OrthodoxWiki - User contributions [en]

User talk:Pistevo

2009-06-24T15:55:32Z

Iliada: Talk addition

* [[User_talk:Pistevo/Archive_05|Archive 2005]]
* [[User_talk:Pistevo/Archive_06|Archive 2006]]

== Accept Revised? ==

Dear Pistevo,

There's been a request to use some of your edited content on Wikipedia. Would you mind putting the [[Template:Acceptrevised|Acceptrevised]] template on your user page to clarify the copyright (you can add it like this: <nowiki>{{acceptrevised}}</nowiki>? That would be very helpful! Thanks, — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 08:53, April 25, 2007 (PDT)

== Monastery of Pantanassa, Australia ==
Hi Pistevo, I thought I might send you a little note to let you know that I have grown up with two of the monks at this monastery (before they were monks). As such, one of the monk's sister is my close friend and she has a million to one photos of this monastery. I have asked her if she would email me some so that we can upload them onto this site. Since you have been looking after all the Australian related pages i thought I might let you know so that you can upload pictures and format them yourself. Do you have an email? I dont know how to give you my email in a private way so you can contact me ...any ideas? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:30, January 20, 2008 (PST)

PS. I also visit the monastery of Panaghia Gorgoipikoos in Geelong on a monthly basis and am also very close to the abbess. Is there any information you would like me to get from there that you think would be a good idea for this site. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:33, January 20, 2008 (PST)

==List of Parishes in Victoria article==
Hi Pistevo, in the Sandbox ...its in a previous version ... I have a list of the Parishes in Victoria sorted (with only a few left to go) ... Do you think that this format works? If the answer is yes, how do I go about changing the original article? Do i need to get a adminstrators vote or do I need to simply speak with the originator of the article (you) in this instance? In any case, could you take a look and tell me what you think before I sort of go about 'rapping up' that loose end ... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:36, March 20, 2008 (PDT)
:AusGreek net ... I just wanted to point out that it had many links that you might have wanted to incorporate into the articles ... As for the parishes list ... I am definately aware of the fact that there are various outside of Melbourne as such ... I think how you dealt with it in the original article is still very much appropriate ...also, once I have the parishes sorted into the geographical councils/suburgbs i wont include those councils/suburbs that are empty, I guess i wanted your thoughts about it bc I had promised to help you out but I was stuck on how to do it, should I do it at the Council level and then have the suburbs as a second level or just list according to suburbs and leave it at that ...[[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 18:06, March 20, 2008 (PDT)

== Please explain.. ==
Why you have endorsed the revision of the article you rolled back to, before protecting the article? Thank you. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 13:29, March 6, 2008 (PST)

Thank you for your explanation, that reveals your siding with one side in the dispute. Such a behavior is not appropriate for a sysop, and I will have to question your competence before respective authorities further. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 05:13, March 7, 2008 (PST)

==Australian Orthodox weblinks==
Do you know about this site [http://www.ausgreeknet.com/thechurch.htm AusGREEK NET.COM]? I figure you might like to use it in updating the OrthodoxWiki Australian articles ... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:39, March 20, 2008 (PDT)

== Chrysostom Homily ==
I was just thinking half hour ago that it was time to update that section and you went ahead and did it!! Xristos Anesti! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:07, April 29, 2008 (UTC)

== I need help ==

Hello,
I would like to post my dissertation from Pennsylvania State University entitled THE RELEVANCE OF THE MARONITE AND MELKITE CHURCHES WITHIN THE CATHOLIC ECCLESIAL COMMUNION
I guess I need technical help more than anything, as I am not sure how this website works and am not technically inclined

Thank you very much

Fortiorcantor555

== Rolling back ==

This vandal worked with a pair of accounts. Rolling back won't work. :/ We have to go into each article's history and find a version before these two accounts got into it. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 11:51, June 10, 2008 (UTC)

: Not sure. In any event, this pairing technique is particularly annoying. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 11:57, June 10, 2008 (UTC)

== Active appeal ==

There's currently an active appeal over at [[OrthodoxWiki talk:Administrators]]. If as an admin, you would like to participate, please feel free to do so. Thanks! —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 16:02, August 19, 2008 (UTC)

==Africa==
Thanks for stepping on correcting the titles for the bishops. I had gotten confused on some of them, based on the Patriarchate's texts and other comments. I was especially confused on Kenya when I tries to put together items for Successions. You seem more informed on Africa, so I hope you may have info to extend the successions of the older dioceses. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 00:00, August 28, 2008 (UTC)

== URGENT - Ambush by computer generated Users ==
Hi, we are being ambushed by computer generated User accounts ... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:09, December 17, 2008 (UTC)
This is the first creation log:
(User creation log); 03:34 . . NovicOolol (Talk | contribs) (Created the user NovicOolol (Talk | contribs))

==OSRM article?!?!==

Am I reading what you said right on the Admins page? You want an OSRM (or -- just slightly safer-- a comparative Sarum rite) article? Do you not envision the bloodshed of at least a half-dozen or so booted users that would ensue off such, myself likely unwillingly included? --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:21, February 18, 2009 (UTC)

== Req for involvement ==

Hey, would you mind taking a look at the comments [[User_talk:ASDamick#Is_WO_a_live_forum_of_information_or_is_it_selective_in_the_information_it_displays.3F|here]] and getting involved? I reverted for what seemed to me to be obvious reasons (esp. somewhat POV language), but as our Ozzie-in-Chief, I thought perhaps you might be better suited to handle this. Thanks! —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 13:10, April 24, 2009 (UTC)

== Appologies and thanks... ==

Pistevo,

I know my prior post may have appeared hostile and on the front foot. For this I appologise both to yourself and Fr Andrew. I only hope that you both understand that I am a young Orthodox Serb that is constantly choked by iggnorance amongst the powers that be and your involvement (ammendmants) were refreshing to read.

I and many other interested persons appreciate your consideration and ammendments to the page.

Thankyou for the fairness you have displayed.

YoungSerb,

== Byzantine chant question ==
Hi Pistevo, I came across your user page and saw that you can ead Byzantine notation. I am a 14 year old boy teaching myself how to read Byzantine music, but have a question I thought you could answer. I know that the oligon, petasthé, and kentémata are all ascending seconds, but this confuses me: how can there be three symbols for an ascending second? How are each used? Thank you, --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 15:55, June 24, 2009 (UTC)

Trisagion

2009-06-08T12:41:15Z

Iliada: Fixing errors

{{liturgy}}
{{cleanup}}

'''Trisagion''' (Greek τρισάγιον, thrice-holy), from ''tris-'' ("thrice") and ''agios'' ("holy").

==Translations of the Trisagion ==

'''English''': Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.

'''Arabic''': قدوس الله، قدوس القوي، قدوس الذي لا يموت ارحمنا (Quddouson Allââh, Quddouson ul-qawee, Quddouson ulladhee la yamout, Irhamna).

[[Church Slavonic]]: Svjatyj Bozhe, Svjatyj Krepkij, Svjatyj Bezsmertnyj, Pomiluj nas.

'''Finnish''': Pyhä Jumala, Pyhä Väkevä, Pyhä Kuolematon, armahda meitä.

'''French''': Saint Dieu, Saint Fort, Saint Immortel, aie pitié de nous.

'''Georgian''': წმიდაო ღმერთო, წმიდაო ძლიერო, წმიდაო უკვდავო, შეგვიწყალენ ჩვენ (Tsmidao Ghmerto, Tsmidao Dzliero, Tsmidao Ukvdavo, shegvitsqalen chven).

'''Greek''': Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς (Agios O Theos, Agios Eeskhiros, Agios Athanatos, eleison imas).

'''Japanese''': 聖なる神, 聖なる勇毅, 聖なる常生の者や、我等を憐れめよ。 (Seinaru Kami, Seinaru Yūki, Seinaru Jōseinomonoya, Warerao Awaremeyo).

'''Latin''': Sanctus Deus, Sanctus Fortis, Sanctus Immortalis, miserere nobis.

'''Latvian''': Svētais Dievs, Svētais Spēcīgais, Svētais Nemirstīgais, apžēlojies par mums.

'''Meadow mari'''<ref>One of nationalities in Russia</ref>: Святой Юмо, Святой Куатле, Святой Колыдымо, мемнам серлаге (Svyatoy Yumo, Svyatoy Kooatle, Svyatoy Kolydymo, memnam serlageh).

'''Romanian''': Sfinte Dumnezeule, Sfinte Tare, Sfinte Fără de moarte, Miluieşte-ne pe noi.

'''Spanish''': Two variants
: Santo Dios, Santo Fuerte, Santo Inmortal, ten piedad de nosotros.
: Santo Dios, Santo Poderoso, Santo Inmortal, ten piedad de nosotros.

'''Syriac / Aramaic''': ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܠܗܐ، ܩܕܝܫܐ ܚܝܠܬܢܐ، ܩܕܝܫܐ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ، ܐܬܪܚܡܥܠܝܢ (Qadishat Aloho, Qadishat Haylthono, Qadishat lo MoyouTHo, eTHraHam al'ain).

== Trisagion Prayer ==
The '''Trisagion Prayers''' are a set of ancient prayers that begin each service of the [[Daily Cycle]]. They are also commonly used to begin one's private prayers.

''+Glory to Thee, our God, Glory to Thee.''

''O Heavenly King, Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, the Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come, and abide in us, and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O Good One.''

''+Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.'' '''(3 times)'''

''+Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.''

''All-Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. Master, pardon our iniquities. Holy God, visit and heal our infirmities for Thy name's sake.''

''Lord, have mercy.'' '''(3 times)'''

''+Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.''

''Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.''

''For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the +Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.''

==Oriental Orthodox Version==
In the [[Oriental Orthodox]] Churches, the Trisagion is understood as addressing Christ, and is ameded to read: "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, who was cricifed for us, have mercy on us."

== External links ==
*[http://www.anastasis.org.uk/THE%20TRISAGION02.pdf A Note: The Translation of the Trisagion] (PDF)
*[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.iii.iv.iii.x.html Chapter X.—Concerning the Trisagium ('the Thrice Holy')] by St. [[John of Damascus]] in his ''Exposition of the Orthodox Faith'', trans. by Rev. S. D. F. Salmond

[[Category:Liturgics]]
[[Category:Hymnography]]

[[ro:Trisaghion]]

Trisagion

2009-06-08T12:40:28Z

Iliada: Fixing errors

{{liturgy}}
{{cleanup}}

'''Trisagion''' (Greek τρισάγιον, thrice-holy), from ''tris-'' ("thrice") and ''agios'' ("holy").
== English translations of the Trisagion ==

'''English''': Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.

'''Arabic''': قدوس الله، قدوس القوي، قدوس الذي لا يموت ارحمنا (Quddouson Allââh, Quddouson ul-qawee, Quddouson ulladhee la yamout, Irhamna).

[[Church Slavonic]]: Svjatyj Bozhe, Svjatyj Krepkij, Svjatyj Bezsmertnyj, Pomiluj nas.

'''Finnish''': Pyhä Jumala, Pyhä Väkevä, Pyhä Kuolematon, armahda meitä.

'''French''': Saint Dieu, Saint Fort, Saint Immortel, aie pitié de nous.

'''Georgian''': წმიდაო ღმერთო, წმიდაო ძლიერო, წმიდაო უკვდავო, შეგვიწყალენ ჩვენ (Tsmidao Ghmerto, Tsmidao Dzliero, Tsmidao Ukvdavo, shegvitsqalen chven).

'''Greek''': Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς (Agios O Theos, Agios Eeskhiros, Agios Athanatos, eleison imas).

'''Japanese''': 聖なる神, 聖なる勇毅, 聖なる常生の者や、我等を憐れめよ。 (Seinaru Kami, Seinaru Yūki, Seinaru Jōseinomonoya, Warerao Awaremeyo).

'''Latin''': Sanctus Deus, Sanctus Fortis, Sanctus Immortalis, miserere nobis.

'''Latvian''': Svētais Dievs, Svētais Spēcīgais, Svētais Nemirstīgais, apžēlojies par mums.

'''Meadow mari'''<ref>One of nationalities in Russia</ref>: Святой Юмо, Святой Куатле, Святой Колыдымо, мемнам серлаге (Svyatoy Yumo, Svyatoy Kooatle, Svyatoy Kolydymo, memnam serlageh).

'''Romanian''': Sfinte Dumnezeule, Sfinte Tare, Sfinte Fără de moarte, Miluieşte-ne pe noi.

'''Spanish''': Two variants
: Santo Dios, Santo Fuerte, Santo Inmortal, ten piedad de nosotros.
: Santo Dios, Santo Poderoso, Santo Inmortal, ten piedad de nosotros.

'''Syriac / Aramaic''': ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܠܗܐ، ܩܕܝܫܐ ܚܝܠܬܢܐ، ܩܕܝܫܐ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ، ܐܬܪܚܡܥܠܝܢ (Qadishat Aloho, Qadishat Haylthono, Qadishat lo MoyouTHo, eTHraHam al'ain).

== Trisagion Prayer ==
The '''Trisagion Prayers''' are a set of ancient prayers that begin each service of the [[Daily Cycle]]. They are also commonly used to begin one's private prayers.

''+Glory to Thee, our God, Glory to Thee.''

''O Heavenly King, Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, the Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come, and abide in us, and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O Good One.''

''+Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.'' '''(3 times)'''

''+Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.''

''All-Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. Master, pardon our iniquities. Holy God, visit and heal our infirmities for Thy name's sake.''

''Lord, have mercy.'' '''(3 times)'''

''+Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.''

''Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.''

''For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the +Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.''

==Oriental Orthodox Version==
In the [[Oriental Orthodox]] Churches, the Trisagion is understood as addressing Christ, and is ameded to read: "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, who was cricifed for us, have mercy on us."

== External links ==
*[http://www.anastasis.org.uk/THE%20TRISAGION02.pdf A Note: The Translation of the Trisagion] (PDF)
*[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.iii.iv.iii.x.html Chapter X.—Concerning the Trisagium ('the Thrice Holy')] by St. [[John of Damascus]] in his ''Exposition of the Orthodox Faith'', trans. by Rev. S. D. F. Salmond

[[Category:Liturgics]]
[[Category:Hymnography]]

[[ro:Trisaghion]]

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

2009-05-12T10:45:42Z

Iliada: Fixing error

In a monastery, a '''[[refectory|trapeza]]''' (or ''refectory''), is the dining hall where monks and pilgrims gather for food and conversation (although monks don't usually talk during meals). The OrthodoxWiki trapeza serves as the main discussion point for our website. Please feel free to join in—ask anything, suggest an idea, make a comment. We're glad to have you here. For other, more specifically designated discussion pages, check out the [[OrthodoxWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]].

'''If you have questions or comments about specific articles''', please direct them to the Talk pages of those articles so that they will be seen by editors working on them.

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]] [[bg:Project:Трапеза]] [[el:OrthodoxWiki:Τράπεζα]] [[fr:OrthodoxWiki:La Cafétéria]] [[mk:Православна-енциклопедија:Трпеза]] [[ro:OrthodoxWiki:Cafenea]]

* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 1|Archive 1]], Feb 2005 – Dec 2005 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Anything_Goes&oldid=22917 Anything Goes] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 2|Archive 2]], Feb 2005 – Aug 2006 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Questions&oldid=37973 Questions] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 3|Archive 3]], Oct 2005 – Aug 2006 (moved from [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=37962 Talk:Main Page])
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 4|Archive 4]], Aug 2006 – Dec 2006 (2006 Trapeza archive)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 5|Archive 5]], through November 2008

<center>
Please sign and date your comments by adding four tildes at the end: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>
{| style="border: solid 1px #aaaaaa"
|'''[http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza&action=edit&section=new Add new post]'''
|}
</center>

== Closing down OrthodoxSource and SR ==
Friends, I apologize for being absent for awhile. Please let me know if you have any outstanding wiki issues you need to resolve! 
As of today, I am shutting down OrthodoxSource. Apologies to IXThis888, who has put in a good deal of work. However, there was not enough of a community of contibutors and moderators there, and I think it would be better for us all at this point to keep the focus on this wiki. Also, I will likely be shutting down SR soon. There has been no activity there for a long time, and I'm afraid that the required documents (about copyrights and policies) were never translated. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 12:45, November 25, 2008 (UTC)

== questions ==
hi, i have photos of the raifa monastary i would like to upload as well as a convent neasr yoshkar ola russia which i do not beleive yet has an article how would i create a new article for this? {{unsigned|Kharaku}}
:Hello, on the left hand side of your screen ... scroll down until you see the words
"upload file" .. then follow the steps ...its not too hard and always someone will help you categorise your work ... Good luck! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:16, November 29, 2008 (UTC)

== Adding a Photo.... ==

I have been wanting to post my photo, but do not know HTML.
Could someone please give me a tip on how to do this?

Thanks! {{unsigned|Jacifus}}

: Give a thorough read to the materials linked in the welcome message on your talk page. There's plenty there that should help. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 23:56, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

==Seminarian input==
Over at Citizendium, there is a programme whereby faculty at various universities enjoin their students to post their work. I was wondering if it would make sense here to start publishing seminarians' papers. They come with faculty oversight and would be of sufficient quality to support reliability here. [[User:Thomas Simmons|Thomas Simmons]] 09:28, December 19, 2008 (PST)

:There is also a Wiki Site called "Patristic Wiki" that you should look at. Father John set it up recently (mid-November I think) and they are asking for people to contribute in regards to patristic related stuff .... 22:47, December 18, 2008 (UTC)

:: 1. This is not really a place for papers, but for encyclopedia articles. If seminarians wish to write Orthodox encyclopedia articles here, they are welcome to do so.

:: 2. PatristicsWiki is not connected with OrthodoxWiki and, as far as I know, not set up by (our) Fr. John. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 01:54, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:::Hi, I know that PatristicWiki is not linked with OrthodoxWiki but I mentioned it since I presume that everyone's core intention is to spread Orthodoxy in the way they know how ... who you are affiliated with wrt posting information publically is irrelevant as long as the end users are connected to God and the Truth. I had the impression (our) Father John was involved with it ... since, he monitors the emails for the Ancient Faith podcast that Dcn Matthew has been delivering - and he is from Monachos.net So doh! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:03, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

== ROK's Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights ==
I learnt recently the Russian Church adopted a [http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?mid=463 Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights]. Metropolitan Kyrill held a [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=65 speech] at a conference in Vienna in 2006 where he said this teaching is meaningful to all christans and at the UN Human Rights Council he [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=121 said] in 2008 adoption of human rights is unsuccessful because it fades out moral. I believe this is important. Would there be interest to have an article on this topic?{{unsigned|Haiduk}}

:Perhaps you should make it a "sub-topic" under the [[Church of Russia]] since it is specific to their jurisdiction? I will give it a shot first if you want and then you can come in and edit??? Remember to sign your posts with three tilde (~) signs. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:45, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:: I'm glad with just doing a revision. I agree adding it to [[Church of Russia]] would be adequate. It's up to you to follow Fr. Andrew advice or convince him, if that is possible [[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]]
::Honestly now, with no mucking around and with respect to Father Andrew its not MY job to convince and neither do I want to convince him since I trust what he is telling me :) However, if you wish to ..since it is your own idea ...go ahead. I merely was trying to be helpful but if its not appropriate for an article I can only just go with the guy who holds the petraxili .... :) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, my salvation is not dependent on having such an article at OrthodoxWiki. I just wanted to ensure information about this declaration finds it's way into this community. I guess (since it is not easy to write a reasonable article on this subject) it might be better to forward it to english language blogs or forums such as monachos.net. --[[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]] 16:34, December 20, 2008 (UTC)

: That's interesting, but it's really more fit for a newspaper than an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:27, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

==Orthodoxy in Italy==
I think it is completely inapropriate to use the title [[Orthodox Church in Italy]] for a non official orthodox church, that exists only 17 years, when in Italy orthodoxy has a history for many centuries. As far as I can see there is an article referred to [[Gennadios (Zervos) of Italy and Malta]] (the primate of the '''diocese of Italy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate'''), but there isn't an article for his archdiocese "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy". Also in the english and italian wikipedia the problem is the same. It seems as if the users who created the "Orthodox Church in Italy" articles were really quickly to catch the title! But it should remain like this? I think no. And it is, in my point of view completely unacceptable if that happens also in the "Orthodoxwiki".--[[User:Sp!ros|Sp!ros]] 21:27, December 29, 2008 (UTC)

: Generally, we use whatever titles such groups give themselves, noting within the article that they are not in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy, etc.

: In any event, I have removed the redirect and changed all the links to [[Chiesa Ortodossa in Italia]].

: You would be most welcome to provide the articles that you suggest are needed. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 20:58, December 31, 2008 (UTC)

== Archbishop Nikitas (Lulias) Cekal Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro ==

Pada Februari 2007 lalu, Metropolitan Orthodox Hongkong dan Asia Tenggara, '''His Eminence Nikitas Lulias''' mengeluarkan keputusan pencekalan (pembebas-tugas-an) terhadap '''Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro''', yang artinya Archimandrit Daniel Bambang tidak diperkenankan lagi (''suspended'') untuk berbicara, melakukan tugas penggembalaan jemaat atas nama gereja. Meskipun archimandrit Daniel mengklaim dirinya menjadi bagian dari satu gereja tertentu, tapi yang bersangkutan tidak lagi menerima putusan/ ketetapan (''Canonical Release'')dari Gereja sebagaimana disyaratkan. Hal ini atas sepengetahuan '''Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.''' {{unsigned|Maruli}}

: I'm honestly not sure what language this is, but unless you post here in English, you're not likely to get too many responses. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 18:46, January 4, 2009 (UTC)

::It's Indonesian. Here's an English rendering (thanks to the ever-improving Google Translate) -- "In February 2007, the Orthodox Metropolitan Hong Kong and Southeast Asia, His Eminence Nikitas Lulias-ban issue a decision (liberator-task-an) of Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro, which means Archimandrit Daniel Bambang not be more (suspended) to speak, doing penggembalaan of the church in the name of the church. Although Daniel archimandrit claimed himself to be part of a particular church, but they no longer receive the decision / provisions (Canonical Release) from the Church, as required. This top sepengetahuan Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople." — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 02:05, January 5, 2009 (UTC)

== Churches in Melbourne ==

I plan on uploading around one hundred photographs of churches in Melbourne to [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Orthodox_churches_in_Australia Wikimedia commons] over the next few days. You are free to reuse them; all my work is released into the public domain. Hope to have done all of the Orthodox churches within a few months. [[User:Ottre|Ottre]] 11:55, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

== log in ==

why does no one ever log on and really have discussion on other pages? {{unsigned|Rob}}

: I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. Could you explain a little more? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:14, March 9, 2009 (UTC)

== The Cemetery Chapel at Saint Anna's Skete? ==

I'm trying to remember the name of the cemetery chapel at Saint Anna's Skete on the Holy Mountain, the chapel where pilgrims generally worship on weekdays. Does anyone recall which saint the chapel venerates?

Father Andrew, is there a more likely page on this site where I might solicit a response?

Thanks,
Isaak

: Your best bet is at [[Talk:St. Anne's Skete (Athos)]]. It may simply be that no one who knows has yet noticed and commented. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 13:42, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

== John the Forerunner? ==
Hello, I have a question regarding the St. John the Forerunner page. It says something along the lines of, John the Baptist, also known as John the Forerunner... I was wondering if the two names should be switched, since John the Baptist is a more western term? --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:24, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

: Please direct questions about specific articles to the talk pages of those articles, e.g., [[Talk:John the Forerunner]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 13:42, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

==Uploading sound recordings==
I've tried uploading a sound recording (bell ringing) file to Orthodoxwiki Commons and have not been successful. I have tried as a Media file and a Image file, since some vocal music recording on Commons appear to be so uploaded. The recording is an mp3 file, through iTunes on a Mac. All attempts fail and bring up the warning banner of a corrupt, etc., file. I notice that there are no sound files in Commons other than those done originally by Father John last year. Has anyone tried uploading any sound files? Is there a special technique involved, what file ID is used:Media or Image, or other! Or is the upload capability not working for sound files?[[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 13:45, March 23, 2009 (UTC)

== Wiki logo ==

Where is the actual wiki logo? I can't find it because the one in the corner is a link to the main page. Thanks! [[User:Theodoros|Theodoros]] 03:20, March 29, 2009 (UTC)

:Theodoros, do you want it for a link button or something? — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 04:38, March 30, 2009 (UTC)

== choice of a religion ==

Majority of us follow the religion of our parents.We are either circumcised in infancy or recited verses of a particular book in our ears declaring it as our religion before we understand its implications. When we grow up in a particular culture and society we have friends and relative we go along with them to church/synegogue/mandar or masjid.How can we when we are grown up sacrifice all our friends/ relatives by opting for another religion.How can all those whom I loved and cared about can be wrong or I will take the risk of isolation.There is hardly a very little percentage that study different religions and adopt the one that is more convincing or appeals to thier logic.In a survey conducted by me it was revealed that 80% of them have not read the divine book of thier religion in a language that they understand. Their knowledge of their religion was based upon oral communication of a preist or thier parents. We since are infancy are brain washed that we are on the right path and rest every body is an infidel and deserves to be hated or may even be killed.When over 90% of human specie follow the religion by virtue of being born in a particular family and 80% do not read even the divine book of thier religion than what difference does it make that one follows any of the religions.Asif azam

'''Well, I believe it doesn't matter what religion people are. In the Bible, Jesus never says that ONLY Christians get to heaven. One gets to heaven by carrying out Jesus' word: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked... --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 10:45, May 12, 2009 (UTC)
'''

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

2009-05-12T10:44:45Z

Iliada: Fixing error

In a monastery, a '''[[refectory|trapeza]]''' (or ''refectory''), is the dining hall where monks and pilgrims gather for food and conversation (although monks don't usually talk during meals). The OrthodoxWiki trapeza serves as the main discussion point for our website. Please feel free to join in—ask anything, suggest an idea, make a comment. We're glad to have you here. For other, more specifically designated discussion pages, check out the [[OrthodoxWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]].

'''If you have questions or comments about specific articles''', please direct them to the Talk pages of those articles so that they will be seen by editors working on them.

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]] [[bg:Project:Трапеза]] [[el:OrthodoxWiki:Τράπεζα]] [[fr:OrthodoxWiki:La Cafétéria]] [[mk:Православна-енциклопедија:Трпеза]] [[ro:OrthodoxWiki:Cafenea]]

* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 1|Archive 1]], Feb 2005 – Dec 2005 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Anything_Goes&oldid=22917 Anything Goes] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 2|Archive 2]], Feb 2005 – Aug 2006 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Questions&oldid=37973 Questions] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 3|Archive 3]], Oct 2005 – Aug 2006 (moved from [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=37962 Talk:Main Page])
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 4|Archive 4]], Aug 2006 – Dec 2006 (2006 Trapeza archive)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 5|Archive 5]], through November 2008

<center>
Please sign and date your comments by adding four tildes at the end: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>
{| style="border: solid 1px #aaaaaa"
|'''[http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza&action=edit&section=new Add new post]'''
|}
</center>

== Closing down OrthodoxSource and SR ==
Friends, I apologize for being absent for awhile. Please let me know if you have any outstanding wiki issues you need to resolve! 
As of today, I am shutting down OrthodoxSource. Apologies to IXThis888, who has put in a good deal of work. However, there was not enough of a community of contibutors and moderators there, and I think it would be better for us all at this point to keep the focus on this wiki. Also, I will likely be shutting down SR soon. There has been no activity there for a long time, and I'm afraid that the required documents (about copyrights and policies) were never translated. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 12:45, November 25, 2008 (UTC)

== questions ==
hi, i have photos of the raifa monastary i would like to upload as well as a convent neasr yoshkar ola russia which i do not beleive yet has an article how would i create a new article for this? {{unsigned|Kharaku}}
:Hello, on the left hand side of your screen ... scroll down until you see the words
"upload file" .. then follow the steps ...its not too hard and always someone will help you categorise your work ... Good luck! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:16, November 29, 2008 (UTC)

== Adding a Photo.... ==

I have been wanting to post my photo, but do not know HTML.
Could someone please give me a tip on how to do this?

Thanks! {{unsigned|Jacifus}}

: Give a thorough read to the materials linked in the welcome message on your talk page. There's plenty there that should help. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 23:56, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

==Seminarian input==
Over at Citizendium, there is a programme whereby faculty at various universities enjoin their students to post their work. I was wondering if it would make sense here to start publishing seminarians' papers. They come with faculty oversight and would be of sufficient quality to support reliability here. [[User:Thomas Simmons|Thomas Simmons]] 09:28, December 19, 2008 (PST)

:There is also a Wiki Site called "Patristic Wiki" that you should look at. Father John set it up recently (mid-November I think) and they are asking for people to contribute in regards to patristic related stuff .... 22:47, December 18, 2008 (UTC)

:: 1. This is not really a place for papers, but for encyclopedia articles. If seminarians wish to write Orthodox encyclopedia articles here, they are welcome to do so.

:: 2. PatristicsWiki is not connected with OrthodoxWiki and, as far as I know, not set up by (our) Fr. John. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 01:54, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:::Hi, I know that PatristicWiki is not linked with OrthodoxWiki but I mentioned it since I presume that everyone's core intention is to spread Orthodoxy in the way they know how ... who you are affiliated with wrt posting information publically is irrelevant as long as the end users are connected to God and the Truth. I had the impression (our) Father John was involved with it ... since, he monitors the emails for the Ancient Faith podcast that Dcn Matthew has been delivering - and he is from Monachos.net So doh! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:03, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

== ROK's Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights ==
I learnt recently the Russian Church adopted a [http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?mid=463 Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights]. Metropolitan Kyrill held a [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=65 speech] at a conference in Vienna in 2006 where he said this teaching is meaningful to all christans and at the UN Human Rights Council he [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=121 said] in 2008 adoption of human rights is unsuccessful because it fades out moral. I believe this is important. Would there be interest to have an article on this topic?{{unsigned|Haiduk}}

:Perhaps you should make it a "sub-topic" under the [[Church of Russia]] since it is specific to their jurisdiction? I will give it a shot first if you want and then you can come in and edit??? Remember to sign your posts with three tilde (~) signs. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:45, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:: I'm glad with just doing a revision. I agree adding it to [[Church of Russia]] would be adequate. It's up to you to follow Fr. Andrew advice or convince him, if that is possible [[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]]
::Honestly now, with no mucking around and with respect to Father Andrew its not MY job to convince and neither do I want to convince him since I trust what he is telling me :) However, if you wish to ..since it is your own idea ...go ahead. I merely was trying to be helpful but if its not appropriate for an article I can only just go with the guy who holds the petraxili .... :) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, my salvation is not dependent on having such an article at OrthodoxWiki. I just wanted to ensure information about this declaration finds it's way into this community. I guess (since it is not easy to write a reasonable article on this subject) it might be better to forward it to english language blogs or forums such as monachos.net. --[[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]] 16:34, December 20, 2008 (UTC)

: That's interesting, but it's really more fit for a newspaper than an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:27, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

==Orthodoxy in Italy==
I think it is completely inapropriate to use the title [[Orthodox Church in Italy]] for a non official orthodox church, that exists only 17 years, when in Italy orthodoxy has a history for many centuries. As far as I can see there is an article referred to [[Gennadios (Zervos) of Italy and Malta]] (the primate of the '''diocese of Italy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate'''), but there isn't an article for his archdiocese "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy". Also in the english and italian wikipedia the problem is the same. It seems as if the users who created the "Orthodox Church in Italy" articles were really quickly to catch the title! But it should remain like this? I think no. And it is, in my point of view completely unacceptable if that happens also in the "Orthodoxwiki".--[[User:Sp!ros|Sp!ros]] 21:27, December 29, 2008 (UTC)

: Generally, we use whatever titles such groups give themselves, noting within the article that they are not in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy, etc.

: In any event, I have removed the redirect and changed all the links to [[Chiesa Ortodossa in Italia]].

: You would be most welcome to provide the articles that you suggest are needed. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 20:58, December 31, 2008 (UTC)

== Archbishop Nikitas (Lulias) Cekal Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro ==

Pada Februari 2007 lalu, Metropolitan Orthodox Hongkong dan Asia Tenggara, '''His Eminence Nikitas Lulias''' mengeluarkan keputusan pencekalan (pembebas-tugas-an) terhadap '''Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro''', yang artinya Archimandrit Daniel Bambang tidak diperkenankan lagi (''suspended'') untuk berbicara, melakukan tugas penggembalaan jemaat atas nama gereja. Meskipun archimandrit Daniel mengklaim dirinya menjadi bagian dari satu gereja tertentu, tapi yang bersangkutan tidak lagi menerima putusan/ ketetapan (''Canonical Release'')dari Gereja sebagaimana disyaratkan. Hal ini atas sepengetahuan '''Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.''' {{unsigned|Maruli}}

: I'm honestly not sure what language this is, but unless you post here in English, you're not likely to get too many responses. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 18:46, January 4, 2009 (UTC)

::It's Indonesian. Here's an English rendering (thanks to the ever-improving Google Translate) -- "In February 2007, the Orthodox Metropolitan Hong Kong and Southeast Asia, His Eminence Nikitas Lulias-ban issue a decision (liberator-task-an) of Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro, which means Archimandrit Daniel Bambang not be more (suspended) to speak, doing penggembalaan of the church in the name of the church. Although Daniel archimandrit claimed himself to be part of a particular church, but they no longer receive the decision / provisions (Canonical Release) from the Church, as required. This top sepengetahuan Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople." — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 02:05, January 5, 2009 (UTC)

== Churches in Melbourne ==

I plan on uploading around one hundred photographs of churches in Melbourne to [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Orthodox_churches_in_Australia Wikimedia commons] over the next few days. You are free to reuse them; all my work is released into the public domain. Hope to have done all of the Orthodox churches within a few months. [[User:Ottre|Ottre]] 11:55, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

== log in ==

why does no one ever log on and really have discussion on other pages? {{unsigned|Rob}}

: I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. Could you explain a little more? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:14, March 9, 2009 (UTC)

== The Cemetery Chapel at Saint Anna's Skete? ==

I'm trying to remember the name of the cemetery chapel at Saint Anna's Skete on the Holy Mountain, the chapel where pilgrims generally worship on weekdays. Does anyone recall which saint the chapel venerates?

Father Andrew, is there a more likely page on this site where I might solicit a response?

Thanks,
Isaak

: Your best bet is at [[Talk:St. Anne's Skete (Athos)]]. It may simply be that no one who knows has yet noticed and commented. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 13:42, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

== John the Forerunner? ==
Hello, I have a question regarding the St. John the Forerunner page. It says something along the lines of, John the Baptist, also known as John the Forerunner... I was wondering if the two names should be switched, since John the Baptist is a more western term? --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:24, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

: Please direct questions about specific articles to the talk pages of those articles, e.g., [[Talk:John the Forerunner]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 13:42, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

==Uploading sound recordings==
I've tried uploading a sound recording (bell ringing) file to Orthodoxwiki Commons and have not been successful. I have tried as a Media file and a Image file, since some vocal music recording on Commons appear to be so uploaded. The recording is an mp3 file, through iTunes on a Mac. All attempts fail and bring up the warning banner of a corrupt, etc., file. I notice that there are no sound files in Commons other than those done originally by Father John last year. Has anyone tried uploading any sound files? Is there a special technique involved, what file ID is used:Media or Image, or other! Or is the upload capability not working for sound files?[[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 13:45, March 23, 2009 (UTC)

== Wiki logo ==

Where is the actual wiki logo? I can't find it because the one in the corner is a link to the main page. Thanks! [[User:Theodoros|Theodoros]] 03:20, March 29, 2009 (UTC)

:Theodoros, do you want it for a link button or something? — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 04:38, March 30, 2009 (UTC)

== choice of a religion ==

Majority of us follow the religion of our parents.We are either circumcised in infancy or recited verses of a particular book in our ears declaring it as our religion before we understand its implications. When we grow up in a particular culture and society we have friends and relative we go along with them to church/synegogue/mandar or masjid.How can we when we are grown up sacrifice all our friends/ relatives by opting for another religion.How can all those whom I loved and cared about can be wrong or I will take the risk of isolation.There is hardly a very little percentage that study different religions and adopt the one that is more convincing or appeals to thier logic.In a survey conducted by me it was revealed that 80% of them have not read the divine book of thier religion in a language that they understand. Their knowledge of their religion was based upon oral communication of a preist or thier parents. We since are infancy are brain washed that we are on the right path and rest every body is an infidel and deserves to be hated or may even be killed.When over 90% of human specie follow the religion by virtue of being born in a particular family and 80% do not read even the divine book of thier religion than what difference does it make that one follows any of the religions.Asif azam

Well, I believe it doesn't matter what religion people are. In the Bible, Jesus never says that ONLY Christians get to heaven. One gets to heaven by carrying out Jesus' word: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked... --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 10:44, May 12, 2009 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

2009-05-12T10:44:14Z

Iliada: Talk addition

In a monastery, a '''[[refectory|trapeza]]''' (or ''refectory''), is the dining hall where monks and pilgrims gather for food and conversation (although monks don't usually talk during meals). The OrthodoxWiki trapeza serves as the main discussion point for our website. Please feel free to join in—ask anything, suggest an idea, make a comment. We're glad to have you here. For other, more specifically designated discussion pages, check out the [[OrthodoxWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]].

'''If you have questions or comments about specific articles''', please direct them to the Talk pages of those articles so that they will be seen by editors working on them.

[[Category:OrthodoxWiki]] [[bg:Project:Трапеза]] [[el:OrthodoxWiki:Τράπεζα]] [[fr:OrthodoxWiki:La Cafétéria]] [[mk:Православна-енциклопедија:Трпеза]] [[ro:OrthodoxWiki:Cafenea]]

* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 1|Archive 1]], Feb 2005 – Dec 2005 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Anything_Goes&oldid=22917 Anything Goes] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 2|Archive 2]], Feb 2005 – Aug 2006 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Questions&oldid=37973 Questions] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 3|Archive 3]], Oct 2005 – Aug 2006 (moved from [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=37962 Talk:Main Page])
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 4|Archive 4]], Aug 2006 – Dec 2006 (2006 Trapeza archive)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 5|Archive 5]], through November 2008

<center>
Please sign and date your comments by adding four tildes at the end: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>
{| style="border: solid 1px #aaaaaa"
|'''[http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza&action=edit&section=new Add new post]'''
|}
</center>

== Closing down OrthodoxSource and SR ==
Friends, I apologize for being absent for awhile. Please let me know if you have any outstanding wiki issues you need to resolve! 
As of today, I am shutting down OrthodoxSource. Apologies to IXThis888, who has put in a good deal of work. However, there was not enough of a community of contibutors and moderators there, and I think it would be better for us all at this point to keep the focus on this wiki. Also, I will likely be shutting down SR soon. There has been no activity there for a long time, and I'm afraid that the required documents (about copyrights and policies) were never translated. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 12:45, November 25, 2008 (UTC)

== questions ==
hi, i have photos of the raifa monastary i would like to upload as well as a convent neasr yoshkar ola russia which i do not beleive yet has an article how would i create a new article for this? {{unsigned|Kharaku}}
:Hello, on the left hand side of your screen ... scroll down until you see the words
"upload file" .. then follow the steps ...its not too hard and always someone will help you categorise your work ... Good luck! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:16, November 29, 2008 (UTC)

== Adding a Photo.... ==

I have been wanting to post my photo, but do not know HTML.
Could someone please give me a tip on how to do this?

Thanks! {{unsigned|Jacifus}}

: Give a thorough read to the materials linked in the welcome message on your talk page. There's plenty there that should help. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 23:56, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

==Seminarian input==
Over at Citizendium, there is a programme whereby faculty at various universities enjoin their students to post their work. I was wondering if it would make sense here to start publishing seminarians' papers. They come with faculty oversight and would be of sufficient quality to support reliability here. [[User:Thomas Simmons|Thomas Simmons]] 09:28, December 19, 2008 (PST)

:There is also a Wiki Site called "Patristic Wiki" that you should look at. Father John set it up recently (mid-November I think) and they are asking for people to contribute in regards to patristic related stuff .... 22:47, December 18, 2008 (UTC)

:: 1. This is not really a place for papers, but for encyclopedia articles. If seminarians wish to write Orthodox encyclopedia articles here, they are welcome to do so.

:: 2. PatristicsWiki is not connected with OrthodoxWiki and, as far as I know, not set up by (our) Fr. John. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 01:54, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:::Hi, I know that PatristicWiki is not linked with OrthodoxWiki but I mentioned it since I presume that everyone's core intention is to spread Orthodoxy in the way they know how ... who you are affiliated with wrt posting information publically is irrelevant as long as the end users are connected to God and the Truth. I had the impression (our) Father John was involved with it ... since, he monitors the emails for the Ancient Faith podcast that Dcn Matthew has been delivering - and he is from Monachos.net So doh! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:03, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

== ROK's Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights ==
I learnt recently the Russian Church adopted a [http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?mid=463 Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights]. Metropolitan Kyrill held a [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=65 speech] at a conference in Vienna in 2006 where he said this teaching is meaningful to all christans and at the UN Human Rights Council he [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=121 said] in 2008 adoption of human rights is unsuccessful because it fades out moral. I believe this is important. Would there be interest to have an article on this topic?{{unsigned|Haiduk}}

:Perhaps you should make it a "sub-topic" under the [[Church of Russia]] since it is specific to their jurisdiction? I will give it a shot first if you want and then you can come in and edit??? Remember to sign your posts with three tilde (~) signs. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:45, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:: I'm glad with just doing a revision. I agree adding it to [[Church of Russia]] would be adequate. It's up to you to follow Fr. Andrew advice or convince him, if that is possible [[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]]
::Honestly now, with no mucking around and with respect to Father Andrew its not MY job to convince and neither do I want to convince him since I trust what he is telling me :) However, if you wish to ..since it is your own idea ...go ahead. I merely was trying to be helpful but if its not appropriate for an article I can only just go with the guy who holds the petraxili .... :) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, my salvation is not dependent on having such an article at OrthodoxWiki. I just wanted to ensure information about this declaration finds it's way into this community. I guess (since it is not easy to write a reasonable article on this subject) it might be better to forward it to english language blogs or forums such as monachos.net. --[[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]] 16:34, December 20, 2008 (UTC)

: That's interesting, but it's really more fit for a newspaper than an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:27, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

==Orthodoxy in Italy==
I think it is completely inapropriate to use the title [[Orthodox Church in Italy]] for a non official orthodox church, that exists only 17 years, when in Italy orthodoxy has a history for many centuries. As far as I can see there is an article referred to [[Gennadios (Zervos) of Italy and Malta]] (the primate of the '''diocese of Italy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate'''), but there isn't an article for his archdiocese "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy". Also in the english and italian wikipedia the problem is the same. It seems as if the users who created the "Orthodox Church in Italy" articles were really quickly to catch the title! But it should remain like this? I think no. And it is, in my point of view completely unacceptable if that happens also in the "Orthodoxwiki".--[[User:Sp!ros|Sp!ros]] 21:27, December 29, 2008 (UTC)

: Generally, we use whatever titles such groups give themselves, noting within the article that they are not in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy, etc.

: In any event, I have removed the redirect and changed all the links to [[Chiesa Ortodossa in Italia]].

: You would be most welcome to provide the articles that you suggest are needed. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 20:58, December 31, 2008 (UTC)

== Archbishop Nikitas (Lulias) Cekal Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro ==

Pada Februari 2007 lalu, Metropolitan Orthodox Hongkong dan Asia Tenggara, '''His Eminence Nikitas Lulias''' mengeluarkan keputusan pencekalan (pembebas-tugas-an) terhadap '''Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro''', yang artinya Archimandrit Daniel Bambang tidak diperkenankan lagi (''suspended'') untuk berbicara, melakukan tugas penggembalaan jemaat atas nama gereja. Meskipun archimandrit Daniel mengklaim dirinya menjadi bagian dari satu gereja tertentu, tapi yang bersangkutan tidak lagi menerima putusan/ ketetapan (''Canonical Release'')dari Gereja sebagaimana disyaratkan. Hal ini atas sepengetahuan '''Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.''' {{unsigned|Maruli}}

: I'm honestly not sure what language this is, but unless you post here in English, you're not likely to get too many responses. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 18:46, January 4, 2009 (UTC)

::It's Indonesian. Here's an English rendering (thanks to the ever-improving Google Translate) -- "In February 2007, the Orthodox Metropolitan Hong Kong and Southeast Asia, His Eminence Nikitas Lulias-ban issue a decision (liberator-task-an) of Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro, which means Archimandrit Daniel Bambang not be more (suspended) to speak, doing penggembalaan of the church in the name of the church. Although Daniel archimandrit claimed himself to be part of a particular church, but they no longer receive the decision / provisions (Canonical Release) from the Church, as required. This top sepengetahuan Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople." — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 02:05, January 5, 2009 (UTC)

== Churches in Melbourne ==

I plan on uploading around one hundred photographs of churches in Melbourne to [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Orthodox_churches_in_Australia Wikimedia commons] over the next few days. You are free to reuse them; all my work is released into the public domain. Hope to have done all of the Orthodox churches within a few months. [[User:Ottre|Ottre]] 11:55, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

== log in ==

why does no one ever log on and really have discussion on other pages? {{unsigned|Rob}}

: I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. Could you explain a little more? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:14, March 9, 2009 (UTC)

== The Cemetery Chapel at Saint Anna's Skete? ==

I'm trying to remember the name of the cemetery chapel at Saint Anna's Skete on the Holy Mountain, the chapel where pilgrims generally worship on weekdays. Does anyone recall which saint the chapel venerates?

Father Andrew, is there a more likely page on this site where I might solicit a response?

Thanks,
Isaak

: Your best bet is at [[Talk:St. Anne's Skete (Athos)]]. It may simply be that no one who knows has yet noticed and commented. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 13:42, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

== John the Forerunner? ==
Hello, I have a question regarding the St. John the Forerunner page. It says something along the lines of, John the Baptist, also known as John the Forerunner... I was wondering if the two names should be switched, since John the Baptist is a more western term? --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:24, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

: Please direct questions about specific articles to the talk pages of those articles, e.g., [[Talk:John the Forerunner]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 13:42, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

==Uploading sound recordings==
I've tried uploading a sound recording (bell ringing) file to Orthodoxwiki Commons and have not been successful. I have tried as a Media file and a Image file, since some vocal music recording on Commons appear to be so uploaded. The recording is an mp3 file, through iTunes on a Mac. All attempts fail and bring up the warning banner of a corrupt, etc., file. I notice that there are no sound files in Commons other than those done originally by Father John last year. Has anyone tried uploading any sound files? Is there a special technique involved, what file ID is used:Media or Image, or other! Or is the upload capability not working for sound files?[[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 13:45, March 23, 2009 (UTC)

== Wiki logo ==

Where is the actual wiki logo? I can't find it because the one in the corner is a link to the main page. Thanks! [[User:Theodoros|Theodoros]] 03:20, March 29, 2009 (UTC)

:Theodoros, do you want it for a link button or something? — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 04:38, March 30, 2009 (UTC)

== choice of a religion ==

Majority of us follow the religion of our parents.We are either circumcised in infancy or recited verses of a particular book in our ears declaring it as our religion before we understand its implications. When we grow up in a particular culture and society we have friends and relative we go along with them to church/synegogue/mandar or masjid.How can we when we are grown up sacrifice all our friends/ relatives by opting for another religion.How can all those whom I loved and cared about can be wrong or I will take the risk of isolation.There is hardly a very little percentage that study different religions and adopt the one that is more convincing or appeals to thier logic.In a survey conducted by me it was revealed that 80% of them have not read the divine book of thier religion in a language that they understand. Their knowledge of their religion was based upon oral communication of a preist or thier parents. We since are infancy are brain washed that we are on the right path and rest every body is an infidel and deserves to be hated or may even be killed.When over 90% of human specie follow the religion by virtue of being born in a particular family and 80% do not read even the divine book of thier religion than what difference does it make that one follows any of the religions.Asif azam

Well, I believe it doesn't matter what religion people are. In the Bible, Jesus never says that ONLY Christians get to heaven. One gets to heaven by carrying out Jesus' word: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked... --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 10:44, May 12, 2009 (UTC)

User talk:ASDamick

2009-04-24T17:29:47Z

Iliada: Question

<div class="boilerplate" id="stub" style="margin: 0 auto; text-align: center; background: #EEEEEE; padding: 0 10px; border: 1px solid #CCC; width: 60%; align: center">'''Fr. Andrew''' is currently reserving the right to make his wiki-contributions extremely sporadic.</div>

* [[/Archive 1|Archive 1]] (Dec. 18, 2004 - June 17, 2005)
* [[/Archive 2|Archive 2]] (July 5, 2005 - Dec. 15, 2005)
* [[/Archive 3|Archive 3]] (Dec. 23, 2005 - Aug. 2, 2006)
* [[/Archive 4|Archive 4]] (Aug. 10, 2006 - May 29, 2008)

----

== "Church" v. "church" ==

I understand "the Church" v. "a church" when it comes to a parish. However, I thought that one could also have "a Church" meaning an entity such as the [[Church of Russia]]. Currently, that article (Jursidiction section) mentions: "This includes these self-governing Churches:" Is this wrong? (I would appreciate it if you would add some clarification to the [[OrthodoxWiki:Style_Manual#Capitalization|Style Manual]] on this so I can refer back to it.) Thank you. —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 15:05, June 2, 2008 (UTC)

==Vandalism 10June08==
Figured just after I did it... :/ ...Wonder if there's a way to have a setting where all of an editors edits can just be mass-reverted? — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 11:56, June 10, 2008 (UTC)

* Thank you very much, Fr. Andrew. It's just my duty.--''[[User:Θεοδωρος|Θεόδωρος]]'' 12:02, June 10, 2008 (UTC)

I've noticed you are able to delete particular edits from the revision history. I think [[Pope Saint Dioscorus I of Alexandria (Coptic POV)]] still needs help (or just to be transferred to OrthodoxSource and deleted here), but I'd like to know how to delete selected edits, and what the "undo" button does ... without harming an actual article. —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 19:47, June 11, 2008 (UTC)

:Thank you. I hadn't even noticed the (show/hide) link until you pointed it out. —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 22:15, June 11, 2008 (UTC)

::Hmm. Poking it doesn't seem to work in this case. I can rollback to the previous edit, or I can undo, but each option seems to deal with single edits, when I want to go back several edits. I have tried several times to copy and paste from an [http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Pope_Saint_Dioscorus_I_of_Alexandria_(Coptic_POV)&oldid=60734 older edit], but I think that there may be too much data. I feel uncomfortable transferring this article to OrthodoxSource, because I don't know whether we have the right to use most of the material from this article (most of it seems to be from [http://www.coptichymns.net/module-library-viewpub-tid-1-pid-384.html this article]). In any case, if you can get the article restored (I give up), I think it needs a significant amount of cleanup. —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 22:52, June 11, 2008 (UTC)

== Help on Code ==

Hi, I have looked through the various Help Files but there doesnt seem to be one that teaches you (or define) how to use the parameters (and what these are) for code. I have been working on putting a {{ }} together but I want to collapse my table. Do you know of a reference I cna read to educate myself on this code? and what will work on OrthodoxWiki? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 02:58, June 12, 2008 (UTC)

:Do you know if the {{#if:}} are supposed to work on OrthodoxWiki? They work on Wikipedia -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]]

== Recruitment of "expert" ==

Hi, I wanted to ask you to help me ... I am hoping that at this point in time, the number of people who go to OrthodoxSource is limited to ...two, three at the max ...because it will get crazy before a nice sensible 'framework' is put in place ... anyway, can you pop over to Orthodox Source for a moment ... and take a look at what I have started to do and please dont freak out ... I am pretty computer savvy .. the only problem is I am having difficulty with the #if code ... which is messing up the format for this template [http://www.orthodoxsource.org/Template:Author ''Development of Template for "Author" definitions"''] which is a key template to get this site up and running. Keep it quiet that I am working on that site because otherwise too many people will start sticky beaking into it and modifying things without the framework finishing ... -- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]]

So, who should I recruit??? See, my development so far ... I want someone to work with! Any ideas? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]]

== take a look .... ==

http://orthodoxsource.org/Author:Raphael_Hawaweeny

==Existing structure==
Thanks on the revert on my addition to the "graduates". I like to follow the existing structure a best I can. A few times I've noted what appears to be more than one path, usually over using similar titles for articles and categories that I think adds confusion in navigating. At this time I can't remember my "examples!" Multiple paths may be necessary sometime, but my intent is to work within the present structure and keep the structure simple to follow. [[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 14:09, June 18, 2008 (UTC)

==PSCA==
PSCA = "Provisional Supreme Church Authority [of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad]", aka the "Agathangelites" -- the latest schismatic jurisdiction to emerge in Ukraine. I'll get a brief article about them up. {{unsigned|Aleks}}

==Stuff==
1. I am not trying to live in '''"bubble" world''' where only I can edit and only I can do as I please ... so, please dont go inferring that I should "bugger off" and start my own wiki if that is what I want ...

2. I am not upset because you deleted the DVD articles, or Category links (because I make OW mistakes) I never said that so please dont infer that. I am/was upset with the overall revert you made to the OrthodoxSource Main Page. That was a significant (rv) and I just would have liked the opportunity to have been treated like an equal in that case - drop me a conversational note giving me a warning that you intend to do it. That was what upset me, ''''the fact you didnt think I was worth discussing it in the first place'''

3. I tend to get defensive with you because from Day One you have been pretty abrupt with me on just about every occassion ... so that pattern has made me feel like '''you dont think I am worth discussing with in the first place''' - even if you do talk to me ... it has been talking "down" on occassions, little comments in the past "highlighting" my weaknesses have made me feel inferior ... and have made me feel that everyone has a superior grasp of "English", I dont ... so ... I do note, that you are so willing to be "patient" with me; Wow, how awesome that you can exhibit ''patience'' with me? how good does that make me feel?

It doesnt matter. The point is, I dont seem to do it right in here. So, goodbye from today. I wont contribute to OW anymore if you all think that my contributions lack 'quality", what is the point of wasting my time and yours? - [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:52, June 19, 2008 (UTC)

: See my response on your [[User talk:Ixthis888|talk page]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 05:00, June 19, 2008 (UTC)

== My Apology and request for Help ==

I want to apologise for coming across (in written text) as such a cry baby ... I guarantee you I get frustrated that I can not explain myself simply and quickly and appropriately and I know you are a cool priest but I do get upset on big ticket items because all i want is the opportunity to discuss ... In any case, accept my apologies for going all huffy yesterday. I still stand by the fact I will not contribute to OW any longer since I feel that I am a nuisance rather than a help. However, in OS I really do want to contribute to developing the framework/skeleton (ie. Set up all the codes and the worksheets) that can then be "filled" with the revelant Bibliographical lists by others (or even me). To do that, I really need someone to talk with over in the OS wiki. At the moment, I want to discuss a framework for Liturgical Texts (BEFORE) I go ahead and set up the entire code/framework .... Can you help me? [http://www.orthodoxsource.org/OrthodoxSource:Discussion DESIGN of Liturgical Text Portal] - [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:35, June 20, 2008 (UTC)

== Estonian "Issue" ==

Father:

Evlogeite!

Regarding your comments about the Estonian Church. You write:
"The reason for the difference in naming is that the EP's Estonian church is not regarded by the EP as a constituent part—rather, the EP regards the Estonian church as autonomous, having the same status as Finland, Sinai, etc. The MP, however, regards its Estonian church as being essentially an integral part of the MP, in contrast with the Church of Ukraine, which it regards as autonomous. Thus, the distinction."

Please explain to me, what the difference in status is between the Ukrainian and Estonian Churches (MP). It seems to me that both have the same status within the MP. The Primate of the Ukrainian Church is confirmed by the Moscow Patriarch; so is the Primate of the Estonian Church (MP). Hierarchs of the Ukrainian Church serve in the Council and Synod of the Russian Church; so do hierarchs of the Estonian Church (MP). In fact, the Metropolitan of Kiev is an ex officio permanent member of the Holy Synod in Moscow. The Ukrainian Church receives its chrism from the Moscow Patriarch; so does the Estonian Church (MP). The name of the Patriarch of Moscow is elevated at services in the Ukrainian Church and in the Estonian Church before the names of the Metropolitans of Kiev and Tallinn, respectively.

Thus, I see no difference between their status as "integral parts of the MP" or not. I do not know what the status of the Estonian Church (EP) is within the EP. However, it seems to me that, for matters of OrthodoxWiki:

1. If the Ukrainian Church is listed as an autonomous church with unrecognized autonomy in the box of autonomous / autocephalous churches, so too should be the Estonian Church (MP), alongside the Estonian Church (EP). This is already happening on the French version of the project.

2. There should be two articles. One called "Church of Estonia (EP)" and one called "Church of Estonia (MP)". The article "Church of Estonia" ought to be a disambiguation page. Doing otherwise may be construed as taking sides in a canonical debate.

Yours in Christ, --[[User:Aleks|Aleks]] 15:56, June 23, 2008 (UTC)

== New Article - '''[[Georgii Shavelsky]]''' ==

'''Hi, when you have the time, could you please create his Biography - [[Georgii Shavelsky]] - to compliment the osource Memoir you create? I have cut and paste a really bad "Google" translation of a biography I found from the 'source', see below. ... I do not read or understand Russian so there is no way I can edit the google translation for accuracy of information bc I can not cross check it with the authentic material in the Russian language. I created a OrthodoxSource article to link the Memoir you created, please visit [[osource:Author:Georgii Shavelsky]] to link the OW article and also modify the osource article.''' - [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:22, June 26, 2008 (UTC)

* Source: [http://209.85.171.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/shavelsky_gi/pre.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DShavelsky%26hl%3Den]
----
Life, identity and fate of his father George Shavelski represents an unusually coherent whole. Since their memories of. George starts only in 1911, when he received the appointment as military and maritime Protopresvitera clergy, Publisher them. Chekhov is experiencing living need to give readers a better understanding of the life of this exceptional man and a prominent cleric.

George O. Shavelsky was born on January 6, 1871 in the village Dubokray Vitebsk province, in the family dyachka that heavy peasant labour extractive piece of bread for his large family. Primary education has received in the future Protopresbyter Duhovnom College and then graduated from the first course Theological Seminary. Ahead holds the promise of higher education in the Theological Academy. But on. George has chosen to dedicate themselves to serving ordinary people, and in 1891 was appointed psalomshchika very poor parish of Vitebsk province. Here at the same time, and he became a teacher in rural schools. Four years later, he took the San priesthood and was appointed rector in his native village of another province. Two years later, his wife died, leaving him two-year-old girl. However, Father Georgy not fallen spirit, wholeheartedly commend pastoral work. Soon, on the recommendation of the bishop of Vitebsk, about. George was sent to St. Petersburg for the admission of Spiritual Academy. He brilliantly stood the entrance examination and immediately allocate as the best student of the Academy. [6]

As far back as when his student, about. George was appointed preacher at the Alexandrovsky Engineering Plant and decent in the name of Grand Duke Dmitry Konstantinovich in Strelna. As a student 3 - course, he became rector Suvorovskoy church.

When broke out Russian-Japanese war, about. George volunteered to go to the front and received the appointment in the army regimental first priest, then divisional decent, mostly at the end of the priest Manchu armies. For his outstanding leadership and exceptional prowess (the risk to the life he visited the front line, where once suffered severe concussion), about. George was elevated to the rank of archpriest of St. and awarded honors. And St. George. Vladimir with swords.

In March 1906 on. George returned to his pastoral ministry in Suvorovskoy Church in St. Petersburg. In addition to pastoral service, Fr. Georgy very early borrowed teaching activity. Since 1906 - till 1910 - the year he was zakonouchitelem in Smolny Institute, a professor of theology in 1910 Historical Studies Institute. In the same in 1910 about. George became a member of the military spiritual Protopresbyter. The next in 1911, about. George was appointed Protopresbyter military and maritime clergy Russian Empire.

Events shook Russia's first revolution of 1904-5. heightened public interest Church circles to religious education officers and soldiers. O. George was the initiator of special institutions for officers theological readings. His lectures always been a huge success. At the initiative on. George, such readings have been organized in Moscow, Kiev, Kharkov and Kazan garrisons.

Even before the start 1 - World War II, in the first period [7] his protopresviterstva (1911-1914's.) About. George has totally restructured and greatly raise the military and especially maritime clergy, it attracted a number of prominent clerics. It should be noted, and emphasize his ability and the ability to select a talented assistants and keep firmly in their hands, those, different abilities were not always at a height in nature. From the clergy subordinate to him, he demanded that everyone worked fully its forces and capabilities, but will certainly worked; negligent and stroptivyh he pursued and expelled. His kipuchey energy and skill to come to any good and useful case and bring it to the end, as well as their availability, responsiveness and willingness to come to the aid of everyone in need, he earned the love, respect and trust him in a subordinate of about 5,000 people (during the war) clergy, which in 1917 at its All-Russian congress elected him his life Protopresbyter.

By the end of July 1914. George has prepared a draft name to the highest total reorganization of management and maritime military clergy. To carry out his he was not given. Gryanula war. George O. received the appointment in Stavku High-Chief.
Further story of his life and work on. George tells himself to the attention of readers memoir. After the end of civil war. George moved to Bulgaria. Here he first became an ordinary priest. Outstanding ability and talent on the bright predicant. George was soon rated as the Bulgarian church authorities and local universities. George O. was brought to the pedagogical work first as a teacher Sophia University, then as a professor of Theological [8], Faculty of Sofia University, while he was zakonouchitelem and director of Russian grammar school.

George O. and was destined to survive the Second World War. He died rather quietly ugas 2 - October 1951. Despite the fact that the death of Fr. George could not inform all his friends, relatives and acquaintances, the news of the death of Fr. George razneslas with lightning speed, not only for Sofia, but also for the province. The funeral on. George attracted a huge number of people simply wanted to ashes beloved pastor and mentor.

Outstanding organizational skills, teaching skills, independence of judgement, faithful to their convictions, combined in on. Georgia with remarkable humility in his personal life and habits. This modesty especially stay invisible when compared with the breadth of its aid near and far. These qualities about. George Shavelskogo served as a source of legends, which is still in his lifetime became folded around his behalf.
----

== The Reason You Make the Big Bucks ==

Fr. Andrew, as I noted on the main moderator page, the Liturgy of St. Tikhon article needs moderation -- more than you provided. I'm offended at being equated with my attacker, and had you bothered to read the bulk of the post, you'd note I more than presented a thorough case for why my edits improved the article. IMO, the word "almost" should be struck from the record, but the last time this same poster started three simultaneous edit-wars with me (Feb. 12-14), you threatened to ban us both if we ever did it again. (There I am getting blamed for ''responding'' again.) So, to avoid being banned by you, I'm asking you to do the moderator's job, read the background material about how the AWRV has implemented all these in actual fact (which you probably know already), and (if you're convinced) strike the word "almost" from the article (or if not, let us know why not). You're a moderator, and I'm tired of being blamed for responding -- so have at it. :) --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 03:32, June 28, 2008 (UTC)
:Thanks. I know how busy you must be with PLC coming up, but I appreciate your looking things over.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 22:56, June 28, 2008 (UTC)

Deacon Ben got in trouble for "responding"? He deleted an entire article of mine. (I put it back :) ) BTW, Father Andrew, THANK YOU for being objective and noting that a page titled "Western Rite and Old Calendarists" was about the Western Rite and Old Calendarists. I would love to review what "Willibrord" was "confirming"-- forgive my presumption but the man has an agenda. I wish I had the exact quote of Patriarch Elias of Antioch the first time he saw the "St Tikhon" liturgy: to paraphrase, he expressed surprised at an Orthodox liturgy that never once mentioned the Theotokos. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 21:14, July 18, 2008 (UTC)

== Something the North Got Right ==

"I'm a Southerner by birth and at heart, though I do wish there were more proper bakeries south of the Mason-Dixon Line. That's possibly one of the major things Yankees have gotten right."

They didn't do too bad at emancipation or crop-burning, either.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 03:36, June 28, 2008 (UTC)

== Wikipedia: article or version permalink ==

I am curious as to why you changed the Wikipedia link back to the general article (for the [[Leo VI]] article). Since the Wikipedia page was listed as a source, my understanding is that OrthodoxWiki prefers the version permalink (cf. [[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual (Importing)]]); for external links (not sources), I can understand using the interwiki for the general Wikipedia article, but this one is a source. —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 16:22, July 1, 2008 (UTC)

== Non-standard characters ==

I remember (so I hope this happened) discussing on the wiki the policy of using standard Latin characters for article names. However, I cannot find any mention of this policy or any discussion about it. I checked the move log, and the only moves for "standard characters" are mine. Do you remember anything about this, or do you have thoughts on writing this up as a policy? (I think it's a good idea to have non-standard characters within the article, and as a redirect to the article.) —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 22:06, July 1, 2008 (UTC)

== "African Orthodox Chruch" ==
Hi Fr Andrew :)
I wanted to ask you about a topic I just came across.... In the [[Time of Church History]] article, the entry for 1924 refers to:
''"..Bp. Daniel William Alexander convenes meeting in Kimberley, South Africa, which decides to secede from the African Church (a Protestant denomination) and affiliate with the "African Orthodox Church" in New York under George McGuire;"''

Anyways, I accidentally came across a webpage that discusses the history of the [http://www.coltranechurch.org/african.htm "African Orthodox Church"], stating "The A.O.C. was founded by George Alexander McGuire in 1921."

After reading this short summary, I am still not sure who this group is,..obsvioulsy non-canonical with mainstream Orthodoxy?? So, should we have an article on this group in the OW, for clarification purposes? Or at least an article on George Alexander McGuire? What do you think?
Cheers,
Chris.
[[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 18:32, July 4, 2008 (UTC)

== A request for Orthodox Christian participants in a project ==

Dear Admin AsDamick,

Since I believe in the unity of saints in regards to Christendom as a whole and because I have read excellent works written by Orthodox Christians, I was hoping to get the Orthodox Christian community involved in a project.

The project I currently have going is the refutation of atheism on the internet. As part of this effort, I created what is likely the seventh most popular article on atheism on the internet in the English speaking world and the article can be found here: http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism The article is currently ranked #7 at Google USA for the search "atheism". I can use this article to help other articles rank high on the search engines for various articles on atheism by featuring those articles in the aforementioned article.

I currently work in the search engine optimization field which is simplified is helping clients rank high for Google for various topics and searches. I am willing to teach you some excellent principles in regards to this field so your material would likely have prominence on the internet. The principles are easy to learn and it would be my pleasure to teach my fellow Christians involved in a anti-atheism campaign some fundamental principles in regards to getting their material to rank high for the search engines and do it on a volunteer basis.

Since Orthodox Christianity suffered greatly under atheistic communism, I would like to have the Orthodox Community be a part of the anti-atheism campaign. Also, there are many Orthodox Christians. Perhaps you could provide me useful feedback in relation to the above anti-atheism article. Also, perhaps you could help me gain the contributions of Orthodox Christians to the anti-atheism campaign.

I decided to start this campaign partly due to the the New Atheism that has reared its head as of late.

Please let me know if you or others are interested in any of the above. You can contact me at my user talk page. [[User:Manchuria|Manchuria]] 14:49, July 13, 2008 (UTC)

== OSource Main Page ==

Hi, could you please replace current Main Page code with revised code that I have temporarily placed at: '''[[osource:Sandbox]]'''. Thanks - [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:05, July 16, 2008 (UTC)

== Hosting copyright material on OrthodoxSource ==

Hi, I have received permission from an Orthodox priest to host his articles on OrthodoxSource. Now, I wanted to make sure that this would be ok before going and dumping his articles on OS so that I dont get (a) myself into trouble and (b) OrthodoxSource into trouble. What is the process for "documenting" the permission to use the article? Its only me that has a copy of this email on my private gmail email - do I forward Father John Schroedel a copy and is that enough to cover orthodoxSource from copyright issues???? I am very interested to understand what to do from here before I start dumping his material. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 02:02, July 21, 2008 (UTC)

== Help Me ... please ==

Can you please modify the Main Page on OrthodoxSource to '''"remove"''' the sentence ''"An online repository of archival and contemporary open-license Orthodox content..."'' which advertises orthodoxSource as "Open-license" ...

I was emailing Father John Schroedel who explained that by this sentence it can be understood that: ''by open-license, I would mean something that can be freely copied, and perhaps modified. The Creative Commons licenses do a good job of allowing a range of terms and conditions while still encouraging the free use of the content.''

This is one of his concerns, since he visions: ''I had envisioned, for example, putting archival/historical content there -- such as the old pamphlets that constitute a large part of the printed record of Orthodox in the U.S. in the early part of the last century, or photos of Orthodox places that are distributed under a creative commons license, or other public materials, epecially those items of significance for the history and identity of the Orthodox community.''

I would like to make him happy (and do things right of course) but I can not modify the Main Page to rectify this mistake of mine :-) That sentence ''"An online repository of archival and contemporary open-license Orthodox content..."'' is a direct cut and paste from "WikiSource" when I was setting up the structure and since you have locked the Main Page, I can not rectify my edit ...
- [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 23:49, July 21, 2008 (UTC)

== Fr John - old Pamphlets ==

Hi, because I am in Australia picking up the phone is a hard thing to do :-) Can you speak with Father John and ask him which Pamphlets he would like loaded onto OrthodoxSource. I am happy to start "setting" it all up for him ...if you like you can email me the *.pdf's on my personal email ... Do you know how to access my email without me having to post it publicaly? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:07, July 22, 2008 (UTC)

: I really have no idea what you're talking about. Unfortunately, I am also unable to do much outside contact at the moment, since I am at a clergy conference and away from home. (I also don't even have Fr. John's phone number!) —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:31, July 23, 2008 (UTC)

== Taxiarhis ==

Look, thanks for that. I did a OW search on the word "Taxiarhis" and did not find it ... it never occured to me to search on the "Taxiar'''c'''his" spelling ... thanks for fixing up and sorry to waste your time on something I should have picked up in the first instance. - [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 23:14, July 30, 2008 (UTC)

== Good-morning ==

Hi, I am a little confused because I didnt revert anyones edits (?) As for the actual note you left on my page ... Thanks and Sorry, if I "intercepted" the edit by the Publication company but I didnt think (at the time) I made any drastic changes (like I didnt delete anything). I dont believe I 'disciplined' them either I made a friendly suggestion and encouraged them by even adding a link and the potential for them to contribute! Anyway, I dont know why as a grown woman I have to explain and apologise by now you should know that I am keen in assisting here so by default - SORRY! Thanks for the heads-up! Maybe you can think about "using"/or "directing" me towards what you actually want from me because quite frankly it gets tiring doing the wrong thing all the time :-) and then being 'advised' :-) so, I will leave it up to you to leave a "task list" for me to follow through on. Cheerio and God Bless. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 22:50, August 6, 2008 (UTC)

== Email ==
What are the steps in "My Preferences" for making my email accessible without being public? - [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 23:07, August 6, 2008 (UTC)

==Talk:Sarum Use==
Hello Fr, I was trying to add some comments to this discussion page, and when I tried to save it removed all existing comments. Tried to undo the revision, and the undo did not save. Not able to restore,,can you please help?? Thanks,
[[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 21:22, August 26, 2008 (UTC)

== http://www.chrysostom.org/writings.html ==

Hi, two of your links do now work on the "Writings" page ...
:BEATITUDES: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/matthom15.html
:LORDS PRAYER: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/matthom19.html
I thought you might want to know this so you could update the page.
[[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 23:28, November 2, 2008 (UTC)

PS. I also took a photo of an icon of Chrysostom within the Church of the Holy Trinity, Taksim, Constantinople. It is a gorgeous fresco of him ... I am more than happy to give you permmission to use it on your webpage ... oh yeah, and His relics (God Bless, at the Patriarchate I was weeping when I realised who I was venerating) ...one catch only ... can you change the background colour of the web page from black to something more positive and colourful like white?? LOL [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 23:30, November 2, 2008 (UTC)

== Osource ==
Hey, it's getting all too hard :-)

I ''have'' asked in the past for some assistance but been ignored - except for Andrew, who has legitimately stepped in and helped set up codes and stuff. Awesome guy. I can offer again, what I said months ago, ... if '''you''', or someone, can just '''DUMP material''' into a Sandbox ... that you believe should be ON Osource or you want on Osource ... I will do the clean up work and categorisation and formatting the very next day :-) if we dont all come to some working solution the site will just sit there neglected ... which would be such a shame as there are many people who are accessing it to read the articles.

So, what do you say? Will you work with me? Give me 'dumps' of "anytyhing" that does not breach copyright and I will fix it up for the good of OW/OS and the Orthodox community?

[[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 22:29, November 20, 2008 (UTC)

== Updating The Great Schism ==

Fr. Andrew:

Who would you prefer that I get permission from to post this material? (I will do so, if possible) , because I believe it will greatly benefit this article!

Thanks,

Jaye (Jacifus)

== Great Schism Edit ==

Fr.

I respectfully disagree that the Entire Eastern Church was not excommunicated. The Bull said as much. I refer you to Bishop Kallistos "The Orthodox Church". I consider his account to be carefully researched and accurate.

Jaye (jacifus)

: Please refer comments on the content of specific articles to their respective talk pages. Thanks! —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 01:08, December 14, 2008 (UTC)

== Editing OId Believers ==

Dear father Andrew,

Perhaps you should have a look at the Old Believers article one again. All cleaning up has been reverted by Fatman2021, without any explanation on the Discussion page.

I suppose we don't leave the article as it is now and if you have the authority to clean up once again, I'd strongly suggest you'd do so. (If I were to do the job, I'm afraid an edit war with Fatman2021 may become inevitable.)
[[User:Vasstar|Vasstar]] 14:13, December 14, 2008 (UTC)

== URGENT - Ambush by computer generated Users ==

Hi, we are about to be ambushed by computer generated User accounts ....... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:05, December 17, 2008 (UTC)

==Name of ROC==

I have read the policy by the link you have indicated. Frankly, i did not quite get the meaning clear, or the purpose thereof. The thing with the ROC is that there are 2 legally official names of the entity (as registered by the RF Justice Minisrty): ''Русская православная церковь'' and ''Московский патриархат''. In all honesty, the name used in the relevant article has never been in existence, albeit it could be an historiographic designation covering the multitude of names; in effect the ROC had not had a properly official name prior to 1943, when it was formally recognised by state under this name.[[User:Muscovite99|Max]] 18:00, December 18, 2008 (UTC)

: This is answered on [[Talk:Church of Russia]]. As is noted in a number of our policy documents, we have our own taxonomy here, which often does not reflect official, legal names. The official OrthodoxWiki standard for all Orthodox churches is ''Church of [Place]''. This policy has been in effect pretty much since the wiki was founded in 2004. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 19:37, December 18, 2008 (UTC)
::*I can perfectly see the logic behind such taxonomy and even accept it. But the point is, as i noted in my original edit comment, that such designation is not only formally incorrect, but in essence as well (by essence i mean the ecclesiological reasoning that obviously underpins your taxonomy). This is no more a Church of Russia than it is a Church of Ukraine (in fact, Ukraine could well lay a historically better grounded claim to it), or Latvia, for that matter. If one were to base the wording of the designation on the title of a Primate in question (which would be a legitimate thing to do within your taxonomy), the article would have to be called "Church of Moscow" (or "Church of Rus"). Paradoxically, you have chosen to employ the current official name of a country, which constitutes only a fraction (less than half by parish numbers) of the "canonical territory" of the ROC. How can you warrant that?[[User:Muscovite99|Max]] 20:00, December 22, 2008 (UTC)

::: It's warranted with a combination of basic ecclesiology (i.e., the Church is not "Russian," "Greek," etc., but it is the Church in and of a particular place—Russia, Greece, etc.) and of English usage. ("Church of Russia" gets about 30,000 hits on Google.) It's notably the usage of such groups as the OCA[http://www.oca.org/OCworldrussia.asp?SID=2], etc. Of course its usage pales in comparison with "Russian Orthodox Church," but that term is objectionable for the reasons previously noted. ("Church of Moscow" is a somewhat idiosyncratic term hardly ever used except in larger, translated phrases such as "Estonian Church of Moscow Patriarchate.")

::: The many parishes in Ukraine are covered by a separate article: [[Church of Ukraine]] (along with articles on the irregular bodies, as well).

::: No matter what one names these articles, they'll not be satisfactory to all. This is what our policy here is. Our policy has been to use the city names for the ancient patriarchates but common country names for the newer autocephalous and autonomous churches (the exceptions are the OCA, which is of somewhat irregular status, and the Church of Sinai, which designates a region). You'll notice that this is consistently the case.

::: Anyway, the proper place to discuss the names of articles is on the talk pages of the articles themselves. That way, everyone interested in working on the article can participate. Please direct future comments to [[Talk:Church of Russia]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 21:25, December 22, 2008 (UTC)

== Prove to Me that We need that Guy ==

I will be the first to put UP my hand and say "WE NEED THAT GUY"! bet you never thought I would say that they way "sou vgazo glwssa oli tin wra" [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:15, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

: Vasiliki, it's not "we need ''that guy''," but rather I'm the Guy Who Says "Prove To Me That We Need That [article/addition/thing/etc.]." There is a reason why I placed the hyphens where I did. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 21:04, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
::I give up ... I just wish you could not be so 'scholastic'with me some times and just ... lighten up :) I apologise in advance ... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 13:13, December 20, 2008 (UTC)

::: Vasiliki, it's not "scholastic" to expect that readers actually read carefully. It's just good language usage. There's a reason why grammar, syntax, punctuation, etc., work the way they do. It might help if you didn't so frequently assume the worst when reading what other folks write.

::: Certainly, perhaps this level of reading and writing comprehension is not needed for everyday life (though I think it is!), but it surely is absolutely crucial when writing a reference work like an encyclopedia! Indeed, if being "scholastic" is needed anywhere, it's here. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 16:21, December 20, 2008 (UTC)

== Timeline ==
Hello Father, Eulogeite. First I wanted to wish you very warm Christmas wishes. Christ is born, Glorify Him! :)
I wanted to ask if I can proceed and create the 10 sub-articles for the Timeline of Church History article (one sub-article for each of the 10 periods listed on the main article). Each sub-article would look exactly the same as the main article now does ,except that it would contain only the information for that particular era of course. I proposed a criterion on the talk page for what may be included on the reduced main timeline page; basically, if you agree and I can proceed to create the 10 sub-articles, with your blessing, and then shorten the remaining main article according to the criteria I attempted to set out, it would be great; I would emphasize that no information would be lost -- all the complete listings of the current timeline would remain on the 10-sub-articles. Or, I could create the 10-sub-rticles, and then you could do the final edit (reduction) of the main page then? Just an idea! Please let me know what you think! Cheers and Merry Christmas Father. Chris. :)
[[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 03:03, December 21, 2008 (UTC)

==Deletion of template==
HEY - you deleted two templates so all the information on these is GONE! How do I get the information back? I know you are the moderator/administrator but can you PLEASE just ONCE be kinder ... give me a 24 hour notice to MOVE the information????? Can you please resupply the stuff IN the templates. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:00, January 1, 2009 (UTC)

: It's not gone. I've noted on your Talk page where you can find it. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 13:50, January 1, 2009 (UTC)

== Font Colours ==

Which article talks about how to do font colours and different text styles in HTML? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:25, January 5, 2009 (UTC)

: There isn't one on the wiki. There are plenty of HTML tutorials elsewhere, though. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 04:20, January 6, 2009 (UTC)

== Ah you're a quick one! ==

Not bad--you got rid of my talk post in just less than 24 hours. Not bad...my hat's off to you sir! You have a gift for wiki-editing!{{unsigned|AmanUwellCant}}

: Inherently disruptive posts without any engagement regarding content are removed as a matter of form. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 01:56, January 22, 2009 (UTC)

== Thank U for the work you put in ==

I am not the site owner but I am sure that if awards could be given to the most hard-woring Users on Orthodoxwiki there would be three to give out: you, Wsk and ASDamick! I wanted to pause at this point in my OrthodoxWiki career and acknowledge the efforts of those people who really do put a lot of time and effort into keeping OW alive and say Thank you for the work and time you put into making the articles rewarding!!! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:55, January 20, 2009 (UTC)

== Antioch and the Armenians ==
I have been to a canonical Antiochian church where they gave communion to Armenians . How do they do this ? [[User:Eugene|Eugene]] 20:25, January 23, 2009 (UTC)

: Is it a sin to be ethnically Armenian? Anyway, I cannot answer for what is done in a particular parish. Why not talk to the pastor? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:44, January 23, 2009 (UTC)

As in Armenian Apostolic. And he said that they were in communion with them, that's why I'm asking you because you said on your page that it's not possible [[User:Eugene|Eugene]] 23:49, January 23, 2009 (UTC)

: The Armenian Apostolic church is not in communion with the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch. This is how my and all the bishops of our Archdiocese consistently answer when questioned on the topic.

: Again, I cannot answer for what is done at a parish which is outside of my responsibility, especially when it is not clear that all the facts are apparent. (We have, for instance, Coptic Christians who commune at our parish, but that is because they are members of our parish, having been received into communion through confession of faith.) —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 00:52, January 24, 2009 (UTC)

== Technical problem ==

I am a new user and could not find the detailed information about how to bring images from Wikimedia Commons to Orthodox Wiki. I would be very grateful if you could help. [[User:Bag|Bag]] 21:28, March 6, 2009 (UTC)

== Article titles ==

Hi, should I put the country name in the titles of my articles on churches (like Białystok, Poland)? They're already cathegorized as "Polish churches" so I don't think it's necessary. [[User:Bag|Bag]] 09:06, March 9, 2009 (UTC)

== Chrysostom ==
Hello again, I looked at the St. John Chrysostom page, and thought that the St. John Chrysostom Oratorical Festival should be included. It would show that he has inspired children to orate the word of God to others, continuing in his footsteps. Since I have participated in the past and am in it again this year, I though it would be a good idea to mention it, and maybe put a link to the [[GOARCH]] website where they talk more about it and give more information. Tell me what you think! Thanks, --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 18:01, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

: I've responded to your comment at [[Talk:John Chrysostom]]. In the future, you may wish to keep your comments limited only to the specific article in question. Posting it in multiple places is not in itself likely to gain notice. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 01:36, March 19, 2009 (UTC)

== Is WO a live forum of information or is it selective in the information it displays? ==

This post refers to your changes in the page;

St. George Free Serbian Orthodox Church (Forrest, Australian Capital Territory)

I myself am not involved on the dispute and have no intention of support to either side in this tragedy.

When I originally viewed this page I was disheartened to observe the lack of information and that misleading information had been posted there. I understand that this most likely had been posted by a user and as such is not subject to your personal knowledge.

I conducted several days of investigation and research in order to update the page appropriately and even went to the extent of seeking the authorisation to post the information from the Church and organisation, which they granted.

I find it offensive that you would label this work as “Heavily Point of View”.

I fail to understand why you would allow false and misleading information to remain posted. A young and inspired person chooses to update the page using only fact and you would rather support outdated and misinformed material.

The general community that observed this page in its renewed form offered significant positive feedback.

I will stand corrected if you can show me grounds for your dismissal of my updates to this page? I can provide you with factual record and account of all the information I had posted on that page and request that it be allowed to remain.

If persons should see fit to add to that information, I implore them to do so.

Otherwise I believe that the page should be removed as it displays false and misleading information and if you should require I can have this formally requested from the community and association which this information refers to?

I can understand your removal of the Postal address and agree fairly to the emission of such information. All I ask is be fair in relation to the content of the post?

I am willing to build and develop the page if you can suggest some points that would make the information less “Point of View”?

Young Serb

:[[User:Young_Serb|Young Serb]], I suspect that the conclusion of the original article (which was ''very'' POV) may have taken from the facts that were in play. In response to [[User:ASDamick|Fr Andrew]]'s request, I have taken the liberty of bringing the two together.
:Please consider that, as a parish, the subject matter was dubiously noteworthy enough to place on OrthodoxWiki; as a parish that has now placed itself outside the Church, more so. This doesn't excuse incorrect information, of course; but if you consider that details are sparse, this may have been done for a reason - this is, conceptually, an encyclopaedia, and is therefore rather lacking in emotive speech and in minutiae. However, should you find the article to still be misleading, please correct it. — by [[User:Pistevo|Pιsτévο]] ''[[User talk:Pistevo|talk]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|complaints]]'' at 13:37, April 24, 2009 (UTC)

== Azarias? ==
Χριστος ανεστη! This has nothing to do with Orthodox Wikipedia, but when I read the 3 youths passage on Holy Saturday, I noticed that Azarias is not one of the original three youths. there's Meeshak, Shadrack, and Abendago. Those three are describes throughout the whole reading, but then it says that Azarias said something. Who is Azarias? Thanks, --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 17:29, April 24, 2009 (UTC)

Mormonism

2009-03-26T20:13:07Z

Iliada: Fixing error

'''Mormonism''' is a [[heresy|heretical]] religion founded in 1830 by [[Joseph Smith, Jr.]] Most of its adherents comprise the [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints|Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]] or "LDS" Church, with headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah; its second-largest sect is the [[Community of Christ]], in Independence, Missouri. Total membership for the LDS church as of 2008 is 13,000,000,<ref>"LDS Church says membership now 13 million worldwide", ''Salt Lake Tribune'', June 25, 2007.</ref> with 250,000 in the Community of Christ<ref>http://www.cofchrist.org/news/GeneralInfo.asp. This organization was known as the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" until 2001.</ref> and perhaps 50,000 in several smaller sects.

==Brief History==
Mormonism began on April 6, 1830 in Fayette, New York, as an alleged "restoration" of the original Apostolic Church. Its originator, Joseph Smith, Jr., asserted that he had seen two celestial "personages" in 1820 who claimed to be God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. These "personages" told Smith that all existing churches--including the Orthodox Church--were false, and that he had been chosen to "restore" the one true Church.

Attracting a host of converts, Smith's new religion also garnered intense persecution, necessitating moves in turn to Ohio, Missouri, and finally Illinois, where Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844. Smith's movement fragmented following his demise, with the majority eventually following Brigham Young to Utah.

Plural marriage proved a source of dissension, especially between the Utah Mormons and the smaller Community of Christ, which rejected the doctrine. Polygamy also caused trouble between the LDS church and the U.S. government, until its practice was banned in 1890. Throughout the last century, Mormons fought to project an image of wholesome, family-oriented Christianity, reaping millions of converts and emerging as a formidible presence on the world religous scene.

With the fall of communism, the LDS extended their prosletyzing efforts into traditionally Orthodox countries, including Russia, which passed a law in 1997 designed to hamper their efforts and those of other Western sects.

==Compared To Holy Orthodoxy==
''(This section is concerned with the organization and theology of the Utah LDS church, which contains the majority of the world's Mormons. While the Community of Christ church is similarly organized, its beliefs differ rather sharply from LDS Mormonism in many respects, as do the beliefs and organization of the smaller sects. However, all Latter Day Saint sects remain diametrically opposed to Orthodox Church teaching in most essential regards.)''

Mormonism as a whole encompasses a mélange of many different religious beliefs, the vast majority of which are contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Joseph Smith gleaned inspiration from various religious movements of his time, including [[Campbellism|Campbellite]], [[Restorationism|Restorationist]], and [[Universalism|Universalist]]. However, the foundation of Mormon belief is the acceptance of modern prophecy and revelation, and an "open canon" of [[Scripture|Holy Scripture]].

Even though they consider themselves Christians, they preach the lie of the devil, where Orthodox Christians curse it. They believe that man had to fall, for man to become God. The Orthodox belief is that we become "like-god," while the Mormon belief is that all people become gods. They believe that all people are spirits before they are born, and when they die, they become gods. Many Mormons have large families with many children, because they believe that every child born is a spirit from the spirit world, one day to become a god. In their temple, they reenact the scene of paradise.

===Mormon Organization===
While Joseph Smith taught that any person with a testimony of Christ is a [[prophet]], the LDS church remains a hierarchial organization with a President/Prophet, usually assisted by two "Counselors", who alone possesses the "keys" to all prophetic power. Most members of the LDS church believe that their current president, Thomas S. Monson (as of 2008), is the sole person authorized to speak definitively for God on the earth today. Below this "First Presidency" are twelve "Apostles," who are also considered "prophets, seers, and revelators," but who do not exercize the prerogatives held by the president. Beneath these apostles are the "Seventies," concerned with heading up Mormon missionary efforts, together with a "Presiding Bishopric" largely relegated to temporal concerns. These men are referred to as the "General Authorities" of the LDS church.<ref>All Utah LDS priesthood offices are limited to men; the Community of Christ, on the other hand, ordains both men and women (since 1984).</ref>

A local Mormon congregation, called a "ward" (equivalent to an Orthodox parish), is headed by a "bishop" (equivalent to an Orthodox parish priest). A group of wards occupying a specific geographical area is organized into a "stake" (equivalent to an Orthodox diocese), headed by a "stake president" (equivalent to an Orthodox bishop). The disparity between Mormon and Orthodox usage of "bishop" can cause confusion for the uninitiated!

Another source of confusion is the Mormon use of the word "elder." While Orthodox Christians use "elder" to refer to a holy person who has been given a special gift of spiritual insight and direction (but who is not necessarily a priest, or even a male), Mormons use this term to refer to a specific office in the "Melchizedek Priesthood," the higher of their two "priesthoods" (the "lesser" priesthood is referred to as the "Aaronic Priesthood"). "Elder" is the lowest office in this higher priesthood, and is generally held by all male members over the age of eighteen deemed "worthy" of it (the vast majority).

"Patriarch" also has a different usage for Mormons than for Orthodox; instead of referring to the chiefest of Orthodox bishops, this term is used to describe an office in the higher Mormon priesthood mostly concerned with the giving of special "patriarchial blessings" to church members.

===The "Doctrine of Eternal Progression"===
A major pillar of Mormon belief is their concept of [[theosis|deification]], which they refer to as the "Doctrine of Eternal Progression." In opposition to the Trinitarian dogmas of the [[First Ecumenical Council|First]] and [[Second Ecumenical Council|Second]] [[Ecumenical Council|Ecumenical Councils]], Mormons believe that [[God]] the Father, whom they refer to as "Elohim"<ref>LDS Bible Dictionary, Entry "God," at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/g/43. This doctrine, incidentally, is vehemently rejected by the Community of Christ and most smaller Mormon sects.</ref> or "Heavenly Father," was originally a flesh-and-blood human being, who was spiritually "begotten" by another "god" (and his "godess" wife) and then physically born on another planet (not Earth). "Elohim" lived a normal human life, and by embracing his world's version of Mormonism, he "progressed" to become the "god" he is today.<ref>Numerous quotes from Mormon leaders on this topic, past and present, may be read at http://blog.mrm.org/category/eternal-progression/. See also the ''Mormonwiki'' article on "Eternal progression" at http://www.mormonwiki.org/Eternal_progression.</ref>

Having attained to "godhood," this "Elohim" and his wife were enabled to create and populate their own universe--namely, ours--with spiritual offspring who, by coming to earth and taking on human flesh, embracing and fully living the Mormon religion, and "enduring to the end," could themselves acquire "godhood," where they in turn could begin this process anew. It should be noted that this LDS doctrine of "pre-existence" of spirits, by which we all are alleged to have existed "spiritually" in heaven prior to our birth on this earth, was specifically condemned by the [[Fifth Ecumenical Council]].

For a casual observer, this may seem similar to the Church's teaching of [[theosis]], but this is most emphatically ''not'' so:

:'''First''', there is a definite distinction in the Church between God and mankind, between the Creator and His Creation. God is eternal, and existed for eternity prior to (and entirely separate from) His creation (which, unlike its Creator, is ''not'' eternal), until the incarnation of the pre-eternal Word of God, the Second Person of the [[Holy Trinity|Most Holy Trinity]], as Our Lord [[Jesus Christ]]. This was a unique union between God and His creation, which never existed before. Mormonism, on the other hand, teaches that only matter and intelligence are truly eternal (not God), and that ''all'' of their "gods" essentially "evolved" in the same fashion, from physical matter.
:'''Second''', the Orthodox Church clearly teaches that the Most Holy Trinity has ''always'' existed precisely as one God: "the Trinity, One in Essence, and Undivided." Mormonism, on the other hand, teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in "purpose" only, and most emphatically ''not'' one in essence or hypostasis (as the Orthodox Church teaches). They are three "gods," say the Mormons, and not "one" in anything except a common purpose and mindset. Furthermore, say they, there are potentially billions of "gods" beyond the three they acknowledge as belonging to this world. All of this is diametrically opposed to Orthodox Christian teaching.
:'''Third''', Theosis is a unification between God and mankind, not the creation of an entirely separate deity (or dieties).

Mormonism's designation by Orthodoxy as being "[[heretic|heretical]]"--instead of "[[heterodox]]," as is the case with the Roman Catholic and most major Protestant faiths--stems primarily from their spurious doctrines on the Holy Trinity and the nature of God, together with various other specious beliefs.

Mormons have a very difficult time understanding why Orthodox and other Christians deny that they are Christian. The simplest answer to this question is that the Mormon god is simply ''not'' God--at least not the God worshipped by Orthodox Christians (and other Trinitarians). This does not mean that the Mormons are necessarily immoral or wicked people, simply that they worship a god completely dissimilar from the Christian Trinity.

===Attaining to "Godhood"===
While Mormonism claims to focus on salvation through the atonement of Jesus Christ, their concept of ''exaltation'' goes far beyond this. All of mankind, say the Mormons, will be saved from death through the [[resurrection]] of Christ; but it is only those whom God judges as obedient and faithful, and who receive specific saving ordinances (which will be offered to every person that has ever lived), who will be exalted to the highest of the three "degrees of glory" which comprise the Mormon heaven. Only those exalted to this "Celestial glory" will become "gods." Those in the lower two degrees,<ref>These are referred to as "Terrestrial" and "Telestial," respectively, in LDS ''Doctrine & Covenants'' Section 76.</ref> while enjoying a blessed and happy state, will still be limited in their "progression" and will never have the chance to move to a higher existence.

To attain to "Celestial glory," one must be baptized as a Mormon by "true authority" (meaning a regularly-ordained member of their church), "confirmed" by the same, and receive certain "sacred" or "higher" ordinances that can only be had within a Mormon temple. While Orthodox Christians often tend to use the term "temple" to refer to any Orthodox Church building, Mormons use it only for specific structures specially dedicated as such.<ref>The regular Mormon meetinghouses are generally called "chapels" or "stake centers," and unlike their temples, are generally open to the public.</ref>

Within these structures, Mormons practice (for themselves, or on behalf of others) certain esoteric rituals:
:'''Baptism for the Dead''', where living proxies act on behalf of deceased persons who are then "baptized" into the LDS church; names are obtained from geneological research, for which the Mormons are world-famous. This practice was rejected by the Council of Hippo and the Third Council of Carthage, and St. [[John Chrysostom]] associated it with the heretical [[Marcionism|Marcionites]]. St. [[Clement of Alexandria]] indicated that Baptism for the Dead was a doctrine also particular to the [[Gnostics]].
:'''The so-called "Endowment'''," where initiates are taught the "fullness" of Mormon doctrine on such subjects as the "plurality of Gods," the Mormon version of creation, and the process by which one may "progress to godhood." Additionally, participants take a solemn oath never to reveal anything that goes on in the temple, as well as oaths to faithfully abide by all Mormon teachings. This ritual is essentially a "contract" between the Mormon "god" and his adherents, by which they promise to obey his laws and earthly leadership, and he in turn promises to advance them to "godhood" upon their resurrection. Many elements of this rite were stolen from the heretical [[Freemasonry|Freemasons]], and Joseph Smith (who had been a Master Mason himself) was expelled from that fraternity as a result.
:'''Marriage for Eternity''', where participants, upon receiving their "Endowment," are married "for time and all eternity." This is seen as an indespensible requirement for "godhood."<ref>LDS ''Doctrine & Covenants'', Section 131. See http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/131.</ref> The Orthodox Church has traditionally rejected this concept.

The Mormon hell, by the way, is limited to those few who have apostasized from the Mormon religion, broken their oath of secrecy about the Temple rituals, committed murder after becoming a Mormon, or are guilty of other very serious offenses--together with the devil and his fallen angels.

===Alleged "brotherhood" of Christ and Satan===
In the ''Pearl of Great Price'', "Book of Moses" 4:1-4 and "Book of Abraham" 3:27, Mormonism's god explains that in the "preexistence," he asked for a volunteer to serve as the savior of humankind. Two of his "spirit-sons," Jesus and Lucifer, obliged. Lucifer wanted to compel all humans to follow God, while Jesus insisted on the right of each person to choose for themselves. When "Elohim" chose Jesus over Lucifer, say the Mormons, Lucifer rebelled and was cast out of heaven with his followers. They were deprived of all chance to receive a fleshly body, and thus barred from any chance at "godhood."

The June 1986 ''Ensign'', official magazine of the LDS Church, affirmed the teaching that Christ and Satan are, indeed, "spirit brothers"--albeit diametrically opposed "brothers."<ref>Read the entire article at http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=4a10ef960417b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1.</ref>

All of these teachings, needless to say, are emphatically rejected by the Orthodox Church.

===The Mormon Concept of Angels===
In contrast to Orthodoxy, which views angels (whether righteous or fallen) as a separate class of beings created by God prior to--and separate from--humanity, Mormonism sees angels as being either pre-existent spirits of human beings not yet physically born, or the spirits of departed "righteous" men, such as characters from the Bible and the ''Book of Mormon.'' "Moroni," the alleged "angel" who showed the golden plates of the ''Book of Mormon'' to Joseph Smith (see below), was supposed to have been an ancient American prophet who figures prominently in the final portions of that book.

While the Orthodox Church traditionally admonishes her children to mistrust ''any'' spiritual manifestations they might see (even the saints have sometimes been deceived by demons, such as St. [[Nikita the Venerable]] of Novgorod, for instance!), Joseph Smith offered his followers a novel test by which he claimed to be able to discern true angels of God from demons. This task, which involved asking to shake the "angel's" hand (Smith said one would not feel the "angel's" hand, if it were a demon), may be found in LDS ''Doctrine and Covenants'' Section 129.<ref>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Doctrine_and_Covenants/Section_129</ref> However, the life of St. [[Martin of Tours]] illustrates that the demons are quite capable of affecting human sensory perceptions--including the human sense of touch--contrary to Joseph Smith's assertion.<ref>See St. Martin's story at http://celticchristianity.org/COCQ/COCM200111.html, or in Chapter Five of Rose, Fr. Seraphim, ''Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future'', St. Herman of Alaska Press, 1980.</ref>

==="The Great [[Apostasy]]" and Apostolic Succession===
Like many Restorationist heresies, Mormons believe that the [[Orthodox Church|Church]] entered an age of opprobrium several years after its founding.<ref>Mormons tend to follow the Western error that posits Roman Catholicism, rather than Eastern Orthodoxy, as the most ancient of contemporary Christian faiths. Many are suprised to learn that Orthodoxy even exists! However, learning of Orthodoxy's existence and claims does not alter their beliefs in the slightest.</ref> In doing so, say they, it lost all right to perform sacraments, consecrate priests, or otherwise act in God's name. And from that moment until 1830, say the Mormons, there was no true Church anywhere on the earth. While Mormons offer no specific date for this alleged catastrophe, they tend to believe that it had occurred by the era of St. [[Constantine the Great]] and the [[First Ecumenical Council]] in A.D. 325. The Orthodox Church, which traces her unbroken succession to the Apostles themselves and alone teaches the fullness of their doctrine, is ''ergo'' in apostasy (with all other non-LDS churches) according to the Mormons.

Mormons point to New Testament scriptures<ref>I Timothy 4:1, II Timothy 3:1-5, Acts 20:28-31, among others.</ref> that they assert as speaking of a complete apostasy of the entire Church, as proof of their claims. While Orthodox Christians would agree that these passages did indeed speak of apostates to come--such as [[Arius]], [[Nestorius]] and [[Paul of Samosata]], for instance--they emphatically reject the Mormon interpretation (advanced to varying degrees by nearly all Protestants) that the entire Apostolic Church would fall into heresy. In St. Matthew 16:18, our Lord clearly states that the "gates of hell shall not prevail" against the Church He had founded--a Church which the Mormons agree existed, but which they claim to have been subsequently "lost", in violation of our Lord's words.

Mormons believe ardently in the necessity of Apostolic Succession, which they refer to as "Priesthood succession" or "Priesthood lineage." However, since they recognize no valid church between the alleged "Great Apostasy" and the establishment of their own in 1830, they trace ''their'' succession to one of four "exalted beings,"<ref>The Mormons claim these beings to have been St. John the Baptist, and the Holy Apostles SS Peter, James and John.</ref> who purportedly visited Joseph Smith on two separate occasions in the 1820's, just prior to their church's founding.

===Gethsamene and Golgotha===
Utah Mormons generally reject all usage of the Holy [[Cross]] as a Christian symbol. The Mormon church teaches that the atonement of Christ took place, not primarily on the Cross, but rather in the Garden of Gethsamene the night before His crucifixion. The LDS Bible Dictionary entry for "Atonement" speaks of the shedding of Our Lord's blood as having taken place ''there''; His subsequent death on the Cross the following day is relegated to a seemingly secondary place. There is no entry for "Cross" in the LDS Bible Dictionary, and its cursory article on "crucifixion" makes no mention whatsoever of this salvific event having any role in His Atonement. The ''Mormonwiki'' article on "Atonement of Jesus Christ" contains a section entitled "Gethsamene and Golgotha," which emphasizes the time our Lord spent in the Garden of Gethsamene, alleging that it was ''here'' that the genuine "shedding of blood" took place to effect our salvation.

Many Mormon leaders have denounced the wearing or display of the Cross by Mormons. Some of their statements are contained in an essay entitled "Why Are There No Crosses on Mormon Churches and Temples?"<ref>http://members.tripod.com/~Aarius/nocross.htm.</ref>

On the other hand, the late Fr. Michael Pomazansky, author of ''Orthodox Dogmatic Theology'', shows the Orthodox teaching on the Cross as both the ''path'', ''power'' and ''banner'' of the Church. In his essay "The Cross of Christ" (printed in this same book), he gives the Orthodox teaching on the vital importance of our Lord's Cross as the indispensible weapon, not merely in the general victory against Satan and his angels won at Calvary, but equally in our own individual struggles for salvation.<ref>Pomazansky, Protopresbyter Michael, ''Orthodox Dogmatic Theology: A Concise Exposition''; St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1997, pp. 326-30.</ref>

===Original Sin and Infant Baptism===
Similar to the ancient heresy of [[Pelagianism|Pelagius]], Mormons teach that all human beings are born completely innocent; and they further assert that children are incapable of sin until they reach the age of eight years.<ref>See http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c2fb94859a4bb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1.</ref> The second Mormon "Article of Faith" (contained in the ''Pearl of Great Price'') teaches: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."<ref>http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1.</ref> Accordingly, infant baptism is vehemently rejected by the Mormon church.

In contrast, Orthodoxy teaches (unlike Roman Catholics and most Protestants) that while only [[Adam]] and [[Eve]] bear the ''guilt'' for their sin in the [[Garden of Eden]], they transmitted the ''consequences'' of that sin to their progeny. St. [[Anastasius the Sinaite]] wrote: "We became the inheritors of the curse in Adam. We were not punished as if we had disobeyed that divine commandment along with Adam; but because Adam became mortal, he transmitted sin to his posterity. We became mortal since we were born from a mortal."<ref>St. Anastasius the Sinaite, 19. Vide I.N. Karmirh, SUNOYIS THS DOGMATKHS THS ORQODOXOU EKKLHSIAS, s. 38. Quoted from Kalomiros, Dr. Alexandre, ''The River of Fire'', ch. IV, found at http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm.</ref> Thus, in keeping with Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, the Orthodox Church baptizes infants by triple immersion (as she does with adult converts, as well)--not to cleanse them of "[[original sin]]," but rather to give them the grace this holy [[sacrament]] imparts, together with access to the [[Eucharist|Holy Eucharist]] and all of the other means of grace she offers.<ref>Pomazansky, pp. 268-69.</ref>

===Miracles and Martyrs===
Mormons assert that one proof of their claims is the miracles claimed by members of their sect--and the comparative absence of these in other Christian denominations. This was emphasized during the early years of Mormonism, where their assertions of the "restoration" of the "gifts of the Spirit" contrasted sharply with Campbellite and other Protestants' assertions that such miracles had entirely ceased among Christians. Mormons insist that this cessation of such "gifts" comprises proof of their alleged "Great Apostasy" of the entire Church (see above).

Orthodoxy, however, offers an unbroken twenty-century history of [[wonderworker|wonderworkers]], miracles and gifts far surpassing anything the Mormons can adduce. The twentieth century alone saw SS [[Nectarios of Aegina]], [[John Maximovitch]] of San Francisco and [[John of Kronstadt]], among others; each preceding century offers additional proof that the true "gifts of the Holy Spirit" ''never'' ceased in the one, true (Orthodox) Church of Christ.

Mormonism believes in the concept of [[martyr|martyrdom]], offering various persons who have been murdered for professing the LDS religion since its inception. While it does not pray to these people, as Orthodox do to their martyrs and [[saint|saints]], it does venerate their memory and uphold them as examples to other Mormons. The LDS church offers its founder, Joseph Smith, Jr., as its chief "martyr," as he was murdered by an anti-Mormon mob in Carthage, Illinois, on June 27, 1844. However, whereas a martyr has always been understood by Orthodox Christians as one who dies voluntarily for the Faith without resisting his persecutors in any way (and indeed, while praying for and forgiving them), Joseph Smith did not die in this fashion. Rather, Smith used a six-shot pistol against his attackers, wounding three of them before being killed himself.<ref>''History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'', Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103.</ref>

While the murder of Smith was indeed a deplorable and henious act, it cannot be described as true "martyrdom" by Orthodox standards--not only because of Smith's resistance to his killers, but equally because he died for a false religion. "The martyrdom of heretics is suicide," say the Holy Fathers.<ref>http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/i_believe.aspx.</ref>

In contrast, Orthodoxy offers numerous genuine martyrs throughout her 2,000 year history, including nearly twenty-million who died during the twentieth century under Communist persecution. This list extends from the Holy Apostles themselves and their immediate disciples, right up to the present day. Fr. [[Alexander Men]], for instance, was martyred in Semkhoz, Russia in 1990, and Priestmonk [[Nestor (Savchuk)|Nestor Savchuk]] of Zharky, Russia was martyred there in 1993. Other Orthodox Christians have been martyred in the Serbian provice of Kosovo, within the past decade.<ref>http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/SerbianMartyrsOfthe20thCentury.htm.</ref><ref>http://www.kosovo.net/default2.html.</ref>

==Distinctive Mormon "Scriptures"==
===The Book of Mormon===
In 1823 Smith claimed to have been visited by an [[angel]] named Moroni, who told him of a chronicle of ancient history supposedly engraved in "Reformed Egyptian" on tablets of gold, and buried in a hill near Manchester, New York. Smith allegedly obtained these plates in 1827 and translated them into English via the use of two seer-stones which he called the "Urim and Thummim." These stones should not be confused with the [[Old Testament]] Urim and Thummim (the stones on the High Priest’s breastplate used to relay messages from God to the Israelites), though Mormons sometimes try to connect the two.

This translation became ''The Book of Mormon'', which is revered as "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" by Mormons. The monikers referring to Smith's church as "the Mormon Church" and its members as "Mormons" are derivations from''The Book of Mormon.'' This book purports to be a religious and secular history of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas--called Nephites, Lamanites, Mulekites, and Jaredites--from about 2200 B.C. to A.D. 421. It claims that at least some Native Americans are descended from groups of Near Eastern peoples (mostly [[Judaism|Jews]]) who immigrated during pivotal periods in Israel’s history.

The ''Book of Mormon'' claims that many of these people were openly-practicing [[Christian|Christians]], ''before'' the birth of Christ, with a functioning church organization that mirrored that later taught by Joseph Smith. According to Smith's text, the godly "Nephites" openly administered baptisms, "confirmations" and the Holy Eucharist eons ''before'' the coming of the Savior. The book even claims that our Lord came to visit these peoples Himself after His [[Ascension]]--after raining down several days of death and destruction on the evildoers among them. About four-hundred years after this alleged event, the "Nephites" were destroyed by the wicked "Lamanites," who became the primary ancestors of the Native American peoples.

Interestingly, over 3,000 changes have been noted between the ''Book of Mormon'' currently published by the LDS Church, and the original 1830 edition published by Joseph Smith. Most of these alterations were made by Smith himself, in later editions of the book printed during his own lifetime. For instance, in I Nephi 11:32, our Lord was originally referred to as "the eternal God," but is now referred to as "the ''son'' of the eternal God." In I Nephi 11:18, the [[Theotokos]] was initially referred to as "the mother of God," while today she is referred to as "the mother of the ''Son'' of God."<ref>http://www.geocities.com/swickersc/mormonbkchange.html.</ref>

Connections between the history and civilization portrayed in ''The Book of Mormon'' and evidence found by archaeologists in the Americas is debatable. Evidence of horses, elephants, cattle, barley, wheat, steel swords, chariots, shipbuilding, and other Old World paraphernalia has not been found to exist in the Americas until the advent of Europeans. Evidence of these people, the gold plates, or the "seer-stones" has yet to be found.<ref>See, for instance, the Smithsonian Institute's offical statement on the ''Book of Mormon'', at http://www.irr.org/mit/smithson.html.</ref>

===Other Mormon "Scriptures"===
Mormons also accept as Scripture the ''Doctrine and Covenants'', containing 138 "revelations" and two "official declarations" allegedly given to Joseph Smith and his successors; together with the ''Pearl of Great Price'', containing the "Book of Moses" (a rewriting by Joseph Smith of the first part of the Book of Genesis), the "Book of Abraham" (a purported account of the Patriarch [[Abraham]], with references to multiple "gods" in the act of creation, rather than one God), and various other texts by Smith.

Additionally, Joseph Smith rewrote the entire Bible "by inspiration" during his lifetime, making substantial additions to the text, deleting the Song of Solomon entirely, and otherwise shaping its text to conform to his own teachings (including an alleged prophecy of his own coming). While this text was never officially adopted by the main LDS church (it was adopted, on the other hand, by the Community of Christ), portions of it appear in the ''Pearl of Great Price'' and as footnotes in the official LDS editions of the King James Version of the Bible (still the official LDS version).

==Mormonism and Polygamy==
Plural marriage was practiced by early Mormon church leaders. Many sources say that Smith had as many as twenty to thirty wives, while Brigham Young counted fifty-two.<ref>D. Michael Quinn, ''The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power'', Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1994, 685 pages, ISBN 1-56085-056-6; Appendix 6, "Biographical Sketches of Officers of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints, 1830-47" pp. 607-608).</ref> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints practiced polygamy until 1890, when they ended it to ensure Utah’s statehood.

Today about 70% of Utah is Mormon, and around 60,000 or so are polygamous, though the mainline LDS Church excommunicates anyone advocating or practicing it. Other breakaway Mormon sects practice polygamy secretly. Despite the huge publicity campaign the LDS Church has constructed to disassociate itself from polygamy, Mormons and plural marriage are still commonly associated in contemporary culture. While it may have been renounced by the main LDS body, there is no doubt that Mormonism and its unholy practice of plural marriage remain closely entwined, especially since mainline LDS members are still required to affirm the propriety of polygamy when it ''was'' authorized by their church (prior to 1890).

The Orthodox Church condemns all forms of plural marriage as an unnatural practice.

==Citations==
<references/>

==Sources and External Links==
*[http://www.lds.org The Official LDS Website]
*[http://www.mormonwiki.com Mormonwiki.com] (A Mormon version of the Wikipedia)
*[[w:Mormonism|Wikipedia: Mormonism]]
*[http://www.cofchrist.org Community of Christ] (Website for the Community of Christ, the second-largest Mormon sect)
*[http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism by Richard Packham] (Packham is a former member of the LDS)
*[http://www.hbo.com/biglove HBO’s Big Love] (Big Love is a television drama portraying Mormon polygamists living secretly in modern-day Utah)

[[Category:Non-Orthodox]]
[[Category:Heresies]]
[[ar:المورمون]]

Mormonism

2009-03-26T20:12:01Z

Iliada: Adding more on how the OC differs from M

'''Mormonism''' is a [[heresy|heretical]] religion founded in 1830 by [[Joseph Smith, Jr.]] Most of its adherents comprise the [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints|Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]] or "LDS" Church, with headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah; its second-largest sect is the [[Community of Christ]], in Independence, Missouri. Total membership for the LDS church as of 2008 is 13,000,000,<ref>"LDS Church says membership now 13 million worldwide", ''Salt Lake Tribune'', June 25, 2007.</ref> with 250,000 in the Community of Christ<ref>http://www.cofchrist.org/news/GeneralInfo.asp. This organization was known as the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" until 2001.</ref> and perhaps 50,000 in several smaller sects.

==Brief History==
Mormonism began on April 6, 1830 in Fayette, New York, as an alleged "restoration" of the original Apostolic Church. Its originator, Joseph Smith, Jr., asserted that he had seen two celestial "personages" in 1820 who claimed to be God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. These "personages" told Smith that all existing churches--including the Orthodox Church--were false, and that he had been chosen to "restore" the one true Church.

Attracting a host of converts, Smith's new religion also garnered intense persecution, necessitating moves in turn to Ohio, Missouri, and finally Illinois, where Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844. Smith's movement fragmented following his demise, with the majority eventually following Brigham Young to Utah.

Plural marriage proved a source of dissension, especially between the Utah Mormons and the smaller Community of Christ, which rejected the doctrine. Polygamy also caused trouble between the LDS church and the U.S. government, until its practice was banned in 1890. Throughout the last century, Mormons fought to project an image of wholesome, family-oriented Christianity, reaping millions of converts and emerging as a formidible presence on the world religous scene.

With the fall of communism, the LDS extended their prosletyzing efforts into traditionally Orthodox countries, including Russia, which passed a law in 1997 designed to hamper their efforts and those of other Western sects.

==Compared To Holy Orthodoxy==
''(This section is concerned with the organization and theology of the Utah LDS church, which contains the majority of the world's Mormons. While the Community of Christ church is similarly organized, its beliefs differ rather sharply from LDS Mormonism in many respects, as do the beliefs and organization of the smaller sects. However, all Latter Day Saint sects remain diametrically opposed to Orthodox Church teaching in most essential regards.)''

Mormonism as a whole encompasses a mélange of many different religious beliefs, the vast majority of which are contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Joseph Smith gleaned inspiration from various religious movements of his time, including [[Campbellism|Campbellite]], [[Restorationism|Restorationist]], and [[Universalism|Universalist]]. However, the foundation of Mormon belief is the acceptance of modern prophecy and revelation, and an "open canon" of [[Scripture|Holy Scripture]].

===Mormon Organization===
While Joseph Smith taught that any person with a testimony of Christ is a [[prophet]], the LDS church remains a hierarchial organization with a President/Prophet, usually assisted by two "Counselors", who alone possesses the "keys" to all prophetic power. Most members of the LDS church believe that their current president, Thomas S. Monson (as of 2008), is the sole person authorized to speak definitively for God on the earth today. Below this "First Presidency" are twelve "Apostles," who are also considered "prophets, seers, and revelators," but who do not exercize the prerogatives held by the president. Beneath these apostles are the "Seventies," concerned with heading up Mormon missionary efforts, together with a "Presiding Bishopric" largely relegated to temporal concerns. These men are referred to as the "General Authorities" of the LDS church.<ref>All Utah LDS priesthood offices are limited to men; the Community of Christ, on the other hand, ordains both men and women (since 1984).</ref>

A local Mormon congregation, called a "ward" (equivalent to an Orthodox parish), is headed by a "bishop" (equivalent to an Orthodox parish priest). A group of wards occupying a specific geographical area is organized into a "stake" (equivalent to an Orthodox diocese), headed by a "stake president" (equivalent to an Orthodox bishop). The disparity between Mormon and Orthodox usage of "bishop" can cause confusion for the uninitiated!

Another source of confusion is the Mormon use of the word "elder." While Orthodox Christians use "elder" to refer to a holy person who has been given a special gift of spiritual insight and direction (but who is not necessarily a priest, or even a male), Mormons use this term to refer to a specific office in the "Melchizedek Priesthood," the higher of their two "priesthoods" (the "lesser" priesthood is referred to as the "Aaronic Priesthood"). "Elder" is the lowest office in this higher priesthood, and is generally held by all male members over the age of eighteen deemed "worthy" of it (the vast majority).

"Patriarch" also has a different usage for Mormons than for Orthodox; instead of referring to the chiefest of Orthodox bishops, this term is used to describe an office in the higher Mormon priesthood mostly concerned with the giving of special "patriarchial blessings" to church members.

Even though they consider themselves Christians, they preach the lie of the devil, where Orthodox Christians curse it. They believe that man had to fall, for man to become God. The Orthodox belief is that we become "like-god," while the Mormon belief is that all people become gods. They believe that all people are spirits before they are born, and when they die, they become gods. Many Mormons have large families with many children, because they believe that every child born is a spirit from the spirit world, one day to become a god. In their temple, they reenact the scene of paradise.

===The "Doctrine of Eternal Progression"===
A major pillar of Mormon belief is their concept of [[theosis|deification]], which they refer to as the "Doctrine of Eternal Progression." In opposition to the Trinitarian dogmas of the [[First Ecumenical Council|First]] and [[Second Ecumenical Council|Second]] [[Ecumenical Council|Ecumenical Councils]], Mormons believe that [[God]] the Father, whom they refer to as "Elohim"<ref>LDS Bible Dictionary, Entry "God," at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/g/43. This doctrine, incidentally, is vehemently rejected by the Community of Christ and most smaller Mormon sects.</ref> or "Heavenly Father," was originally a flesh-and-blood human being, who was spiritually "begotten" by another "god" (and his "godess" wife) and then physically born on another planet (not Earth). "Elohim" lived a normal human life, and by embracing his world's version of Mormonism, he "progressed" to become the "god" he is today.<ref>Numerous quotes from Mormon leaders on this topic, past and present, may be read at http://blog.mrm.org/category/eternal-progression/. See also the ''Mormonwiki'' article on "Eternal progression" at http://www.mormonwiki.org/Eternal_progression.</ref>

Having attained to "godhood," this "Elohim" and his wife were enabled to create and populate their own universe--namely, ours--with spiritual offspring who, by coming to earth and taking on human flesh, embracing and fully living the Mormon religion, and "enduring to the end," could themselves acquire "godhood," where they in turn could begin this process anew. It should be noted that this LDS doctrine of "pre-existence" of spirits, by which we all are alleged to have existed "spiritually" in heaven prior to our birth on this earth, was specifically condemned by the [[Fifth Ecumenical Council]].

For a casual observer, this may seem similar to the Church's teaching of [[theosis]], but this is most emphatically ''not'' so:

:'''First''', there is a definite distinction in the Church between God and mankind, between the Creator and His Creation. God is eternal, and existed for eternity prior to (and entirely separate from) His creation (which, unlike its Creator, is ''not'' eternal), until the incarnation of the pre-eternal Word of God, the Second Person of the [[Holy Trinity|Most Holy Trinity]], as Our Lord [[Jesus Christ]]. This was a unique union between God and His creation, which never existed before. Mormonism, on the other hand, teaches that only matter and intelligence are truly eternal (not God), and that ''all'' of their "gods" essentially "evolved" in the same fashion, from physical matter.
:'''Second''', the Orthodox Church clearly teaches that the Most Holy Trinity has ''always'' existed precisely as one God: "the Trinity, One in Essence, and Undivided." Mormonism, on the other hand, teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in "purpose" only, and most emphatically ''not'' one in essence or hypostasis (as the Orthodox Church teaches). They are three "gods," say the Mormons, and not "one" in anything except a common purpose and mindset. Furthermore, say they, there are potentially billions of "gods" beyond the three they acknowledge as belonging to this world. All of this is diametrically opposed to Orthodox Christian teaching.
:'''Third''', Theosis is a unification between God and mankind, not the creation of an entirely separate deity (or dieties).

Mormonism's designation by Orthodoxy as being "[[heretic|heretical]]"--instead of "[[heterodox]]," as is the case with the Roman Catholic and most major Protestant faiths--stems primarily from their spurious doctrines on the Holy Trinity and the nature of God, together with various other specious beliefs.

Mormons have a very difficult time understanding why Orthodox and other Christians deny that they are Christian. The simplest answer to this question is that the Mormon god is simply ''not'' God--at least not the God worshipped by Orthodox Christians (and other Trinitarians). This does not mean that the Mormons are necessarily immoral or wicked people, simply that they worship a god completely dissimilar from the Christian Trinity.

===Attaining to "Godhood"===
While Mormonism claims to focus on salvation through the atonement of Jesus Christ, their concept of ''exaltation'' goes far beyond this. All of mankind, say the Mormons, will be saved from death through the [[resurrection]] of Christ; but it is only those whom God judges as obedient and faithful, and who receive specific saving ordinances (which will be offered to every person that has ever lived), who will be exalted to the highest of the three "degrees of glory" which comprise the Mormon heaven. Only those exalted to this "Celestial glory" will become "gods." Those in the lower two degrees,<ref>These are referred to as "Terrestrial" and "Telestial," respectively, in LDS ''Doctrine & Covenants'' Section 76.</ref> while enjoying a blessed and happy state, will still be limited in their "progression" and will never have the chance to move to a higher existence.

To attain to "Celestial glory," one must be baptized as a Mormon by "true authority" (meaning a regularly-ordained member of their church), "confirmed" by the same, and receive certain "sacred" or "higher" ordinances that can only be had within a Mormon temple. While Orthodox Christians often tend to use the term "temple" to refer to any Orthodox Church building, Mormons use it only for specific structures specially dedicated as such.<ref>The regular Mormon meetinghouses are generally called "chapels" or "stake centers," and unlike their temples, are generally open to the public.</ref>

Within these structures, Mormons practice (for themselves, or on behalf of others) certain esoteric rituals:
:'''Baptism for the Dead''', where living proxies act on behalf of deceased persons who are then "baptized" into the LDS church; names are obtained from geneological research, for which the Mormons are world-famous. This practice was rejected by the Council of Hippo and the Third Council of Carthage, and St. [[John Chrysostom]] associated it with the heretical [[Marcionism|Marcionites]]. St. [[Clement of Alexandria]] indicated that Baptism for the Dead was a doctrine also particular to the [[Gnostics]].
:'''The so-called "Endowment'''," where initiates are taught the "fullness" of Mormon doctrine on such subjects as the "plurality of Gods," the Mormon version of creation, and the process by which one may "progress to godhood." Additionally, participants take a solemn oath never to reveal anything that goes on in the temple, as well as oaths to faithfully abide by all Mormon teachings. This ritual is essentially a "contract" between the Mormon "god" and his adherents, by which they promise to obey his laws and earthly leadership, and he in turn promises to advance them to "godhood" upon their resurrection. Many elements of this rite were stolen from the heretical [[Freemasonry|Freemasons]], and Joseph Smith (who had been a Master Mason himself) was expelled from that fraternity as a result.
:'''Marriage for Eternity''', where participants, upon receiving their "Endowment," are married "for time and all eternity." This is seen as an indespensible requirement for "godhood."<ref>LDS ''Doctrine & Covenants'', Section 131. See http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/131.</ref> The Orthodox Church has traditionally rejected this concept.

The Mormon hell, by the way, is limited to those few who have apostasized from the Mormon religion, broken their oath of secrecy about the Temple rituals, committed murder after becoming a Mormon, or are guilty of other very serious offenses--together with the devil and his fallen angels.

===Alleged "brotherhood" of Christ and Satan===
In the ''Pearl of Great Price'', "Book of Moses" 4:1-4 and "Book of Abraham" 3:27, Mormonism's god explains that in the "preexistence," he asked for a volunteer to serve as the savior of humankind. Two of his "spirit-sons," Jesus and Lucifer, obliged. Lucifer wanted to compel all humans to follow God, while Jesus insisted on the right of each person to choose for themselves. When "Elohim" chose Jesus over Lucifer, say the Mormons, Lucifer rebelled and was cast out of heaven with his followers. They were deprived of all chance to receive a fleshly body, and thus barred from any chance at "godhood."

The June 1986 ''Ensign'', official magazine of the LDS Church, affirmed the teaching that Christ and Satan are, indeed, "spirit brothers"--albeit diametrically opposed "brothers."<ref>Read the entire article at http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=4a10ef960417b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1.</ref>

All of these teachings, needless to say, are emphatically rejected by the Orthodox Church.

===The Mormon Concept of Angels===
In contrast to Orthodoxy, which views angels (whether righteous or fallen) as a separate class of beings created by God prior to--and separate from--humanity, Mormonism sees angels as being either pre-existent spirits of human beings not yet physically born, or the spirits of departed "righteous" men, such as characters from the Bible and the ''Book of Mormon.'' "Moroni," the alleged "angel" who showed the golden plates of the ''Book of Mormon'' to Joseph Smith (see below), was supposed to have been an ancient American prophet who figures prominently in the final portions of that book.

While the Orthodox Church traditionally admonishes her children to mistrust ''any'' spiritual manifestations they might see (even the saints have sometimes been deceived by demons, such as St. [[Nikita the Venerable]] of Novgorod, for instance!), Joseph Smith offered his followers a novel test by which he claimed to be able to discern true angels of God from demons. This task, which involved asking to shake the "angel's" hand (Smith said one would not feel the "angel's" hand, if it were a demon), may be found in LDS ''Doctrine and Covenants'' Section 129.<ref>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Doctrine_and_Covenants/Section_129</ref> However, the life of St. [[Martin of Tours]] illustrates that the demons are quite capable of affecting human sensory perceptions--including the human sense of touch--contrary to Joseph Smith's assertion.<ref>See St. Martin's story at http://celticchristianity.org/COCQ/COCM200111.html, or in Chapter Five of Rose, Fr. Seraphim, ''Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future'', St. Herman of Alaska Press, 1980.</ref>

==="The Great [[Apostasy]]" and Apostolic Succession===
Like many Restorationist heresies, Mormons believe that the [[Orthodox Church|Church]] entered an age of opprobrium several years after its founding.<ref>Mormons tend to follow the Western error that posits Roman Catholicism, rather than Eastern Orthodoxy, as the most ancient of contemporary Christian faiths. Many are suprised to learn that Orthodoxy even exists! However, learning of Orthodoxy's existence and claims does not alter their beliefs in the slightest.</ref> In doing so, say they, it lost all right to perform sacraments, consecrate priests, or otherwise act in God's name. And from that moment until 1830, say the Mormons, there was no true Church anywhere on the earth. While Mormons offer no specific date for this alleged catastrophe, they tend to believe that it had occurred by the era of St. [[Constantine the Great]] and the [[First Ecumenical Council]] in A.D. 325. The Orthodox Church, which traces her unbroken succession to the Apostles themselves and alone teaches the fullness of their doctrine, is ''ergo'' in apostasy (with all other non-LDS churches) according to the Mormons.

Mormons point to New Testament scriptures<ref>I Timothy 4:1, II Timothy 3:1-5, Acts 20:28-31, among others.</ref> that they assert as speaking of a complete apostasy of the entire Church, as proof of their claims. While Orthodox Christians would agree that these passages did indeed speak of apostates to come--such as [[Arius]], [[Nestorius]] and [[Paul of Samosata]], for instance--they emphatically reject the Mormon interpretation (advanced to varying degrees by nearly all Protestants) that the entire Apostolic Church would fall into heresy. In St. Matthew 16:18, our Lord clearly states that the "gates of hell shall not prevail" against the Church He had founded--a Church which the Mormons agree existed, but which they claim to have been subsequently "lost", in violation of our Lord's words.

Mormons believe ardently in the necessity of Apostolic Succession, which they refer to as "Priesthood succession" or "Priesthood lineage." However, since they recognize no valid church between the alleged "Great Apostasy" and the establishment of their own in 1830, they trace ''their'' succession to one of four "exalted beings,"<ref>The Mormons claim these beings to have been St. John the Baptist, and the Holy Apostles SS Peter, James and John.</ref> who purportedly visited Joseph Smith on two separate occasions in the 1820's, just prior to their church's founding.

===Gethsamene and Golgotha===
Utah Mormons generally reject all usage of the Holy [[Cross]] as a Christian symbol. The Mormon church teaches that the atonement of Christ took place, not primarily on the Cross, but rather in the Garden of Gethsamene the night before His crucifixion. The LDS Bible Dictionary entry for "Atonement" speaks of the shedding of Our Lord's blood as having taken place ''there''; His subsequent death on the Cross the following day is relegated to a seemingly secondary place. There is no entry for "Cross" in the LDS Bible Dictionary, and its cursory article on "crucifixion" makes no mention whatsoever of this salvific event having any role in His Atonement. The ''Mormonwiki'' article on "Atonement of Jesus Christ" contains a section entitled "Gethsamene and Golgotha," which emphasizes the time our Lord spent in the Garden of Gethsamene, alleging that it was ''here'' that the genuine "shedding of blood" took place to effect our salvation.

Many Mormon leaders have denounced the wearing or display of the Cross by Mormons. Some of their statements are contained in an essay entitled "Why Are There No Crosses on Mormon Churches and Temples?"<ref>http://members.tripod.com/~Aarius/nocross.htm.</ref>

On the other hand, the late Fr. Michael Pomazansky, author of ''Orthodox Dogmatic Theology'', shows the Orthodox teaching on the Cross as both the ''path'', ''power'' and ''banner'' of the Church. In his essay "The Cross of Christ" (printed in this same book), he gives the Orthodox teaching on the vital importance of our Lord's Cross as the indispensible weapon, not merely in the general victory against Satan and his angels won at Calvary, but equally in our own individual struggles for salvation.<ref>Pomazansky, Protopresbyter Michael, ''Orthodox Dogmatic Theology: A Concise Exposition''; St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1997, pp. 326-30.</ref>

===Original Sin and Infant Baptism===
Similar to the ancient heresy of [[Pelagianism|Pelagius]], Mormons teach that all human beings are born completely innocent; and they further assert that children are incapable of sin until they reach the age of eight years.<ref>See http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c2fb94859a4bb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1.</ref> The second Mormon "Article of Faith" (contained in the ''Pearl of Great Price'') teaches: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."<ref>http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1.</ref> Accordingly, infant baptism is vehemently rejected by the Mormon church.

In contrast, Orthodoxy teaches (unlike Roman Catholics and most Protestants) that while only [[Adam]] and [[Eve]] bear the ''guilt'' for their sin in the [[Garden of Eden]], they transmitted the ''consequences'' of that sin to their progeny. St. [[Anastasius the Sinaite]] wrote: "We became the inheritors of the curse in Adam. We were not punished as if we had disobeyed that divine commandment along with Adam; but because Adam became mortal, he transmitted sin to his posterity. We became mortal since we were born from a mortal."<ref>St. Anastasius the Sinaite, 19. Vide I.N. Karmirh, SUNOYIS THS DOGMATKHS THS ORQODOXOU EKKLHSIAS, s. 38. Quoted from Kalomiros, Dr. Alexandre, ''The River of Fire'', ch. IV, found at http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm.</ref> Thus, in keeping with Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, the Orthodox Church baptizes infants by triple immersion (as she does with adult converts, as well)--not to cleanse them of "[[original sin]]," but rather to give them the grace this holy [[sacrament]] imparts, together with access to the [[Eucharist|Holy Eucharist]] and all of the other means of grace she offers.<ref>Pomazansky, pp. 268-69.</ref>

===Miracles and Martyrs===
Mormons assert that one proof of their claims is the miracles claimed by members of their sect--and the comparative absence of these in other Christian denominations. This was emphasized during the early years of Mormonism, where their assertions of the "restoration" of the "gifts of the Spirit" contrasted sharply with Campbellite and other Protestants' assertions that such miracles had entirely ceased among Christians. Mormons insist that this cessation of such "gifts" comprises proof of their alleged "Great Apostasy" of the entire Church (see above).

Orthodoxy, however, offers an unbroken twenty-century history of [[wonderworker|wonderworkers]], miracles and gifts far surpassing anything the Mormons can adduce. The twentieth century alone saw SS [[Nectarios of Aegina]], [[John Maximovitch]] of San Francisco and [[John of Kronstadt]], among others; each preceding century offers additional proof that the true "gifts of the Holy Spirit" ''never'' ceased in the one, true (Orthodox) Church of Christ.

Mormonism believes in the concept of [[martyr|martyrdom]], offering various persons who have been murdered for professing the LDS religion since its inception. While it does not pray to these people, as Orthodox do to their martyrs and [[saint|saints]], it does venerate their memory and uphold them as examples to other Mormons. The LDS church offers its founder, Joseph Smith, Jr., as its chief "martyr," as he was murdered by an anti-Mormon mob in Carthage, Illinois, on June 27, 1844. However, whereas a martyr has always been understood by Orthodox Christians as one who dies voluntarily for the Faith without resisting his persecutors in any way (and indeed, while praying for and forgiving them), Joseph Smith did not die in this fashion. Rather, Smith used a six-shot pistol against his attackers, wounding three of them before being killed himself.<ref>''History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'', Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103.</ref>

While the murder of Smith was indeed a deplorable and henious act, it cannot be described as true "martyrdom" by Orthodox standards--not only because of Smith's resistance to his killers, but equally because he died for a false religion. "The martyrdom of heretics is suicide," say the Holy Fathers.<ref>http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/i_believe.aspx.</ref>

In contrast, Orthodoxy offers numerous genuine martyrs throughout her 2,000 year history, including nearly twenty-million who died during the twentieth century under Communist persecution. This list extends from the Holy Apostles themselves and their immediate disciples, right up to the present day. Fr. [[Alexander Men]], for instance, was martyred in Semkhoz, Russia in 1990, and Priestmonk [[Nestor (Savchuk)|Nestor Savchuk]] of Zharky, Russia was martyred there in 1993. Other Orthodox Christians have been martyred in the Serbian provice of Kosovo, within the past decade.<ref>http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/SerbianMartyrsOfthe20thCentury.htm.</ref><ref>http://www.kosovo.net/default2.html.</ref>

==Distinctive Mormon "Scriptures"==
===The Book of Mormon===
In 1823 Smith claimed to have been visited by an [[angel]] named Moroni, who told him of a chronicle of ancient history supposedly engraved in "Reformed Egyptian" on tablets of gold, and buried in a hill near Manchester, New York. Smith allegedly obtained these plates in 1827 and translated them into English via the use of two seer-stones which he called the "Urim and Thummim." These stones should not be confused with the [[Old Testament]] Urim and Thummim (the stones on the High Priest’s breastplate used to relay messages from God to the Israelites), though Mormons sometimes try to connect the two.

This translation became ''The Book of Mormon'', which is revered as "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" by Mormons. The monikers referring to Smith's church as "the Mormon Church" and its members as "Mormons" are derivations from''The Book of Mormon.'' This book purports to be a religious and secular history of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas--called Nephites, Lamanites, Mulekites, and Jaredites--from about 2200 B.C. to A.D. 421. It claims that at least some Native Americans are descended from groups of Near Eastern peoples (mostly [[Judaism|Jews]]) who immigrated during pivotal periods in Israel’s history.

The ''Book of Mormon'' claims that many of these people were openly-practicing [[Christian|Christians]], ''before'' the birth of Christ, with a functioning church organization that mirrored that later taught by Joseph Smith. According to Smith's text, the godly "Nephites" openly administered baptisms, "confirmations" and the Holy Eucharist eons ''before'' the coming of the Savior. The book even claims that our Lord came to visit these peoples Himself after His [[Ascension]]--after raining down several days of death and destruction on the evildoers among them. About four-hundred years after this alleged event, the "Nephites" were destroyed by the wicked "Lamanites," who became the primary ancestors of the Native American peoples.

Interestingly, over 3,000 changes have been noted between the ''Book of Mormon'' currently published by the LDS Church, and the original 1830 edition published by Joseph Smith. Most of these alterations were made by Smith himself, in later editions of the book printed during his own lifetime. For instance, in I Nephi 11:32, our Lord was originally referred to as "the eternal God," but is now referred to as "the ''son'' of the eternal God." In I Nephi 11:18, the [[Theotokos]] was initially referred to as "the mother of God," while today she is referred to as "the mother of the ''Son'' of God."<ref>http://www.geocities.com/swickersc/mormonbkchange.html.</ref>

Connections between the history and civilization portrayed in ''The Book of Mormon'' and evidence found by archaeologists in the Americas is debatable. Evidence of horses, elephants, cattle, barley, wheat, steel swords, chariots, shipbuilding, and other Old World paraphernalia has not been found to exist in the Americas until the advent of Europeans. Evidence of these people, the gold plates, or the "seer-stones" has yet to be found.<ref>See, for instance, the Smithsonian Institute's offical statement on the ''Book of Mormon'', at http://www.irr.org/mit/smithson.html.</ref>

===Other Mormon "Scriptures"===
Mormons also accept as Scripture the ''Doctrine and Covenants'', containing 138 "revelations" and two "official declarations" allegedly given to Joseph Smith and his successors; together with the ''Pearl of Great Price'', containing the "Book of Moses" (a rewriting by Joseph Smith of the first part of the Book of Genesis), the "Book of Abraham" (a purported account of the Patriarch [[Abraham]], with references to multiple "gods" in the act of creation, rather than one God), and various other texts by Smith.

Additionally, Joseph Smith rewrote the entire Bible "by inspiration" during his lifetime, making substantial additions to the text, deleting the Song of Solomon entirely, and otherwise shaping its text to conform to his own teachings (including an alleged prophecy of his own coming). While this text was never officially adopted by the main LDS church (it was adopted, on the other hand, by the Community of Christ), portions of it appear in the ''Pearl of Great Price'' and as footnotes in the official LDS editions of the King James Version of the Bible (still the official LDS version).

==Mormonism and Polygamy==
Plural marriage was practiced by early Mormon church leaders. Many sources say that Smith had as many as twenty to thirty wives, while Brigham Young counted fifty-two.<ref>D. Michael Quinn, ''The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power'', Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1994, 685 pages, ISBN 1-56085-056-6; Appendix 6, "Biographical Sketches of Officers of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints, 1830-47" pp. 607-608).</ref> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints practiced polygamy until 1890, when they ended it to ensure Utah’s statehood.

Today about 70% of Utah is Mormon, and around 60,000 or so are polygamous, though the mainline LDS Church excommunicates anyone advocating or practicing it. Other breakaway Mormon sects practice polygamy secretly. Despite the huge publicity campaign the LDS Church has constructed to disassociate itself from polygamy, Mormons and plural marriage are still commonly associated in contemporary culture. While it may have been renounced by the main LDS body, there is no doubt that Mormonism and its unholy practice of plural marriage remain closely entwined, especially since mainline LDS members are still required to affirm the propriety of polygamy when it ''was'' authorized by their church (prior to 1890).

The Orthodox Church condemns all forms of plural marriage as an unnatural practice.

==Citations==
<references/>

==Sources and External Links==
*[http://www.lds.org The Official LDS Website]
*[http://www.mormonwiki.com Mormonwiki.com] (A Mormon version of the Wikipedia)
*[[w:Mormonism|Wikipedia: Mormonism]]
*[http://www.cofchrist.org Community of Christ] (Website for the Community of Christ, the second-largest Mormon sect)
*[http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism by Richard Packham] (Packham is a former member of the LDS)
*[http://www.hbo.com/biglove HBO’s Big Love] (Big Love is a television drama portraying Mormon polygamists living secretly in modern-day Utah)

[[Category:Non-Orthodox]]
[[Category:Heresies]]
[[ar:المورمون]]

Talk:John the Forerunner

2009-03-21T01:05:43Z

Iliada: Adding talk page

== John the Forerunner ==
Hello, I have a question regarding the St. John the Forerunner page. It says something along the lines of, John the Baptist, also known as John the Forerunner... I was wondering if the two names should be switched, since John the Baptist is a more western term? --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 01:05, March 21, 2009 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

2009-03-20T00:24:29Z

Iliada: Suggesting

In a monastery, a '''[[refectory|trapeza]]''' (or ''refectory''), is the dining hall where monks and pilgrims gather for food and conversation (although monks don't usually talk during meals). The OrthodoxWiki trapeza serves as the main discussion point for our website. Please feel free to join in—ask anything, suggest an idea, make a comment. We're glad to have you here. For other, more specifically designated discussion pages, check out the [[OrthodoxWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]]. [[Category:OrthodoxWiki]] [[bg:Project:Трапеза]] [[el:OrthodoxWiki:Τράπεζα]] [[fr:OrthodoxWiki:La Cafétéria]] [[mk:Православна-енциклопедија:Трпеза]] [[ro:OrthodoxWiki:Cafenea]]

* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 1|Archive 1]], Feb 2005 – Dec 2005 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Anything_Goes&oldid=22917 Anything Goes] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 2|Archive 2]], Feb 2005 – Aug 2006 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Questions&oldid=37973 Questions] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 3|Archive 3]], Oct 2005 – Aug 2006 (moved from [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=37962 Talk:Main Page])
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 4|Archive 4]], Aug 2006 – Dec 2006 (2006 Trapeza archive)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 5|Archive 5]], through November 2008

<center>
Please sign and date your comments by adding four tildes at the end: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>
{| style="border: solid 1px #aaaaaa"
|'''[http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza&action=edit&section=new Add new post]'''
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== Closing down OrthodoxSource and SR ==
Friends, I apologize for being absent for awhile. Please let me know if you have any outstanding wiki issues you need to resolve! 
As of today, I am shutting down OrthodoxSource. Apologies to IXThis888, who has put in a good deal of work. However, there was not enough of a community of contibutors and moderators there, and I think it would be better for us all at this point to keep the focus on this wiki. Also, I will likely be shutting down SR soon. There has been no activity there for a long time, and I'm afraid that the required documents (about copyrights and policies) were never translated. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 12:45, November 25, 2008 (UTC)

== questions ==
hi, i have photos of the raifa monastary i would like to upload as well as a convent neasr yoshkar ola russia which i do not beleive yet has an article how would i create a new article for this? {{unsigned|Kharaku}}
:Hello, on the left hand side of your screen ... scroll down until you see the words
"upload file" .. then follow the steps ...its not too hard and always someone will help you categorise your work ... Good luck! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:16, November 29, 2008 (UTC)

== Adding a Photo.... ==

I have been wanting to post my photo, but do not know HTML.
Could someone please give me a tip on how to do this?

Thanks! {{unsigned|Jacifus}}

: Give a thorough read to the materials linked in the welcome message on your talk page. There's plenty there that should help. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 23:56, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

==Seminarian input==
Over at Citizendium, there is a programme whereby faculty at various universities enjoin their students to post their work. I was wondering if it would make sense here to start publishing seminarians' papers. They come with faculty oversight and would be of sufficient quality to support reliability here. [[User:Thomas Simmons|Thomas Simmons]] 09:28, December 19, 2008 (PST)

:There is also a Wiki Site called "Patristic Wiki" that you should look at. Father John set it up recently (mid-November I think) and they are asking for people to contribute in regards to patristic related stuff .... 22:47, December 18, 2008 (UTC)

:: 1. This is not really a place for papers, but for encyclopedia articles. If seminarians wish to write Orthodox encyclopedia articles here, they are welcome to do so.

:: 2. PatristicsWiki is not connected with OrthodoxWiki and, as far as I know, not set up by (our) Fr. John. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 01:54, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:::Hi, I know that PatristicWiki is not linked with OrthodoxWiki but I mentioned it since I presume that everyone's core intention is to spread Orthodoxy in the way they know how ... who you are affiliated with wrt posting information publically is irrelevant as long as the end users are connected to God and the Truth. I had the impression (our) Father John was involved with it ... since, he monitors the emails for the Ancient Faith podcast that Dcn Matthew has been delivering - and he is from Monachos.net So doh! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:03, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

== ROK's Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights ==
I learnt recently the Russian Church adopted a [http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?mid=463 Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights]. Metropolitan Kyrill held a [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=65 speech] at a conference in Vienna in 2006 where he said this teaching is meaningful to all christans and at the UN Human Rights Council he [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=121 said] in 2008 adoption of human rights is unsuccessful because it fades out moral. I believe this is important. Would there be interest to have an article on this topic?{{unsigned|Haiduk}}

:Perhaps you should make it a "sub-topic" under the [[Church of Russia]] since it is specific to their jurisdiction? I will give it a shot first if you want and then you can come in and edit??? Remember to sign your posts with three tilde (~) signs. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:45, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:: I'm glad with just doing a revision. I agree adding it to [[Church of Russia]] would be adequate. It's up to you to follow Fr. Andrew advice or convince him, if that is possible [[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]]
::Honestly now, with no mucking around and with respect to Father Andrew its not MY job to convince and neither do I want to convince him since I trust what he is telling me :) However, if you wish to ..since it is your own idea ...go ahead. I merely was trying to be helpful but if its not appropriate for an article I can only just go with the guy who holds the petraxili .... :) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, my salvation is not dependent on having such an article at OrthodoxWiki. I just wanted to ensure information about this declaration finds it's way into this community. I guess (since it is not easy to write a reasonable article on this subject) it might be better to forward it to english language blogs or forums such as monachos.net. --[[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]] 16:34, December 20, 2008 (UTC)

: That's interesting, but it's really more fit for a newspaper than an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:27, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

==Orthodoxy in Italy==
I think it is completely inapropriate to use the title [[Orthodox Church in Italy]] for a non official orthodox church, that exists only 17 years, when in Italy orthodoxy has a history for many centuries. As far as I can see there is an article referred to [[Gennadios (Zervos) of Italy and Malta]] (the primate of the '''diocese of Italy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate'''), but there isn't an article for his archdiocese "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy". Also in the english and italian wikipedia the problem is the same. It seems as if the users who created the "Orthodox Church in Italy" articles were really quickly to catch the title! But it should remain like this? I think no. And it is, in my point of view completely unacceptable if that happens also in the "Orthodoxwiki".--[[User:Sp!ros|Sp!ros]] 21:27, December 29, 2008 (UTC)

: Generally, we use whatever titles such groups give themselves, noting within the article that they are not in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy, etc.

: In any event, I have removed the redirect and changed all the links to [[Chiesa Ortodossa in Italia]].

: You would be most welcome to provide the articles that you suggest are needed. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 20:58, December 31, 2008 (UTC)

== Archbishop Nikitas (Lulias) Cekal Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro ==

Pada Februari 2007 lalu, Metropolitan Orthodox Hongkong dan Asia Tenggara, '''His Eminence Nikitas Lulias''' mengeluarkan keputusan pencekalan (pembebas-tugas-an) terhadap '''Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro''', yang artinya Archimandrit Daniel Bambang tidak diperkenankan lagi (''suspended'') untuk berbicara, melakukan tugas penggembalaan jemaat atas nama gereja. Meskipun archimandrit Daniel mengklaim dirinya menjadi bagian dari satu gereja tertentu, tapi yang bersangkutan tidak lagi menerima putusan/ ketetapan (''Canonical Release'')dari Gereja sebagaimana disyaratkan. Hal ini atas sepengetahuan '''Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.''' {{unsigned|Maruli}}

: I'm honestly not sure what language this is, but unless you post here in English, you're not likely to get too many responses. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 18:46, January 4, 2009 (UTC)

::It's Indonesian. Here's an English rendering (thanks to the ever-improving Google Translate) -- "In February 2007, the Orthodox Metropolitan Hong Kong and Southeast Asia, His Eminence Nikitas Lulias-ban issue a decision (liberator-task-an) of Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro, which means Archimandrit Daniel Bambang not be more (suspended) to speak, doing penggembalaan of the church in the name of the church. Although Daniel archimandrit claimed himself to be part of a particular church, but they no longer receive the decision / provisions (Canonical Release) from the Church, as required. This top sepengetahuan Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople." — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 02:05, January 5, 2009 (UTC)

== Churches in Melbourne ==

I plan on uploading around one hundred photographs of churches in Melbourne to [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Orthodox_churches_in_Australia Wikimedia commons] over the next few days. You are free to reuse them; all my work is released into the public domain. Hope to have done all of the Orthodox churches within a few months. [[User:Ottre|Ottre]] 11:55, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

== log in ==

why does no one ever log on and really have discussion on other pages? {{unsigned|Rob}}

: I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. Could you explain a little more? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:14, March 9, 2009 (UTC)

== The Cemetery Chapel at Saint Anna's Skete? ==

I'm trying to remember the name of the cemetery chapel at Saint Anna's Skete on the Holy Mountain, the chapel where pilgrims generally worship on weekdays. Does anyone recall which saint the chapel venerates?

Father Andrew, is there a more likely page on this site where I might solicit a response?

Thanks,
Isaak

== John the Forerunner? ==
Hello, I have a question regarding the St. John the Forerunner page. It says something along the lines of, John the Baptist, also known as John the Forerunner... I was wondering if the two names should be switched, since John the Baptist is a more western term? --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:24, March 20, 2009 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki talk:About

2009-03-18T17:47:57Z

Iliada: Suggesting

Still planning to fill out some of these sections. Anyone else want to give it a go?
Try [[w:What_Wikipedia_is_not]] to get your creative juices flowing. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] 22:21, November 23, 2005 (CST)

pls add el. interwiki <nowiki>[[el:OrthodoxWiki:Περί του Εγχειρήματος]]</nowiki> --[[User:Kalogeropoulos|Kalogeropoulos]] 05:52, May 26, 2007 (PDT)

:Done! Wonderful, thanks. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

== Others? ==
Should we add that we should not bask or make fun of other religions? --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 17:47, March 18, 2009 (UTC)

Nikolai Velimirovic

2009-03-18T14:19:10Z

Iliada: Adding link

[[Image:StNikolaiVelimirovich.jpg|thumb|right|St. Nikolai Velimirovich (1880-1956)]]
{{orthodoxyinamerica}}
Our father among the saints, [[Bishop]] '''Nikolaj Velimirović''' (Николај Велимировић, [[January 5]], 1880 - [[March 18]], 1956, also rendered ''Nicholas'') was bishop of Žiča in Serbia and the author of several Orthodox books. His most widely-known work is the ''[[Prologue from Ohrid]]''. His first name is pronounced and sometimes written ''Nikolai''.

==Life==
Nikolaj Velimirović was born in the small village of Lelich in Western Serbia. He attended the Seminary of St. Sava in Belgrade and graduated in 1905. He obtained doctorates from the University of Berne (1908), while the thesis was published in German in 1910, whereas the doctor's degree in philosophy was prepared at Oxford and defended in Geneva (''Filosofija Berklija'' - ''Berkeley's Philosophy'', in French) in 1909. At the end of 1909 he entered a monastic order. In 1919, then [[Archimandrite]] Nikolai was consecrated Bishop of Žiča in the [[Church of Serbia]].

In April 1915 (during WWI) he was delegated to England and America by the Serbian Church, where he held numerous lectures, fighting for the unison of the Serbs and South Slavic peoples. At the beginning of 1919 he returned to Serbia, and in 1920 was posted to the Ohrid archbishopric in Macedonia, where in 1935, in Bitola he reconstructed the cemetery of the killed German soldiers.

During the Second World War in 1941 Bp. Nikolai was arrested by the Nazis in the [[Monastery]] of Žiča (which was soon afterwards robbed and ruined), after which he was confined in the Monastery of Ljubostinja (where, on the occasion of mass deaths by firing squad, he reacted saying: "Is this the German culture, to shoot hundred innocent Serbs, for one dead German soldier! The Turks have always proved to be more just..."). Later, this "new [[John Chrysostom|Chrysostom]]" was transferred to the Monastery of Vojlovica (near Pančevo) in which he was confined together with the Serbian patriarch, [[Gabriel (Dozic) of Serbia|Gavrilo (Dožić)]] until the end of 1944.

On [[December 14]], 1944 he was sent to [Dachau], together with Serbian [[Patriarch]] Gavrilo, where some sources, especially the standard Church references, record that he suffered both imprisonment and torture.[http://www.serfes.org/lives/holyhierarchsaintnicholai.htm]

After the War he left Communist Yugoslavia and immigrated as a refugee to the United States in 1946 where he taught at several Orthodox Christian [[seminary|seminaries]] such as [[St. Sava's Serbian Orthodox Seminary (Libertyville, Illinois)|St. Sava's Serbian Orthodox Seminary]] in Libertyville, Illinois and [[St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary (South Canaan, Pennsylvania)|St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary]] and Monastery in South Canaan, Pennsylvania (where he was [[rector]] and also where he died) and [[St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary (Crestwood, New York)|St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary]] now in Crestwood, New York. He died on [[March 18]], 1956.

==Alleged Anti-Semitism==
Although recently [[Glorification|glorified]] as a saint by the [[Church of Serbia]], his writings remain highly controversial. Nikolaj Velimirovic was allegedly anti-semitic and he is supposed to have approved of the holocaust. (See Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic: ''Addresses to the Serbian People—Through the Prison Window''. Himmelsthur, Germany: Serbian Orthodox Eparchy for Western Europe, 1985, pp. 161-162).

Others regard his address from Dachau as having been under duress[http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosta/pisma/l-serbs.are.new.jews.html][http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosta/pisma/l-a.little.more.truth.html] and point to the lack of other anti-semitic statements in the rest of his large corpus of writings. He is recorded variously to have said that the Jews "crucified [[Christ]]," but such a statement is historically no different from that in the [[Bible]] or what [[Christians]] have been saying for centuries.

==[[Glorification]]==
On [[May 19]], 2003, the Holy Assembly of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church, with one heart and one voice, unanimously decided to enter Bishop Nicholai (Velimirovic) of Ohrid and Ziča into the calendar of saints of our Holy Orthodox Church.

St. Nikolai Velimirovich is often referred to as Serbia's New Chrysostom. St. [[John Maximovitch]], who had been a young instructor at a seminary in Bishop Nikolai's diocese of Ohrid, called him "a great saint and Chrysostom of our day [whose] significance for Orthodoxy in our time can be compared only with that of Metropolitan Anthony [Khrapovitsky]. ... They were both universal teachers of the Orthodox Church."

{{start box}}
{{succession|
before=Sava (Barać)|
title=Bishop of Žiča|
years=1919-1920|
after=Jefrem (Bojović)}}
{{succession|
before=Chrysostom (Kavourides), Metropolitan of Pelagonia|
title=Bishop of Ohrid|
years=1920-1929|
after=[[Platon of Banja Luka|St. Platon]]}}
{{succession|
before=Jefrem (Bojović)|
title=Bishop of Žiča|
years=1937-1956|
after=[[German of Serbia|German]]}}

{{end box}}

==Hymns==
[[Troparion]] (Tone 8)

:O golden-tongued preacher proclaiming the risen Christ,
:Everlasting guide of the cross-bearing Serbian people,
:Resounding harp of the Holy Spirit, and dear to monastics who rejoice in you,
:Pride and boast of the priesthood, teacher of repentance, master for all nations,
:Guide of those in the army of Christ as they pray to God,
:Holy Nicholas teacher in America and pride of the Serbian people,
:With all the saints, implore the only Lover of mankind
:To grant us peace and joy in his heavenly kingdom!

[[Kontakion]] (Tone 3)

:Born at Lelich in Serbia,
:You served as archpastor at the church of Saint Nahum in Ochrid.
:Taking your place on the throne of Saint Sabbas at Zhicha,
:You taught God's people and enlightened them with the Gospel.
:You brought people to repentance and the love of Christ,
:And for Christ you endured suffering at Dachau.
:Therefore we glorify you, a new Nicholas well–pleasing to God.

==Works==
===Books===
*''Beyond Sin and Death'' (1914)
*''The Spiritual Rebirth of Europe'' (1917)
*''Orations on the Universal Man'' (1920)
*''Thoughts on Good and Evil'' (1923)
*''Homilias, volumes I and II'' (1925)
*''[[Prologue from Ohrid]]'' (1926)
*''The Faith of Educated People'' (1928)
*''The War and the Bible'' (1931)
*''The Symbols and Signs'' (1932)
*''"Immanuel"'' (1937)
*''The Religion of Njegos''
*''Speeches under the Mount''
*''The Faith of the Saints'' (1949) (an Orthodox [[Catechism]] in English)
*''Cassiana - the Science on Love'' (1952)
*''The Only Love of Mankind'' (1958)
*''The First Gods Law and the Pyramid of Paradise'' (1959)
*''The Life of St. Sava''. St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1989. ISBN 0881410659

===Articles===
*"[http://s3.amazonaws.com/orthodox/WhyVigilLampsLitBeforeIcons.pdf Why are Vigil Lamps lit before Icons?]" (PDF)
* [http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/VelimirovichBlessEnemies.shtml Quotation: Bless My Enemies O Lord -- by Bp. Nikolai Velimirovich]

==External links==
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Velimirovic Wikipedia on Nikolai Velimirovic]
*[http://manybooks.net/authors/velimirovicn.html Works online] (''The New Ideal in Education'' and ''The Religious Spirit of the Slavs (1916)'')
*[http://www.roca.org/oa/158/158f.htm A detailed biography]
*[http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Holy_Fathers/St._Nikolai_Velimirovich/index.shtml#_ftn3 The New Chrysostom, Bishop of Ochrid and Zhicha]
* [http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stnikolai.aspx Life of St. Nikolai Velimirovich, The New Chrysostom, Bishop of Ochrid and Zhicha -- OrthodoxInfo.com])
*[http://www.gutenberg.org/author/Nikolai_Velimirovic Works by Nikolai Velimirovic] from Project Gutenberg
*[http://www.rferl.org/reports/eepreport/2004/02/4-180204.asp East European Perspectives, Article by J. Byford]
* Life of Bishop Nicholai (Velimirovich) in ''Portraits of American Saints'', Compiled and Edited by George A. Gray and Jan V. Bear, Diocese Council and Department of Missions Diocese of the West Orthodox Church in America, 650 Micheltorena Street, Los Angeles, California, 1994, pp. 74-77 (Quoted at [http://www.serfes.org/lives/holyhierarchsaintnicholai.htm Serfes.org])

[[Category:American Saints]]
[[Category:Bishops]]
[[Category:Modern Writers]]
[[Category:Saints]]
[[Category:Serbian Saints]]

[[ro:Nicolae (Velimirovici)]]

OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza

2009-03-18T04:00:12Z

Iliada: /* Oratorical? */ new section

In a monastery, a '''[[refectory|trapeza]]''' (or ''refectory''), is the dining hall where monks and pilgrims gather for food and conversation (although monks don't usually talk during meals). The OrthodoxWiki trapeza serves as the main discussion point for our website. Please feel free to join in—ask anything, suggest an idea, make a comment. We're glad to have you here. For other, more specifically designated discussion pages, check out the [[OrthodoxWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]]. [[Category:OrthodoxWiki]] [[bg:Project:Трапеза]] [[el:OrthodoxWiki:Τράπεζα]] [[fr:OrthodoxWiki:La Cafétéria]] [[mk:Православна-енциклопедија:Трпеза]] [[ro:OrthodoxWiki:Cafenea]]

* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 1|Archive 1]], Feb 2005 – Dec 2005 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Anything_Goes&oldid=22917 Anything Goes] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 2|Archive 2]], Feb 2005 – Aug 2006 (formerly the [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Questions&oldid=37973 Questions] page)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 3|Archive 3]], Oct 2005 – Aug 2006 (moved from [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=37962 Talk:Main Page])
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 4|Archive 4]], Aug 2006 – Dec 2006 (2006 Trapeza archive)
* [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 5|Archive 5]], through November 2008

<center>
Please sign and date your comments by adding four tildes at the end: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>
{| style="border: solid 1px #aaaaaa"
|'''[http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza&action=edit&section=new Add new post]'''
|}
</center>

== Closing down OrthodoxSource and SR ==
Friends, I apologize for being absent for awhile. Please let me know if you have any outstanding wiki issues you need to resolve! 
As of today, I am shutting down OrthodoxSource. Apologies to IXThis888, who has put in a good deal of work. However, there was not enough of a community of contibutors and moderators there, and I think it would be better for us all at this point to keep the focus on this wiki. Also, I will likely be shutting down SR soon. There has been no activity there for a long time, and I'm afraid that the required documents (about copyrights and policies) were never translated. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 12:45, November 25, 2008 (UTC)

== questions ==
hi, i have photos of the raifa monastary i would like to upload as well as a convent neasr yoshkar ola russia which i do not beleive yet has an article how would i create a new article for this? {{unsigned|Kharaku}}
:Hello, on the left hand side of your screen ... scroll down until you see the words
"upload file" .. then follow the steps ...its not too hard and always someone will help you categorise your work ... Good luck! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:16, November 29, 2008 (UTC)

== Adding a Photo.... ==

I have been wanting to post my photo, but do not know HTML.
Could someone please give me a tip on how to do this?

Thanks! {{unsigned|Jacifus}}

: Give a thorough read to the materials linked in the welcome message on your talk page. There's plenty there that should help. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 23:56, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

==Seminarian input==
Over at Citizendium, there is a programme whereby faculty at various universities enjoin their students to post their work. I was wondering if it would make sense here to start publishing seminarians' papers. They come with faculty oversight and would be of sufficient quality to support reliability here. [[User:Thomas Simmons|Thomas Simmons]] 09:28, December 19, 2008 (PST)

:There is also a Wiki Site called "Patristic Wiki" that you should look at. Father John set it up recently (mid-November I think) and they are asking for people to contribute in regards to patristic related stuff .... 22:47, December 18, 2008 (UTC)

:: 1. This is not really a place for papers, but for encyclopedia articles. If seminarians wish to write Orthodox encyclopedia articles here, they are welcome to do so.

:: 2. PatristicsWiki is not connected with OrthodoxWiki and, as far as I know, not set up by (our) Fr. John. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 01:54, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:::Hi, I know that PatristicWiki is not linked with OrthodoxWiki but I mentioned it since I presume that everyone's core intention is to spread Orthodoxy in the way they know how ... who you are affiliated with wrt posting information publically is irrelevant as long as the end users are connected to God and the Truth. I had the impression (our) Father John was involved with it ... since, he monitors the emails for the Ancient Faith podcast that Dcn Matthew has been delivering - and he is from Monachos.net So doh! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 04:03, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

== ROK's Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights ==
I learnt recently the Russian Church adopted a [http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?mid=463 Basic Teaching on Human Dignity, Freedom and Rights]. Metropolitan Kyrill held a [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=65 speech] at a conference in Vienna in 2006 where he said this teaching is meaningful to all christans and at the UN Human Rights Council he [http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=documents&div=121 said] in 2008 adoption of human rights is unsuccessful because it fades out moral. I believe this is important. Would there be interest to have an article on this topic?{{unsigned|Haiduk}}

:Perhaps you should make it a "sub-topic" under the [[Church of Russia]] since it is specific to their jurisdiction? I will give it a shot first if you want and then you can come in and edit??? Remember to sign your posts with three tilde (~) signs. [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:45, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:: I'm glad with just doing a revision. I agree adding it to [[Church of Russia]] would be adequate. It's up to you to follow Fr. Andrew advice or convince him, if that is possible [[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]]
::Honestly now, with no mucking around and with respect to Father Andrew its not MY job to convince and neither do I want to convince him since I trust what he is telling me :) However, if you wish to ..since it is your own idea ...go ahead. I merely was trying to be helpful but if its not appropriate for an article I can only just go with the guy who holds the petraxili .... :) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 14:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, my salvation is not dependent on having such an article at OrthodoxWiki. I just wanted to ensure information about this declaration finds it's way into this community. I guess (since it is not easy to write a reasonable article on this subject) it might be better to forward it to english language blogs or forums such as monachos.net. --[[User:Haiduk|Haiduk]] 16:34, December 20, 2008 (UTC)

: That's interesting, but it's really more fit for a newspaper than an encyclopedia. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:27, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

==Orthodoxy in Italy==
I think it is completely inapropriate to use the title [[Orthodox Church in Italy]] for a non official orthodox church, that exists only 17 years, when in Italy orthodoxy has a history for many centuries. As far as I can see there is an article referred to [[Gennadios (Zervos) of Italy and Malta]] (the primate of the '''diocese of Italy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate'''), but there isn't an article for his archdiocese "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy". Also in the english and italian wikipedia the problem is the same. It seems as if the users who created the "Orthodox Church in Italy" articles were really quickly to catch the title! But it should remain like this? I think no. And it is, in my point of view completely unacceptable if that happens also in the "Orthodoxwiki".--[[User:Sp!ros|Sp!ros]] 21:27, December 29, 2008 (UTC)

: Generally, we use whatever titles such groups give themselves, noting within the article that they are not in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy, etc.

: In any event, I have removed the redirect and changed all the links to [[Chiesa Ortodossa in Italia]].

: You would be most welcome to provide the articles that you suggest are needed. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 20:58, December 31, 2008 (UTC)

== Archbishop Nikitas (Lulias) Cekal Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro ==

Pada Februari 2007 lalu, Metropolitan Orthodox Hongkong dan Asia Tenggara, '''His Eminence Nikitas Lulias''' mengeluarkan keputusan pencekalan (pembebas-tugas-an) terhadap '''Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro''', yang artinya Archimandrit Daniel Bambang tidak diperkenankan lagi (''suspended'') untuk berbicara, melakukan tugas penggembalaan jemaat atas nama gereja. Meskipun archimandrit Daniel mengklaim dirinya menjadi bagian dari satu gereja tertentu, tapi yang bersangkutan tidak lagi menerima putusan/ ketetapan (''Canonical Release'')dari Gereja sebagaimana disyaratkan. Hal ini atas sepengetahuan '''Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.''' {{unsigned|Maruli}}

: I'm honestly not sure what language this is, but unless you post here in English, you're not likely to get too many responses. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 18:46, January 4, 2009 (UTC)

::It's Indonesian. Here's an English rendering (thanks to the ever-improving Google Translate) -- "In February 2007, the Orthodox Metropolitan Hong Kong and Southeast Asia, His Eminence Nikitas Lulias-ban issue a decision (liberator-task-an) of Archimandrit Daniel Bambang Dwi Biantoro, which means Archimandrit Daniel Bambang not be more (suspended) to speak, doing penggembalaan of the church in the name of the church. Although Daniel archimandrit claimed himself to be part of a particular church, but they no longer receive the decision / provisions (Canonical Release) from the Church, as required. This top sepengetahuan Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople." — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk]) 02:05, January 5, 2009 (UTC)

== Churches in Melbourne ==

I plan on uploading around one hundred photographs of churches in Melbourne to [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Orthodox_churches_in_Australia Wikimedia commons] over the next few days. You are free to reuse them; all my work is released into the public domain. Hope to have done all of the Orthodox churches within a few months. [[User:Ottre|Ottre]] 11:55, February 16, 2009 (UTC)

== log in ==

why does no one ever log on and really have discussion on other pages? {{unsigned|Rob}}

: I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. Could you explain a little more? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 22:14, March 9, 2009 (UTC)

== The Cemetery Chapel at Saint Anna's Skete? ==

I'm trying to remember the name of the cemetery chapel at Saint Anna's Skete on the Holy Mountain, the chapel where pilgrims generally worship on weekdays. Does anyone recall which saint the chapel venerates?

Thanks,
Isaak

== Oratorical? ==

Hello again, I looked at the St. John Chrysostom page, and thought that the St. John Chrysostom Oratorical Festival should be included. It would show that he has inspired children to orate the word of God to others, continuing in his footsteps. Since I have participated in the past and am in it again this year, I though it would be a good idea to mention it, and maybe put a link to the GOARCH website where they talk more about it and give more information. Tell me what you think! Thanks,--[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 04:00, March 18, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Image Not-made-by-hands

2009-03-18T02:54:30Z

Iliada: Fixing error

== Grammar ==
In the troparion, the : should be changed to a , right? --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 02:54, March 18, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Image Not-made-by-hands

2009-03-18T02:54:04Z

Iliada: Talk addition

== Grammar ==
In the kontakion, the : should be changed to a , right? --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 02:54, March 18, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:John Chrysostom

2009-03-18T00:13:34Z

Iliada: Starting a talk page

== Oratorical ==
Hello again, I looked at the St. John Chrysostom page, and thought that the St. John Chrysostom Oratorical Festival should be included. It would show that he has inspired children to orate the word of God to others, continuing in his footsteps. Since I have participated in the past and am in it again this year, I though it would be a good idea to mention it, and maybe put a link to the GOARCH website where they talk more about it and give more information. Tell me what you think! Thanks, --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:13, March 18, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Iconography

2009-03-17T20:34:42Z

Iliada: Additional info

in Greek:
εικωνογραφια
or εικονογραφια?

o-mega or o-micron?

: Omega. Check your lexicon. :) --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 11:19, 11 Mar 2005 (CST)

==Copyright==

Question. How is the copyright of an icon determined? Some of the icons are basically reproductions of ancient icons. I'm sure that those icons are governed by other national or international laws or public domain. I have noticed that some icons are copyrighted by a particular church, but why wouldn't they be copyright the iconographer. Can someone explain this?

Incidentally, I have noticed that the OCA has a number of icons. We have used them here. Recently I sent an e-mail to the OCA regarding a particular icon. I cannot find this icon for sale anywhere and wondered if they knew where it came from. They didn't know where the icon came from and believed that the icon was possibly made at the Sofrino workshops outside of Moscow.

I was told that I could always save the icon and print out a copy for framing or laminating. Is this not some kind of copyright violation or does it qualify as fair use? I know that this is an extremely common practice.

They also said that the icons they display come from parish churches, files sent by readers, books, and catalogues. If they don't know where they get the pictures from is that not a copyright problem?

[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe]] 22 Dec 2005 13:26

===Re: Icons and Copyright===
Hi Joe,

I don't claim to be an expert in this, but my impression is that icons are not copyrighted (legally, I suppose the copyright would default to the author, but ecclesiologically speaking I can't imagine this) -- but the images, photos, reprints, etc. of icons are. This is all the more the case with the ancient icons.

I think printing out a copy for personal use would definitely fall under fair use whatever the case. I can't imagine that anyone would want to stop you from that, especially if you can't buy a copy. But, for example, it wouldn't be fair to copy all of HTM's icons to your own site, because this is their livelihood. I think a lot of copyrigt law is just common sense -- although some of it can be counterintuitive... and here, with icons, were balancing an ecclesiastical culture with a certain attitude of free use (for those who use them appropriately) or corporate ownership (i.e. God and the Church). This is certainly an interesting question. I suppose there have been articles written in legal journals on similar issues. Maybe a lawyer can help us (though this is more a curiosity than an issue I'm bruningly concerned about).

As far as OCA.org is concerned, I think that as long as we have their permission to use an image from their site, I'm comfortable just citing the source. If in doubt too, we could always put "unverified" on it.

May others would want to chime in here too. Yours, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

==RE:RE: Icons and Copywright==

Actually I do know several iconographers who have copyrights to their images. It is best to check and see if you can locate the writer if he or she is a modern one and ask permission. I don't mind people using my work for chuch bulletins and so forth. But if a person or a church is trying to make money off of reproductions of a living iconographers work, then you have a problem. It's not that iconographers mind the work being used for prayer and such, but if other people are attempting to make money of what you are doing, it can make a hard life even harder. That is why a lot of modern iconographers do copyright their images. It is a careful balance of doing work for the glory of God, but having to make a living off of it (which is difficult}. All icons are built upon the work of God essentially and the best icons are still sums of all the previous writers. I don't think copyrighted the image is a way of negating this. But in modern times when someone can photocopy your work so easily, and try to profit from it, you have to ask whether they are trying to spread icons, or trying to make money off of it even though they didn't do any work. Supporting the current icon writers by buying an icon from them or one of their reproductions ensures that we will continue to have people willing and able to make icons. On the otherhand, finding a beautiful icon and being unable to locate a copy, well I'm sure that in the end, money and copyright issues aside, the most important thing is worship and veneration, and no iconographer would probably be unhappy to know you venerate with a copy of his or her work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Frogmanman|Frogmanman]] ([[User talk:Frogmanman|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Frogmanman|contribs]]) 23 Dec 2007.

== Various Iconographers - for a future article ==

Following is a list of "iconographers" (as I remember them) that can be used to develop an article (when more information is available):
* Theophanes the Greek - "Theotokos of the Don", 14th Century
* Nikita Pavlovets - Theotokos in the Enclosed Garden, 17th Cenutry
* Radul of Serbia - Ss. Kosmas and Damianos, 1673
* Nicholas Ritzos (15th Cenutry)
* Ioannis Kornaros, Cretan iconographer who painted the portable icon of “Megas i Kirie” (''Lord, Thou Art Great'') of 1770 at Moni Toplou (West of Siteia, Lasithi of Crete).
* Frangos Katelanos (sp?) - Christ the Pantocrator, 1548 (Balkans)
* Andrei Rublev - Christ the Redeemer, 1409 (Russian)
* Simon Ushakov - Christ 'Not Painted by Human Hands', 1657 (Russian)

== Tips concerning the Nine Choirs of Angels & authoring the icons of Angels ==

This is excerpt is from p18 of The Painter's Manual of Dionysus of Fourna as translated by Paul Hetherington, it was posted on an Orthodox thread [http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5324 1] by a "Mary Halloran Snyder" who is studying iconography and is using this material as part of her Iconography research materials. It answers a lot of icon related questions on how to "author" the angels:

:There are nine choirs of Angels as shown by Dionysus the Areopagite, and they are divided into three orders.

:The First Order Thrones, Cherubim, Seraphim. Thrones are represented as fiery wheels with wings all around and with eyes in the wings, they are all entertwined in the form of a king's throne. Cherubim have one head only and two wings. Seraphim have six wings of which two cover their faces, and two their feet and the other two as if spread for flight; in their hands each has a fan on which are these words; "Holy Holy Holy" it was like this that the prophet Isaiah saw them. The tetramorphs are represented thus: they have six wings and upon their heads each have a crown, they have the faces of angels, and they hold the Gospels before their breasts with both hands. Between the two wings above their heads there is an eagle, while there is a lion between the wings on their right, and an ox between those on their left. These animals look up and hold the Gospels their their feet. They appeared thus to the prophet Ezekiel.

:The Second Order that is to say, rank -- Dominations, Powers, Virtues. These are represented wearing robes down to their feet, with girdles and greenish gold stoles, and holding golden rods in their right hands and in their left a seal with this sign (a circle with an x in it)

:The Third Order -- Principalities, Archangels, Angels. These are represented wearing soldier's clothes with golden girdles. They hold spears in their hands of which the tops are pointed and have blades like axe heads."

Can we incorporate this information into the "iconography article" in any way before it is lost into the nothing land? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

: I don't really see how detailed instructions on how to paint icons is really appropriate for an encyclopedia article. OW isn't a how-to manual. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:02, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::and OW Users are not robots with a PHD in everything intellectual ... I propose a rewording of your response:
:::''Thank you for this information. Unfortunately it is not strictly ''encyclopedic'' rather it is more ''instructional'' in its nature ... However, keep up the good work - I notice you make a genuine effort to contribute to OW! Signed ASDamick!''
::Merry Christmas dear Father Andrew .... Signed (your worst nightmare - lol) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 02:40, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::: Silly Vasiliki—never propose a "rewording" to someone with a degree in English literature. Such people are incapable of receiving such hard sayings. I meant what I said and wrote it as I meant to.

:::: That is definately me .. silly :) As a person who does not have a degree in English literature that is exactly why I CAN propose a rewording because I am not bound by rules that I dont know about anyway (Do-Ya get me?) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:10, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::: As to being my "worst nightmare," well... let us just say that you will have to try much harder if that's your aspiration. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:50, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:::: Well, like we said above I am a "literary" Fool-for-Christ ... errm (correction) I aspire to literally be a Fool-for-Christ (not a "worst nightmare") [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:10, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Written or Painted? ==
AS it has been determined, icons are written, not painted. So, the caption under the Apostle Luke "painting" the first icon should be changed to WRITING. Thanks, --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 02:10, March 15, 2009 (UTC)

: Determined? By whom? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 20:49, March 15, 2009 (UTC)

Well, icons, as you know, are more than just religious art. These "windows to heaven" depict the very men and women who have achieved theosis. They were made for the illiterate. St. John of Damascus said, "What the book does for those who understand letters, the image does for the illiterate." As the scriptures are written, so are icons, as they teach us in a similar manner of the Bible. (I am participating in the St. John Chrysostom Oratorical Festival, and my topic is about icons, that's where I get all of my information). --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:47, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

: I agree with your theological point here, but I'm still not sure why this means that ''painted'' is a bad translation and ''written'' is the correct one. (There is no difference between the two words in Greek—indeed, there is only one word—so an insistence on a difference in English is, by definition, an innovation.)

: Church architecture, chanting, and preaching also accomplish this same sort of thing in other ways, yet, to my knowledge, there are no objections against ''building, singing, preaching'', etc.

: Anyway, see the section of the article on this particular question. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 11:11, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

== Painted or Written? ==
Ok, then there must be a change made on the [[Theotokos of Tikhvin]] page, because it says that it is believed to be an icon "written" by the apostle Luke. The same applies to the [[Theotokos of the Passion]], and the [[Diocese of Los Angeles and the West (Antiochian)]] pages. Also, for my speech, I said that some people think that Luke wrote the first icon, and others think it was when St. Veronica placed a cloth to Christ's face. But here I see that Ainaius did it in a similar fashion. Which of the two not by hands happened first? --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 18:11, March 17, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Byzantine Chant

2009-03-17T18:26:37Z

Iliada: Talk addition

this is just my opinion but... i think the sections describing a hymn genre should be its own article, such as the kanon, because it's something that operates independently of any particular culture. byzantine chant should address the particular musical character, i.e. the melody and the performance. but this is just my opinion and i wanted to discuss here before doing anything =]
:[[User:Fedya911|Fedya]] 11:51, February 2, 2006 (CST)

: I'm very much of the opinion that this whole article needs a rewrite. It was originally a paper (as is noted) and not really an encyclopedic article. Regarding the issue you raise, while most of the poetic forms of Orthodox liturgical hymnography were designed to be performed to Byzantine chant, they've come to have an independent state to them, since the same hymns are now performed to multiple kinds of chant. Perhaps it would be best for this article to discuss mainly the music itself, noting of course that it is the original Orthodox Church music. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 12:21, February 2, 2006 (CST)

== The Chant of the Church? ==

I've heard this before, but it sounds like Hellenism to me. It is possible, in non-hellenic churches, to see an entire year through without hearing a single Byzantine melody. Gasp if you must, but the point is that the scope of the introductory paragraph seems limited to Hellenic churches (such as Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Greece, etc.), rendering non-hellenic churches with their own chant systems third-class citizens of the Orthodox musical world. I'd like to hear some opinions on this from a variety of traditions and sources. --[[User:Basil|Basil]] 12:43, March 3, 2006 (CST)

: "It is possible, in non-hellenic churches, to see an entire year through without hearing a single Byzantine melody." Particularly if one is Western Rite Orthodox.

Once I finish reading the style manual I would be willing to take an attempt at re-writing this page. In reagrds to mentioning the Kanon and such, I do not see I problem having a seperate page and mentioning it with Byzantine chant because they developed side by side. It is hard to seperate the origins of Byzantine Chant and the Kanon and Kontakion, for the music was made for the performance of these and vice-versa. --[[User:Basileus|Samuel]]

: Thanks for working on this! While I love Byzantine chant, I'm not nearly enough of an expert on it to work very well on articles pertaining to it. We welcome your contributions. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 13:30, June 16, 2006 (CDT)

== general comment: is this discussion alive? ==

It seems, as noted by the original author, the article was written as an encyclopaedic entry. As such, it seems that it should begin with an historical overview and them move into details of the various forms and later manifestation, including its influence as the starting point for Slavic church music.

To comment regarding the seeming Hellenistic bias mentioned in an earlier post, there's no way around the fact that the first Christian hymnography is Greek. As the chant of the liturgical worship of the Eastern Empire it is primarily Greek. It enters the Syriac, Coptic, Georgian, Slavic and other language cultures via translation. Its influence is felt in the west also Discussion of these forms should be included; most definitely.

This brings me to another point. It seems that a parallel article on Byzantine Orthodox hymnography would also be in order. It is impossible to discuss Byzantine notational systems separately from hymnographical evolutions, troparion, kontakion, kanon, stichera, etc.

There is no reason why we could not go into a review of the study of Byzantine Chant in modern scholarship. Nevertheless, it seems that the starting point would be a historical overview of the hymn-forms, origins (i.e. fathers), sources (i.e. manuscript tradition, hymnbooks), the oktoechos, notational periods, influences, genera (i.e. papadic, sticheraric, heirmologic), forms (prokeimena, koinonika, ainoi, mathemata, megalynaria, etc.), theory, interpretation, etc.

If anyone is still watching this discussion I would be willing to work on some outlines for the article that might offer a good framework for a working article.

Let me know!
frcjtatmsn.com

: This sounds like a fine idea! We've been lacking the combination of both expertise and initiative to get such a set of articles going, but I would be grateful if you'd like to begin. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 12:34, March 27, 2008 (PDT)

== Notes ==
Hi everyone, do you think we should have a picture of Byzantine notes? I uploaded one, but it's not very good. Also, it might be nice to have an audio sample of Byzantine Chant? Tell me what you think! --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 18:21, March 16, 2009 (UTC)
:Yes, of course.[[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 18:46, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

== Picture ==
It's coming, but I have to get permission. --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 18:26, March 17, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Iconography

2009-03-17T18:15:44Z

Iliada: Talk addition

in Greek:
εικωνογραφια
or εικονογραφια?

o-mega or o-micron?

: Omega. Check your lexicon. :) --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 11:19, 11 Mar 2005 (CST)

==Copyright==

Question. How is the copyright of an icon determined? Some of the icons are basically reproductions of ancient icons. I'm sure that those icons are governed by other national or international laws or public domain. I have noticed that some icons are copyrighted by a particular church, but why wouldn't they be copyright the iconographer. Can someone explain this?

Incidentally, I have noticed that the OCA has a number of icons. We have used them here. Recently I sent an e-mail to the OCA regarding a particular icon. I cannot find this icon for sale anywhere and wondered if they knew where it came from. They didn't know where the icon came from and believed that the icon was possibly made at the Sofrino workshops outside of Moscow.

I was told that I could always save the icon and print out a copy for framing or laminating. Is this not some kind of copyright violation or does it qualify as fair use? I know that this is an extremely common practice.

They also said that the icons they display come from parish churches, files sent by readers, books, and catalogues. If they don't know where they get the pictures from is that not a copyright problem?

[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe]] 22 Dec 2005 13:26

===Re: Icons and Copyright===
Hi Joe,

I don't claim to be an expert in this, but my impression is that icons are not copyrighted (legally, I suppose the copyright would default to the author, but ecclesiologically speaking I can't imagine this) -- but the images, photos, reprints, etc. of icons are. This is all the more the case with the ancient icons.

I think printing out a copy for personal use would definitely fall under fair use whatever the case. I can't imagine that anyone would want to stop you from that, especially if you can't buy a copy. But, for example, it wouldn't be fair to copy all of HTM's icons to your own site, because this is their livelihood. I think a lot of copyrigt law is just common sense -- although some of it can be counterintuitive... and here, with icons, were balancing an ecclesiastical culture with a certain attitude of free use (for those who use them appropriately) or corporate ownership (i.e. God and the Church). This is certainly an interesting question. I suppose there have been articles written in legal journals on similar issues. Maybe a lawyer can help us (though this is more a curiosity than an issue I'm bruningly concerned about).

As far as OCA.org is concerned, I think that as long as we have their permission to use an image from their site, I'm comfortable just citing the source. If in doubt too, we could always put "unverified" on it.

May others would want to chime in here too. Yours, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

==RE:RE: Icons and Copywright==

Actually I do know several iconographers who have copyrights to their images. It is best to check and see if you can locate the writer if he or she is a modern one and ask permission. I don't mind people using my work for chuch bulletins and so forth. But if a person or a church is trying to make money off of reproductions of a living iconographers work, then you have a problem. It's not that iconographers mind the work being used for prayer and such, but if other people are attempting to make money of what you are doing, it can make a hard life even harder. That is why a lot of modern iconographers do copyright their images. It is a careful balance of doing work for the glory of God, but having to make a living off of it (which is difficult}. All icons are built upon the work of God essentially and the best icons are still sums of all the previous writers. I don't think copyrighted the image is a way of negating this. But in modern times when someone can photocopy your work so easily, and try to profit from it, you have to ask whether they are trying to spread icons, or trying to make money off of it even though they didn't do any work. Supporting the current icon writers by buying an icon from them or one of their reproductions ensures that we will continue to have people willing and able to make icons. On the otherhand, finding a beautiful icon and being unable to locate a copy, well I'm sure that in the end, money and copyright issues aside, the most important thing is worship and veneration, and no iconographer would probably be unhappy to know you venerate with a copy of his or her work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Frogmanman|Frogmanman]] ([[User talk:Frogmanman|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Frogmanman|contribs]]) 23 Dec 2007.

== Various Iconographers - for a future article ==

Following is a list of "iconographers" (as I remember them) that can be used to develop an article (when more information is available):
* Theophanes the Greek - "Theotokos of the Don", 14th Century
* Nikita Pavlovets - Theotokos in the Enclosed Garden, 17th Cenutry
* Radul of Serbia - Ss. Kosmas and Damianos, 1673
* Nicholas Ritzos (15th Cenutry)
* Ioannis Kornaros, Cretan iconographer who painted the portable icon of “Megas i Kirie” (''Lord, Thou Art Great'') of 1770 at Moni Toplou (West of Siteia, Lasithi of Crete).
* Frangos Katelanos (sp?) - Christ the Pantocrator, 1548 (Balkans)
* Andrei Rublev - Christ the Redeemer, 1409 (Russian)
* Simon Ushakov - Christ 'Not Painted by Human Hands', 1657 (Russian)

== Tips concerning the Nine Choirs of Angels & authoring the icons of Angels ==

This is excerpt is from p18 of The Painter's Manual of Dionysus of Fourna as translated by Paul Hetherington, it was posted on an Orthodox thread [http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5324 1] by a "Mary Halloran Snyder" who is studying iconography and is using this material as part of her Iconography research materials. It answers a lot of icon related questions on how to "author" the angels:

:There are nine choirs of Angels as shown by Dionysus the Areopagite, and they are divided into three orders.

:The First Order Thrones, Cherubim, Seraphim. Thrones are represented as fiery wheels with wings all around and with eyes in the wings, they are all entertwined in the form of a king's throne. Cherubim have one head only and two wings. Seraphim have six wings of which two cover their faces, and two their feet and the other two as if spread for flight; in their hands each has a fan on which are these words; "Holy Holy Holy" it was like this that the prophet Isaiah saw them. The tetramorphs are represented thus: they have six wings and upon their heads each have a crown, they have the faces of angels, and they hold the Gospels before their breasts with both hands. Between the two wings above their heads there is an eagle, while there is a lion between the wings on their right, and an ox between those on their left. These animals look up and hold the Gospels their their feet. They appeared thus to the prophet Ezekiel.

:The Second Order that is to say, rank -- Dominations, Powers, Virtues. These are represented wearing robes down to their feet, with girdles and greenish gold stoles, and holding golden rods in their right hands and in their left a seal with this sign (a circle with an x in it)

:The Third Order -- Principalities, Archangels, Angels. These are represented wearing soldier's clothes with golden girdles. They hold spears in their hands of which the tops are pointed and have blades like axe heads."

Can we incorporate this information into the "iconography article" in any way before it is lost into the nothing land? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

: I don't really see how detailed instructions on how to paint icons is really appropriate for an encyclopedia article. OW isn't a how-to manual. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:02, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::and OW Users are not robots with a PHD in everything intellectual ... I propose a rewording of your response:
:::''Thank you for this information. Unfortunately it is not strictly ''encyclopedic'' rather it is more ''instructional'' in its nature ... However, keep up the good work - I notice you make a genuine effort to contribute to OW! Signed ASDamick!''
::Merry Christmas dear Father Andrew .... Signed (your worst nightmare - lol) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 02:40, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::: Silly Vasiliki—never propose a "rewording" to someone with a degree in English literature. Such people are incapable of receiving such hard sayings. I meant what I said and wrote it as I meant to.

:::: That is definately me .. silly :) As a person who does not have a degree in English literature that is exactly why I CAN propose a rewording because I am not bound by rules that I dont know about anyway (Do-Ya get me?) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:10, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::: As to being my "worst nightmare," well... let us just say that you will have to try much harder if that's your aspiration. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:50, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:::: Well, like we said above I am a "literary" Fool-for-Christ ... errm (correction) I aspire to literally be a Fool-for-Christ (not a "worst nightmare") [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:10, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Written or Painted? ==
AS it has been determined, icons are written, not painted. So, the caption under the Apostle Luke "painting" the first icon should be changed to WRITING. Thanks, --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 02:10, March 15, 2009 (UTC)

: Determined? By whom? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 20:49, March 15, 2009 (UTC)

Well, icons, as you know, are more than just religious art. These "windows to heaven" depict the very men and women who have achieved theosis. They were made for the illiterate. St. John of Damascus said, "What the book does for those who understand letters, the image does for the illiterate." As the scriptures are written, so are icons, as they teach us in a similar manner of the Bible. (I am participating in the St. John Chrysostom Oratorical Festival, and my topic is about icons, that's where I get all of my information). --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:47, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

: I agree with your theological point here, but I'm still not sure why this means that ''painted'' is a bad translation and ''written'' is the correct one. (There is no difference between the two words in Greek—indeed, there is only one word—so an insistence on a difference in English is, by definition, an innovation.)

: Church architecture, chanting, and preaching also accomplish this same sort of thing in other ways, yet, to my knowledge, there are no objections against ''building, singing, preaching'', etc.

: Anyway, see the section of the article on this particular question. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 11:11, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

== Painted or Written? ==
Ok, then there must be a change made on the [[Theotokos of Tikhvin]] page, because it says that it is believed to be an icon "written" by the apostle Luke. The same applies to the [[Theotokos of the Passion]], and the [[Diocese of Los Angeles and the West (Antiochian)]] pages. --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 18:11, March 17, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Iconography

2009-03-17T18:11:11Z

Iliada: Talk addition

in Greek:
εικωνογραφια
or εικονογραφια?

o-mega or o-micron?

: Omega. Check your lexicon. :) --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 11:19, 11 Mar 2005 (CST)

==Copyright==

Question. How is the copyright of an icon determined? Some of the icons are basically reproductions of ancient icons. I'm sure that those icons are governed by other national or international laws or public domain. I have noticed that some icons are copyrighted by a particular church, but why wouldn't they be copyright the iconographer. Can someone explain this?

Incidentally, I have noticed that the OCA has a number of icons. We have used them here. Recently I sent an e-mail to the OCA regarding a particular icon. I cannot find this icon for sale anywhere and wondered if they knew where it came from. They didn't know where the icon came from and believed that the icon was possibly made at the Sofrino workshops outside of Moscow.

I was told that I could always save the icon and print out a copy for framing or laminating. Is this not some kind of copyright violation or does it qualify as fair use? I know that this is an extremely common practice.

They also said that the icons they display come from parish churches, files sent by readers, books, and catalogues. If they don't know where they get the pictures from is that not a copyright problem?

[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe]] 22 Dec 2005 13:26

===Re: Icons and Copyright===
Hi Joe,

I don't claim to be an expert in this, but my impression is that icons are not copyrighted (legally, I suppose the copyright would default to the author, but ecclesiologically speaking I can't imagine this) -- but the images, photos, reprints, etc. of icons are. This is all the more the case with the ancient icons.

I think printing out a copy for personal use would definitely fall under fair use whatever the case. I can't imagine that anyone would want to stop you from that, especially if you can't buy a copy. But, for example, it wouldn't be fair to copy all of HTM's icons to your own site, because this is their livelihood. I think a lot of copyrigt law is just common sense -- although some of it can be counterintuitive... and here, with icons, were balancing an ecclesiastical culture with a certain attitude of free use (for those who use them appropriately) or corporate ownership (i.e. God and the Church). This is certainly an interesting question. I suppose there have been articles written in legal journals on similar issues. Maybe a lawyer can help us (though this is more a curiosity than an issue I'm bruningly concerned about).

As far as OCA.org is concerned, I think that as long as we have their permission to use an image from their site, I'm comfortable just citing the source. If in doubt too, we could always put "unverified" on it.

May others would want to chime in here too. Yours, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

==RE:RE: Icons and Copywright==

Actually I do know several iconographers who have copyrights to their images. It is best to check and see if you can locate the writer if he or she is a modern one and ask permission. I don't mind people using my work for chuch bulletins and so forth. But if a person or a church is trying to make money off of reproductions of a living iconographers work, then you have a problem. It's not that iconographers mind the work being used for prayer and such, but if other people are attempting to make money of what you are doing, it can make a hard life even harder. That is why a lot of modern iconographers do copyright their images. It is a careful balance of doing work for the glory of God, but having to make a living off of it (which is difficult}. All icons are built upon the work of God essentially and the best icons are still sums of all the previous writers. I don't think copyrighted the image is a way of negating this. But in modern times when someone can photocopy your work so easily, and try to profit from it, you have to ask whether they are trying to spread icons, or trying to make money off of it even though they didn't do any work. Supporting the current icon writers by buying an icon from them or one of their reproductions ensures that we will continue to have people willing and able to make icons. On the otherhand, finding a beautiful icon and being unable to locate a copy, well I'm sure that in the end, money and copyright issues aside, the most important thing is worship and veneration, and no iconographer would probably be unhappy to know you venerate with a copy of his or her work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Frogmanman|Frogmanman]] ([[User talk:Frogmanman|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Frogmanman|contribs]]) 23 Dec 2007.

== Various Iconographers - for a future article ==

Following is a list of "iconographers" (as I remember them) that can be used to develop an article (when more information is available):
* Theophanes the Greek - "Theotokos of the Don", 14th Century
* Nikita Pavlovets - Theotokos in the Enclosed Garden, 17th Cenutry
* Radul of Serbia - Ss. Kosmas and Damianos, 1673
* Nicholas Ritzos (15th Cenutry)
* Ioannis Kornaros, Cretan iconographer who painted the portable icon of “Megas i Kirie” (''Lord, Thou Art Great'') of 1770 at Moni Toplou (West of Siteia, Lasithi of Crete).
* Frangos Katelanos (sp?) - Christ the Pantocrator, 1548 (Balkans)
* Andrei Rublev - Christ the Redeemer, 1409 (Russian)
* Simon Ushakov - Christ 'Not Painted by Human Hands', 1657 (Russian)

== Tips concerning the Nine Choirs of Angels & authoring the icons of Angels ==

This is excerpt is from p18 of The Painter's Manual of Dionysus of Fourna as translated by Paul Hetherington, it was posted on an Orthodox thread [http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5324 1] by a "Mary Halloran Snyder" who is studying iconography and is using this material as part of her Iconography research materials. It answers a lot of icon related questions on how to "author" the angels:

:There are nine choirs of Angels as shown by Dionysus the Areopagite, and they are divided into three orders.

:The First Order Thrones, Cherubim, Seraphim. Thrones are represented as fiery wheels with wings all around and with eyes in the wings, they are all entertwined in the form of a king's throne. Cherubim have one head only and two wings. Seraphim have six wings of which two cover their faces, and two their feet and the other two as if spread for flight; in their hands each has a fan on which are these words; "Holy Holy Holy" it was like this that the prophet Isaiah saw them. The tetramorphs are represented thus: they have six wings and upon their heads each have a crown, they have the faces of angels, and they hold the Gospels before their breasts with both hands. Between the two wings above their heads there is an eagle, while there is a lion between the wings on their right, and an ox between those on their left. These animals look up and hold the Gospels their their feet. They appeared thus to the prophet Ezekiel.

:The Second Order that is to say, rank -- Dominations, Powers, Virtues. These are represented wearing robes down to their feet, with girdles and greenish gold stoles, and holding golden rods in their right hands and in their left a seal with this sign (a circle with an x in it)

:The Third Order -- Principalities, Archangels, Angels. These are represented wearing soldier's clothes with golden girdles. They hold spears in their hands of which the tops are pointed and have blades like axe heads."

Can we incorporate this information into the "iconography article" in any way before it is lost into the nothing land? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

: I don't really see how detailed instructions on how to paint icons is really appropriate for an encyclopedia article. OW isn't a how-to manual. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:02, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::and OW Users are not robots with a PHD in everything intellectual ... I propose a rewording of your response:
:::''Thank you for this information. Unfortunately it is not strictly ''encyclopedic'' rather it is more ''instructional'' in its nature ... However, keep up the good work - I notice you make a genuine effort to contribute to OW! Signed ASDamick!''
::Merry Christmas dear Father Andrew .... Signed (your worst nightmare - lol) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 02:40, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::: Silly Vasiliki—never propose a "rewording" to someone with a degree in English literature. Such people are incapable of receiving such hard sayings. I meant what I said and wrote it as I meant to.

:::: That is definately me .. silly :) As a person who does not have a degree in English literature that is exactly why I CAN propose a rewording because I am not bound by rules that I dont know about anyway (Do-Ya get me?) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:10, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::: As to being my "worst nightmare," well... let us just say that you will have to try much harder if that's your aspiration. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:50, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:::: Well, like we said above I am a "literary" Fool-for-Christ ... errm (correction) I aspire to literally be a Fool-for-Christ (not a "worst nightmare") [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:10, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Written or Painted? ==
AS it has been determined, icons are written, not painted. So, the caption under the Apostle Luke "painting" the first icon should be changed to WRITING. Thanks, --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 02:10, March 15, 2009 (UTC)

: Determined? By whom? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 20:49, March 15, 2009 (UTC)

Well, icons, as you know, are more than just religious art. These "windows to heaven" depict the very men and women who have achieved theosis. They were made for the illiterate. St. John of Damascus said, "What the book does for those who understand letters, the image does for the illiterate." As the scriptures are written, so are icons, as they teach us in a similar manner of the Bible. (I am participating in the St. John Chrysostom Oratorical Festival, and my topic is about icons, that's where I get all of my information). --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:47, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

: I agree with your theological point here, but I'm still not sure why this means that ''painted'' is a bad translation and ''written'' is the correct one. (There is no difference between the two words in Greek—indeed, there is only one word—so an insistence on a difference in English is, by definition, an innovation.)

: Church architecture, chanting, and preaching also accomplish this same sort of thing in other ways, yet, to my knowledge, there are no objections against ''building, singing, preaching'', etc.

: Anyway, see the section of the article on this particular question. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 11:11, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

== Painted or Written? ==
Ok, then there must be a change made on the [[Theotokos of Tikhvin]] page, because it says that it is believed to be an icon "written" by the apostle Luke. --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 18:11, March 17, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Main Page

2009-03-17T01:03:36Z

Iliada: Suggesting

{| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE; width: 100%"

|'''This page is for only for discussing the layout and content of the Main Page.''' Please use the [[OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza]] for general site discussion. Use the + tab at the top of this page if you want to add a discussion topic about the Main Page.
|}

== A suggestion about the saints of the day ==

I know that a majority of the Orthodox in America are on the New Calendar, but since a majority of the Orthodox in the world are on the Old, would it be possible to list the saints of the day according to each calendar... somewhat along the lines of what is done on the main page of [http://orthodoxinfo.com Orthodoxinfo.com]?

-Fr. John Whiteford 3-22-07 (3-09-07 o.s.) :)

: There are two possibilities for this that I can think of:

* Edit all 366 calendar day templates to include a separate section for the OC day. (This will require some rearranging of the main page design to account for the extra text.)
* Figure out some way to code the wiki to display a separate section which automatically figures -13 days. At the moment, the daily feasts section is possible because the wiki "knows" what day it is today. (This will also require redesign for the main page.)

:Of these two, I don't know how to do the latter, but it would require much less work.

:The difficulty with the former, aside from being a large amount of work, would be that it would make all the many thousands of internal links to dates confused: to which date should they link? Both? The calendar local to the saint when he died? Either way, this would require a level of work I don't even want to begin to imagine.

:I'm hoping perhaps [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] knows of some module or something he can plug in or write to teach the wiki how to figure out what day it was 13 days ago. It seems like a relatively simple thing for a computer to figure. The first solution seems almost insurmountable to me.

:In any event, since we invented the "Today's feasts" section, I've wished we could display the OC feasts, as well. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 05:13, March 22, 2007 (PDT)

::For what it’s worth, here’s my thoughts. In the first option, ''Edit all 366 calendar day templates'', each template could just include the template of 13 days earlier. The problem is that on leap years, the first half of March will need to be altered and altered back afterwards. (The page could just display a link to the other day instead of displaying the text).

::The second option, using math, is better, but [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Calculation calculations] do not seem to work here. But if it did, not only could OC dates be calculated, but moving feast days could be calculated too. - [[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 06:41, March 22, 2007 (PDT)

:::It looks like there are some [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Date templates] at meta wiki for Julian dates, and it might be useful to look into importing them. However, due to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_day#Alternatives large amount] of information, I'm not sure what we'd need. —[[User:Magda|magda]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 09:18, March 22, 2007 (PDT)

::: Editing templates to include the template from 13 days earlier wouldn't work, as it would become multi-referential and end up including all 366 days every time. In addition, in leap years, the alignment is different around Feb. 29. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 14:25, March 22, 2007 (PDT)

::::I am not enough of a computer nerd to know how workable this would be, but if there was a way to just subtract 13 days from any given date that factored in what year it was, you would have the correct Julian date through the rest of this century, because every year that is a leap year, is a leap year on both calendars.

::::-Fr. John Whiteford

::::: The only way that would work is if it were automatically done. I was responding to the suggesting of hard-coding in nested templates; this would only work if years all had exactly the same number of days, since -13 for March 1, for instance, will be different from one year to the next. I think the only way this will work is if we can somehow get the wiki to calculate -13 based on <nowiki>{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}</nowiki>, which generates the appropriate date. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 18:52, March 22, 2007 (PDT)

::::I could put you in touch with Patrick Barnes. I'm not sure how he does it, but it works.

::::-Fr. John Whiteford

::::: I can't imagine that that would be compatible with the wiki software. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 17:28, March 22, 2007 (PDT)

== Scientific Julian Date vs. Julian Calendar ==

It is not clear from the templates, but the Julian Date is a scientific way of calculating time that only has a tangential connection with the Julian Calendar... so you would just want to make sure you were getting the right Julian Date.

-Fr. John Whiteford

:Hi Fr. John, Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure I know what you mean - is this issue clarified on the [[Julian Calendar]] page? — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

:: See [[Wikipedia:Julian day]]. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 17:29, March 22, 2007 (PDT)

:::I added this as a link on the [[Julian Calendar]] page. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

== A new suggestion about the Saints of the Day ==

I am not sure how the main page is set up, but for each day you have a template, and a page for the day. On the page for each day you could easily have it point to the Template for both the old and new calendars. There are only 13 days each 4 years that this would be a problem for, and that is March 1-13. You could deal with that by just setting up those days the way that they will be in a non-leap year year, and maybe put a note regarding the one day variance when a leap year occurs. You could put two templates for the Old calendar on these days, with the second template prefaced by a note that these are the Old Calendar commemorations when it is a leap year. You could modify the day pages for these dates every leap year, and then change them back afterwards.

Then the main page could draw from the text of the day page rather than the templates. What think ye all? [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 10:13, April 19, 2007 (PDT)

: This syntax won't work for the main page, because the main page's feasts are based on an automatic variable that "knows" what day it is and includes the proper template accordingly. If you know how to make the wiki calculate -13 from the date it "knows," then we're in business.

: The main page doesn't include [[April 19]], but rather [[Template:April 19]]. Editing [[April 19]] to include [[Template:April 6]] only adjusts [[April 19]] and would not show up on the main page. If, however, you were to edit [[Template:April 19]] to include [[Template:April 6]] (and do the same for all calendar days), the output would be a recursive, endless loop including the entire calendar and repeating infinitely.

: Having the main page include [[April 19]] (that is, as a new template, not as [[April 19]]), however, would mean having to create a whole series of nested templates, involving changing every single link to a date in the whole wiki (many thousands of links).

: [[April 19]] is not a template and cannot be included as one. So, to keep the date links simple throughout the wiki (i.e., linking simply to the date and not to a template), [[April 19]] would need to include a [[Template:April 19]], which would in turn include nested templates for [[Template:April 19 (new)]] and [[Template:April 19 (old)]]. (It couldn't just include [[Template:April 6]], because that would introduce recursion.)

: But that then introduces confusion for folks who click on [[April 19]] and see two sets of feasts, one labeled as "Old" and one as "New." This would be a problem, for instance, in the [[Annunciation]] article. You click on [[March 25]] and see that the "New" feasts include Annunciation, but the "Old" do not. Does that mean that Old Calendarists aren't celebrating the Annunciation on March 25? In fact, they ''are'' celebrating it on March 25, but by another calendar. I can think of no way of solving that problem.

: I really think we need to find some sort of extension for the wiki so that it can "know" what day it was 13 days ago. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 13:45, April 19, 2007 (PDT)

:: I agree that your fix would be the ultimate fix, but short of that, is it possible to put templates inside of templates? If so, you could have a template for Apirl 19 which is formated such that it has two subtemplates: one with the menologion for April 19th, and another that would be preceeded by a lable such as April 6th, O.S. (or something like that) with a template for the April 6th Menologion.
::To make this happen, we would need to rename the calendar templates as we now have them, and then creat new templates for each day that would point to two of those renamed templates for each day. If you think it would work, I would be happy to do the actual foot work on it, once we had an agreed upon format. [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 18:41, April 19, 2007 (PDT)

::: Yes, templates can be nested. I do think that it would work, but it doesn't solve the problem I outlined in my last paragraph above. When you click on the non-template date article, you see two sets of dates, one "new" and the other "old." But which one did the link you followed reference?

::: I also think the 13 problem days during a leap year would make for some serious design imbalance and ugliness on the Main Page. (Of course, having two sets of feasts will likely require some redesigning, anyway.)

::: I'm hoping that [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] might be willing to look into the idea of automating this before we do a massive amount of hard-coding for it, because I definitely agree that we should be able to put the OS feasts on the Main Page, too. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 19:28, April 19, 2007 (PDT)

::: '''Addendum:''' Okay, I've learned that I was wrong about including articles that are in the main namespace (i.e., anything that doesn't have a "Something:" in front of it). You can include a main namespace article by this syntax: '''<nowiki>{{:ArticleName}}</nowiki>'''.

::: If we have to do the hard-coding solution, it might end up being possible not to have to nest templates, after all. We would, however, have to reformat the calendar day articles (e.g., [[April 19]]) with various instances of <nowiki><includeonly></nowiki> and <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> tags. (I could probably make my [[User:ByzBot|bot]] do that.)

::: Perhaps, for instance, the OS feasts could be put inside <nowiki><includeonly></nowiki> tags. That way, the only way you'd see them is when the date article is transcluded onto the Main Page. Then, all the apparatus we'd like to appear when one clicks on the day (e.g., categories, headers, etc.) would be put inside <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> tags so that it wouldn't appear on the Main Page. (This solves my "Which kind of date did I click from?" problem, BTW, since you'd only see one set of dates.) —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 19:50, April 19, 2007 (PDT)

===Automating it===
Well, I just messed around with importing various templates from [[meta:Category:Date computing template]], but I either imported them wrongly or perhaps our wiki doesn't (yet?) have the extensions to do this sort of math. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 20:30, April 19, 2007 (PDT)

===Something missing===

In the Saints starting topic the Greek saints aren't mentioned( they are mentioned thought in the Saints starting page). —[[User:Harry|Harry]]
:The Lithuanian Saints were missing too - [[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 12:23, March 31, 2008 (PDT)

== Christ is Risen on Main Page ==

Hi, could someone please add the Christ is Risen tag and maybe a picture to this main page!! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 23:07, April 28, 2008 (UTC)

: Done. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 23:37, April 28, 2008 (UTC)

Hi, its time to change the "FEATURED ARTICLE" from Paschal Homily to something ...else! - [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 01:01, July 3, 2008 (UTC)

== Monophysitism vs Oriental Orthodoxy ==

Hi, I don't understand the difference between Monophysitism and Oriental Orthodoxy and their difference with the East Orthodox Church. What is their main difference? Should we merge the two articles? --[[User:Consta|Consta]] 14:15, December 5, 2008 (UTC)

: Nope. The Oriental Orthodox do not believe in Monophysitism, but rather [[Miaphysitism]]. Read the articles for some of the details. (Admittedly, they do need some expansion and further work.) In the future, please direct comments, questions and suggestions about those articles on the relevant articles themselves. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 15:35, December 5, 2008 (UTC)

== Saint of the day? ==
I listen to Ancient Faith Radio, and they do the saint of the day. Maybe we should link to that page, where additional info can be found.

Talk:Angels

2009-03-17T00:33:51Z

Iliada: Talk addition

What category would Angels go under??--[[User:MariaCrabtree|Arlie]] 14:39, 9 Aug 2005 (EDT)

: It seems to me that [[:Category:Saints]] would be fine, but we might also make a [[:Category:Angels]] for the articles for the types of angels.

: I'm wondering, though, if the various sorts of angels shouldn't all just be included in this one article, with redirects from the various names of angels pointing here. Is there a substantial amount of material for each sort such that it couldn't be included in [[Angels]]? —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 19:31, 9 Aug 2005 (EDT)

-----

I knew also about the fourth dimension, the fourth element (ancients called it "fire", so it's not the latest in scientific discovery), and the many-many dimensions that string-theory attributes to our Universe, the Dirac matrixes and all that (that's what Discovery Channel's for, after all) ... I just wanted to make a paralel : i.e., just like the image of the family (father, mother, son), or that of the sun (disc, light, heat) are used by the very same apophatical Fathers for the Trinity (without harming the Mistery of the Holy Trinity -- "Eu nu ucid corola de minuni a lumii", to quote my namesake). [P.S. : if anyone doesn't like my comparisson he's got my "blessing" to simply delete it at will]. And there's a fifth element also, namely the state of agregation into which atoms enter when they are at a temperature around 0K (-273.15 centigrade).

=No offence taken=
Oh, I don't have a problem with the metaphor at all. I think it's quite a nice comparison. I just was afraid that it would be taken too literally. Do you think I went overboard on the science stuff? I think I'll tone it down a bit.

P.S. Plasma ''is'' a new discovery, entirely different from fire (though the two could be compared, I suppose). Plasma only exists on the sun or other superheated bodies. Also, I believe that the ancients proposed these elements as components that make up matter, not as different phases of the same substance. Although, really, you're right, the parallels between the four elements and four phases of matter are really pretty amazing. Sorry, I like to be picky and had to object. Don't mind me.[[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 21:47, July 27, 2006 (CDT)

:Gabriela, "''be cool'', stay in school" -- You didn't offend or hurt anyone. ("''Just relax'': that's what Jesus would do" -- well, not quite, but still...) And Your comments were pretty pertinent, very good, and well-written. I had nothing to object to them. (If You want to re-arrange, re-edit, re-phrase, re-write anything, it's perfectly OK {as in Okay, not as in -270cg :-) }).
:P.S.: I knew that we, Orthodox, believe in "one single source", but I think that was meant with regard to the Holy Trinity, not to the Author of ''The Celestial Hierarchy'' :-) -- he wasn't "the only source", as You've put it, that gives us this information. (What about St. Gregory, the Bishop of Rome?) [[User:Luci83ro|Luci83ro]] 09:32, July 28, 2006 (CDT)

Sup people
Plasma ''is'' a new discovery David Bohm and he said that Plasma is every place and to top it off he said the plasma on this side of the world knows what the plasma on the other side is doing. Quantum theory and Bohm-diffusion well look here the limit is called Sub-Quantum-Physics they see it but can't touch it. Look at it this way Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

How big is the house that holds Heaven the THRONE with Earth as a footstool

::Hmm... Not sure what to say about all of this, especially because there seems to be some piece of discussion missing. Maybe these thoughts need to be more clearly expressed, but personal theories about the meaning of angels don't really have a place here. We're talking about angels in Orthodox theology. — [[User:FrJohn|FrJohn]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit&section=new talk])

:::It seems to me like this user is just saying nonsense for the hell of it, as a strange prank of sorts. On one hand, it seems harmless enough because he's not really defacing the wiki, but it's also rather pointless and annoying. Maybe he should be warned. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 22:35, October 1, 2006 (CDT)

Am I the user who's saying nonsense for the hell of it? If so, then please forgive me; but I REALLY meant it when I said that ANYONE who doesn't like my additions and/or alterations can feel free to change them, or simply delete them, as he/she pleases. I have really nothing against it. :( [[User:Luci83ro|Luci83ro]] 20:58, October 6, 2006 (CDT)

::::No, Luci83ro, I didn't mean you at all. I think you've very much contributed to the article. I was talking about the user MIG who posted the above comment on this page: "...he said the plasma on this side of the world knows what the plasma on the other side is doing. Quantum theory and Bohm-diffusion well look here the limit is called Sub-Quantum-Physics they see it but can't touch it...". Anyway, I was just saying that I thought ''that'' comment was completely incoherent nonsense. Not you at all. [[User:Gabriela|Gabriela]] 22:48, October 6, 2006 (CDT)

::::Ok. Now, ''that'''s relieving. (Phew!) [[User:Luci83ro|Luci83ro]] 06:35, October 7, 2006 (CDT)

== Pictures ==
Is it possible to get pictures on the different pages of angels? They are short articles, and I think pictures would enhance them. --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 19:07, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, you might help![[User:Wsk|Wsk]] 21:45, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

== Pictures ==
Ok, I am trying to get some. I just need permission from certain people. --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:33, March 17, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Angels

2009-03-16T19:07:17Z

Iliada: Page adding

Talk:Athenagoras I (Spyrou) of Constantinople

2009-03-16T19:01:16Z

Iliada: Talk addition

==Quotes==

I've added <s>I'm thinking of adding</s> quotes from [http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/athenagoras.htm here], which are excerpts from ''Conversations with Patriarch Athenagoras'' written by the French Orthodox theologian and writer, Olivier Clement in 1969. The problem is theres a lot of text in there. If anyone has a particular favorite part or quote, please add it. All emphasis my own. [[User:Hellenica|Hellenica]] 12:48, September 12, 2006 (CDT)

"'''I do not deny that there are differences between the Churches, but I say that we must change our way of approaching them. And the question of method is in the first place a psychological, or rather a spiritual problem.''' For centuries there have been conversations between theologians, and they have done nothing except to harden their positions. I have a whole library about it. And why? Because they spoke in fear and distrust of one another, with the desire to defend themselves and to defeat the others. Theology was no longer a pure celebration of the mystery of God. It became a weapon. God himself became a weapon!"

"'''Those who accuse me of sacrificing Orthodoxy to a bind obsession with love, have a very poor conception of the truth.''' They make it into a system which they possess, which reassures them, when what it really is, is the living glorification of the living God, with all the risks involved in creative life. And we don’t possess God; it is He who holds us and fills us with His presence in proportion to our humility and love. Only by love can we glorify the God of love, only by giving and sharing and sacrificing oneself can one glorify the God who, to save us, sacrificed himself and went to death, the death of the cross."

"'''Orthodoxy, if it goes back to the sources of its great tradition, will be the humble and faithful witness to the undivided Church. The Orthodox Churches, in coming together themselves in mutual respect and love, will set a movement of brotherhood going throughout the Christian world, giving the example of a free communion of sister Churches, united by the same sacraments and the same faith.''' As to the Orthodox faith, centered as it is on liturgical praise and worship, and on holiness, it will bring the criterion of spiritual experience to ecumenical dialogue, a criterion which will allow us to disentangle partial truths from their limitations so that they may be reconciled in a higher plenitude of truth."

"'''But we Orthodox: are we worthy of Orthodoxy? Up till the efforts we have made in recent years, what kind of example have our Churches given? We are united in faith and united in the chalice, but we have become strangers to one another, sometimes rivals.''' And our great tradition, the Fathers, Palamas, the Philokalia: is it living and creative in us? If we are satisfied to repeat our formulas, hardening them against our fellow Christians, then our inheritance will become something dead. It is sharing, humility, reconciliation which makes us truly Orthodox, holding the faith not for ourselves – if we did that we should simply be affirming yet one more historic confession of faith – but for the union of all, as the selfless witnesses of the undivided Church."

== Edit History ==

In searching for more information via Google, I found about 75% of the 1st page was other Wikis with the very same article as ours. My guess was that it was sourced from Wikipedia, but as it turns out, it looks like the OrthoWiki article was the source for the Wiki article itself: [http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Athenagoras_I_%28Spyrou%29_of_Constantinople&direction=next&oldid=10442 OrthoWiki Revision as of 20:01, September 21, 2005] as compared to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Patriarch_Athenagoras_I_of_Constantinople&direction=next&oldid=33018564 Wikipedia Revision as of 13:36, 28 December 2005]. [[User:Hellenica|Hellenica]] 13:07, September 12, 2006 (CDT)

== Philophtochos ==
Why isn't there an article about it?

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T18:49:41Z

Iliada: Page adding

== I am John, a teenager from NH. I attend the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, and am a chanter there (yet I cannot yet read Byzantine music! I would like to learn though!). Religion has always fascinated me, and I am very involved in our faith. I enjoy writing and speaking, and am a decent writer and orator, and would love to contribute to the site! ==

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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
|}

[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T18:44:37Z

Iliada: Fixing error

== I am John, a teenager from NH. I attend the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, and am a chanter there. Religion has always fascinated me, and I am very involved in our faith. I enjoy writing and speaking, and am a decent writer and orator, and would love to contribute to the site! ==

{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is of [[Greece|Greek]] heritage and is [[Greek Orthodox|Orthodox]].
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user is a [[Cantor|Chantor]].
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user enjoys [[Greek Culture]].
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{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #40826D;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
|}

[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T18:44:14Z

Iliada: Fixing up

== '''I am John, a teenager from NH. I attend the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, and am a chanter there. Religion has always fascinated me, and I am very involved in our faith. I enjoy writing and speaking, and am a decent writer and orator, and would love to contribute to the site!'''
==

{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is of [[Greece|Greek]] heritage and is [[Greek Orthodox|Orthodox]].
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user is a [[Cantor|Chantor]].
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user enjoys [[Greek Culture]].
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{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #40826D;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
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<div style="float: left; border: solid lightgrey 1px; margin: 1px;">
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
|}

[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T18:43:27Z

Iliada: TEST

'''I am John, a teenager from NH. I attend the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, and am a chanter there. Religion has always fascinated me, and I am very involved in our faith. I enjoy writing and speaking, and am a decent writer and orator, and would love to contribute to the site!'''

{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is of [[Greece|Greek]] heritage and is [[Greek Orthodox|Orthodox]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" | [[Image:Theotokos of Vladimir.jpg|50px]]
|}

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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user is a [[Cantor|Chantor]].
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{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user enjoys [[Greek Culture]].
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|}

<div style="float: left; border: solid lightgrey 1px; margin: 1px;">
{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #40826D;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
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<div style="float: left; border: solid lightgrey 1px; margin: 1px;">
{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #C3766D;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
|}

[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T18:43:10Z

Iliada: Adding info

I am John, a teenager from NH. I attend the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, and am a chanter there. Religion has always fascinated me, and I am very involved in our faith. I enjoy writing and speaking, and am a decent writer and orator, and would love to contribute to the site!

{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is of [[Greece|Greek]] heritage and is [[Greek Orthodox|Orthodox]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" | [[Image:Theotokos of Vladimir.jpg|50px]]
|}

{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user is a [[Cantor|Chantor]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" | 
|}

{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user enjoys [[Greek Culture]].
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|}

<div style="float: left; border: solid lightgrey 1px; margin: 1px;">
{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #40826D;"
| style="width: 45px; height: 45px; background: darkblue; text-align: center; font-size: 14pt;" |[[Image:Rosetta Stone BW.jpg|41px]]
| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
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<div style="float: left; border: solid lightgrey 1px; margin: 1px;">
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
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[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]

Talk:Byzantine Chant

2009-03-16T18:23:44Z

Iliada: Talk addition

Talk:Byzantine Chant

2009-03-16T18:21:35Z

Iliada: Fixing error

this is just my opinion but... i think the sections describing a hymn genre should be its own article, such as the kanon, because it's something that operates independently of any particular culture. byzantine chant should address the particular musical character, i.e. the melody and the performance. but this is just my opinion and i wanted to discuss here before doing anything =]
:[[User:Fedya911|Fedya]] 11:51, February 2, 2006 (CST)

: I'm very much of the opinion that this whole article needs a rewrite. It was originally a paper (as is noted) and not really an encyclopedic article. Regarding the issue you raise, while most of the poetic forms of Orthodox liturgical hymnography were designed to be performed to Byzantine chant, they've come to have an independent state to them, since the same hymns are now performed to multiple kinds of chant. Perhaps it would be best for this article to discuss mainly the music itself, noting of course that it is the original Orthodox Church music. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 12:21, February 2, 2006 (CST)

== The Chant of the Church? ==

I've heard this before, but it sounds like Hellenism to me. It is possible, in non-hellenic churches, to see an entire year through without hearing a single Byzantine melody. Gasp if you must, but the point is that the scope of the introductory paragraph seems limited to Hellenic churches (such as Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Greece, etc.), rendering non-hellenic churches with their own chant systems third-class citizens of the Orthodox musical world. I'd like to hear some opinions on this from a variety of traditions and sources. --[[User:Basil|Basil]] 12:43, March 3, 2006 (CST)

: "It is possible, in non-hellenic churches, to see an entire year through without hearing a single Byzantine melody." Particularly if one is Western Rite Orthodox.

Once I finish reading the style manual I would be willing to take an attempt at re-writing this page. In reagrds to mentioning the Kanon and such, I do not see I problem having a seperate page and mentioning it with Byzantine chant because they developed side by side. It is hard to seperate the origins of Byzantine Chant and the Kanon and Kontakion, for the music was made for the performance of these and vice-versa. --[[User:Basileus|Samuel]]

: Thanks for working on this! While I love Byzantine chant, I'm not nearly enough of an expert on it to work very well on articles pertaining to it. We welcome your contributions. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 13:30, June 16, 2006 (CDT)

== general comment: is this discussion alive? ==

It seems, as noted by the original author, the article was written as an encyclopaedic entry. As such, it seems that it should begin with an historical overview and them move into details of the various forms and later manifestation, including its influence as the starting point for Slavic church music.

To comment regarding the seeming Hellenistic bias mentioned in an earlier post, there's no way around the fact that the first Christian hymnography is Greek. As the chant of the liturgical worship of the Eastern Empire it is primarily Greek. It enters the Syriac, Coptic, Georgian, Slavic and other language cultures via translation. Its influence is felt in the west also Discussion of these forms should be included; most definitely.

This brings me to another point. It seems that a parallel article on Byzantine Orthodox hymnography would also be in order. It is impossible to discuss Byzantine notational systems separately from hymnographical evolutions, troparion, kontakion, kanon, stichera, etc.

There is no reason why we could not go into a review of the study of Byzantine Chant in modern scholarship. Nevertheless, it seems that the starting point would be a historical overview of the hymn-forms, origins (i.e. fathers), sources (i.e. manuscript tradition, hymnbooks), the oktoechos, notational periods, influences, genera (i.e. papadic, sticheraric, heirmologic), forms (prokeimena, koinonika, ainoi, mathemata, megalynaria, etc.), theory, interpretation, etc.

If anyone is still watching this discussion I would be willing to work on some outlines for the article that might offer a good framework for a working article.

Let me know!
frcjtatmsn.com

: This sounds like a fine idea! We've been lacking the combination of both expertise and initiative to get such a set of articles going, but I would be grateful if you'd like to begin. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 12:34, March 27, 2008 (PDT)

== Notes ==
Hi everyone, do you think we should have a picture of Byzantine notes? I uploaded one, but it's not very good. Tell me what you think! --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 18:21, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Byzantine Chant

2009-03-16T18:20:44Z

Iliada: Talk addition

this is just my opinion but... i think the sections describing a hymn genre should be its own article, such as the kanon, because it's something that operates independently of any particular culture. byzantine chant should address the particular musical character, i.e. the melody and the performance. but this is just my opinion and i wanted to discuss here before doing anything =]
:[[User:Fedya911|Fedya]] 11:51, February 2, 2006 (CST)

: I'm very much of the opinion that this whole article needs a rewrite. It was originally a paper (as is noted) and not really an encyclopedic article. Regarding the issue you raise, while most of the poetic forms of Orthodox liturgical hymnography were designed to be performed to Byzantine chant, they've come to have an independent state to them, since the same hymns are now performed to multiple kinds of chant. Perhaps it would be best for this article to discuss mainly the music itself, noting of course that it is the original Orthodox Church music. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 12:21, February 2, 2006 (CST)

== The Chant of the Church? ==

I've heard this before, but it sounds like Hellenism to me. It is possible, in non-hellenic churches, to see an entire year through without hearing a single Byzantine melody. Gasp if you must, but the point is that the scope of the introductory paragraph seems limited to Hellenic churches (such as Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Greece, etc.), rendering non-hellenic churches with their own chant systems third-class citizens of the Orthodox musical world. I'd like to hear some opinions on this from a variety of traditions and sources. --[[User:Basil|Basil]] 12:43, March 3, 2006 (CST)

: "It is possible, in non-hellenic churches, to see an entire year through without hearing a single Byzantine melody." Particularly if one is Western Rite Orthodox.

Once I finish reading the style manual I would be willing to take an attempt at re-writing this page. In reagrds to mentioning the Kanon and such, I do not see I problem having a seperate page and mentioning it with Byzantine chant because they developed side by side. It is hard to seperate the origins of Byzantine Chant and the Kanon and Kontakion, for the music was made for the performance of these and vice-versa. --[[User:Basileus|Samuel]]

: Thanks for working on this! While I love Byzantine chant, I'm not nearly enough of an expert on it to work very well on articles pertaining to it. We welcome your contributions. —[[User:ASDamick|Dcn. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Randompage|random]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] 13:30, June 16, 2006 (CDT)

== general comment: is this discussion alive? ==

It seems, as noted by the original author, the article was written as an encyclopaedic entry. As such, it seems that it should begin with an historical overview and them move into details of the various forms and later manifestation, including its influence as the starting point for Slavic church music.

To comment regarding the seeming Hellenistic bias mentioned in an earlier post, there's no way around the fact that the first Christian hymnography is Greek. As the chant of the liturgical worship of the Eastern Empire it is primarily Greek. It enters the Syriac, Coptic, Georgian, Slavic and other language cultures via translation. Its influence is felt in the west also Discussion of these forms should be included; most definitely.

This brings me to another point. It seems that a parallel article on Byzantine Orthodox hymnography would also be in order. It is impossible to discuss Byzantine notational systems separately from hymnographical evolutions, troparion, kontakion, kanon, stichera, etc.

There is no reason why we could not go into a review of the study of Byzantine Chant in modern scholarship. Nevertheless, it seems that the starting point would be a historical overview of the hymn-forms, origins (i.e. fathers), sources (i.e. manuscript tradition, hymnbooks), the oktoechos, notational periods, influences, genera (i.e. papadic, sticheraric, heirmologic), forms (prokeimena, koinonika, ainoi, mathemata, megalynaria, etc.), theory, interpretation, etc.

If anyone is still watching this discussion I would be willing to work on some outlines for the article that might offer a good framework for a working article.

Let me know!
frcjtatmsn.com

: This sounds like a fine idea! We've been lacking the combination of both expertise and initiative to get such a set of articles going, but I would be grateful if you'd like to begin. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 12:34, March 27, 2008 (PDT)

== Notes ==
Hi everyone, do you think we should have a picture of Byzantine notes? I uploaded one, but it's not very good. Tell me what you think! --Iliada 18:20, March 16, 2009 (UTC)

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T18:18:55Z

Iliada: Adding picture

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User:Iliada

2009-03-16T18:15:52Z

Iliada: Test

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User:Iliada

2009-03-16T18:13:49Z

Iliada: Fixing error

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User talk:ASDamick

2009-03-16T18:01:25Z

Iliada: Idea

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:58:54Z

Iliada: Fixing link error

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User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:58:08Z

Iliada: Fixing link error

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User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:56:37Z

Iliada: Fixing up

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<div style="float: left; border: solid lightgrey 1px; margin: 1px;">
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User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:56:07Z

Iliada:

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[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians|{{PAGENAME}}]]

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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Translators|{{PAGENAME}}]]


<div style="float: left; border: solid lightgrey 1px; margin: 1px;">
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User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:55:49Z

Iliada: Fixing up

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[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians|{{PAGENAME}}]]

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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user enjoys [[Greek Culture]].
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
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User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:55:27Z

Iliada: Page adding

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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
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{{Babel-X|en|en-3|el-2|fr-1|}}

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:53:51Z

Iliada: Page adding

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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Translators|{{PAGENAME}}]]


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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
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{{Babel-X|en|en-3|el-2|fr-1|}}

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:52:05Z

Iliada: Page adding

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[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians|{{PAGENAME}}]]

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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Translators|{{PAGENAME}}]]


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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
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{{Babel-X|en|en-3|el-2|fr-1|}}

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:49:59Z

Iliada: Page adding

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[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians|{{PAGENAME}}]]

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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Translators|{{PAGENAME}}]]


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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
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{{Babel-X|en|en-3|el-2|fr-1|}}

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:49:37Z

Iliada: Page adding

{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians|{{PAGENAME}}]]


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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user enjoys [[Greek Culture]].
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
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{{Babel-X|en|en-3|el-2|fr-1|}}

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:48:59Z

Iliada: Adding to my page

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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians|{{PAGENAME}}]]


{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user enjoys [[Greek Culture]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" | 
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Translators|{{PAGENAME}}]]


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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
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{{Babel-X|en|en-3|el-2|fr-1|}}

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:47:13Z

Iliada: Adding to my page

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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is of [[Greece|Greek]] heritage and is [[Greek Orthodox Church|Greek Orthodox]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" | [[Image:Vladimirskaya.jpg|29px]]
|}
</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians|{{PAGENAME}}]]


{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #FFFFFF;"
| style="width: 45px; height: 45px; background: lightgrey; text-align: center; font-size: 14pt;" |[[Image:Eikonografia.jpg|33px]]
| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user enjoys [[Greek Culture]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" | 
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{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 265px; color: black; background: #40826D;"
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Translators|{{PAGENAME}}]]


<div style="float: left; border: solid lightgrey 1px; margin: 1px;">
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
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{{Babel-X|en|en-3|el-2|fr-1|}}

User:Iliada

2009-03-16T01:35:02Z

Iliada: Adding content

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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians|{{PAGENAME}}]]


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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;"|This user enjoys [[Greek Culture]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" | 
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user is a [[Translation|Translator]].
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</div>[[Category:Wikipedians in Greece|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Translators|{{PAGENAME}}]]


<div style="float: left; border: solid lightgrey 1px; margin: 1px;">
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| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user has translated the [[Iliad|Iliad]].
| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#C0C8FF;text-align:center;font-size:14pt" |
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{{Babel-X|en|en-3|el-2|fr-1|}}

Talk:Iconography

2009-03-16T00:47:15Z

Iliada: Fixing

in Greek:
εικωνογραφια
or εικονογραφια?

o-mega or o-micron?

: Omega. Check your lexicon. :) --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 11:19, 11 Mar 2005 (CST)

==Copyright==

Question. How is the copyright of an icon determined? Some of the icons are basically reproductions of ancient icons. I'm sure that those icons are governed by other national or international laws or public domain. I have noticed that some icons are copyrighted by a particular church, but why wouldn't they be copyright the iconographer. Can someone explain this?

Incidentally, I have noticed that the OCA has a number of icons. We have used them here. Recently I sent an e-mail to the OCA regarding a particular icon. I cannot find this icon for sale anywhere and wondered if they knew where it came from. They didn't know where the icon came from and believed that the icon was possibly made at the Sofrino workshops outside of Moscow.

I was told that I could always save the icon and print out a copy for framing or laminating. Is this not some kind of copyright violation or does it qualify as fair use? I know that this is an extremely common practice.

They also said that the icons they display come from parish churches, files sent by readers, books, and catalogues. If they don't know where they get the pictures from is that not a copyright problem?

[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe]] 22 Dec 2005 13:26

===Re: Icons and Copyright===
Hi Joe,

I don't claim to be an expert in this, but my impression is that icons are not copyrighted (legally, I suppose the copyright would default to the author, but ecclesiologically speaking I can't imagine this) -- but the images, photos, reprints, etc. of icons are. This is all the more the case with the ancient icons.

I think printing out a copy for personal use would definitely fall under fair use whatever the case. I can't imagine that anyone would want to stop you from that, especially if you can't buy a copy. But, for example, it wouldn't be fair to copy all of HTM's icons to your own site, because this is their livelihood. I think a lot of copyrigt law is just common sense -- although some of it can be counterintuitive... and here, with icons, were balancing an ecclesiastical culture with a certain attitude of free use (for those who use them appropriately) or corporate ownership (i.e. God and the Church). This is certainly an interesting question. I suppose there have been articles written in legal journals on similar issues. Maybe a lawyer can help us (though this is more a curiosity than an issue I'm bruningly concerned about).

As far as OCA.org is concerned, I think that as long as we have their permission to use an image from their site, I'm comfortable just citing the source. If in doubt too, we could always put "unverified" on it.

May others would want to chime in here too. Yours, {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

==RE:RE: Icons and Copywright==

Actually I do know several iconographers who have copyrights to their images. It is best to check and see if you can locate the writer if he or she is a modern one and ask permission. I don't mind people using my work for chuch bulletins and so forth. But if a person or a church is trying to make money off of reproductions of a living iconographers work, then you have a problem. It's not that iconographers mind the work being used for prayer and such, but if other people are attempting to make money of what you are doing, it can make a hard life even harder. That is why a lot of modern iconographers do copyright their images. It is a careful balance of doing work for the glory of God, but having to make a living off of it (which is difficult}. All icons are built upon the work of God essentially and the best icons are still sums of all the previous writers. I don't think copyrighted the image is a way of negating this. But in modern times when someone can photocopy your work so easily, and try to profit from it, you have to ask whether they are trying to spread icons, or trying to make money off of it even though they didn't do any work. Supporting the current icon writers by buying an icon from them or one of their reproductions ensures that we will continue to have people willing and able to make icons. On the otherhand, finding a beautiful icon and being unable to locate a copy, well I'm sure that in the end, money and copyright issues aside, the most important thing is worship and veneration, and no iconographer would probably be unhappy to know you venerate with a copy of his or her work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Frogmanman|Frogmanman]] ([[User talk:Frogmanman|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Frogmanman|contribs]]) 23 Dec 2007.

== Various Iconographers - for a future article ==

Following is a list of "iconographers" (as I remember them) that can be used to develop an article (when more information is available):
* Theophanes the Greek - "Theotokos of the Don", 14th Century
* Nikita Pavlovets - Theotokos in the Enclosed Garden, 17th Cenutry
* Radul of Serbia - Ss. Kosmas and Damianos, 1673
* Nicholas Ritzos (15th Cenutry)
* Ioannis Kornaros, Cretan iconographer who painted the portable icon of “Megas i Kirie” (''Lord, Thou Art Great'') of 1770 at Moni Toplou (West of Siteia, Lasithi of Crete).
* Frangos Katelanos (sp?) - Christ the Pantocrator, 1548 (Balkans)
* Andrei Rublev - Christ the Redeemer, 1409 (Russian)
* Simon Ushakov - Christ 'Not Painted by Human Hands', 1657 (Russian)

== Tips concerning the Nine Choirs of Angels & authoring the icons of Angels ==

This is excerpt is from p18 of The Painter's Manual of Dionysus of Fourna as translated by Paul Hetherington, it was posted on an Orthodox thread [http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5324 1] by a "Mary Halloran Snyder" who is studying iconography and is using this material as part of her Iconography research materials. It answers a lot of icon related questions on how to "author" the angels:

:There are nine choirs of Angels as shown by Dionysus the Areopagite, and they are divided into three orders.

:The First Order Thrones, Cherubim, Seraphim. Thrones are represented as fiery wheels with wings all around and with eyes in the wings, they are all entertwined in the form of a king's throne. Cherubim have one head only and two wings. Seraphim have six wings of which two cover their faces, and two their feet and the other two as if spread for flight; in their hands each has a fan on which are these words; "Holy Holy Holy" it was like this that the prophet Isaiah saw them. The tetramorphs are represented thus: they have six wings and upon their heads each have a crown, they have the faces of angels, and they hold the Gospels before their breasts with both hands. Between the two wings above their heads there is an eagle, while there is a lion between the wings on their right, and an ox between those on their left. These animals look up and hold the Gospels their their feet. They appeared thus to the prophet Ezekiel.

:The Second Order that is to say, rank -- Dominations, Powers, Virtues. These are represented wearing robes down to their feet, with girdles and greenish gold stoles, and holding golden rods in their right hands and in their left a seal with this sign (a circle with an x in it)

:The Third Order -- Principalities, Archangels, Angels. These are represented wearing soldier's clothes with golden girdles. They hold spears in their hands of which the tops are pointed and have blades like axe heads."

Can we incorporate this information into the "iconography article" in any way before it is lost into the nothing land? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 00:30, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

: I don't really see how detailed instructions on how to paint icons is really appropriate for an encyclopedia article. OW isn't a how-to manual. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:02, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::and OW Users are not robots with a PHD in everything intellectual ... I propose a rewording of your response:
:::''Thank you for this information. Unfortunately it is not strictly ''encyclopedic'' rather it is more ''instructional'' in its nature ... However, keep up the good work - I notice you make a genuine effort to contribute to OW! Signed ASDamick!''
::Merry Christmas dear Father Andrew .... Signed (your worst nightmare - lol) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 02:40, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::: Silly Vasiliki—never propose a "rewording" to someone with a degree in English literature. Such people are incapable of receiving such hard sayings. I meant what I said and wrote it as I meant to.

:::: That is definately me .. silly :) As a person who does not have a degree in English literature that is exactly why I CAN propose a rewording because I am not bound by rules that I dont know about anyway (Do-Ya get me?) [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:10, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

::: As to being my "worst nightmare," well... let us just say that you will have to try much harder if that's your aspiration. —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 02:50, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

:::: Well, like we said above I am a "literary" Fool-for-Christ ... errm (correction) I aspire to literally be a Fool-for-Christ (not a "worst nightmare") [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 03:10, December 19, 2008 (UTC)

== Written or Painted? ==
AS it has been determined, icons are written, not painted. So, the caption under the Apostle Luke "painting" the first icon should be changed to WRITING. Thanks, --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 02:10, March 15, 2009 (UTC)

: Determined? By whom? —[[User:ASDamick|Fr. Andrew]] [[User_talk:ASDamick|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|contribs]] ('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''') 20:49, March 15, 2009 (UTC)

== Written or painted? ==
Well, icons, as you know, are more than just religious art. These "windows to heaven" depict the very men and women who have achieved theosis. They were made for the illiterate. St. John of Damascus said, "What the book does for those who understand letters, the image does for the illiterate." As the scriptures are written, so are icons, as they teach us in a similar manner of the Bible. (I am participating in the St. John Chrysostom Oratorical Festival, and my topic is about icons, that's where I get all of my information). --[[User:Iliada|Iliada]] 00:47, March 16, 2009 (UTC)