian calendar]] exclusively, and "firmly resists the [[heresy|heresies]] of false [[ecumenism]] and trans-religious syncretism."[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm]

Since 1997 the Milan Synod includes a number of [[Western Rite]] communities, mainly in the United States, who worship according to pre-schismatic (historically Orthodox) liturgical traditions with the support of the Metropolitan and of the [[Holy Synod]] of Bishops. The principal rite of the Synod of Milan is the [[Byzantine Rite]] of the Orthodox Church, celebrated most commonly in the Slavic style but in some parishes in the Greek style.

On February 14/27, 2011, the Synod announced that it had granted full autonomy to its American Dioceses, elevating Archbishop JOHN of New York to the rank of Metropolitan and erecting the [[Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles]].

==Ecclesiastical status==
As with all of the [[Old Calendarist]] jurisdictions, the Milan Synod is not currently in communion with the mainstream Orthodox churches.

==Related articles==
*[[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)]] In March of 2011, it was announced that the Synod had entered into talks with the Moscow Patriarchate.

==Sources==
*[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm The Holy Synod of Milan] (from [http://www.odox.net/ Odox.net])

==External links==
* http://www.orthodoxchristians.eu Official Website of the Autonomous Orthodox Church of Milan (Holy Synod of Milan) (Italian, with Some English and Spanish)
* [http://www.orthodoxwest.net Official Website of the Archdiocese of New York and Eastern America, Milan Synod]
* [http://www.milansynodusa.org New Milan Synod Website for American Parishes] (English)
* [http://ihtis.wordpress.com News from the Milan Synod maintained by Bp Abbondio of Como]

[[Category:Jurisdictions]]
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]

Holy Synod of Milan

2011-03-09T01:57:52Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Related articles */

The '''Holy Synod of Milan''' originated as a [[diocese]] for Western Europe of an [[Old Calendarist]] Greek Orthodox Church (see also ''[[http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarist#The_Florinite.2FMatthewite_schism Florinites]]''). The full name of this jurisdiction is the '''Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of Milan, Western Europe and the Americas'''.

==History==
The diocese was granted a [[tomos]] of [[autonomy]] in 1984 from Archbishop Auxentios in order to pursue missionary work among the non-Orthodox people of the West. The title of the Synod at this time was the ''Metropolia of Western Europe''. After the transference of its first Chief Hierarch, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal, to the [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] [[Church of Poland]], Bishop Evloghios of Milan was chosen as second Chief Hierarch and elevated to the rank of [[metropolitan]].

Today Metropolitan Evloghios remains at the helm of the Holy Synod of bishops of the Church of Milan, which comprises eight [[diocese]]s, five in Europe and three in America, as well as missionary deaneries in England, France and South Africa.

As of 2008, the current makeup of the Synod is as follows.

In Europe:

Metropolitan EVLOGHIOS of Milan, First Hierarch

Archbishop LUCA of Torcello

Archbishop ONUPHRIUS of Bergamo (Titular; the Archbishop is the Representative to Eastern Europe for the Synod)

Bishop ABBONDIO of Como

Bishop PABLO of Italica, bishop for Spain and Portugal

Bishop BORIS of Germany

In America:

Archbishop HILARION of Austin

Archbishop JOHN of New York and New Jersey

Bishop PAVLOS of Maspeth (+2011)

The Milan Synod uses the [[Julian calendar]] exclusively, and "firmly resists the [[heresy|heresies]] of false [[ecumenism]] and trans-religious syncretism."[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm]

Since 1997 the Milan Synod includes a number of [[Western Rite]] communities, mainly in the United States, who worship according to pre-schismatic (historically Orthodox) liturgical traditions with the support of the Metropolitan and of the [[Holy Synod]] of Bishops. The principal rite of the Synod of Milan is the [[Byzantine Rite]] of the Orthodox Church, celebrated most commonly in the Slavic style but in some parishes in the Greek style.

On February 14/27, 2011, the Synod announced that it had granted full autonomy to its American Dioceses, elevating Archbishop JOHN of New York to the rank of Metropolitan and erecting the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles.

==Ecclesiastical status==
As with all of the [[Old Calendarist]] jurisdictions, the Milan Synod is not currently in communion with the mainstream Orthodox churches.

==Related articles==
*[[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)]] In March of 2011, it was announced that the Synod had entered into talks with the Moscow Patriarchate.

==Sources==
*[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm The Holy Synod of Milan] (from [http://www.odox.net/ Odox.net])

==External links==
* http://www.orthodoxchristians.eu Official Website of the Autonomous Orthodox Church of Milan (Holy Synod of Milan) (Italian, with Some English and Spanish)
* [http://www.orthodoxwest.net Official Website of the Archdiocese of New York and Eastern America, Milan Synod]
* [http://www.milansynodusa.org New Milan Synod Website for American Parishes] (English)
* [http://ihtis.wordpress.com News from the Milan Synod maintained by Bp Abbondio of Como]

[[Category:Jurisdictions]]
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]

Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles

2011-03-09T01:57:23Z

JosephSuaiden: New page: The Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles is an Old Calendarist jurisdiction which was originally comprised the Archdioceses of America and th...

Holy Synod of Milan

2011-03-09T01:52:00Z

JosephSuaiden: /* History */

The '''Holy Synod of Milan''' originated as a [[diocese]] for Western Europe of an [[Old Calendarist]] Greek Orthodox Church (see also ''[[http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarist#The_Florinite.2FMatthewite_schism Florinites]]''). The full name of this jurisdiction is the '''Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of Milan, Western Europe and the Americas'''.

==History==
The diocese was granted a [[tomos]] of [[autonomy]] in 1984 from Archbishop Auxentios in order to pursue missionary work among the non-Orthodox people of the West. The title of the Synod at this time was the ''Metropolia of Western Europe''. After the transference of its first Chief Hierarch, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal, to the [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] [[Church of Poland]], Bishop Evloghios of Milan was chosen as second Chief Hierarch and elevated to the rank of [[metropolitan]].

Today Metropolitan Evloghios remains at the helm of the Holy Synod of bishops of the Church of Milan, which comprises eight [[diocese]]s, five in Europe and three in America, as well as missionary deaneries in England, France and South Africa.

As of 2008, the current makeup of the Synod is as follows.

In Europe:

Metropolitan EVLOGHIOS of Milan, First Hierarch

Archbishop LUCA of Torcello

Archbishop ONUPHRIUS of Bergamo (Titular; the Archbishop is the Representative to Eastern Europe for the Synod)

Bishop ABBONDIO of Como

Bishop PABLO of Italica, bishop for Spain and Portugal

Bishop BORIS of Germany

In America:

Archbishop HILARION of Austin

Archbishop JOHN of New York and New Jersey

Bishop PAVLOS of Maspeth (+2011)

The Milan Synod uses the [[Julian calendar]] exclusively, and "firmly resists the [[heresy|heresies]] of false [[ecumenism]] and trans-religious syncretism."[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm]

Since 1997 the Milan Synod includes a number of [[Western Rite]] communities, mainly in the United States, who worship according to pre-schismatic (historically Orthodox) liturgical traditions with the support of the Metropolitan and of the [[Holy Synod]] of Bishops. The principal rite of the Synod of Milan is the [[Byzantine Rite]] of the Orthodox Church, celebrated most commonly in the Slavic style but in some parishes in the Greek style.

On February 14/27, 2011, the Synod announced that it had granted full autonomy to its American Dioceses, elevating Archbishop JOHN of New York to the rank of Metropolitan and erecting the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles.

==Ecclesiastical status==
As with all of the [[Old Calendarist]] jurisdictions, the Milan Synod is not currently in communion with the mainstream Orthodox churches.

==Related articles==
*[[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)]] In March of 2010, it was announced that the Synod had entered into talks with the Moscow Patriarchate.

==Sources==
*[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm The Holy Synod of Milan] (from [http://www.odox.net/ Odox.net])

==External links==
* http://www.orthodoxchristians.eu Official Website of the Autonomous Orthodox Church of Milan (Holy Synod of Milan) (Italian, with Some English and Spanish)
* [http://www.orthodoxwest.net Official Website of the Archdiocese of New York and Eastern America, Milan Synod]
* [http://www.milansynodusa.org New Milan Synod Website for American Parishes] (English)
* [http://ihtis.wordpress.com News from the Milan Synod maintained by Bp Abbondio of Como]

[[Category:Jurisdictions]]
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]

Holy Synod of Milan

2011-03-09T01:51:23Z

JosephSuaiden: /* History */

The '''Holy Synod of Milan''' originated as a [[diocese]] for Western Europe of an [[Old Calendarist]] Greek Orthodox Church (see also ''[[http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarist#The_Florinite.2FMatthewite_schism Florinites]]''). The full name of this jurisdiction is the '''Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of Milan, Western Europe and the Americas'''.

==History==
The diocese was granted a [[tomos]] of [[autonomy]] in 1984 from Archbishop Auxentios in order to pursue missionary work among the non-Orthodox people of the West. The title of the Synod at this time was the ''Metropolia of Western Europe''. After the transference of its first Chief Hierarch, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal, to the [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] [[Church of Poland]], Bishop Evloghios of Milan was chosen as second Chief Hierarch and elevated to the rank of [[metropolitan]].

Today Metropolitan Evloghios remains at the helm of the Holy Synod of bishops of the Church of Milan, which comprises eight [[diocese]]s, five in Europe and three in America, as well as missionary deaneries in England, France and South Africa.

As of 2008, the current makeup of the Synod is as follows.

In Europe:

Metropolitan EVLOGHIOS of Milan, First Hierarch

Archbishop LUCA of Torcello

Archbishop ONUPHRIUS of Bergamo (Titular; the Archbishop is the Representative to Eastern Europe for the Synod)

Bishop ABBONDIO of Como

Bishop PABLO of Italica, bishop for Spain and Portugal

Bishop BORIS of Germany

In America:

Archbishop HILARION of Austin

Archbishop JOHN of New York and New Jersey

Bishop PAVLOS of Maspeth

The Milan Synod uses the [[Julian calendar]] exclusively, and "firmly resists the [[heresy|heresies]] of false [[ecumenism]] and trans-religious syncretism."[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm]

Since 1997 the Milan Synod includes a number of [[Western Rite]] communities, mainly in the United States, who worship according to pre-schismatic (historically Orthodox) liturgical traditions with the support of the Metropolitan and of the [[Holy Synod]] of Bishops. The principal rite of the Synod of Milan is the [[Byzantine Rite]] of the Orthodox Church, celebrated most commonly in the Slavic style but in some parishes in the Greek style.

On February 14/27, 2011, the Synod announced that it had granted full autonomy to its American Dioceses, elevating Archbishop JOHN of New York to the rank of Metropolitan and erecting the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles.

==Ecclesiastical status==
As with all of the [[Old Calendarist]] jurisdictions, the Milan Synod is not currently in communion with the mainstream Orthodox churches.

==Related articles==
*[[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)]] In March of 2010, it was announced that the Synod had entered into talks with the Moscow Patriarchate.

==Sources==
*[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm The Holy Synod of Milan] (from [http://www.odox.net/ Odox.net])

==External links==
* http://www.orthodoxchristians.eu Official Website of the Autonomous Orthodox Church of Milan (Holy Synod of Milan) (Italian, with Some English and Spanish)
* [http://www.orthodoxwest.net Official Website of the Archdiocese of New York and Eastern America, Milan Synod]
* [http://www.milansynodusa.org New Milan Synod Website for American Parishes] (English)
* [http://ihtis.wordpress.com News from the Milan Synod maintained by Bp Abbondio of Como]

[[Category:Jurisdictions]]
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]

Holy Synod of Milan

2011-03-09T01:49:09Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Related articles */

The '''Holy Synod of Milan''' originated as a [[diocese]] for Western Europe of an [[Old Calendarist]] Greek Orthodox Church (see also ''[[http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarist#The_Florinite.2FMatthewite_schism Florinites]]''). The full name of this jurisdiction is the '''Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of Milan, Western Europe and the Americas'''.

==History==
The diocese was granted a [[tomos]] of [[autonomy]] in 1984 from Archbishop Auxentios in order to pursue missionary work among the non-Orthodox people of the West. The title of the Synod at this time was the ''Metropolia of Western Europe''. After the transference of its first Chief Hierarch, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal, to the [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] [[Church of Poland]], Bishop Evloghios of Milan was chosen as second Chief Hierarch and elevated to the rank of [[metropolitan]].

Today Metropolitan Evloghios remains at the helm of the Holy Synod of bishops of the Church of Milan, which comprises eight [[diocese]]s, five in Europe and three in America, as well as missionary deaneries in England, France and South Africa.

As of 2008, the current makeup of the Synod is as follows.

In Europe:

Metropolitan EVLOGHIOS of Milan, First Hierarch

Archbishop LUCA of Torcello

Archbishop ONUPHRIUS of Bergamo (Titular; the Archbishop is the Representative to Eastern Europe for the Synod)

Bishop ABBONDIO of Como

Bishop PABLO of Italica, bishop for Spain and Portugal

Bishop BORIS of Germany

In America:

Archbishop HILARION of Austin

Archbishop JOHN of New York and New Jersey

Bishop PAVLOS of Maspeth

The Milan Synod uses the [[Julian calendar]] exclusively, and "firmly resists the [[heresy|heresies]] of false [[ecumenism]] and trans-religious syncretism."[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm]

Since 1997 the Milan Synod includes a number of [[Western Rite]] communities, mainly in the United States, who worship according to pre-schismatic (historically Orthodox) liturgical traditions with the support of the Metropolitan and of the [[Holy Synod]] of Bishops. The principal rite of the Synod of Milan is the [[Byzantine Rite]] of the Orthodox Church, celebrated most commonly in the Slavic style but in some parishes in the Greek style.

==Ecclesiastical status==
As with all of the [[Old Calendarist]] jurisdictions, the Milan Synod is not currently in communion with the mainstream Orthodox churches.

==Related articles==
*[[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)]] In March of 2010, it was announced that the Synod had entered into talks with the Moscow Patriarchate.

==Sources==
*[http://www.odox.net/Synod.htm The Holy Synod of Milan] (from [http://www.odox.net/ Odox.net])

==External links==
* http://www.orthodoxchristians.eu Official Website of the Autonomous Orthodox Church of Milan (Holy Synod of Milan) (Italian, with Some English and Spanish)
* [http://www.orthodoxwest.net Official Website of the Archdiocese of New York and Eastern America, Milan Synod]
* [http://www.milansynodusa.org New Milan Synod Website for American Parishes] (English)
* [http://ihtis.wordpress.com News from the Milan Synod maintained by Bp Abbondio of Como]

[[Category:Jurisdictions]]
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]

Irenaios I (Skopelitis) of Jerusalem

2011-02-13T23:06:15Z

JosephSuaiden: New info

[[Image:Irenaios Skopeliti.jpg|right|Patriarch Irenaios I of Jerusalem]]
Fr. '''Irenaios (Skopelitis)''' was the [[patriarch]] of the [[Church of Jerusalem]] from 2001 to 2005. Patr. Irenaios was [[deposition|deposed]] by the Holy Synods of the [[Church of Jerusalem]] and the [[Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre]] for unauthorized sale of church property.

==Life==
Born '''Emmanouil Skopelitis''' in April 1939, Irenaios was elected [[primate]] of the [[Church of Jerusalem]] on [[August 13]], 2001 in the [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Church of the Holy Sepulchre]].

He was enthroned on [[September 15]], 2001, as the 140th ''Patriarch of the Holy City of Jerusalem and All Palestine, Syria, beyond the Jordan River, Cana of Galilee and Holy Zion'' in the presence of senior church and secular dignitaries, including Archbishop [[Christodoulos (Paraskevaides) of Athens|Christodoulos]] of the [[Church of Greece]] and Metropolitan Nicholas of the [[Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia]].

He was born on the Island of Samos in Greece and came to Jerusalem in 1953 and served for many years as [[exarch]] of the Holy Sepulchre in Athens.

Only a few years into Irenaios's patriarchate, he became embroiled in bitter controversy. Several parcels of church-owned land in the Old City of Jerusalem were sold to Israeli developers. As most of the Orthodox Christians in the region are Palestinian, and the land was in a Arab-populated area that most Palestinians hoped would become as a part of a future Palestinian capital, this caused a great deal of outrage among Church members. On [[May 5]], 2005, most of the [[Holy Synod]] of Jerusalem announced in a letter they had broken relations with Patr. Irenaios, and regarded him as dismissed as Patriarch of Jerusalem.

The decision reached by the Holy Synod of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre was made final on [[May 6]], 2005 by a two-thirds vote of that body. Irenaios thus officially ceased to be patriarch at that point.

On [[May 24]], 2005, a special Pan-Orthodox [[synod]] was convened in Constantinople to review the decisions of the Holy Synod of Jerusalem. The Pan-Orthodox Synod under the presidency of Ecumenical Patriarch [[Bartholomew I (Archontonis) of Constantinople]] voted overwhelmingly to confirm the decision of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre and to strike Irenaios's name from the [[diptychs]], and on [[May 30]], Jerusalem's Holy Synod chose Metropolitan [[Cornelius (Rodousakis) of Petra]] to serve as ''[[locum tenens]]'' pending the election of a replacement for Irenaios.

On [[June 16]], 2005, Irenaios was [[laicization|laicized]] by Jerusalem's Holy Synod, so he is now known simply as the [[monk]] Irenaios.

On January 6, 2011, the Associated Press released an article claiming that Irenaios refused to recognize the deposition, considered himself the legitimate Patriarch, and that he has been under house arrest for years.

On February 9. 2011, Metropolitan [[Agafangel (Pashkovsky) of Odessa|Agafangel]] of the [[Russian Orthodox Church Abroad - Provisional Supreme Church Authority|ROCOR-A]], sometimes called the "PSCA", stated on his LiveJournal that his jurisdiction had formally established communion with Irenaios. [http://agafa-angel.livejournal.com/34131.html]

{{start box}}
{{succession|
before=?|
title=Archbishop of Hierapolis|
years=1981-2001|
after=?}}
{{succession|
before=[[Diodoros I (Karivalis) of Jerusalem|Diodoros I]]|
title=[[Church of Jerusalem|Patriarch of Jerusalem]]|
years=2001-2005|
after=[[Theophilus III (Giannopoulos) of Jerusalem|Theophilus III]]}}
{{end box}}

==Source==
*[[Wikipedia:Patriarch Irenaios]]

==External links==
* [http://www.gopoj.org/ "Official site"] of the "Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem" (Irenaios's supporters)
* [http://www.monastery.org/patriarchate.html Biography of Patriarch Irenaios and other facts about the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem]
* [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4517223.stm BBC News report of Patriarch Irenaios's dismissal]
* [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9438806 Ousted patriarch behind locked doors in Jerusalem]. ''Guardian.co.uk''. AP foreign, Thursday January 6 2011.

[[Category:Bishops]]
[[Category:Bishops of Hierapolis]]
[[Category:Monastics]]
[[Category:Patriarchs of Jerusalem]]

The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)

2010-08-29T22:58:33Z

JosephSuaiden: /* External link */

{{westernrite}}The '''Abbey of the Holy Name''' is a [[Western Rite]] [[monastery]] of the [[Old Calendarists|Old Calendarist]] [[Holy Synod of Milan]] established in West Milford, New Jersey with the blessing of Metropolitan William (Brothers) in 1973 and Metropolitan Joseph prior to his repose in 1990.

The abbey was the continuing monastic institution which succeeded St. Dunstan's Priory in Woodstock, New York. St. Dunstan's had been moved to Woodstock, New York, in 1940 by Metropolitan William when he transferred the priory and his see from Waukegan, Illinois. Following its destruction by fire in 1948, it was temporary relocated thereafter to Overlook Mountain. The former location of the priory is still the present site of the Milan Synod's Orthodox Parish of the Holy Transfiguration (Western Rite), considered a spiritual institution in the area[http://wavelinks.net/cottocom.htm].

==Jurisdiction==

[[Image:AbbeyCatholicon.jpg|left|thumb|The Chapel at the Abbey of The Holy Name]]The abbey is within the [[Old Calendarists|Old Calendarist]] jurisdiction of the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of Western Europe and the Americas since 1997, which is more commonly known as the [[Holy Synod of Milan]]. The abbot is Archbishop John (Lobue) of New York and New Jersey.

===History===

St Dunstan's originally formed as an Old Catholic Monastery, the abbey's parent body was apparently first involved in the confused "American Church" movement, and so the Prior, William (Brothers) was made a received and reordained-- having been ordained an Old Catholic Archbishop-- by [[Theophan (Noli) of Durres|Bishop Theophan Noli]] and Christopher (Contegeorge), a Bishop of questionable repute in America on June 30, 1934 at [[St. Nicholas Cathedral (New_York, New_York)|St Nicholas Cathedral, New York]]. The monastery and attached parishes incorporated as the "Western Orthodox Catholic Church".

In 1962, the communities were received as Western Rite communities of the Moscow Patriarchate and granted then Archbishop William the title of "exarch", but the Patriarchate repeatedly requested that Abp William go to Russia to be reconsecrated. This led to suspicion that there were political motives involved, and so the exarch delayed the trip until he was ordered to go to Moscow in January, 1966. Due to alleged manipulations of KGB interference they left the Moscow Patriarchate and came into communion with the ''Ukrainian Autonomous Orthodox Church in Exile'' under Archbishop Palladius (Rudenko), one of the founders of SCOBA.

Under Palladius' leadership permission was granted to establish this Western Rite church on its own as the ''Synod of Orthodox Bishops of the Western Rite'' with parishes and monasteries in America, Great Britain and Yugoslavia. In 1973, after the repose of Abp. Palladios, these churches severed all communications with the [[Ecumenical Patriarchate]] due to latter's allegedly extensive involvement in [[ecumenism]]. It was this year Schema-Abbot John (LoBue) was elected by the St. Dunstan community, and the abbey was relocated to West Milford, NJ.

In 1978, the name of the abbey was changed to ''Abbey of the Holy Name'' and, on [[September 21]], 1980, Schema-Abbot John was consecrated Bishop of the Northeast (USA) by First Hierarch Metropolitan Joseph and Archbishop Hilarion of Texas. Since then the abbey has housed the diocesan offices and the St. Gregory Orthodox Liturgical Press. Many ecclesiastical dignitaries have visited the abbey during its existence, including Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney|Hilarion of Australia]] ([[ROCOR]]) and Bishop Germain of Saint-Denis ([[Orthodox Church of France|ECOF]]). Schema-Bishop Theodore (Irtel) of Old Valaam lived the last 7 years of his life at the abbey and reposed there on [[November 21]], 1997.

===Current===

In 1997, the bishops of the Milan Synod, which had by then received a second [[Tomos]] confirming their autonomy in connection with the [[Church of Ukraine (Kiev Patriarchate)]] by Patriarch Voldymir of Kiev, received the bishops of the Western Rite Synod into the Milan Synod by a new granting of [[ordination]]. At the same time, Bishop John, who had served as ''[[locum tenens]]'' for First Hierarch after the repose of Metropolitan Joseph in 1990, was given the position of Archbishop of New York and New Jersey. He retained this title after being received into the Milan Synod through chierothesia.

==Western Rite work and Services==

The monastery has been [[Western Rite]] for virtually the whole of its existence. Originally using the Tridentine liturgy with Overbeck's modifications (which combined forms the basis of the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory]],) the monastery began the pioneering work of translating the services of the [[Sarum Rite]], a process that took over two decades. In 1993, the ''Medieval Monastic Psalter'' was published in a series of over thirty volumes, employing the traditional language used in the West for centuries in an Orthodox text. The texts contain all the parts needed to employ the full cycle of services and Divine Liturgy used in the pre-schism Sarum Rite, thus making the texts the first completely translated pre-schism Western liturgies in centuries.

The monastery continues to sponsor Western rite initiatives and missions in the Archdiocese through the provision of texts and translations provided on the basis of need, and also guides the Western Rite missions of the [[Holy Synod of Milan|Milan Synod]] and assists with those who seek information about the ancient Western rite. The monastery itself still uses the Sarum rite for the daily cycle of services.

In 2008, the texts of the ''Medieval Monastic Psalter'' were approved for use in the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]].

==External link==
*[http://holynameabbey.org Abbey of the Holy Name website]
*[http://milansynodusa.org/press.html St Gregory's Press], the publishing arm of the Archdiocese, operated by Holy Name Abbey

[[Category:Western Rite]]
[[Category:Old Calendarist Monasteries|Holy]]
[[Category:Monasteries|Holy]]

Basilio (Grillo Miceli) of Ravenna and L'Aquila

2009-05-17T06:43:10Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Life */

Metropolitan '''Basilio (Grillo Miceli)''' is the current head of the [[Chiesa Ortodossa in Italia|Orthodox Church in Italy]] (in Italian "Chiesa Ortodossa in Italia") and the [[Metropolitan]] of [[Ravenna (Italy)|Ravenna]], L'Aquila and Italy.

==Life==
Metr. Basilio was born on [[July 18]], 1937 in Vittoria (near Ragusa, Sicily). In 1981 he was [[ordination|ordained]] a [[priest]] in the [[Russian Orthodox Church]]. In 1995 he became [[bishop]] of Ostia under the [[Old Calendarists|Old Calendarist]] [[Holy Synod of Milan]]. In 1996 he became [[Archbishop]] of Ostia.

In 2008 he joined the [[Chiesa Ortodossa in Italia|Orthodox Church in Italy]], as vicar of [[Antonio (de Rosso) of Ravenna|Metropolitan Antonio]] and Archbishop of Florence. After Metropolitan Antonio's death, on 16 March 2009 he became the new Archbishop of [[Ravenna]] and L'Aquila and [[Metropolitan]] of Italy.

==Source==
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilio_Grillo_Miceli Basilio Grillo Miceli (Wikipedia)]

==External link==
*[http://www.chiesaortodossa.it/metropolia.html Ortodossia Italiana] (Italian)

[[Category:Bishops]]

Western Rite

2009-04-26T16:01:59Z

JosephSuaiden: completing a sentence

The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church. Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold the full Orthodox faith in common with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]] but celebrate Western forms of liturgy. Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]]. At present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite.
{{westernrite}}
==Modern History==
===The Nineteenth Century===
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]]. Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy. He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church. In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years. A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.

The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite. A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend. The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the Tridentine [[Mass]]. This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission. Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility. He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.

In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879. There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material. In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.

However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite. Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure. Overbeck reposed in 1905.

One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox ("Jacobite") church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.

===The Twentieth Century===
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after. In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church. It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]

St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring. While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy. St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility. According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry. In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner. It concluded that such edits "can be carried out only on the spot, in America," and found it "desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop." Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew. Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907. However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].

There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations).

====The United States====
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes. The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961. Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971. At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General. On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.

Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC). Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status.

The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America. In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery ("Christminster" colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].

====Elsewhere====
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England. Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.

Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities. Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.

Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.

The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes. The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph René Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics. Vilatte, however, returned to the Roman Catholic Church at the end of his life. Many independent churches now claim to be under his "succession".

==Liturgy in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate==

North American Western Rite parishes in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both). The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen] Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called "Tridentine" Mass]. Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy. Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.

The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.

The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:

:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was "a work for specialists." The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by "a Commission of Orthodox Theologians," an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine "the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts." The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.

:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, "establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline," drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]

Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.

==Congregations==

By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]]. Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]].
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries: one located in Canada, one in Tasmania, and one in Florida. Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or "The English Liturgy," an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory. St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Use]]. St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.

Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied: "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies." [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]
[[Image:Confeitor.jpg|left|thumb|Hieromonk Aidan (Keller, ROCOR) celebrating a Sarum liturgy.]]
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield "in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal" at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. Hieromonk David utilizes the ordinary compiled by Mount Royal monastery, and is preparing for publication of the books of the Mount Royal use.

In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion received a hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), and blessed the publication of an new edition of his seminal work, ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR. His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the [[Milan Synod]].

Western rite communities can also be found which are not, or no longer, in communion with the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].

The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]—also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements. The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].

In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] Synod (and therefore not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]]), has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]]. This recension is different from the version of the Sarum Rite used within ROCOR before 2008.

==Criticism==
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite. Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]]. However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy. There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.

Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen. In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes—and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes—continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.

==See also==
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]
* [[Sarum Rite]]
* [[Gallican Rite]]
* [[Stowe Missal]]
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada
* [[Vestments]]

==Sources==
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]

==External links==
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania]
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)

===Liturgies===
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]]
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.

===Books===
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819

===Introduction and History===
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]: [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence] Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite.
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html "Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,"] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church: Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.

===Video===
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas

===Apologiae===
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite "FAQ"
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.

===Criticism===
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the "Western Rite"], ibid.
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on "Western Rite"]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the "Western Rite" In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The "Western Rite": Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson

===News and Views===
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]

===Listservs===
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: "Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen." Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR).
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Yahoo discussion group on the Western rite; moderated by Father Aidan (Keller).
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orthodoxwest/ Orthodoxwest]: Yahoo discussion group on Orthodoxy in the West and sponsored by the Eastern Archdiocese of the Milan Synod; moderated by Father Symeon (Bensimon-Kilmer).

[[Category:Featured Articles]]
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]
[[Category:Liturgics]]
[[Category:Western Rite]]

[[bg:Западен обряд]]
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]

Paschal greeting

2009-04-26T15:55:19Z

JosephSuaiden: /* The Paschal greeting around the world */ changing the Latin to (a) match liturgical Latin and (b) to be more gramatically correct: "Christus Resurrexit" is actually "Christ is Resurrected"

[[Image:Pascha.jpg|right|frame|The Resurrection of Christ]]
The '''Paschal greeting''' is a custom among Orthodox Christians, consisting of a greeting and response. Instead of "hello" or its equivalent, one is to greet another person with "Christ is Risen!" The response is "Truly, He is risen!" (or "Indeed, He is risen!"). This greeting is used during liturgical services and informally at other times, starting with the [[feast]] of [[Pascha]] and lasting until [[Ascension]], the period known as ''Paschaltide''.

In practice, this custom is usually restricted in use with people that one already knows are Orthodox. In some cultures (e.g., in Russia), it was also customary to exchange a triple kiss after the greeting. It is not uncommon for Orthodox Christians to compile lists of the greeting as it is used around the world, as an act of Orthodox unity across languages and cultures.

==The Paschal greeting around the world==
*Indo-European languages
**Germanic languages
***West Germanic languages
****Anglic languages
*****English - Christ is risen! Truly, He is Risen!
******Old English (Anglo-Saxon) - Crist aras! Crist sodhlice aras! (Lit: Christ arose! Christ surely arose!)
******Middle English - Crist is arisen! Arisen he sothe!
*****Iyaric Patwa - Krestos a uprisin! Seen, him a uprisin fe tru!
****Frisian - Kristus is opstien! Wis is er opstien!
****High German
*****German - Christus ist auferstanden! Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden!
*****Yiddish - Der Meschiache undzer iz geshtanen! Avade er iz ufgeshtanen!
****Low German
*****Dutch - Christus is opgestaan! Hij is waarlijk opgestaan!
*****Afrikaans - Kristus het opgestaan! Hom het waarlik opgestaan!
***North Germanic languages
****Danish - Kristus er opstanden! Sandelig Han er Opstanden!
****Icelandic - Kristur er upprisinn! Hann er vissulega upprisinn!
****Norwegian - Kristus er oppstanden! Han er sannelig oppstanden!
****Swedish - Kristus är uppstånden! Ja, Han är verkligen uppstånden!
**Italic languages
***Latin - Christus Surrexit! Surrexit vere!
***Romance languages
****Italian - Cristo è risorto! È veramente risorto!
****Catalan - Crist ha ressuscitat! Veritablement ha ressuscitat!
****French - Le Christ est ressuscité! Vraiment Il est ressuscité!
****Portuguese - Cristo ressuscitou! Verdadeiramente ressuscitou!
****Romanian - Hristos a înviat! Adevărat a înviat!
****Spanish - Cristo ha resucitado! Verdaderamente, ha resucitado!
**Slavic languages
***Church Slavonic - (Christos Voskrese! Voistinu Voskrese!)
***East
****Russian - Христос Воскресе! Воистину Воскресе! (Khristos Voskrese! Voistinu Voskrese!)
****Belarusian - Хрыстос уваскрос! Сапраўды ўваскрос! (Khrystos Uvaskros! Saprawdy Wvaskros!)
****Ukrainian - Христос Воскрес! Воістину Воскрес! (Khrystos Voskres! Voistynu Voskres!)
***South
****Bulgarian - Христос Возкресе! Воистина Возкресе! (Christos Vozkrese! Voistina Vozkrese!)
****Serbian - Христос Воскресе! Ваистину Воскресе! (Christos Voskrese! Vaistinu Voskrese!)
***West
****Czech - Kristus vstal z mrtvých! Vpravdě vstal z mrtvých!
****Slovak - Kristus vstal zmŕtvych! Skutočne vstal!
****Polish - Chrystus Zmartwychwstał! Zaprawdę Zmartwychwstał!
**Baltic languages
***Lithuanian - Kristus prisikėlė! Tikrai prisikėlė!
**Celtic languages
***Goidelic languages
****Old Irish - Asréracht Críst! Asréracht Hé-som co dearb!
****Irish - Tá Críost éirithe! Go deimhin, tá sé éirithe!
****Manx - Taw Creest Ereen! Taw Shay Ereen Guhdyne!
****Scots Gaelic - Tha Crìosd air èiridh! Gu dearbh, tha e air èiridh!
***Brythonic languages
****Breton - Dasorc'het eo Krist ! E wirionez eo dasorc'het !
****Welsh - Atgyfododd Crist! Yn wir atgyfododd!
**Indo-Iranian languages
***Indic languages
****Sanskrit - (Krista uttitaha! Satvam uttitaha!)
****Southern Zone
*****Marathi - (Yeshu Khrist uthla ahe! Kharokhar uthla ahe!)
**Albanian (Tosk) - Krishti u ngjall! Vërtet u ngjall!
**Armenian - Քրիստոս յարեաւ ի մեռելոց՜ Օրհնեալ է յայտնութիւնն Քրիստոսի՜ (Christos harjav i merelotz! Orhniale harutjun Christosi! -- Christ is risen! Blessed is the resurrection of Christ!)
**Greek - Χριστός Ανέστη! Αληθώς Ανέστη! (Christos Anesti! Aleithos Anesti!)
*Altaic languages
**Turkish - Hristós diril-Dí! Hakíkatén diril-Dí!
*Austronesian languages
**Malayo-Polynesian
***Western
****Chamorro - La'la'i i Kristo! Magahet na luma'la' i Kristo!
****Filipino (Tagalog) - Si Cristo ay nabuhay! Siya nga ay nabuhay!
****Indonesian - Kristus sudah bangkit! Dia benar sudah bangkit.
***Central-Eastern
****Carolinian - Lios a melau sefal! Meipung, a mahan sefal!
****Hawaiian - Ua ala hou ´o kristo! Ua ala ´i ´o no ´oia!
*Basque - Cristo Berbistua! Benatan Berbistua!
*Dravidian languages
**Malayalam - (Christu uyirthezhunnettu! Theerchayayum uyirthezhunnettu!)
*Eskimo-Aleut languages
**Aleut - Kristus aq ungwektaq! Pichinuq ungwektaq!
**Yupik - Xris-tusaq Ung-uixtuq! Iluumun Ung-uixtuq!
*Japanese - ハリストス復活！実に復活！ (Harisutosu fukkatsu! Jitsu ni fukkatsu!)
*Korean - 그리스도께서 부활하셨습니다! 참으로 부활하셨습니다! (Kristo Gesso Buhwal ha sho sumnida! Chamuro Buhwal ha sho sumnida!)
*Na-Dené languages
**Athabaskan languages
***Navajo - Christ daaztsáádéé' náádiidzáá! T'áá aaníí, daaztsáádéé' náádiidzáá!
**Tlingit - Xristos Kuxwoo-digoot! Xegaa-kux Kuxwoo-digoot!
*Niger-Congo languages
**Lugandan Kristo Azukkide! Kweli Azukkide!
**Swahili - Kristo Amefufukka! Kweli Amefufukka!
*Quechuan Languages
**Quechua - Cristo causarimpunña! Ciertopuni causarimpunña!
*Afro-Asiatic languages
**Semitic languages
***Central Semitic languages
****Aramaic languages
*****Syriac - (Meshiha qam! Bashrira qam!)
****South Central Semitic languages
*****Arabic languages
******Arabic (Fus'hah, i.e., "standard") - (Al-Masih-Qam! Hakkan Qam!)
******Maltese - Kristu qam! Huwa qam tassew!
*****Canaanite languages
******Hebrew (modern) - (Ha Masheeha houh kam! A ken kam!)
***South Semitic languages
****Ethiopian languages
*****North Ethiopian languages
******Tigrigna - (Christos tensiou! Bahake tensiou!)
*****South Ethiopian languages
******Amharic - (Kristos Tenestwal! Bergit Tenestwal!)
*Sino-Tibetan languages
**Mandarin - 基督復活了 他確實復活了 (Jīdū fùhuó le; tā quèshí fùhuó le!)
*South Caucasian languages
**Georgian - ქრისტე აღსდგა! ჭეშმარიტად აღსდგა! (Kriste aghsdga! Cheshmaritad aghsdga!)
*Uralic languages
**Estonian - Kristus on ülestõusnud! Tõesti on ülestõusnud!
**Finnish - Kristus nousi kuolleista! Totisesti nousi!
**Hungarian - Krisztus feltámadt! Valóban feltámadt!
*Unclassified
**A Nigerian language (of many spoken there) - Jésu Krísti Ébilíwõ! Ézia õ´ Bilíwõ!
*Constructed languages
**Esperanto - Kristo leviĝis! Vere Li leviĝis!
**Quenya - [[Image:Pascha_Tengwar.png|Tengwar Rendering]] (Ortanne Laivino! Anwa ortanne Laivino!)

==External links==
*[http://srbigham.com/en/ Paschal Polyglotta]: The Paschal greeting in 250 languages.
*[http://www.oca.org/PDF/Pascha/PaschalGreetingsWorld.pdf Paschal Greeting (PDF)] - Greetings in language alphabetic order.

[[Category:Church Life]]
[[Category:Feasts]]
[[Category:Liturgics]]

[[es:Saludo pascual]]
[[fr:Salutation pascale]]
[[ro:Hristos a înviat]]

Timeline of Church History

2009-02-21T06:44:07Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Modern era (1821-1917) */

(This is a large page that blanks out when edited as a full page, please edit one section at a time.)
{{Template:Timeline of Church History}}

{{Orthodoxchristianity}}
The '''History of the Church''' is a vital part of the Orthodox Christian faith. Orthodox Christians are defined significantly by their continuity with all those who have gone before, those who first received and preached the truth of [[Jesus Christ]] to the world, those who helped to formulate the expression and worship of our faith, and those who continue to move forward in the unchanging yet ever-dynamic [[Holy Tradition]] of the [[Orthodox Church]].

==New Testament era==
:''Main article: [[Timeline of Church History (New Testament Era)]]

*ca. 27 BC - AD 180 [[Pax Romana]].
*ca. 4 BC [[Nativity|Christ is born]] in Bethlehem; 14,000 [[Holy Innocents]] slain in Bethlehem.
*ca. 25-26 Death of [[Joseph the Betrothed]].
*ca. 28 [[John the Forerunner|John the Baptist]] begins ministry.
*ca. 28-30 Three year ministry of [[Jesus Christ]].
*ca. 30 Martyrdom of [[Apostle Stephen the Protomartyr|Stephen]] the deacon, first Christian martyr.
*30 Conversion of [[Apostle Paul]].

==Apostolic era (33-100)==
: Main article: ''[[Timeline of Church History (Apostolic Era (33-100))]]''

*33 [[Holy Spirit]] descends on the day of [[Pentecost]].
*34 [[Apostle Peter]] founds [[Church of Antioch|See of Antioch]].
*35 Name ''Christian'' first used in Antioch.
*37 [[Joseph of Arimathea]] travels to Britain and lands in [[Glastonbury]].
*40 [[Apostle Barnabas]] sent from Jerusalem to Antioch.
*ca. 42 [[Apostle Paul]]'s ecstasy to the third heaven (2 Cor.12:2-4).
*ca. 46-48 [[Apostle Paul]]'s first missionary journey, with [[Apostle Barnabas]].
*49 [[Apostolic Council of Jerusalem]] rules that Gentiles do not have to become Jews before becoming Christians.
*ca. 49-52 [[Apostle Paul]]'s second missionary journey, with [[Apostle Silas]].
*50 [[Apostle Matthew]] finishes the [[Gospel of Matthew]] in Aramaic.
*52 [[Apostle Thomas]] arrives in Kerala, introducing [[Church of India|Christianity to India]].
*ca. 53-57 [[Apostle Paul]]'s third missionary journey (Acts 18:23 - 21:16).
*ca. 59-62 [[Apostle Paul]]'s fourth missionary journey, voyage to Rome.
*62 Martyrdom of [[Apostle James the Just]]; crucifixion of [[Apostle Andrew]] in Patras.
*63 [[Aristobulus]] consecrated as first bishop of Britain.
*64-68 First of ten major persecutions of the early Church, [[w:Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire#Persecution_under_Nero.2C_64-68_A.D.|under Emperor Nero]].
*66 Flight of the Christian community in Jerusalem to [[w:Pella, Jordan|Pella]] and other places in the [[w:Decapolis|Decapolis]], and Antioch.
*67 Martyrdom of Apostles [[Apostle Peter|Peter]] and [[Apostle Paul|Paul]] in Rome; [[Apostle Linus]] elected first [[bishop]] of Rome.
*69 [[Ignatius of Antioch]] consecrated [[bishop]] of Antioch.
*70 [[Apostle Mark]] writes [[Gospel of Mark|Gospel]]; [[w:Herod's Temple|Temple in Jerusalem]] is destroyed by the Romans; expulsion of Christians from synagogues.
*71 [[Apostle Mark]] introduces Christianity to Egypt.
*80 [[Gospel of Luke]] written by the [[Apostle Luke]]; Titus dedicates [[w:Colosseum|Colosseum]], site of the martyrdom of many early Christians.
*ca. 80-90 ''[[Didache]]'' written.
*85 [[Acts of the Apostles]] written by [[Apostle Luke]].
*90 [[w:Council of Jamnia|Council of Jamnia (Javneh)]] marks final separation and distinction between the Jewish and Christian communities, including rejection of the [[Septuagint]] widely then in use among the Hellenized Jewish diaspora.
*95 [[Apostle John]] writes [[Book of Revelation]].
*ca. 90-96 [[w:Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire#Persecution_under_Domitian|Persecution of Christians under Emperor Domitian]] (2nd).
*96 [[Gospel of John]] written by [[Apostle John]].
*ca. 100 Emergence of [[w:Catacombs_of_Rome#Christian_catacombs_2|Christian Catacombs]].
*100 Death of [[Apostle John]].

==Ante-Nicene era (100-325)==
: ''Main article: [[Timeline of Church History (Ante-Nicene Era (100-325))]]''

*107 Martyrdom of [[Ignatius of Antioch]]; death of [[Apostle Symeon]].
*108-124 [[w:Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire#Persecution_under_Trajan|Persecution under Emperor Trajan]], continuing under Emepror Hadrian (3rd).
*120 Beginning of time of the Apologists: [[Justin Martyr]], [[Apostle Aristides|Aristides]], [[Tatian]], [[Athenagoras of Athens]], [[Theophilus]], [[Minucius Felix]], [[Tertullian]] and [[Apostle Quadratus|Quadratus]].
*124 Apostles [[Apostle Quadratus|Quadratus]] and [[Apostle Aristides|Aristides]] present Christian apologies to Emperor Hadrian at Athens.
*128 [[w:Aquila of Sinope|Aquila's]] Greek translation of the [[Old Testament]].
*130 [[Conversion]] of [[Justin Martyr]].
*132 Jews, led by Bar Kochba, whom some identify as the Messiah, revolt against Rome.
*135 [[Christmas]] instituted as a [[feast day]] in Rome.
*136 Emperor Hadrian crushes Jewish resistance, forbids Jews from returning Jerusalem, and changes city name to ''Aelia Capitolina''; first recorded use of title ''Pope'' for the bishop of Rome by Pope [[Hyginus of Rome|Hyginus]].
*144 Excommunication of [[Marcion]].
*150 [[Justin Martyr]] describes [[Divine Liturgy]].
*155 Martyrdom of [[Polycarp of Smyrna]].
*156 Beginning of [[Montanism]].
*165 Martyrdom of [[Justin Martyr|Justin]].
*166 Pope [[Soter]] inaugurates in Rome a separate annual feast for [[Pascha]], in addition to the weekly [[Lord's Day|Sunday]] celebrations of the [[Resurrection]], which is also held on a Sunday, in contrast to the [[Quartodeciman|Quartodecimans]].
*ca. 175 Tatian's [[w:Diatessaron|Diatessaron]] harmonizes the four canonical gospels into single narrative.
*177-180 [[w:Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire#Persecution_under_Marcus_Aurelius|Persection under Emperor Marcus Aurelius]] (161-180) (4th).
*180 [[Irenaeus of Lyons]] writes ''Against Heresies''; [[Dyfan]] first martyr in British Isles.
*180-192 [[w:Theodotion|Theodotion's]] Greek translation of the [[Old Testament]].
*193-211 [[w:Symmachus the Ebionite|Symmachus']] Greek translation of the [[Old Testament]].
*197 [[Quartodeciman]] controversy.
*200 Martyrdom of [[Irenaeus of Lyons]].
*202 Emperor Septimus Severus issues edict against Christianity and [[Judaism]]; Martyrdom of [[Haralampus of Magnesia]].
*202-210 [[w:Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire#Persecution_under_Septimus_Severus|Persecution under Emperor Septimius Severus]] (193-211) (5th).
*206 King Abgar IX converts Edessa to Christianity.
*ca. 209 Martyrdom of [[Alban]] in Britain.
*210 [[Hippolytus of Rome]], bishop and martyr and last of Greek-speaking fathers in Rome, writes ''[[w:Refutation of all Heresies|Refutation of All Heresies]]'' (''Philosophumena''), and ''Apostolic Tradition''.
*215 Conversion of [[Tertullian]] to [[Montanism]].
*225 Death of [[Tertullian]].
*ca. 225-250 ''[[w:Didascalia Apostolorum|Didascalia Apostolorum]]'' written.
*227 [[Origen]] begins ''Commentary on Genesis'', completes work on ''First Principles''.
*235-238 [[w:Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire#Persecution_under_Maximinus_the_Thracian|Persecution under Emperor Maximinus Thrax]] (6th); martyrdom of St. [[Hippolytus of Rome]].
*238 During reigns of Gordian and [[w:Philip the Arab|Philip the Arab]] Church preaches openly and increasingly attracts well-educated converts.
*ca. 240 [[Origen]] produces [[Hexapla]].
*244 [[w:Plotinus|Plotinus]] founds [[w:Neoplatonism|Neoplatonist]] school in Rome in opposition to Church.
*246 [[Paul of Thebes]] becomes in Egypt first Christian hermit.
*247 Rome celebrates thousandth anniversary, witnessing a period of increased persecution of Christians.
*248 [[Origen]] writes ''Against Celsus'' that the [[Pax Romana|Roman Empire was ordained by God]].
*249-251 [[w:Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire#Persecution_under_Decius_Trajan|Persecution under Emperor Decius]] (7th).
*257-260 [[w:Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire#Persecution_under_Valerian|Persecution under Emperor Valerian]] (253-260) (8th).
*258 Martyrdom of [[Cyprian of Carthage]].
*260 [[Paul of Samosata]] begins preaching against the divinity of Christ; Synod in Rome condemns Sabellianism and Subordinationism.
*264 Excommunication of [[Paul of Samosata]].
*265 ''[[Homoousios]]'' used for first time by Modalist Monarchians of Cyrene.
*274-275 [[w:Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire#Persecution_under_Aurelian|Persecution under Emperor Aurelian]] (9th).
*270 Death of [[Gregory the Wonderworker|Gregory Thaumaturgus]]; [[w:Porphyry of Tyre|Porphyry of Tyre]] writes ''Against the Christians''.
*284 [[Diocletian]] becomes Roman emperor, persecutes Church and martyrs an estimated one million Christians; martyrdom of [[Cosmas and Damian (Rome)|Cosmas and Damian]], Andrew Stratelates ("the General") and 2,593 soldiers with him in Cilicia.
*285 [[Anthony the Great]] flees to desert.
*300 Christian population reaches about 6,200,000, or 10.5% of the population of the Roman Empire.
*301 [[Gregory the Illuminator]] converts King Tiridates I of Armenia to the Christian faith.
*302 20,000 Martyrs burned at Nicomedia.
*303 Outbreak of the [[w:Diocletianic Persecution|Great Persecution]] (303-311) (10th); martyrdom of [[George the Trophy-bearer]].
*ca. 305-311 [[Lactantius]] writes ''[[Divinae Institutiones]]''.
*ca. 306 [[w:Synod of Elvira|Synod of Elvira]] requires clerical celibacy and sets severe disciplinary penalties for apostasy and adultery, becoming the pattern in the West.
*308 Pope [[w:Pope Marcellus I|Marcellus]] opposes leniency for Christians who lapsed under persecution.
*310 Armenia becomes first Christian nation; persecution of Christians under Persian King [[w:Shapur II|Shapur II]] (310-379).
*311 Galerius issues Edict of Toleration, ending persecution of Christians in his part of the Roman Empire; [[Donatism|Donatist]] rebellion in Carthage.
*312 Vision and conversion of [[Constantine the Great]]; defeat of Maxentius at the [[Battle of Milvian Bridge]], making Constantine Emperor of the West; martyrdom of [[Lucian of Antioch]].
*313 [[Edict of Milan]] issued by [[Constantine the Great]] and co-emperor Licinius, officially declaring religious freedom in the Roman Empire.
*314 [[Council of Ancyra]] held; [[Council of Arles]] condemns [[Donatism]].
*315 [[Council of Neo-Caesaria]] held.
*318 Publication of ''[[On the Incarnation]]'' by [[Athanasius the Great]]; beginnings of [[Arianism|Arian Controversy]].
*318 [[Pachomius the Great]] organizes a community of ascetics at Tabennis in Egypt, founding [[cenobitic]] [[monasticism]].
*320 Expulsion of [[Arius]] by [[Alexander of Alexandria]]; martyrdom of [[Forty Martyrs of Sebaste]].
*320-21 Licinius' measures against Christians in the East enforced.
*321 [[Constantine the Great|Constantine]] declares [[Lord's Day|Sunday]] a holiday in honor of the [[Resurrection]].
*323 [[Constantine the Great]] builds church on the site of the martyrdom of [[Apostle Peter|Peter]] in Rome.
*324 [[Constantine the Great|Constantine]] defeats Licinius and becomes sole emperor.
==Nicene era (325-451)==
: ''Main article: [[Timeline of Church History (Nicene Era (325-451))]]''

*325 [[First Ecumenical Council]] held in Nicea, condemning [[Arianism]], setting the [[Paschalion]], and issuing the first version of the [[Nicene Creed]], also establishing the supremacy of honor of the Apostolic Sees as Rome, followed by Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.
*326 Discovery of the [[True Cross]] by the Empress [[Helen]]a; King Miraeus of Georgia becomes Christian.
*328 [[Athanasius the Great]] becomes bishop of Alexandria.
*329 [[Athanasius of Alexandria|Athanasius]] ordains [[Frumentius]] (Abba Selama) to [[priest]]hood and commissions him to evangelize Ethiopia.
*330 Byzantium refounded as ''Constantinople / New Rome'', Christian capital of the Roman Empire, and is dedicated to the [[Theotokos]] by Emperor [[Constantine the Great|Constantine]]; Amoun and [[Macarius the Great]] found monasteries in the Egyptian desert.
*336-338 [[Athanasius the Great]] goes into exile in Treves, telling Europeans about the monastic rule of [[Pachomius the Great]], awakening interest in [[monasticism]] in Europe.
*337 Death of [[Constantine the Great|Constantine]].
*340 Conversion of [[Wulfila]] to [[Arianism]].
*341 [[Council of Antioch]] held; Emperor Constans bans pagan sacrifices and magic rituals under penalty of death.
*345 Death of [[Nicholas of Myra]].
*348 Death of [[Pachomius the Great]] and [[Spyridon of Trimythous]].
*350 [[Ninian]] establishes the church Candida Casa at Whithorn in Galloway, Scotland, beginning the missionary effort to the Picts.
*351 Apparition of the [[Cross]] over Jerusalem.
*355 Death of [[Nino of Cappadocia]].
*356 Death of [[Anthony the Great]].
*357 [[Council of Sirmium]] issues ''Blasphemy of Sirmium''.
*358 [[Basil the Great]] founds monastery of Annesos in Pontus, the model for Eastern [[monasticism]].
*359 Councils of [[Council of Seleucia|Seleucia]] and [[Council of Rimini|Rimini]].
*360 [[Martin of Tours]] founds first French monastery at Liguge; first church of [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]] inaugurated by Emperor [[w:Constantius II|Constantius II]].
*362 Antiochian schism (362-414).
*361-63 [[Julian the Apostate]] becomes Roman emperor and attempts to restore paganism.
*363 Emperor [[w:Jovian|Jovian]] reestablishes Christianity as the official religion of the Empire.
*364 [[Council of Laodicea]] held.
*367 [[Athanasius of Alexandria]] writes [[Pascha]]l letter, listing for the first time the [[canon]] of the [[New Testament]]; death of [[Hilary of Poitiers]].
*373 Death of [[Athanasius the Great]] and [[Ephrem the Syrian]].
*374 Election of [[Ambrose of Milan|Ambrose]] as bishop of Milan.
*375 [[Basil the Great]] writes ''[[On the Holy Spirit]]''.
*376 Visigoths convert to [[Arianism|Arian]] Christianity.
*379 Death of [[Basil the Great]]; Emperor Gratian's rescript ''Ordinariorum Sententias'' extends power of Bishop of Rome by allowing him authority over bishops within his own jurisdiction.
*380 Christianity established as the official faith of the Roman Empire by Emperor [[Theodosius the Great]]; [[Council of Saragossa]] condemns [[Priscillianism]].
*381 [[Second Ecumenical Council]] held in Constantinople, condemning [[Pneumatomachianism|Macedonianism/Pneumatomachianism]] and [[Appollinarianism]], declaring the divinity of the Holy Spirit, confirming the previous [[Ecumenical Council]], and completing the [[Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed]]; [[Council of Aquileia]] led by [[Ambrose of Milan]] deposes Arian bishops.
*382 Pope [[Siricius of Rome]] first to bear title ''Pontifex Maximus''.
*384 Council of Bordeaux condemns [[Priscillian]].
*385 Death of [[Gregory of Nyssa]].
*386 Death of [[Cyril of Jerusalem]].
*387 [[Augustine of Hippo|Augustine]] baptized by [[Ambrose of Milan]].
*391 Death of [[Gregory the Theologian]].
*391-92 Closing of all non-Christian temples in the Empire; [[Theodosius the Great (emperor)|Theodosius the Great]] ends pagan Eleusinian Mysteries by decree and causes surviving pagan sacrifices at Alexandria and Rome to cease.
*392 Death of [[Macarius the Great]].
*393 [[Council of Hippo]] publishes Biblical canon; Emperor Theodosius bans Olympic Games as a pagan festival.
*394 [[Epiphanius of Salamis]] attacks teachings of [[Origen]] as heretical; Council of Constantinople held; [[Donatism|Donatist]] [[Council of Bagai]] in Africa held.
*395 [[Augustine of Hippo|Augustine]] becomes bishop of Hippo in North Africa; placing of the cincture of the [[Theotokos]] in the Church of the Virgin in Halkoprateia-Constantinople.
*395 Re-division of Empire with death of Emperor Theodosius the Great.
*397 [[Council of Carthage]] publishes Biblical canon; death of [[Martin of Tours]] and [[Ambrose of Milan]].
*398 [[John Chrysostom]] becomes [[Archbishop]] of Constantinople.
*ca. 398 Martyrdom of 10,000 Fathers of the Scetis by Patriarch [[Theophilus of Alexandria]].
*399 [[Anastasius of Rome]] and other bishops condemn doctrine of [[Origen]].
*401 [[Augustine of Hippo]] writes ''Confessions''; Pope [[Innocent I of Rome]] supports [[John Chrysostom]] and condemns [[pelagianism]].
*402 [[Porphyry of Gaza]] obtains imperial decree ordering closing of pagan temples in Gaza.
*403 Abduction of [[Patrick of Ireland|Patrick]] to Irelande; visit of [[Victricius of Rouen]] to Britain; [[Synod of the Oak]] held near Chalcedon, deposing and exiling [[John Chrysostom]].
*404 Martyrdom of [[Telemachus]], resulting in Emperor Honorius' edict banning gladiator fights.
*405 Translation of [[Holy Scriptures]] into Latin as the [[Vulgate]] by [[Jerome]].
*407 Death of [[John Chrysostom]] in exile.
*410 Fall of Rome to the Visigoths under Alaric I; escape of [[Patrick of Ireland|Patrick]] back to Britain; Emperor Honorius tells Britain to attend to its own affairs, effectively removing the Roman presence.
*410 [[Council of Seleucia]] declares Mesopotamian [[Nestorianism|Nestorian]] bishops independent of Orthodox bishops.
*411 [[Pelagius]] condemned at council in Carthage; [[Rabbula of Edessa|Rabbula]] becomes bishop of Edessa.
*412 [[Cyril of Alexandria|Cyril]] succeeds his uncle Theophilus as Pope of Alexandria; Honorius outlaws [[Donatism]]; Bishops Lazarus of Aix-en-Provence and Herod of Arles expelled from sees on a charge of [[Manichaeism]]; ''[[Byzantine Creation Era#Alexandrian Era|Alexandrian Creation Era]]'' date finalized at 25 March, 5493 BC.
*414 Resolution of Antiochian division.
*415 [[Pelagius]] cleared at [[synod]] in Jerusalem and a provincial synod in Diospolis (Lydda); [[John Cassian]] founds convent at Marseilles.
*416 Councils in Carthage and Milevis condemn [[Pelagius]] and convince Pope Innocent I of Rome to excommunicate him.
*418 Foundation of the Arian [[w:Visigothic Kingdom|Visigothic Kingdom]], as Emperor Honorius rewards Visigoth federates by giving them land in Gallia Aquitania on which to settle.
*418-24 Council in Carthage anathematizes [[Pelagianism]] by way of endorsing [[Augustine of Hippo|Augustinian]] [[anthropology]].
*426 [[Augustine of Hippo]] writes ''The City of God''.
*428 [[Nestorius]] becomes patriarch of Constantinople.
*429 Pope [[Celestine of Rome|Celestine I]] dispatches prominent Gallo-Roman Bishops [[Germanus of Auxerre]] and Lupus of Troyes to Britain as missionary bishops and to combat the [[Pelagianism|Pelagian]] heresy; death of [[Sisoes the Great]].
*430 [[Peter the Iberian]] founds Georgian monastery near Bethlehem.
*431 [[Third Ecumenical Council]] held in Ephesus, condemning [[Nestorianism]] and [[Pelagianism]], confirming the use of the term ''[[Theotokos]]'' to refer to the Virgin Mary, and confirming [[autocephaly]] of [[Church of Cyprus]]; Pope Celestine sends [[Palladius]] to Ireland.
*432 Return of [[Patrick of Ireland|Patrick]] to Ireland to begin missionary work; death of [[Ninian]], Apostle to the Picts.
*433 [[Formulary of Peace]] completes work of [[Third Ecumenical Council]] by reconciling [[Cyril of Alexandria]] with [[John of Antioch]].
*435 Death of [[John Cassian]] and [[Acacius of Melitene]]; [[Nestorius]] exiled by imperial edict to a monastery in a Sahara oasis.
*438 [[w:Codex Theodosianus|Codex Theodosianus]] published.
*439 Carthage falls to Vandals.
*444 Death of [[Cyril of Alexandria]]; Pope [[Leo the Great]] abolishes Gallican vicariate.
*445 Founding of monastery at Armagh in northern Ireland; Emperor Valentinian III issues decree recognizing primacy of the bishop of Rome.
*447 Earthquake in Constantinople, when a boy was lifted up to heaven and heard the [[Trisagion]].
*449 [[Robber Synod of Ephesus]], presided over by [[Dioscorus of Alexandria]], with an order from the emperor to acquit [[Eutyches (heretic)|Eutyches]] the [[Monophysitism|Monophysite]].
*450 First monasteries established in Wales; death of [[Peter Chrysologus]].

==Byzantine era (451-843)==
: ''Main article: [[Timeline of Church History (Byzantine Era (451-843))]]''

*451 [[Fourth Ecumenical Council]] meets at Chalcedon, condemning [[Eutychianism]] and [[Monophysitism]], affirming doctrine of two perfect and indivisible but distinct natures in Christ, and recognizing [[Church of Jerusalem]] as patriarchate.
*452 [[Proterios of Alexandria]] convenes synod in Alexandria to reconcile Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians; second finding of the Head of [[John the Forerunner]].
*457 Victorius of Aquitania computes new [[Paschalion]]; first coronation of Byzantine Emperor by patriarch of Constantinople.
*459 Death of [[Symeon the Stylite]].
*461 Death of [[Leo the Great]] and [[Patrick of Ireland]].
*462 [[Indiction]] moved to [[September 1]]; [[Studion Monastery]] founded.
*466 [[Church of Antioch]] elevates bishop of Mtskheta to rank of [[Catholicos]] of Kartli, rendering the [[Church of Georgia]] [[autocephaly|autocephalous]].
*ca. 471 Patr. [[Acacius of Constantinople]] first called ''Oikoumenikos'' ("Ecumenical").
*473 Death of [[Euthymius the Great]].
*475 Emperor [[w:Basiliscus|Basiliscus]] issues letter to bishops of empire, supporting [[Monophysitism]].
*477 [[Timothy Aelurus]] of Alexandria exiles Chalcedonian bishops from Egypt.
*482 Byzantine emperor [[Zeno|Zeno I]] issues ''[[Henotikon]]''.
*484 [[Acacian Schism]].
*484 Founding of [[Holy Lavra of St. Savas (Jerusalem)|Mar Sabbas Monastery]] by [[Sabbas the Sanctified]]; [[Synod of Beth Lapat]] in Persia declares [[Nestorianism]] as official theology of [[Assyrian Church of the East]], effectively separating the Assyrian church from the Byzantine church.
*489 Emperor [[Zeno I]] closes [[w:School of Nisibis|Nestorian academy in Edessa]], which was then transferred under Sassanian Persian auspices to Nisibis, becoming the spiritual center of the [[Assyrian Church of the East]].
*490 [[Brigid of Kildaire]] founds monastery of Kildare in Ireland.
*494 Pope [[Gelasius I of Rome]] delineates relationship between Church and state in his letter ''Duo sunt'', written to Emperor [[Anastasius I]].
*496 [[Remigius of Rheims]] baptizes Franks into Orthodox Christianity.
*ca. 500 [[Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite]] writes ''The Mystical Theology''.
*506 [[Church of Armenia]] separates from Chalcedonian Orthodoxy.
*507 Clovis I defeats the Arian Visigoths at [[w:Battle of Vouillé|Battle of Vouillé]] near Poitiers, ending their power in Gaul.
*518 [[Severus of Antioch]] deposed by Emperor [[Justin I]] for Monophysitism; Patr. [[John II of Constantinople]] is addressed as ''Oikoumenikos Patriarches'' ("Ecumenical Patriarch").
*519 Eastern and Western churches reconciled with end of [[Acacian Schism]].
*521 Birth of [[Columba of Iona]].
*527 [[Dionysius Exiguus]] calculates the date of birth of Jesus incorrectly; foundation of [[St. Catherine's Monastery (Sinai)|St. Catherine's Monastery]] on the Sinai peninsula by [[Justinian the Great]].
*529 Pagan University of Athens closed and replaced by Christian university in Constantinople; [[Benedict of Nursia]] founds monastery of [[Monte Cassino]] and codifies Western [[monasticism]]; [[Council of Orange]] condemns [[Pelagianism]]; death of [[Theodosius the Great]].
*529-534 [[Justinian the Great|Justinian]]'s ''[[w:Corpus Juris Civilis|Corpus Juris Civilis]]'' issued.
*530 [[Brendan the Navigator]] lands in Newfoundland, Canada, establishing a short-lived community of Irish monks.
*532 [[Justinian the Great]] orders building of [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]]; death of [[Sabbas the Sanctified]].
*533 Mercurius elected Pope of Rome and takes the name of [[John II of Rome|John II]], first pope to change name upon election.
*534 Roman Empire destroys the Arian kingdom of Vandals.
*536 [[Mennas of Constantinople]] summons a synod anathematizing [[Severus of Antioch]].
*537 Construction of [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]] in Constantinople completed.
*539 [[Ravenna]] becomes exarchate of [[Byzantine Empire]].
*541 [[Jacob Baradeus]] organizes the [[Oriental Orthodox|Non-Chalcedonian Church]] in western Syria (the "Jacobites"), which spreads to Armenia and Egypt.
*543 Doctrine of [[apokatastasis]] condemned by Synod of Constantinople.
*544 [[Jacob Baradeus]] consecrates Sergius of Tella as bishop of Antioch, opening the lasting schism between the [[Church of Antioch (Syriac)|Syriac Orthodox Church]] and the Chalcedonian [[Church of Antioch]]; founding of the monastery at Clonmacnoise in Ireland by [[Ciaran of Clonmacnoise|Ciaran]].
*545 [[David of Wales]] moves primatial see of Britain from Caerleon to Menevia (St. Davids's).
*546 [[Columba of Iona|Columba]] founds monastery of Derry in Ireland.
*547 [[David of Wales]] does obeisance to the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
*553 [[Fifth Ecumenical Council]] held in Constantinople in an attempt to reconcile Chalcedonians with non-Chalcedonians— ''[[Three Chapters]]'' of [[Theodore of Mopsuestia]], [[Theodoret of Cyrrhus]], and [[Ibas of Edessa]] are condemned for their [[Nestorianism]], and [[Origen]] and his writings are also condemned.
*553 Bishops of Aquileia, Milan, Venetia and the Istrian peninsula in Italy all refuse to condemn the ''Three Chapters'', causing [[Schism of the Three Chapters]] in those areas, leading to independence of [[Patriarch of Venice]] from [[Patriarch of Aquileia]]; Ostrogoth kingdom conquered by the Byzantines after the [[w:Battle of Mons Lactarius|Battle of Mons Lactarius]].
*554 [[Church of Armenia]] officially [[schism|breaks]] with West in 554, during the second Council of Dvin where the dyophysite formula of [[Fourth Ecumenical Council|Chalcedon]] was rejected.
*556 [[Columba of Iona|Columba]] founds monastery of Durrow in Ireland; death of [[Roman the Melodist]].
*557 [[Brendan the Navigator]] founds monastery at Clonfert, Ireland.
*563 [[Columba of Iona|Columba]] arrives on [[Iona]] and establishes [[monastery]] there, founding mission to the Picts.
*569 Final schism between Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians in Egypt; [[David of Wales]] holds [[Synod of Victoria]] to re-assert anti-Pelagian decrees of Brefi.
*579 400 Martyrs slain by Lombards in Sicily.
*580 [[Monte Cassino]] sacked by Lombards, sending its monks fleeing to Rome; Slavs begin to migrate into the Balkans and Greece.
*587 Visigoth King [[w:Reccared I|Reccared]] renounces [[Arianism]] in favor of [[Orthodoxy]].
*589 [[Council of Toledo]] adds [[Filioque]] to [[Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed]] in an attempt to combat [[Arianism]].
*590 [[Columbanus]] founds monasteries in France.
*593 [[Anastasius I of Antioch|Anastasius the Sinaite]] restored as Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch.
*596 [[Gregory the Dialogist]] sends [[Augustine of Canterbury|Augustine]] along with forty other monks to southern Britain to convert pagans.
*597 Death of [[Columba of Iona]].
*598 [[Glastonbury Abbey]] founded.
*ca. 600 ''[[The Ladder of Divine Ascent]]'' written by [[John Climacus]]; [[Gregory the Dialogist]] inspires development of [[Gregorian Chant]] through his liturgical reforms.
*601 [[Augustine of Canterbury]] converts King [[Ethelbert of Kent]] and establishes see of Canterbury.
*602 [[Augustine of Canterbury]] meets with Welsh bishops to bring them under Canterbury.
*604 [[Mellitus]] becomes first bishop of London and founds first [[w:St Paul's Cathedral|St. Paul's Cathedral]]; death of [[Gregory the Dialogist]].
*605 Death of [[Augustine of Canterbury]].
*610 [[Heraclius]] changes official language of the Empire from Latin to [[w:Medieval Greek|Greek]], already the ''lingua franca'' of the vast majority of the population.
*612 [[Holy Sponge]] and [[Holy Lance]] brought to Constantinople from Palestine.
*614 Persians sack Jerusalem under Chosroes II of Persia; [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Church of the Holy Sepulchre]] damaged by fire, [[True Cross]] captured, and over 65,000 Christians in Jerusalem massacred.
*615 Death of [[Columbanus]] in Italy.
*617 Persian Army conquers Chalcedon after a long siege.
*626 [[Akathist|Akathist Hymn]] to the Virgin Mary written.
*627 Emperor [[Heraclius]] defeats Sassanid Persians at [[w:Battle of Nineveh (627)|Battle of Nineveh]], recovering [[True Cross]] and breaking Sassanid power.
*630 Second [[Elevation of the Holy Cross]].
*633 Death of [[Modestus of Jerusalem]].
*635 Founding of [[Lindisfarne]] Monastery by [[Aidan of Lindisfarne|Aidan]]; Cynegils, king of Wessex, converts to Christianity.
*636 Capture of [[Jerusalem]] by Muslim Arabs after [[w:Battle of Yarmouk|Battle of Yarmuk]].
*640 [[w:Muslim conquest of Syria|Muslim conquest of Syria]]; [[w:Battle of Heliopolis|Battle of Heliopolis]] between Arab Muslim armies and Byzantium opens door for Muslim conquest of Byzantine [[w:Exarchate of Africa|Exarchate of Africa]].
*641 Capture of Alexandria by Muslim Arabs.
*642 Muslim conquest of Egypt.
*646 Alexandria recaptured by Muslim Arabs after Byzantine attempt to retake Egypt fails, ending nearly ten centuries of [[w:Greco-Roman|Greco-Roman]] civilization in Egypt.
*648 Pope [[Theodore I of Rome]] excommunicates patriarch [[Paul II of Constantinople]].
*649 Arabs invade and conquer Cyprus.
*650 Final defeat of [[Arianism]] as Lombards convert to Orthodoxy.
*653 Pope [[Martin the Confessor]] arrested on orders of Byzantine Emperor [[Constans II]].
*654 Invasion of Rhodes by Arabs.
*655 Martyrdom of [[Martin the Confessor]].
*657 Founding of [[Whitby Abbey]] in Yorkshire, England.
*662 Death of [[Maximus the Confessor]].
*663 Emperor [[Constans II]] is last Eastern emperor to set foot in Rome; [[Constans II]] declares Pope of Rome to have no jurisdiction over Archbishop of Ravenna, since that city was the seat of the exarch, his immediate representative.
*664 [[Synod of Whitby]] held in northern England, adopting Roman calendar and tonsures in Northumbria; [[Iona|Ionian]] monk [[Wilfrid of York|Wilfrid]] appointed as Archbishop of York.
*669-78 [[w:Siege of Constantinople (674)|First Arab siege of Constantinople]]; at [[w:Battle of Syllaeum|Battle of Syllaeum]] Arab fleet destroyed by Byzantines through use of [[w:Greek Fire|Greek Fire]], ending immediate Arab threat to eastern Europe.
*670 Composition of ''Caedmon's Hymn'' by [[Caedmon]] of [[Whitby Abbey|Whitby]].
*672 First Synod of Hertford called by [[Theodore of Tarsus]], adopting of ten decrees paralleling the canons of the Council of Chalcedon.
*673 Second Council of Hatfield upholds Orthodoxy against [[Monothelitism]].
*680-681 [[Sixth Ecumenical Council]] held in Constantinople, condemning [[Monothelitism]] and affirming [[Christology]] of [[Maximus the Confessor]], affirming that Christ has both a human will and a divine will; Patr. [[Sergius of Constantinople]] and Pope [[Honorius of Rome]] are both explicitly [[anathema]]tized for their support of Monothelitism.
*682 Foundation of [[Monkwearmouth-Jarrow Abbey]] in England.
*685 First monastics come to [[Mount Athos]]; death of [[Anastasius of Sinai]].
*685 [[John Maron]] elected first Maronite patriarch, founding the [[Maronite Catholic Church]], which embraced [[Monothelitism]], rejected the teaching of the [[Fifth Ecumenical Council]], and separated from the [[Orthodox Church]].
*687 Destruction of [[Whitby Abbey]] by Danish Vikings; death of [[Cuthbert of Lindisfarne]].
*688 Emperor [[Justinian II]] and Caliph [[w:Abd al-Malik|al-Malik]] sign treaty neutralizing Cyprus.
*ca. 690 Witenagamot of England forbids church appeals to Rome.
*691 [[w:Dome of the Rock|Dome of the Rock]] completed in Jerusalem.
*692 [[Quinisext Council]] (also called the ''Penthekte Council'' or ''Council in Trullo'') held in Constantinople, issuing [[canon]]s completing the work of the Fifth and Sixth [[Ecumenical Councils]], and declaring the [[Church of Jerusalem]] to be a [[patriarchate]].
*694 Byzantine army of [[Justinian II]] defeated by [[Maronite Catholic Church|Maronites]], who became fully independent.
*697 [[Council of Birr]] accepts Roman [[Paschalion]] for northern Ireland; at this synod, [[Adomnán of Iona]] promulgates his [[w:Cáin Adomnáin|Cáin Adomnáin]].
*698 Muslim conquest of Carthage; at [[Synod of Aquileia]], bishops of the diocese of Aquileia end the [[Schism of the Three Chapters]] and return to communion with Rome.
*ca. 700 Death of [[Isaac of Syria]].
*707 Death of [[John Maron]].
*710 Pope [[Constantine of Rome|Constantine]] makes last papal visit to Constantinople before 1967.
*712 Death of [[Andrew of Crete]].
*ca. 715 [[Lindisfarne Gospels]] produced in Northumbria (Northern England).
*715 [[w:Umayyad Mosque|Grand Mosque of Damascus]] built over the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist; Al-Aqsa Mosque constructed over site of [[Church of St. Mary of Justinian (Temple Mount, Jerusalem)|Church of St. Mary of Justinian]]; Pictish [[w:Nechtan IV of the Picts|King Nechtan]] invites Northumbrian clergy to establish Christianity amongst the Picts.
*716 Monastery at [[Iona]] conforms to Roman liturgical usage; [[Boniface]]'s first missionary journey to Frisia.
*717 Pictish king Nechtan expels monks from [[Iona]].
*717-18 [[w:Siege of Constantinople (718)|Second Arab siege of Constantinople]].
*719 [[w:Nubia#Christian Nubia|Nubian Christians]] transfer allegiance from [[Church of Alexandria|Chalcedonian church]] to [[Church of Alexandria (Coptic)|Coptic church]].
*723 [[Boniface]] fells Thor's Oak near Fritzlar.
*726 [[Iconoclasm|Iconoclast]] Emperor [[Leo the Isaurian]] starts campaign against [[iconography|icons]].
*730 [[Leo the Isaurian]] orders destruction of all icons, beginning the First Iconoclastic Period.
*731 [[Bede]] completes ''[[Ecclesiastical History of the English People]]''.
*732 Muslim invasion of Europe stopped by Franks at [[w:Battle of Tours|Battle of Tours]], establishing a balance of power between Western Europe, Islam and the [[Byzantine Empire]].
*733 Byzantine Emperor [[Leo the Isaurian]] withdraws the Balkans, Sicily and Calabria from the jurisdiction of the Pope in response to Pope [[Gregory III of Rome]]'s support of a revolt in Italy against iconoclasm.
*734 [[Egbert of York|Egbert]] becomes bishop of York, founding a library and making the city a renowned centre of learning.
*735 Death of [[Bede]]; See of York achieves archepiscopal status.
*739 Emperor Leo III (717-41) publishes his ''[[w:Byzantine law#Ecloga|Ecloga]]'' , designed to introduce Christian principle into law; death of [[Willibrord]].
*742 After a forty-year vacancy, [[Stephen IV of Antioch|Stephen IV]] becomes Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, at the suggestion of Umayyad caliph Hisham ibn Abd al-Malik.
*747 Witenagamot of England again forbids appeals to the Roman Pope; [[Council of Clovesho I]] adopts Roman calendar, observance of the feasts of Gregory the Great and Augustine of Canterbury, and adopts the Rogation Days.
*749 Death of [[John of Damascus]].
*750 ''[[Donation of Constantine]]'' accepted as a legitimate document, used by Pope [[Stephen II of Rome|Stephen II]] to prove territorial and jurisdictional claims.
*751 Lombard king Aistulf captures [[Ravenna]] and the Romagna, ending Byzantine Exarchate of Ravenna.
*752 Death of Pope [[Zacharias of Rome]].
*754 [[Iconoclastic Council]] held in Constantinople under the authority of Emperor [[Constantine V Copronymus]], condemning icons and declaring itself to be the Seventh Ecumenical Council; Constantine begins dissolution of monasteries.
*754 Death of [[Boniface]].
*756 [[w:Donation of Pepin|Donation of Pepin]] cedes lands including Ravenna that became basis of [[w:Papal States|Papal States]].
*768 Wales adopts Orthodox [[Paschalion]] and other decrees of the Synod of Whitby at teaching of Elfoddw of Gwynedd.
*769 Pope [[Stephen III of Rome]] holds a council changing papal election procedure and confirming veneration of icons.
*772 Charlemagne starts fighting Saxons and Frisians; Saxony is subdued and converted to Christianity.
*781 King [[Charlemagne]] of the Franks summons [[Alcuin]] of York to head palace school at Aachen (Aix-la-Chapelle) to inspire revival of education in Europe.
*785 Synod of Cealchythe erects the Archbishopric of Lichfield.
*787 [[Seventh Ecumenical Council]] held in Nicea, condemning [[iconoclasm]] and affirming [[veneration]] of [[iconography|icons]]; two councils held in England, one in the north at Pincanhale, and the other in the south at Chelsea, reaffirming the faith of the first Six Ecumenical Councils (the decrees of the Seventh having not yet been received), and establishing a third archbishopric at Lichfield.
*792 Synod of Regensburg condemned Adoptionism.
*793 Sack of [[Lindisfarne|Lindisfarne Priory]], beginning Viking attacks on England.
*794 Charlemagne convenes council in Frankfurt-in-Main, rejecting decrees of Seventh Ecumenical Council and inserting [[Filioque]] into [[Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed]].
*800 [[Charlemagne]] crowned as Holy Roman Emperor by [[Leo III of Rome]] on [[Christmas]] day, marking the break of Frankish civilization away from the Orthodox Christian Roman Empire; [[Book of Kells]] produced in Ireland.
*800 Ambassadors of Caliph Harunu al-Rashid give keys to the [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Holy Sepulchre]] to Charlemagne, acknowledging some Frankish control over the interests of Christians in Jerusalem ; establishment of the [[Western Rite]] Monastery of Saint Mary in Jerusalem.
*801 Controversy in Jerusalem over Frankish pilgrims using [[Filioque]].
*803 [[Council of Clovesho II]] abolishes archbishopric of Lichfield, restoring the pattern of the two metropolitan archbishoprics (Canterbury and York) which had prevailed before 787, and requires the use of the [[Western Rite]] amongst the English speaking peoples.
*810 Pope Leo III bans use of [[Filioque]].
*814 Conflict between Emperor [[Leo V the Armenian|Leo V]] and Patr. [[Nicephorus I of Constantinople|Nicephorus]] over iconoclasm; Leo deposes Nicephorus, Nicephorus excommunicates Leo.
*826 [[Ansgar]] arrives in Denmark and begins preaching; King Harald Klak of Denmark converts to Christianity.
*828 Death of Patr. [[Nicephorus I of Constantinople]].
*ca. 829-842 Icon of the [[Panagia Portaitissa]] appears on [[Mount Athos]] near [[Iviron Monastery (Athos)|Iviron Monastery]].
*836 Death of [[Theodore the Studite]].

==Late Byzantine era (843-1453)==
:''Main article: [[Timeline of Church History (Late Byzantine Era (843-1453))]]''
*843 [[Triumph of Orthodoxy]] occurs on first Sunday of [[Great Lent]], restoring [[iconography|icons]] to churches.
*850 [[Third Finding of the Head of St. John the Forerunner|Third Finding]] of the head of [[John the Forerunner]].
*852 [[Ansgar]] founds churches at Hedeby and Ribe in Denmark.
*858 [[Photius the Great]] becomes patriarch of Constantinople.
*ca. 860 [[w:Christianization of the Rus' Khaganate|Christianization of the Rus' Khaganate]].
*861 [[Cyril and Methodius]] depart from Constantinople to [[Church of Russia#Conversion of the Slavs|missionize the Slavs]]; Council of Constantinople attended by 318 fathers and presided over by papal legates confirms [[Photius the Great]] as patriarch and passes 17 canons.
*862 [[Rastislav of Moravia]] converts to Christianity.
*863 First translations of [[Holy Scripture|Biblical]] and liturgical texts into [[Church Slavonic]] by [[Cyril and Methodius]].
*863 Venetians steal relics of [[Apostle Mark]] from Alexandria.
*864 Baptism of Prince [[Boris of Bulgaria]]; [[Synaxis]] of the [[Theotokos]] in Miasena in memory of the return of her icon.
*865 Bulgaria under Khan [[Boris of Bulgaria|Boris I]] converts to [[Orthodox Church|Orthodox Christianity]].
*866 Vikings raid and capture York in England.
*867 Council in Constantinople held, presided over by [[Photius the Great|Photius]], which anathematizes Pope [[Nicholas I of Rome]] for his attacks on work of Greek missionaries in Bulgaria and use by papal missionaries of [[Filioque]]; Pope Nicholas dies before hearing news of excommunication; [[Basil the Macedonian]] has Emperor [[Michael III]] murdered and usurps Imperial throne, reinstating Ignatius as patriarch of Constantinople.
*867 Death of [[Kassiani the Hymnographer|Kassiani]], Greek-Byzantine poet and hymnographer, who composed the ''[[Hymn of Kassiani]]'', chanted during [[Holy Week]] on Holy Wednesday.
*869-870 [[Robber Council of 869-870]] held, deposing [[Photius the Great]] from the Constantinopolitan see and putting the rival claimant Ignatius on the throne, declaring itself to be the "Eighth Ecumenical Council."
*870 Conversion of Serbia; death of [[Rastislav of Moravia]]; martyrdom of [[w:Edmund the Martyr|Edmund]], King of East Anglia.
*877 Death of [[Ignatius I of Constantinople]], who appoints [[Photius the Great|Photius]] to succeed him.
*878 King [[w:Alfred the Great|Alfred the Great]] of Wessex defeats Vikings; the Treaty of Wedmore divides England between the Anglo-Saxons and the Danes (the [[w:Danelaw|Danelaw]]).
*879-880 [[Eighth Ecumenical Council]] held in Constantinople attended by 383 fathers passing 3 canons, confirms [[Photius the Great|Photius]] as Patriarch of Constantinople, anathematizes additions to the [[Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed]], and declares that the prerogatives and jurisdiction of the Roman pope and the Constantinopolitan patriarch are essentially equal; the council is reluctantly accepted by Pope [[John VIII of Rome]].
*885 [[Mount Athos]] gains political autonomy.
*885 Death of [[Cyril and Methodius|Methodius]].
*886 [[w:Glagolitic alphabet|Glagolitic alphabet]], (now called [[w:Old Church Slavonic|Old Church Slavonic]]) adopted in Bulgarian Empire; St [[w:Alfred the Great|Alfred the Great]], King of Wessex, captures London from the Danes.
*910 [[Benedict of Nursia|Benedictine]] [[w:Cluny Abbey|Abbey of Cluny]] founded in France.
*899 Death of [[Alfred the Great]].
*911 [[Protection of the Mother of God|Holy Protection of the Virgin Mary]].
*912 Normans become Christian; [[w:Nicholas Mystikos|Nicholas I Mysticus]] becomes Patriarch of Constantinople.
*927 [[Church of Bulgaria]] recognized as [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] by [[Church of Constantinople|Constantinople]].
*931 Abbott [[w:Odo of Cluny|Odo of Cluny]] reforms monasteries in Aquitaine, northern France, and Italy, starting the [[w:Cluniac Reforms|Cluniac Reform movement]] within the [[Benedict of Nursia|Benedictine order]], focused on restoring the traditional monastic life, encouraging art and caring for the poor.
*935 Martyrdom of [[Wenceslaus]], prince of the Czechs.
*944 City of Edessa recovered by Byzantine army, including [[Icon Not Made By Hands]].
*945 [[Dunstan of Canterbury|Dunstan]] becomes Abbot of [[w:Glastonbury Abbey|Glastonbury]].
*957 [[Olga of Kiev]] baptized in Constantinople.
*960 Emperor [[Nicephorus II]] Phocas re-captures [[w:Crete|Crete]] for Byzantines; [[Dunstan of Canterbury|Dunstan]] becomes [[Archbishop of Canterbury]], reforming monasteries and enforcing rule of [[Benedict of Nursia|Benedict]].
*962 Denmark becomes Christian nation with [[baptism]] of King Harald Blaatand ("Bluetooth"); [[w:Holy Roman Empire|Holy Roman Empire]] formed, with Pope John XII crowning Otto I the Great Holy Roman Emperor.
*963 [[Athanasius of Athos]] establishes first major monastery on [[Mount Athos]], the [[Great Lavra (Athos)|Great Lavra]].
*965 Emperor [[Nicephorus II]] Phocas gains Cyprus completely for the Byzantines.
*969 Death of [[Olga of Kiev]]; Emperor [[w:Nikephoros II|Nikephoros II Phokas]] captures Antioch and Aleppo from Arabs.
*972 Emperor [[w:John I Tzimiskes|John I Tzimiskes]] grants [[Mount Athos]] its first charter ([[Typikon]]).
*973 [[w:Great Moravia|Moravia]] assigned to the Diocese of Prague, putting the West Slavic tribes under jurisdiction of German church.
*975 Emperor [[w:John I Tzimiskes|John I Tzimiskes]] in a Syrian campaign takes Emesa, Baalbek, Damascus, Tiberias, Nazareth, Caesarea, Sidon, Beirut, Byblos and Tripoli, but fails to take Jerusalem.
*978 Death of King [[Edward the Martyr]].
*980 Revelation of the ''[[Axion Estin]]'' (the hymn "It Is Truly Meet"), with the appearance of the [[Archangel Gabriel]] to a monk on [[Mount Athos]].
*980-5 The [[Western Rite|Western Rite]] Monastery of Amalfion is founded on [[Mount Athos|Mount Athos]].
*987 Sixth [[w:Rus'-Byzantine War (987)#Baptism of Vladimir|Rus-Byzantine War]], where [[Vladimir of Kiev]] dispatches troops to the Byzantine Empire to assist Emperor [[w:Basil II|Basil II]] with an internal revolt, agreeing to accept [[Orthodox Christianity]] as his religion and bring his people to the new faith.
*988 '[[Baptism of Rus']] begins with the conversion of [[Vladimir of Kiev]] who is baptized at [[w:Chersonesos|Chersonesos]], the birthplace of the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox churches; Vladimir marries Anna, sister of Byzantine emperor Basil II.
*992 Death of [[Michael of Kiev|Michael]], first Metropolitan of Kiev.
*995 [[Olaf of Norway]] proclaims Norway to be a Christian kingdom.
*1000 Conversion of Greenland and Iceland.
*1008 Conversion of Sweden.
*1009 Patr. [[Sergius II of Constantinople]] removes name of Pope [[Sergius IV of Rome]] from [[diptychs]] of [[Church of Constantinople|Constantinople]], because the pope had written a letter to the patriarch including the [[Filioque]].
*1009 [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Church of the Holy Sepulchre]] in Jerusalem destroyed by the "mad" Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, founder of the [[w:Druze|Druze]].
*1012 Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah issues oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians including the destruction of all Christian and Jewish houses of worship.
*1014 [[Filioque]] used for first time in Rome by Pope [[Benedict VIII of Rome|Benedict VIII]] at coronation of Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor.
*1015 Death of [[Vladimir of Kiev]].
*1017 Danish king Canute converts to Christianity.
*1022 Death of [[Simeon the New Theologian]].
*1027 Frankish protectorate over Christian interests in Jerusalem is replaced by a Byzantine protectorate, which begin reconstruction of [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Holy Sepulchre]].
*1034 Patriarch [[Alexius I of Constantinople|Alexius I Studites]] writes the first complete ''Studite [[Typikon]],'' for a monastery he established near Constantinople; this was the [[Typikon]] introduced into the Rus' lands by [[Theodosius of the Kiev Caves]].
*1036 Byzantine [[w:Michael IV the Paphlagonian|Emperor Michael IV]] makes a truce with the Caliph of Egypt to allow rebuilding of the [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Church of the Holy Sepulchre]] by Byzantine masons; [[w:Varangian Guard|Varangian Guard]] of the Byzantine Emperor sent to protect pilgrims.
*1043 [[Edward the Confessor|Edward the Confessor]] crowned King of England at Winchester Cathedral.
*1045-50 [[St. Sophia Cathedral (Novgorod)|Cathedral of Saint Sophia in Novgorod]] built, the oldest Orthodox church building in Russia, executed in an architectural style more austere than the Byzantine, reminiscent of the [[w:Romanesque architecture|Romanesque]].
*1048 Re-consecration of [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Holy Sepulchre]].
*1051 [[Monastery of the Kiev Caves]] founded.

==Post-Roman Schism (1054-1453)==

*1054 Cardinal [[Humbert]] excommunicates [[Michael Cerularius]], patriarch of Constantinople, a major centerpoint in the formation of the [[Great Schism]] between East and West; First Letter of [[Michael Cerularius]] to Peter of Antioch.
*1059 Errors of Berengar of Tours condemned in Rome; term ''transubstantiation'' begins to come in to use, ascribed to [[Peter Damian]].
*1064 [[w:Seljuk Turks|Seljuk Turks]] storm Anatolia taking Caesarea and Ani, conquering Armenia.
*1066 Normans invade England flying banner of Pope of Rome, defeating King [[Harold of England]] at Battle of Hastings.
*1066-1171 Beginning reformation of English church and society to align with Latin continental ecclesiology and politics.
*1071 [[w:Seljuk Turks|Seljuk Turks]] defeat Byzantines at the [[w:Battle of Manzikert|Battle of Manzikert]], beginning Islamification of Asia Minor; Norman princes led by [[w:Robert Guiscard|Robert Guiscard]] capture Bari, the last Byzantine stronghold in Italy, bringing to an end over five centuries of [[w:Catapanate of Italy|Byzantine rule in the south]].
*1073 Hildebrand becomes Pope [[Grgeory VII of Rome|Gregory VII]] and launches the [[w:Gregorian Reform|Gregorian reforms]] (celibacy of the clergy, primacy of papacy over empire, right of Pope to depose emperors); Seljuk Turks conquer Ankara.
*1074 Death of [[Theodosius of the Kiev Caves]].
*1075 ''[[w:Dictatus papae|Dictatus Papae]]'' document advances Papal supremacy.
*1077 The Seljuk Turks capture Jerusalem and kill 3,000 citizens; Seljuks capture Nicea.
*1084 Antioch is captured by the Seljuk Turks.
*1088 Founding of monastery of [[Apostle John|John the Theologian]] on Patmos; election of Pope [[w:Pope Urban II|Urban II]], a prominent member of the [[w:Cluniac Reforms|Cluniac Reform movement]] .
*1095 Launching of the [[w:First Crusade|First Crusade]].
*1098 Anselm of Canterbury completes ''Cur Deus homo'', marking a radical divergence of Western theology of the atonement from that of the East.
*1098 Crusaders capture Antioch.
*1099 Crusaders capture Jerusalem founding the [[w:Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem|Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem]] and other crusader states known collectively as "[[w:Outremer|Outremer]]."
*1108 Death of Nicetas of [[Monastery of the Kiev Caves|Kiev Caves]], Bishop of Novgorod.
*ca. 1131-45 Coptic Pope of Alexandria [[w:Pope Gabriel II of Alexandria|Gabriel II]] initiates addition of Arabic as a liturgical language with his Arabic translation of the [[Divine Liturgy|Liturgy]].
*1144 [[w:Second Crusade|Second Crusade]]; Muslims take Christian stronghold of Edessa.
*1149 Crusaders begin to renovate [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Church of the Holy Sepulchre]] in Romanesque style, adding a bell tower.
*1159 [[w:John of Salisbury|John of Salisbury]] authors ''[[w:Policraticus|Policraticus]]'', a treatise on government drawing from the [[Holy Scripture|Bible]], the [[w:Corpus Juris Civilis|Codex Justinianus]], and arguing for [[w:Divine Right of Kings|Divine Right of Kings]].
*1170 Miracle of the weeping icon of the [[Theotokos]] "of the Sign" at Novgorod; Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland; city of Dublin captured by the Roman Catholic Normans.
*1176 [[w:Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm|Sultanate of Rum]] defeats Byzantine Empire in the [[w:Battle of Myriokephalon|Battle of Myriokephalon]], marking end of Byzantine attempts to recover Anatolian plateau; Al-Adil I, Muslim ruler of Egypt, suppresses a revolt by Christian Copts in city of Qift, hanging nearly 3,000 of them.
*1180 Last formal acceptance of Latins to communion at an Orthodox altar in Antioch.
*1182 [[Maronite Catholic Church|Maronites]], who assisted the Crusaders during the Crusades, reaffirm their affiliation with Rome in 1182; dedication of [[w:Monreale#The_Cathedral|Monreale Cathedral]] in Sicily, containing the largest cycle of Byzantine mosaics extant in Italy.
*1186 Byzantine Empire recognizes independence of Bulgaria and Serbia.
*1187 [[w:Saladin|Saladin]] retakes Jerusalem after destroying crusader army at [[w:Battle of Hattin (1187)|Battle of Hattin]], and returns Christian holy places to [[Church of Jerusalem|Orthodox Church]].
*1189 [[w:Third Crusade|Third Crusade]] led by King Richard the Lion-Hearted of England, King Philip Augustus II of France, and Emperor Frederick Barbarossa.
*ca. 1189 Ethiopian Emperor [[w:Gebre Mesqel Lalibela|Gebre Mesqel Lalibela]] orders construction of [[w:Lalibela|Lalibela]].
*1204 [[Fourth Crusade]] [[Sacking of Constantinople|sacks Constantinople]], laying waste to the city and stealing many [[relics]] and other items; [[Great Schism]] generally regarded as having been completed by this act; [[w:Theodore I Laskaris|Theodore I Lascaris]] establishes the [[w:Empire of Nicaea|Empire of Nicaea]].
*ca.1207 [[w:Stephen Langton|Stephen Langton]] divides the Bible into the defined modern chapters in use today.
*ca.1220 English Bp. [http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Poore Richard Le Poore ] is said to have been responsible for the final form of the "[[Sarum Use|Use of Sarum]]", which had the sterling reputation of being the best liturgy anywhere in the West.
*1228 [[w:Sixth Crusade|Sixth Crusade]] results in 10-year treaty starting in 1229 between Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II and Egyptian sultan; Jerusalem ceded to Franks, along with a narrow corridor to the coast, as well as Nazareth, Sidon, Jaffa and Bethlehem.
*1231 [[w:Medieval Inquisition|Papal Inquisition]] initiated by Pope Gregory IX, charged with suppressing heresy.
*1235 Death of [[Sava of Serbia]].
*1237 Golden Horde begin [[Church of Russia#Mongol Tartars over Russia (1237-1448)|subjugation of Russia]].
*1240 Mongols sack Kiev; Prince [[Alexander Nevsky]] defeats Swedish army at [[Battle of the Neva]].
*1242 [[Alexander Nevsky]]'s Novgorodian force defeats Teutonic Knights in [[w:Battle of the Ice|Battle of Lake Peipus]], a major defeat for the Catholic crusaders.
*1244 Jerusalem conquered and razed by [[w:Khwarezm|Khwarezmian]] mercenaries (Oghuz Turks) serving under the [[w:Ayyubid dynasty|Ayyubid]] ruler of Egypt Salih Ayyub, triggering Seventh Crusade.
*1247 [[w:Ayyubid dynasty|Ayyubids]] conquer Jerusalem, driving out the Khwarezmian Turks.
*1258 [[Michael VIII Palaiologos]] seizes the throne of the Nicaean Empire, founding the last Roman (Byzantine) dynasty, beginning reconquest of Greek peninsula from Latins.
*1259 Byzantines defeat Latin [[w:Principality of Achaea|Principality of Achaea]] at the [[w:Battle of Pelagonia|Battle of Pelagonia]], marking the beginning of the Byzantine recovery of Greece.
*ca. 1259-80 Martyrdom by Latins of monks of [[Iveron Monastery (Athos)|Iveron Monastery]].
*1260 Subjugation of [[Church of Cyprus]] to the [[Roman Catholic Church]].
*1261 End of Latin occupation of Constantinople and restoration of Orthodox patriarchs; Emperor [[Michael VIII Palaiologos]] makes [[Mystras]] seat of the new [[w:Despotate of Morea|Despotate of Morea]], where a Byzantine renaissance occurred.
*1268 Egyptian Mamelukes capture Antioch.
*1269 Orthodox patriarch returns to Antioch after a 171-year exile and usurpation by Latin patriarch.
*1274 Second [[Council of Lyons]] held, proclaiming union between the Orthodox East and the Roman Catholic West, but generally unaccepted in the East.
*1275 Unionist Patriarch of Constantinople [[John XI Beccus of Constantinople|John XI Beccus]] elected to replace Patriarch [[Joseph I Galesiotes of Constantinople|Joseph I Galesiotes]], who opposed [[Council of Lyons]]; 26 martyrs of Zographou monastery on [[Mount Athos|Mt. Athos]], martyred by the Latins.
*ca. 1280 ''[[w:Kebra Nagast|Kebra Nagast]]'' ("Book of the Glory of Kings") compiled, a repository of Ethiopian national and religious feelings.
*1281 [[w:Pope Martin IV|Pope Martin IV]] authorizes a Crusade against the newly re-established [[Byzantine Empire]] in Constantinople, excommunicating Emperor [[Michael VIII Palaiologos]] and the Greeks and renouncing the union of 1274; French and Venetian expeditions set out toward Constantinople but are forced to turn back in the following year due to the [[w:Sicilian Vespers|Sicilian Vespers]].
*1291 Fall of Acre; end of crusading in Holy Land.
*1298 [[Ambrose of Milan|Ambrose]], [[Augustine of Hippo|Augustine]], [[Jerome]], and [[Gregory the Dialogist|Pope Gregory I]] are named collectively as the first Great [[w:Doctor of the Church|Doctors]] of the Western Church.
*1302 Papal Bull ''[[w:Unam sanctum|Unam Sanctum]]'' issued by Pope [[Boniface VIII of Rome|Boniface VIII]] proclaims Papal supremacy.
*1326 Metr. [[Peter of Moscow|Peter]] moves his see from Kiev to Vladimir and then to Moscow.
*1332 [[w:Amda Seyon I of Ethiopia|Amda Syon]], Emperor of Ethiopia begins his campaigns in the southern Muslim provinces, allowing for the spread of Christianity to frontier areas.
*1336 [[Meteora]] in Greece established as a center of Orthodox [[monasticism]].
*1338 [[Gregory Palamas]] writes ''Triads in Defense of the Holy Hesychasts'', defending the Orthodox practice of [[hesychasm|hesychast spirituality]] and the use of the [[Jesus Prayer]].
*1340 [[Holy Trinity-St. Sergius Lavra]] founded by [[Sergius of Radonezh]].
*1341-51 Three sessions of the [[Ninth Ecumenical Council]] held in Constantinople, affirming [[hesychasm|hesychastic]] theology of [[Gregory Palamas]] and condemning rationalistic philosophy of [[Barlaam of Calabria]].
*1342 Patriarchate of Antioch transferred to Damascus under [[Ignatius II of Antioch|Ignatius II]].
*1349 Prince [[Stephen Dushan]] of Serbia assumes the title of ''Tsar'' (Caesar); principality of [[w:Galicia (Central Europe)|Galicia]] (Halitsh) comes under Polish control.
*1354 Ottoman Turks make first settlement in Europe at Gallipoli.
*1359 Death of [[Gregory Palamas]].
*1360 Death of [[John Koukouzelis]] the Hymnographer.
*1379 Western Great Schism ensues, including simultaneous reign of three Popes of Rome.
*ca. 1380 English Church reformer John Wyclif writes that the true faith is preserved only in the East, "among the Greeks."
*1382-95 [[w:Wyclif's Bible|First English Bible]] translated by John Wyclif.
*1383 [[Stephen of Perm]], missionary to Zyrians, consecrated bishop; appearance of [[Theotokos of Tikhvin]] icon.
*1385 [[w:Union of Krewo|Kreva Agreement]] provides for conversion of Lithuanian nobles and all pagan Lithuanians to Roman Catholicism, joining Grand Duchy of Lithuania with the Kingdom of Poland through a dynastic union.
*1387 [[w:Christianization of Lithuania|Lithuania converts to Roman Catholicism]], while most [[w:Ruthenians|Ruthenian]] lands (Belarus and Ukraine) remain Orthodox.
*1389 Serbs defeated by Ottoman Turks of Sultan Murad I at the battle of Kosovo Polje; death of [[Lazar of Serbia|Lazar]], prince of Serbia.
*1390 Ottomans take [[w:Alaşehir|Philadelphia]], last significant Byzantine enclave in Anatolia.
*1391-98 Ottoman Turks unsuccessfully besiege Constantinople for the first time.
*1410 Iconographer [[Andrei Rublev]] paints his most famous icon depicting the three angels who appeared to Abraham and Sarah, the angels being considered a type of the [[Holy Trinity|Holy Trinity]].
*1414-18 Council of Constance in Roman Catholic Church represents high point for [[w:Conciliarism|Conciliar Movement]] over authority of pope.
*1417 End of Western Great Schism at the [[Council of Constance]].
*1418 Latin monk [[w:Thomas à Kempis|Thomas à Kempis]] authors ''[[w:The Imitation of Christ (book)|The Imitation of Christ]]''.
*1422 [[w:Siege of Constantinople (1422)|Second unsuccessful Ottoman siege]] of Constantinople.
*1423-24 [[w:Council of Siena|Council of Siena]] in the Roman Catholic Church was the high point of [[w:Conciliarism|conciliarism]], emphasizing the leadership of the bishops gathered in council, but the conciliarism expressed there was later branded as a heresy.
*1439 Ecclesiastical reunion with West attempted at [[Council of Florence]], where only [[Mark of Ephesus]] refuses to capitulate to demands of delegates from Rome.
*1440-41 Encyclical Letter of [[Mark of Ephesus]].
*1444 ''[[Donation of Constantine]]'' proved forgery.
*1448 [[Church of Russia]] unilaterally declares its independence from the [[Church of Constantinople]].
*1452 Unification of Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox Churches in [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]] on West's terms, when Emperor [[Constantine XI Palaiologos]], under pressure from Rome, allows the union to be proclaimed.
*1453 [[Fall of Constantinople|Constantinople falls]] to invasion of the Ottoman Turks, ending Roman Empire; [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]] turned into a mosque; martyrdom of [[Constantine XI Palaiologos]], last of the [[List of Byzantine Emperors|Byzantine Emperors]]; many Greek scholars escape to the West with books that become translated into Latin, triggering the [[w:Renaissance|Renaissance]].
[[Media:Example.ogg]]
==Post-Imperial era (1453-1821)==
:''Main article: [[Timeline of Church History (Post-Imperial Era (1453-1821))]]''
*1455 Gutenberg makes first printed [[Bible]].
*1455-56 ''Confession of Faith'' by Patr. Gennadius of Constantinople.
*1456-1587 Byzantine [[w:Pammakaristos Church|Church of Theotokos Pammakaristos]] became the seat of the [[Church of Constantinople|Ecumenical Patriarchate]].
*1492 Millennialist movements in Moscow, due to end of church calendar (year 7,000, according to the [[Byzantine Creation Era|Byzantine Date of Creation]]).
*1503 [[Church of Russia#Non-Possessors|Possessor and Non-Possessor controversy]].
*1516 Desiderius Erasmus publishes "[[w:Textus Receptus|Textus Receptus]]" of New Testament on the basis of six late manuscripts of the Byzantine text-type.
*1517 [[Maximus the Greek]] invited to Russia to translate Greek service books and correct Russian ones; Ottomans conquer Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria.
*1526 [[Non-Possessors]] attack Tsar Vassily III for divorcing his wife and are driven underground.
*1529 First Ottoman [[w:Siege of Vienna|Siege of Vienna]], marking Ottoman Empire's apex and end of Ottoman expansion in central Europe.
*1551 [[Council of the Hundred Chapters]] in Russia.
*1552 Death of [[Basil the Blessed]].
*1555 Abp. Gurian begins mission to Kazan.
*1568 Pope Pius V recognizes four Great [[w:Doctor of the Church|Doctors]] of the Eastern Church, [[John Chrysostom]], [[Basil the Great]], [[Gregory the Theologian|Gregory of Nazianzus]], and [[Athanasius of Alexandria|Athanasius]].
*1569 [[w:Union of Lublin|Union of Lublin]] unites Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania into a single state, the [[w:Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth|Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]], placing the [[w:Ruthenians|Ruthenian]] Orthodox lands of Belarus, and modern Ukraine under direct Roman Catholic rule.
*1571 Restoration of [[Church of Cyprus]] to Orthodox rule.
*1573-81 Correspondence of Patr. [[Jeremias II of Constantinople]] with Lutherans.
*1575 [[Church of Constantinople]] grants [[autonomy]] to [[Church of Sinai]].
*1582 Institution of the [[Gregorian Calendar]] by Pope Gregory XIII.
*1583 [[Sigillion of 1583]] issued against [[Gregorian Calendar]] by council convened in Constantinople.
*1587-Present. The relatively modest [[w:Church of St. George, Istanbul|Church of St George]] in the Phanar district of Istanbul becomes the seat of the [[Church of Constantinople|Ecumenical Patriarchate]].
*1589 [[Autocephaly]] and [[canonical territory]] of [[Church of Russia]] recognized, as Patr. Jeremias II of Constantinople raises Metr. Job of Moscow to the rank of [[Patriarch]] of Moscow and of All Russia.
*1596 [[Union of Brest-Litovsk]], several million Ukrainian and Byelorussian Orthodox Christians, living under Polish rule, leave the [[Church of Constantinople]] and recognize the Pope of Rome, without giving up their Byzantine liturgy and customs, creating the [[Uniate]] church.
*ca. 1600-1700 Conversion of Albania to Islam mainly through discriminatory tax system, the ''Djize''.
*1625 ''Confession of Faith'' by Metrophanes Kritopoulos written.
*1627 Pope [[Cyril Lukaris]] of Alexandria presents [[Codex Alexandrinus]] to King Charles I of England for safe keeping.
*1633 Ethiopian emperor [[w:Fasilides of Ethiopia|Fasilides]] expels Jesuits and other Roman Catholic missionaries from Ethiopia.
*1642 [[Council of Jassy]] (Iaşi) revises [[Peter Mogila]]'s confession to remove overtly Roman Catholic theology and confirms canonicity of certain [[Deuterocanon|deuterocanonical]] books.
*1646 [[w:Union of Uzhhorod|Union of Uzhhorod]] joins 63 Ruthenian Orthodox priests from the Carpathian Mountains to Roman Catholic Church on terms similar to [[Union of Brest]].
*1652-1658 Patriarch [[Nikon of Moscow]] revises liturgical books to bring them into conformity with the Greek liturgical customs, leading to mass excommunication and schism of dissenters, who become known as [[Old Believers]].
*1672 [[w:Synod of Jerusalem|Synod of Jerusalem]] convened by Patr. [[Dositheos II of Jerusalem|Dositheos Notaras]], refuting article by article the Calvinistic confession of [[Cyril Lucaris]], defining Orthodoxy relative to Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, and defining the Orthodox Biblical canon; acts of this council are later signed by all five patriarchates (including Russia).
*1682 The ''Sabaite [[Typikon]]'' was published in its final form in Russia; from 1682 to 1888 the Greek and Russian Churches shared a common [[Typikon]].
*1685 Orthodoxy introduced in Beijing by [[Church of Russia]].
*1698 Consecration of the first Orthodox [[Church of China|Church in China]], in the name of Sophia (Divine Wisdom), when Emperor Kangxi ordered a Buddhist temple to be cleared for Russian inhabitants in Beijing.
*1700 The ''[[Byzantine Creation Era|Creation Era]]'' calendar in Russia, in use since AD 988 was changed to the [[Julian Calendar]] by Peter the Great.
*1700-02 Submission of the dioceses of Lemberg (Lviv) and Luzk (Lutsk) in the [[w:Galicia (Central Europe)|Galician]] area of Ukraine to Roman Catholic Church completes [[Union of Brest-Litovsk]], so that two-thirds of the Orthodox in western Ukraine had become Greek Catholic.
*1715 Metr. [[Arsenios of Thebaid]] sent to England by Pope [[Samuel of Alexandria]] to negotiate with [[Non-Jurors|Non-Juror]] Anglican bishops.
*1716-25 Correspondence of Ecumenical Patriarch and Russian Czar with English Non-Jurors.
*1721 Czar [[Peter I of Russia]] replaces Russian patriarchate with a ruling [[holy synod]].
*1724 [[Melkite Greek Catholic Church|Melkite]] schism, in which many faithful from the [[Church of Antioch]] become [[Uniate]]s.
*1728 The [[Church of Constantinople|Ecumenical Patriarchate]] formally replaced the ''[[Byzantine Creation Era|Creation Era]]'' (AM) calendar with the ''[[w:Anno Domini|Christian Era]]'' (AD).
*1731 Death of [[Innocent of Irkutsk]].
*1754 Hesychast Renaissance begins with the [[Kollyvades Movement]].
*1755 Synod of Constantinople declares Roman Catholic baptism invalid and ordered baptism of converts from Roman Catholicism.
*1756 ''[[Sigillion of 1756]]'' issued against the [[Gregorian Calendar]] by Patr. [[Cyril V of Constantinople]].
*1767 Ottoman Empire legally divides [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Church of the Holy Sepulchre]] among claimants.
*1767-1815 [[w:Suppression of the Society of Jesus|Suppression of the Jesuits]] in Roman Catholic countries, subsequently finding refuge in Orthodox nations, particularly in Russia.
*1768 Jews are massacred during riots in Russia-occupied Poland.
*ca. 1770 About 1,200 Kiev region Uniate churches return to Orthodoxy under political pressure from Russia.
*1774 Russia and Ottoman Empire sign [[w:Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca|treaty of Kuchuk-Kainarji]], bringing Russia for the first time into the Mediterranean as the acknowledged protector of Orthodox Christians.
*1779 Death of [[Kosmas Aitolos]].
*1782 First publication of ''[[Philokalia]]''; [[autonomy]] of [[Church of Sinai]] confirmed by [[Church of Constantinople]].
*1793-95 Over 2,300 Uniate churches became Orthodox under Tsarina Catherine the Great.
*1794 Missionaries, including [[Herman of Alaska]], arrive at Kodiak Island, bringing Orthodoxy to Russian Alaska; death of [[Paisius Velichkovsky]] of Moldova and Mt. Athos.
*1796 [[Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain|Nicodemus the Hagiorite]] publishes ''[[Unseen Warfare]]'' in Venice.
*1798 Patriarch [[Anthimios of Jerusalem]] contended that the [[w:Ottoman Empire|Ottoman Empire]] was part of the [[w:Divine Providence|Divine Dispensation]] granted by [[God]] to protect [[Orthodoxy]] from the taint of [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholicism]] and of Western [[w:Secularism|secularism]] and [[w:Irreligion by country|irreligion]].
*1800 ''[[The Rudder]]'' published and printed in Athens.
*1805 Death of [[Makarios of Corinth]], a central figure in the Kollyvades movement.
*1811 [[Autocephaly]] of the [[Church of Georgia]] revoked by the Russian imperial state after Georgia's annexation, making it subject to the [[Church of Russia]].
*1819 Council at Constantinople endorses views of Kollyvades fathers.

==Modern era (1821-1917)==
:''Main article: [[Timeline of Church History (Modern Era (1821-1917))]]''
*1821 Metr. [[Germanos of Patra]] declares Greek independence on Day of [[Annunciation]] ([[March 25]]), also [[Kyriopascha]]; martyrdom of Patr. [[Gregory V of Constantinople]], Abp. [[Kyprianos of Cyprus]], and Abp. [[Gerasimos of Crete]] in retaliation.
*ca. 1830 [[Slavophile movement]] begins in Russia.
*1831 Return of 3,000,000 [[Uniate]]s with the [[Orthodox Church]] at Vilnius in 1831.
*1832 [[Church of Serbia]] becomes ''de facto'' [[autocephaly|autocephalous]].
*1833 [[Church of Greece]] declares [[autocephaly]], making it independent of the [[Church of Constantinople|Constantinople]]; death of [[Seraphim of Sarov]].
*1839 Synod of Polotsk abolishes [[Union of Brest-Litovsk]] in all areas under Russian rule as Greek Catholic dioceses in Lithuania and Belarus re-enter the Orthodox Church.
*1848 ''[[Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs]]'' sent by the primates and synods of the four ancient patriarchates of the Orthodox Church, condemning the [[Filioque]] as [[heresy]], declaring the [[Roman Catholic Church]] to be [[heresy|heretical]], [[schism]]atic, and in [[apostasy]], repudiating [[Ultramontanism]] and referring to the Photian Council of 879-880 as the "[[Eighth Ecumenical Council]]."
*1850 [[Church of Constantinople]] recognizes [[autocephaly]] of [[Church of Greece]].
*1851 Translation into English of [[Septuagint]] by Lancelot C. L. Brenton; Ottoman Empire recognizes France as supreme Christian authority in Holy Land and grants it possession of the [[Church of the Nativity (Bethlehem)|Church of the Nativity]].
*1852 Ottoman Empire makes division of [[Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)|Church of the Holy Sepulchre]] permanent.
*1853-56 [[w:Crimean War|Crimean War]] fought between Russia and the Ottoman Empire together with Britain and France, beginning over which church would be recognized as the "sovereign authority" of the Christian faith in the Holy Land.
*1854 [[Immaculate Conception]] declared [[dogma]] by [[Roman Catholic Church]].
*1859 [[w:Constantin von Tischendorf|Constantin von Tischendorf]] discovers [[w:Codex Sinaiticus|Codex Sinaiticus]] at [[St. Catherine's Monastery (Sinai)|St. Catherine's Monastery]].
*1860 Death of [[Alexei Khomiakov]], co-founder of the [[Slavophile movement]].
*1864 First Orthodox [[parish]] established on American soil in New Orleans, Louisiana, by Greeks; death of [[Jacob Netsvetov]].
*1865 [[Church of Romania]] declares its [[autocephaly|independence]] from the [[Church of Constantinople]].
*1869 Russian synod authorizes corrected text of [[Western Rite]] liturgy and Benedictine offices.
*1870 [[Papal Infallibility]] declared [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] dogma necessary for salvation by First Vatican Council.
*1871 [[Nicholas of Japan|Nikolai Kasatkin]] establishes Orthodox mission in Japan.
*1872 Council in Jerusalem declares [[phyletism]] to be [[heresy]]; [[Church of Bulgaria]] gains ''de facto'' [[autocephaly]] by a decree of the Sultan.
*1875 Uniate diocese of [[w:Chełm|Chelm]] in Poland incorporated into Russian Orthodox Church under Alexander II, with all of the local Uniates converted to Orthodoxy.
*1876 [[Theophan the Recluse]] begins issuing a translation of the ''[[Philokalia]]'' in Russian.
*1879 [[Church of Constantinople]] recognizes [[autocephaly]] of [[Church of Serbia]]; death of [[Innocent of Alaska]].
*1882 Synod of Constantinople gives conditional approval to use of Roman liturgy and Benedictine offices.
*1885 [[Church of Constantinople]] recognizes [[autocephaly]] of [[Church of Romania]]; [[w:Revised Version|English Revised Version]] published; [[Archbishop of Canterbury]] officially removes all of [[Apocrypha]] from [[w:Authorized King James Version|King James Bible]].
*1888 ''[[Typikon]] of the Great Church of Christ'' is published with revised church services, prepared by Protopsaltis George Violakis, issued with the approval and blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch, while the ''Sabaite (monastic) [[Typikon]]'' continues to be used in Russia.
*1889 Federation of [[w:Old Catholic Church|Old Catholic Churches]], not in communion with Rome, at the [[w:Utrecht Union|Union of Utrecht]].
*ca. 1890 ''[[Unseen Warfare]]'' further revised by [[Theophan the Recluse]].
*1891 Death of [[Ambrose of Optina]].
*1895 Reply of Synod of Constantinople to Pope Leo XIII.
*1898 Last ethnically Greek patriarch of [[Church of Antioch|Antioch]] deposed; [[Western Rite]] diocese organized in Czechoslovakia by [[Church of Russia]].
*1899 Restoration of Arabs to the [[Church of Antioch|Patriarchal throne of Antioch]].
*1900 [[Martyrs of China|Martyrdom of Orthodox Christians]] in Chinese Boxer Rebellion (Yihetuan Movement).
*1901 [[Evangelakia Events (Athens, 1901)|"Evangelakia" riots]] in Athens Greece in November, over translations of [[New Testament]] into [[w:Dimotiki|Demotic (Modern) Greek]], resulting in fall of both government and Metropolitan of Athens.
*1904 [[Church of Constantinople|Ecumenical Patriarchate]] publishes the [http://kainh.homestead.com/files/noteptxt.pdf "Patriarchal" Text of the Greek New Testament], based on about twenty Byzantine manuscripts; petition to Russian synod by Abp. [[Tikhon of Moscow|Tikhon (Belavin)]], Bp. [[Raphael of Brooklyn|Raphael (Hawaweeny)]], and Fr. [[John Kochurov]] to permit adaption of services taken from Anglican Book of Common Prayer for use by Orthodox people.
*1905 Death of [[Apostolos Makrakis]]; Tsar [[Nicholas II of Russia|Nicholas Romanov's]] decree on freedom of religion results in about 250,000 [[w:Ruthenians|Ruthenians]] returning to [[Eastern Catholic Churches|Uniatism]]; seat of Russian Orthodox bishop in America moved from San Francisco to New York, as immigration from Eastern Europe and the reception of ex-[[Uniate]]s shifts the balance of Orthodox population to eastern North America.
*1907 Archim. [[Eusebius Matthopoulos]] founds [[Brotherhood of Theologians Zoe|Zoe Brotherhood]]; Commission on Anglican and Old Catholic Affairs of Russian synod reports in favor of adaptation of services from Book of Common Prayer and sets out criteria.
*1908 Fr. Nikodemos Sarikas sent to Johannesburg, Transvaal, by Ecumenical Patriarchate as first Orthodox priest there, leaving after a short time for German East Africa (later Tanzania) because of the opposition of Johannesburg Greeks to mission among Africans.
*1908 Death of [[John of Kronstadt]].
*1912 Death of [[Nicholas of Japan]].
==Communist era (1917-1991)==
: ''Main article: [[Timeline of Church History (Communist Era (1917-1991))]]''
*1917 [[w:Bolshevik Revolution|Bolshevik Revolution]] throws [[Church of Russia]] into chaos, effectively stranding the fledgling Russian Orthodox mission in America; restoration of Moscow Patriarchate with [[Tikhon of Moscow|Tikhon]] as patriarch; [[Church of Georgia]]'s [[autocephaly]] restored ''de facto'' by political chaos in Russia.
*1917-40 [[w:Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union|Persecution of the Orthodox Church in Russia]] begins, with 130,000 priests arrested, 95,000 of whom were executed by firing squad.
*1918 Tsar [[Nicholas II of Russia]] murdered together with his wife [[Alexandra Romanov|Alexandra]] and children.
*1919-1922 [[w:Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922)|Greco-Turkish War]]; a million refugees flee to Greece joining half a million Greeks who had fled earlier; [[w:Pontic Greek Genocide|Pontic Greek Genocide]] eliminates the Christian population of Trebizond.
*1920 Death of [[Nektarios of Aegina]]; publication of Encyclical Letters by Constantinople on Christian unity and on the Ecumenical Movement.
*1921 [[Church of Constantinople|Constantinople]] renounces all claims to jurisdiction in any part of Africa, with Alexandrian primate thenceforth known as ''Pope and Patriarch of [[Church of Alexandria|Alexandria and All Africa]]''; [[Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America|Greek Archdiocese of America]] formed ; Abp. [[Tikhon of Moscow|Tikhon (Belavin)]] elected Patriarch of Moscow; [[Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague|Gorazd (Pavlik)]] consecrated as bishop for Western Rite Diocese of Moravia and Silesia; an all-Ukrainian Synod is called in Kyiv and the [[Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church]] (UAOC) (as yet unrecognized) is declared independent from the Moscow Patriarchate (MP).
*1922 [[Church of Albania]] declares [[autocephaly]] from [[Church of Constantinople|Constantinople]]; formation of the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]]; [[Solovetsky Monastery]] converted by Lenin's decree to the [[w:Solovki|"Solovki Special Purpose Camp"]], one of the earliest forced-labor camps of the Gulag where 75 bishops died, along with tens of thousands of laity; the predominatly Christian city of [[w:Great Fire of Smyrna|Smyrna is destroyed]], ending 1900 years of Christian civilization.
*1923 [[Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia]] granted [[autonomy]] by [[Church of Constantinople]]; [[w:Treaty of Lausanne|Treaty of Lausanne]] affirmed the international status of the [[Church of Constantinople|Ecumenical Patriarchate]], with Turkey guaranteeing respect and the Patriarchate’s full protection.
*1924 [[Church of Constantinople]] recognizes [[autocephaly]] of [[Church of Poland]].
*1925 [[Church of Romania]] becomes a [[patriarchate]]; first Africans in sub-Saharan Africa baptized in Tanganyika by Fr. Nikodemos Sarikas; death of [[Tikhon of Moscow]].
*1926 Polish Catholic National Church received as a [[Western Rite]] diocese in Poland of [[Church of Russia]] under Bp. Alexis of Grodno; [[John Maximovitch]] tonsured by [[ROCOR]] Metr. [[Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of Kiev]].
*1927 Bishops of Russian church in America authorize formation of [[American Orthodox Catholic Church]], including a [[Western Rite]] missionary outreach.
*1929 Kingdom of Italy and Papacy ratify [[w:Lateran Treaty|Lateran Treaty]], recognizing sovereignty of Papacy within the new state of the [[w:Vatican City|Vatican City]].
*1931 Reception of [[Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe]] into the [[Ecumenical Patriarchate]], led by Metr. [[Eulogius (Georgievsky) of Paris]].
*1932 Daniel William Alexander travels to Uganda to meet Reuben Spartas, establishing African Orthodox Church there.
*1933 [[Church of Greece]] bans [[Freemasonry]].
*1934 Daniel William Alexander travels to Kenya, establishing African Orthodox Church led by Arthur Gathuna; episcopal consecration of [[John Maximovitch]].
*1935 Critical edition of [[Septuagint]] published in Gottingen Germany by Alfred Rahlfs at the Septuaginta-Unternehmens (Institute); [[Old Calendarists|Old Calendar]] schism when three bishops declared their separation from the official [[Church of Greece]] stating that the calendar change was a schismatic act.
*1935-40 Italian forces occupy Ethiopia and begin intermittent persecutions of the [[Church of Ethiopia|Ethiopian Orthodox Church]].
*1936 Ukase of Moscow Patriarchate establishes Western Orthodox Church in France using [[Western Rite]].
*1936-37 Many Russian Orthodox Clerics die in Joseph Stalin's [[w:Great Purge|Great Purge]].
*1937 [[Church of Constantinople]] recognizes [[autocephaly]] of [[Church of Albania]].
*1938 Death of [[Silouan the Athonite]]; [[American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese]] founded, when a group of 37 Carpatho-Russian Eastern Catholic parishes, under the leadership of Fr. [[Orestes (Chornock) of Agathonikeia|Orestes Chornock]], were received into the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
*1941 Martyrdom of [[Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague]] by Nazis.
*1941-45 Croatian [[w:Ustaše|Ustasa]] terrorists kill 500,000 Orthodox Serbs, expel 250,000 and force 250,000 to convert to [[Roman Catholic Church|Catholicism]].
*1943 [[Church of Russia]] recognizes [[autocephaly]] of [[Church of Georgia]]; first constitution of the African Orthodox Church in East Africa signed by Reuben Spartas and Arthur Gathuna; Joseph Stalin meets with hierarchs of Russian Orthodox Church to establish a "patriotic union," granting concessions to the church, including the gathering of the holy synod and the election of [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow|Sergius I]] as patriarch of Moscow.
*1943-44 Hundreds of Orthodox priests of the [[Church of Ukraine|Ukrainian Orthodox Church]] eliminated, tortured and drowned by Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists - [[w:Ukrainian Insurgent Army|Ukrainian Rebel Army]], aided by [[Eastern Catholic Churches|Uniate]] Metr. Josyf Slipyj who was a spiritual leader of Nazi military units that were later condemned by the Nuremberg tribunal, and who was imprisoned by Soviet authorities for aiding the UPA.
*1944 Fr. [[Jean-Nectaire (Kovalevsky) of Saint-Denis|Evgraph (Kovalevsky)]] completes restoration of [[Liturgy of St. Germaine de Paris]].
*1945 [[Church of Bulgaria]]'s [[autocephaly]] generally recognized; library of early Christian texts discovered at Nag Hammadi in Egypt; Soviet Union annexes Czechoslovakia; [[Church of Russia]] claims jurisdiction over the [[Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia]].
*1945-90 Persecution of the [[Church of Albania|Orthodox Church in Albania]].
*1946 Reuben Spartas of the African Orthodox Church visits Alexandria; Holy Synod of the [[Church of Alexandria]] officially recognizes and accepts the African Greek Orthodox Church in Kenya and Uganda; state-sponsored synod is held at Lviv, Ukraine in March, which officially dissolves the [[Union of Brest-Litovsk]] and integrates the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church into the Russian Orthodox Church, Soviet authorities arresting resisters or deporting them to Siberia.
*1947 Death of [[Alexis (Kabaliuk) of Carpathia|Alexei Kabalyiuk]], who played a major role in reviving Orthodoxy in [[w:Zakarpattia Oblast|Transcarpathia]] in the early 20th century.
*1948 [[Church of Russia]] re-grants [[autocephaly]] to the [[Church of Poland]] (after having revoked it in the aftermath of World War II); [[w:World Council of Churches|World Council of Churches]] is founded; Council of Moscow is held on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of the independence of the [[Church of Russia|Russian Church]] from [[Church of Constantinople|Constantinople]], with representatives of the local Orthodox Churches rejecting all participation in the World Council of Churches.
*1949 Soviet authorities revoke the [[w:Union of Uzhhorod|Union of Uzhhorod]] of 1646, creating the Orthodox Eparchy of Mukachiv-Uzhhorod, under the Patriarch of Moscow.
*1950 [[w:Pope Pius XII|Pope Pius XII]] proclaims the [[w:Bodily Assumption|Bodily Assumption]] of the Virgin Mary as a dogma.
*1951 [[Church of Russia]] grants [[autocephaly]] to the [[Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia]]; 1500th anniversary celebration of the [[Church of Jerusalem|Patriarchate of Jerusalem]].
*1953 Metr. [[Antony (Bashir) of New York|Antony (Bashir)]] accepts three [[Western Rite]] parishes into Syrian Metropolitanate in America.
*1957 [[Church of Russia]] grants [[autonomy]] to [[Church of China]].
*1958 Patriarch of Antioch adopts provisions of Russian synods of 1879 and 1907 for use by [[Western Rite]] in America; Western Orthodox Church of France comes under Abp. [[John Maximovitch]], who authorizes the use of the restored Gallican rite.
*1959 Abp. [[Anastasios (Yannoulatos) of Albania]] establishes inter-Orthodox mission agency ''Porefthentes'' to revive the church's mission activities; autocephaly granted to the [[Church of Ethiopia]] by Coptic Pope [[Cyril VI (Atta) of Alexandria]].
*1961 Creation of [[Western Rite Vicariate]] in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]]; death of [[Luke (Voino-Yasenetsky) of Simferopol and Crimea]]; consecration of first Orthodox Church in Uganda; first Pan-Orthodox Conference in Rhodes.
*1962-1965 Second Vatican Council held in Rome, initiating major liturgical and theological reforms for the [[Roman Catholic Church]], including restriction of ancient [[Tridentine Mass]] and introduction of the Novus Ordo.
*1963 Second Pan-Orthodox Conference in Rhodes; 1000th anniversary celebration of founding of [[Mount Athos]].
*1964 Meeting of Pope [[Paul VI of Rome]] and Patr. [[Athenagoras I (Spyrou) of Constantinople]] in Jerusalem; third Pan-Orthodox Conference in Rhodes; [[Synaxis of the Saints of Rostov]] established by resolution of His Holiness Patriarch [[Alexei I (Simansky) of Moscow|Alexis I]] and the Holy Synod of the [[Church of Russia|Russian Orthodox Church]].
*1965 Pope Paul VI of Rome and Patriarch [[Athenagoras I (Spyrou) of Constantinople]] mutually nullify the [[excommunication]]s of 1054.
*1966 The [[w:Cultural Revolution|Cultural Revolution]] almost totally destroyed the young [[Church of China|Chinese Orthodox Church]].
*1967 [[Macedonian Orthodox Church |Church of Macedonia]] unilaterally declares its [[autocephaly]], making it independent of the [[Church of Serbia]] (as yet unrecognized); Albania is declared an atheist state, closing all religious institutions and forbiding any religious practices.
*1968 Visit to [[Patriarchate of Alexandria]] by Vatican representatives; fourth Pan-Orthodox Conference in Chambesy, Switzerland.
*1970 [[Orthodox Church in America|Russian-American Metropolia]] reconciles with [[Church of Russia]] and is granted [[autocephaly]], renamed as the Orthodox Church in America, returning control of [[Church of Japan]] to Moscow, which grants it [[autonomy]]; Abp. [[Makarios III (Mouskos) of Cyprus]] baptizes 10,000 into the Orthodox Church in Kenya.
*1971 [[Theological School of Halki|Halki Seminary]] closed by Turkish authorities.
*1975 Division in the Antiochian church in North America overcome by the uniting of the two Antiochian archdioceses into one by Metr. [[Philip (Saliba) of New York]] and Abp. [[Michael (Shaheen) of Toledo]]; Joint Commission of Orthodox and Old Catholic theologians is established.
*1976 First Pre-Synodal Pan-Orthodox Conference at Orthodox Centre of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Chambesy, Switzerland.
*1979 Pope [[John Paul II]] visits Ecumenical Patriarchate.
*1979 Joint Commission of Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches for Theological Dialogue established by Pope [[John Paul II]] and Patr. [[Demetrius I (Papadopoulos) of Constantinople]].
*1981 Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission meets for the first time in Espoo, Finland.
*1982 Orthodox-Roman Catholic Joint Commission publishes in Munich first official common document, ''"The Mystery of the Church and of the Eucharist in Light of the Mystery of the Holy Trinity"''; second Pre-Synodal Pan-Orthodox Conference in Chambesy, Switzerland.
*1985 Founding of [[Orthodox Christian Mission Center]] (OCMC) as Greek Archdiocesan Mission Center; Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission issues statement ''"Divine Revelation."''
*1986 Third Pre-Synodal Pan-Orthodox Conference in Chambesy, Switzerland.
*1987 Orthodox-Roman Catholic Joint Commission issues common document ''"Faith, Sacraments and the Unity of the Church"''; visit by Patr. [[Demetrius I (Papadopoulos) of Constantinople]] to Vatican.
*1987 Group of twenty parishes of the [[Evangelical Orthodox Church]], originally formed by former Campus Crusade for Christ leaders [[Peter Gillquist]] and [[Jon Braun]], are received into [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America|Antiochian Archdiocese]] in US, becoming the Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Mission; Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission issues the statement ''"Scripture and Tradition."''
*1988 1000th anniversary of Orthodoxy in Russia; Orthodox-Roman Catholic Joint Commission publishes common document ''"The Sacrament of Order in the Sacramental Structure of the Church"''; Indonesian Muslim convert to Orthodoxy Fr. [[Daniel (Bambang Dwi) Byantoro|Daniel Byantoro]] begins his mission in Indonesia, sparking the rebirth of Orthodoxy there.
*1989 [[Church of Constantinople]] recognizes [[autocephaly]] of the [[Church of Georgia]]; [[Ephraim of Philotheou|Elder Ephraim]] begins founding [[Mount Athos|Athonite]]-style monasteries in North America; Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission issues statement ''"The Canon and the Inspiration of the Holy Scripture"''; glorification in Russia of [[Tikhon of Moscow]]; Uniate Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church legalized, with Greek Catholics beginning seizure of property from Russian Orthodox Church, which they claimed as theirs prior to the synod of 1946.
*1990 [[Church of Ukraine (Kiev Patriarchate)|Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kiev Patriarchate]] (UOC-KP) self-proclaims its independance from the [[Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church|UAOC]] (both groups unrecognized).

==Post-Communist era (1991-Present)==
:''Main article: [[Timeline of Church History (Post-Communist Era (1991-Present))]]''
*1991 Representatives of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches meet in Chambesy, Switzerland, discussing relations with World Council of Churches.
*1992 Synaxis of primates of Orthodox churches in Constantinople.
*1993 Orthodox-Roman Catholic Joint Theological Commission meets in Balamand, Lebanon, issuing common document ''"Uniatism: Method of Union of the Past, and Present. Search for Full Communion"'' (the "[[Balamand document]]"); Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission issues statement ''"The Ecumenical Councils."''
*1993 [[Church of Cyprus]] condemns [[Freemasonry]]; ''[[Orthodox Study Bible|Orthodox Study Bible: New Testament and Psalms]]'' published; [[Church of Eritrea|Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church]] becomes autocephalous.
*1994 [[Ligonier Meeting]] in Western Pennsylvania at [[Antiochian Village]] held by the majority of Orthodox hierarchs in North America votes to do away with the notion of Orthodox Christians in America being a "[[diaspora]]".
*1995 Patr. [[Bartholomew I (Archontonis) of Constantinople|Bartholomew I]] visits Vatican; Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission issues statement ''"Understanding of Salvation in the Light of the Ecumenical Councils"''; Pope John Paul II issues encyclical ''[http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html Orientale Lumen]'', encouraging reunion between East and West.
*1996 Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America reorganized by the [[Church of Constantinople|Ecumenical Patriarchate]], dividing the administration of the two continents into four parts.
*1997 Russian [[w:Law on Freedom of Conscience and Religious Associations|Law on Freedom of Conscience and Religious Associations]] declares [[Orthodox Church|Orthodox Christianity]] as Russia's predominant religion.
*1998 [[Church of Constantinople]], not recognizing Russia's right to issue a [[tomos]] of [[autocephaly]] in 1951, issues its own tomos for the [[Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia]]; [http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/thessaloniki_roc.aspx Thessaloniki Summit] held to discuss Orthodox participation in [[w:World Council of Churches|WCC]]; Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission issues statement ''"Salvation: Grace, Justification and Synergy."''
*1999 Numerous Serbian Orthodox sites in Kosovo and Metohia destroyed and desecrated during NATO peacekeeping presence.
*2000 Orthodox-Roman Catholic Joint Theological Commission meets in Baltimore, discusses text on ''"The Ecclesiological and Canonical Implications of Uniatism,"'' but is suspended; Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission issues statement ''"Word and Sacraments (Mysteria) in the Life of the Church"''.
*2001 Pope John Paul II of Rome [[Fourth Crusade#Papal Apology to Orthodox Church|apologizes to Orthodox Church]] for Fourth Crusade; [[Church of Alexandria|Chalcedonian]] and [[Church of Alexandria (Coptic)|Non-Chalcedonian]] Patriarchates of Alexandria agree to mutually recognize baptisms and marriages performed in each other's churches.
*2002 Patr. [[Bartholomew I (Archontonis) of Constantinople]] and Pope [[John Paul II]] co-sign Venice Declaration of Environmental Ethics; Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission issues statement ''"Mysteria/Sacraments as Means of Salvation."''
*2003 Orthodox Churches in Europe commemorated the 550th anniversary of the fall of Constantinople in May; [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]] granted "self-rule" (similar but not identical to [[autonomy]]) by [[Church of Antioch]]; Coptic priest Fr. [[Zakaria Botros]] begins his television and internet mission to Muslims in North Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia, and western countries, resulting in thousands of conversions.
*2004 Pope [[John Paul II]] returns [[relics]] of [[John Chrysostom]] and [[Gregory the Theologian]] to [[Church of Constantinople]]; Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission statement ''"Baptism and Chrismation as Sacraments of Initiation into the Church."''
*2006 Pope [[Benedict XVI]] visits Ecumenical Patriarchate, drawing criticism from [[Mount Athos]]; Abp. [[Christodoulos (Paraskevaides) of Athens]] visits Vatican; Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission issues statement ''"The Holy Eucharist in the Life of the Church."''
*2007 Restoration of [[full communion]] between [[Moscow Patriarchate]] and [[ROCOR]]; synod of over 50 bishops of the [[Church of Ukraine]] announce that the UOC-MP is ''"an autonomous, historical part of the Russian Orthodox Church"''; Orthodox-Roman Catholic Joint Commission meets in Ravenna, Italy, 10th plenary, led by co-presidents [[w:Walter Kasper|Cardinal Walter Kasper]] and Metr. [[John (Zizioulas) of Pergamon]], agreeing upon a joint document consisting of 46 articles providing an ecclesiastical road map in discussing union; Russian delegation walks out of Ravenna talks in protest of presence of Estonian delegation ([[Church of Constantinople|EP]]).
*2008 ''[[Orthodox Study Bible]] (with [[Septuagint]]'') published; [http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=995&tla=en Pan-Orthodox meeting in Constantinople] in October of the Primates of the fourteen Orthodox Churches, signing a document calling for inter-orthodox unity and collaboration and "''the continuation of preparations for the Holy and Great Council''".

{{Template:Timeline of Church History}}

==Notes==
*Some of these dates are necessarily a bit vague, as records for some periods are particularly difficult to piece together accurately.
*The division of Church History into separate eras as done here will always be to some extent arbitrary, though it was attempted to group periods according to major watershed events.
*This timeline is necessarily biased toward the history of the [[Orthodox Church]], though a number of non-Orthodox or purely political events are mentioned for their importance in history related to Orthodoxy or for reference.

==See also==
*[[Timeline of Orthodoxy in America]]
*[[Timeline of Orthodoxy in Australia]]
*[[Timeline of Orthodoxy in Greece]]
*[[Timeline of Orthodoxy in New Zealand]]
*[[Timeline of Orthodoxy in Japan]]
*[[Timeline of Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic relations]]

==Published works==

The following are published writings that provide an overview of Church history:

'''From an Orthodox perspective'''
* Angold, Michael (Ed.). ''[http://books.google.ca/books?id=1xUV-nMxNGsC&printsec=frontcover Eastern Christianity]''. The Cambridge History of Christianity. Cambridge University Press, 2006. 722 pp. ISBN 9780521811132
* Maloney, George A. (S.J.). ''A History of Orthodox Theology Since 1453''. Norland Publishing, Massachusetts, 1976.
* [[Alexander Schmemann|Schmemann, Alexander]]. ''The Historical Road of Eastern Orthodoxy''.
* Tsai, Kathryn (Dr.). ''A Timeline of Eastern Church History.'' [[St. John of San Francisco Monastery (Manton, California)|Divine Ascent Press]], CA, 2004. ISBN 0971413924
* [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia|Ware, Timothy]]. ''The Orthodox Church: New Edition''. (ISBN 0140146563)
 
* Meyendorff, John. ''Imperial Unity and Christian Divisions: The Church, 450-680 AD''. '''The Church in History Vol. II'''. Crestwood, N.Y. : St. Vladimirs Seminary Press, 1989. ISBN 9780881410563
* Louth, Rev. Dr. Andrew. ''[http://books.google.ca/books?id=WlpPjOlVzQwC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0 Greek East and Latin West : The Church, AD 681-1071]''. '''The Church in History Vol. III'''. Crestwood, N.Y. : St. Vladimirs Seminary Press, 2007. ISBN 9780881413205
* Papadakis, Aristeides (with John Meyendorff). ''The Christian East and the Rise of the Papacy: The Church 1071-1453 A.D.'' '''The Church in History Vol. IV'''. Crestwood, N.Y. : St. Vladimirs Seminary Press, 1994. ISBN 9780881410587

'''From a [[Heterodox]] perspective'''

* Boer, Harry R. ''A Short History of the Early Church''. (ISBN 0802813399)
* Cairns, Earle E. ''Christianity Through the Centuries: A History of the Christian Church''. (ISBN 0310208122)
* Chadwick, Henry. ''The Early Church''. (ISBN 0140231994)
* Collins, Michael, ed.; Price, Matthew Arlen. ''Story of Christianity: A Celebration of 2000 Years of Faith''. (ISBN 0789446057)
* Eusebius Pamphilus; Cruse, C.F. (translator). ''Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History''. (ISBN 1565633717)
* Gonzalez, Justo L. ''A History of Christian Thought, Volume 1: From the Beginnings to the Council of Chalcedon''. (ISBN 0687171822)
* Gonzalez, Justo L. ''A History of Christian Thought, Volume 2: From Augustine to the Eve of the Reformation''. (ISBN 0687171830)
* Gonzalez, Justo L. ''A History of Christian Thought, Volume 3: From the Protestant Reformation to the Twentieth Century''. (ISBN 0687171849)
* Gonzalez, Justo L. ''The Story of Christianity, Volume 1: The Early Church to the Reformation''. (ISBN 0060633158)
* Gonzalez, Justo L. ''The Story of Christianity, Volume 2: Reformation to the Present Day''. (ISBN 0060633166)
* Hall, Stuart G. ''Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church''. (ISBN 0802806295)
* Hastings, Adrian, ed. ''A World History of Christianity''. (ISBN 0802848753)
* Hussey, J. M. ''The Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire: Oxford History of the Christian Church''. (ISBN 0198264569)
* Jones, Timothy P. ''Christian History Made Easy''. (ISBN 1890947105)
* Noll, Mark A. ''Turning Points: Decisive Moments in the History of Christianity''. (ISBN 080106211X)
* [[Jaroslav Pelikan|Pelikan, Jaroslav]]. ''The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, Volume 1: The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600)''. (ISBN 0226653714)
* Pelikan, Jaroslav. ''The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, Volume 2: The Spirit of Eastern Christendom (600-1700)''. (ISBN 0226653730)
* Pelikan, Jaroslav. ''The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, Volume 3: The Growth of Medieval Theology (600-1300)''. (ISBN 0226653749)
* Pelikan, Jaroslav. ''The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, Volume 4: Reformation of Church and Dogma (1300-1700)''. (ISBN 0226653773)
* Pelikan, Jaroslav. ''The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, Volume 5: Christian Doctrine and Modern Culture (since 1700)''. (ISBN 0226653803)
* Schaff, Philip. ''History of the Christian Church''. (ISBN 156563196X)
* Wace, Henry; Piercy, William C., ed. ''A Dictionary of Christian Biography: Literature to the End of the Sixth Century A.D. With an Account of the Principal Sects and Heresies''. (ISBN 1565630572)
* Walton, Robert C. ''Chronological and Background Charts of Church History''. (ISBN 0310362814)

==External links==
*[http://saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.html A Timeline of Church History] provided by [http://saintignatiuschurch.org/ St. Ignatius of Antioch Orthodox Christian Church]

*History of Orthodox Christianity ''(QuickTime movies)''
** [http://realserver.goarch.org/en/gotelecom/history_pt1-DSL.mov Part 1: Beginnings]
** [http://realserver.goarch.org/en/gotelecom/history_pt2-DSL.mov Part 2: Byzantium]
** [http://realserver.goarch.org/en/gotelecom/history_pt3-DSL.mov Part 3: A Hidden Treasure]

*[http://www.archons.org/patriarchate/ Timeline of Patriarchal History]. Order of St. Andrew the Apostle. Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. ''(Pop-up Video Presentation, in Sections)''

[[Category:Church History]]
[[Category:Featured Articles]]
[[Category:Timelines|Church History]]

[[ar:ملخص تاريخ الكنيسة]]
[[bg:Времева линия на църковната история]]
[[el:Ιστορικό χρονολόγιο της Εκκλησίας]]
[[ro:Istoria Bisericii Ortodoxe (cronologie)]]

Timeline of Church History

2009-02-21T06:43:30Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Post-Roman Schism */

Timeline of Church History

2009-02-21T06:42:14Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Ante-Nicene era (100-325) */

Timeline of Church History

2009-02-21T06:40:25Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Apostolic era (33-100) */

Timeline of Church History

2009-02-21T06:39:51Z

JosephSuaiden: restoring page? part 1

User talk:Pistevo

2009-02-18T22:21:44Z

JosephSuaiden:

* [[User_talk:Pistevo/Archive_05|Archive 2005]]
* [[User_talk:Pistevo/Archive_06|Archive 2006]]

== Accept Revised? ==

Dear Pistevo,

There's been a request to use some of your edited content on Wikipedia. Would you mind putting the [[Template:Acceptrevised|Acceptrevised]] template on your user page to clarify the copyright (you can add it like this: <nowiki>{{acceptrevised}}</nowiki>? That would be very helpful! Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 08:53, April 25, 2007 (PDT)

== Monastery of Pantanassa, Australia ==
Hi Pistevo, I thought I might send you a little note to let you know that I have grown up with two of the monks at this monastery (before they were monks). As such, one of the monk's sister is my close friend and she has a million to one photos of this monastery. I have asked her if she would email me some so that we can upload them onto this site. Since you have been looking after all the Australian related pages i thought I might let you know so that you can upload pictures and format them yourself. Do you have an email? I dont know how to give you my email in a private way so you can contact me ...any ideas? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:30, January 20, 2008 (PST)

PS. I also visit the monastery of Panaghia Gorgoipikoos in Geelong on a monthly basis and am also very close to the abbess. Is there any information you would like me to get from there that you think would be a good idea for this site. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:33, January 20, 2008 (PST)

==List of Parishes in Victoria article==
Hi Pistevo, in the Sandbox ...its in a previous version ... I have a list of the Parishes in Victoria sorted (with only a few left to go) ... Do you think that this format works? If the answer is yes, how do I go about changing the original article? Do i need to get a adminstrators vote or do I need to simply speak with the originator of the article (you) in this instance? In any case, could you take a look and tell me what you think before I sort of go about 'rapping up' that loose end ... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:36, March 20, 2008 (PDT)
:AusGreek net ... I just wanted to point out that it had many links that you might have wanted to incorporate into the articles ... As for the parishes list ... I am definately aware of the fact that there are various outside of Melbourne as such ... I think how you dealt with it in the original article is still very much appropriate ...also, once I have the parishes sorted into the geographical councils/suburgbs i wont include those councils/suburbs that are empty, I guess i wanted your thoughts about it bc I had promised to help you out but I was stuck on how to do it, should I do it at the Council level and then have the suburbs as a second level or just list according to suburbs and leave it at that ...[[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 18:06, March 20, 2008 (PDT)

== Please explain.. ==
Why you have endorsed the revision of the article you rolled back to, before protecting the article? Thank you. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 13:29, March 6, 2008 (PST)

Thank you for your explanation, that reveals your siding with one side in the dispute. Such a behavior is not appropriate for a sysop, and I will have to question your competence before respective authorities further. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 05:13, March 7, 2008 (PST)

==Australian Orthodox weblinks==
Do you know about this site [http://www.ausgreeknet.com/thechurch.htm AusGREEK NET.COM]? I figure you might like to use it in updating the OrthodoxWiki Australian articles ... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:39, March 20, 2008 (PDT)

== Chrysostom Homily ==
I was just thinking half hour ago that it was time to update that section and you went ahead and did it!! Xristos Anesti! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:07, April 29, 2008 (UTC)

== I need help ==

Hello,
I would like to post my dissertation from Pennsylvania State University entitled THE RELEVANCE OF THE MARONITE AND MELKITE CHURCHES WITHIN THE CATHOLIC ECCLESIAL COMMUNION
I guess I need technical help more than anything, as I am not sure how this website works and am not technically inclined

Thank you very much

Fortiorcantor555

== Rolling back ==

This vandal worked with a pair of accounts. Rolling back won't work. :/ We have to go into each article's history and find a version before these two accounts got into it. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 11:51, June 10, 2008 (UTC)

: Not sure. In any event, this pairing technique is particularly annoying. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 11:57, June 10, 2008 (UTC)

== Active appeal ==

There's currently an active appeal over at [[OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators]]. If as an admin, you would like to participate, please feel free to do so. Thanks! —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 16:02, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

==Africa==
Thanks for stepping on correcting the titles for the bishops. I had gotten confused on some of them, based on the Patriarchate's texts and other comments. I was especially confused on Kenya when I tries to put together items for Successions. You seem more informed on Africa, so I hope you may have info to extend the successions of the older dioceses. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 00:00, August 28, 2008 (UTC)

== URGENT - Ambush by computer generated Users ==
Hi, we are being ambushed by computer generated User accounts ... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:09, December 17, 2008 (UTC)
This is the first creation log:
(User creation log); 03:34 . . NovicOolol (Talk | contribs) (Created the user NovicOolol (Talk | contribs))

==OSRM article?!?!==

Am I reading what you said right on the Admins page? You want an OSRM (or -- just slightly safer-- a comparative Sarum rite) article? Do you not envision the bloodshed of at least a half-dozen or so booted users that would ensue off such, myself likely unwillingly included? --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:21, February 18, 2009 (UTC)

Western Rite

2009-02-18T01:16:55Z

JosephSuaiden: /* The Twentieth Century */ moved Fr Alexander up

The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church. Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold the full Orthodox faith in common with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]] but celebrate Western forms of liturgy. Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]]. At present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite.
{{westernrite}}
==Modern History==
===The Nineteenth Century===
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]]. Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy. He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church. In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years. A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.

The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite. A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend. The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the Tridentine [[Mass]]. This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission. Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility. He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.

In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879. There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material. In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.

However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite. Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure. Overbeck reposed in 1905.

One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox ("Jacobite") church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.

===The Twentieth Century===
[[Image:Alexander_Turner.jpg|right|thumb|Former Antiochian Western Rite Vicar General Fr. Alexander Turner celebrating Mass.]]
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after. In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church. It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]

St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring. While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy. St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility. According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry. In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner. It concluded that such edits "can be carried out only on the spot, in America," and found it "desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop." Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew. Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907. However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].

There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations).

====The United States====
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes. The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961. Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971. At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General. On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.

Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC). Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status.

The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America. In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery ("Christminster" colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].

====Elsewhere====
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England. Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.

Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities. Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.

Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.

The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes. The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph René Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics. Vilatte, however, returned to the Roman Catholic Church at the end of his life. Many independent churches now claim to be under his "succession".

==Liturgy in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate==

North American Western Rite parishes in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both). The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen] Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called "Tridentine" Mass]. Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy. Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.

The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.

The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:

:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was "a work for specialists." The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by "a Commission of Orthodox Theologians," an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine "the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts." The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.

:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, "establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline," drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]

Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.

==Congregations==

By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]]. Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]].
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries: one located in Canada, one in Tasmania, and one in Florida. Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or "The English Liturgy," an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory. St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Use]]. St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.

Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied: "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies." [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]
[[Image:Confeitor.jpg|left|thumb|Hieromonk Aidan (Keller, ROCOR) celebrating a Sarum liturgy.]]
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield "in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal" at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. Hieromonk David utilizes the propers used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]].

In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion recieved in a hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), and blessed the publication of an new edition of his seminal work, ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR. His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.

Western rite communities can also be found which are not, or no longer, in communion with the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].

The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]—also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements. The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].

In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] Synod (and therefore not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]]), has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]]. This recension is different from the version of the Sarum Rite used within ROCOR before 2008.

==Criticism==
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite. Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]]. However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy. There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.

Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen. In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes—and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes—continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.

==See also==
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]
* [[Sarum Rite]]
* [[Gallican Rite]]
* [[Stowe Missal]]
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada
* [[Vestments]]

==Sources==
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]

==External links==
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania]
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)

===Liturgies===
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]]
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.

===Books===
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819

===Introduction and History===
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]: [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence] Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite.
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html "Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,"] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church: Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.

===Video===
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas

===Apologiae===
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite "FAQ"
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.

===Criticism===
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the "Western Rite"], ibid.
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on "Western Rite"]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the "Western Rite" In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The "Western Rite": Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson

===News and Views===
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]

===Listservs===
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: "Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen." Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR).
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Yahoo discussion group on the Western rite; moderated by Father Aidan (Keller).
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orthodoxwest/ Orthodoxwest]: Yahoo discussion group on Orthodoxy in the West and sponsored by the Eastern Archdiocese of the Milan Synod; moderated by Father Symeon (Bensimon-Kilmer).

[[Category:Featured Articles]]
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]
[[Category:Liturgics]]
[[Category:Western Rite]]

[[bg:Западен обряд]]
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]

Western Rite

2009-02-18T01:16:27Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Congregations */

The '''Western Rite''' is a minority liturgical tradition within the Orthodox Church. Western Rite Orthodox Christians hold the full Orthodox faith in common with their brethren of the [[Byzantine Rite]] but celebrate Western forms of liturgy. Liturgical diversity, both between and within the East and West, was common before the [[Great Schism]]. At present, all of the [[bishop]]s who care for such [[parish]]es are themselves followers of the Byzantine Rite.
{{westernrite}}
==Modern History==
===The Nineteenth Century===
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]]''
In 1864, 44-year-old [[Joseph Julian Overbeck]] was [[chrismation|chrismated]] into the [[Orthodox Church]]. Overbeck was a former [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] priest from Germany who had left the priesthood after becoming disillusioned with papal supremacy. He became Lutheran and married before joining the Orthodox Church. In 1866, he published ''Catholic Orthodoxy and Anglo-Catholicism'', which contained the groundings for his work for the next twenty years. A year later, be began publishing a periodical, ''Orthodox Catholic Review'', aimed at putting forward Orthodoxy and rejecting Catholicism and Protestantism.

The year 1867 saw Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite. A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend. The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the Tridentine [[Mass]]. This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission. Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility. He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.

In 1876, Overbeck issued an appeal to the various Holy Synods, traveling to Constantinople in 1879. There he met the Ecumenical Patriarch, who authorized him to deliver sermons and create apologetical material. In 1881, he had some success when the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed that the West had a right to a Western church and rite.

However, his successes did not establish the Western Rite. Overbeck's marriage after his Catholic ordination was a canonical impediment to his ordination the Orthodox priesthood; the Holy Synod of Greece vetoed his scheme amongst Orthodox Churches, pressuring Constantinople to retract its previous endorsement; the ''Orthodox Catholic Review'' ended its run; and by 1892, he admitted failure. Overbeck reposed in 1905.

One Western Rite parish briefly entered communion with the Orthodox Church in the Nineteenth Century. In 1890, a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin pastored by Fr. Joseph Rene Vilatte approached Bp. Vladimir (Sokolovsky) about being received into Orthodoxy. Bp. Vladimir received them on May 9, 1891; however, Fr. Vilatte got ordained as an archbishop by the Syrian Orthodox ("Jacobite") church on May 29, 1892, and eventually led his parish back into Old Catholicism.

===The Twentieth Century===
[[Image:Fon-du-Lac Circus.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Episcopalian Consecration of Reginald Weller as co-adjutor bishop of Fond-du-Lac, 1900.]]
:''Main article: [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]]''
In 1911, Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch but left the Church soon after. In 1926, the six-parish ''Polish Catholic National Church'' was received into the Polish Orthodox Church. It celebrated the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and flourished as Orthodox until wiped out by the Nazis. [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html]

St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring. While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy. St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility. According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry. In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner. It concluded that such edits "can be carried out only on the spot, in America," and found it "desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop." Between communications, the Episcopalians who had petitioned withdrew. Thus, St. Tikhon could not receive any Episcopalians before returning to Russia in 1907. However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html] and later the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)]].

There has been a significant [[Orthodox Church of France|Western Rite movement in France]], the largest remaining group thereof being the ''Union des Associations Cultuelles Orthodoxes de Rite Occidental'' (UACORO - the Union of Western Rite Orthodox Worship Associations).

====The United States====
The Antiochian Archdiocese has presided over the most stable and successful group of Western Rite parishes. The Archdiocese received the [[Society of Clerks Secular of St. Basil]] in 1961. Upon reception, the SSB became the [[Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate]], and their leader, [[Alexander Turner]], becoming an Orthodox priest and the Vicar-General of the Vicariate until 1971. At his repose, Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla became Vicar-General. On January 1, 2009, Fr. Schneirla retired, and Fr. Edward Hughes became Vicar-General of the Western Rite.

Besides the parishes that were in the former Society, other parishes have been received into the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese, especially because of the theological and practical devolution of the The Episcopal Church (TEC). Added to this, several Western Rite missions have been founded, some growing into full parish status.

The Church of Russia received a New York Old Catholic community in 1962 as Mount Royal Monastery, which later moved from Woodstock, New York, to St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York City under Archbishop John (Wendland) of the Russian Exarchate of North America. In 1975, this community was received by Archbishop Nikon (Rklitzsky) of ROCOR and was again relocated. In 1993, after the retirement of the Abbot, Dom Augustine (Whitfield) of Mount Royal, the prior of Mount Royal, Fr. James (Deschene) was blessed to found Christ the Saviour Monastery ("Christminster" colloquially) in Rhode Island, under Bishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion of Manhattan]] (since transferred). As of 2007, Christminster relocated to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Its present abbot is Dom [[James (Deschene)|James Deschene]].

====Elsewhere====
In 1995, the Church of Antioch also established a British Deanery to absorb converts from the Church of England. Not all of these parishes are Western Rite.

Western Rite Orthodoxy, in [[Orthodoxy in Australasia|Australia and New Zealand]], has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities. Archbishop [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney]] of ROCOR received some communities under his omophorion; while others have been received by Bishop [[Gibran (Ramlawey) of Australia and New Zealand|Gibran]] and Metropolitan Archbishop [[Paul (Saliba) of Australia and New Zealand|Paul]], both under the Church of Antioch.

Other small groups following the Western Rite have been received, but usually have either had little impact, or have declared their independence soon after their reception.

The [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches also have some Western Rite parishes. The Syrian patriarchate of Antioch consecrated Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez as Archbishop of Ceylon, Goa, and India in 1889, authorizing a Roman rite diocese under him; in 1891, the Syrians consecrated the aforementioned Joseph René Vilatte as archbishop for the American Old Catholics. Vilatte, however, returned to the Roman Catholic Church at the end of his life. Many independent churches now claim to be under his "succession".

==Liturgy in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate==

North American Western Rite parishes in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate generally follow one of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions (and sometimes both). The majority celebrate the [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]], which is commonly accepted to be an adaptation of the [[Eucharist|Communion]] service from the 1928 Anglican ''Book of Common Prayer'' and ''The Anglican Missal in the American Edition.''[http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/history.htm#fifteen] Until 1977, all Western Rite Vicariate parishes celebrated only the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]], which is a modified form of the [http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm so-called "Tridentine" Mass]. Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy. Since most AWRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, many of the parishes that celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon on Sunday celebrate the Liturgy of St. Gregory on weekdays.

The Western Rite liturgy, depending on its type, makes less use of the litanies than the Byzantine Rite. Celebrants wear distinctive Western vestments, and the faithful follow pious devotional customs particular to their tradition, as well.

The development of the current use within the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] is of particular note:

:Metropolitan Antony was well aware that the Western Rite was "a work for specialists." The new Western Rite usage of the Archdiocese was to be guided by "a Commission of Orthodox Theologians," an advisory committee of qualified clerics or laymen to advise the Metropolitan and determine "the mode of reception of groups desiring to employ the Western Rite, and the character of the rites to be used, as well as the authorization of official liturgical texts." The first WRV Commission, convened by Metropolitan Antony in 1958, was composed of Fathers Paul Schneirla, Stephen Upson, [[Alexander Schmemann]] and [[John Meyendorff]]. Schneirla, Schmemann, and Meyendorff in particular had seen the Western Rite up close in France, as it had been approved in the Russian Ukase of 1936. Schneirla recalls Schmemann's work in particular as being key, as he was familiar with the Liturgical Movement within the Roman Catholic and Anglican communions. Schmemann was particularly instrumental in joining together the separate Rites of Initiation of the Rituale Romanum – Baptism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion – into one unified rite, according to the Orthodox understanding.

:In January of 1962, the official Western Rite Directory was issued, "establishing liturgical usages and customs and discipline," drawing on principles gleaned from the 1904 Moscow Synodal response to Saint Tikhon, the authorization of Western Rite offices by Metropolitan Gerassimos (Messarah) of Beirut, and the 1932 Russian Ukase of Metropolitan Sergius.[http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html]

Ironically, before his committed and pivotal involvement with the architecture of the current usage of the Western Rite, Fr. Schmemann had criticized it in a response to a 1958 article Fr. Schneirla wrote in ''The Word''.[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html] However, after his criticisms, Fr. Schmemann worked to establish the Western Rite Vicariate and, later still, taught at the Western Rite seminary in Paris.

==Congregations==

By far the largest group of Western Orthodox parishes is represented by the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] of the [[Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]]. Other Antiochian Western Rite parishes exist in the [[Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand]].
The [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR) also has a small number of Western Rite parishes in addition to three monasteries: one located in Canada, one in Tasmania, and one in Florida. Missions and parishes of the ROCOR Western Rite use either the Rite of St. Gregory in one of varying uses (Sarum, Christminster, Mount Royal, or Overbeck), the Gallican Rite, or "The English Liturgy," an English Use service based upon the Sarum Use but which adapts a few elements of the 1549 ''Book of Common Prayer''. Christminster Monastery in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, is a Western Orthodox Benedictine monastery, which celebrates the Liturgy of St. Gregory. St. Petroc Monastery in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, celebrates the [[Sarum Use]]. St. Petroc has a number of dependencies that follow its liturgical usage, as found in the ''Saint Colman Prayer Book''.

Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the [[abbot]] of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. [[John Maximovitch]] that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied: "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies." [http://www.christminster.org/history.htm]
[[Image:Confeitor.jpg|left|thumb|Hieromonk Aidan (Keller, ROCOR) celebrating a Sarum liturgy.]]
In 2008, Metropolitan [[Hilarion (Kapral) of New York|Hilarion]] of ROCOR [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html blessed] Hieromonk David (Pierce) to assist Dom Augustine Whitfield "in the continuation of the work of Mt. Royal" at Hieromonk David's monastery, Holyrood, in Florida. Hieromonk David utilizes the propers used in the Eastern Archdiocese of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]].

In late 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion recieved in a hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), and blessed the publication of an new edition of his seminal work, ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'' for his personal prayers, while he serves a Byzantine parish in ROCOR. His liturgy had previously been blessed by the Western Archdiocese of the Milan Synod.

Western rite communities can also be found which are not, or no longer, in communion with the mainstream [[Orthodox Church]].

The [[Orthodox Church of France]] was once cared for by St. [[John Maximovitch]] and later by the [[Church of Romania]]—also uses a Western Rite liturgy based on ancient Gallican liturgical materials, with some Byzantine supplements. The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]].

In addition, the [[Holy Synod of Milan]], an [[Old Calendarist]] Synod (and therefore not in communion with the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox Church]]), has a number of communities (under the central direction of the monastery and Archdiocesan center, the [[The Abbey of the Holy Name (West Milford, New Jersey)|Abbey of the Holy Name]]) which worship according to Western rites, including its own version of the [[Sarum Use]]. This recension is different from the version of the Sarum Rite used within ROCOR before 2008.

==Criticism==
:''Main article: [[Western Rite Criticism]]''
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite. Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite [[Eucharist]]. However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy. There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.

Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen. In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes—and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes—continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.

==See also==
* [[Western Rite Vicariate]]
* [[Sarum Rite]]
* [[Gallican Rite]]
* [[Stowe Missal]]
* [[Divine Liturgy according to St. Germanus of Paris]]
* [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]]
* [[Western Rite Service Books]]
* [[Liturgy of St. Tikhon (text)]]
* [[Saint Petroc Monastery (Cascades, Australia)|Saint Petroc Monastery]], Australia
* [[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Canada
* [[Vestments]]

==Sources==
* ''Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity'', pp. 364-365, 514-515
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/western-rite Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite]
* [[Wikipedia:Western Rite Orthodoxy]]

==External links==
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ Western Orthodoxy]
* [http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/westernrite.htm The Unofficial Western Rite Orthodoxy Website]
* [http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America]
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/ Saint Petroc Monastery ROCOR Tasmania]
* [http://www.christminster.org Christ the Savior Monastery ROCOR Rhode Island]
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Worldwide directory of canonical Western Rite Orthodox communities]
* [http://members.cox.net/frnicholas/parishes.htm Western Rite Parishes] (North America, with links to parish sites)

===Liturgies===
*[http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm Text of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory]
*[http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF Text of the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon], though not in its authorized form.
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Text of the Sarum Rite Liturgy] as corrected for use within [[ROCOR]] by His Grace Archbishop Hilarion
*[http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm Text of the English Liturgy]
*[http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm Text of the Divine Liturgy according to Saint Germanus of Paris]]
*[http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/resources/osboff7.pdf Office and Prayers of the Oblates of St. Benedict] (PDF) - Western Rite oblates.
*[http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Liturgical Texts Project] (PDF) - Compilation of numerous liturgical texts.

===Books===
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=23809 Children of the Promise: An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781418475826
* ''[http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~40659.aspx Offering the Lamb: Reflections on the Western Rite Mass in the Orthodox Church]'', by Fr. Michael Keiser. ISBN 9781425970819

===Introduction and History===
* A Short History of the Western Rite Vicariate, by [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Benjamin Andersen]: [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/short-history-of-western-rite.html Part 1], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-two.html Part 2], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-three.html Part 3], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-four.html Part 4], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-five.html Part 5], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-six.html Part 6], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-seven.html Part 7], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-eight.html Part 8], [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/2004/09/western-rite-history-part-nine.html Part 9] (permission required)
* [http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/ Occidental Orthodox Christianity] Dedicated to the furtherance of the Western Rite within canonical Orthodoxy.
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/wrbooklet An Introduction to Western Rite Orthodoxy], An electronic version of the now out-of-print Conciliar Press booklet; edited by Fr. Michael Trigg, Ph.D.
* [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/ Orthodox Resurgence] Movement for Western Christians seeking reception in the Orthodox Western Rite.
* [http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/alcuin/tract12.html "Observations on the American Book of Common Prayer,"] the Holy Synod of Russia's guidelines for suiting the 1892 Book of Common Prayer for celebration within Orthodoxy.
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/turner The Western Rite: Its Fascinating Past and Its Promising Future], by Fr. [[Alexander Turner]]
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/overbeck.pdf The Western Rite and the Eastern Church: Dr. J. J. Overbeck and his scheme for the re-establishment of the Orthodox Church in the West (PDF)], by Fr. David F. Abramtsov, University of Pittsburgh, 1959
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/anthony On the Western Rite Edict of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir)], by Fr. David Abramstov, in addition to an excerpt from the report of Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) to the 1958 Archdiocesan Convention
*[http://www.christminster.org/write.htm Western Orthodox Christians: Who Are They?], from [[Christminster (Providence, Rhode Island)]], a Benedictine Monastery under [[ROCOR]]
*[http://www.christminster.org/history.htm History of Christminster]
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/whatis What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?], by Fr. Patrick McCauley
*[http://www.westernorthodox.com/twain The Twain Meet], by Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla
* [http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/westernrites.htm Western Rite Orthodox in our midst: Ad Fontes!], by Dr. Alexander Roman
* [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,870973,00.html Eastern But Western], from the May 1, 1964, issue of [i]Time[/i] Magazine.

===Video===
*[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-fuller-christmas-eve-mass-with.html Video] of Dom James Deschene celebrating Midnight Mass for Christmas 2009 at the Oratory of our Lady of Glastonbury, the chapel attached to Christminster Monastery.
*[http://stpaulsorthodox.org/Media/SaintPaul.wmv Video] on the Western Rite from St. Paul Orthodox Church, Houston, Texas

===Apologiae===
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely
* [http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver
* [http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite "FAQ"
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/ Occidentalis - A Weblog of Orthodox Catholic Christianity in the Western Rite tradition] (permission required)
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]
*[http://http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.

===Criticism===
* [http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the "Western Rite"], ibid.
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on "Western Rite"]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the "Western Rite" In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]
* [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The "Western Rite": Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson

===News and Views===
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20070222203921/http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog, Western Rite section] (archive) - consisting primarily of original documents written by Fr. Alexander Turner and other WRV clergy.
* [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] - maintained by Subdn. Benjamin Andersen (WRV), this blog is a source for this OrthodoxWiki entry. (permission required)
* [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] - Breaking news and views on the Western Rite.
* [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com Oremus - Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church]

===Listservs===
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westernriteorthodoxy Western Rite Orthodoxy]: Discussion of Western Rite Orthodoxy, focusing the [[Western Rite Vicariate]] (Antiochian). Most active participants are members of the Antiochian WRV.
* [http://p097.ezboard.com/belyforum The Ely Forum]: "Dedicated to the theological and liturgical heritage of The Church in the British Isles, the ancient Patriarchates of the Undivided Church and the restoration of our genuine heritage of Orthodox Christianity in the West. A place of sane, sensible, lively, discussion between Christian gentlemen." Founded by Fr. Michael of St. Petroc Monastery (ROCOR).
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/ Occidentalis]: Yahoo discussion group on the Western rite; moderated by Father Aidan (Keller).
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orthodoxwest/ Orthodoxwest]: Yahoo discussion group on Orthodoxy in the West and sponsored by the Eastern Archdiocese of the Milan Synod; moderated by Father Symeon (Bensimon-Kilmer).

[[Category:Featured Articles]]
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]
[[Category:Liturgics]]
[[Category:Western Rite]]

[[bg:Западен обряд]]
[[ro:Ritul occidental]]

OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators

2009-02-18T01:15:25Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Responding to this attempt at self-defense */

{| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE"
|-
| style="font-size: 100%" |
'''If you are here to appeal a warning issued by a sysop''', be sure first to read carefully over the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]] to see if you have in fact violated it.

If you feel that you have not violated the policy, then you may post an appeal here to ask other sysops (not the one who issued the warning) to review the act and possibly reverse the decision. The sysop who issued the warning may defend his doing so in the discussion, but he is not hearing the appeal.

To post an appeal, do so by clicking the '''+''' at the top of this page (next to the '''edit''' tab) and including a brief subject line, so that your appeal will have its own section for discussion. In the main body, please describe why you feel that your behavior was not a violation of official policy.

Please note: '''Whether or not someone else "deserves" to be warned or banned is irrelevant in your appeal.''' The only issue at hand is your own behavior.

As per the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]], once three sysops have examined the appeal and voted, a majority of votes either in favor or against overturning it decides the case.

Thanks!
|}

== Liturgy of St. Tikhon Page Needs Moderating ==

As you can see, a poster who goes by [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User:Fr_Lev "Fr Lev"] has started another [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history "edit war"] on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon page. He has also started a long, self-contradictory explanation on its [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow Talk page], and I, probably unwisely, tried to respond to give a rationale for my edits to the moderators. This same poster waged three similar efforts against me this February 12-14 on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history Liturgy of St. Tikhon], the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history Liturgy of St. Gregory], and the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history main Western Rite] pages (and got at least one of them locked). He throws fits anytime anyone corrects his articles, accusing them of "personal animus" (see [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Misinformation here] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#ANSWER here]) or says they are [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Precisions_for_fr_Lev "being silly"].

I have '''not''' undone his latest reversion-of-a-reversion (the second in 24 hours), because Fr. Andrew [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection specifically warned] this poster the last time this happened, "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned." I will not restore accurate information at this time, but I've given the reasons I think it should be. I just don't want to be accused of participating in this nonsense, which is why I'm calling in "the adults." :)

I'd appreciate it if accurate, non-POV edits were not constantly replaced with inaccurate, misleading statements (which seem to serve an agenda) in endless edit wars. And we'd all appreciate it if we could go on contributing here without malicious charges of personal attacks. It's wearying. I'd appreciate if one of you could step in. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:18, June 27, 2008 (UTC)

: My responses are noted on your [[User talk:Willibrord|talk page]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Come back, directory pages! ==

Crud. I didn't know these were going away, and I was quite baffled just now when I tried to search for them and couldn't find any.

It was very nice to have all the various jurisdictions on one page. I just used the Oklahoma page myself a couple months ago when we were in Tulsa and wanted to find a nearby parish.

I took a look at OrthodoxyInAmerica.org, but just in Missouri I can see that some information is out-of-date, and the "Please allow three to four weeks for your submission to be processed" on the add/modify/delete page isn't encouraging at all. The correction form is also annoyingly long if all you want to do is correct a misspelling or change the priest's name.

Even if the directory pages here get out of date, it's far easier to edit and fix them, and many of us were happy to do so. I would like to vote that they be brought back. {{unsigned|Kyralessa}}

: If you think stuff on the OIA site tends to be out of date, it was worse here! (Especially because we were constantly having to fend off various non-SCOBA types, etc.) In any event, perhaps this might make a good project for [[osource:Main Page|OrthodoxSource]]. It's not really appropriate for an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:27, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

:Hmm... I agree that the content was worthwhile, and I also recognize why Fr. Andrew wants to keep it out of the "encyclopedia." It's not really the intention of OrthodoxSource, but we could move it over there... Or put it on another site. But, like he says... someone needs to moderate it. For my part, I'm not *too* opposed to its being on here. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

:I wholeheartedly agree with Kyralessa: I too was baffled to see that the directory pages were gone, and think that deleting them wasn't a very good idea. I personally have submitted ''numerous'' corrections to Orthodoxy in America using their interminable form (duplicate entries, misspellings, non-existent parishes, new parishes and missions, new websites and email addresses, etc.) which have never made it to the database; here, it was only a matter of going to the page and editing it. And for whatever it's worth the OW parish listings that I saw were, on the whole, more accurate than those in OIA (but of course, I did not see them all). I do understand the problem to which Fr Andrew refers above and appreciate how hard it would be to implement a solution, but it's really a shame that this very useful and easily editable resource had to go. If the pages are reinstated here or recreated elsewhere and help is needed to monitor them, I'll be more than glad to help in any way I can. --[[User:Voxstefani|Esteban]] 08:26, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::The plus side of the directories was that they invited folks to join OrthodoxWiki just to fix the inaccurate listings that they had knowledge of. The negative side was that it was a enormous maintenance task to keep them standardized let alone accurate. (I myself liked them just for the links to the local parish websites.) But if we do bring them back, we may need to put a disclaimer, on each one of them, warning that they are only maintained by users and nothing is guaranteed. - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 16:05, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::If my voice counts, I'd like to speak in favor of returning USA parish directory pages to Orthodox Wiki. Like some other people here, I've been having problems with orthodoxyinamerica. Their claimed response time (three to four weeks) is simply unacceptable, but the worst thing is - some submissions don't even get processed. My parish has recently moved from one city to another, and I've just submitted a listing update to OIA, but I'm not too optimistic about them updating it soon. --[[User:Alexei Kojenov|Alexei Kojenov]] 18:17, October 11, 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks everyone for your feedback. I totally agree that a good pan-Orthodox directory of Churches is needed... I think this might not be the place... but let me see about getting something up soon :-). — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

::Actually, have you seen the Parish Directory at [http://scoba.us scoba.us]? It's slightly out of date, and could contain more information, but it's decent and has nice maps. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

== Appeal of Fr. Andrew's Inequitable Treatment ==

Fr. Andrew issued an official warning to me over the [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]] page. I feel his actions represent highly inequitable treatment, arbitrary standards, and partiality in implementation of the rules. He acknowledged that the statements in question were ''not'' actually offensive (I quote: "no one of your comments recently has been above the top") but issued one anyway. However, his entire comment, [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b#Some_straightforward_facts found here], is misleading.

The warning came over the Talk page for St. Tikhon's Liturgy, the longest talk page on OrthodoxWiki and one of the most contentious. The discussion centered on an edit war a poster who goes by the ID "Fr Lev" instigated. He did the same to [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history several] of my [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history articles] between [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history Feb. 12-14] of this year, getting at least one "Protected" as a result.

As I [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:ASDamick#The_Reason_You_Make_the_Big_Bucks explained on Fr. Andrew's discussion page], the last time this poster started an edit war [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection Fr. Andrew, acting as a moderator, wrote], "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period." I made an edit to the St. Tikhon's Liturgy page and saw this poster immediately revert it. I reverted this article [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history once], and he again immediately reverted it. When I saw this poster was again determined to continually revert to a previous edit, ''I left his version up'' and alerted Fr. Andrew I was ''not'' going to engage in an edit war but would abide by a moderator's decision. Pistevo moved in and moderated that poster's objections; I think the moderator would testify I proved more than willing to cite sources and answer objections with verifiable facts. (Perusing the gargantuan archives of that Talk Page would prove that. Note: The discussions were not written chronologically, and since comments were split up, not all were signed -- making it somewhat hard to follow.) Ultimately, Pistevo agreed I had proven my point from third party sources.

At essentially that point, Fr. Andrew upbraided me for allegedly not referring to third party sources on a specific point (I had cited them) and furthering an edit war (see above).

He then issued a warning for allegedly refusing "to engage the arguments without attacking those making them." I think the substantive refutation of those arguments in the 80K talk page belies that. Moreover, the argument he warned me over, which he acknowledged was not ''actually'' objectionable in any way (!), was directed at that poster's ''argument'', not at ''him''; I did (and do) find his argument repetitive, semantical, and in error. However, '''it is far from even-handed treatment''' that Fr. Andrew warned me, much less only me, for behavior he did not find objectionable and which the other poster had done much more than I could dream of. Although I am not quick to claim offense, you'll verify in the Talk Archives ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1a archives 1a] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b 1b]) that this poster has repeatedly used ''ad hominem'' attacks against me, writing that I am someone who "wishes to pretend" my edits were true and have made "an attempt to confuse" your readers about the matter ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior '''''both implying bad faith and imputing a hidden agenda''''']). In his rhetorical first-strikes, he's asserted I have made "false claims" and spread "misinformation" (try counting the number of times he used that word on that Talk page) through "misrepresentations" and "personal invective" (and then accused me of making statements I had not made). He wrote that I believe Met. PHILIP "is acting 'in ignorance or malice'" (!) My words are "silly"; "silly, incoherent, and demonstrably false." And you'll notice [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow#Misinformation_continues who used the term Fr. Andrew referenced in his official warning as allegedly offensive, "puzzling," first].

1. Fr. Andrew acknowledged in his message my words DID NOT go "over the top" and violate any standard. Thus, there is no ''habeas corpus'' here, if you wish. This seems to allow moderators to discipline people whenever they feel like it, reason or no reason. C.S. Lewis eloquently addressed the notion of [http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment], that we should punish others, not because they actually violate rules, but to deter them somehow. If no standard was broken, as Fr. Andrew admits, '''no punishment is in order'''.
2. If the mild comments he cited did violate the rules, the other poster's comments to which they responded did so far more. Yet I alone got reprimanded (and blamed for an "edit war" in return for following Fr. Andrew's instructions, as well). This implies partiality or a sliding scale of discipline.

'''This is not equitable'''. I request that the moderators rescind said warning, send this poster an equal official warning, or (preferably) both. -[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:31, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

I should add, Fr. Andrew did not follow through on his threat to ban that poster for conducting another edit war, either. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:32, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

: I fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. Fr. Andrew is not just an admin here, but more importantly an Orthodox priest entrusted with the Holy Mysteries. Yours in Christ, --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 16:11, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

::I also fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. I fail to see how a first warning is "punishment." A warning does not have to be "equitable." (I also fail to see how "(preferably) both" rescinding your warning while sending Fr Lev "an equal official warning" would be "equitable.") —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 17:29, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

:I have watched the by-play on the St Tikhon's Liturgy article. I am not knowledgeable about the liturgy and thus can't comment on it. But, I find the back and forth much like a "playground" dispute that a teacher is mediating and trying to end. As far as "punishments" a teacher can only treat the protagonists as they argue - thus the "punishments" can be "unequal". I don't find Fr. Andrew's comments out of order as the discussion seems to be a "he did it - no he did it." Let's be adults! Or are we getting into another "iota" argument. The 'big' one has lasted some 15 centuries. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 20:34, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

While I am not an administrator-- as someone who received a warning for an edit war from Father Andrew on a related topic and around the same time (which I have not formally disputed and will not because I was in the wrong), I also support Fr Andrew's moderation, as such warnings are applied not based on partisanship, but basic common sense. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:55, August 20, 2008 (UTC)
::The way I see this, [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Appeals|the appeals policy]] is [[User:Willibrord]] has posted an appeal of a warning here, and a panel of the first three sysops have volunteered by way of replies. It seems that they agree with the warning, so is there any thing else? - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 15:52, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::: Nope. Case closed, as per the policy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 17:21, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::::A warning to the other poster would have been an act of mercy; had Fr. Andrew followed through with his own threat, he would have banned that poster for starting another edit war.
::::The back-and-forth was not a playground thing but a case where I ''called in'' a moderator to forestall that poster’s edit war, confident I could prove my case with third-party documentation to a moderator’s satisfaction. And I did.
::::I disagree with the reasoning here: Orthodox don't believe in priestly infallibility; he acknowledged no rule had been violated; and rules by definition should apply equally. But I'll abide by your decision.
::::I'm not sure when Joseph Suaiden became an admin. This seems to indicate he's merely following me around the board.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:28, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::: 1. As I said in my comments, it was not any one of your remarks, but the preponderance of them together and the clear spirit which they convey, which I regarded as over the line. That I happen to be a priest has nothing to do with it, really. The panel of admins which volunteered to hear your appeal does, though.

::::: 2. I did not feel that Fr. Lev violated the disciplinary policy since it was put in place, but you did. (The warning was in response to posts by you ''after'' the policy was put in place. We won't retroactively enforce it.) In any event, whether he gets warned, banned, or whatever else. To put it bluntly: you're not an administrator, so you don't get to decide.

::::: 3. Joseph Suaiden is not an admin, but it doesn't surprise me that he's watching this particular page. (Of course, many editors simply watch [[Special:Recentchanges]].) It wouldn't surprise me that any editor does so. His comments on your receiving a warning are about as relevant as yours on Fr. Lev.

::::: 4. You clearly disagree with how things are run here. You have two options: either work with the administration or stop editing. The apparent (mind you, I don't know the state of your heart) hostility isn't going to get you much of anywhere. I suggest taking a wiki-break or perhaps working on some articles which don't stir up such controversy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:34, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::::All the quotations from Fr. Lev I reproduce above, from the St. Tikhon Liturgy Talk page -- including those imputing a hidden agenda and assuming bad faith -- occurred '''after''' this policy was instituted ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy&action=history May 29, if I'm reading correctly]). You can verify that [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&limit=250&action=history here]. Unless you feel the words I quote above do not violate this policy, and my milder words do, the implementation of this policy was not even-handed.
::::::Miscommunication often comes from divining a "clear spirit" rather than reading someone's words themselves. Anyway, my disagreement was on your particular handling of this situation, and I agreed to abide by the decision here. And I've already moved on. But I do not feel this was equitable implementation. If you were under the impression his words were before the policy was implemented, you were mistaken.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:24, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

== The problem moves to the Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Since the Liturgy of St Tikhon page is locked and Willibrord has lost his appeal of the warning, he has now moved on to the Liturgy of St Gregory page and removed the reference to the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', even though the entry as it stood said most AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal''. But since (1) some AWRV parishes do use the SASB; (2) the SASB is published by the Antiochian Archdiocese; and (3) the SASB contains a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP identifying the contents of the SASB as authorized liturgies for the Archdiocese, Willibrord's edit seems to be another attempt to edit the article not according to the facts but according to his personal preference of service book. I will refrain from changing the edit; however, I do think that in a straightforward case like this, such editing amounts to propaganda and should not be permitted. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:29, August 22, 2008 (UTC)
:Nope, Pistevo has ruled the OM/SASB issue is settled in favor of the SASB. Thus, this correct information was posted elsewhere in place of inaccurate information. If there's a problem, it's a refusal to abide by her ruling.
:I am most tired of these polemical attacks on everything I write. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:03, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:: Just for reference, [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]] is male. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:37, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:::What's the emoticon for "I'm so embarrassed"? Like I was I saying above, assumptions.... --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:26, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::If memory serves, :-$ - and for what it's worth, you're the second person on here to assume that...are people trying to tell me something? :P — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 02:03, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

:::::It's your gentle Christian manner. :-) A thousand pardons (asked with crimson face). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 13:54, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

== Moderation needed on Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Willibrord has again changed the Liturgy of St Gregory page, this time making the flase claim that the ''Orthodox Missa''l contains the "only" authorized text of the liturgy. The SASB, published a year '''after''' the ''Orthodox Missal'', was published by the Antiochian Archdiocese with a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP referring to it as "authorized" liturgies. The SASB is used by at least some AWRV parishes. To claim that the OM is the "only" authorized text betrays an interest in promoting something other than the facts. This matter is not settled. Neither Pistevo nor a subdeacon's thesis trumps the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese. IS Willibrod claiming that the SASB was not published by the Antiochian Archdioces? Is he claiming that the letter from Metropolitan PHILIP is a forgery, or that the Metropolitan doesn't have the authority to make such an authorization? Is he claiming that the AWRV parishes that use the SASB are using "unauthorized" liturgies in defiance of the Metropolitan? These are not matters of opinion; these are simple, straightforward, matters of fact. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:15, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

:As noted above, Pistevo (he of the male sex!) has settled the question of OM vs. SASB authorization on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=edit&section=1 Liturgy of St. Tikhon Talk page]. This is a straightforward matter of fact. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:07, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

== Guess What Needs Moderating Again? ==

Yep, it's the [[Western Rite]] page. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" PR squad seems intent on raiding the board. Take a look. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:42, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For once we agree. Since I am being falsely accused (what's new) of being part of this 'squad' when I am trying to just keep the article from becoming slanted, I want moderation there as well.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I'd like to make clear that what Willibrord is doing is at least indirectly in violation of OW policy (Agendas), and I'd like to bring it to your attention.

If I kept a public blog where I repeatedly referred to someone's clerical title in quotes (say I didn't like Father Benjamin Johnson and so I wrote a bunch of articles referring to him as "Father" Benjamin Johnson), would I be an objective person to discuss concerning this individual on a Wiki? Probably not. By deleting any reference to the liturgical work of someone who's made a real impact on the acceptability of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy, the Wiki is being done a disservice. Since I've already gotten a warning on it, I may as well speak freely. Am I wrong in assuming that Fr Aidan should be off-limits for Willibrord?

I won't even discuss Willibrord's "contributions" on the Liturgy of St Tikhon, since others do anyway. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:41, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

: What [[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] does on his own weblog is not OW's business, unless he chooses to import its contents or agenda here.

: In any event, I'm not sure what the Agenda is (perhaps you can tell us). Is it that all of Fr. Aidan's work is being systematically de-referenced on the wiki? From what I can tell, his publications are worthy of mention and have made a notable enough impact to warrant their inclusion as reference in WR-related material on OW. If that is indeed the Agenda, it needs to be cut out immediately.

: And could someone please explain to me why it is that the WR articles always seem to draw such contentiousness? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::Well, it is one of the few areas of conscious development in contemporary Orthodox liturgics... building from that, it may be easy to see a crossover from Eastern liturgics which (for various reasons, better or worse) have been set in stone and earmarked under 'unchangeable', when Western liturgics is, while liturgics, obviously not set in stone... both mere possibilities, of course - but, at the very least, a definite image problem. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 14:12, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

I submit that is precisely the agenda, and that a review of edits as well as condescending statements (referring to the OSRM as "authorized for use in a room in his sister's house", for example, when Holyrood house, Christminster, St Petroc and their work--all places he for some reason *doesn't mind*-- are apartment chapels) can be submitted as proof. The pattern is obvious when you look at any mention of Father Aidan or the "Old Sarum rite missal".

Again, I agree with you on the putting up a private website-- normally. But searching for "Keller" on the blog establishes in this case -- the 'why' to the 'what' of the edits.

In my opinion WR stuff is so contentious because since we are supposed to be the small minority of the West people think they are supposed to put on airs. We're so few that we tend to get louder to be heard. That and Sarum is touchy for obvious political reasons, --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:05, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

:Sigh, I suppose I have to answer this....

:'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me.

:'''As to the substance of the complaint''':
:I specifically refrained from removing the text's reference to the "Old Sarum Rite Missal," [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22|stating]], "Since I was [[User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism|falsely accused]] of 'vandalism' for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own." (More about that below.) The agenda has, in fact, been the reverse: to "source" certain materials as often as possible to make themselves appear more important than they are.

:The fact that Holyrood Monastery and St. Petroc's Monastery are small monasteries is immaterial; they are exclusively WR monasteries that celebrate a full cycle of Western Rite services, including WR hours and Mass/Liturgy. At St. Petroc, Sunday services are held at an associated church, not a home chapel. St. Petroc has a number of associated chapels, at least one sister mission (run by Fr. Barry Jeffries), and Fr. Michael celebrates WR liturgy on at least two continents each year. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is not being celebrated anywhere within Orthodoxy to my knowledge, not even the Eastern or Western Archdioceses of the Milan Synod. Met. HILARION reportedly allowed its author to pray his translation of Sarum (presumably the hours?) for his private, home prayers, not in public (where he serves a Byzantine church). I'm not sure that is relevant to Western Rite "Congregations"; frankly, bishops allow priests to pray all sorts of things privately. I am even less certain two large pictures (one mislabeled) of that missal, not being celebrated anywhere, are a more appropriate graphic for an article about the WR than a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner (which [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&curid=838&diff=80850&oldid=80847 chrisg deleted in favor of the OSRM]). What's being "sourced" and "de-sourced" there?

:The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."

:The thrust of the last two days' edits have been to introduce material that sure seems off-topic, give it a place of prominence not in keeping with reality (e.g., its not being celebrated publicly, or at all), and to contradict sourced statements with unsourced statements, which happen to exalt the Milan Synod, of which Mr. Suaiden is a member (or a Reader).

:I hope this closes the hate-Ben-Johnson portion of the week, and the moderators -- having heard the evidence -- will green light sourced statements over unsourced ones. Then I can write about something I enjoy (the WR) not something I do not enjoy writing about (me). And maybe OW can return to its purpose of presenting well-written, factually correct articles, not assaulting its authors.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:06, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

::Alright, some things that I can see that are able to be resolved.
::If it's not feasibly able to be attended by members of the public (i.e. if it's not advertised), it's not a church, it's private prayer.
::That doesn't stop that usage from being an approved usage.
::Blogs - and, whatever else you do on your own time - are neither here nor there. We're all about the articles. While a side tangent into why a person thinks the way they do is often amusing, it invariably snaps either into bowdlerism or ad hominem.
::If there's a source, the line stays, particularly in an article so desperately requiring sources. That seems a fairly useful rule. Really, as far as hedging goes, counter-sources merely introduce a 'so-and-so claims that (text) (source)'. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 22:34, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

== Responding to this attempt at self-defense ==

Fr Benjamin asserts--

''"'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me."''

'''This is mainly non-sequitur'''. We could probably go on all day about our last year or so, but it is largely immaterial. (I shall explain why shortly.) The origin of my site was a direct response to a letter that was sent from Fr Benjamin attacking the mental stability of myself (and my wife, who had nothing to do with him) as well as a number of broad claims. Over time, and getting to know others in the vicariate I felt that calling the whole vicariate a fraud just because of YOUR predilection towards Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism was in fact NOT as common in the AWRV as I had initially thought. Thus, I had taken down the original attacking blog (located at bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com) and created a friendlier site at (westernorthodoxchristian.blogspot.com). I didn't even realize those sites were still up, and so thank you for noticing. I've deleted them.

I realized that the desire for Western Orthodox ''tradition'' was cross-jurisdictional, as was residual "Popery and Protestantism" (to call to mind Dr Overbeck).

Further, I don't know ChrisG at all.

'''That said, however, my direct response to you after you attacked my family in the hope of finding "Western Rite Critic"''' ''pales in comparison to your years-long obsession with Fr Aidan'', going so far as to keep him (albeit temporarily in retrospect) from being taken in by the ROCOR--in 2004. My issues on my websites were a few months old, and I realized my wrong. By contrast you are still very much interested in destroying Father Aidan's work.

Further, I was invited to OrthodoxWiki to help on Old Calendarists, and I freely contribute in a number of places. I am curious as to what your contribution/deletion ratio is. Many of your contributions are edit-wars.

He then states--

'':"The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."''

'''It's not unclear at all.''' Fr Cuthbert-cum-David was and is using the texts of the Medieval Monastic Psalter. Strangely, he has suddenly become interested publicly in the Overbeck recension... so the text of his ordinary may change. Perhaps he lacks one; as the MMP contains much of the Ordinary to begin with. I didn't suggest removing Holyrood at all, but references as to a use of which we are yet uncertain (and based on dialogue on the [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/14419 Occidentalis list], it may be "under development"). And Holyrood doesn't "house two hieromonks" I am aware of. You may now claim Fr Augustine (Whitfield) as ROCOR, but he lives in an aged home, not with Fr Cuthbert (or David).

Note-- Don't try to cover up an agenda by claiming I have one.

P.S. I've already commented on you and Ari Adams working with each other to push a common agenda on this Wiki. What do the other posters have in common with each other, and why are you fighting them too? FrLev, don't know him. But a war you had. Same with ChrisG. Am I responsible for those too? --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:12, February 18, 2009 (UTC)

Further, Fr Benjamin here makes a totally false claims:

'':The fact that Holyrood Monastery and St. Petroc's Monastery are small monasteries is immaterial; they are exclusively WR monasteries that celebrate a full cycle of Western Rite services, including WR hours and Mass/Liturgy. At St. Petroc, Sunday services are held at an associated church, not a home chapel. St. Petroc has a number of associated chapels, at least one sister mission (run by Fr. Barry Jeffries), and Fr. Michael celebrates WR liturgy on at least two continents each year. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is not being celebrated anywhere within Orthodoxy to my knowledge, not even the Eastern or Western Archdioceses of the Milan Synod. Met. HILARION reportedly allowed its author to pray his translation of Sarum (presumably the hours?) for his private, home prayers, not in public (where he serves a Byzantine church). I'm not sure that is relevant to Western Rite "Congregations"; frankly, bishops allow priests to pray all sorts of things privately. I am even less certain two large pictures (one mislabeled) of that missal, not being celebrated anywhere, are a more appropriate graphic for an article about the WR than a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner (which [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&curid=838&diff=80850&oldid=80847 chrisg deleted in favor of the OSRM]). What's being "sourced" and "de-sourced" there?''

1. Holyrood is not a monastery proper: it's a hermitage. Further, it is not listed on the ROCOR official directory. http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/wujood.cgi

2. The fact that Fr Michael travels about and liturgizes means nothing.

3. According to Fr Aidan's [http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2008/10/good-news-for-sarum-use-of-roman-rite.html press release] (which I assume was blessed by his Metropolitan) I assume he has the same liturgical rights as Fr Michael. Further, it states very clearly what Fr Aidan can do.

4. Fr Michael does in fact utilize a house chapel. It's [http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/images/aa-StPetrocChapel.jpg right here.] It appears to be a walk-in closet.

5. You seem to misunderstand the value of the OSRM to the wiki. It has historical value as a translation of a text most closely that of a pre-schism Western usage in English. It's not because of its use. It's because of its uniqueness in modern Orthodox history; and this is why it repeatedly sells for five times over its price on ebay, even though many texts in [http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html Fr Aidan's work are available online free].

6. Finally, I have nothing against having a picture of Fr Alexander Turner. I think it should replace the fon-du-lac circus. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:15, February 18, 2009 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators

2009-02-18T00:52:24Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Responding to this attempt at self-defense */

OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators

2009-02-18T00:41:24Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Responding to this attempt at self-defense */

{| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE"
|-
| style="font-size: 100%" |
'''If you are here to appeal a warning issued by a sysop''', be sure first to read carefully over the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]] to see if you have in fact violated it.

If you feel that you have not violated the policy, then you may post an appeal here to ask other sysops (not the one who issued the warning) to review the act and possibly reverse the decision. The sysop who issued the warning may defend his doing so in the discussion, but he is not hearing the appeal.

To post an appeal, do so by clicking the '''+''' at the top of this page (next to the '''edit''' tab) and including a brief subject line, so that your appeal will have its own section for discussion. In the main body, please describe why you feel that your behavior was not a violation of official policy.

Please note: '''Whether or not someone else "deserves" to be warned or banned is irrelevant in your appeal.''' The only issue at hand is your own behavior.

As per the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]], once three sysops have examined the appeal and voted, a majority of votes either in favor or against overturning it decides the case.

Thanks!
|}

== Liturgy of St. Tikhon Page Needs Moderating ==

As you can see, a poster who goes by [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User:Fr_Lev "Fr Lev"] has started another [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history "edit war"] on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon page. He has also started a long, self-contradictory explanation on its [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow Talk page], and I, probably unwisely, tried to respond to give a rationale for my edits to the moderators. This same poster waged three similar efforts against me this February 12-14 on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history Liturgy of St. Tikhon], the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history Liturgy of St. Gregory], and the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history main Western Rite] pages (and got at least one of them locked). He throws fits anytime anyone corrects his articles, accusing them of "personal animus" (see [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Misinformation here] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#ANSWER here]) or says they are [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Precisions_for_fr_Lev "being silly"].

I have '''not''' undone his latest reversion-of-a-reversion (the second in 24 hours), because Fr. Andrew [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection specifically warned] this poster the last time this happened, "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned." I will not restore accurate information at this time, but I've given the reasons I think it should be. I just don't want to be accused of participating in this nonsense, which is why I'm calling in "the adults." :)

I'd appreciate it if accurate, non-POV edits were not constantly replaced with inaccurate, misleading statements (which seem to serve an agenda) in endless edit wars. And we'd all appreciate it if we could go on contributing here without malicious charges of personal attacks. It's wearying. I'd appreciate if one of you could step in. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:18, June 27, 2008 (UTC)

: My responses are noted on your [[User talk:Willibrord|talk page]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Come back, directory pages! ==

Crud. I didn't know these were going away, and I was quite baffled just now when I tried to search for them and couldn't find any.

It was very nice to have all the various jurisdictions on one page. I just used the Oklahoma page myself a couple months ago when we were in Tulsa and wanted to find a nearby parish.

I took a look at OrthodoxyInAmerica.org, but just in Missouri I can see that some information is out-of-date, and the "Please allow three to four weeks for your submission to be processed" on the add/modify/delete page isn't encouraging at all. The correction form is also annoyingly long if all you want to do is correct a misspelling or change the priest's name.

Even if the directory pages here get out of date, it's far easier to edit and fix them, and many of us were happy to do so. I would like to vote that they be brought back. {{unsigned|Kyralessa}}

: If you think stuff on the OIA site tends to be out of date, it was worse here! (Especially because we were constantly having to fend off various non-SCOBA types, etc.) In any event, perhaps this might make a good project for [[osource:Main Page|OrthodoxSource]]. It's not really appropriate for an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:27, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

:Hmm... I agree that the content was worthwhile, and I also recognize why Fr. Andrew wants to keep it out of the "encyclopedia." It's not really the intention of OrthodoxSource, but we could move it over there... Or put it on another site. But, like he says... someone needs to moderate it. For my part, I'm not *too* opposed to its being on here. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

:I wholeheartedly agree with Kyralessa: I too was baffled to see that the directory pages were gone, and think that deleting them wasn't a very good idea. I personally have submitted ''numerous'' corrections to Orthodoxy in America using their interminable form (duplicate entries, misspellings, non-existent parishes, new parishes and missions, new websites and email addresses, etc.) which have never made it to the database; here, it was only a matter of going to the page and editing it. And for whatever it's worth the OW parish listings that I saw were, on the whole, more accurate than those in OIA (but of course, I did not see them all). I do understand the problem to which Fr Andrew refers above and appreciate how hard it would be to implement a solution, but it's really a shame that this very useful and easily editable resource had to go. If the pages are reinstated here or recreated elsewhere and help is needed to monitor them, I'll be more than glad to help in any way I can. --[[User:Voxstefani|Esteban]] 08:26, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::The plus side of the directories was that they invited folks to join OrthodoxWiki just to fix the inaccurate listings that they had knowledge of. The negative side was that it was a enormous maintenance task to keep them standardized let alone accurate. (I myself liked them just for the links to the local parish websites.) But if we do bring them back, we may need to put a disclaimer, on each one of them, warning that they are only maintained by users and nothing is guaranteed. - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 16:05, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::If my voice counts, I'd like to speak in favor of returning USA parish directory pages to Orthodox Wiki. Like some other people here, I've been having problems with orthodoxyinamerica. Their claimed response time (three to four weeks) is simply unacceptable, but the worst thing is - some submissions don't even get processed. My parish has recently moved from one city to another, and I've just submitted a listing update to OIA, but I'm not too optimistic about them updating it soon. --[[User:Alexei Kojenov|Alexei Kojenov]] 18:17, October 11, 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks everyone for your feedback. I totally agree that a good pan-Orthodox directory of Churches is needed... I think this might not be the place... but let me see about getting something up soon :-). — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

::Actually, have you seen the Parish Directory at [http://scoba.us scoba.us]? It's slightly out of date, and could contain more information, but it's decent and has nice maps. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

== Appeal of Fr. Andrew's Inequitable Treatment ==

Fr. Andrew issued an official warning to me over the [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]] page. I feel his actions represent highly inequitable treatment, arbitrary standards, and partiality in implementation of the rules. He acknowledged that the statements in question were ''not'' actually offensive (I quote: "no one of your comments recently has been above the top") but issued one anyway. However, his entire comment, [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b#Some_straightforward_facts found here], is misleading.

The warning came over the Talk page for St. Tikhon's Liturgy, the longest talk page on OrthodoxWiki and one of the most contentious. The discussion centered on an edit war a poster who goes by the ID "Fr Lev" instigated. He did the same to [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history several] of my [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history articles] between [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history Feb. 12-14] of this year, getting at least one "Protected" as a result.

As I [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:ASDamick#The_Reason_You_Make_the_Big_Bucks explained on Fr. Andrew's discussion page], the last time this poster started an edit war [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection Fr. Andrew, acting as a moderator, wrote], "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period." I made an edit to the St. Tikhon's Liturgy page and saw this poster immediately revert it. I reverted this article [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history once], and he again immediately reverted it. When I saw this poster was again determined to continually revert to a previous edit, ''I left his version up'' and alerted Fr. Andrew I was ''not'' going to engage in an edit war but would abide by a moderator's decision. Pistevo moved in and moderated that poster's objections; I think the moderator would testify I proved more than willing to cite sources and answer objections with verifiable facts. (Perusing the gargantuan archives of that Talk Page would prove that. Note: The discussions were not written chronologically, and since comments were split up, not all were signed -- making it somewhat hard to follow.) Ultimately, Pistevo agreed I had proven my point from third party sources.

At essentially that point, Fr. Andrew upbraided me for allegedly not referring to third party sources on a specific point (I had cited them) and furthering an edit war (see above).

He then issued a warning for allegedly refusing "to engage the arguments without attacking those making them." I think the substantive refutation of those arguments in the 80K talk page belies that. Moreover, the argument he warned me over, which he acknowledged was not ''actually'' objectionable in any way (!), was directed at that poster's ''argument'', not at ''him''; I did (and do) find his argument repetitive, semantical, and in error. However, '''it is far from even-handed treatment''' that Fr. Andrew warned me, much less only me, for behavior he did not find objectionable and which the other poster had done much more than I could dream of. Although I am not quick to claim offense, you'll verify in the Talk Archives ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1a archives 1a] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b 1b]) that this poster has repeatedly used ''ad hominem'' attacks against me, writing that I am someone who "wishes to pretend" my edits were true and have made "an attempt to confuse" your readers about the matter ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior '''''both implying bad faith and imputing a hidden agenda''''']). In his rhetorical first-strikes, he's asserted I have made "false claims" and spread "misinformation" (try counting the number of times he used that word on that Talk page) through "misrepresentations" and "personal invective" (and then accused me of making statements I had not made). He wrote that I believe Met. PHILIP "is acting 'in ignorance or malice'" (!) My words are "silly"; "silly, incoherent, and demonstrably false." And you'll notice [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow#Misinformation_continues who used the term Fr. Andrew referenced in his official warning as allegedly offensive, "puzzling," first].

1. Fr. Andrew acknowledged in his message my words DID NOT go "over the top" and violate any standard. Thus, there is no ''habeas corpus'' here, if you wish. This seems to allow moderators to discipline people whenever they feel like it, reason or no reason. C.S. Lewis eloquently addressed the notion of [http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment], that we should punish others, not because they actually violate rules, but to deter them somehow. If no standard was broken, as Fr. Andrew admits, '''no punishment is in order'''.
2. If the mild comments he cited did violate the rules, the other poster's comments to which they responded did so far more. Yet I alone got reprimanded (and blamed for an "edit war" in return for following Fr. Andrew's instructions, as well). This implies partiality or a sliding scale of discipline.

'''This is not equitable'''. I request that the moderators rescind said warning, send this poster an equal official warning, or (preferably) both. -[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:31, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

I should add, Fr. Andrew did not follow through on his threat to ban that poster for conducting another edit war, either. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:32, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

: I fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. Fr. Andrew is not just an admin here, but more importantly an Orthodox priest entrusted with the Holy Mysteries. Yours in Christ, --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 16:11, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

::I also fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. I fail to see how a first warning is "punishment." A warning does not have to be "equitable." (I also fail to see how "(preferably) both" rescinding your warning while sending Fr Lev "an equal official warning" would be "equitable.") —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 17:29, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

:I have watched the by-play on the St Tikhon's Liturgy article. I am not knowledgeable about the liturgy and thus can't comment on it. But, I find the back and forth much like a "playground" dispute that a teacher is mediating and trying to end. As far as "punishments" a teacher can only treat the protagonists as they argue - thus the "punishments" can be "unequal". I don't find Fr. Andrew's comments out of order as the discussion seems to be a "he did it - no he did it." Let's be adults! Or are we getting into another "iota" argument. The 'big' one has lasted some 15 centuries. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 20:34, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

While I am not an administrator-- as someone who received a warning for an edit war from Father Andrew on a related topic and around the same time (which I have not formally disputed and will not because I was in the wrong), I also support Fr Andrew's moderation, as such warnings are applied not based on partisanship, but basic common sense. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:55, August 20, 2008 (UTC)
::The way I see this, [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Appeals|the appeals policy]] is [[User:Willibrord]] has posted an appeal of a warning here, and a panel of the first three sysops have volunteered by way of replies. It seems that they agree with the warning, so is there any thing else? - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 15:52, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::: Nope. Case closed, as per the policy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 17:21, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::::A warning to the other poster would have been an act of mercy; had Fr. Andrew followed through with his own threat, he would have banned that poster for starting another edit war.
::::The back-and-forth was not a playground thing but a case where I ''called in'' a moderator to forestall that poster’s edit war, confident I could prove my case with third-party documentation to a moderator’s satisfaction. And I did.
::::I disagree with the reasoning here: Orthodox don't believe in priestly infallibility; he acknowledged no rule had been violated; and rules by definition should apply equally. But I'll abide by your decision.
::::I'm not sure when Joseph Suaiden became an admin. This seems to indicate he's merely following me around the board.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:28, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::: 1. As I said in my comments, it was not any one of your remarks, but the preponderance of them together and the clear spirit which they convey, which I regarded as over the line. That I happen to be a priest has nothing to do with it, really. The panel of admins which volunteered to hear your appeal does, though.

::::: 2. I did not feel that Fr. Lev violated the disciplinary policy since it was put in place, but you did. (The warning was in response to posts by you ''after'' the policy was put in place. We won't retroactively enforce it.) In any event, whether he gets warned, banned, or whatever else. To put it bluntly: you're not an administrator, so you don't get to decide.

::::: 3. Joseph Suaiden is not an admin, but it doesn't surprise me that he's watching this particular page. (Of course, many editors simply watch [[Special:Recentchanges]].) It wouldn't surprise me that any editor does so. His comments on your receiving a warning are about as relevant as yours on Fr. Lev.

::::: 4. You clearly disagree with how things are run here. You have two options: either work with the administration or stop editing. The apparent (mind you, I don't know the state of your heart) hostility isn't going to get you much of anywhere. I suggest taking a wiki-break or perhaps working on some articles which don't stir up such controversy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:34, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::::All the quotations from Fr. Lev I reproduce above, from the St. Tikhon Liturgy Talk page -- including those imputing a hidden agenda and assuming bad faith -- occurred '''after''' this policy was instituted ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy&action=history May 29, if I'm reading correctly]). You can verify that [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&limit=250&action=history here]. Unless you feel the words I quote above do not violate this policy, and my milder words do, the implementation of this policy was not even-handed.
::::::Miscommunication often comes from divining a "clear spirit" rather than reading someone's words themselves. Anyway, my disagreement was on your particular handling of this situation, and I agreed to abide by the decision here. And I've already moved on. But I do not feel this was equitable implementation. If you were under the impression his words were before the policy was implemented, you were mistaken.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:24, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

== The problem moves to the Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Since the Liturgy of St Tikhon page is locked and Willibrord has lost his appeal of the warning, he has now moved on to the Liturgy of St Gregory page and removed the reference to the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', even though the entry as it stood said most AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal''. But since (1) some AWRV parishes do use the SASB; (2) the SASB is published by the Antiochian Archdiocese; and (3) the SASB contains a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP identifying the contents of the SASB as authorized liturgies for the Archdiocese, Willibrord's edit seems to be another attempt to edit the article not according to the facts but according to his personal preference of service book. I will refrain from changing the edit; however, I do think that in a straightforward case like this, such editing amounts to propaganda and should not be permitted. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:29, August 22, 2008 (UTC)
:Nope, Pistevo has ruled the OM/SASB issue is settled in favor of the SASB. Thus, this correct information was posted elsewhere in place of inaccurate information. If there's a problem, it's a refusal to abide by her ruling.
:I am most tired of these polemical attacks on everything I write. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:03, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:: Just for reference, [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]] is male. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:37, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:::What's the emoticon for "I'm so embarrassed"? Like I was I saying above, assumptions.... --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:26, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::If memory serves, :-$ - and for what it's worth, you're the second person on here to assume that...are people trying to tell me something? :P — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 02:03, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

:::::It's your gentle Christian manner. :-) A thousand pardons (asked with crimson face). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 13:54, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

== Moderation needed on Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Willibrord has again changed the Liturgy of St Gregory page, this time making the flase claim that the ''Orthodox Missa''l contains the "only" authorized text of the liturgy. The SASB, published a year '''after''' the ''Orthodox Missal'', was published by the Antiochian Archdiocese with a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP referring to it as "authorized" liturgies. The SASB is used by at least some AWRV parishes. To claim that the OM is the "only" authorized text betrays an interest in promoting something other than the facts. This matter is not settled. Neither Pistevo nor a subdeacon's thesis trumps the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese. IS Willibrod claiming that the SASB was not published by the Antiochian Archdioces? Is he claiming that the letter from Metropolitan PHILIP is a forgery, or that the Metropolitan doesn't have the authority to make such an authorization? Is he claiming that the AWRV parishes that use the SASB are using "unauthorized" liturgies in defiance of the Metropolitan? These are not matters of opinion; these are simple, straightforward, matters of fact. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:15, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

:As noted above, Pistevo (he of the male sex!) has settled the question of OM vs. SASB authorization on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=edit&section=1 Liturgy of St. Tikhon Talk page]. This is a straightforward matter of fact. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:07, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

== Guess What Needs Moderating Again? ==

Yep, it's the [[Western Rite]] page. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" PR squad seems intent on raiding the board. Take a look. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:42, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For once we agree. Since I am being falsely accused (what's new) of being part of this 'squad' when I am trying to just keep the article from becoming slanted, I want moderation there as well.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I'd like to make clear that what Willibrord is doing is at least indirectly in violation of OW policy (Agendas), and I'd like to bring it to your attention.

If I kept a public blog where I repeatedly referred to someone's clerical title in quotes (say I didn't like Father Benjamin Johnson and so I wrote a bunch of articles referring to him as "Father" Benjamin Johnson), would I be an objective person to discuss concerning this individual on a Wiki? Probably not. By deleting any reference to the liturgical work of someone who's made a real impact on the acceptability of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy, the Wiki is being done a disservice. Since I've already gotten a warning on it, I may as well speak freely. Am I wrong in assuming that Fr Aidan should be off-limits for Willibrord?

I won't even discuss Willibrord's "contributions" on the Liturgy of St Tikhon, since others do anyway. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:41, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

: What [[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] does on his own weblog is not OW's business, unless he chooses to import its contents or agenda here.

: In any event, I'm not sure what the Agenda is (perhaps you can tell us). Is it that all of Fr. Aidan's work is being systematically de-referenced on the wiki? From what I can tell, his publications are worthy of mention and have made a notable enough impact to warrant their inclusion as reference in WR-related material on OW. If that is indeed the Agenda, it needs to be cut out immediately.

: And could someone please explain to me why it is that the WR articles always seem to draw such contentiousness? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::Well, it is one of the few areas of conscious development in contemporary Orthodox liturgics... building from that, it may be easy to see a crossover from Eastern liturgics which (for various reasons, better or worse) have been set in stone and earmarked under 'unchangeable', when Western liturgics is, while liturgics, obviously not set in stone... both mere possibilities, of course - but, at the very least, a definite image problem. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 14:12, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

I submit that is precisely the agenda, and that a review of edits as well as condescending statements (referring to the OSRM as "authorized for use in a room in his sister's house", for example, when Holyrood house, Christminster, St Petroc and their work--all places he for some reason *doesn't mind*-- are apartment chapels) can be submitted as proof. The pattern is obvious when you look at any mention of Father Aidan or the "Old Sarum rite missal".

Again, I agree with you on the putting up a private website-- normally. But searching for "Keller" on the blog establishes in this case -- the 'why' to the 'what' of the edits.

In my opinion WR stuff is so contentious because since we are supposed to be the small minority of the West people think they are supposed to put on airs. We're so few that we tend to get louder to be heard. That and Sarum is touchy for obvious political reasons, --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:05, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

:Sigh, I suppose I have to answer this....

:'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me.

:'''As to the substance of the complaint''':
:I specifically refrained from removing the text's reference to the "Old Sarum Rite Missal," [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22|stating]], "Since I was [[User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism|falsely accused]] of 'vandalism' for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own." (More about that below.) The agenda has, in fact, been the reverse: to "source" certain materials as often as possible to make themselves appear more important than they are.

:The fact that Holyrood Monastery and St. Petroc's Monastery are small monasteries is immaterial; they are exclusively WR monasteries that celebrate a full cycle of Western Rite services, including WR hours and Mass/Liturgy. At St. Petroc, Sunday services are held at an associated church, not a home chapel. St. Petroc has a number of associated chapels, at least one sister mission (run by Fr. Barry Jeffries), and Fr. Michael celebrates WR liturgy on at least two continents each year. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is not being celebrated anywhere within Orthodoxy to my knowledge, not even the Eastern or Western Archdioceses of the Milan Synod. Met. HILARION reportedly allowed its author to pray his translation of Sarum (presumably the hours?) for his private, home prayers, not in public (where he serves a Byzantine church). I'm not sure that is relevant to Western Rite "Congregations"; frankly, bishops allow priests to pray all sorts of things privately. I am even less certain two large pictures (one mislabeled) of that missal, not being celebrated anywhere, are a more appropriate graphic for an article about the WR than a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner (which [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&curid=838&diff=80850&oldid=80847 chrisg deleted in favor of the OSRM]). What's being "sourced" and "de-sourced" there?

:The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."

:The thrust of the last two days' edits have been to introduce material that sure seems off-topic, give it a place of prominence not in keeping with reality (e.g., its not being celebrated publicly, or at all), and to contradict sourced statements with unsourced statements, which happen to exalt the Milan Synod, of which Mr. Suaiden is a member (or a Reader).

:I hope this closes the hate-Ben-Johnson portion of the week, and the moderators -- having heard the evidence -- will green light sourced statements over unsourced ones. Then I can write about something I enjoy (the WR) not something I do not enjoy writing about (me). And maybe OW can return to its purpose of presenting well-written, factually correct articles, not assaulting its authors.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:06, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

::Alright, some things that I can see that are able to be resolved.
::If it's not feasibly able to be attended by members of the public (i.e. if it's not advertised), it's not a church, it's private prayer.
::That doesn't stop that usage from being an approved usage.
::Blogs - and, whatever else you do on your own time - are neither here nor there. We're all about the articles. While a side tangent into why a person thinks the way they do is often amusing, it invariably snaps either into bowdlerism or ad hominem.
::If there's a source, the line stays, particularly in an article so desperately requiring sources. That seems a fairly useful rule. Really, as far as hedging goes, counter-sources merely introduce a 'so-and-so claims that (text) (source)'. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 22:34, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

== Responding to this attempt at self-defense ==

Fr Benjamin asserts--

''"'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me."''

'''This is mainly non-sequitur'''. We could probably go on all day about our last year or so, but it is largely immaterial. (I shall explain why shortly.) The origin of my site was a direct response to a letter that was sent from Fr Benjamin attacking the mental stability of myself (and my wife, who had nothing to do with him) as well as a number of broad claims. Over time, and getting to know others in the vicariate I felt that calling the whole vicariate a fraud just because of YOUR predilection towards Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism was in fact NOT as common in the AWRV as I had initially thought. Thus, I had taken down the original attacking blog (located at bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com) and created a friendlier site at (westernorthodoxchristian.blogspot.com). I didn't even realize those sites were still up, and so thank you for noticing. I've deleted them.

I realized that the desire for Western Orthodox tradition was cross-jurisdictional, as was residual Popery and Protestantism.

Further, I don't know ChrisG at all.

'''That said, however, my direct response to you after you attacked my family in the hope of finding "Western Rite Critic"''' ''pales in comparison to your years-long obsession with Fr Aidan'', going so far as to keep him (albeit temporarily in retrospect) from being taken in by the ROCOR--in 2004. My issues on my websites were a few months old, and I realized my wrong. By contrast you are still very much interested in destroying Father Aidan's work.

Further, I was invited to OrthodoxWiki to help on Old Calendarists, and I freely contribute in a number of places. I am curious as to what your contribution/deletion ratio is. Many of your contributions are edit-wars.

He then states--

'':"The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."''

'''It's not unclear at all.''' Fr Cuthbert-cum-David was and is using the texts of the Medieval Monastic Psalter. Strangely, he has suddenly become interested publicly in the Overbeck recension... so the text of his ordinary may change. Perhaps he lacks one; as the MMP contains much of the Ordinary to begin with. I didn't suggest removing Holyrood at all, but references as to a use of which we are yet uncertain (and based on dialogue on the [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/14419 Occidentalis list], it may be "under development"). And Holyrood doesn't "house two hieromonks" I am aware of. You may now claim Fr Augustine (Whitfield) as ROCOR, but he lives in an aged home, not with Fr Cuthbert (or David).

Note-- Don't try to cover up an agenda by claiming I have one.

P.S. I've already commented on you and Ari Adams working with each other to push a common agenda on this Wiki. What do the other posters have in common with each other, and why are you fighting them too? FrLev, don't know him. But a war you had. Same with ChrisG. Am I responsible for those too? --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:12, February 18, 2009 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators

2009-02-18T00:31:10Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Responding to this attempt at self-defense */

{| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE"
|-
| style="font-size: 100%" |
'''If you are here to appeal a warning issued by a sysop''', be sure first to read carefully over the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]] to see if you have in fact violated it.

If you feel that you have not violated the policy, then you may post an appeal here to ask other sysops (not the one who issued the warning) to review the act and possibly reverse the decision. The sysop who issued the warning may defend his doing so in the discussion, but he is not hearing the appeal.

To post an appeal, do so by clicking the '''+''' at the top of this page (next to the '''edit''' tab) and including a brief subject line, so that your appeal will have its own section for discussion. In the main body, please describe why you feel that your behavior was not a violation of official policy.

Please note: '''Whether or not someone else "deserves" to be warned or banned is irrelevant in your appeal.''' The only issue at hand is your own behavior.

As per the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]], once three sysops have examined the appeal and voted, a majority of votes either in favor or against overturning it decides the case.

Thanks!
|}

== Liturgy of St. Tikhon Page Needs Moderating ==

As you can see, a poster who goes by [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User:Fr_Lev "Fr Lev"] has started another [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history "edit war"] on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon page. He has also started a long, self-contradictory explanation on its [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow Talk page], and I, probably unwisely, tried to respond to give a rationale for my edits to the moderators. This same poster waged three similar efforts against me this February 12-14 on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history Liturgy of St. Tikhon], the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history Liturgy of St. Gregory], and the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history main Western Rite] pages (and got at least one of them locked). He throws fits anytime anyone corrects his articles, accusing them of "personal animus" (see [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Misinformation here] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#ANSWER here]) or says they are [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Precisions_for_fr_Lev "being silly"].

I have '''not''' undone his latest reversion-of-a-reversion (the second in 24 hours), because Fr. Andrew [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection specifically warned] this poster the last time this happened, "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned." I will not restore accurate information at this time, but I've given the reasons I think it should be. I just don't want to be accused of participating in this nonsense, which is why I'm calling in "the adults." :)

I'd appreciate it if accurate, non-POV edits were not constantly replaced with inaccurate, misleading statements (which seem to serve an agenda) in endless edit wars. And we'd all appreciate it if we could go on contributing here without malicious charges of personal attacks. It's wearying. I'd appreciate if one of you could step in. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:18, June 27, 2008 (UTC)

: My responses are noted on your [[User talk:Willibrord|talk page]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Come back, directory pages! ==

Crud. I didn't know these were going away, and I was quite baffled just now when I tried to search for them and couldn't find any.

It was very nice to have all the various jurisdictions on one page. I just used the Oklahoma page myself a couple months ago when we were in Tulsa and wanted to find a nearby parish.

I took a look at OrthodoxyInAmerica.org, but just in Missouri I can see that some information is out-of-date, and the "Please allow three to four weeks for your submission to be processed" on the add/modify/delete page isn't encouraging at all. The correction form is also annoyingly long if all you want to do is correct a misspelling or change the priest's name.

Even if the directory pages here get out of date, it's far easier to edit and fix them, and many of us were happy to do so. I would like to vote that they be brought back. {{unsigned|Kyralessa}}

: If you think stuff on the OIA site tends to be out of date, it was worse here! (Especially because we were constantly having to fend off various non-SCOBA types, etc.) In any event, perhaps this might make a good project for [[osource:Main Page|OrthodoxSource]]. It's not really appropriate for an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:27, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

:Hmm... I agree that the content was worthwhile, and I also recognize why Fr. Andrew wants to keep it out of the "encyclopedia." It's not really the intention of OrthodoxSource, but we could move it over there... Or put it on another site. But, like he says... someone needs to moderate it. For my part, I'm not *too* opposed to its being on here. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

:I wholeheartedly agree with Kyralessa: I too was baffled to see that the directory pages were gone, and think that deleting them wasn't a very good idea. I personally have submitted ''numerous'' corrections to Orthodoxy in America using their interminable form (duplicate entries, misspellings, non-existent parishes, new parishes and missions, new websites and email addresses, etc.) which have never made it to the database; here, it was only a matter of going to the page and editing it. And for whatever it's worth the OW parish listings that I saw were, on the whole, more accurate than those in OIA (but of course, I did not see them all). I do understand the problem to which Fr Andrew refers above and appreciate how hard it would be to implement a solution, but it's really a shame that this very useful and easily editable resource had to go. If the pages are reinstated here or recreated elsewhere and help is needed to monitor them, I'll be more than glad to help in any way I can. --[[User:Voxstefani|Esteban]] 08:26, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::The plus side of the directories was that they invited folks to join OrthodoxWiki just to fix the inaccurate listings that they had knowledge of. The negative side was that it was a enormous maintenance task to keep them standardized let alone accurate. (I myself liked them just for the links to the local parish websites.) But if we do bring them back, we may need to put a disclaimer, on each one of them, warning that they are only maintained by users and nothing is guaranteed. - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 16:05, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::If my voice counts, I'd like to speak in favor of returning USA parish directory pages to Orthodox Wiki. Like some other people here, I've been having problems with orthodoxyinamerica. Their claimed response time (three to four weeks) is simply unacceptable, but the worst thing is - some submissions don't even get processed. My parish has recently moved from one city to another, and I've just submitted a listing update to OIA, but I'm not too optimistic about them updating it soon. --[[User:Alexei Kojenov|Alexei Kojenov]] 18:17, October 11, 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks everyone for your feedback. I totally agree that a good pan-Orthodox directory of Churches is needed... I think this might not be the place... but let me see about getting something up soon :-). — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

::Actually, have you seen the Parish Directory at [http://scoba.us scoba.us]? It's slightly out of date, and could contain more information, but it's decent and has nice maps. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

== Appeal of Fr. Andrew's Inequitable Treatment ==

Fr. Andrew issued an official warning to me over the [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]] page. I feel his actions represent highly inequitable treatment, arbitrary standards, and partiality in implementation of the rules. He acknowledged that the statements in question were ''not'' actually offensive (I quote: "no one of your comments recently has been above the top") but issued one anyway. However, his entire comment, [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b#Some_straightforward_facts found here], is misleading.

The warning came over the Talk page for St. Tikhon's Liturgy, the longest talk page on OrthodoxWiki and one of the most contentious. The discussion centered on an edit war a poster who goes by the ID "Fr Lev" instigated. He did the same to [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history several] of my [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history articles] between [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history Feb. 12-14] of this year, getting at least one "Protected" as a result.

As I [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:ASDamick#The_Reason_You_Make_the_Big_Bucks explained on Fr. Andrew's discussion page], the last time this poster started an edit war [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection Fr. Andrew, acting as a moderator, wrote], "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period." I made an edit to the St. Tikhon's Liturgy page and saw this poster immediately revert it. I reverted this article [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history once], and he again immediately reverted it. When I saw this poster was again determined to continually revert to a previous edit, ''I left his version up'' and alerted Fr. Andrew I was ''not'' going to engage in an edit war but would abide by a moderator's decision. Pistevo moved in and moderated that poster's objections; I think the moderator would testify I proved more than willing to cite sources and answer objections with verifiable facts. (Perusing the gargantuan archives of that Talk Page would prove that. Note: The discussions were not written chronologically, and since comments were split up, not all were signed -- making it somewhat hard to follow.) Ultimately, Pistevo agreed I had proven my point from third party sources.

At essentially that point, Fr. Andrew upbraided me for allegedly not referring to third party sources on a specific point (I had cited them) and furthering an edit war (see above).

He then issued a warning for allegedly refusing "to engage the arguments without attacking those making them." I think the substantive refutation of those arguments in the 80K talk page belies that. Moreover, the argument he warned me over, which he acknowledged was not ''actually'' objectionable in any way (!), was directed at that poster's ''argument'', not at ''him''; I did (and do) find his argument repetitive, semantical, and in error. However, '''it is far from even-handed treatment''' that Fr. Andrew warned me, much less only me, for behavior he did not find objectionable and which the other poster had done much more than I could dream of. Although I am not quick to claim offense, you'll verify in the Talk Archives ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1a archives 1a] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b 1b]) that this poster has repeatedly used ''ad hominem'' attacks against me, writing that I am someone who "wishes to pretend" my edits were true and have made "an attempt to confuse" your readers about the matter ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior '''''both implying bad faith and imputing a hidden agenda''''']). In his rhetorical first-strikes, he's asserted I have made "false claims" and spread "misinformation" (try counting the number of times he used that word on that Talk page) through "misrepresentations" and "personal invective" (and then accused me of making statements I had not made). He wrote that I believe Met. PHILIP "is acting 'in ignorance or malice'" (!) My words are "silly"; "silly, incoherent, and demonstrably false." And you'll notice [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow#Misinformation_continues who used the term Fr. Andrew referenced in his official warning as allegedly offensive, "puzzling," first].

1. Fr. Andrew acknowledged in his message my words DID NOT go "over the top" and violate any standard. Thus, there is no ''habeas corpus'' here, if you wish. This seems to allow moderators to discipline people whenever they feel like it, reason or no reason. C.S. Lewis eloquently addressed the notion of [http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment], that we should punish others, not because they actually violate rules, but to deter them somehow. If no standard was broken, as Fr. Andrew admits, '''no punishment is in order'''.
2. If the mild comments he cited did violate the rules, the other poster's comments to which they responded did so far more. Yet I alone got reprimanded (and blamed for an "edit war" in return for following Fr. Andrew's instructions, as well). This implies partiality or a sliding scale of discipline.

'''This is not equitable'''. I request that the moderators rescind said warning, send this poster an equal official warning, or (preferably) both. -[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:31, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

I should add, Fr. Andrew did not follow through on his threat to ban that poster for conducting another edit war, either. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:32, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

: I fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. Fr. Andrew is not just an admin here, but more importantly an Orthodox priest entrusted with the Holy Mysteries. Yours in Christ, --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 16:11, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

::I also fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. I fail to see how a first warning is "punishment." A warning does not have to be "equitable." (I also fail to see how "(preferably) both" rescinding your warning while sending Fr Lev "an equal official warning" would be "equitable.") —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 17:29, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

:I have watched the by-play on the St Tikhon's Liturgy article. I am not knowledgeable about the liturgy and thus can't comment on it. But, I find the back and forth much like a "playground" dispute that a teacher is mediating and trying to end. As far as "punishments" a teacher can only treat the protagonists as they argue - thus the "punishments" can be "unequal". I don't find Fr. Andrew's comments out of order as the discussion seems to be a "he did it - no he did it." Let's be adults! Or are we getting into another "iota" argument. The 'big' one has lasted some 15 centuries. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 20:34, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

While I am not an administrator-- as someone who received a warning for an edit war from Father Andrew on a related topic and around the same time (which I have not formally disputed and will not because I was in the wrong), I also support Fr Andrew's moderation, as such warnings are applied not based on partisanship, but basic common sense. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:55, August 20, 2008 (UTC)
::The way I see this, [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Appeals|the appeals policy]] is [[User:Willibrord]] has posted an appeal of a warning here, and a panel of the first three sysops have volunteered by way of replies. It seems that they agree with the warning, so is there any thing else? - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 15:52, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::: Nope. Case closed, as per the policy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 17:21, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::::A warning to the other poster would have been an act of mercy; had Fr. Andrew followed through with his own threat, he would have banned that poster for starting another edit war.
::::The back-and-forth was not a playground thing but a case where I ''called in'' a moderator to forestall that poster’s edit war, confident I could prove my case with third-party documentation to a moderator’s satisfaction. And I did.
::::I disagree with the reasoning here: Orthodox don't believe in priestly infallibility; he acknowledged no rule had been violated; and rules by definition should apply equally. But I'll abide by your decision.
::::I'm not sure when Joseph Suaiden became an admin. This seems to indicate he's merely following me around the board.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:28, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::: 1. As I said in my comments, it was not any one of your remarks, but the preponderance of them together and the clear spirit which they convey, which I regarded as over the line. That I happen to be a priest has nothing to do with it, really. The panel of admins which volunteered to hear your appeal does, though.

::::: 2. I did not feel that Fr. Lev violated the disciplinary policy since it was put in place, but you did. (The warning was in response to posts by you ''after'' the policy was put in place. We won't retroactively enforce it.) In any event, whether he gets warned, banned, or whatever else. To put it bluntly: you're not an administrator, so you don't get to decide.

::::: 3. Joseph Suaiden is not an admin, but it doesn't surprise me that he's watching this particular page. (Of course, many editors simply watch [[Special:Recentchanges]].) It wouldn't surprise me that any editor does so. His comments on your receiving a warning are about as relevant as yours on Fr. Lev.

::::: 4. You clearly disagree with how things are run here. You have two options: either work with the administration or stop editing. The apparent (mind you, I don't know the state of your heart) hostility isn't going to get you much of anywhere. I suggest taking a wiki-break or perhaps working on some articles which don't stir up such controversy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:34, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::::All the quotations from Fr. Lev I reproduce above, from the St. Tikhon Liturgy Talk page -- including those imputing a hidden agenda and assuming bad faith -- occurred '''after''' this policy was instituted ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy&action=history May 29, if I'm reading correctly]). You can verify that [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&limit=250&action=history here]. Unless you feel the words I quote above do not violate this policy, and my milder words do, the implementation of this policy was not even-handed.
::::::Miscommunication often comes from divining a "clear spirit" rather than reading someone's words themselves. Anyway, my disagreement was on your particular handling of this situation, and I agreed to abide by the decision here. And I've already moved on. But I do not feel this was equitable implementation. If you were under the impression his words were before the policy was implemented, you were mistaken.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:24, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

== The problem moves to the Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Since the Liturgy of St Tikhon page is locked and Willibrord has lost his appeal of the warning, he has now moved on to the Liturgy of St Gregory page and removed the reference to the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', even though the entry as it stood said most AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal''. But since (1) some AWRV parishes do use the SASB; (2) the SASB is published by the Antiochian Archdiocese; and (3) the SASB contains a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP identifying the contents of the SASB as authorized liturgies for the Archdiocese, Willibrord's edit seems to be another attempt to edit the article not according to the facts but according to his personal preference of service book. I will refrain from changing the edit; however, I do think that in a straightforward case like this, such editing amounts to propaganda and should not be permitted. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:29, August 22, 2008 (UTC)
:Nope, Pistevo has ruled the OM/SASB issue is settled in favor of the SASB. Thus, this correct information was posted elsewhere in place of inaccurate information. If there's a problem, it's a refusal to abide by her ruling.
:I am most tired of these polemical attacks on everything I write. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:03, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:: Just for reference, [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]] is male. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:37, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:::What's the emoticon for "I'm so embarrassed"? Like I was I saying above, assumptions.... --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:26, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::If memory serves, :-$ - and for what it's worth, you're the second person on here to assume that...are people trying to tell me something? :P — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 02:03, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

:::::It's your gentle Christian manner. :-) A thousand pardons (asked with crimson face). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 13:54, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

== Moderation needed on Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Willibrord has again changed the Liturgy of St Gregory page, this time making the flase claim that the ''Orthodox Missa''l contains the "only" authorized text of the liturgy. The SASB, published a year '''after''' the ''Orthodox Missal'', was published by the Antiochian Archdiocese with a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP referring to it as "authorized" liturgies. The SASB is used by at least some AWRV parishes. To claim that the OM is the "only" authorized text betrays an interest in promoting something other than the facts. This matter is not settled. Neither Pistevo nor a subdeacon's thesis trumps the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese. IS Willibrod claiming that the SASB was not published by the Antiochian Archdioces? Is he claiming that the letter from Metropolitan PHILIP is a forgery, or that the Metropolitan doesn't have the authority to make such an authorization? Is he claiming that the AWRV parishes that use the SASB are using "unauthorized" liturgies in defiance of the Metropolitan? These are not matters of opinion; these are simple, straightforward, matters of fact. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:15, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

:As noted above, Pistevo (he of the male sex!) has settled the question of OM vs. SASB authorization on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=edit&section=1 Liturgy of St. Tikhon Talk page]. This is a straightforward matter of fact. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:07, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

== Guess What Needs Moderating Again? ==

Yep, it's the [[Western Rite]] page. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" PR squad seems intent on raiding the board. Take a look. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:42, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For once we agree. Since I am being falsely accused (what's new) of being part of this 'squad' when I am trying to just keep the article from becoming slanted, I want moderation there as well.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I'd like to make clear that what Willibrord is doing is at least indirectly in violation of OW policy (Agendas), and I'd like to bring it to your attention.

If I kept a public blog where I repeatedly referred to someone's clerical title in quotes (say I didn't like Father Benjamin Johnson and so I wrote a bunch of articles referring to him as "Father" Benjamin Johnson), would I be an objective person to discuss concerning this individual on a Wiki? Probably not. By deleting any reference to the liturgical work of someone who's made a real impact on the acceptability of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy, the Wiki is being done a disservice. Since I've already gotten a warning on it, I may as well speak freely. Am I wrong in assuming that Fr Aidan should be off-limits for Willibrord?

I won't even discuss Willibrord's "contributions" on the Liturgy of St Tikhon, since others do anyway. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:41, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

: What [[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] does on his own weblog is not OW's business, unless he chooses to import its contents or agenda here.

: In any event, I'm not sure what the Agenda is (perhaps you can tell us). Is it that all of Fr. Aidan's work is being systematically de-referenced on the wiki? From what I can tell, his publications are worthy of mention and have made a notable enough impact to warrant their inclusion as reference in WR-related material on OW. If that is indeed the Agenda, it needs to be cut out immediately.

: And could someone please explain to me why it is that the WR articles always seem to draw such contentiousness? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::Well, it is one of the few areas of conscious development in contemporary Orthodox liturgics... building from that, it may be easy to see a crossover from Eastern liturgics which (for various reasons, better or worse) have been set in stone and earmarked under 'unchangeable', when Western liturgics is, while liturgics, obviously not set in stone... both mere possibilities, of course - but, at the very least, a definite image problem. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 14:12, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

I submit that is precisely the agenda, and that a review of edits as well as condescending statements (referring to the OSRM as "authorized for use in a room in his sister's house", for example, when Holyrood house, Christminster, St Petroc and their work--all places he for some reason *doesn't mind*-- are apartment chapels) can be submitted as proof. The pattern is obvious when you look at any mention of Father Aidan or the "Old Sarum rite missal".

Again, I agree with you on the putting up a private website-- normally. But searching for "Keller" on the blog establishes in this case -- the 'why' to the 'what' of the edits.

In my opinion WR stuff is so contentious because since we are supposed to be the small minority of the West people think they are supposed to put on airs. We're so few that we tend to get louder to be heard. That and Sarum is touchy for obvious political reasons, --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:05, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

:Sigh, I suppose I have to answer this....

:'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me.

:'''As to the substance of the complaint''':
:I specifically refrained from removing the text's reference to the "Old Sarum Rite Missal," [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22|stating]], "Since I was [[User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism|falsely accused]] of 'vandalism' for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own." (More about that below.) The agenda has, in fact, been the reverse: to "source" certain materials as often as possible to make themselves appear more important than they are.

:The fact that Holyrood Monastery and St. Petroc's Monastery are small monasteries is immaterial; they are exclusively WR monasteries that celebrate a full cycle of Western Rite services, including WR hours and Mass/Liturgy. At St. Petroc, Sunday services are held at an associated church, not a home chapel. St. Petroc has a number of associated chapels, at least one sister mission (run by Fr. Barry Jeffries), and Fr. Michael celebrates WR liturgy on at least two continents each year. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is not being celebrated anywhere within Orthodoxy to my knowledge, not even the Eastern or Western Archdioceses of the Milan Synod. Met. HILARION reportedly allowed its author to pray his translation of Sarum (presumably the hours?) for his private, home prayers, not in public (where he serves a Byzantine church). I'm not sure that is relevant to Western Rite "Congregations"; frankly, bishops allow priests to pray all sorts of things privately. I am even less certain two large pictures (one mislabeled) of that missal, not being celebrated anywhere, are a more appropriate graphic for an article about the WR than a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner (which [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&curid=838&diff=80850&oldid=80847 chrisg deleted in favor of the OSRM]). What's being "sourced" and "de-sourced" there?

:The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."

:The thrust of the last two days' edits have been to introduce material that sure seems off-topic, give it a place of prominence not in keeping with reality (e.g., its not being celebrated publicly, or at all), and to contradict sourced statements with unsourced statements, which happen to exalt the Milan Synod, of which Mr. Suaiden is a member (or a Reader).

:I hope this closes the hate-Ben-Johnson portion of the week, and the moderators -- having heard the evidence -- will green light sourced statements over unsourced ones. Then I can write about something I enjoy (the WR) not something I do not enjoy writing about (me). And maybe OW can return to its purpose of presenting well-written, factually correct articles, not assaulting its authors.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:06, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

::Alright, some things that I can see that are able to be resolved.
::If it's not feasibly able to be attended by members of the public (i.e. if it's not advertised), it's not a church, it's private prayer.
::That doesn't stop that usage from being an approved usage.
::Blogs - and, whatever else you do on your own time - are neither here nor there. We're all about the articles. While a side tangent into why a person thinks the way they do is often amusing, it invariably snaps either into bowdlerism or ad hominem.
::If there's a source, the line stays, particularly in an article so desperately requiring sources. That seems a fairly useful rule. Really, as far as hedging goes, counter-sources merely introduce a 'so-and-so claims that (text) (source)'. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 22:34, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

== Responding to this attempt at self-defense ==

Fr Benjamin asserts--

''"'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me."''

'''This is mainly non-sequitur'''. We could probably go on all day about our last year or so, but it is largely immaterial. (I shall explain why shortly. The origin of my site was a direct response to a letter that was sent from Fr Benjamin attacking the mental stability of myself (and my wife, who had nothing to do with him) as well as a number of broad claims. Over time, and getting to know others in the vicariate I felt that calling the whole vicariate a fraud just because of YOUR predilection towards Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism was in fact NOT as common in the AWRV as I had initially thought. Thus, I had taken down the original attacking blog (located at bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com) and created a friendlier site at (westernorthodoxchristian.blogspot.com). I didn't even realize those sites were still up, and so thank you for noticing. I've deleted them.

I realized that the desire for Western Orthodox tradition was cross-jurisdictional, as was residual Popery and Protestantism.

Further, I don't know ChrisG at all.

'''That said, however, my direct response to you after you attacked my family in the hope of finding "Western Rite Critic"''' ''pales in comparison to your years-long obsession with Fr Aidan'', going so far as to keep him (albeit temporarily in retrospect) from being taken in by the ROCOR--in 2004. My issues on my websites were a few months old, and I realized my wrong. By contrast you are still very much interested in destroying Father Aidan's work.

Further, I was invited to OrthodoxWiki to help on Old Calendarists, and I freely contribute in a number of places. I am curious as to what your contribution/deletion ratio is. Many of your contributions are edit-wars.

He then states--

'':"The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."''

'''It's not unclear at all.''' Fr Cuthbert-cum-David was and is using the texts of the Medieval Monastic Psalter. Strangely, he has suddenly become interested publicly in the Overbeck recension... so the text of his ordinary may change. Perhaps he lacks one; as the MMP contains much of the Ordinary to begin with. I didn't suggest removing Holyrood at all, but references as to a use of which we are yet uncertain (and based on dialogue on the [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/14419|Occidentalist list], it may be "under development"). And Holyrood doesn't "house two hieromonks" I am aware of. You may now claim Fr Augustine (Whitfield) as ROCOR, but he lives in an aged home, not with Fr Cuthbert (or David).

Note-- Don't try to cover up an agenda by claiming I have one.

P.S. I've already commented on you and Ari Adams working with each other to push a common agenda on this Wiki. What do the other posters have in common with each other, and why are you fighting them too? FrLev, don't know him. But a war you had. Same with ChrisG. Am I responsible for those too? --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:12, February 18, 2009 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators

2009-02-18T00:18:15Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Responding to this attempt at self-defense */

{| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE"
|-
| style="font-size: 100%" |
'''If you are here to appeal a warning issued by a sysop''', be sure first to read carefully over the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]] to see if you have in fact violated it.

If you feel that you have not violated the policy, then you may post an appeal here to ask other sysops (not the one who issued the warning) to review the act and possibly reverse the decision. The sysop who issued the warning may defend his doing so in the discussion, but he is not hearing the appeal.

To post an appeal, do so by clicking the '''+''' at the top of this page (next to the '''edit''' tab) and including a brief subject line, so that your appeal will have its own section for discussion. In the main body, please describe why you feel that your behavior was not a violation of official policy.

Please note: '''Whether or not someone else "deserves" to be warned or banned is irrelevant in your appeal.''' The only issue at hand is your own behavior.

As per the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]], once three sysops have examined the appeal and voted, a majority of votes either in favor or against overturning it decides the case.

Thanks!
|}

== Liturgy of St. Tikhon Page Needs Moderating ==

As you can see, a poster who goes by [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User:Fr_Lev "Fr Lev"] has started another [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history "edit war"] on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon page. He has also started a long, self-contradictory explanation on its [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow Talk page], and I, probably unwisely, tried to respond to give a rationale for my edits to the moderators. This same poster waged three similar efforts against me this February 12-14 on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history Liturgy of St. Tikhon], the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history Liturgy of St. Gregory], and the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history main Western Rite] pages (and got at least one of them locked). He throws fits anytime anyone corrects his articles, accusing them of "personal animus" (see [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Misinformation here] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#ANSWER here]) or says they are [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Precisions_for_fr_Lev "being silly"].

I have '''not''' undone his latest reversion-of-a-reversion (the second in 24 hours), because Fr. Andrew [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection specifically warned] this poster the last time this happened, "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned." I will not restore accurate information at this time, but I've given the reasons I think it should be. I just don't want to be accused of participating in this nonsense, which is why I'm calling in "the adults." :)

I'd appreciate it if accurate, non-POV edits were not constantly replaced with inaccurate, misleading statements (which seem to serve an agenda) in endless edit wars. And we'd all appreciate it if we could go on contributing here without malicious charges of personal attacks. It's wearying. I'd appreciate if one of you could step in. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:18, June 27, 2008 (UTC)

: My responses are noted on your [[User talk:Willibrord|talk page]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Come back, directory pages! ==

Crud. I didn't know these were going away, and I was quite baffled just now when I tried to search for them and couldn't find any.

It was very nice to have all the various jurisdictions on one page. I just used the Oklahoma page myself a couple months ago when we were in Tulsa and wanted to find a nearby parish.

I took a look at OrthodoxyInAmerica.org, but just in Missouri I can see that some information is out-of-date, and the "Please allow three to four weeks for your submission to be processed" on the add/modify/delete page isn't encouraging at all. The correction form is also annoyingly long if all you want to do is correct a misspelling or change the priest's name.

Even if the directory pages here get out of date, it's far easier to edit and fix them, and many of us were happy to do so. I would like to vote that they be brought back. {{unsigned|Kyralessa}}

: If you think stuff on the OIA site tends to be out of date, it was worse here! (Especially because we were constantly having to fend off various non-SCOBA types, etc.) In any event, perhaps this might make a good project for [[osource:Main Page|OrthodoxSource]]. It's not really appropriate for an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:27, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

:Hmm... I agree that the content was worthwhile, and I also recognize why Fr. Andrew wants to keep it out of the "encyclopedia." It's not really the intention of OrthodoxSource, but we could move it over there... Or put it on another site. But, like he says... someone needs to moderate it. For my part, I'm not *too* opposed to its being on here. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

:I wholeheartedly agree with Kyralessa: I too was baffled to see that the directory pages were gone, and think that deleting them wasn't a very good idea. I personally have submitted ''numerous'' corrections to Orthodoxy in America using their interminable form (duplicate entries, misspellings, non-existent parishes, new parishes and missions, new websites and email addresses, etc.) which have never made it to the database; here, it was only a matter of going to the page and editing it. And for whatever it's worth the OW parish listings that I saw were, on the whole, more accurate than those in OIA (but of course, I did not see them all). I do understand the problem to which Fr Andrew refers above and appreciate how hard it would be to implement a solution, but it's really a shame that this very useful and easily editable resource had to go. If the pages are reinstated here or recreated elsewhere and help is needed to monitor them, I'll be more than glad to help in any way I can. --[[User:Voxstefani|Esteban]] 08:26, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::The plus side of the directories was that they invited folks to join OrthodoxWiki just to fix the inaccurate listings that they had knowledge of. The negative side was that it was a enormous maintenance task to keep them standardized let alone accurate. (I myself liked them just for the links to the local parish websites.) But if we do bring them back, we may need to put a disclaimer, on each one of them, warning that they are only maintained by users and nothing is guaranteed. - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 16:05, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::If my voice counts, I'd like to speak in favor of returning USA parish directory pages to Orthodox Wiki. Like some other people here, I've been having problems with orthodoxyinamerica. Their claimed response time (three to four weeks) is simply unacceptable, but the worst thing is - some submissions don't even get processed. My parish has recently moved from one city to another, and I've just submitted a listing update to OIA, but I'm not too optimistic about them updating it soon. --[[User:Alexei Kojenov|Alexei Kojenov]] 18:17, October 11, 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks everyone for your feedback. I totally agree that a good pan-Orthodox directory of Churches is needed... I think this might not be the place... but let me see about getting something up soon :-). — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

::Actually, have you seen the Parish Directory at [http://scoba.us scoba.us]? It's slightly out of date, and could contain more information, but it's decent and has nice maps. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

== Appeal of Fr. Andrew's Inequitable Treatment ==

Fr. Andrew issued an official warning to me over the [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]] page. I feel his actions represent highly inequitable treatment, arbitrary standards, and partiality in implementation of the rules. He acknowledged that the statements in question were ''not'' actually offensive (I quote: "no one of your comments recently has been above the top") but issued one anyway. However, his entire comment, [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b#Some_straightforward_facts found here], is misleading.

The warning came over the Talk page for St. Tikhon's Liturgy, the longest talk page on OrthodoxWiki and one of the most contentious. The discussion centered on an edit war a poster who goes by the ID "Fr Lev" instigated. He did the same to [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history several] of my [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history articles] between [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history Feb. 12-14] of this year, getting at least one "Protected" as a result.

As I [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:ASDamick#The_Reason_You_Make_the_Big_Bucks explained on Fr. Andrew's discussion page], the last time this poster started an edit war [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection Fr. Andrew, acting as a moderator, wrote], "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period." I made an edit to the St. Tikhon's Liturgy page and saw this poster immediately revert it. I reverted this article [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history once], and he again immediately reverted it. When I saw this poster was again determined to continually revert to a previous edit, ''I left his version up'' and alerted Fr. Andrew I was ''not'' going to engage in an edit war but would abide by a moderator's decision. Pistevo moved in and moderated that poster's objections; I think the moderator would testify I proved more than willing to cite sources and answer objections with verifiable facts. (Perusing the gargantuan archives of that Talk Page would prove that. Note: The discussions were not written chronologically, and since comments were split up, not all were signed -- making it somewhat hard to follow.) Ultimately, Pistevo agreed I had proven my point from third party sources.

At essentially that point, Fr. Andrew upbraided me for allegedly not referring to third party sources on a specific point (I had cited them) and furthering an edit war (see above).

He then issued a warning for allegedly refusing "to engage the arguments without attacking those making them." I think the substantive refutation of those arguments in the 80K talk page belies that. Moreover, the argument he warned me over, which he acknowledged was not ''actually'' objectionable in any way (!), was directed at that poster's ''argument'', not at ''him''; I did (and do) find his argument repetitive, semantical, and in error. However, '''it is far from even-handed treatment''' that Fr. Andrew warned me, much less only me, for behavior he did not find objectionable and which the other poster had done much more than I could dream of. Although I am not quick to claim offense, you'll verify in the Talk Archives ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1a archives 1a] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b 1b]) that this poster has repeatedly used ''ad hominem'' attacks against me, writing that I am someone who "wishes to pretend" my edits were true and have made "an attempt to confuse" your readers about the matter ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior '''''both implying bad faith and imputing a hidden agenda''''']). In his rhetorical first-strikes, he's asserted I have made "false claims" and spread "misinformation" (try counting the number of times he used that word on that Talk page) through "misrepresentations" and "personal invective" (and then accused me of making statements I had not made). He wrote that I believe Met. PHILIP "is acting 'in ignorance or malice'" (!) My words are "silly"; "silly, incoherent, and demonstrably false." And you'll notice [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow#Misinformation_continues who used the term Fr. Andrew referenced in his official warning as allegedly offensive, "puzzling," first].

1. Fr. Andrew acknowledged in his message my words DID NOT go "over the top" and violate any standard. Thus, there is no ''habeas corpus'' here, if you wish. This seems to allow moderators to discipline people whenever they feel like it, reason or no reason. C.S. Lewis eloquently addressed the notion of [http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment], that we should punish others, not because they actually violate rules, but to deter them somehow. If no standard was broken, as Fr. Andrew admits, '''no punishment is in order'''.
2. If the mild comments he cited did violate the rules, the other poster's comments to which they responded did so far more. Yet I alone got reprimanded (and blamed for an "edit war" in return for following Fr. Andrew's instructions, as well). This implies partiality or a sliding scale of discipline.

'''This is not equitable'''. I request that the moderators rescind said warning, send this poster an equal official warning, or (preferably) both. -[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:31, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

I should add, Fr. Andrew did not follow through on his threat to ban that poster for conducting another edit war, either. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:32, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

: I fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. Fr. Andrew is not just an admin here, but more importantly an Orthodox priest entrusted with the Holy Mysteries. Yours in Christ, --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 16:11, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

::I also fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. I fail to see how a first warning is "punishment." A warning does not have to be "equitable." (I also fail to see how "(preferably) both" rescinding your warning while sending Fr Lev "an equal official warning" would be "equitable.") —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 17:29, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

:I have watched the by-play on the St Tikhon's Liturgy article. I am not knowledgeable about the liturgy and thus can't comment on it. But, I find the back and forth much like a "playground" dispute that a teacher is mediating and trying to end. As far as "punishments" a teacher can only treat the protagonists as they argue - thus the "punishments" can be "unequal". I don't find Fr. Andrew's comments out of order as the discussion seems to be a "he did it - no he did it." Let's be adults! Or are we getting into another "iota" argument. The 'big' one has lasted some 15 centuries. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 20:34, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

While I am not an administrator-- as someone who received a warning for an edit war from Father Andrew on a related topic and around the same time (which I have not formally disputed and will not because I was in the wrong), I also support Fr Andrew's moderation, as such warnings are applied not based on partisanship, but basic common sense. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:55, August 20, 2008 (UTC)
::The way I see this, [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Appeals|the appeals policy]] is [[User:Willibrord]] has posted an appeal of a warning here, and a panel of the first three sysops have volunteered by way of replies. It seems that they agree with the warning, so is there any thing else? - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 15:52, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::: Nope. Case closed, as per the policy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 17:21, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::::A warning to the other poster would have been an act of mercy; had Fr. Andrew followed through with his own threat, he would have banned that poster for starting another edit war.
::::The back-and-forth was not a playground thing but a case where I ''called in'' a moderator to forestall that poster’s edit war, confident I could prove my case with third-party documentation to a moderator’s satisfaction. And I did.
::::I disagree with the reasoning here: Orthodox don't believe in priestly infallibility; he acknowledged no rule had been violated; and rules by definition should apply equally. But I'll abide by your decision.
::::I'm not sure when Joseph Suaiden became an admin. This seems to indicate he's merely following me around the board.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:28, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::: 1. As I said in my comments, it was not any one of your remarks, but the preponderance of them together and the clear spirit which they convey, which I regarded as over the line. That I happen to be a priest has nothing to do with it, really. The panel of admins which volunteered to hear your appeal does, though.

::::: 2. I did not feel that Fr. Lev violated the disciplinary policy since it was put in place, but you did. (The warning was in response to posts by you ''after'' the policy was put in place. We won't retroactively enforce it.) In any event, whether he gets warned, banned, or whatever else. To put it bluntly: you're not an administrator, so you don't get to decide.

::::: 3. Joseph Suaiden is not an admin, but it doesn't surprise me that he's watching this particular page. (Of course, many editors simply watch [[Special:Recentchanges]].) It wouldn't surprise me that any editor does so. His comments on your receiving a warning are about as relevant as yours on Fr. Lev.

::::: 4. You clearly disagree with how things are run here. You have two options: either work with the administration or stop editing. The apparent (mind you, I don't know the state of your heart) hostility isn't going to get you much of anywhere. I suggest taking a wiki-break or perhaps working on some articles which don't stir up such controversy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:34, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::::All the quotations from Fr. Lev I reproduce above, from the St. Tikhon Liturgy Talk page -- including those imputing a hidden agenda and assuming bad faith -- occurred '''after''' this policy was instituted ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy&action=history May 29, if I'm reading correctly]). You can verify that [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&limit=250&action=history here]. Unless you feel the words I quote above do not violate this policy, and my milder words do, the implementation of this policy was not even-handed.
::::::Miscommunication often comes from divining a "clear spirit" rather than reading someone's words themselves. Anyway, my disagreement was on your particular handling of this situation, and I agreed to abide by the decision here. And I've already moved on. But I do not feel this was equitable implementation. If you were under the impression his words were before the policy was implemented, you were mistaken.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:24, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

== The problem moves to the Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Since the Liturgy of St Tikhon page is locked and Willibrord has lost his appeal of the warning, he has now moved on to the Liturgy of St Gregory page and removed the reference to the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', even though the entry as it stood said most AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal''. But since (1) some AWRV parishes do use the SASB; (2) the SASB is published by the Antiochian Archdiocese; and (3) the SASB contains a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP identifying the contents of the SASB as authorized liturgies for the Archdiocese, Willibrord's edit seems to be another attempt to edit the article not according to the facts but according to his personal preference of service book. I will refrain from changing the edit; however, I do think that in a straightforward case like this, such editing amounts to propaganda and should not be permitted. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:29, August 22, 2008 (UTC)
:Nope, Pistevo has ruled the OM/SASB issue is settled in favor of the SASB. Thus, this correct information was posted elsewhere in place of inaccurate information. If there's a problem, it's a refusal to abide by her ruling.
:I am most tired of these polemical attacks on everything I write. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:03, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:: Just for reference, [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]] is male. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:37, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:::What's the emoticon for "I'm so embarrassed"? Like I was I saying above, assumptions.... --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:26, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::If memory serves, :-$ - and for what it's worth, you're the second person on here to assume that...are people trying to tell me something? :P — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 02:03, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

:::::It's your gentle Christian manner. :-) A thousand pardons (asked with crimson face). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 13:54, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

== Moderation needed on Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Willibrord has again changed the Liturgy of St Gregory page, this time making the flase claim that the ''Orthodox Missa''l contains the "only" authorized text of the liturgy. The SASB, published a year '''after''' the ''Orthodox Missal'', was published by the Antiochian Archdiocese with a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP referring to it as "authorized" liturgies. The SASB is used by at least some AWRV parishes. To claim that the OM is the "only" authorized text betrays an interest in promoting something other than the facts. This matter is not settled. Neither Pistevo nor a subdeacon's thesis trumps the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese. IS Willibrod claiming that the SASB was not published by the Antiochian Archdioces? Is he claiming that the letter from Metropolitan PHILIP is a forgery, or that the Metropolitan doesn't have the authority to make such an authorization? Is he claiming that the AWRV parishes that use the SASB are using "unauthorized" liturgies in defiance of the Metropolitan? These are not matters of opinion; these are simple, straightforward, matters of fact. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:15, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

:As noted above, Pistevo (he of the male sex!) has settled the question of OM vs. SASB authorization on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=edit&section=1 Liturgy of St. Tikhon Talk page]. This is a straightforward matter of fact. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:07, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

== Guess What Needs Moderating Again? ==

Yep, it's the [[Western Rite]] page. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" PR squad seems intent on raiding the board. Take a look. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:42, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For once we agree. Since I am being falsely accused (what's new) of being part of this 'squad' when I am trying to just keep the article from becoming slanted, I want moderation there as well.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I'd like to make clear that what Willibrord is doing is at least indirectly in violation of OW policy (Agendas), and I'd like to bring it to your attention.

If I kept a public blog where I repeatedly referred to someone's clerical title in quotes (say I didn't like Father Benjamin Johnson and so I wrote a bunch of articles referring to him as "Father" Benjamin Johnson), would I be an objective person to discuss concerning this individual on a Wiki? Probably not. By deleting any reference to the liturgical work of someone who's made a real impact on the acceptability of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy, the Wiki is being done a disservice. Since I've already gotten a warning on it, I may as well speak freely. Am I wrong in assuming that Fr Aidan should be off-limits for Willibrord?

I won't even discuss Willibrord's "contributions" on the Liturgy of St Tikhon, since others do anyway. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:41, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

: What [[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] does on his own weblog is not OW's business, unless he chooses to import its contents or agenda here.

: In any event, I'm not sure what the Agenda is (perhaps you can tell us). Is it that all of Fr. Aidan's work is being systematically de-referenced on the wiki? From what I can tell, his publications are worthy of mention and have made a notable enough impact to warrant their inclusion as reference in WR-related material on OW. If that is indeed the Agenda, it needs to be cut out immediately.

: And could someone please explain to me why it is that the WR articles always seem to draw such contentiousness? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::Well, it is one of the few areas of conscious development in contemporary Orthodox liturgics... building from that, it may be easy to see a crossover from Eastern liturgics which (for various reasons, better or worse) have been set in stone and earmarked under 'unchangeable', when Western liturgics is, while liturgics, obviously not set in stone... both mere possibilities, of course - but, at the very least, a definite image problem. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 14:12, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

I submit that is precisely the agenda, and that a review of edits as well as condescending statements (referring to the OSRM as "authorized for use in a room in his sister's house", for example, when Holyrood house, Christminster, St Petroc and their work--all places he for some reason *doesn't mind*-- are apartment chapels) can be submitted as proof. The pattern is obvious when you look at any mention of Father Aidan or the "Old Sarum rite missal".

Again, I agree with you on the putting up a private website-- normally. But searching for "Keller" on the blog establishes in this case -- the 'why' to the 'what' of the edits.

In my opinion WR stuff is so contentious because since we are supposed to be the small minority of the West people think they are supposed to put on airs. We're so few that we tend to get louder to be heard. That and Sarum is touchy for obvious political reasons, --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:05, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

:Sigh, I suppose I have to answer this....

:'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me.

:'''As to the substance of the complaint''':
:I specifically refrained from removing the text's reference to the "Old Sarum Rite Missal," [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22|stating]], "Since I was [[User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism|falsely accused]] of 'vandalism' for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own." (More about that below.) The agenda has, in fact, been the reverse: to "source" certain materials as often as possible to make themselves appear more important than they are.

:The fact that Holyrood Monastery and St. Petroc's Monastery are small monasteries is immaterial; they are exclusively WR monasteries that celebrate a full cycle of Western Rite services, including WR hours and Mass/Liturgy. At St. Petroc, Sunday services are held at an associated church, not a home chapel. St. Petroc has a number of associated chapels, at least one sister mission (run by Fr. Barry Jeffries), and Fr. Michael celebrates WR liturgy on at least two continents each year. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is not being celebrated anywhere within Orthodoxy to my knowledge, not even the Eastern or Western Archdioceses of the Milan Synod. Met. HILARION reportedly allowed its author to pray his translation of Sarum (presumably the hours?) for his private, home prayers, not in public (where he serves a Byzantine church). I'm not sure that is relevant to Western Rite "Congregations"; frankly, bishops allow priests to pray all sorts of things privately. I am even less certain two large pictures (one mislabeled) of that missal, not being celebrated anywhere, are a more appropriate graphic for an article about the WR than a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner (which [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&curid=838&diff=80850&oldid=80847 chrisg deleted in favor of the OSRM]). What's being "sourced" and "de-sourced" there?

:The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."

:The thrust of the last two days' edits have been to introduce material that sure seems off-topic, give it a place of prominence not in keeping with reality (e.g., its not being celebrated publicly, or at all), and to contradict sourced statements with unsourced statements, which happen to exalt the Milan Synod, of which Mr. Suaiden is a member (or a Reader).

:I hope this closes the hate-Ben-Johnson portion of the week, and the moderators -- having heard the evidence -- will green light sourced statements over unsourced ones. Then I can write about something I enjoy (the WR) not something I do not enjoy writing about (me). And maybe OW can return to its purpose of presenting well-written, factually correct articles, not assaulting its authors.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:06, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

::Alright, some things that I can see that are able to be resolved.
::If it's not feasibly able to be attended by members of the public (i.e. if it's not advertised), it's not a church, it's private prayer.
::That doesn't stop that usage from being an approved usage.
::Blogs - and, whatever else you do on your own time - are neither here nor there. We're all about the articles. While a side tangent into why a person thinks the way they do is often amusing, it invariably snaps either into bowdlerism or ad hominem.
::If there's a source, the line stays, particularly in an article so desperately requiring sources. That seems a fairly useful rule. Really, as far as hedging goes, counter-sources merely introduce a 'so-and-so claims that (text) (source)'. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 22:34, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

== Responding to this attempt at self-defense ==

Fr Benjamin asserts--

''"'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me."''

'''This is mainly non-sequitur'''. We could probably go on all day about our last year or so, but it is largely immaterial. (I shall explain why shortly. The origin of my site was a direct response to a letter that was sent from Fr Benjamin attacking the mental stability of myself (and my wife, who had nothing to do with him) as well as a number of broad claims. Over time, and getting to know others in the vicariate I felt that calling the whole vicariate a fraud just because of YOUR predilection towards Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism was in fact NOT as common in the AWRV as I had initially thought. Thus, I had taken down the original attacking blog (located at bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com) and created a friendlier site at (westernorthodoxchristian.blogspot.com). I didn't even realize those sites were still up, and so thank you for noticing. I've deleted them.

I realized that the desire for Western Orthodox tradition was cross-jurisdictional, as was residual Popery and Protestantism.

Further, I don't know ChrisG at all.

That said, however, my direct response to you after you attacked my family in the hope of finding "Western Rite Critic" ''pales in comparison to your years-long obsession with Fr Aidan'', going so far as to keep him (albeit temporarily in retrospect) from being taken in by the ROCOR--in 2004. My issues on my websites were a few months old, and I realized my wrong. By contrast you are still very much interested in destroying Father Aidan's work.

Further, I was invited to OrthodoxWiki to help on Old Calendarists, and I freely contribute in a number of places. I am curious as to what your contribution/deletion ratio is. Many of your contributions are edit-wars.

He then states--

'':"The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."''

'''It's not unclear at all.''' Fr Cuthbert-cum-David was and is using the texts of the Medieval Monastic Psalter. Strangely, he has suddenly become interested publicly in the Overbeck recension... so the text of his ordinary may change. Perhaps he lacks one; as the MMP contains much of the Ordinary to begin with. I didn't suggest removing Holyrood at all, but references as to a use of which we are yet uncertain. And Holyrood doesn't "house two hieromonks" I am aware of. You may now claim Fr Augustine (Whitfield) as ROCOR, but he lives in an aged home, not with Fr Cuthbert.

Note-- Don't try to cover up an agenda by claiming I have one. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:12, February 18, 2009 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators

2009-02-18T00:17:04Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Responding to this attempt at self-defense */

{| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE"
|-
| style="font-size: 100%" |
'''If you are here to appeal a warning issued by a sysop''', be sure first to read carefully over the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]] to see if you have in fact violated it.

If you feel that you have not violated the policy, then you may post an appeal here to ask other sysops (not the one who issued the warning) to review the act and possibly reverse the decision. The sysop who issued the warning may defend his doing so in the discussion, but he is not hearing the appeal.

To post an appeal, do so by clicking the '''+''' at the top of this page (next to the '''edit''' tab) and including a brief subject line, so that your appeal will have its own section for discussion. In the main body, please describe why you feel that your behavior was not a violation of official policy.

Please note: '''Whether or not someone else "deserves" to be warned or banned is irrelevant in your appeal.''' The only issue at hand is your own behavior.

As per the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]], once three sysops have examined the appeal and voted, a majority of votes either in favor or against overturning it decides the case.

Thanks!
|}

== Liturgy of St. Tikhon Page Needs Moderating ==

As you can see, a poster who goes by [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User:Fr_Lev "Fr Lev"] has started another [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history "edit war"] on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon page. He has also started a long, self-contradictory explanation on its [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow Talk page], and I, probably unwisely, tried to respond to give a rationale for my edits to the moderators. This same poster waged three similar efforts against me this February 12-14 on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history Liturgy of St. Tikhon], the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history Liturgy of St. Gregory], and the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history main Western Rite] pages (and got at least one of them locked). He throws fits anytime anyone corrects his articles, accusing them of "personal animus" (see [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Misinformation here] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#ANSWER here]) or says they are [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Precisions_for_fr_Lev "being silly"].

I have '''not''' undone his latest reversion-of-a-reversion (the second in 24 hours), because Fr. Andrew [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection specifically warned] this poster the last time this happened, "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned." I will not restore accurate information at this time, but I've given the reasons I think it should be. I just don't want to be accused of participating in this nonsense, which is why I'm calling in "the adults." :)

I'd appreciate it if accurate, non-POV edits were not constantly replaced with inaccurate, misleading statements (which seem to serve an agenda) in endless edit wars. And we'd all appreciate it if we could go on contributing here without malicious charges of personal attacks. It's wearying. I'd appreciate if one of you could step in. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:18, June 27, 2008 (UTC)

: My responses are noted on your [[User talk:Willibrord|talk page]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Come back, directory pages! ==

Crud. I didn't know these were going away, and I was quite baffled just now when I tried to search for them and couldn't find any.

It was very nice to have all the various jurisdictions on one page. I just used the Oklahoma page myself a couple months ago when we were in Tulsa and wanted to find a nearby parish.

I took a look at OrthodoxyInAmerica.org, but just in Missouri I can see that some information is out-of-date, and the "Please allow three to four weeks for your submission to be processed" on the add/modify/delete page isn't encouraging at all. The correction form is also annoyingly long if all you want to do is correct a misspelling or change the priest's name.

Even if the directory pages here get out of date, it's far easier to edit and fix them, and many of us were happy to do so. I would like to vote that they be brought back. {{unsigned|Kyralessa}}

: If you think stuff on the OIA site tends to be out of date, it was worse here! (Especially because we were constantly having to fend off various non-SCOBA types, etc.) In any event, perhaps this might make a good project for [[osource:Main Page|OrthodoxSource]]. It's not really appropriate for an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:27, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

:Hmm... I agree that the content was worthwhile, and I also recognize why Fr. Andrew wants to keep it out of the "encyclopedia." It's not really the intention of OrthodoxSource, but we could move it over there... Or put it on another site. But, like he says... someone needs to moderate it. For my part, I'm not *too* opposed to its being on here. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

:I wholeheartedly agree with Kyralessa: I too was baffled to see that the directory pages were gone, and think that deleting them wasn't a very good idea. I personally have submitted ''numerous'' corrections to Orthodoxy in America using their interminable form (duplicate entries, misspellings, non-existent parishes, new parishes and missions, new websites and email addresses, etc.) which have never made it to the database; here, it was only a matter of going to the page and editing it. And for whatever it's worth the OW parish listings that I saw were, on the whole, more accurate than those in OIA (but of course, I did not see them all). I do understand the problem to which Fr Andrew refers above and appreciate how hard it would be to implement a solution, but it's really a shame that this very useful and easily editable resource had to go. If the pages are reinstated here or recreated elsewhere and help is needed to monitor them, I'll be more than glad to help in any way I can. --[[User:Voxstefani|Esteban]] 08:26, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::The plus side of the directories was that they invited folks to join OrthodoxWiki just to fix the inaccurate listings that they had knowledge of. The negative side was that it was a enormous maintenance task to keep them standardized let alone accurate. (I myself liked them just for the links to the local parish websites.) But if we do bring them back, we may need to put a disclaimer, on each one of them, warning that they are only maintained by users and nothing is guaranteed. - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 16:05, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::If my voice counts, I'd like to speak in favor of returning USA parish directory pages to Orthodox Wiki. Like some other people here, I've been having problems with orthodoxyinamerica. Their claimed response time (three to four weeks) is simply unacceptable, but the worst thing is - some submissions don't even get processed. My parish has recently moved from one city to another, and I've just submitted a listing update to OIA, but I'm not too optimistic about them updating it soon. --[[User:Alexei Kojenov|Alexei Kojenov]] 18:17, October 11, 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks everyone for your feedback. I totally agree that a good pan-Orthodox directory of Churches is needed... I think this might not be the place... but let me see about getting something up soon :-). — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

::Actually, have you seen the Parish Directory at [http://scoba.us scoba.us]? It's slightly out of date, and could contain more information, but it's decent and has nice maps. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

== Appeal of Fr. Andrew's Inequitable Treatment ==

Fr. Andrew issued an official warning to me over the [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]] page. I feel his actions represent highly inequitable treatment, arbitrary standards, and partiality in implementation of the rules. He acknowledged that the statements in question were ''not'' actually offensive (I quote: "no one of your comments recently has been above the top") but issued one anyway. However, his entire comment, [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b#Some_straightforward_facts found here], is misleading.

The warning came over the Talk page for St. Tikhon's Liturgy, the longest talk page on OrthodoxWiki and one of the most contentious. The discussion centered on an edit war a poster who goes by the ID "Fr Lev" instigated. He did the same to [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history several] of my [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history articles] between [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history Feb. 12-14] of this year, getting at least one "Protected" as a result.

As I [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:ASDamick#The_Reason_You_Make_the_Big_Bucks explained on Fr. Andrew's discussion page], the last time this poster started an edit war [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection Fr. Andrew, acting as a moderator, wrote], "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period." I made an edit to the St. Tikhon's Liturgy page and saw this poster immediately revert it. I reverted this article [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history once], and he again immediately reverted it. When I saw this poster was again determined to continually revert to a previous edit, ''I left his version up'' and alerted Fr. Andrew I was ''not'' going to engage in an edit war but would abide by a moderator's decision. Pistevo moved in and moderated that poster's objections; I think the moderator would testify I proved more than willing to cite sources and answer objections with verifiable facts. (Perusing the gargantuan archives of that Talk Page would prove that. Note: The discussions were not written chronologically, and since comments were split up, not all were signed -- making it somewhat hard to follow.) Ultimately, Pistevo agreed I had proven my point from third party sources.

At essentially that point, Fr. Andrew upbraided me for allegedly not referring to third party sources on a specific point (I had cited them) and furthering an edit war (see above).

He then issued a warning for allegedly refusing "to engage the arguments without attacking those making them." I think the substantive refutation of those arguments in the 80K talk page belies that. Moreover, the argument he warned me over, which he acknowledged was not ''actually'' objectionable in any way (!), was directed at that poster's ''argument'', not at ''him''; I did (and do) find his argument repetitive, semantical, and in error. However, '''it is far from even-handed treatment''' that Fr. Andrew warned me, much less only me, for behavior he did not find objectionable and which the other poster had done much more than I could dream of. Although I am not quick to claim offense, you'll verify in the Talk Archives ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1a archives 1a] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b 1b]) that this poster has repeatedly used ''ad hominem'' attacks against me, writing that I am someone who "wishes to pretend" my edits were true and have made "an attempt to confuse" your readers about the matter ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior '''''both implying bad faith and imputing a hidden agenda''''']). In his rhetorical first-strikes, he's asserted I have made "false claims" and spread "misinformation" (try counting the number of times he used that word on that Talk page) through "misrepresentations" and "personal invective" (and then accused me of making statements I had not made). He wrote that I believe Met. PHILIP "is acting 'in ignorance or malice'" (!) My words are "silly"; "silly, incoherent, and demonstrably false." And you'll notice [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow#Misinformation_continues who used the term Fr. Andrew referenced in his official warning as allegedly offensive, "puzzling," first].

1. Fr. Andrew acknowledged in his message my words DID NOT go "over the top" and violate any standard. Thus, there is no ''habeas corpus'' here, if you wish. This seems to allow moderators to discipline people whenever they feel like it, reason or no reason. C.S. Lewis eloquently addressed the notion of [http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment], that we should punish others, not because they actually violate rules, but to deter them somehow. If no standard was broken, as Fr. Andrew admits, '''no punishment is in order'''.
2. If the mild comments he cited did violate the rules, the other poster's comments to which they responded did so far more. Yet I alone got reprimanded (and blamed for an "edit war" in return for following Fr. Andrew's instructions, as well). This implies partiality or a sliding scale of discipline.

'''This is not equitable'''. I request that the moderators rescind said warning, send this poster an equal official warning, or (preferably) both. -[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:31, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

I should add, Fr. Andrew did not follow through on his threat to ban that poster for conducting another edit war, either. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:32, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

: I fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. Fr. Andrew is not just an admin here, but more importantly an Orthodox priest entrusted with the Holy Mysteries. Yours in Christ, --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 16:11, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

::I also fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. I fail to see how a first warning is "punishment." A warning does not have to be "equitable." (I also fail to see how "(preferably) both" rescinding your warning while sending Fr Lev "an equal official warning" would be "equitable.") —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 17:29, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

:I have watched the by-play on the St Tikhon's Liturgy article. I am not knowledgeable about the liturgy and thus can't comment on it. But, I find the back and forth much like a "playground" dispute that a teacher is mediating and trying to end. As far as "punishments" a teacher can only treat the protagonists as they argue - thus the "punishments" can be "unequal". I don't find Fr. Andrew's comments out of order as the discussion seems to be a "he did it - no he did it." Let's be adults! Or are we getting into another "iota" argument. The 'big' one has lasted some 15 centuries. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 20:34, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

While I am not an administrator-- as someone who received a warning for an edit war from Father Andrew on a related topic and around the same time (which I have not formally disputed and will not because I was in the wrong), I also support Fr Andrew's moderation, as such warnings are applied not based on partisanship, but basic common sense. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:55, August 20, 2008 (UTC)
::The way I see this, [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Appeals|the appeals policy]] is [[User:Willibrord]] has posted an appeal of a warning here, and a panel of the first three sysops have volunteered by way of replies. It seems that they agree with the warning, so is there any thing else? - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 15:52, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::: Nope. Case closed, as per the policy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 17:21, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::::A warning to the other poster would have been an act of mercy; had Fr. Andrew followed through with his own threat, he would have banned that poster for starting another edit war.
::::The back-and-forth was not a playground thing but a case where I ''called in'' a moderator to forestall that poster’s edit war, confident I could prove my case with third-party documentation to a moderator’s satisfaction. And I did.
::::I disagree with the reasoning here: Orthodox don't believe in priestly infallibility; he acknowledged no rule had been violated; and rules by definition should apply equally. But I'll abide by your decision.
::::I'm not sure when Joseph Suaiden became an admin. This seems to indicate he's merely following me around the board.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:28, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::: 1. As I said in my comments, it was not any one of your remarks, but the preponderance of them together and the clear spirit which they convey, which I regarded as over the line. That I happen to be a priest has nothing to do with it, really. The panel of admins which volunteered to hear your appeal does, though.

::::: 2. I did not feel that Fr. Lev violated the disciplinary policy since it was put in place, but you did. (The warning was in response to posts by you ''after'' the policy was put in place. We won't retroactively enforce it.) In any event, whether he gets warned, banned, or whatever else. To put it bluntly: you're not an administrator, so you don't get to decide.

::::: 3. Joseph Suaiden is not an admin, but it doesn't surprise me that he's watching this particular page. (Of course, many editors simply watch [[Special:Recentchanges]].) It wouldn't surprise me that any editor does so. His comments on your receiving a warning are about as relevant as yours on Fr. Lev.

::::: 4. You clearly disagree with how things are run here. You have two options: either work with the administration or stop editing. The apparent (mind you, I don't know the state of your heart) hostility isn't going to get you much of anywhere. I suggest taking a wiki-break or perhaps working on some articles which don't stir up such controversy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:34, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::::All the quotations from Fr. Lev I reproduce above, from the St. Tikhon Liturgy Talk page -- including those imputing a hidden agenda and assuming bad faith -- occurred '''after''' this policy was instituted ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy&action=history May 29, if I'm reading correctly]). You can verify that [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&limit=250&action=history here]. Unless you feel the words I quote above do not violate this policy, and my milder words do, the implementation of this policy was not even-handed.
::::::Miscommunication often comes from divining a "clear spirit" rather than reading someone's words themselves. Anyway, my disagreement was on your particular handling of this situation, and I agreed to abide by the decision here. And I've already moved on. But I do not feel this was equitable implementation. If you were under the impression his words were before the policy was implemented, you were mistaken.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:24, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

== The problem moves to the Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Since the Liturgy of St Tikhon page is locked and Willibrord has lost his appeal of the warning, he has now moved on to the Liturgy of St Gregory page and removed the reference to the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', even though the entry as it stood said most AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal''. But since (1) some AWRV parishes do use the SASB; (2) the SASB is published by the Antiochian Archdiocese; and (3) the SASB contains a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP identifying the contents of the SASB as authorized liturgies for the Archdiocese, Willibrord's edit seems to be another attempt to edit the article not according to the facts but according to his personal preference of service book. I will refrain from changing the edit; however, I do think that in a straightforward case like this, such editing amounts to propaganda and should not be permitted. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:29, August 22, 2008 (UTC)
:Nope, Pistevo has ruled the OM/SASB issue is settled in favor of the SASB. Thus, this correct information was posted elsewhere in place of inaccurate information. If there's a problem, it's a refusal to abide by her ruling.
:I am most tired of these polemical attacks on everything I write. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:03, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:: Just for reference, [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]] is male. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:37, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:::What's the emoticon for "I'm so embarrassed"? Like I was I saying above, assumptions.... --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:26, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::If memory serves, :-$ - and for what it's worth, you're the second person on here to assume that...are people trying to tell me something? :P — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 02:03, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

:::::It's your gentle Christian manner. :-) A thousand pardons (asked with crimson face). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 13:54, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

== Moderation needed on Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Willibrord has again changed the Liturgy of St Gregory page, this time making the flase claim that the ''Orthodox Missa''l contains the "only" authorized text of the liturgy. The SASB, published a year '''after''' the ''Orthodox Missal'', was published by the Antiochian Archdiocese with a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP referring to it as "authorized" liturgies. The SASB is used by at least some AWRV parishes. To claim that the OM is the "only" authorized text betrays an interest in promoting something other than the facts. This matter is not settled. Neither Pistevo nor a subdeacon's thesis trumps the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese. IS Willibrod claiming that the SASB was not published by the Antiochian Archdioces? Is he claiming that the letter from Metropolitan PHILIP is a forgery, or that the Metropolitan doesn't have the authority to make such an authorization? Is he claiming that the AWRV parishes that use the SASB are using "unauthorized" liturgies in defiance of the Metropolitan? These are not matters of opinion; these are simple, straightforward, matters of fact. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:15, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

:As noted above, Pistevo (he of the male sex!) has settled the question of OM vs. SASB authorization on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=edit&section=1 Liturgy of St. Tikhon Talk page]. This is a straightforward matter of fact. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:07, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

== Guess What Needs Moderating Again? ==

Yep, it's the [[Western Rite]] page. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" PR squad seems intent on raiding the board. Take a look. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:42, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For once we agree. Since I am being falsely accused (what's new) of being part of this 'squad' when I am trying to just keep the article from becoming slanted, I want moderation there as well.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I'd like to make clear that what Willibrord is doing is at least indirectly in violation of OW policy (Agendas), and I'd like to bring it to your attention.

If I kept a public blog where I repeatedly referred to someone's clerical title in quotes (say I didn't like Father Benjamin Johnson and so I wrote a bunch of articles referring to him as "Father" Benjamin Johnson), would I be an objective person to discuss concerning this individual on a Wiki? Probably not. By deleting any reference to the liturgical work of someone who's made a real impact on the acceptability of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy, the Wiki is being done a disservice. Since I've already gotten a warning on it, I may as well speak freely. Am I wrong in assuming that Fr Aidan should be off-limits for Willibrord?

I won't even discuss Willibrord's "contributions" on the Liturgy of St Tikhon, since others do anyway. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:41, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

: What [[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] does on his own weblog is not OW's business, unless he chooses to import its contents or agenda here.

: In any event, I'm not sure what the Agenda is (perhaps you can tell us). Is it that all of Fr. Aidan's work is being systematically de-referenced on the wiki? From what I can tell, his publications are worthy of mention and have made a notable enough impact to warrant their inclusion as reference in WR-related material on OW. If that is indeed the Agenda, it needs to be cut out immediately.

: And could someone please explain to me why it is that the WR articles always seem to draw such contentiousness? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::Well, it is one of the few areas of conscious development in contemporary Orthodox liturgics... building from that, it may be easy to see a crossover from Eastern liturgics which (for various reasons, better or worse) have been set in stone and earmarked under 'unchangeable', when Western liturgics is, while liturgics, obviously not set in stone... both mere possibilities, of course - but, at the very least, a definite image problem. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 14:12, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

I submit that is precisely the agenda, and that a review of edits as well as condescending statements (referring to the OSRM as "authorized for use in a room in his sister's house", for example, when Holyrood house, Christminster, St Petroc and their work--all places he for some reason *doesn't mind*-- are apartment chapels) can be submitted as proof. The pattern is obvious when you look at any mention of Father Aidan or the "Old Sarum rite missal".

Again, I agree with you on the putting up a private website-- normally. But searching for "Keller" on the blog establishes in this case -- the 'why' to the 'what' of the edits.

In my opinion WR stuff is so contentious because since we are supposed to be the small minority of the West people think they are supposed to put on airs. We're so few that we tend to get louder to be heard. That and Sarum is touchy for obvious political reasons, --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:05, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

:Sigh, I suppose I have to answer this....

:'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me.

:'''As to the substance of the complaint''':
:I specifically refrained from removing the text's reference to the "Old Sarum Rite Missal," [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22|stating]], "Since I was [[User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism|falsely accused]] of 'vandalism' for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own." (More about that below.) The agenda has, in fact, been the reverse: to "source" certain materials as often as possible to make themselves appear more important than they are.

:The fact that Holyrood Monastery and St. Petroc's Monastery are small monasteries is immaterial; they are exclusively WR monasteries that celebrate a full cycle of Western Rite services, including WR hours and Mass/Liturgy. At St. Petroc, Sunday services are held at an associated church, not a home chapel. St. Petroc has a number of associated chapels, at least one sister mission (run by Fr. Barry Jeffries), and Fr. Michael celebrates WR liturgy on at least two continents each year. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is not being celebrated anywhere within Orthodoxy to my knowledge, not even the Eastern or Western Archdioceses of the Milan Synod. Met. HILARION reportedly allowed its author to pray his translation of Sarum (presumably the hours?) for his private, home prayers, not in public (where he serves a Byzantine church). I'm not sure that is relevant to Western Rite "Congregations"; frankly, bishops allow priests to pray all sorts of things privately. I am even less certain two large pictures (one mislabeled) of that missal, not being celebrated anywhere, are a more appropriate graphic for an article about the WR than a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner (which [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&curid=838&diff=80850&oldid=80847 chrisg deleted in favor of the OSRM]). What's being "sourced" and "de-sourced" there?

:The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."

:The thrust of the last two days' edits have been to introduce material that sure seems off-topic, give it a place of prominence not in keeping with reality (e.g., its not being celebrated publicly, or at all), and to contradict sourced statements with unsourced statements, which happen to exalt the Milan Synod, of which Mr. Suaiden is a member (or a Reader).

:I hope this closes the hate-Ben-Johnson portion of the week, and the moderators -- having heard the evidence -- will green light sourced statements over unsourced ones. Then I can write about something I enjoy (the WR) not something I do not enjoy writing about (me). And maybe OW can return to its purpose of presenting well-written, factually correct articles, not assaulting its authors.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:06, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

::Alright, some things that I can see that are able to be resolved.
::If it's not feasibly able to be attended by members of the public (i.e. if it's not advertised), it's not a church, it's private prayer.
::That doesn't stop that usage from being an approved usage.
::Blogs - and, whatever else you do on your own time - are neither here nor there. We're all about the articles. While a side tangent into why a person thinks the way they do is often amusing, it invariably snaps either into bowdlerism or ad hominem.
::If there's a source, the line stays, particularly in an article so desperately requiring sources. That seems a fairly useful rule. Really, as far as hedging goes, counter-sources merely introduce a 'so-and-so claims that (text) (source)'. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 22:34, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

== Responding to this attempt at self-defense ==

Fr Benjamin asserts--
''
"'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me."''

'''This is mainly non-sequitur'''. We could probably go on all day about our last year or so, but it is largely immaterial. (I shall explain why shortly. The origin of my site was a direct response to a letter that was sent from Fr Benjamin attacking the mental stability of myself (and my wife, who had nothing to do with him) as well as a number of broad claims. Over time, and getting to know others in the vicariate I felt that calling the whole vicariate a fraud just because of YOUR predilection towards Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism was in fact NOT as common in the AWRV as I had initially thought. Thus, I had taken down the original attacking blog (located at bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com) and created a friendlier site at (westernorthodoxchristian.blogspot.com). I didn't even realize those sites were still up, and so thank you for noticing. I've deleted them.

I realized that the desire for Western Orthodox tradition was cross-jurisdictional, as was residual Popery and Protestantism.

Further, I don't know ChrisG at all.

That said, however, my direct response to you after you attacked my family in the hope of finding "Western Rite Critic" ''pales in comparison to your years-long obsession with Fr Aidan'', going so far as to keep him (albeit temporarily in retrospect) from being taken in by the ROCOR--in 2004. My issues on my websites were a few months old, and I realized my wrong. By contrast you are still very much interested in destroying Father Aidan's work.

Further, I was invited to OrthodoxWiki to help on Old Calendarists, and I freely contribute in a number of places. I am curious as to what your contribution/deletion ratio is. Many of your contributions are edit-wars.

He then states--

'':"The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."''

'''It's not unclear at all.''' Fr Cuthbert-cum-David was and is using the texts of the Medieval Monastic Psalter. Strangely, he has suddenly become interested publicly in the Overbeck recension... so the text of his ordinary may change. Perhaps he lacks one; as the MMP contains much of the Ordinary to begin with. I didn't suggest removing Holyrood at all, but references as to a use of which we are yet uncertain. And Holyrood doesn't "house two hieromonks" I am aware of. You may now claim Fr Augustine (Whitfield) as ROCOR, but he lives in an aged home, not with Fr Cuthbert.

Note-- Don't try to cover up an agenda by claiming I have one. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:12, February 18, 2009 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators

2009-02-18T00:12:55Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Guess What Needs Moderating Again? */

{| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE"
|-
| style="font-size: 100%" |
'''If you are here to appeal a warning issued by a sysop''', be sure first to read carefully over the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]] to see if you have in fact violated it.

If you feel that you have not violated the policy, then you may post an appeal here to ask other sysops (not the one who issued the warning) to review the act and possibly reverse the decision. The sysop who issued the warning may defend his doing so in the discussion, but he is not hearing the appeal.

To post an appeal, do so by clicking the '''+''' at the top of this page (next to the '''edit''' tab) and including a brief subject line, so that your appeal will have its own section for discussion. In the main body, please describe why you feel that your behavior was not a violation of official policy.

Please note: '''Whether or not someone else "deserves" to be warned or banned is irrelevant in your appeal.''' The only issue at hand is your own behavior.

As per the [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary policy]], once three sysops have examined the appeal and voted, a majority of votes either in favor or against overturning it decides the case.

Thanks!
|}

== Liturgy of St. Tikhon Page Needs Moderating ==

As you can see, a poster who goes by [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User:Fr_Lev "Fr Lev"] has started another [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history "edit war"] on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon page. He has also started a long, self-contradictory explanation on its [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow Talk page], and I, probably unwisely, tried to respond to give a rationale for my edits to the moderators. This same poster waged three similar efforts against me this February 12-14 on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history Liturgy of St. Tikhon], the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history Liturgy of St. Gregory], and the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history main Western Rite] pages (and got at least one of them locked). He throws fits anytime anyone corrects his articles, accusing them of "personal animus" (see [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Misinformation here] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#ANSWER here]) or says they are [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Precisions_for_fr_Lev "being silly"].

I have '''not''' undone his latest reversion-of-a-reversion (the second in 24 hours), because Fr. Andrew [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection specifically warned] this poster the last time this happened, "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned." I will not restore accurate information at this time, but I've given the reasons I think it should be. I just don't want to be accused of participating in this nonsense, which is why I'm calling in "the adults." :)

I'd appreciate it if accurate, non-POV edits were not constantly replaced with inaccurate, misleading statements (which seem to serve an agenda) in endless edit wars. And we'd all appreciate it if we could go on contributing here without malicious charges of personal attacks. It's wearying. I'd appreciate if one of you could step in. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:18, June 27, 2008 (UTC)

: My responses are noted on your [[User talk:Willibrord|talk page]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Come back, directory pages! ==

Crud. I didn't know these were going away, and I was quite baffled just now when I tried to search for them and couldn't find any.

It was very nice to have all the various jurisdictions on one page. I just used the Oklahoma page myself a couple months ago when we were in Tulsa and wanted to find a nearby parish.

I took a look at OrthodoxyInAmerica.org, but just in Missouri I can see that some information is out-of-date, and the "Please allow three to four weeks for your submission to be processed" on the add/modify/delete page isn't encouraging at all. The correction form is also annoyingly long if all you want to do is correct a misspelling or change the priest's name.

Even if the directory pages here get out of date, it's far easier to edit and fix them, and many of us were happy to do so. I would like to vote that they be brought back. {{unsigned|Kyralessa}}

: If you think stuff on the OIA site tends to be out of date, it was worse here! (Especially because we were constantly having to fend off various non-SCOBA types, etc.) In any event, perhaps this might make a good project for [[osource:Main Page|OrthodoxSource]]. It's not really appropriate for an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:27, July 19, 2008 (UTC)

:Hmm... I agree that the content was worthwhile, and I also recognize why Fr. Andrew wants to keep it out of the "encyclopedia." It's not really the intention of OrthodoxSource, but we could move it over there... Or put it on another site. But, like he says... someone needs to moderate it. For my part, I'm not *too* opposed to its being on here. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

:I wholeheartedly agree with Kyralessa: I too was baffled to see that the directory pages were gone, and think that deleting them wasn't a very good idea. I personally have submitted ''numerous'' corrections to Orthodoxy in America using their interminable form (duplicate entries, misspellings, non-existent parishes, new parishes and missions, new websites and email addresses, etc.) which have never made it to the database; here, it was only a matter of going to the page and editing it. And for whatever it's worth the OW parish listings that I saw were, on the whole, more accurate than those in OIA (but of course, I did not see them all). I do understand the problem to which Fr Andrew refers above and appreciate how hard it would be to implement a solution, but it's really a shame that this very useful and easily editable resource had to go. If the pages are reinstated here or recreated elsewhere and help is needed to monitor them, I'll be more than glad to help in any way I can. --[[User:Voxstefani|Esteban]] 08:26, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::The plus side of the directories was that they invited folks to join OrthodoxWiki just to fix the inaccurate listings that they had knowledge of. The negative side was that it was a enormous maintenance task to keep them standardized let alone accurate. (I myself liked them just for the links to the local parish websites.) But if we do bring them back, we may need to put a disclaimer, on each one of them, warning that they are only maintained by users and nothing is guaranteed. - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 16:05, September 11, 2008 (UTC)

::If my voice counts, I'd like to speak in favor of returning USA parish directory pages to Orthodox Wiki. Like some other people here, I've been having problems with orthodoxyinamerica. Their claimed response time (three to four weeks) is simply unacceptable, but the worst thing is - some submissions don't even get processed. My parish has recently moved from one city to another, and I've just submitted a listing update to OIA, but I'm not too optimistic about them updating it soon. --[[User:Alexei Kojenov|Alexei Kojenov]] 18:17, October 11, 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks everyone for your feedback. I totally agree that a good pan-Orthodox directory of Churches is needed... I think this might not be the place... but let me see about getting something up soon :-). — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

::Actually, have you seen the Parish Directory at [http://scoba.us scoba.us]? It's slightly out of date, and could contain more information, but it's decent and has nice maps. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

== Appeal of Fr. Andrew's Inequitable Treatment ==

Fr. Andrew issued an official warning to me over the [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]] page. I feel his actions represent highly inequitable treatment, arbitrary standards, and partiality in implementation of the rules. He acknowledged that the statements in question were ''not'' actually offensive (I quote: "no one of your comments recently has been above the top") but issued one anyway. However, his entire comment, [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b#Some_straightforward_facts found here], is misleading.

The warning came over the Talk page for St. Tikhon's Liturgy, the longest talk page on OrthodoxWiki and one of the most contentious. The discussion centered on an edit war a poster who goes by the ID "Fr Lev" instigated. He did the same to [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history several] of my [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Gregory_the_Great&action=history articles] between [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&action=history Feb. 12-14] of this year, getting at least one "Protected" as a result.

As I [http://orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:ASDamick#The_Reason_You_Make_the_Big_Bucks explained on Fr. Andrew's discussion page], the last time this poster started an edit war [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Western_Rite#Article_protection Fr. Andrew, acting as a moderator, wrote], "If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period." I made an edit to the St. Tikhon's Liturgy page and saw this poster immediately revert it. I reverted this article [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=history once], and he again immediately reverted it. When I saw this poster was again determined to continually revert to a previous edit, ''I left his version up'' and alerted Fr. Andrew I was ''not'' going to engage in an edit war but would abide by a moderator's decision. Pistevo moved in and moderated that poster's objections; I think the moderator would testify I proved more than willing to cite sources and answer objections with verifiable facts. (Perusing the gargantuan archives of that Talk Page would prove that. Note: The discussions were not written chronologically, and since comments were split up, not all were signed -- making it somewhat hard to follow.) Ultimately, Pistevo agreed I had proven my point from third party sources.

At essentially that point, Fr. Andrew upbraided me for allegedly not referring to third party sources on a specific point (I had cited them) and furthering an edit war (see above).

He then issued a warning for allegedly refusing "to engage the arguments without attacking those making them." I think the substantive refutation of those arguments in the 80K talk page belies that. Moreover, the argument he warned me over, which he acknowledged was not ''actually'' objectionable in any way (!), was directed at that poster's ''argument'', not at ''him''; I did (and do) find his argument repetitive, semantical, and in error. However, '''it is far from even-handed treatment''' that Fr. Andrew warned me, much less only me, for behavior he did not find objectionable and which the other poster had done much more than I could dream of. Although I am not quick to claim offense, you'll verify in the Talk Archives ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1a archives 1a] and [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow/Archive_1b 1b]) that this poster has repeatedly used ''ad hominem'' attacks against me, writing that I am someone who "wishes to pretend" my edits were true and have made "an attempt to confuse" your readers about the matter ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior '''''both implying bad faith and imputing a hidden agenda''''']). In his rhetorical first-strikes, he's asserted I have made "false claims" and spread "misinformation" (try counting the number of times he used that word on that Talk page) through "misrepresentations" and "personal invective" (and then accused me of making statements I had not made). He wrote that I believe Met. PHILIP "is acting 'in ignorance or malice'" (!) My words are "silly"; "silly, incoherent, and demonstrably false." And you'll notice [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow#Misinformation_continues who used the term Fr. Andrew referenced in his official warning as allegedly offensive, "puzzling," first].

1. Fr. Andrew acknowledged in his message my words DID NOT go "over the top" and violate any standard. Thus, there is no ''habeas corpus'' here, if you wish. This seems to allow moderators to discipline people whenever they feel like it, reason or no reason. C.S. Lewis eloquently addressed the notion of [http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment], that we should punish others, not because they actually violate rules, but to deter them somehow. If no standard was broken, as Fr. Andrew admits, '''no punishment is in order'''.
2. If the mild comments he cited did violate the rules, the other poster's comments to which they responded did so far more. Yet I alone got reprimanded (and blamed for an "edit war" in return for following Fr. Andrew's instructions, as well). This implies partiality or a sliding scale of discipline.

'''This is not equitable'''. I request that the moderators rescind said warning, send this poster an equal official warning, or (preferably) both. -[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:31, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

I should add, Fr. Andrew did not follow through on his threat to ban that poster for conducting another edit war, either. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 10:32, August 18, 2008 (UTC)

: I fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. Fr. Andrew is not just an admin here, but more importantly an Orthodox priest entrusted with the Holy Mysteries. Yours in Christ, --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 16:11, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

::I also fully support Fr. Andrew's actions. I fail to see how a first warning is "punishment." A warning does not have to be "equitable." (I also fail to see how "(preferably) both" rescinding your warning while sending Fr Lev "an equal official warning" would be "equitable.") —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 17:29, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

:I have watched the by-play on the St Tikhon's Liturgy article. I am not knowledgeable about the liturgy and thus can't comment on it. But, I find the back and forth much like a "playground" dispute that a teacher is mediating and trying to end. As far as "punishments" a teacher can only treat the protagonists as they argue - thus the "punishments" can be "unequal". I don't find Fr. Andrew's comments out of order as the discussion seems to be a "he did it - no he did it." Let's be adults! Or are we getting into another "iota" argument. The 'big' one has lasted some 15 centuries. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 20:34, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

While I am not an administrator-- as someone who received a warning for an edit war from Father Andrew on a related topic and around the same time (which I have not formally disputed and will not because I was in the wrong), I also support Fr Andrew's moderation, as such warnings are applied not based on partisanship, but basic common sense. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:55, August 20, 2008 (UTC)
::The way I see this, [[OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Appeals|the appeals policy]] is [[User:Willibrord]] has posted an appeal of a warning here, and a panel of the first three sysops have volunteered by way of replies. It seems that they agree with the warning, so is there any thing else? - [[User:Andrew|Andy]] 15:52, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::: Nope. Case closed, as per the policy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 17:21, August 20, 2008 (UTC)

::::A warning to the other poster would have been an act of mercy; had Fr. Andrew followed through with his own threat, he would have banned that poster for starting another edit war.
::::The back-and-forth was not a playground thing but a case where I ''called in'' a moderator to forestall that poster’s edit war, confident I could prove my case with third-party documentation to a moderator’s satisfaction. And I did.
::::I disagree with the reasoning here: Orthodox don't believe in priestly infallibility; he acknowledged no rule had been violated; and rules by definition should apply equally. But I'll abide by your decision.
::::I'm not sure when Joseph Suaiden became an admin. This seems to indicate he's merely following me around the board.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:28, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::: 1. As I said in my comments, it was not any one of your remarks, but the preponderance of them together and the clear spirit which they convey, which I regarded as over the line. That I happen to be a priest has nothing to do with it, really. The panel of admins which volunteered to hear your appeal does, though.

::::: 2. I did not feel that Fr. Lev violated the disciplinary policy since it was put in place, but you did. (The warning was in response to posts by you ''after'' the policy was put in place. We won't retroactively enforce it.) In any event, whether he gets warned, banned, or whatever else. To put it bluntly: you're not an administrator, so you don't get to decide.

::::: 3. Joseph Suaiden is not an admin, but it doesn't surprise me that he's watching this particular page. (Of course, many editors simply watch [[Special:Recentchanges]].) It wouldn't surprise me that any editor does so. His comments on your receiving a warning are about as relevant as yours on Fr. Lev.

::::: 4. You clearly disagree with how things are run here. You have two options: either work with the administration or stop editing. The apparent (mind you, I don't know the state of your heart) hostility isn't going to get you much of anywhere. I suggest taking a wiki-break or perhaps working on some articles which don't stir up such controversy. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:34, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::::All the quotations from Fr. Lev I reproduce above, from the St. Tikhon Liturgy Talk page -- including those imputing a hidden agenda and assuming bad faith -- occurred '''after''' this policy was instituted ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy&action=history May 29, if I'm reading correctly]). You can verify that [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&limit=250&action=history here]. Unless you feel the words I quote above do not violate this policy, and my milder words do, the implementation of this policy was not even-handed.
::::::Miscommunication often comes from divining a "clear spirit" rather than reading someone's words themselves. Anyway, my disagreement was on your particular handling of this situation, and I agreed to abide by the decision here. And I've already moved on. But I do not feel this was equitable implementation. If you were under the impression his words were before the policy was implemented, you were mistaken.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:24, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

== The problem moves to the Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Since the Liturgy of St Tikhon page is locked and Willibrord has lost his appeal of the warning, he has now moved on to the Liturgy of St Gregory page and removed the reference to the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', even though the entry as it stood said most AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal''. But since (1) some AWRV parishes do use the SASB; (2) the SASB is published by the Antiochian Archdiocese; and (3) the SASB contains a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP identifying the contents of the SASB as authorized liturgies for the Archdiocese, Willibrord's edit seems to be another attempt to edit the article not according to the facts but according to his personal preference of service book. I will refrain from changing the edit; however, I do think that in a straightforward case like this, such editing amounts to propaganda and should not be permitted. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:29, August 22, 2008 (UTC)
:Nope, Pistevo has ruled the OM/SASB issue is settled in favor of the SASB. Thus, this correct information was posted elsewhere in place of inaccurate information. If there's a problem, it's a refusal to abide by her ruling.
:I am most tired of these polemical attacks on everything I write. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:03, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:: Just for reference, [[User:Pistevo|Pistevo]] is male. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:37, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

:::What's the emoticon for "I'm so embarrassed"? Like I was I saying above, assumptions.... --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:26, August 22, 2008 (UTC)

::::If memory serves, :-$ - and for what it's worth, you're the second person on here to assume that...are people trying to tell me something? :P — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 02:03, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

:::::It's your gentle Christian manner. :-) A thousand pardons (asked with crimson face). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 13:54, August 23, 2008 (UTC)

== Moderation needed on Liturgy of St Gregory page ==

Willibrord has again changed the Liturgy of St Gregory page, this time making the flase claim that the ''Orthodox Missa''l contains the "only" authorized text of the liturgy. The SASB, published a year '''after''' the ''Orthodox Missal'', was published by the Antiochian Archdiocese with a letter from Metropolitan PHILIP referring to it as "authorized" liturgies. The SASB is used by at least some AWRV parishes. To claim that the OM is the "only" authorized text betrays an interest in promoting something other than the facts. This matter is not settled. Neither Pistevo nor a subdeacon's thesis trumps the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese. IS Willibrod claiming that the SASB was not published by the Antiochian Archdioces? Is he claiming that the letter from Metropolitan PHILIP is a forgery, or that the Metropolitan doesn't have the authority to make such an authorization? Is he claiming that the AWRV parishes that use the SASB are using "unauthorized" liturgies in defiance of the Metropolitan? These are not matters of opinion; these are simple, straightforward, matters of fact. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:15, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

:As noted above, Pistevo (he of the male sex!) has settled the question of OM vs. SASB authorization on the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow&action=edit&section=1 Liturgy of St. Tikhon Talk page]. This is a straightforward matter of fact. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:07, August 24, 2008 (UTC)

== Guess What Needs Moderating Again? ==

Yep, it's the [[Western Rite]] page. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" PR squad seems intent on raiding the board. Take a look. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:42, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For once we agree. Since I am being falsely accused (what's new) of being part of this 'squad' when I am trying to just keep the article from becoming slanted, I want moderation there as well.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I'd like to make clear that what Willibrord is doing is at least indirectly in violation of OW policy (Agendas), and I'd like to bring it to your attention.

If I kept a public blog where I repeatedly referred to someone's clerical title in quotes (say I didn't like Father Benjamin Johnson and so I wrote a bunch of articles referring to him as "Father" Benjamin Johnson), would I be an objective person to discuss concerning this individual on a Wiki? Probably not. By deleting any reference to the liturgical work of someone who's made a real impact on the acceptability of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy, the Wiki is being done a disservice. Since I've already gotten a warning on it, I may as well speak freely. Am I wrong in assuming that Fr Aidan should be off-limits for Willibrord?

I won't even discuss Willibrord's "contributions" on the Liturgy of St Tikhon, since others do anyway. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:41, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

: What [[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] does on his own weblog is not OW's business, unless he chooses to import its contents or agenda here.

: In any event, I'm not sure what the Agenda is (perhaps you can tell us). Is it that all of Fr. Aidan's work is being systematically de-referenced on the wiki? From what I can tell, his publications are worthy of mention and have made a notable enough impact to warrant their inclusion as reference in WR-related material on OW. If that is indeed the Agenda, it needs to be cut out immediately.

: And could someone please explain to me why it is that the WR articles always seem to draw such contentiousness? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:04, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::Well, it is one of the few areas of conscious development in contemporary Orthodox liturgics... building from that, it may be easy to see a crossover from Eastern liturgics which (for various reasons, better or worse) have been set in stone and earmarked under 'unchangeable', when Western liturgics is, while liturgics, obviously not set in stone... both mere possibilities, of course - but, at the very least, a definite image problem. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 14:12, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

I submit that is precisely the agenda, and that a review of edits as well as condescending statements (referring to the OSRM as "authorized for use in a room in his sister's house", for example, when Holyrood house, Christminster, St Petroc and their work--all places he for some reason *doesn't mind*-- are apartment chapels) can be submitted as proof. The pattern is obvious when you look at any mention of Father Aidan or the "Old Sarum rite missal".

Again, I agree with you on the putting up a private website-- normally. But searching for "Keller" on the blog establishes in this case -- the 'why' to the 'what' of the edits.

In my opinion WR stuff is so contentious because since we are supposed to be the small minority of the West people think they are supposed to put on airs. We're so few that we tend to get louder to be heard. That and Sarum is touchy for obvious political reasons, --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:05, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

:Sigh, I suppose I have to answer this....

:'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me.

:'''As to the substance of the complaint''':
:I specifically refrained from removing the text's reference to the "Old Sarum Rite Missal," [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22|stating]], "Since I was [[User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism|falsely accused]] of 'vandalism' for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own." (More about that below.) The agenda has, in fact, been the reverse: to "source" certain materials as often as possible to make themselves appear more important than they are.

:The fact that Holyrood Monastery and St. Petroc's Monastery are small monasteries is immaterial; they are exclusively WR monasteries that celebrate a full cycle of Western Rite services, including WR hours and Mass/Liturgy. At St. Petroc, Sunday services are held at an associated church, not a home chapel. St. Petroc has a number of associated chapels, at least one sister mission (run by Fr. Barry Jeffries), and Fr. Michael celebrates WR liturgy on at least two continents each year. The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is not being celebrated anywhere within Orthodoxy to my knowledge, not even the Eastern or Western Archdioceses of the Milan Synod. Met. HILARION reportedly allowed its author to pray his translation of Sarum (presumably the hours?) for his private, home prayers, not in public (where he serves a Byzantine church). I'm not sure that is relevant to Western Rite "Congregations"; frankly, bishops allow priests to pray all sorts of things privately. I am even less certain two large pictures (one mislabeled) of that missal, not being celebrated anywhere, are a more appropriate graphic for an article about the WR than a picture of Fr. Alexander Turner (which [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&curid=838&diff=80850&oldid=80847 chrisg deleted in favor of the OSRM]). What's being "sourced" and "de-sourced" there?

:The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."

:The thrust of the last two days' edits have been to introduce material that sure seems off-topic, give it a place of prominence not in keeping with reality (e.g., its not being celebrated publicly, or at all), and to contradict sourced statements with unsourced statements, which happen to exalt the Milan Synod, of which Mr. Suaiden is a member (or a Reader).

:I hope this closes the hate-Ben-Johnson portion of the week, and the moderators -- having heard the evidence -- will green light sourced statements over unsourced ones. Then I can write about something I enjoy (the WR) not something I do not enjoy writing about (me). And maybe OW can return to its purpose of presenting well-written, factually correct articles, not assaulting its authors.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:06, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

::Alright, some things that I can see that are able to be resolved.
::If it's not feasibly able to be attended by members of the public (i.e. if it's not advertised), it's not a church, it's private prayer.
::That doesn't stop that usage from being an approved usage.
::Blogs - and, whatever else you do on your own time - are neither here nor there. We're all about the articles. While a side tangent into why a person thinks the way they do is often amusing, it invariably snaps either into bowdlerism or ad hominem.
::If there's a source, the line stays, particularly in an article so desperately requiring sources. That seems a fairly useful rule. Really, as far as hedging goes, counter-sources merely introduce a 'so-and-so claims that (text) (source)'. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 22:34, February 17, 2009 (UTC)

== Responding to this attempt at self-defense ==

Fr Benjamin asserts--

"'''The allegation of personal spite, which Joseph levels, is rich coming from a man who ran a blog dedicated to attacking me by name.''' People alerted me Joseph addresses me "personally" on his blog's "why" page (mission statement), calls me a "cultist," and warns me to "prepare well. Because we have unfinished business." (If these quotations, which I'm told are located [http://westernritefraud.wordpress.com/about here], are inaccurate, please so state; I will ''gladly'' withdraw them.) Fr. Andrew, I agree that what people do elsewhere is irrelevant, unless they try to import it here. Yet in the last 24 hours we have seen the discussion being diverted away from the objective facts of the article at hand to an attack upon my character and imputing an agenda. (A [[User_talk:Chrisg|"warlike and unChristian"]] agenda, no less!) And a call for my censorship from a man who runs a blog dedicated to, finishing business, with me."

'''This is mainly non-sequitur'''. We could probably go on all day about our last year or so, but it is largely immaterial. (I shall explain why shortly. The origin of my site was a direct response to a letter that was sent from Fr Benjamin attacking the mental stability of myself (and my wife, who had nothing to do with him) as well as a number of broad claims. Over time, and getting to know others in the vicariate I felt that calling the whole vicariate a fraud just because of YOUR predilection towards Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism was in fact NOT as common in the AWRV as I had initially thought. Thus, I had taken down the original attacking blog (located at bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com) and created a friendlier site at (westernorthodoxchristian.blogspot.com). I didn't even realize those sites were still up, and so thank you for noticing. I've deleted them.

I realized that the desire for Western Orthodox tradition was cross-jurisdictional, as was residual Popery and Protestantism.

That said, however, my direct response to you after you attacked my family in the hope of finding "Western Rite Critic" pales in comparison to your years-long obsession with Fr Aidan, going so far as to keep him (albeit temporarily in retrospect) from being taken in by the ROCOR--in 2004. My issues on my websites were a few months old, and I realized my wrong. By contrast you are still very much interested in destroying Father Aidan's work.

Further, I was invited to OrthodoxWiki to help on Old Calendarists, and I freely contribute in a number of places. I am curious as to what your contribution/deletion ratio is. Many of your contributions are edit-wars.

He then states--

:"The other contentious issue is that Joseph is claiming Hieromonk David (Pierce) of Holyrood Monastery celebrates a Milan Synod version of Sarum (but a different version of Sarum than the OSRM, or St. Petroc Monastery's Sarum -- clear as mud?). His assertion is just that -- an unsourced assertion. But the [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html ''source''] I provided, which is still linked in the article, quotes Fr. David writing to the contrary, he celebrates the Mt. Royal usage DL and the "Holyrood/St. Petroc" recension of Sarum. If Joseph has any evidence to the contrary, this would be the place to offer it, and the article would reflect that; but he has dismissed all evidence as [[Talk:Western_Rite#Images_under_.22Congregations.22_2|"anecdotal."]] He then suggested we remove reference to Fr. David/Holyrood Monastery altogether. Here is logic I cannot endorse: removing reference to a functioning WR monastery (that houses two hieromonks) but retaining reference to the private prayers of a Byzantine priest, in the name of improving the section on WR "Congregations."

It's not unclear at all. Fr Cuthbert-cum-David was and is using the texts of the Medieval Monastic Psalter. Strangely, he has suddenly become interested publicly in the Overbeck recension... so the text of his ordinary may change. Perhaps he lacks one; as the MMP contains much of the Ordinary to begin with. I didn't suggest removing Holyrood at all, but references as to a use of which we are yet uncertain. And Holyrood doesn't "house two hieromonks" I am aware of. You may now claim Fr Augustine (Whitfield) as ROCOR, but he lives in an aged home, not with Fr Cuthbert.

Note-- Don't try to cover up an agenda by claiming I have one. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:12, February 18, 2009 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators

2009-02-17T18:05:18Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Guess What Needs Moderating Again? */

OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators

2009-02-16T20:41:49Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Guess What Needs Moderating Again? */

Talk:Western Rite

2009-02-16T19:09:02Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Images under "Congregations" 2 */

*[[/Archive 1]]

----

==New Changes==

Folks, with the new receptions in ROCOR please understand that the party line vs. facts thing has to stop. Some new FACTS.

1) St Hilarion press is not named after Archbishop Hilarion so there is no "different Archbishop Hilarion".
2) Metropolitan Hilarion (formerly Archbishop of both Sydney and New York) are all the same guy.
3) He blessed Fr Aidan to use the same text as Milan's Western Archdiocese, largely Fr Aidan's own work.
4) He blessed Fr David (Pierce, formerly Father Cuthbert) to continue as he was, and he was using Milan's Eastern Archdiocese texts.
5) That makes the "majority" ROCOR texts, in fact, Milan Synod usages. If you can get over jurisdictional bickering and focus on what is liturgically accurate, folks, a lot of pain will be avoided in this transition.

Thank you.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:10, October 1, 2008 (UTC)

:Do you happen to have citations for the ROCOR receptions? — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 06:31, October 1, 2008 (UTC)

Physically? No, I just have public confirmations of them online.

Hieromonk Aidan was received as a hieromonk last week.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxWest/message/18669
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13045

Hieromonk David (formerly Fr Cuthbert, which makes no sense, given David was his birthname) was confirmed by Fr Steven Ritter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13121

I was not pleased with either of these confimations from my perspective, of course, but they did happen. Both were received in by chierothesia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:40, October 1, 2008 (UTC)

:The Archbishop Hilarion of Texas mentioned on the title page of the Sarum Missal published by St Hilarion Press is NOT the same person as Metropolitan Hilarion of New York (formerly Archbishop Hilarion of Sydney and Australia). This is a factual point. The Missal was not published with the authority of ROCOR. Authority for use in ROCOR, if granted, was very much later than original publication of the missal. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 09:41, October 1, 2008 (UTC)

:: Methinks the issue here is of some ambiguous wording: "In 2008, a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father [[Aidan (Keller)]], was blessed to use his own translations of the pre-schism [[Sarum rite]], found in the ''Old Sarum Rite Missal'', by Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia."

:: This could be read in (at least) two ways: 1. +Hilarion did the blessing. 2. +Hilarion wrote the missal. I think Joseph is reading it as #1, while Chris is reading it as #2. Maybe y'all will want to work out some wording that's less ambiguous. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:29, October 1, 2008 (UTC)

==Splitting up article==
The article is getting huge, and y'all's good suggestions and plans would seem to make it even bigger. Perhaps it should be transitioned into a general article with multiple sections, then each section having a "''Main article: [[Foo]]''" included at the top where [[Foo]] becomes the more detailed article on that subject. --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 12:55, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT)

==Lack of liturgical continuity==

Another thing this brings to mind is the note in the article on [[Daniel (Alexandrow) of Erie]] : "Also, simply doing his own extensive research on ancient rites came in useful during the elevation of Metropolitan Philaret in 1964. This was the first time the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia had elected a successor who was not a Metropolitan in episcopal rank, and inasmuch as the remainder bishops were of lesser rank themselves, many were unsure of the elevation in such a situation. However, thanks to the research of Bishop Daniel, who was yet a reader, the Synod of Bishops was able to essentially replicate the office of elevation of a Metropolitan as performed in 15th century Russia." - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]

: I'm also reminded of the restoration of the rite of [[enthronement|enthroning]] a patriarch of Moscow that was enacted when St. [[Tikhon of Moscow]] was elected. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:04, November 7, 2005 (CST)

==Miscategorization of links==

The letter of Patriarch Sergius I to Vladimir Lossky is not a 'criticism' of the Western Rite, but rather pro-Western Rite. - [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]

== Blogs?? ==

Do we really want to include links to blogs as part of this encyclopedia? Blogs have nothing to do with [[NPOV]], and they often stray far afield from the purported topic. One I glanced at was recommending the writings of William F. Buckley, Jr. -- nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy! --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:31, March 2, 2006 (CST)

: If they're exclusively (or near-exclusively) topical, then linking them is fine. If not, then no. If the only thing that distinguishes the weblogs in question is that they're owned by WR people, then that doesn't seem enough to warrant a link. Individual articles posted there could certainly be linked if they're substantial and contribute significantly to the topic. There's no reason that the links couldn't be added to [[Online Orthodox Communities]], though. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 08:38, March 2, 2006 (CST)

:: The blogs I linked were three:

:: **[http://homepage.mac.com/gthurman/iblog/C931234280/index.html The Western Rite section of Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog] (the section I linked) consists primarily of historical documents written by such as Fr. Alexander Turner, first Vicar-General of the Antiochian WRV -- precisely the sort of thing that should be linked to this page as a resource.

:: **[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com Western Orthodoxy] is the blog to which our critic refers. Somehow he scrolled two screens down, skipped a photo and news story about the first Continuing Anglican bishop ever to convert to the WRV, and "glanced" at a sentence in the middle of a post about Western spiritual books, located above several stories concerning objections to the Western Rite and an article written by Fr. Hieromonk (Dom) James Deschene of Christminster Monastery (ROCOR, WR). Further down, he would have found patristic quotations on feast days, Byzantine practices that correlate with the Western Rite, and news about new Western Rite communities entering Oriental Orthodoxy. Our critic "glanced" only a one-sentence aside well down the blog, then hastened here to present it as the only content in the entire blog, which allegedly has "nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy!" How odd.

:: **Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's [http://occidentalis.blogspot.com Occidentalis] is a source for this OrthodoxWiki webpage and is acknowledged as such. Certainly his valuable blog is on-topic.

::As you can see, all are exclusively or near-exclusively topical. As such, I've added them all back to the page under "News and Views." If the editorial team disagrees, feel free to remove them.

::All three blogs are more on-topic for this OrthodoxWiki page than the listservs. This is particularly true of "Occidentalis," which primarily discusses liturgies not currently practiced anywhere in Orthodoxy (I'm not referencing the "Old Sarum Rite" here but others besides that not authorized '''anywhere'''), acts as a clearinghouse for inaccurate anti-WRV rumors, and allows vagante Old Catholics to promote their own churches and titles.

:Too bad my blog http://orthodox-okie.blogspot.com wasn't restore as well - it also is mostly a Western Rite Orthodox blog, though more towards the ROCOR usage (which might be why it was snubbed?) - [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 15:41, March 7, 2006 (CST)

:::Ari, don't imagine slights where there are none (especially during Lent, ''mon frere''). I didn't restore your blog, because occasionally you go 2-3 posts on something unrelated -- and I thought if a detractor was going to go crazy over one stray sentence, perhaps I'd better err on the side of caution. I added your blog to the [[Online Orthodox Communities]]. Feel free to add your blog to the [[Western Rite]] page, too. No offense meant to an outstanding blog. -- '''Willibrord'''

:::: That was tongue in cheek. ;) No problem, I've actually thought about separating all the Western Rite Orthodox (and other Orthodox posts) to a separate blog, separate the wheat out from the tares. That might be a more appropriate link. [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 08:21, March 9, 2006 (CST)

My remarks have been misunderstood and mischaracterized. I didn't say that the blog in question had nothing to do with Western rite Orthodoxy -- I said that the comments about William F. Buckley have nothing to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy. (BTW, I happen to like Mr. Buckley.) And although I didn't see anything outrageous on the website, I have seen other "Orthodox" blogs that do mix in a fair amount of partisan politics, and it's a road I would rather us not go down. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:52, March 9, 2006 (CST)

:: With all due respect, I believe my comments were a fair reading of your words above, and your words above were not a fair reading of my blog nor even the post in question, for the reasons I pointed out. But it seems this discussion has run its course. -- '''Willibrord'''.

::: As a related issue, it is perhaps best not to be involved in the promotion or lack thereof of one's own material. Putting up a link is one thing, but if it becomes a contentious issue, it would seem best for the sake of neutrality to let others decide whether one's material is worthy of inclusion. It's an inherent conflict of interest to do otherwise. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:05, March 9, 2006 (CST)

== Some Corrections re France ==

I deleted some inaccuarate information. (1) The Gallican liturgy was not a usage of the Roman rite. (2) The Gallican rite as restored by Bishop Jean Kovalevsky was almost entirely Western, drawing on various Western missals, sacramentaries, etc. Most of the borrowings from the Byzantine that form part of the ordinary today (which is a small part of the liturgy) were added c. 1960 at the direction of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. (3) Alexis van der Mensbrugghe was not a member of the French Church -- he worked with the French Church and taught at its St Denys Institute while the French Church was still a part of the Moscow Patriarchate. (4) I replaced the decription of the French Church as "in canonical limbo" with "isolation." The use of the term "canonical" here is inappropriate. A good source for understanding this common misuse of the word is Fr Alexander Schmemann's article on the situation of the Church in America. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:41, March 2, 2006 (CST)

== Reworking ==

I have substantially re-worked sections of this article in order to redress perceived (my perception) inadequacies/imbalances and to perhaps bring some sections more up to date

I deleted the section headed "criticisms" simply because I see no reason why we should be required to give space to the critics of Western Rite within Orthodoxy. No one is going to take kindly to my adding a paragraph of criticism to a section of Orthodoxwiki which details the use of Chrysostoma in the diaspora, so I see no reason why we should have a criticism section here.

I filled out some of the details of ROCOR's Western Rite activities and made other more minor adjustments.

I will be only sporadically available over the next few weeks to defend my changes - so please don't take silence for anything other than the fact that I may not have seen a comment.

Suggestion: Do we need to include the picture of the "circus". This is ammunition for the critics of Western Rite - it even causes severe criticism within the ranks of Western Riters. I see no reason for including this weapon which our detractors can and do use to disparage us.

Offieriad-Mynach

First of all, I am not sure why the page is closed off. There are certain numbers of facts that are incorrect. The second largest grouping of Sarum-use parishes in the US is the Milan Synod, an Old Calendarist group. The growth of the Synod has been a direct result of Orthodox people who have been fed up with the Vicariate's policy. The Milan Synod's Western rite numbers are larger than that of ROCOR's. Secondly, the Sarum use in Milan is not significantly different from that of ROCOR. Even Fr Aidan Keller's work on the Sarum rite is not all that different; and that never was the official use of the New York Archdiocese anyway. -- Suaiden

:See the rest of this talk page for why this article was protected - edit-warring, basically, mainly over the l'ECOF. Of course, this is - as far as I can tell - quite unrelated to your points, so you may want to suggest the change on this page, where it can be incorporated into the article. That said, I'm going to leave it to others (currently, tiredness is probably not helping my critical judgement) as to where Milan Synod fits into [[OW:MCB]]. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 12:15, April 27, 2008 (UTC)

And why is the eccleasistical status of the Synod of Milan somewhat down in the artile, while the Orthodox Church of France's was allowed to be placed in the lead section?--[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 18:15, April 28, 2008 (UTC)

:Not sure exactly what is being referred to...?
:In any event, I don't see why either should be placed in the lead section - the point of OW is for those classed under MCB (i.e. the 14/15 autocephalous churches), which neither belong to. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 23:00, April 28, 2008 (UTC)

== Language about the Church of France ==

The language I used is taken from the article on the Orthodox Church of France and was the result of one of the moderators, Fr John, resolving a dispute. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:31, February 13, 2008 (PST)

:: Not exactly. Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] said nothing about "the ancient patriarchates" but mentioned "the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches." That is broader than merely "the ancient patriachates." L'ECOF is not in communion with any local Orthodox Church, either; hence, more precise language is needed. (This is, of course, a sanitized way of noting L'ECOF is not in communion with anyone and hence not canonical.) -- [[User:Willibrord]]

Yes, EXACTLY. I pasted and clipped the sentence from the opening section of the article on the Church of France as Fr John approved it (and froze it). Your use of "canonical" is not accurate language, nor is "recognized Orthodox Churches" particularly illuminating -- recognized by whom? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 06:11, February 14, 2008 (PST)

: In some universally recognised Orthodox Churches, episcopacies are sold. By doing this, these churches are "uncanonical", but are still universally "recognised" churches. The term "uncanonical" is not congruent with either "generally recognised" or "universally recognised". In this context, "uncanonical" really is quite unhelpful. chrisg 2008 Feb 15 o2:51 EAST

::Fr. John's exact wording is vastly superior to yours -- which again is inexact and misleading. By mentioning only "the ancient patriarchates," you may lead the reader to believe L'ECOF is in communion with some other autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church. You are not. Surely you don't wish to mislead anyone. Hence, clarification is needed -- probably on the L'ECOF page, as well.

::"chrisg," such character assassinations, inaccuracies, and malicious generalizations will not be useful on this site. -- [[User:Willibrord]]

The exat wording approved and frozen by Fr John in the article is "The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates." You misrepresent what this says, since is refers not only to the ancient patriarchates, but to "any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates." --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 08:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)

Willibrord's continued attempts to edit the language adds NOTHING to the description except redundancy -- patriachates are autocephalous. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)

:Yet Fr. John's exact wording was more precise than your continual edits.

:If you intention is to communicate that L'ECOF is not in communion with any autocepahlous ''or'' autonomous Orthodox Church, surely you don't object to this being spelled out explicitly. There are those, like myself, who may not understand the nuance of your wording, which implies a different reality. After all, an The Orthodox Church of France is not currently recognized by nor in communion with any [http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_autocephalous_and_autonomous_churches autonomous or autocephalous church] is not necessarily a "patriachal" church, and some (the OCA) are not recognized by all "the ancient patriarchates." Yet the OCA does not recognize L'ECOF, either. Is L'ECOF in communion with some Orthodox Church, any Orthodox Church at all? If not, this wording better describes that and should not be changed to something more ambiguous.

:Looks like it's time for someone to freeze this section again. -- [[User:Willibrord]]

First, it isn't my language that I'm repeating. Second, how does your edit add ANY information? Is there an Orthodox Church you have in mind that is NOT included in the phrase "any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates"? Your language is less precise and less accurate. There are disputes as to what Orthodox Churches are autocephalous, for example. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:13, February 14, 2008 (PST)

: For the last time, not all "autocephalous and autonomous churches" are patriarchal, nor are all those listed on OrthodoxWiki recognized by "the ancient patriarchates." (I'm thinking specifically of the OCA.)
:As noted, Fr. John's [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Talk:Orthodox_Church_of_France#Non-canonical_Orthodox_groups.2Fbodies exact wording] mentioned "the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches." As you note, "recognized Orthodox churches" is not a widely used term; "autocephalous and autonomous churches" is a more understandable substitute. Thus, my edit more closely reflects his wording and intentions than yours. It should replace yours, both here and in the L'ECOF article, and be frozen.-- [[User:Willibrord]]

There is no ambiguity or imprecision in the original wording. The OCA is "in communion with the ancient patriarchates." --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:24, February 14, 2008 (PST)

:There is greater precision on this language (not to mention an additional link to OrthodoxWiki). It seems your language is antiseptic and intended to introduce ambiguity about L'ECOF's actual canonical situation (namely, that it is in communion with no one). L'ECOF is not, in fact, in communion with anyone, is it? Why the roiling displeasure when this is so noted?

:At any rate, this is a matter the administrators will have to settle. --[[User:Willibrord]]

It's not my language, and it's certainly not intended to introduce ambiguity. The language of "in communion" is imprecise, in that other Churches have certainly communed both lay and clerical members of the Church of France -- with the blessing of hierarchs of those Churches. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 09:36, February 14, 2008 (PST)

:I'm not sure how many times this article (and the Orthodox Church of France article) has basically been changed between one edit to the other, but I'm fairly sure it's in the double digits.

:Irrespective, perhaps someone would be able to enlighten on why, in an overtly [[OW:MCB|Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias]]ed Orthodox encyclopaedia, it is not possible to say 'presently outside the Orthodox Church'? It's not as if there is any ambiguity about the status, like there was until recently with ROCOR - this revert war has been between one set of words and the other set, when the point to communicate is that it is currently outside the Church, which can be done without needing to resort to any word above three syllables. — edited by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 09:42, February 14, 2008 (PST)

First, we have had many months of peace and stability on these articles. Second, I have yet to see how changing the statement is in any way an improvement. Third, I think Pistevo's comments are unhelpful. What is the point of mentioning "Chalcedonian" when the French Church is clearly Chalcedonian. And I don't I think saying "outside the Orthodox Church" is at all accurate. When "the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates" includes Churches and hierarchs who certainly view the Church of France as Orthodox (though irregular due to its current lack of an autocephalous sponsor) and have accepted its ordinations and communed its laity and clerics, then it is simply wrong to suggest it is outside the Orthodox Church. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 10:08, February 14, 2008 (PST)

==Article protection==
Gentlemen, this article has been protected to stop the revert-war that has been ongoing today. ''Mainstream Orthodox Church'' is the usual, non-controversial term here on the wiki. This explicitly refers to the [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches]]. It is not controversial to say that a particular group is "not recognized by" or "out of communion with" the churches on that list.

I've adjusted the language to what I regard as more precise and less inflammatory. Though the "is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates" language is true, it could at least be seen to imply a semi-papal ecclesiology (i.e., that the ancient patriarchates define what it means to be Orthodox).

''Uncanonical'' is not generally a useful term here, since its definition in common usage is all over the map. What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of ''not recognized by'' or ''out of communion with'').

If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 11:09, February 14, 2008 (PST)

::I'm apologize that I've let this go on so long.
::I agree with Fr. Andrew about the term "uncanonical" but I'm also concerned about the phrase "Mainstream" (I know we use it in the style manual for our famous NPOV, but I think it fits better there)... If "uncanonical" is too vague, "mainstream" seems too relativist... On a previous revision of the article I had suggested "not recognized any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates." I think Fr. Andrew is right in his caution -- it is not simply the antiquity or prestige of these churches that makes them reference points. At the same time, "not currently recognized by nor in communion with any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church" is certainly written from a "Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias" which is actually fine here. I like Fr. Andrew's sentence: "What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of not recognized by or out of communion with" -- with this, there is no need for additional accusations invective, or high emotions. This is simply a question of fact. With this in mind, I'm going to change "mainstream" back to "any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church."
::If anyone has a better idea of how to work this balance out, let's talk here first. I'll watch the page to keep in the loop. Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

::: "Any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church" has problems, too (e.g., the [[Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church]], the [[Macedonian Orthodox Church]], the [[Montenegrin Orthodox Church]], etc.). There has to be some way to refer to what makes it onto [[list of autocephalous and autonomous churches|this list]] which is both descriptive and exclusive. I prefer ''mainstream'' (linked to the list), since even the OCists often use the term. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 11:33, February 15, 2008 (PST)

::...why not just say that the group isn't in communion with the Orthodox Church? Between MCB and the fact that they're not in communion with, well, anyone, this is both accurate and brief. And, I'm fairly certain that 'autonomous' is superfluous - an autonomous church, in external relations, still under its autocephalous mother church. — edited by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 13:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)

Which brings me back to the original language -- how was referring to "any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates" inadequate? That covers all of the autocephalous and autonomous Churches. It also avoid the less than correct language about "not in communion." A more descriptive statement would be that it exists in a state of "impaired communion" in that at least some of the other Churches recognize the ordinations of the French Church and have (officially) communed their clerics at the altar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)

:Because Rome is an ancient patriarchate?
:Who officially communes them? Recognising the orders is no guarantee - [[Alexis Toth|we recognise(d) Catholic orders]], but that doesn't mean that we're in communion. — edited by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 16:08, February 15, 2008 (PST)

Rome is not "one of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates." I've personally received communion from the head of one autocephalous Church and concelebrated with and received from the head of an autonomous Church, and been allowed to receive at the altar by the senior bishop of one of the ancient Orthodox patriarchates. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 16:22, February 15, 2008 (PST)

:No. It's an ancient patriarchate which is outside the Orthodox Church, demonstrating that age and prestige do not denote within-the-Church-or-not.
:One person's experience would constitute either 'original research' or 'improper sourcing' - and even so, it can be seen as a sequence of isolated cases, rather than acceptance by the Church in question. — edited by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 16:47, February 15, 2008 (PST)

You seem to miss the point of the original wording -- "any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates" excludes Rome and non-"mainstream" Orthodox Churches but includes the OCA, etc. I wasn't trying to "source" the article by my own experience; I merely answered your question on this talk page. However, since I have been directly involved with the hierarchs in question, I do think I am in a better position to address the question than someone who has not been. But it is also more than just my experience; when I was given permission to receive at the altar by the primate's chancellor in one jurisdiction, I was told that this was his Church's policy regarding our clergy -- policy, and not an isolated or idiosyncratic event. That same chancellor later offered to receive me into his Church and give me a parish. When the chancellor of another Church here telephoned a patriarchal bishop in Europe to ask about the status of our clergy, he was told "Of course they are Orthodox." I have not tried to put any of this into the article; I am simply responding to the questions asked. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:10, February 15, 2008 (PST)

:The point of the original wording (or any wording) is to communicate an idea, but what that wording communicates is that being an ancient patriarchate is the primary measure, when it's clearly not. Even if it was, it would simply be a case of double-repetition - the aforementioned Orthodox Churches, in this MCB'd encyclopaedia, constitute the Orthodox Church.
:The point of asking that wasn't to give a bait-and-switch - I was actually asking about any official policies, edicts, proclamations, etc. regarding l'ECOF. Are there any issued, who from, and what are they? — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 17:32, February 15, 2008 (PST)

::Not sure where Pistevo's "bait and switch" comes in, but I'm still interested in other ways to phrase this... — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

:::Just trying to make explicit the fact that the question was not asked for disingeneous reasons... — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 03:37, February 16, 2008 (PST)

==Reverts to inaccuracies about ROCOR, Czechs, Poles==

Saying Christminster is the same of Mount Royal is incorrect. I have personal emails from Dom James (directing edits to the Christminster website) that explain clearly: Mount Royal still exists, and since its reception in 1962, and the election of the Prior as Abbot Augustine in 1963 - remains as Mount Royal (in Florida since 1993, where the Abbot retired in that year.) Christminster is a daughter house, founded in 1993 with Dom James as the Abbot (he was previously the Prior of Mount Royal.) I think some ROCOR clergy have also made other edits: about the Czech, and Polish Western rite - that were deleted (for which we have evidence from diocesan archives, as well as from our clergy who were there.) The Czech diocese was founded in 1898. Twenty-three years later the Serbians along with Met. Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of ROCOR consecrated St. Gorazd (Pavlik) as bishop for that diocese - which remained Western rite for a few more years. More than 'half a dozen parishes', the whole Diocese of Grodno was established with Bp Alexis consecrated as Bishop of Grodno for the received 'Polish Catholic National Church (not the same as the PNCC.) 'Dwindling' doesn't describe what happened to that body: they, like St. Gorazd, were largely arrested by the Nazis and placed in death camps. According to Fr. Michael Keiser (DME-AOCNA), there still exists one Western Rite community in the Polish Church in Poland. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]

==Sarum Usages==

I am not an expert on this topic and do not claim to be, although I have some older and also recent sources dealing with Sarum usage, and am interested in western rites generally, (as well as Eastern and Oriental rites). I also want to avoid generating any heat on the topic. I also understand there is no definitive Sarum Usage, but a number of usages belonging to that family. So with that in mind, I have made a few changes in the body of the article just now and pray no-one is offended by them. It appears to me the reports of 2008 that Met Hilarion of ROCOR permitted the use of Fr Adrian Keller's selections and translations of the Sarum usage, alters the general picture somewhat and the article needed minor corrections to reflect that. If any contributor can improve on what I have altered, please do so. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:42, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

I added a few more changes on top of your changes. Most of the Sarum usages are essentially the same, generally qualifying only as individual local customs. On paper there is virtually no difference between them, though there are minor points of dispute between users of the rites. In actual fact, between Holy Name Abbey's and Fr Aidan's usages (both of which ROCOR approved), the differences are primarily stylistic in terms of rendering the English. I'm not an expert, but seeing this use often and using both the Abbey's and Father Aidan's texts, there is nothing in them that is essentially disparate (and I am certain the Cascades Sarum used in Australia is also very similar), save for their translators' views on how to render individual texts. The whole question of "authentic" versus "inauthentic" Sarum was nothing more than politics, when the texts themselves really weren't that different to begin with. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 02:52, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

==Liturgy==
The article on Liturgy, as it is now, says "The majority celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow, which is an adaptation of the Communion service from the 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer[4]". I earlier questioned the date of 1928. St Tikhon did his preparatory work in the early 1900s. Earlier in the main article it says his work was based on the 1898 (USA) Book of Common Prayer which derived from the Scottish Book of Common Prayer, not the English BCP. The citation given does not seem to support the 1928 date. In addition, one of the professors at the nearby national Episcopalian seminary (Rev Dr Joseph Frary) tells me the Saint Tikhon liturgy is almost completely the same as the 1898 (USA) BCP. Perhaps another citation could be found justifying the 1928 date, or the date changed to 1898. Thanks. [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 02:56, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not against changing the date to 1898; I am not an expert on the date. But almost every source I read, including the footnote given in that essay, says "1928 Book of common prayer". I am not against putting it at 1898. I am against taking out a date altogether until we revert to the intellectually dishonest "ancient Orthodox use of the English Church", which has happened before, resurrecting the whole blasted fight. I have an idea for a fix.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 03:02, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

The Liturgy of St Tikhon was compiled by Fr Jospeh Angwin and was based on the 1928 BCP, which was the use in his parish, the Church of the Incarnation, Detroit. St Tikhon did not produce a liturgy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:04, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

Was that the English 1928 BCP (which parliament rejected)? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:06, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

No, the American BCP. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:10, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

So, strictly speaking, it would be wrong to say the Liturgy of St Tikhon was approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow, but more correct to say the Holy Synod of Moscow approved the concept in principal but the rite now in use is based on the (Protestant Episcopal Church of USA) Book of Common Prayer of 1928? [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:13, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

That's right. Moscow gave permission to St Tikhon to produce an Orthodox version of the American BCP, but that never happened. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 03:16, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

Could you or Joseph perhaps rewrite the article to clarify those details please? There has been widespread confusion over this for many years now. Thanks [[User:Chrisg|Chrisg]] 03:21, January 26, 2009 (UTC)

==Congregations==
Hello, just an fyi... I found this article on the Wikipedia: [[w:Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)|Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)]]; I do not think I saw a reference to this non-canonical group in this article's section on congregations. Anyways, I was wondering if someone with knowledge of this would be able to clarify who this group is in a succint way and add it to the section on Congregations? Or if it even applies here...(i.e ''Old Catholic'' versus ''Western Rite''??) ? 
Cheers [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 01:54, February 6, 2009 (UTC)

: This is one of the [[Independent Orthodox churches]] and as such isn't included in our standard articles. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 12:16, February 6, 2009 (UTC)

== Images under "Congregations" ==

All images should be related to the article's main points. Thus, I deleted the image of the "Old Sarum Rite Missal," which is not being celebrated anywhere within mainline Orthodoxy. (Except, perhaps, in one man's home prayers?) Fr. Alexander Turner was consequential in establishing many, many WRO congregations and seems a more representative image of Western Rite Orthodoxy (in both theory ''and'' practice). However, I kept a link to the image of the non-canonical Milan Synod's authorization of the "Old Sarum Rite Missal" as a footnote, as there had been none.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 12:19, February 15, 2009 (UTC)

:Once again we see aggressive promoters of the "Old Sarum Rite Missal" invade the board. I see in retrospect the picture labeled "Synod of Milan Authorisation of Sarum Missal, ed Fr Aidan Keller" does not actually mention the authorization of the OSRM; it's just a picture of the MS Metropolitan Evloghios stuck in the missal. (Of course, the monastery that produced the "Old Sarum Rite Missal" once had [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4012.0 a picture of the Patriarch of Antioch in its vestibule with the words "Our Patriarch" on it], as though they were Antiochian, so this picture doesn't carry much weight for me.) It would be an odd authorization, because Abp. John LoBue did NOT authorize its use in his Eastern USA archdiocese, preferring his own (superior) translation. To my knowledge, the OSRM was not used MS-wide (or widely even within the Western USA archdiocese).
:I should add, '''I'm not sure a missal that is not celebrated anywhere in Orthodoxy''' (with the possible exception of a spare room in one person's sister's apartment) '''is even appropriate to an article on the Western Rite and its "Congregations."''' Since I was [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:Willibrord#Vandalism falsely accused] of [[OrthodoxWiki:Vandalism|"vandalism"]] for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own. But frankly, Orthodox priests use all sorts of things for their private prayers; the moderators may want to consider whether one person's private prayers are material to the page at all. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 21:40, February 15, 2009 (UTC)

"DELETED PER WILLIBRORD'S REQUEST".

Fr Aidan's contribution to Western Rite Orthodoxy has been substantial, and while it is controversial to some, it shouldn't be ignored. His work is far from simply "celebrated in a room in his sister's house", and as I can't even see the link you have put up, I see no real reason to believe this bizzare claim about the picture. It should be noted that Fr Aidan's work is occasionally consulted in the Eastern Archdiocese, and the widely popular "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" is considered an invaluable resource by many. As one who has access to both translations, I see value in both of them.

It is an awful shame that you have this amazing disdain for a priest of a sister church of yours that you have gone on this tangent. I find the politicizing of this article on your part totally despicable, and will continue making corrections and now adding information you deleted.

For the record there is no such thing as a "Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy". Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts. I also found a better picture for "congregations" to use.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 01:46, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

== Images under "Congregations" 2==

::Joseph, it seems your comments meet the OrthodoxWiki definition of [http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Disciplinary_policy#Uncivil_behavior Uncivil Behavior] in full: ''ad hominem'' name-calling, imputing motives, and attributing an emotional state/ulterior motive to others. It certainly does not promote communication.

:: We have debated this before on other WR Talk pages, but I will reiterate: OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for subjective opinions but an encyclopedia containing objective facts.

::The facts remain clear:
::a) OrthodoxWiki is an encyclopedia of objective fact, not the place to express your opinion of the "value" of various books;
::b) This article has a subhead about WRO "Congregations";
::c) The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is not celebrated by any congregation;
::d) If one person is praying it privately while celebrating the Byzantine liturgy, it is not particularly relevant to the Western Rite, period. Priests pray a variety of things privately with bishops' approval.

::For some reason, supporters of the "Old Sarum Rite Missal" seem intent on using the internet to equate "true" WRO with the OSRM, but OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for such advocacy.

::Other edits seem incorrect, as well:

::"There is no no such thing as a 'Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy'." Interesting; I'll have to let the hieromonks and faithful associated with Holyrood and St. Petroc know that. They all seem to think otherwise. Fr. Michael would be the first to say the St. Petroc recension of Sarum bears little resemblance to the OSRM.

::"Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts." According to Hieromonk David, he celebrates the Mt. Royal Order of Mass, which is available online and is clearly not the Milan Synod text. That would be impossible, since it predates the Milan Synod texts; Mt. Royal was [http://www.westernorthodox.ca received into Orthodoxy in 1962], 35 years before the MS had any Western Rite parishes.

::You state Hieromonk David uses "propers" from the Milan Synod; if true, that would be different than the Ordinary. ''If'' even that fact were true, the fact would remain that no quotation from Hieromonk David substantiates this. Can you provide one?

::Whatever your opinion of Benjamin Andersen's Occidentalis blog, '''it does not does not give you the right to remove it as a source''' for this article. It was/is clearly an invaluable contribution that informed much of this entry.

::You added a nice bit about Villate; I see no reason to take that out. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:37, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

I would ascribe nothing but malice to spreading an unsubstantiated claim of theft even after repeated attempts at correction. (http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/07/orthodox-prayers-of-old-england-buyers.html)

You seem to assume that I myself am a partisan of the OSRM in question. I am not. Thus I did not get involved until your behavior seemed motivated by spite.

You are being dishonest about Holyrood. The text is only the text of the invariable parts of the service, which are almost the same as English translations of the Tridentine anyway. ALL the moveable parts come from the Milan Synod usages. Any quote of his usage would be anecdotal. Same on your part. However, I am not against removing mention of him altogether.

RE: the blog-- to whom was it invaluable? Not me; I am not part of the 'club'. I am simply restating a previous complaint.

Unless you can show that what I added was NOT factually correct, please, just stop.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:01, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

A couple of other points--

1) A major difference between the Milan texts and others is the inclusion of sequences and other parts of the texts that make a major difference in the size of the liturgy. Because of this, a simple Gregorian Mass and Sarum are very different. The ordinary is almost the same across the board. Thus, the liturgy itself would appear as that of a Milan Synod liturgy.

2) I wasn't calling you Torquemada; I meant that again the "Inquisition" mindset was returning, and that this was an argument against using post-schism services.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:23, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

Gentlemen: Take a deep breath. Enhance your calm. Cease inspiring the administration to just delete every WR article and put a permanent ban on their re-creation.

Thanks! :)

BTW, Mr. Andersen's weblog was indeed used as a source for the original formation of this article (I wrote it). Whether it remains a source or not depends on the current content. OW articles are never set in stone, so their sources can't be, either. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 15:16, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::Perhaps as a moderator and original author you could peruse the article as it stands and verify that Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's blog remains a source? (I think it obviously does, but one read would verify it.) Joseph's argument, as far as I can tell, is that the blog should not be listed as a source because he (Joseph) has not been invited to participate in it.

::Otherwise, the matter is simply one of verifiable facts vs. speculation. Generally articles are ill served by replacing sourced statements with unsourced statements and matters that are off-topic.

::I'm not sure anything I've done has shown anything other than calm, good form, and attention to fact/source. '''There is, however, a personal slander of me on this page''' (concerning my blog); as such, I should either answer it or ask that it be deleted. I think the latter would be most appropriate. Please advise.
--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:13, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

I was not the first to make the complaint, though I noted this, this time around, for the same reason: Information which can only be gained through personal access should not be allowed. If we cannot gain access through a library nor even an archeological dig I question its value. Anything could be cited. Can you follow that logic?

As for just following 'good sound form', you realize your contributions can be tracked, right?

And as for the "Torquemada" issue, as anyone can see on recentchanges, I've been given a second warning.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:28, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::I was referring to this slander: "I would ascribe nothing but malice to spreading an unsubstantiated claim of theft even after repeated attempts at correction. (http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/07/orthodox-prayers-of-old-england-buyers.html)." This is off-topic, personal, and wrong. As such, it should be deleted.

::The fact that a blog is "closed" does not mean it did not serve as a source for this article. And Subdn. Benjamin Andersen has always been good about adding people who wish to see his blog, provided he doesn't feel they are acting in bad faith. As for your comparison: we cannot lay our hands on, for instance, private correspondence by historical figures, but historians can -- and they can write about what they see. That does not change the fact that the correspondence serves as a source of their biographies.

::I had not seen the second warning. Section deleted. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:38, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

You are correct. It *is* personal. Which is why I put it up. I believe your behavior is not based on doing right by the wiki but exacting a continued attack on Father Aidan Keller. (More proof can be found by searching "Keller" on the blog.) In that particular case, I note that you ignored attempts at factual correction (the customer received his book) because at least two attempts were my own. I thought what was done was unethical, and I stand by that. I also have the verbal testimony of Bp Jerome (Shaw) concerning your actions towards his reception in ROCOR.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:47, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

As for why that is relevant, see here: [http://orthodoxwiki.org/OrthodoxWiki:Frequently_Asked_Questions#But_I.27m_here_to_bring_you_The_Truth.21]

This is simply not the place to continue an argument with Fr Aidan Keller (or about him) on these subjects. If you want to try to have me banned at this point go ahead. But now I am not ascribing a motive. I put up a link. That it *appears* that you have *personal issues* with Fr Aidan is obvious to any objective reader, thus making the motivations behind your deletions suspect.

I put up all sorts of things "I don't like" on this Wiki-- because they are verifiable facts. Where I don't cite, I delete. Simple. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 19:09, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

Western Rite Criticism

2009-02-16T19:02:05Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Lack of liturgical continuity */ added citations

{{westernrite}}
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite. Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite Eucharist. However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy. There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.

==Overview==
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen. In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes—and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes—continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.

==Byzantine only==
Some argue that there is only the Byzantine liturgical tradition can be viable within the Church. The argument's major weakness is that it ignores the wide liturgical variety characteristic of the first millennium of the Church's history. Many Orthodox Christians currently boast of the Church's liturgical homogeneity, claiming that, no matter where one might go in the Orthodox world, the [[liturgy]] will be familiar, even if it's in another language. However, their first millennium counterparts would have been incapable of making such a claim—even if only the Eastern liturgical tradition were taken into account. It wasn't until the 13th century that the tradition of the Great Church (i.e., [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]]) became normative for the whole of Orthodoxy.

==Divisiveness==
Another criticism is that the Western Rite is inherently divisive. Following different liturgical traditions than their neighboring Byzantine Rite Orthodox Christians, those using the Western Rite do not share liturgical unity with them and present an unfamiliar face to the majority of Orthodox Christians. Again, this argument is based on the relatively new notion of liturgical homogeneity. Likewise, differences exist between the various uses of the Byzantine Rite.

==An Orthodox Unia?==
Related to liturgical division, the question of ongoing administrative division has been raised. The situation of Western Orthodox parishes has been compared with the status of the autonomous [[Uniate]] churches under the [[Roman Catholic Church]]. For centuries, there have been hierarchical churches in [[full communion]] with and in subjection to the Vatican, but which the Pope allows to follow Byzantine liturgical customs and rules. The Uniates, despite usages that more closely resemble the majority of Orthodox Christians, share a common dogmatic belief with Latin Rite Catholics. Analogously, the Western Rite Orthodox share the same faith as their Byzantine Rite Orthodox brethren.

However, unlike the [[Uniates]], Western Rite Orthodox congregations are not the result of large-scale ecclesiastical political machinations and [[schism]] but rather of small-scale genuine conversion to Orthodoxy by individuals and congregations. Also, Western Rite congregations all adhere to the same bishops as their Byzantine brethren; they do not constitute a separate church of their own, unlike the Byzantine Catholics ("Uniates") within Roman Catholicism. Criticism of the Western Rite based on its similarity with the Uniates has been called guilt by association—overplaying a superficial similarity of form. Because the ideas are analogous, the argument goes, they must therefore both be inauthentic developments. Yet the more firmly established criticisms of Uniatism usually have nothing to do with rite but rather with dogma, ecclesiology, and allegedly subversive missionary work.

==Conversion without conversion==
Another criticism often leveled against the Western Rite is based on the mainly [[convert]] makeup of most of its parishes. The argument states that such Christians want to be Orthodox but "not too Orthodox," so they keep their familiar rites under a new bishop. The unstated assumption behind this argument, however, is similar to the argument against all non-Byzantine liturgical traditions: That Orthodoxy includes only the Byzantine Rite, and so if one wants to be truly Orthodox, one must also be Eastern. Again, history shows otherwise.

Additionally, this argument also fails to take into account the longstanding history of some of these parishes. For many of them, the Western Rite with an Orthodox Christian faith (though certainly sometimes outside canonical bounds) genuinely is the faith of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. The argument fails to address the question of substance—that is, it does not address whether and why the Western Rite is or is not actually Orthodox.

It is an accident of history that the Western Rite is not yet firmly established again within the Orthodox Church. That most of its adherents are converts is not germane to the question of its Orthodoxy. One might level the same accusation at predominantly convert Byzantine Rite parishes, that they need to learn to give up everything familiar in order to become Orthodox, whether it's language, culture, or some other facet of life. Oddly enough, some have argued precisely that, saying, for instance, that English is incapable of expressing the Orthodox faith.

==Lack of liturgical continuity==
Finally, more historically minded criticisms of the Western Rite usually center around the idea that it is untenable to try to revive a liturgical tradition which was lost centuries ago when the West fell away from the [[Orthodox Church]]. This argument essentially states that, because the Western Rite died out in the Church, and because a continuous living tradition is a necessary element of liturgical practice, the Western Rite ought to be abandoned and only developments from the Byzantine Rite ought to be pursued.

Another response to such criticisms is that the the vast majority of the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]]. The ordinary of the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory]], for example, predates the schism. (Many devotions developed after the schism with which critics take issue are in fact paraliturgical.)

Further, a number of the pre-schism texts (not simply the ordinary but the propers) have been fully restored and translated, such as the [[Sarum Rite]], a local use of the [[Roman rite]] from the pre-schismatic period[http://books.google.com/books?as_brr=1&id=cyUBAAAAQAAJ&dq=Rouen+Missal&jtp=615#PRA1-PR23,M1]. (The historicity of this claim is disputed by modern Anglican scholars, however.[http://anglicansociety.org/corner/sarum_use.html]) Translations of the Sarum rite are currently utilized in [[ROCOR]] as well as the [[Old Calendarists|Old Calendarist]] [[Holy Synod of Milan|Milan Synod]]. As well, the Ambrosian rite has been used on occasion by the [[Church of Russia|Moscow Patriarchate]].

Further, the now fairly well-known [[Liturgy of St. James]] once fell out of use throughout most of the Church and has now been revived in many places to be celebrated on [[October 23]].

==External links==
===Apologiae===
*From [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ westernorthodox.blogspot.com]:
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html The Western Rite is Not "Reverse Uniatism"]
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.
*From [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ www.westernorthodox.com]:
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite "FAQ"
*[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]

===Criticism===
*[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]
*From [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/index.html www.holy-trinity.org/modern]:
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the "Western Rite"], by Fr. Alexander Schmemann
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on "Western Rite"]
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the "Western Rite" In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The "Western Rite": Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson

[[Category:Western Rite]]

Western Rite Criticism

2009-02-16T18:54:10Z

JosephSuaiden: corrected text in line with Willibrord's suggestion

{{westernrite}}
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite. Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite Eucharist. However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy. There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.

==Overview==
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen. In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes—and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes—continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.

==Byzantine only==
Some argue that there is only the Byzantine liturgical tradition can be viable within the Church. The argument's major weakness is that it ignores the wide liturgical variety characteristic of the first millennium of the Church's history. Many Orthodox Christians currently boast of the Church's liturgical homogeneity, claiming that, no matter where one might go in the Orthodox world, the [[liturgy]] will be familiar, even if it's in another language. However, their first millennium counterparts would have been incapable of making such a claim—even if only the Eastern liturgical tradition were taken into account. It wasn't until the 13th century that the tradition of the Great Church (i.e., [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]]) became normative for the whole of Orthodoxy.

==Divisiveness==
Another criticism is that the Western Rite is inherently divisive. Following different liturgical traditions than their neighboring Byzantine Rite Orthodox Christians, those using the Western Rite do not share liturgical unity with them and present an unfamiliar face to the majority of Orthodox Christians. Again, this argument is based on the relatively new notion of liturgical homogeneity. Likewise, differences exist between the various uses of the Byzantine Rite.

==An Orthodox Unia?==
Related to liturgical division, the question of ongoing administrative division has been raised. The situation of Western Orthodox parishes has been compared with the status of the autonomous [[Uniate]] churches under the [[Roman Catholic Church]]. For centuries, there have been hierarchical churches in [[full communion]] with and in subjection to the Vatican, but which the Pope allows to follow Byzantine liturgical customs and rules. The Uniates, despite usages that more closely resemble the majority of Orthodox Christians, share a common dogmatic belief with Latin Rite Catholics. Analogously, the Western Rite Orthodox share the same faith as their Byzantine Rite Orthodox brethren.

However, unlike the [[Uniates]], Western Rite Orthodox congregations are not the result of large-scale ecclesiastical political machinations and [[schism]] but rather of small-scale genuine conversion to Orthodoxy by individuals and congregations. Also, Western Rite congregations all adhere to the same bishops as their Byzantine brethren; they do not constitute a separate church of their own, unlike the Byzantine Catholics ("Uniates") within Roman Catholicism. Criticism of the Western Rite based on its similarity with the Uniates has been called guilt by association—overplaying a superficial similarity of form. Because the ideas are analogous, the argument goes, they must therefore both be inauthentic developments. Yet the more firmly established criticisms of Uniatism usually have nothing to do with rite but rather with dogma, ecclesiology, and allegedly subversive missionary work.

==Conversion without conversion==
Another criticism often leveled against the Western Rite is based on the mainly [[convert]] makeup of most of its parishes. The argument states that such Christians want to be Orthodox but "not too Orthodox," so they keep their familiar rites under a new bishop. The unstated assumption behind this argument, however, is similar to the argument against all non-Byzantine liturgical traditions: That Orthodoxy includes only the Byzantine Rite, and so if one wants to be truly Orthodox, one must also be Eastern. Again, history shows otherwise.

Additionally, this argument also fails to take into account the longstanding history of some of these parishes. For many of them, the Western Rite with an Orthodox Christian faith (though certainly sometimes outside canonical bounds) genuinely is the faith of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. The argument fails to address the question of substance—that is, it does not address whether and why the Western Rite is or is not actually Orthodox.

It is an accident of history that the Western Rite is not yet firmly established again within the Orthodox Church. That most of its adherents are converts is not germane to the question of its Orthodoxy. One might level the same accusation at predominantly convert Byzantine Rite parishes, that they need to learn to give up everything familiar in order to become Orthodox, whether it's language, culture, or some other facet of life. Oddly enough, some have argued precisely that, saying, for instance, that English is incapable of expressing the Orthodox faith.

==Lack of liturgical continuity==
Finally, more historically minded criticisms of the Western Rite usually center around the idea that it is untenable to try to revive a liturgical tradition which was lost centuries ago when the West fell away from the [[Orthodox Church]]. This argument essentially states that, because the Western Rite died out in the Church, and because a continuous living tradition is a necessary element of liturgical practice, the Western Rite ought to be abandoned and only developments from the Byzantine Rite ought to be pursued.

Another response to such criticisms is that the the vast majority of the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]]. The ordinary of the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory]], for example, predates the schism. (Many devotions developed after the schism with which critics take issue are in fact paraliturgical.)

Further, a number of the pre-schism texts (not simply the ordinary but the propers) have been fully restored and translated, such as the [[Sarum Rite]], a local use of the [[Roman rite]] from the pre-schismatic period. (The historicity of this claim is disputed by modern Anglican scholars, however.) Translations of the Sarum rite are currently utilized in [[ROCOR]] as well as the [[Old Calendarists|Old Calendarist]] [[Holy Synod of Milan|Milan Synod]]. As well, the Ambrosian rite has been used on occasion by the [[Church of Russia|Moscow Patriarchate]].

Further, the now fairly well-known [[Liturgy of St. James]] once fell out of use throughout most of the Church and has now been revived in many places to be celebrated on [[October 23]].

==External links==
===Apologiae===
*From [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ westernorthodox.blogspot.com]:
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html The Western Rite is Not "Reverse Uniatism"]
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.
*From [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ www.westernorthodox.com]:
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite "FAQ"
*[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]

===Criticism===
*[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]
*From [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/index.html www.holy-trinity.org/modern]:
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the "Western Rite"], by Fr. Alexander Schmemann
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on "Western Rite"]
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the "Western Rite" In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The "Western Rite": Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson

[[Category:Western Rite]]

Talk:Western Rite Criticism

2009-02-16T18:51:59Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Liturgical Continuity */

==Deleting Links==
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)

:I believe you are confused on two counts:

:1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by "Juliandelphiki." That's clear if you look in the [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite_Criticism&diff=59197&oldid=35640 history]. It was [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Western_Rite&diff=59572&oldid=59255 added to the original "Western Rite" article] by "Ephremsyrianos" -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog.
:2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the "end times" (!). Those who have noticed it have either [http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/please-explain-2/ mocked] it or [http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/topic/2528 lamented] its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- [[User:Willibrord]].

::I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)

:: Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message "I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels" (or words to that effect). So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted. (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.) —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)

== Liturgical Continuity ==

Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the ''Aufer a Nobis'', the ''Oramus te'', the Collect for Purity, the ''Kyrie'', the ''Gloria'', the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
:Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for ''that''). Please review this topic sentence: "In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it." Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, ''some parts'' of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, "the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]]." If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

: From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context. Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one). —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::I think it falls under the concept of the "Liturgical Continuity" objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from "the Orthodox era." The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

Oh! Well, in that case that can be easily fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 17:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::The overarching issue is that it's unnecessary: the criticism has been made succinctly. And answered.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:54, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, no, I think it needs fixing. Thank you for your suggestion!--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:06, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::The trouble is it is highly dubious that the Sarum Rite is "pre-Schism," much less in any of the translations being celebrated within Orthodoxy. I suspect any Ambrosian Rite that is approved also contains elements that post-date 1054 A.D. I am not certain, off the top of my head, that the entire Ordinary of the Liturgy of St. Gregory is pre-Schism (that is, before 1054 -- although nearly all of it was/is). The general idea is best conveyed succinctly in the article already: "Even then, the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]]." --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:20, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

If you doubt that the Sarum Rite is pre-schism, please address it on the Sarum rite page. The general understanding of virtually all historians on the rite is that it is easily traced to the 11th century.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:32, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

::Actually, the [[Sarum Use]] page addresses that: "The Sarum rite as known was probably arranged by Richard Le Poore, who moved the See from Old Sarum to New Sarum (Salisbury) in the 13th c." Fr. Andrew Damick has written about this subject on this board himself, as I recall. It's hardly a new objection, much less is your pre-Schism claim "the general understanding of virtually all historians." --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 18:40, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

Then you are ignoring the corpus of historical research for modern Anglican scholarship. This, however, can be fixed.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 18:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Western Rite

2009-02-16T18:47:25Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Images under "Congregations" 2 */

Talk:Western Rite Criticism

2009-02-16T18:32:19Z

JosephSuaiden: /* Liturgical Continuity */

Western Rite Criticism

2009-02-16T18:29:31Z

JosephSuaiden: Undo revision 80943 -- on what grounds?

{{westernrite}}
The Western Rite in the Orthodox Church is not without its critics. Objections are made in regards to desire for liturgical uniformity within Orthodoxy and fears that the Western Rite would produce division within the Church. Some question the sincerity of Western Rite converts, just as some question the conversions of those within the Byzantine Rite. Finally, some complain about a lack of organic liturgical continuity, or will not attend a Western Rite Eucharist. However, no Orthodox parish may deny the Eucharist to visiting faithful of the canonical Western Rite, regardless of their feelings about the concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy. There have been no schisms within the episcopacy of the Orthodox Church regarding the issue of Western Rite parishes.

==Overview==
Whether the Western Rite will grow in its acceptance by Orthodox Christians who follow the Byzantine Rite remains to be seen. In the meantime, the Orthodox bishops who oversee Western Rite parishes—and many who oversee no Western Rite parishes—continue to declare their Western flocks to be true Orthodox Christians and regard them as fully in communion with the rest of the Church.

==Byzantine only==
Some argue that there is only the Byzantine liturgical tradition can be viable within the Church. The argument's major weakness is that it ignores the wide liturgical variety characteristic of the first millennium of the Church's history. Many Orthodox Christians currently boast of the Church's liturgical homogeneity, claiming that, no matter where one might go in the Orthodox world, the [[liturgy]] will be familiar, even if it's in another language. However, their first millennium counterparts would have been incapable of making such a claim—even if only the Eastern liturgical tradition were taken into account. It wasn't until the 13th century that the tradition of the Great Church (i.e., [[Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)|Hagia Sophia]]) became normative for the whole of Orthodoxy.

==Divisiveness==
Another criticism is that the Western Rite is inherently divisive. Following different liturgical traditions than their neighboring Byzantine Rite Orthodox Christians, those using the Western Rite do not share liturgical unity with them and present an unfamiliar face to the majority of Orthodox Christians. Again, this argument is based on the relatively new notion of liturgical homogeneity. Likewise, differences exist between the various uses of the Byzantine Rite.

==An Orthodox Unia?==
Related to liturgical division, the question of ongoing administrative division has been raised. The situation of Western Orthodox parishes has been compared with the status of the autonomous [[Uniate]] churches under the [[Roman Catholic Church]]. For centuries, there have been hierarchical churches in [[full communion]] with and in subjection to the Vatican, but which the Pope allows to follow Byzantine liturgical customs and rules. The Uniates, despite usages that more closely resemble the majority of Orthodox Christians, share a common dogmatic belief with Latin Rite Catholics. Analogously, the Western Rite Orthodox share the same faith as their Byzantine Rite Orthodox brethren.

However, unlike the [[Uniates]], Western Rite Orthodox congregations are not the result of large-scale ecclesiastical political machinations and [[schism]] but rather of small-scale genuine conversion to Orthodoxy by individuals and congregations. Also, Western Rite congregations all adhere to the same bishops as their Byzantine brethren; they do not constitute a separate church of their own, unlike the Byzantine Catholics ("Uniates") within Roman Catholicism. Criticism of the Western Rite based on its similarity with the Uniates has been called guilt by association—overplaying a superficial similarity of form. Because the ideas are analogous, the argument goes, they must therefore both be inauthentic developments. Yet the more firmly established criticisms of Uniatism usually have nothing to do with rite but rather with dogma, ecclesiology, and allegedly subversive missionary work.

==Conversion without conversion==
Another criticism often leveled against the Western Rite is based on the mainly [[convert]] makeup of most of its parishes. The argument states that such Christians want to be Orthodox but "not too Orthodox," so they keep their familiar rites under a new bishop. The unstated assumption behind this argument, however, is similar to the argument against all non-Byzantine liturgical traditions: That Orthodoxy includes only the Byzantine Rite, and so if one wants to be truly Orthodox, one must also be Eastern. Again, history shows otherwise.

Additionally, this argument also fails to take into account the longstanding history of some of these parishes. For many of them, the Western Rite with an Orthodox Christian faith (though certainly sometimes outside canonical bounds) genuinely is the faith of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. The argument fails to address the question of substance—that is, it does not address whether and why the Western Rite is or is not actually Orthodox.

It is an accident of history that the Western Rite is not yet firmly established again within the Orthodox Church. That most of its adherents are converts is not germane to the question of its Orthodoxy. One might level the same accusation at predominantly convert Byzantine Rite parishes, that they need to learn to give up everything familiar in order to become Orthodox, whether it's language, culture, or some other facet of life. Oddly enough, some have argued precisely that, saying, for instance, that English is incapable of expressing the Orthodox faith.

==Lack of liturgical continuity==
Finally, more historically minded criticisms of the Western Rite usually center around the idea that it is untenable to try to revive a liturgical tradition which was lost centuries ago when the West fell away from the [[Orthodox Church]]. This argument essentially states that, because the Western Rite died out in the Church, and because a continuous living tradition is a necessary element of liturgical practice, the Western Rite ought to be abandoned and only developments from the Byzantine Rite ought to be pursued.

In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the [[molieben]]), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the [[typikon]] when it first came into the form we now know it.

Another response to such criticisms is that the the vast majority of the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the [[Great Schism]]. The ordinary of the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory]], for example, predates the schism. (Many devotions developed after the schism with which critics take issue are in fact paraliturgical.)

Further, a number of the pre-schism texts (not simply the ordinary but the propers) have been fully restored and translated, such as the [[Sarum Rite]], a local use of the [[Roman rite]] from the pre-schismatic period. Translations of the Sarum rite are currently utilized in [[ROCOR]] as well as the [[Old Calendarists|Old Calendarist]] [[Holy Synod of Milan|Milan Synod]]. As well, the Ambrosian rite has been used on occasion by the [[Church of Russia|Moscow Patriarchate]].

Bishop [[Jerome (Shaw) of Manhattan]] (ROCOR) also argues the little-known Liturgy of St. Peter, a [[liturgy]] outwardly identical to that of the Byzantine rite with the ancient Gregorian canon in its place, never fell out of use within Orthodoxy. The Old Believers and others celebrated this, explicitly endorsing the validity of the Western canon. At present, the historicity of this assertion is not universally accepted.

Further, the now fairly well-known [[Liturgy of St. James]] once fell out of use throughout most of the Church and has now been revived in many places to be celebrated on [[October 23]].

==External links==
===Apologiae===
*From [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ westernorthodox.blogspot.com]:
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html The Western Rite is Not "Reverse Uniatism"]
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/message-from-metropolitan-western-rite.html Met. PHILIP (Saliba)'s Promise]: Western Rite churches will not be Byzantized.
**[http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/search/label/Anti-WR%20Criticism Dealing with Anti-WR Criticism], from the Western Orthodoxy blog.
*From [http://www.westernorthodox.com/ www.westernorthodox.com]:
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/basil Comments on the Western Rite] by Bishop [[Basil (Essey) of Wichita]]
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/Lux-Occidentalis Lux Occidentalis (PDF)] ''The Orthodox Western Rite and the Liturgical Tradition of Western Orthodox Christianity, with reference to The Orthodox Missal, Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, NJ, 1995'' by the Rev'd John Charles Connely
**[http://www.westernorthodox.com/greekdenver Doctrinal Issues: Western Rite Orthodoxy], from the ''Diocesan News for Clergy and Laity'' (February 1995), Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver
*[http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm Western Rite Orthodoxy: Its history, its validity, and its opportunity], by Annette Milkovich, including an interview with Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla, constituting a rough Western Rite "FAQ"
*[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/sergius.html On the Question of Western Orthodoxy], by Patriarch [[Sergius I (Stragorodsky) of Moscow]] in a letter to [[Vladimir Lossky]]

===Criticism===
*[http://www.schmemann.org/byhim/westernrite.html The Western Rite], by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]]
*From [http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/index.html www.holy-trinity.org/modern]:
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/schmemann.html Notes and Comments on the "Western Rite"], by Fr. Alexander Schmemann
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html News: Bishop Anthony Issues Encyclical on "Western Rite"]
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/correspondence.html Correspondence on the Western Rite] between Bishop [[Anthony (Gergiannakis) of San Francisco]] and Fr. Paul W.S. Schneirla
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html Some Thoughts on the "Western Rite" In Orthodoxy], by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia]]
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/tsichlis.html The Western Rite - Some Final Comments], by Fr. [[Steven Peter Tsichlis]]
**[http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/johnson.html The "Western Rite": Is It Right for the Orthodox?], by Fr. Michael Johnson

[[Category:Western Rite]]