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		<title>OrthodoxWiki - User contributions [en]</title>
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		<updated>2026-06-11T07:52:57Z</updated>
		<subtitle>User contributions</subtitle>
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	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=129450</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=129450"/>
				<updated>2021-02-12T00:02:57Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: Major updates owing to the passage of time&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|right|thumb|In Vienna, VA, 2014.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is '''Anastasios Hudson'''.  I currently live in Reston, Virginia, where I work as a business resiliency analyst. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From 2002-2005, I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary, in Yonkers, New York. I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America.'' In 2014, I self-published a revised version of my thesis under the same title. It is available for sale on Amazon.com in both hardcover and eBook versions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Between New York and Virginia, I spent many years living in Raleigh, North Carolina, where I was part of several missionary endeavors.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians (GOC), also known as the Greek Old Calendarist Church, and my diocesan bishop is His Eminence Metropolitan Demetrius of America. I attend St. Nicholas of Myra Orthodox Church in Upper Marlboro, Maryland, under the pastorship of the Reverend Fr. George Psaromatis. I should note that any and all of my writings are my sole responsibility, and I am responsible for any errors contained therein.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net OrthodoxChristianity.net], which I co-founded on May 12, 2002. It is the oldest Orthodox forum of its kind still active, and indeed the largest; while forums in general have waned in popularity owing to the rise of social media, there is still a strong commitment to and participation in online forums as they allow a method of communication that is far superior to and thoughtful than Facebook threads, for instance.&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
You can find many of my writings online at my website, listed below. As of the present (February 2021), it has been inactive for over five years owing to personal circumstances, but I do hope to begin publishing again at some point this year.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Contact Info'''&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;[http://www.anastasioshudson.com AnastasiosHudson.com], my personal website with 180+ original articles&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Email: anastasios@anastasioshudson.com&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=118864</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=118864"/>
				<updated>2014-05-22T01:17:35Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|right|thumb|In Vienna, VA, 2014.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is '''Anastasios Hudson'''.  I live in Reston, VA and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5, and Raleigh, NC.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while living in New York.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net OrthodoxChristianity.net], which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I served as a priest from 2008-2013, before resigning for personal reasons.&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
I am an aspiring Orthodox author, freelance writer, and speaker.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Contact Info'''&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;[http://www.anastasioshudson.com AnastasioHudson.com], my personal website with 160+ original articles&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Email: anastasios@anastasioshudson.com&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;AIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;YahooIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;diff=118863</id>
		<title>File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;diff=118863"/>
				<updated>2014-05-22T01:16:03Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: uploaded a new version of &amp;amp;quot;File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
This is a picture of me taken in Greenville, NC in 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Copyright status ==&lt;br /&gt;
{{limited}}&lt;br /&gt;
== Source ==&lt;br /&gt;
My own camera.&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Images]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=118862</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=118862"/>
				<updated>2014-05-22T01:14:06Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: Edited to reflect my return to the lay state and my personal website.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|right|thumb|In Greenville, NC, 2008.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is '''Anastasios Hudson'''.  I live in Reston, VA and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5, and Raleigh, NC.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while living in New York.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net OrthodoxChristianity.net], which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I served as a priest from 2008-2013, before resigning for personal reasons.&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
I am an aspiring Orthodox author, freelance writer, and speaker.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Contact Info'''&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;[http://www.anastasioshudson.com AnastasioHudson.com], my personal website with 160+ original articles&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Email: anastasios@anastasioshudson.com&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;AIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;YahooIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Russian_True_Orthodox_Church_(Raphaelites)&amp;diff=118428</id>
		<title>Russian True Orthodox Church (Raphaelites)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Russian_True_Orthodox_Church_(Raphaelites)&amp;diff=118428"/>
				<updated>2014-03-24T02:47:43Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: I removed the &amp;quot;Template: Old Calendar&amp;quot; because this article is clearly NOT from an Old Calendarist perspective. It is from a &amp;quot;Mainstream&amp;quot; Eastern Orthodox perspective and critical of this group.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''True Orthodox Church in Russia''' ('''TOCR''') is one of the many non-canonical religious dissident organizations headed by Mr.  Леонид Семёнович Мотовилов (Leonid Semionovich Motovilov - former Colonel of KGB).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
According to some information about the 1996 Raphael (Procopius) entered in the jurisdiction of the &amp;quot;Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church under Patriarch Dimitri Yarema&amp;quot;, where he was ordained &amp;quot;bishop of the Krasnoyarsk&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
December 19, 1996 with Adrian (old), Baruch and Sergius (Sarkisov) took part in the coronation in Noginsk '''&amp;quot;Emperor Nicholas III&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
'''&lt;br /&gt;
The history of the RUSSIAN TRUE ORTHODOX CHURCH begins in 1997, when there was disagreement between the head of RUSSIAN TRUE ORTHODOX CHURCH Iohan, which was part of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church-Patriarchate of Kiev (under the Omophor of Patriarch Demetrios Yarema), and the other bishops.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These differences resulted from the decisions of the Council of Bishops June 26, 1997. Bishop Joan of Modzalevsk was defrocked from the priesthood. The refusal of the Patriarch Demetrios (Yarema) to support the solutions the Council of RUSSIAN TRUE ORTHODOX CHURCH caused the breakdown of communion between the UAOC-KP and RTOC and the creation of an independent jurisdiction of the RUSSIAN TRUE ORTHODOX CHURCH. In the same year, the church accepted a group headed by Raphael (Prokopyev). He was bishop of &amp;quot;we don't know that church&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
All previous ordinations of this group were invalid and Raphael was first ordained priest and later a bishop. &lt;br /&gt;
'''In September 21, 1997''' his re-ordination was attended by &amp;quot;Metropolitan Krutitskii&amp;quot; Ambrose (Katamadzeh), &amp;quot;Archbishop of Dmitrov&amp;quot; Stefan (Linitsky) and &amp;quot;bishop Gaynatsky and Imertinsky&amp;quot; Moses (Hodzhava) as bishop of Volokolamsk.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On February 25, 1998, Moscow hosted the Council of Bishops of the TRUE ORTHODOX CHURCHES, which was attended by Bishops previously separated from the Free Russian Orthodox Church (they were outside of any jurisdiction).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These &amp;quot;bishops&amp;quot; expressed their desire to enter communion with RUSSIAN TRUE ORTHODOX CHURCH, entering into its structure with their dioceses, clergy and congregation. Bishops of the RUSSIAN TRUE ORTHODOX CHURCH accepted them and included both structures in one Holy Synod of the RTOC.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Meanwhile, the Synod of the RUSSIAN TRUE ORTHODOX CHURCH was rocked by growing contradictions. In late 1998, the controversy resulted in a split, and Ambrose was taken out from the Synod, and in January 22, 1999 was defrocked from the priesthood.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After this an alternative synod of the Russian True Orthodox Church was created with Bishop Tikhon and Nazariy. At the same time, the main Synod of RTOC began to receive reports that Bishop Raphael had not fulfilled his promise to align his activities in accordance with the teachings of the church. The Holy Synod considered the possibility to condemn him for heresy. On March 13, 1999 he was removed from office and on November 27 1999 deprived &amp;quot;episcopal&amp;quot; dignity for violation of church canons and training extrasensory. The condemned Bishop Raphael, with Bishop Sergius Moyseenko, created the alternative Synod of the True Orthodox Church in Russia (TOCiR) without any blessing or Tomos from his mother Church. '''The Russian True Orthodox Church pubblished an anathema to those who received him into the Church Mr. Leonid Semionovich. He was defroked and anathematized for practicing magic, astrology and occultism.'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Not recognizing his deposition, “metropolitan” Raphael '''Leonid Semenovich Motovilov proclaimed himself Metropolitan with the title of &amp;quot;His Beatitude Metropolitan of Moscow, the keeper of the door of the Holy Sepulchre&amp;quot;'''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In July 2003, organized a &amp;quot;Unity Council of Bishops of the Genuine Orthodox Church in Russia,&amp;quot; which resulted in the unification of marginal non canonical formations in the &amp;quot;Free Russian Orthodox Church&amp;quot;. The &amp;quot;Primate&amp;quot; of the new uncanonical religious organizations, was elected &amp;quot;Metropolitan of Moscow&amp;quot; Raphael (Procopius) with the title of &amp;quot;Patriarchal Locum Tenens&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
His Holiness Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow in December 2003, clearly said thar this is clear heresy. Here, there is another well-organized and udavshayasya provocation occultists, which plays a significant role Rafailovskaya T.O.C.. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2005, he changed his title to &amp;quot;Archbishop of Moscow, Metropolitan of All-Russia&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The decision of the third session of the &amp;quot;Local Council of the True Orthodox Church&amp;quot; from June 24, 2005, was elected First Hierarch of the True Orthodox Church, with the title &amp;quot;His Holiness the Archbishop Metropolitan of Moscow All-Russian.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
This position claims successions from Nicholas II Motovilova, who was a witness to the life of St. Seraphim of Sarov. In the middle of 2009 the primate changed his name to be referred to as Motovilov. Together with the new title he changed the name to that of his sons - Sergei and Anton.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now the True Orthodox Church in Russia is in &amp;quot;full communion&amp;quot; with Angelos of Avlona (Greece) and &amp;quot;Metropolitan&amp;quot; John Lobue of New York&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''On July 12 2011''', the &amp;quot;Metropolitan&amp;quot; Raphael enter in full-communion with Metropolitan John (Lobue) of New York, Head of the [[Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles]] - [[Holy Synod of Milan]] and with Metropolitan Angelos of Avlonos Greek Church - TOC Calendar of the Fathers, not telling the truth.  - The truth is that Mr. Leonid selfcalled &amp;quot;Metropolitan&amp;quot; Raphael, has not &amp;quot;episcopate&amp;quot; according to the old calendar of the Orthodox Church. Mr. Leonid received the &amp;quot;episcopate&amp;quot; from Patriarcha [[Dimitrios (Yarema)]] that it has received it from bishops consecrated by the Patriarch Mstyslav and Anthony (Scherba) of Hierapolis of the [[Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA]] -  (Patriarchate of Constantinople) (Demetrios was recived as a priest of the Moscow Patriarchate - Both Bishops were enshrined according with the T.O.C. ecclesiology, in the so-called &amp;quot;segianist&amp;quot; line  of Metropolitan Dionysius of Poland and have always received by Ecumenical Patriarch Demetrios and Bartholomew of Constantinople, the Holy Myron . In addition to being void the episcopate of Mr. Leonid (according to the ecclesiology old Calendarist ), he has also been deposed and anathematized in 1999 - The Greek Church of the Old Calendar (Angelos) was hopelessly compromised with a group of self-styled bishops, beyond any logic of Orthodoxy.&lt;br /&gt;
This line is officializated by Mr. Leonid in his wen site[http://ovcdipc.blogspot.it/2013/06/blog-post_8781.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''24 January 2012''' Anghelos of Avlonos, '''withdraw the Tomos of communion''' with Metropolitan Evloghios from the web site of Raphaelites to be in talks with the Moscow Patriarchate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''On 30 August 2012''' Bishop Onofrio, former bishop of the Synod of Milan, comes into full communion with the Raphaelit Angelos of Avlonos, automatically excommunicated according to the sacred canons.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''On 2 September 2012''', the former Bishop of Bergamo Onofrio, formalizes the union with [Raphaelites][http://athanasiospress.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/berastau-a-a-cave-orthodox-sorcerers-who-are-they/]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Holy_Synod_in_Resistance&amp;diff=118417</id>
		<title>Holy Synod in Resistance</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Holy_Synod_in_Resistance&amp;diff=118417"/>
				<updated>2014-03-20T22:22:46Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: Synod in Resistance no longer exists; it united with the Old Calendarist Church under Archbishop Kallinikos&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Orthodox Church of Greece - Holy Synod in Resistance''', also called the '''Cyprianites''', were a resisting, [[Old Calendarists|Old Calendar]] synod which were separate from the New Calendar [[Church of Greece]], regarding the latter as being in error.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== History ==&lt;br /&gt;
In 1979, a [[schism]] occurred in the Synod of the [[Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece]] (GOC), or the &amp;quot;Florinites.&amp;quot; Metropolitan [[Callistos of Corinth]] and Metropolitan Anthony of Megara had become dissatisfied with the administration of Archbishop Auxentius, who had irregularly received priests from New Calendar jurisdictions with questionable reputations. Callistos and Anthony [[ordination|ordained]] eight other [[bishop]]s, declared Auxentius to be deposed, and registered their synod as the [[Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece]] (GOC, so-called &amp;quot;Kallistiakoi&amp;quot;, or Callistites).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1980, the synod entered into communion with the Synod of the [[Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Romania]]. However, in 1983 the synod disintegrated.  Metropolitan Callistos quit the Synod because of a disagreement on the question of grace in New Calendarist sacraments, Bishop Maximos of Magnesia and two others returned to the Synod of the True Orthodox Church of Greece under Archbishop Auxentios. The rest, Matthew of Oinois, Kalliopios of Pentapolis, and Kallinikos of Achaia, returned to the synod in 1985 under the presidency of Metropolitan Gerontios of Peiraeus, after the first removal of Archbishop Auxentios.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Two members of the disintegrated synod, Bishops [[Cyprian of Fili]] and Giovanni of Sicily, organized the Holy Synod in Resistance.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ecclesiology ==&lt;br /&gt;
Unlike the other [[Old Calendarists|Old Calendarist]] Greek jurisdictions, the Holy Synod in Resistance had a markedly distinct [[ecclesiology]].  While opposed to [[ecumenism]] and the [[New Calendar]], the synod maintained that the 1974 declaration was an error and that the [[Church of Greece]] and other [[New Calendar]] jurisdictions have grace, despite the [[anathema]] against the [[New Calendar]] issued in the [[Sigillion of 1583]]. To support this view, the synod points to the views expressed by the father of Greek Old-Calendarism, Metropolitan [[Chrysostomos of Florina]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Status==&lt;br /&gt;
From 1994 to early 2006, the synod was in full communion with the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] (ROCOR), though relations cooled as negotiations took place between ROCOR and the [[Church of Russia]].  In February 2006, the synod severed communion with the ROCOR.  The synod continues to maintain communion with the [[Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Romania]] (Synod of Metropolitan Vlasie). In 1993, the Synod ordained, and maintains communion with, Bishop Photii of the [[Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Bulgaria]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On 17 November 2007 the Synod published the [http://ruschurchabroad.com/eng071116.pdf &amp;quot;Memorandum Regarding Principles of Coöperation Between the Greek and Russian Anti-Ecumenists&amp;quot;], which defined its relationship with the self-proclaimed &amp;quot;Provisional Supreme Ecclesiastical Authority of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad&amp;quot; [http://ruschurchabroad.com/engindex.htm] under Bishop [[Agafangel (Pashkovsky) of Odessa|Agafangel]], who had departed from the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia]] over its union with the Moscow Patriarchate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Structure==&lt;br /&gt;
The synod had five [[diocese]]s, including the Metropolis of Oropos and Fili, the Archdiocese of Etna (California), the Diocese of Sydney and New South Wales, the Diocese of Nora (Italy), and the Diocese of Luni (Italy).  There were also missions in Austria, Sweden, Italy, Czech Republic, Georgia, South Ossetia, Kenya, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Republic of the Congo, [[Uganda]], the United Kingdom and South Africa.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Serving and praying in the synod's parishes, missions, and monasteries were 74 [[priest]]s (including 17 [[hieromonk]]s and 57 married priests), 15 [[deacon]]s, 43 [[monk]]s and 60 nuns.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There was also one publication house, the [http://www.ctosonline.org Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Dissolution==&lt;br /&gt;
On March 5, 2014, after several years of dialogue, the Synod in Resistance united itself to the [[Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece]] and formally ceased to exist.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.synodinresistance.org/EAnakIstosEnosis.pdf&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links ==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/ Official Website]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.ctosonline.org Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies (Etna, CA)]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.conventofsaintelizabeth.org/ Convent of Saint Elizabeth the New Martyr (Etna, CA)]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.saintedwardbrotherhood.org/ The Saint Edward Brotherhood (Brookwood, Surrey, UK)]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Hierarchs ===&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/CyprianOF.html Cyprian, Metropolitan of Oropos and Fili, President of the Holy Synod in Resistance]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/ChrysostomosEtna.html Chrysostomos, Archbishop of Etna (California), Member of the Synod]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/ChrysostomosSydney.html Chrysostomos, Bishop of Sydney and New South Wales, Member of the Synod]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/MichaelNora.html Michael, Bishop of Nora (Sardinia), Member of the Synod]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/SilvanoLuni.html Silvano, Bishop of Luni (Italy), Member of the Synod]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/GeorgeAlania.html George, Bishop of Alania]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/ChrysostomosChristianoupolis.html Chrysostomos, Bishop of Christianoupolis]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/AuxentiosPhotiki.html Auxentios, Bishop of Photiki]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/AmbroseMethoni.html Ambrose, Bishop of Methone]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/JohannesMakarioupolis.html Johannes, Bishop of Makarioupolis, Assistant for Missions in Sweden]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category: Schisms]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[fr:Église orthodoxe de Grèce - Saint Synode en résistance]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=93253</id>
		<title>Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=93253"/>
				<updated>2010-05-31T19:36:18Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: Removed Nicholas Stanosheck as contact for EuphrosynosCafe.com as he gave it up in Nov 2008.&lt;/p&gt;
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'''Old Calendarists''' are small separatist communities formed in Greece, Romania, Cyprus, Bulgaria and elsewhere after the adoption of the Revised Julian liturgical calendar (which is essentially the Gregorian calendar combined with the Orthodox Paschalion) in the early 20th century. Citing the 16th century anathemas against the Gregorian calendar issued by three endemousa (or &amp;quot;Patriarchal&amp;quot;) synods in Constantinople, as well as various condemnations by multiple local synods, they have become some of the most vocal critics not only of the new liturgical calendar, but of [[ecumenism]] in general, which is seen as the ultimate cause of the calendar revision.&lt;br /&gt;
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Some have erroneously categorized multiple separatist movements in Russia and elsewhere as &amp;quot;Old Calendarist&amp;quot; on the basis of their opposition to ecumenism and modernism. However, these groups (usually referred to as True or Genuine Orthodox Churches) are not strictly speaking Old Calendarists, since their separation from their respective national churches is not the result of disputes over the liturgical calendar.&lt;br /&gt;
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==History==&lt;br /&gt;
In response to various currents within Protestantism to In 1920, the Patriarchal Locum Tenens, Dorotheus of Prusa, issued the Encyclical &amp;quot;Unto the Churches of Christ Everywhere&amp;quot;[http://incommunion.org/?p=142], which officially marked the entrance of Orthodox participation in the Ecumenical Movement. (See [[Ecumenism]].) The Encyclical, tied to the formation of the League of Nations and with that end in mind, gave eleven suggestions so &amp;quot;''that above all, love should be rekindled and strengthened among the churches, so that they should no more consider one another as strangers and foreigners, but as relatives, and as being a part of the household of Christ and “fellow heirs, members of the same body and partakers of the promise of God in Christ” (Eph. 3:6).''&amp;quot;  (par. 6.) The first of the suggestions was &amp;quot;''By the acceptance of a uniform calendar for the celebration of the great Christian feasts at the same time by all the churches.''&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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In 1921, a council was called in Athens, led by Metropolitan [[Germanos of Demetrias]], the Vice-President of the Holy Synod, deposing Archbishop [[Meletios_IV_(Metaxakis)_of_Constantinople|Meletios (Metaxakis)]] of Athens, who had previously known for ecumenical activity, for recognizing the revolutionary Venizelos government in Greece[http://orthodoxwiki.org/Meletios_IV_(Metaxakis)_of_Constantinople#Archbishop_of_Athens].  In a bizzare twist, Meletios was recognized as Patriarch of Constantinople on November 21, 1921, where he began his programs anew, though previously his candidacy was declined by the Holy Synod of Constantinople in 1912. &lt;br /&gt;
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In 1923, a &amp;quot;Pan-Orthodox Congress&amp;quot; was held under the presidency of Meletios which comprised members-- six Bishops, two laymen, and an archimandrite-- of a few of the local Churches (none of the members of the Pentarchy save Constantinople sent representatives). [[Anastasy (Gribanovsky) of Kishinev|Metropolitan Anastassy]] of the Russian Church Abroad attended its initial meeting, having been in the area, declared that the Synod had given him no instructions on the matter, and soon departed. In total, less than half of the local Churches were represented by so much as a layman. (see [http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/photii_2.aspx Bishop Photii of Triaditsa, &amp;quot;The 70th Anniversary of the Pan-Orthodox Congress&amp;quot;, Orthodox Life, 1&amp;amp;2, 1994]). The purpose of the meeting was to implement the suggestions of the 1920 document, along with other uncanonical changes which were largely rejected, such as the elevation of married men to the Episcopate and the remarriage of widowed priests (sessions three and four). Finally, the Anglicans were present at the final meetings in the person of former Bishop Gore of Oxford, where it was decided that nothing stood in the way of reunion. In response, a five-member commission in Greece (of whom then Archimandrite-- and later Archbishop-- Chrysostom Papadopolous of Athens) determined to study the question of the use of the New Calendar and determined &amp;quot;''Not a single one of them [local Orthodox Churches] can separate from the others and adopt the New Calendar without becoming schismatic in relation to the others.''&amp;quot; (''Journal of the Government of the Greek Kingdom'', chapter 1, 24/25. 1. 1923, No. 8, see also ''OEM'', 1989, Chapter 17, p. 73, as noted in [http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/photii_2.aspx Bishop Photii].)&lt;br /&gt;
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===Greece===&lt;br /&gt;
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====The True Orthodox Church of Greece====&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:1925cr1.jpg|thumb|110px|An artist's rendering of the appearance of the Sign of the Cross near Athens, 1925]]&lt;br /&gt;
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In 1924, the [[bishop]]s of the [[Church of Greece]], under Archbishop Chrysostom (Papadopolous), implemented the calendar change discussed at the pan-Orthodox congress of 1923. In response, Metropolitan [[Germanos of Demetrias]], retired in protest. Lay groups and [[brotherhoods]] formed to keep the use of the [[Julian calendar]] alive, despite state persecution (Greece was an Orthodox country, and the Church enjoyed certain privileges from the state).  &lt;br /&gt;
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In 1925, perhaps the most well-known phenomenon in the Old Calendar movement occurred: a large cross over an secret Old Calendar Church in 1925 during the feast of the exaltation of the Holy Cross, witnessed by approximately two thousand people, including police intent on arresting the clergy of the group, many of whom converted that night.[http://www.orthodox.net/articles/cross-in-athens.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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In 1935, after more than 10 years, three Metropolitans, Germanos of Demetrias, the former Metropolitan of Florina, Chrysostom (Kavouridis) and Chrysostomos (Demetriou) of Zakynthos declared the Archbishop of Athens as schismatic and declared: &lt;br /&gt;
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''&amp;quot;Those who now administer the Church of Greece have divided the unity of Orthodoxy through the calendar innovation, and have split the Greek Orthodox People into two opposing calendar parts. They have not only violated an Ecclesiastical Tradition which was consecrated by the Seven Ecumenical Councils and sanctioned by the age-old practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but have also touched the Dogma of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Therefore those who now administer the Greek Church have, by their unilateral, anticanonical and unthinking introduction of the Gregorian calendar, cut themselves off completely from the trunk of Orthodoxy, and have declared themselves to be in essence schismatics in relation to the Orthodox Churches which stand on the foundation of the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the Orthodox laws and Traditions, the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, Serbia, Poland, the Holy Mountain and the God-trodden Mountain of Sinai, etc....That this is so was confirmed by the Commission made up of the best jurists and theologian-professors of the National University which was appointed to study the calendar question, and one of whose members happened to be his Blessedness the Archbishop of Athens in his then capacity as professor of Church History in the National University...Since his Beatitude the Archbishop of Athens has by his own signature declared himself to be a Schismatic, what need do we have of witnesses to demonstrate that he and the hierarchs who think like him have become Schismatics, in that they have split the unity of Orthodoxy through the calendar innovation and divided the Ecclesiastical and ethnic soul of the Greek Orthodox People?&amp;quot;'' ([http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/downloads/92_NEW_ZION_IN_BABYLON_PART_3.pdf Cited in Moss, ''New Zion in Babylon'', Part 3, p. 92])&lt;br /&gt;
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From April 23rd to April 26th 1935 the ordination of four new bishops took place. Ordained were the Archmandrites: Germanos (Barikopoulos) as Bishop of Kyklades, Christoforos (Hatzis) as Bishop of Megaris, Polycarp (Liosis) as Bishop of Diavleia, and Bishop Matthew (Karpathakes) of Bresthena).[http://www.hotca.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;amp;view=article&amp;amp;id=71:the-change-in-the-calendar-of-the-church-of-greece&amp;amp;catid=23:goc-history&amp;amp;Itemid=71]&lt;br /&gt;
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====The Florinite/Matthewite schism====&lt;br /&gt;
By the 1940s, two parties had formed within the Church of Greece: the [[Florinites]] (under Metropolitan [[Chrysostom (Kavourides) of Florina]]) and the [[Matthewites]] (under Bp. [[Matthew of Bresthena]]). The issue had been the former's vacillation on whether the mysteries of the State Church were still grace-filled. Both sides had their respective justifications for their positions, and both were violently persecuted by the state. The Matthewites were holding a more consistently applied position, but were accused of ignoring the existence of flexibility within the Church's tradition. That they labelled the Florinites as a whole as opportunists who were trying to ingratiate themselves with the state was unfortunate, and not altogether true for the followers of Metropolitan Chrysostom, and so the parties became psychologically distinct.&lt;br /&gt;
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In the end, a real physical division was formed, whereas a real doctrinal division ended: Bishop Matthew singlehandedly consecrated another bishop, and together they made more new bishops. After the death of Bishop Matthew, however, Chrysostom of Florina reaffirmed the decision of 1935 declaring the New Calendar State Church as [[schism]]atic. Two basic motivations have been given, neither of which has been universally accepted for why this was done: (1) ''Political''-- That the move was primarily political to stop any growth among the Matthewites and (2) ''Irenic''-- the more commonly accepted, that he did so in the hope of uniting all the True Orthodox Greeks into one jurisdiction. In any case, the Matthewites proceeded to elect Archbishop Agathagelos to the rank of Primate of Athens in 1958.&lt;br /&gt;
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We will deal first with the major divisions of the Florinites, since their divisions have generally been larger and more permanent in nature, and then the Matthewites.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Divisions within the Florinites====&lt;br /&gt;
After the death of Metropolitan Chrysostom, the Florinites had no bishops, and Metropolitan Chrysostom advised his flock to go under the protection of the Matthewite bishops. Fearing the repercussions, however, the Florinites opted to seek a new hierarchy and appealed to Bishops of the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] to help them. In 1960, Archimandrite Akakios Pappas was made a bishop with the title of Bishop of Talantion for these communities without the official blessing of the ROCOR Synod by [http://www.roca.org/life_of_archbishop_seraphim.htm Archbishop Seraphim of Chicago] and Bp. Theophilos Ionescu, a Romanian New Calendar Bishop under the ROCOR. The following year, the ROCOR elected and ordained Archimandrite Petros Astyfides as Bishop of Astoria in order to serve as archpastor of the Greek Old Calendarist immigrant communities in the United States and Canada. Later Bp. Akakios of Talantion and Archbishop Leonty of Chile (ROCOR) ordained five more bishops in Greece. Thus in 1961, Akakios of Talantion became the new First-Hierarch of the restored Florinite Synod. He died, however, in 1963. The Synod thus proceeded to elect Auxentios Pastras, Bishop of Gardikion, to be their new leader as Archbishop of Athens. The ROCOR under Metropolitan Philaret eventually recognized the validity of the secret consecrations in 1969.&lt;br /&gt;
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All of the current divisions of the Florinites come from one of the groups below:&lt;br /&gt;
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'''The Auxentios Synod''':  The First Florinite Synod of the True Orthodox Church of Greece was fraught with problems by the 1970s, and two major separations occurred during the lifetime of Archbishop Auxentios. However, few doubt that Archbishop Auxentios himself was of a saintly character, albeit a poor bishop. Recently there have been attempts to rehabilitate his memory (Archbishop Auxentios died in 1994); most of his synod, barely held together by the 1980s, dissolved after his death into the three jurisdictions listed below. In 1986, Auxentios was removed  from the Archdiocese of Athens and the leadership of the Old Calendar Church of Greece by a majority the Florinite bishops on account of a series of controversial episcopal ordinations conducted in the early 1980s with his apparent consent. Having the support of the dissenting minority of bishops, Auxentios proceeded to re-form his Synod, appealing for help to the [[Holy Synod of Milan|Bishops of the West]], then independent, but under his omophor, for assistance.  He died in 1994, having failed to reconcile with the parishes of the Florinite Synod under Chrysostom Kiousis. The remaining parishes of the Auxentios Synod, however, elected Archbishop Maximos of Kephalonia to the throne of Athens on [[January 7]], 1995. In response to Maximos' request to revisit the ROCOR investigation of Fr Panteleimon (Metropoulos) of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Boston, the parishes loyal to Auxentios under the American Bishops organized around Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Boston (see HOCNA), left the Synod, and elected Makarios of Toronto as locum tenens of the see of Athens. &lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Florinite)|The Chrysostomite Synod]]''': Amidst charges of maladministration, the majority of the Florinite synod chose in 1986 a new leader in Archbishop Chrysostom (Kiousis), who demonstrated rather effectively that the True Orthodox in Greece were a force to be reckoned with. Choosing to take on the Greek legal system, court cases were held where it was demonstrated that the Old Calendarists of Greece were not schismatics. Though their public reputation had been tarnished over nearly two decades of divisions, their legal existence was, and is presently, safe. The synod of Chrysostom of Athens is today the largest synod of the True Orthodox Church of Greece.&lt;br /&gt;
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'''The [[Holy Synod in Resistance|Synod-in-Resistance]] of Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili''':  While this church's official [[ecclesiology]] is peculiar, the amount of work that Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili and his synod have done to assist True Orthodox throughout the world is impressive, and must be noted. The church itself is rather small, but has been very effective in presenting intellectual arguments against the New Calendar State Church. It is headed by another defector from the Auxentios Synod, Cyprian (Koutsoumbas) of Fili, and holds an ecclesiology of “sick&amp;quot; and “healthy&amp;quot; churches, thus avoiding the repercussions that inevitably follow referring to the majority as subject to a schismatic body. Their ecclesiology is considered heretical by some of the more rigorist elements of the True Orthodox, although they were only officially condemned on an ecclesiological basis by the Synod under Archbishop Chrysostom of Athens.&lt;br /&gt;
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In 2008, the two bodies met for a number of high-profile meetings in the hope of developing closer ties.[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/E1a4028AnakoinosisDialogoy2-08.pdf]&lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Lamian Synod)|The Synod of Archbishop Makarios of Athens (Lamian Synod)]]''': In 1995, a resistance faction of six bishops formed within the synod of Chrysostom (Kiousis) and separated itself over what they claimed to be a series of canonical infractions, headed by Metropolitan Kallinikos of Lamia. The charges related to the trial of Metropolitan of Thessaloniki Euthymios (Orphanos), who had been charged with moral infractions, and the election of Bishop Vikentios (Malamatenios) of Avlona as Metropolitan of Peiraeus. By early 1997, the bishops headed by Kallinikos of Lamia had fragmented into three groups, one of which reconciled with Archbishop Chrysostom (Kiousis). A second group, Paisios Loulourgas (Met. of America) and Vikentios Malamatenios (titular Bp. of Avlona), submitted to the Ecumenical Patiarchate. Later that same year, Kallinikos of Lamia and Euthymios of Thessaloniki proceeded to ordain five [[bishop|titular bishop]]s in an attempt to create a new synod. In 2003, they finally decided to elect a primate, and elected Makarios (Kavakides) of Athens.  A good deal of their membership was then lost, as many who did not see themselves as separate from the Kiousis synod were forced to decide between the two.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Divisions within the Matthewites====&lt;br /&gt;
For all the negative press the Matthewites have received over the years due to the strictness of their position, their church has been strangely free from long lasting schisms. Only two separations are worthy of note from the main body, and while they had the potential to destroy the unity that exists within the Matthewite True Orthodox Church of Greece, they did not.&lt;br /&gt;
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The first Primate of Athens selected by the Matthewites was Agathangelos of Athens, who reposed in 1967.  Andreas of Athens, one of the original three bishops made, was elected to the primacy in 1972; unitl his death in 2005 he was one of the oldest and longest-reigning of Orthodox bishops in the world.&lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[True Orthodox Church of Greece (Matthewite)|The Synod of Archbishop Nicholas]]''': In February, 2003, Archbishop Andreas of Athens retired, and Archbishop Nicholas of Athens, considered by many to have a progressive vision for the Matthewite church, was elected. Extremely popular with younger Matthewites, Archbishop Nicholas seems generally poised to keep the Matthewite synod united.  However, it has been advanced that Archbishop Andreas retired in violation of the canons.&lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Matthewite)|The Gregorian Synod]]''': Under the primacy of Andreas of Athens, there were virtually no divisions in the Matthewites until 1995, when Metropolitan Gregory of Messinia separated with a small majority of the synod (five versus four), ostensibly over the issue of the &amp;quot;God the Father&amp;quot; [[icon]] and the related issues of Western-style icons in general. However, with the deaths of three of their bishops, the remaining two split, one remaining completely alone from the eldest hierarch, and the with Gregorios of Messinia naming three more bishops (Abramios, Pavlos, and Nectarios).&lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[Genuine Orthodox Church (Matthewite)|The Synod of Metropolitan Kirykos]]''': Originally not a schism proper, Metropolitan Kirykos and two other bishops of the synod refused to recognize the retirement of Archbishop Andreas or the enthronement of the new Archbishop, but continued to remain a member of the Synod of Archbishop Nicholas. Finally, in 2005, after several attempts, the Synod of Abp Nicholas endeavored to depose Metropolitan Kirykos, who has since added five Bishops to his Synod in a number of countries.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Romania====&lt;br /&gt;
The history of True Orthodoxy in Romania has a rich history and goes back to 1924.  Most of the faithful are currently under the omophor of Metropolitan Vlasie of Romania and his subordinate bishops. Romania was given Bishops by the synod under Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili (see above).&lt;br /&gt;
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One parish is under the Lamian Synod (see above).&lt;br /&gt;
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====Bulgaria====	 &lt;br /&gt;
The majority of the faithful are in communion with the Synod in Resistance (see &amp;quot;Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili&amp;quot; above) and the Romanian Old Calendar Orthodox Church, but are an autonomous Church - The Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Bulgaria - and comprise a few dozen parishes under Bishop Photii of Triaditsa.&lt;br /&gt;
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=Ecclesiastical status=&lt;br /&gt;
The ecclesiastical and canonical status of the various Old Calendarist jurisdictions is complex.  Some regard themselves as being the only true Orthodox Christians and thus view the mainstream Orthodox Church as being in [[apostasy]].  As such, they do not share either communion or concelebration with the mainstream churches.  Other Old Calendarists (typically those &amp;quot;in resistance&amp;quot;) have suspended concelebrations with mainstream clergy, but will still commune the faithful of mainstream jurisdictions.  They thus see themselves as a reform movement within the Orthodox Church.  The question of canonicity follows much the same sort of patterns.&lt;br /&gt;
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Views from the mainstream Orthodox on the Old Calendarists range from trying to heal the various breaks in communion or concelebration to outright declarations that such groups are themselves apostates, that is, no longer Orthodox.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Alternative Hierarchies===&lt;br /&gt;
These churches refrain from both [[concelebration]] and [[full communion|communion]] with the mainstream Orthodox churches, regarding the hierarchies of the official churches to have apostasized and placed themselves outside Orthodoxy.  In response, they have fully developed Synods in contrast to the official Church: for example, as there is an Archbishop of Athens, a rival Archbishop of Athens is elected to the see. With few exceptions, the Russian groups have not done the same due to the political climate, although the Rus-OC under Metropolitan Damascene of Moscow claims jurisdiction over the territory of the Patriarch of Moscow. &lt;br /&gt;
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Such a claim is usually accompanied by the position that the corresponding official body is completely [[schism]]atic.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Churches &amp;quot;in resistance&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;walled off&amp;quot;===&lt;br /&gt;
These churches refrain from [[concelebration]] with the mainstream Orthodox churches, but do not consider themselves schismatic, nor have they formally declared the mainstream churches without grace. In general, they set up alternative hierarchies that use the names of sees that are not used by the state Church in question[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Theology_en/Resistance.html]. &lt;br /&gt;
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It is said that they would also communicate the faithful of those churches after confession. A notable exception is the Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Romania, who receive members of the New Calendar Churches by Chrismation.&lt;br /&gt;
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=Churches listed by Country or Jurisdiction=&lt;br /&gt;
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===Greece===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Florinites]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Florinite)]] (&amp;quot;Chrysostomite Synod&amp;quot;), under Archbishop Chrysostom of Athens&lt;br /&gt;
**[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Lamian Synod)]], under Archbishop Makarios of Athens&lt;br /&gt;
** [[Holy Synod in Resistance]] (&amp;quot;Cyprianites&amp;quot;), a [[Florinites|Florinite]] church ''([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarists#Churches_.22in_resistance.22_or_.22walled_off.22 In Resistance-- see above])&lt;br /&gt;
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*[[Matthewites]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[[True Orthodox Church of Greece (Matthewite)]], under Archbishop Nicholas of Athens&lt;br /&gt;
**[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Matthewite)]], under Metropolitan Gregory of Messinia&lt;br /&gt;
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===Romania===&lt;br /&gt;
** [[Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Romania]] ''([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarists#Churches_.22in_resistance.22_or_.22walled_off.22 In Resistance-- see above])&lt;br /&gt;
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===Bulgaria===&lt;br /&gt;
** [[Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Bulgaria]] ''([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarists#Churches_.22in_resistance.22_or_.22walled_off.22 In Resistance-- see above])&lt;br /&gt;
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===Western Europe===&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Holy Synod of Milan]] (Unclear whether &amp;quot;In Resistance&amp;quot; or not)&lt;br /&gt;
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===America===&lt;br /&gt;
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These are divisions and dioceses of larger Synods in other continents.&lt;br /&gt;
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*[[Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America]], under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, the &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot; Metropolitan Diocese for America&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://milansynodusa.org American Archdioceses] of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://ctosonline.org The Center For Traditionalist Orthodox Studies:] Spiritual and monastic center for the Synod in Resistance in the U.S.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodox-christianity.net/ Matthewite Parishes in America under Abp Nicholas of Athens]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.genuineorthodoxchurch.net/america.html Matthewite Parishes in America under Metr Kirykos of Mesogaia]&lt;br /&gt;
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===Groups claiming &amp;quot;Autonomous&amp;quot; status within America===&lt;br /&gt;
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These are bodies which claimed independence from their parent churches. &lt;br /&gt;
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*[[Holy Orthodox Church in North America]] (HOCNA), under Metropolitan Makarios of Toronto&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Genuine Orthodox Church of America]], under Archbishop Gregory of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
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==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.geocities.com/joesuaiden/trueorthodox/trueorthodoxchurch.html The True Orthodox Church: A Brief Overview] (major portions of text used by permission)&lt;br /&gt;
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==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/anti-patristic-stance-old-calendarist-zealots.aspx Anti-Patristic: The Stance of the Zealot Old Calendarists] by Monk Basil of the Holy Monastery of Saint Gregory (Grigoriou), Mount Athos&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Annals_en/E2d029barnes.pdf A Response to the above link from the Synod in Resistance]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-tradition/ Paradosis: The Original Internet E-mail Forum for Traditionalists]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/ The Euphrosynos Café: A Portal and Forum for all Old Calendar Orthodox Churches]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://euphrosynoscafe.com/map/ Map of some Old Calendarist parishes in the West]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/eldergabriel_calendar.aspx Abbot Gabriel of Dionysiou Monastery on Mount Athos, Greece], on the calendar issue and the Old Calendarists&lt;br /&gt;
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===Jurisdictions===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.rpac.ru// Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.roacusa.org/ Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.ecclesiagoc.gr/ Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece], official website of Chrysostomite Synod&lt;br /&gt;
** [http://www.hotca.org/ Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America], diocesan website of the Metropolis of America (Chrysostomite) &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.ortodoxakyrkan.se/ Swedish Exarchate of the Holy Synod in Resistance]&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions|*]]&lt;br /&gt;
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[[fr:Orthodoxes vieux-calendaristes]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=93252</id>
		<title>Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=93252"/>
				<updated>2010-05-31T19:35:03Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;{{TOCright}}&lt;br /&gt;
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'''Old Calendarists''' are small separatist communities formed in Greece, Romania, Cyprus, Bulgaria and elsewhere after the adoption of the Revised Julian liturgical calendar (which is essentially the Gregorian calendar combined with the Orthodox Paschalion) in the early 20th century. Citing the 16th century anathemas against the Gregorian calendar issued by three endemousa (or &amp;quot;Patriarchal&amp;quot;) synods in Constantinople, as well as various condemnations by multiple local synods, they have become some of the most vocal critics not only of the new liturgical calendar, but of [[ecumenism]] in general, which is seen as the ultimate cause of the calendar revision.&lt;br /&gt;
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Some have erroneously categorized multiple separatist movements in Russia and elsewhere as &amp;quot;Old Calendarist&amp;quot; on the basis of their opposition to ecumenism and modernism. However, these groups (usually referred to as True or Genuine Orthodox Churches) are not strictly speaking Old Calendarists, since their separation from their respective national churches is not the result of disputes over the liturgical calendar.&lt;br /&gt;
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==History==&lt;br /&gt;
In response to various currents within Protestantism to In 1920, the Patriarchal Locum Tenens, Dorotheus of Prusa, issued the Encyclical &amp;quot;Unto the Churches of Christ Everywhere&amp;quot;[http://incommunion.org/?p=142], which officially marked the entrance of Orthodox participation in the Ecumenical Movement. (See [[Ecumenism]].) The Encyclical, tied to the formation of the League of Nations and with that end in mind, gave eleven suggestions so &amp;quot;''that above all, love should be rekindled and strengthened among the churches, so that they should no more consider one another as strangers and foreigners, but as relatives, and as being a part of the household of Christ and “fellow heirs, members of the same body and partakers of the promise of God in Christ” (Eph. 3:6).''&amp;quot;  (par. 6.) The first of the suggestions was &amp;quot;''By the acceptance of a uniform calendar for the celebration of the great Christian feasts at the same time by all the churches.''&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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In 1921, a council was called in Athens, led by Metropolitan [[Germanos of Demetrias]], the Vice-President of the Holy Synod, deposing Archbishop [[Meletios_IV_(Metaxakis)_of_Constantinople|Meletios (Metaxakis)]] of Athens, who had previously known for ecumenical activity, for recognizing the revolutionary Venizelos government in Greece[http://orthodoxwiki.org/Meletios_IV_(Metaxakis)_of_Constantinople#Archbishop_of_Athens].  In a bizzare twist, Meletios was recognized as Patriarch of Constantinople on November 21, 1921, where he began his programs anew, though previously his candidacy was declined by the Holy Synod of Constantinople in 1912. &lt;br /&gt;
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In 1923, a &amp;quot;Pan-Orthodox Congress&amp;quot; was held under the presidency of Meletios which comprised members-- six Bishops, two laymen, and an archimandrite-- of a few of the local Churches (none of the members of the Pentarchy save Constantinople sent representatives). [[Anastasy (Gribanovsky) of Kishinev|Metropolitan Anastassy]] of the Russian Church Abroad attended its initial meeting, having been in the area, declared that the Synod had given him no instructions on the matter, and soon departed. In total, less than half of the local Churches were represented by so much as a layman. (see [http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/photii_2.aspx Bishop Photii of Triaditsa, &amp;quot;The 70th Anniversary of the Pan-Orthodox Congress&amp;quot;, Orthodox Life, 1&amp;amp;2, 1994]). The purpose of the meeting was to implement the suggestions of the 1920 document, along with other uncanonical changes which were largely rejected, such as the elevation of married men to the Episcopate and the remarriage of widowed priests (sessions three and four). Finally, the Anglicans were present at the final meetings in the person of former Bishop Gore of Oxford, where it was decided that nothing stood in the way of reunion. In response, a five-member commission in Greece (of whom then Archimandrite-- and later Archbishop-- Chrysostom Papadopolous of Athens) determined to study the question of the use of the New Calendar and determined &amp;quot;''Not a single one of them [local Orthodox Churches] can separate from the others and adopt the New Calendar without becoming schismatic in relation to the others.''&amp;quot; (''Journal of the Government of the Greek Kingdom'', chapter 1, 24/25. 1. 1923, No. 8, see also ''OEM'', 1989, Chapter 17, p. 73, as noted in [http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/photii_2.aspx Bishop Photii].)&lt;br /&gt;
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===Greece===&lt;br /&gt;
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====The True Orthodox Church of Greece====&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:1925cr1.jpg|thumb|110px|An artist's rendering of the appearance of the Sign of the Cross near Athens, 1925]]&lt;br /&gt;
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In 1924, the [[bishop]]s of the [[Church of Greece]], under Archbishop Chrysostom (Papadopolous), implemented the calendar change discussed at the pan-Orthodox congress of 1923. In response, Metropolitan [[Germanos of Demetrias]], retired in protest. Lay groups and [[brotherhoods]] formed to keep the use of the [[Julian calendar]] alive, despite state persecution (Greece was an Orthodox country, and the Church enjoyed certain privileges from the state).  &lt;br /&gt;
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In 1925, perhaps the most well-known phenomenon in the Old Calendar movement occurred: a large cross over an secret Old Calendar Church in 1925 during the feast of the exaltation of the Holy Cross, witnessed by approximately two thousand people, including police intent on arresting the clergy of the group, many of whom converted that night.[http://www.orthodox.net/articles/cross-in-athens.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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In 1935, after more than 10 years, three Metropolitans, Germanos of Demetrias, the former Metropolitan of Florina, Chrysostom (Kavouridis) and Chrysostomos (Demetriou) of Zakynthos declared the Archbishop of Athens as schismatic and declared: &lt;br /&gt;
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''&amp;quot;Those who now administer the Church of Greece have divided the unity of Orthodoxy through the calendar innovation, and have split the Greek Orthodox People into two opposing calendar parts. They have not only violated an Ecclesiastical Tradition which was consecrated by the Seven Ecumenical Councils and sanctioned by the age-old practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but have also touched the Dogma of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Therefore those who now administer the Greek Church have, by their unilateral, anticanonical and unthinking introduction of the Gregorian calendar, cut themselves off completely from the trunk of Orthodoxy, and have declared themselves to be in essence schismatics in relation to the Orthodox Churches which stand on the foundation of the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the Orthodox laws and Traditions, the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, Serbia, Poland, the Holy Mountain and the God-trodden Mountain of Sinai, etc....That this is so was confirmed by the Commission made up of the best jurists and theologian-professors of the National University which was appointed to study the calendar question, and one of whose members happened to be his Blessedness the Archbishop of Athens in his then capacity as professor of Church History in the National University...Since his Beatitude the Archbishop of Athens has by his own signature declared himself to be a Schismatic, what need do we have of witnesses to demonstrate that he and the hierarchs who think like him have become Schismatics, in that they have split the unity of Orthodoxy through the calendar innovation and divided the Ecclesiastical and ethnic soul of the Greek Orthodox People?&amp;quot;'' ([http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/downloads/92_NEW_ZION_IN_BABYLON_PART_3.pdf Cited in Moss, ''New Zion in Babylon'', Part 3, p. 92])&lt;br /&gt;
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From April 23rd to April 26th 1935 the ordination of four new bishops took place. Ordained were the Archmandrites: Germanos (Barikopoulos) as Bishop of Kyklades, Christoforos (Hatzis) as Bishop of Megaris, Polycarp (Liosis) as Bishop of Diavleia, and Bishop Matthew (Karpathakes) of Bresthena).[http://www.hotca.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;amp;view=article&amp;amp;id=71:the-change-in-the-calendar-of-the-church-of-greece&amp;amp;catid=23:goc-history&amp;amp;Itemid=71]&lt;br /&gt;
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====The Florinite/Matthewite schism====&lt;br /&gt;
By the 1940s, two parties had formed within the Church of Greece: the [[Florinites]] (under Metropolitan [[Chrysostom (Kavourides) of Florina]]) and the [[Matthewites]] (under Bp. [[Matthew of Bresthena]]). The issue had been the former's vacillation on whether the mysteries of the State Church were still grace-filled. Both sides had their respective justifications for their positions, and both were violently persecuted by the state. The Matthewites were holding a more consistently applied position, but were accused of ignoring the existence of flexibility within the Church's tradition. That they labelled the Florinites as a whole as opportunists who were trying to ingratiate themselves with the state was unfortunate, and not altogether true for the followers of Metropolitan Chrysostom, and so the parties became psychologically distinct.&lt;br /&gt;
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In the end, a real physical division was formed, whereas a real doctrinal division ended: Bishop Matthew singlehandedly consecrated another bishop, and together they made more new bishops. After the death of Bishop Matthew, however, Chrysostom of Florina reaffirmed the decision of 1935 declaring the New Calendar State Church as [[schism]]atic. Two basic motivations have been given, neither of which has been universally accepted for why this was done: (1) ''Political''-- That the move was primarily political to stop any growth among the Matthewites and (2) ''Irenic''-- the more commonly accepted, that he did so in the hope of uniting all the True Orthodox Greeks into one jurisdiction. In any case, the Matthewites proceeded to elect Archbishop Agathagelos to the rank of Primate of Athens in 1958.&lt;br /&gt;
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We will deal first with the major divisions of the Florinites, since their divisions have generally been larger and more permanent in nature, and then the Matthewites.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Divisions within the Florinites====&lt;br /&gt;
After the death of Metropolitan Chrysostom, the Florinites had no bishops, and Metropolitan Chrysostom advised his flock to go under the protection of the Matthewite bishops. Fearing the repercussions, however, the Florinites opted to seek a new hierarchy and appealed to Bishops of the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] to help them. In 1960, Archimandrite Akakios Pappas was made a bishop with the title of Bishop of Talantion for these communities without the official blessing of the ROCOR Synod by [http://www.roca.org/life_of_archbishop_seraphim.htm Archbishop Seraphim of Chicago] and Bp. Theophilos Ionescu, a Romanian New Calendar Bishop under the ROCOR. The following year, the ROCOR elected and ordained Archimandrite Petros Astyfides as Bishop of Astoria in order to serve as archpastor of the Greek Old Calendarist immigrant communities in the United States and Canada. Later Bp. Akakios of Talantion and Archbishop Leonty of Chile (ROCOR) ordained five more bishops in Greece. Thus in 1961, Akakios of Talantion became the new First-Hierarch of the restored Florinite Synod. He died, however, in 1963. The Synod thus proceeded to elect Auxentios Pastras, Bishop of Gardikion, to be their new leader as Archbishop of Athens. The ROCOR under Metropolitan Philaret eventually recognized the validity of the secret consecrations in 1969.&lt;br /&gt;
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All of the current divisions of the Florinites come from one of the groups below:&lt;br /&gt;
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'''The Auxentios Synod''':  The First Florinite Synod of the True Orthodox Church of Greece was fraught with problems by the 1970s, and two major separations occurred during the lifetime of Archbishop Auxentios. However, few doubt that Archbishop Auxentios himself was of a saintly character, albeit a poor bishop. Recently there have been attempts to rehabilitate his memory (Archbishop Auxentios died in 1994); most of his synod, barely held together by the 1980s, dissolved after his death into the three jurisdictions listed below. In 1986, Auxentios was removed  from the Archdiocese of Athens and the leadership of the Old Calendar Church of Greece by a majority the Florinite bishops on account of a series of controversial episcopal ordinations conducted in the early 1980s with his apparent consent. Having the support of the dissenting minority of bishops, Auxentios proceeded to re-form his Synod, appealing for help to the [[Holy Synod of Milan|Bishops of the West]], then independent, but under his omophor, for assistance.  He died in 1994, having failed to reconcile with the parishes of the Florinite Synod under Chrysostom Kiousis. The remaining parishes of the Auxentios Synod, however, elected Archbishop Maximos of Kephalonia to the throne of Athens on [[January 7]], 1995. In response to Maximos' request to revisit the ROCOR investigation of Fr Panteleimon (Metropoulos) of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Boston, the parishes loyal to Auxentios under the American Bishops organized around Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Boston (see HOCNA), left the Synod, and elected Makarios of Toronto as locum tenens of the see of Athens. &lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Florinite)|The Chrysostomite Synod]]''': Amidst charges of maladministration, the majority of the Florinite synod chose in 1986 a new leader in Archbishop Chrysostom (Kiousis), who demonstrated rather effectively that the True Orthodox in Greece were a force to be reckoned with. Choosing to take on the Greek legal system, court cases were held where it was demonstrated that the Old Calendarists of Greece were not schismatics. Though their public reputation had been tarnished over nearly two decades of divisions, their legal existence was, and is presently, safe. The synod of Chrysostom of Athens is today the largest synod of the True Orthodox Church of Greece.&lt;br /&gt;
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'''The [[Holy Synod in Resistance|Synod-in-Resistance]] of Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili''':  While this church's official [[ecclesiology]] is peculiar, the amount of work that Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili and his synod have done to assist True Orthodox throughout the world is impressive, and must be noted. The church itself is rather small, but has been very effective in presenting intellectual arguments against the New Calendar State Church. It is headed by another defector from the Auxentios Synod, Cyprian (Koutsoumbas) of Fili, and holds an ecclesiology of “sick&amp;quot; and “healthy&amp;quot; churches, thus avoiding the repercussions that inevitably follow referring to the majority as subject to a schismatic body. Their ecclesiology is considered heretical by some of the more rigorist elements of the True Orthodox, although they were only officially condemned on an ecclesiological basis by the Synod under Archbishop Chrysostom of Athens.&lt;br /&gt;
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In 2008, the two bodies met for a number of high-profile meetings in the hope of developing closer ties.[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/E1a4028AnakoinosisDialogoy2-08.pdf]&lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Lamian Synod)|The Synod of Archbishop Makarios of Athens (Lamian Synod)]]''': In 1995, a resistance faction of six bishops formed within the synod of Chrysostom (Kiousis) and separated itself over what they claimed to be a series of canonical infractions, headed by Metropolitan Kallinikos of Lamia. The charges related to the trial of Metropolitan of Thessaloniki Euthymios (Orphanos), who had been charged with moral infractions, and the election of Bishop Vikentios (Malamatenios) of Avlona as Metropolitan of Peiraeus. By early 1997, the bishops headed by Kallinikos of Lamia had fragmented into three groups, one of which reconciled with Archbishop Chrysostom (Kiousis). A second group, Paisios Loulourgas (Met. of America) and Vikentios Malamatenios (titular Bp. of Avlona), submitted to the Ecumenical Patiarchate. Later that same year, Kallinikos of Lamia and Euthymios of Thessaloniki proceeded to ordain five [[bishop|titular bishop]]s in an attempt to create a new synod. In 2003, they finally decided to elect a primate, and elected Makarios (Kavakides) of Athens.  A good deal of their membership was then lost, as many who did not see themselves as separate from the Kiousis synod were forced to decide between the two.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Divisions within the Matthewites====&lt;br /&gt;
For all the negative press the Matthewites have received over the years due to the strictness of their position, their church has been strangely free from long lasting schisms. Only two separations are worthy of note from the main body, and while they had the potential to destroy the unity that exists within the Matthewite True Orthodox Church of Greece, they did not.&lt;br /&gt;
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The first Primate of Athens selected by the Matthewites was Agathangelos of Athens, who reposed in 1967.  Andreas of Athens, one of the original three bishops made, was elected to the primacy in 1972; unitl his death in 2005 he was one of the oldest and longest-reigning of Orthodox bishops in the world.&lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[True Orthodox Church of Greece (Matthewite)|The Synod of Archbishop Nicholas]]''': In February, 2003, Archbishop Andreas of Athens retired, and Archbishop Nicholas of Athens, considered by many to have a progressive vision for the Matthewite church, was elected. Extremely popular with younger Matthewites, Archbishop Nicholas seems generally poised to keep the Matthewite synod united.  However, it has been advanced that Archbishop Andreas retired in violation of the canons.&lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Matthewite)|The Gregorian Synod]]''': Under the primacy of Andreas of Athens, there were virtually no divisions in the Matthewites until 1995, when Metropolitan Gregory of Messinia separated with a small majority of the synod (five versus four), ostensibly over the issue of the &amp;quot;God the Father&amp;quot; [[icon]] and the related issues of Western-style icons in general. However, with the deaths of three of their bishops, the remaining two split, one remaining completely alone from the eldest hierarch, and the with Gregorios of Messinia naming three more bishops (Abramios, Pavlos, and Nectarios).&lt;br /&gt;
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'''[[Genuine Orthodox Church (Matthewite)|The Synod of Metropolitan Kirykos]]''': Originally not a schism proper, Metropolitan Kirykos and two other bishops of the synod refused to recognize the retirement of Archbishop Andreas or the enthronement of the new Archbishop, but continued to remain a member of the Synod of Archbishop Nicholas. Finally, in 2005, after several attempts, the Synod of Abp Nicholas endeavored to depose Metropolitan Kirykos, who has since added five Bishops to his Synod in a number of countries.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Romania====&lt;br /&gt;
The history of True Orthodoxy in Romania has a rich history and goes back to 1924.  Most of the faithful are currently under the omophor of Metropolitan Vlasie of Romania and his subordinate bishops. Romania was given Bishops by the synod under Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili (see above).&lt;br /&gt;
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One parish is under the Lamian Synod (see above).&lt;br /&gt;
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====Bulgaria====	 &lt;br /&gt;
The majority of the faithful are in communion with the Synod in Resistance (see &amp;quot;Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili&amp;quot; above) and the Romanian Old Calendar Orthodox Church, but are an autonomous Church - The Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Bulgaria - and comprise a few dozen parishes under Bishop Photii of Triaditsa.&lt;br /&gt;
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=Ecclesiastical status=&lt;br /&gt;
The ecclesiastical and canonical status of the various Old Calendarist jurisdictions is complex.  Some regard themselves as being the only true Orthodox Christians and thus view the mainstream Orthodox Church as being in [[apostasy]].  As such, they do not share either communion or concelebration with the mainstream churches.  Other Old Calendarists (typically those &amp;quot;in resistance&amp;quot;) have suspended concelebrations with mainstream clergy, but will still commune the faithful of mainstream jurisdictions.  They thus see themselves as a reform movement within the Orthodox Church.  The question of canonicity follows much the same sort of patterns.&lt;br /&gt;
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Views from the mainstream Orthodox on the Old Calendarists range from trying to heal the various breaks in communion or concelebration to outright declarations that such groups are themselves apostates, that is, no longer Orthodox.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Alternative Hierarchies===&lt;br /&gt;
These churches refrain from both [[concelebration]] and [[full communion|communion]] with the mainstream Orthodox churches, regarding the hierarchies of the official churches to have apostasized and placed themselves outside Orthodoxy.  In response, they have fully developed Synods in contrast to the official Church: for example, as there is an Archbishop of Athens, a rival Archbishop of Athens is elected to the see. With few exceptions, the Russian groups have not done the same due to the political climate, although the Rus-OC under Metropolitan Damascene of Moscow claims jurisdiction over the territory of the Patriarch of Moscow. &lt;br /&gt;
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Such a claim is usually accompanied by the position that the corresponding official body is completely [[schism]]atic.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Churches &amp;quot;in resistance&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;walled off&amp;quot;===&lt;br /&gt;
These churches refrain from [[concelebration]] with the mainstream Orthodox churches, but do not consider themselves schismatic, nor have they formally declared the mainstream churches without grace. In general, they set up alternative hierarchies that use the names of sees that are not used by the state Church in question[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Theology_en/Resistance.html]. &lt;br /&gt;
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It is said that they would also communicate the faithful of those churches after confession. A notable exception is the Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Romania, who receive members of the New Calendar Churches by Chrismation.&lt;br /&gt;
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=Churches listed by Country or Jurisdiction=&lt;br /&gt;
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===Greece===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Florinites]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Florinite)]] (&amp;quot;Chrysostomite Synod&amp;quot;), under Archbishop Chrysostom of Athens&lt;br /&gt;
**[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Lamian Synod)]], under Archbishop Makarios of Athens&lt;br /&gt;
** [[Holy Synod in Resistance]] (&amp;quot;Cyprianites&amp;quot;), a [[Florinites|Florinite]] church ''([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarists#Churches_.22in_resistance.22_or_.22walled_off.22 In Resistance-- see above])&lt;br /&gt;
''&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Matthewites]]&lt;br /&gt;
**[[True Orthodox Church of Greece (Matthewite)]], under Archbishop Nicholas of Athens&lt;br /&gt;
**[[Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Matthewite)]], under Metropolitan Gregory of Messinia&lt;br /&gt;
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===Romania===&lt;br /&gt;
** [[Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Romania]] ''([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarists#Churches_.22in_resistance.22_or_.22walled_off.22 In Resistance-- see above])&lt;br /&gt;
''&lt;br /&gt;
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===Bulgaria===&lt;br /&gt;
** [[Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Bulgaria]] ''([http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarists#Churches_.22in_resistance.22_or_.22walled_off.22 In Resistance-- see above])&lt;br /&gt;
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===Western Europe===&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Holy Synod of Milan]] (Unclear whether &amp;quot;In Resistance&amp;quot; or not)&lt;br /&gt;
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===America===&lt;br /&gt;
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These are divisions and dioceses of larger Synods in other continents.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
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*[[Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America]], under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, the &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot; Metropolitan Diocese for America&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://milansynodusa.org American Archdioceses] of the [[Holy Synod of Milan]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://ctosonline.org The Center For Traditionalist Orthodox Studies:] Spiritual and monastic center for the Synod in Resistance in the U.S.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodox-christianity.net/ Matthewite Parishes in America under Abp Nicholas of Athens]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.genuineorthodoxchurch.net/america.html Matthewite Parishes in America under Metr Kirykos of Mesogaia]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Groups claiming &amp;quot;Autonomous&amp;quot; status within America===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are bodies which claimed independence from their parent churches. &lt;br /&gt;
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*[[Holy Orthodox Church in North America]] (HOCNA), under Metropolitan Makarios of Toronto&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Genuine Orthodox Church of America]], under Archbishop Gregory of Denver&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.geocities.com/joesuaiden/trueorthodox/trueorthodoxchurch.html The True Orthodox Church: A Brief Overview] (major portions of text used by permission)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/anti-patristic-stance-old-calendarist-zealots.aspx Anti-Patristic: The Stance of the Zealot Old Calendarists] by Monk Basil of the Holy Monastery of Saint Gregory (Grigoriou), Mount Athos&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.synodinresistance.org/Annals_en/E2d029barnes.pdf A Response to the above link from the Synod in Resistance]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-tradition/ Paradosis: The Original Internet E-mail Forum for Traditionalists]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/ The Euphrosynos Café: A Portal and Forum for all Old Calendar Orthodox Churches] by Father Nikolai Stanosheck, a [[Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church|ROAC]] deacon&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://euphrosynoscafe.com/map/ Map of some Old Calendarist parishes in the West]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/eldergabriel_calendar.aspx Abbot Gabriel of Dionysiou Monastery on Mount Athos, Greece], on the calendar issue and the Old Calendarists&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Jurisdictions===&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.rpac.ru// Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.roacusa.org/ Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.ecclesiagoc.gr/ Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece], official website of Chrysostomite Synod&lt;br /&gt;
** [http://www.hotca.org/ Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America], diocesan website of the Metropolis of America (Chrysostomite) &lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.ortodoxakyrkan.se/ Swedish Exarchate of the Holy Synod in Resistance]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured Articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jurisdictions]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions|*]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[fr:Orthodoxes vieux-calendaristes]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=91958</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=91958"/>
				<updated>2010-03-19T18:23:00Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|right|thumb|In Greenville, NC, 2008.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is '''Father Anastasios Hudson'''.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America.''&lt;br /&gt;
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I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while living in New York.&lt;br /&gt;
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I am part of the administrative team of [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net OrthodoxChristianity.net], which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed as a Network Engineer. My wife and I helped found a nascent mission parish in Raleigh, North Carolina, [http://www.gocraleigh.org St. Mark the Evangelist], whose first liturgy was celebrated by His Grace Bishop Christodoulos in November 2007.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was ordained a deacon on April 13/26, 2008 and a priest on June 9/22, 2008 by Metropolitan Pavlos at St. Markella's Cathedral in Astoria.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In September 2008, with the blessing of Metropolitan Pavlos, I celebrated the first liturgy in Greenville, NC at [http://www.holytheotokosgreenville.org Nativity of the Holy Theotokos Orthodox Mission].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Contact Info'''&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Email: anastasios0513@yahoo.com&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;AIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;YahooIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;MSN: dustin_hudson@hotmail.com&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;diff=91957</id>
		<title>File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;diff=91957"/>
				<updated>2010-03-19T18:22:26Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: /* Summary */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
This is a picture of me taken in Greenville, NC in 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Copyright status ==&lt;br /&gt;
{{limited}}&lt;br /&gt;
== Source ==&lt;br /&gt;
My own camera.&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Images]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;diff=91956</id>
		<title>File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;diff=91956"/>
				<updated>2010-03-19T18:21:54Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: uploaded a new version of &amp;quot;Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;quot;: A picture of Fr Anastasios Hudson in Greenville, NC, August 2008.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
This is a picture of me taken in 2003.&lt;br /&gt;
== Copyright status ==&lt;br /&gt;
{{limited}}&lt;br /&gt;
== Source ==&lt;br /&gt;
My own camera.&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Images]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=91955</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=91955"/>
				<updated>2010-03-19T18:15:16Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:http://www.gocraleigh.org/images/FrAnastasios_small.jpg|right|thumb|In Greenville, NC, 2008.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is '''Father Anastasios Hudson'''.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while living in New York.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net OrthodoxChristianity.net], which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed as a Network Engineer. My wife and I helped found a nascent mission parish in Raleigh, North Carolina, [http://www.gocraleigh.org St. Mark the Evangelist], whose first liturgy was celebrated by His Grace Bishop Christodoulos in November 2007.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was ordained a deacon on April 13/26, 2008 and a priest on June 9/22, 2008 by Metropolitan Pavlos at St. Markella's Cathedral in Astoria.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In September 2008, with the blessing of Metropolitan Pavlos, I celebrated the first liturgy in Greenville, NC at [http://www.holytheotokosgreenville.org Nativity of the Holy Theotokos Orthodox Mission].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Contact Info'''&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Email: anastasios0513@yahoo.com&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;AIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;YahooIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;MSN: dustin_hudson@hotmail.com&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_American_monasteries&amp;diff=91954</id>
		<title>Talk:List of American monasteries</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_American_monasteries&amp;diff=91954"/>
				<updated>2010-03-19T18:13:25Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: /* Non-Chalcedonians vs Old Calendarists */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Non-Chalcedonians vs Old Calendarists==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I noticed that in 2008 someone deleted the section on Old Calendarist monasteries due to MCB, but I see a section for Coptic Non-Chalcedonians allowed as a sort of appendix at the bottom. Given this, would it be possible to have a similar appendix for functioning Old Calendarist monasteries in the USA?  Having read the section on Point of View, I am not honestly not sure what is acceptable and what is not. Thanks. --[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 18:13, March 19, 2010 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Church_of_the_Genuine_Orthodox_Christians_of_Greece&amp;diff=91953</id>
		<title>Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Church_of_the_Genuine_Orthodox_Christians_of_Greece&amp;diff=91953"/>
				<updated>2010-03-19T18:01:45Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece''' is an [[Old Calendarist]] body which in 1935 broke from the [[Church of Greece]] over the latter's use of the [[Revised Julian Calendar]]. The adoption of the new calendar was viewed as an assault on the ecclesiological beliefs of the Church, which they believe promotes common worship with non-Orthoox and furthers the goals of [[Ecumenism]], while sacrificing liturgical unity among Orthodox Christians. It is not in communion with any of the [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|mainstream Orthodox churches]], though it has enjoyed occasional support from mainstream churches which have retained the [[Julian Calendar]].  It also has support from some of the monks of [[Mount Athos]]. Its current [[primate]] is Archbishop Chrysostomos II (Kiousis) of Athens and All Greece.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Primates (1935-present)==&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Germanos of Demetrias (1935-1943)&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina (1943-1955)&lt;br /&gt;
*Archbishop Akakios of Athens (1960-1963)&lt;br /&gt;
*Archbishop Auxentios of Athens (1963-1986)&lt;br /&gt;
*Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens (1986-present)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Current hierarchs==&lt;br /&gt;
*Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Akakios of Diavlia&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Athanasios of Larisa&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Maximos of Demetrias&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Kallinikos of Achaia&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Justin of Evripos&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Pavlos of America&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Gerontios of Peiraeus&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Attica&lt;br /&gt;
*Bishop Gregory of Christianoupolis&lt;br /&gt;
*Bishop Theodosios of Vresthena&lt;br /&gt;
*Bishop Photios of Marathon&lt;br /&gt;
*Bishop Christodoulos of Theoupolis&lt;br /&gt;
*Metropolitan Spyridon of Australia (retired)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External link==&lt;br /&gt;
[http://www.ecclesiagoc.gr/ Official website]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_American_monasteries&amp;diff=91952</id>
		<title>Talk:List of American monasteries</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_American_monasteries&amp;diff=91952"/>
				<updated>2010-03-19T17:56:24Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: New page: == Non-Chalcedonians vs Old Calendarists==  I noticed that in 2008 someone deleted the section on Old Calendarist monasteries due to MCB, but I see a section for Coptic Non-Chalcedonians a...&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Non-Chalcedonians vs Old Calendarists==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I noticed that in 2008 someone deleted the section on Old Calendarist monasteries due to MCB, but I see a section for Coptic Non-Chalcedonians allowed as a sort of appendix at the bottom. Given this, would it be possible to have a similar appendix for functioning Old Calendarist monasteries in the USA?  Having read the section on Point of View, I am not honestly not sure what is acceptable and what is not. Thanks.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Genuine_Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_America&amp;diff=90220</id>
		<title>Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Genuine_Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_America&amp;diff=90220"/>
				<updated>2010-01-30T05:18:25Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: /* Source and external link */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America''' is an [[Old Calendarist]] church with several [[parish]]es in the United States.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Introduction ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The American Metropolis of the Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America is an autonomous [[diocese]] of the [[Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece]] (GOC).  It is also known as the Hellenic Orthodox Traditionalist Church of America, or simply as the Greek Old Calendarist Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Prior to the establishment of this diocese, there were still several independent Greek parishes in North America that had not been regularized by [[Athenagoras I (Spyrou) of Constantinople|Archbishop Athenagoras]], who had been going from parish to parish for several years, bringing independents into the fold of the [[Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America|Greek Archdiocese]]. These independent parishes sometimes looked to Greece for [[priest]]s, and sometimes turned to [[episcopi vagantes|vagante bishops]] such as Christopher Contogeorge.  The situation in general in the 1930's and 40's was one of ecclesiastical confusion, and [[Old Calendarism]] ''per se'' could be seen in some cases as a side effect of the parish remaining independent rather than as a purely idealogical position.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Arrival of Archimandrite Petros ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1951, [[Archimandrite Petros (Astyfides)]] arrived in New York at the invitation of [[Arsenios Saltas]], whom he understood to be the Greek Old Calendarist [[bishop]] of America.  Soon learning that this was not the case, Archimandrite Petros resolved to return to Greece.  However, two women in Queens persuaded him to begin services for them, and by 1954 [[Saint Markella's Cathedral]] was established.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Archimandrite Petros began to gather various independent parishes until a diocese was formed.  During this time, he was under the [[Metropolia]] and then the [[ROCOR]].  Two ROCOR bishops--[[Seraphim]] and [[Leonty]]--[[consecration of a bishop|consecrated]] him to the episcopacy in November 1962.  This consecration was not technically canonical, as it was done in secret; however, by 1969 the ROCOR had recognized the necessity of this and other Old Calendarist consecrations, and recognized the Greek Old Calendarist bishops. At this time, Metropolitan Petros joined with the Synod in Greece officially.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Dispute over Grace ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1974, the Synod of the Greek Old Calendarist Church reiterated its belief that the [[New Calendar Church]] was schismatic and devoid of grace.  Metropolitan Petros was opposed to this decision and asked the ROCOR bishops what to do, since they had consecrated him, and his consecration certificate stated that he would defer to the Synod if any question arose.  While this may seem a simplistic reasoning, the Metropolitan was concerned about keeping his pledge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By not signing the declaration, Metropolitan Petros was forced out of the Synod of the GOC, and as a result the [[Metropolis of North and South America]] passed first to [[Metropolitan Anthony]] and then [[Archimandrite Paisios (Loulourgas)]].  The later was eventually consecrated a bishop in 1979 and took his [[Cathedral]] seat at [[Saint Irene Chrysovalantou Monastery]] in Queens.  From this point on he was the bishop of the Metropolis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Reunion in 1985 ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1985, Metropolitan Petros began talks with the Synod culminating in his return to the Synod.  He was given a title of [[Metropolitan of Astoria]], which was irregular since Metropolitan Paisios, the Metropolitan of North and South America, resided down the street.  Nevertheless, this was an attempt to find peace in the church, which lasted until Metropolitan Paisios left the Synod again in 1995 to join the [[Lamian Synod]], and then from it the [[Athanasian Synod]], and finally found himself joining the [[Ecumenical Patriarchate]] in 1998.  From 1995 on, Metropolitan Petros can be considered as the Metropolitan of North and South America.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ascension of Metropolitan Pavlos ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1997, Metropolitan Petros reposed, and in 1998 his grandnephew, [[Archimandrite Pavlos (Stratigeas)]] was elected as the Metropolitan of North and South America.  He was installed in March 1998. In 2000, [[Archimandrite Christodoulos]] was consecrated titular [[Bishop of Theopoulis]] to assist Metropolitan Pavlos.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In February 2006, Metropolitan Pavlos suffered a stroke and was incapacitated.  The Archbishop became ''[[locum tenens]]'' and at present no move is being made until the extent of Metropolitan Pavlos's recovery is known.  As of December 2006, there has been tremendous progress in Metropolitan Pavlos's recovery.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Currently there are 10 parishes and 5 missions in the U.S, and 1 parish in Quebec, Canada.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Source and external link ==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.hotca.org Official website]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=80620</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=80620"/>
				<updated>2009-02-05T02:22:13Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: Just to update stuff&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|right|thumb|In Raleigh, NC, 2003.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is '''Father Anastasios Hudson'''.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while living in New York.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of [http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net OrthodoxChristianity.net], which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed as a Network Engineer. My wife and I helped found a nascent mission parish in Raleigh, North Carolina, [http://www.gocraleigh.org St. Mark the Evangelist], whose first liturgy was celebrated by His Grace Bishop Christodoulos in November 2007.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was ordained a deacon on April 13/26, 2008 and a priest on June 9/22, 2008 by Metropolitan Pavlos at St. Markella's Cathedral in Astoria.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In September 2008, with the blessing of Metropolitan Pavlos, I celebrated the first liturgy in Greenville, NC at [http://www.holytheotokosgreenville.org Nativity of the Holy Theotokos Orthodox Mission].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Contact Info'''&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Email: anastasios0513@yahoo.com&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;AIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;YahooIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;MSN: dustin_hudson@hotmail.com&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Fasting&amp;diff=78657</id>
		<title>Fasting</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Fasting&amp;diff=78657"/>
				<updated>2008-12-15T20:41:18Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{spirituality}}&lt;br /&gt;
'''Fasting''' in the [[Orthodox Church]] is usually considered abstaining from certain foods during specific days or periods.  However, fasting means more than simply abstaining from foods.  It also may include refraining from [[marriage|marital]] relations and limiting entertainment, for instance. Certainly, it is a time when there is increased focus on refraining from evil actions and thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;
==Types of fasting==&lt;br /&gt;
Orthodox Christians usually have one three types of fasting in mind when they speak of fasting.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Ascetic fast===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Ascetic]] fasting is done by a set [[monastic]] rules.  These rules exist not as a Pharisaic &amp;quot;burden too hard to bear&amp;quot; ([[Gospel of Luke|Luke]] 11:46), but as an ideal to strive for.  Ascetic fast rules are not an end in themselves, but are means to [[spiritual]] perfection crowned in love, and aided by prayer.  The rules mainly consists of total abstinence from certain foods and a substantial dietary reduction.&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
===Eucharistic or liturgical fast===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Eucharist]]ic fasting does not refer to the normal abstinence in preparation for receiving the Holy Communion; it means fasting from the holy Eucharist celebration itself.  This is done during the week days of Great Lent along with an ascetic fast.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Total fast===&lt;br /&gt;
This is a total abstinence from all food and drink for a short duration. This is done for one or even just part of a day, for spiritual concentration on something that is to come. For example, the eve of Christmas, or the time before receiving Holy Communion.  It is an ultimate last preparation for a [[Great Feast]] or decisive spiritual event.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Fasting times==&lt;br /&gt;
===Extended fasting periods===&lt;br /&gt;
There are four main periods of extended fasting:&lt;br /&gt;
#The [[Great Lent]] is the period of six weeks preceding [[Holy Week]] in anticipation of the Feast of [[Great Feasts|Feasts]], [[Pascha]]. Great Lent is preceded by the ''Meatfast'', that starts on the Monday after the [[Sunday of the Last Judgment]] through [[Cheesefare Sunday]]. &lt;br /&gt;
#The [[Nativity]] Fast (or Advent; also called St. [[Apostle Philip (of the Twelve)|Philip]]'s Fast, coming immediately after his feast on [[November 14]]), is the period from [[November 15]] to [[December 24]] (forty days) in anticipation of [[Christmas]], the Festival of the Nativity of the Savior.&lt;br /&gt;
#The [[Apostles]]' Fast is the period from the week following [[Pentecost]] (a variable feast) to the [[feast day]] of Sts. [[Apostle Peter|Peter]] and [[Apostle Paul|Paul]] on [[June 29]].&lt;br /&gt;
#The [[Dormition]] Fast is the period of the first two weeks of August in anticipation of the feast of the [[Dormition]] of the [[Theotokos]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Fasting days===&lt;br /&gt;
*Eve of [[Theophany]] ([[January 5]])&lt;br /&gt;
*Beheading of St. [[John the Forerunner|John the Baptist]] ([[August 29]])&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Elevation of the Holy Cross]] ([[September 14]])&lt;br /&gt;
*All Wednesdays, except for Fast-Free Weeks, in remembrance of the betrayal of Christ by [[Judas Iscariot]].&lt;br /&gt;
*All Fridays, except for Fast-Free Weeks, in remembrance of Christ’s Crucifixion.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Regular fasting===&lt;br /&gt;
Orthodox Christians also regularly fast on Wednesdays and Fridays to commemorate, respectively, [[Jesus Christ|Christ]]'s betrayal by [[Judas Iscariot]] and His [[Crucifixion]].  [[Monastery|Monasteries]] additionally commemorate the [[angel]]s on Mondays by fasting.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Preparation for receiving the Holy Eucharist===&lt;br /&gt;
Fasting is a part of the preparation for receiving the [[Eucharist|Body and Blood]] of [[Jesus Christ|Christ]].  Additionally, confession and a specific rule of [[prayer]]s are necessary for proper preparation.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For morning [[Divine Liturgy|Liturgies]], one keeps an absolute fast (no food or drink, even water) on arising from sleep until receiving Communion.  Some also abstain from meat and dairy after the preceding [[Vespers]].  For afternoon or evening Liturgies, one should keep an absolute fast for at least six hours.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One should always check with the primary celebrant of the Divine Liturgy to verify his expectations regarding preparation for reception of the Eucharist.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Because the celebrating priest or deacon will commune and then consume the remaining Eucharist, he observes an absolute fast before every Liturgy he celebrates.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Exceptions===&lt;br /&gt;
The fasting discipline may be relaxed, if necessary, when one is travelling or ill.  Additionally, exceptions should be made when receiving another's hospitality, because the focus should not be on outward shows of piety, but rather accepting the love and generosity of others.  Orthodox Christians should not fast to the detriment of their health.  Fasting is a means to an end and not an end in itself.  ''If you are new to fasting, ask your [[priest]] for guidance before you begin.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Fast-free weeks===&lt;br /&gt;
After certain feasts, Orthodox Christians do not fast, in order to show their joy for the feast.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:[[Afterfeast]] of the [[Nativity]] of [[Christ]] to [[Theophany]] Eve ([[December 25]] through [[January 4]])&lt;br /&gt;
:Week following the [[Sunday of the Publican and Pharisee]] (first week of the [[Lenten Triodion]])&lt;br /&gt;
:[[Bright Week]] (week after [[Pascha]])&lt;br /&gt;
:[[Trinity Week]] (week after [[Pentecost]])&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Foods==&lt;br /&gt;
Fasting related to foods has many different degrees.  During Great Lent, Wednesdays, and Fridays, daily fasting is at its most strict, abstaining from:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:meat (anything with a backbone), &lt;br /&gt;
:dairy products (eggs are in this or the previous category),&lt;br /&gt;
:olive oil, and&lt;br /&gt;
:wine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Additionally, during Great Lent, the size and number of meals, as well as the selection, are smaller.  On many other [[feast day|feast]] or fast days, particular foods are avoided or permitted, in lesser degrees of fasting.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Spiritual meaning==&lt;br /&gt;
Fasting also partners with [[prayer]], [[almsgiving]] and [[confession]], readying the whole person like an athlete, body, mind, and soul, for an upcoming [[feast]], similar to the way in which Orthodox Christians would hope to be properly prepared for the [[Second Coming]].  For this reason, during fasting seasons, no [[marriage]]s should take place.  (Cf. [[Pastoral Guidelines]].)  Another important part of any fasting period is going to [[Confession]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==History and Tradition==&lt;br /&gt;
The Christians inherited the tradition of fasting from the [[Judaism|Jews]].  Jesus, too, gave examples of fasting to his [[disciple]]s, most notably preceding his forty days in the desert when he was tempted by the [[devil]] ([[Gospel of Matthew|Matt]] 4:1-11). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Almsgiving]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Confession]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Prayer]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Xerophagy]] (or ''dry-eating'')&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.lasvegasorthodox.com/library/Orthodox_Practices/Fasting-True_Nature_of_Fasting-Bishop_Kallistos_Ware.htm &amp;quot;The True Nature of Fasting&amp;quot;] by Bishop [[Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia|Kallistos]] Ware&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://xcthesavior.org/content/view/35/ &amp;quot;The Discipline of Fasting&amp;quot;] by Bishop Kallistos Ware&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.christianforums.com/t95160&amp;amp;goto=nextnewest &amp;quot;On Fasting at Great Lent&amp;quot;] by Fr. [[Alexander Schmemann]] (scroll down to comment 5)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.oca.org/OCFasting.asp Concerning Fasting] on the [[Orthodox Church in America]] site&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.cptryon.org/prayer/adx/advfood.html &amp;quot;What Should We Make to Eat?&amp;quot;] by Mary Ann Castronovo Fusco&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Asceticism]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Church Life]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[ro:Postul]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Western_Rite_and_Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=73912</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite and Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Western_Rite_and_Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=73912"/>
				<updated>2008-08-04T00:05:26Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== An Editorial, Not an Entry ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The original version of this page represents a blog entry or a Milan Synod editorial, not a Wikipage of any sort. It is factually erroneous, self-contradictory, poorly written, and violates NPV standards.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The article claims Western Rite parishes make up a &amp;quot;substantial portion&amp;quot; of Old Calendarists; in fact, &amp;quot;Numerically, Western-rite Old calendar communities outnumber every other jurisdiction of traditionalist Orthodox communities in the United States.&amp;quot; If this were true, it would mean there are more Western Rite Old Calendarists than Byzantines in ROCOR, Moscow, Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Jerusalem Patriarchate, not to mention the schismatic &amp;quot;Greek Old Calendarists.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It then claims, &amp;quot;There are parishes under the [[Orthodox Church of France]] using the Old Calendar (this is not the case, according to a priest of L'ECOF, in France).&amp;quot; Well, which is it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then it falsely asserts, &amp;quot;some under the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] using the [[Sarum Rite]], though how important the use of the Old Calendar is among them is the subject of debate.&amp;quot; First, Fr. James Deschene and Fr. Anthony Nelson are Old Calendarists who use the traditional Liturgy of St. Gregory. Secondly, there is no &amp;quot;debate&amp;quot; as to the obedience of Frs. James, Anthony, Michael (of St. Petroc), Barry, nor the ROCOR faithful. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The rest of the article is a long editorial pushing an agenda: to inveigh against the canonical Western Rite. There are alleged philosophies that supposedly &amp;quot;color&amp;quot; the views of WRO. That Western Rite parishes would be reabsorbed by Rome, Canterbury, and/or Antioch &amp;quot;was an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion with the Antiochians.&amp;quot; (!) There is alleged &amp;quot;hostility&amp;quot; between Old Calendarists and Antiochians (news to Fr. James and Fr. Paul Schneirla), etc., etc.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is merely an editorial proselytizing for the Milan Synod, or at least besmirching canonical Western Rite Orthodoxy. Either way, it has no business here. I've edited it as much as the facts will support, but I don't know if the stub will support a full article or if this stub should just be deleted, probably the latter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:28, June 24, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Just as a note:  ''[[Old Calendarist]]'' is used on this site to refer to those groups which have broken communion with the mainstream Orthodox Church primarily or initially over the question of the calendar, not those mainstream Orthodox churches who happen to use the Julian calendar and remain in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:22, June 25, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I note nearly all the same inaccuracies were restored. (It was &amp;quot;an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion&amp;quot; that AWRV parishes would be reabsorbed by the Papacy, Canterbury, and/or the Anglican Continuum? A most indefensible of many such assertions in this editorial. I wonder where one could verify how many parishes the Old Calendarists have overall (all synods), and how many are Western Rite? The assertion that there are more WR GOCs than ER GOCs seems dubious.  --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is statistically correct, since I said that GOC's in the United States and Western Europe were outnumbered. That is absolutely correct, and if you don't believe me, please count the number of diaspora parishes among the GOC's. Milan's parishes in America outnumber the GOC's of Chrysostomos, Andreas, Maximos, and the Russians' Valentine's, Tikhon's, and Bartholemew's combined. Those are usually the recognized GOC's in the country, save for HOCNA, which uses inflated numbers.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Count them if you do not believe me.  --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Of course, not all Milan Synod groups are Western Rite. (And I am told HOCNA is not alone in inflating its numbers.) Were one to count actual WR groups in the Milan Synod, would these outnumber all the Old Calendarist churches combined (including any Old Calendarists of Romania, Bulgaria, etc., ''if'' they have churches in these territories)? If so, how might one VERIFY this? The claim seems questionable. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 02:59, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I will not waste my time: however, that's exactly my point. Both the jurisdictions you mention have NO parishes in Western Europe or America. Please start counting. Thank you. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 04:18, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There was NO editorial.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Response: 1) there IS an Old Calendar parish under L'ECOF: Paraclete Church in the US.&lt;br /&gt;
2) I was only referring to Old Calendarist communities, not to ROCOR (which has 2 Western Rite parishes in America) nor the AWRV.&lt;br /&gt;
3) The subject of debate was the fact that some Western rite communities in ROCOR have used the New Calendar.&lt;br /&gt;
4) I was not inveighing against anything but discussing two different mindsets. The intolerance of one has shown its ugly face here.  You will not delete my work to promote your agenda. I shall remind you once, Deacon, that even among the Antiochians, patience for such abuses as promoting Anglicans as Orthodox saints grows ever thinner.  For those who don't know what I am talking about? http://bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com/2008/07/king-charles-i-saint-of-awrv-part-ii.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Trust me, even canonical Orthodox agree with me on some of these matters, because they love Orthodoxy. You don't have to be an Old Calendarist Zealot to see what you are trying to cover up is wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Unless I am banned, I will put this back and continue to do so.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 19:57, July 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Don't tempt fate!  :)  I don't know the state of your emotions/soul/etc., but I can say that your language is getting a bit heated.  Please calm it down and don't make threats.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I honestly can't understand why it is that the articles on the WR so often seem to draw such controversy.  In any event, please note that turning these articles into debate grounds will necessitate drastically reducing their content to conform to our rules on controversial topics (i.e., no original research; only reliable, third-party, published sources).  If y'all don't want that, I suggest everyone find a way to work together in a calm manner.  Thanks!  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:00, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::On reading this article, I was confused...then I realised something.  There's _very_ little in this article that has anything to do with Old Calendarists and the Western Rite.  Lots to do with the philosophies of the WR, motives...but the title, as I understand it, is rather misleading, and refers to - at most - the introduction and one or two paragraphs. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 00:12, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's it, exactly. As I wrote, this is merely private opinion about WR. And OrthodoxWiki is not the place for private opinions. I've edited it, attempting to make this read more like an encyclopedia entry then a private blog. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You once again deleted the whole article. It seems your &amp;quot;full of anti-WR screeds&amp;quot; argument is gaining ground, although I must point out again that the article is about mindsets and should be subjected to further revision. However, you made clear at the outset that you don't want these words to exist at all.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I did not delete the entire article but preserved as much as could be readily verified and considered on-topic (which, I grant, was very little). The moderators have noted your opinions of the &amp;quot;mindsets&amp;quot; is not really part of the topic, and as has been noted, doesn't seem to accurately reflect anyone's thinking except the author's. Beyond that, the article erroneously claims ROCOR has only Sarum Rite WRITE parishes (there is also Christminster); the wording implies these ROCOR churches do not care about Old Calendar use (false); and seems to be stating Antioch has already determined to hand over its WR parishes to Rome, Canterbury, and the Anglican Continuum (Really? Source?). I am given to understand elsewhere you have accused OrthodoxWiki of trying to &amp;quot;shut down the discussion&amp;quot; or some-such by editing your article. But OrthodoxWiki is not a discussion forum; it's a place for uninformed readers to find verifiable facts. This entry, as you keep reposting it, may express your views, and inaccurate as I think they are, you are welcome to do express them in this country -- but continually reposting these kinds of blog-entry thoughts is inconsistent with the purpose and standards of OrthodoxWiki. I will make one final reversion and leave the rest to the moderators. (Sigh...) --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 02:59, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyone can objectively look at the history of your edits and easily see you are deleting the entire article, and worse, placing a subjective commentary of one or two sentences in its place. I can prove it by dissecting it here, it's short.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Some '''[[Old Calendarists]]''' in the United States have approved the formation of '''[[Western Rite|Western-rite communities]]''', though they are currently far less numerous than their counterparts in the [http://www.antiochian.org/Western-Rite Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate].'' &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Uncertain, since we have no clear numbers of existing parishes in the vicariate. In fact, the number of Milan parishes rivals the number of those in the vicariate. However, since this isn't an article about the vicariate, but about &amp;quot;Western Rite and Old Calendarists&amp;quot;, I opted not to make such a comparison except where relevant.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''These parishes under the [[Holy Synod of Milan]] are former members of the Old Catholic/''vagante'' movement.'' &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is simply false, since you do not know the history of many of the parishes; nor is that universally true. Nor is it relevant, since I was talking about the history of the parishes and their eventual union with the Old Calendar Church in the Milan Synod.  Certainly, if you wanted to mention they were of questionable canonicity (as were many of your own parishes, since they all knew each other then) you could have done so in the article. But that would be self-defeating, I assume.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''There is one American parish under the [[Orthodox Church of France]] using the Old Calendar and some under the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] using the [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Sarum Liturgy], [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm The English Liturgy], and the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]. Specifically, ROCOR's Western Rite includes Christ the Savior Monastery (Hamilton, Ontario, Canada), and St. Petroc Monastery (Tasmania) and its dependencies.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We have already noted that including ROCOR has some historical value, but it is far from the only church using the old calendar. As well, the Synod banned the use (temporarily) of Western rites in 1973.  So you may wish to stop treading where you know not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I should also add that what I've commented on is in fact all you left. Exactly three sentences. You say &amp;quot;I did not delete the entire article but preserved as much as could be readily verified and considered on-topic (which, I grant, was very little)&amp;quot;.  Now, while it could be argued there are opinions in this piece (I respectfully disagree) I don't think any objective reader could say that there were only three &amp;quot;verifiable sentences&amp;quot;, all of which, oddly, you wrote. Even more so, no objective reader could say they are on-topic.  So again I am defying your &amp;quot;edit&amp;quot;. Anyone who looks at the edit history sees I ignore edits on my work.  But you are not acting as an editor, but a grand inquisitor. Reading the beginning of this talk, we can see the lengths travelled to justify this deletion (referring to Serbian Orthodox as &amp;quot;Old Calendarists&amp;quot;, et cetera). I am leaving this up to the moderation team as well. And if you take it out again, I will again restore it. Until you deal with facts, and not try to rewrite them, I will answer you bluntly.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 04:18, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: The ROCOR Synod did not ban Western Rite in 1973. The 'ban' came out of HTM and was told to people as having been an act of Synod. In any case, in 1975 Abp Nikon Rklitsky (contrary to HTM's psuedo-ban) received Mount Royal monastery in New York from the Moscow Patriarchate - which was supported by the Synod. It never would have happened if the Holy Synod of ROCOR had actually produced any such document. Whether ROCOR should be included at all is probably pov - as ROCOR was never part of the Old Calendarist movement (Moscow is still Old Calendar, as is ROCOR post-rapprochment - 'Old Calendarism' is more of a phenomena with those churches affected by the New Calendar.) Some Old Calendarists were inside ROCOR, but ROCOR as a whole was never Old Calendarist itself - rather, it was the keeper of the true Russian tradition (which, it so happens, includes Western Rite: &amp;quot;It was Western rite in 19th c. Russia!&amp;quot;) An implication of a difference between ROCOR today and ROCOR of a few years ago is *extremely* pov - especially as the mainstream understanding that ROCOR is the same body, in continuity, and has only changed in restoring concelebration between its hierarchy. [[User: Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I admit error. I was relying on memory. It did not ban WRite in 1973. It banned it in 1978 in their own Synodal documents.&lt;br /&gt;
	 &lt;br /&gt;
If I could figure out how to put a footnote on this, the text is here of all the Synodal resolutions. Perhaps you should read them, unless you think HTM wrote them all.&lt;br /&gt;
	 &lt;br /&gt;
http://roacusa.org/1.DoFRotSoBotROCoRNewsletter/1979/DoFR19790221.PDF&lt;br /&gt;
	 &lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:33, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: That's my impression, as well.  It seems to me that most of this analytical material should be elsewhere, though I'm not really sure where.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: We really need someone who can be our ''de facto'' Sysop In Charge of WR Stuff.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:14, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: I think that this article is a bit of personal ideology - I don't know that it accurately represents the approach of any group. It sure doesn't represent ROCOR (our Holy Synod's ukases on Western Rite do). Personally, my vote for a Sysop for WR would be someone who knew those involved with the Western Rite (AWRV, ROCOR, MP) and has access to the clergy and the archival material.I know that Fr. Michael of Saint Petroc monastery has done some editing here - he might be someone to ask (though he is often busy.) But, he does have the breadth of knowledge. Otherwise, Willibrord if pretty fair, for Byzantine rite clergy.  ... back to an earlier question: why the subject attracts controversy... mostly because there are a few small groups external to the Western rite that have particular agendas, and hope to use (or abuse) Western rite towards their own goals. IF Orthodox Wiki is an encyclopedia of Orthodoxy, it should represent the accepted majority view of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy: at this point, that is the Russian Western Rite and the Antiochian Western Rite. Domination and harassment from other parties is mostly what makes us Western Rite Orthodox come here - hoping at the least to defend against (yet again) more attacks, misrepresentations, or to tie up our thinly-spread resources on controversial argumentation. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Aristibule has it just right. This is private opinion and does not accurately represent anyone's views. This advocacy and private opinion simply has no place on OrthodoxWiki. Incidentally, Aristibule would be a great Sysop for WR matters; he's proven his knowledge and fairness throughout. (See the discussion section of any WR article, or how he has set the record straight on William Henry Francis Brothers' legacy.) --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I'd be putting some of it in [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]] or [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]] articles (the bits that aren't there already, anyway), but a lot of it is not universally accepted (thinking of the the 'catastrophist' and 'developmental' positions) and would make very good opinion pieces, rather than encyclopaedia articles, IMHO.  I think you may be right about the WR Sysop, though... &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really don't like the idea of tearing apart the article. The two schools of thought are quite common throughout every text that discusses the schism from an Orthodox perspective.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Er... well, it seemed like a good title. I was trying to explain the existence of Western Rite people in the Old Calendarists, but that might make a more confusing title.... &amp;quot;Philosophy of Western Rite Old Calendarism&amp;quot;? But then that would immediately make developmentalists mad at catastrophists... *sigh* well, I tried. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On another note I vote for Fr Lev to be a Sysop (though he punished me on this article on the French Church thing). He seems to be balanced and knows this stuff. With respect to some of the other vocal WR people (not naming names) I notice a sort of &amp;quot;across the board&amp;quot; desire to control the flow of information rather than disseminate it, which I've seen in other places. That mentality should have no place in an encyclopedia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:28, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think perhaps a [[Western Rite historical thought]] article (or something like that) might be useful, if only because the majority of this material does not bear directly on the Old Calendarist WR in its content.  (It ''informs'' what they do, to be sure, but so does the material in the [[Western Rite]] article itself, etc.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's fine to disseminate information, but on OrthodoxWiki, that information is to be disseminated in an encyclopedic manner, which includes proper categorization and organization but also includes ''describing'' the value judgments of various notable groups rather than advocating them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is true that the mainstream churches which have a WR (Antioch, Moscow) are going to be presented as the mainstream on OW, but that does not mean that every viewpoint that someone has within those churches is going to be presented as The Truth.  They should be presented in descriptive, not prescriptive or advocacy terms. &lt;br /&gt;
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Please keep in mind the [[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual#Controversial Subjects and Original Research|policy on controversial topics and original research]].  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:35, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Russian Orthodoxy and Western Rite==&lt;br /&gt;
The Russian Orthodox Western Rite outside of Europe did not go to the Ukrainians, it went to ROCOR with Mount Royal monastery. The misunderstanding may center around Francis Brothers - who was an Old Catholic bishop who got consecration in the 'Living Church', and was later received by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1962 as a priest. He left Orthodoxy within a year, and began to operate as an independent Old Catholic bishop after that time. Mount Royal monastery stayed with Orthodoxy, and did not follow Brothers. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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I didn't go into that here,however Metropolitan William did not claim to be Old Catholic, but Orthodox by the time of his death. He left the MP because he did not trust going to Soviet Russia to be ordained a Bishop. Those communities later joined the Milan Synod. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:48, July 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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You've been misinformed. Brothers did claim to be Old Catholic - from the time he left his priesthood in the Russian Orthodox Church, until his death - as the Metropolitan Archbishop of the Old Catholic Church in America. He had already gone to Soviet Russia before when he was 'consecrated' by the Living Church movement. Within a year of being received into Orthodoxy by Bp Dositheus (Russian Orthodox - not 'Living Church'), he left to perform Old Catholic consecrations as an Old Catholic bishop: unaware he had been elected as a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church. The leadership passed to Dom Augustine (Whitfield) who took the body into ROCOR - where it remains to this day. 'Metropolitan-Archbishop Brothers' most interesting activity was in Ecumenicism: where he supported the claims and ministry of &amp;quot;Father Divine&amp;quot;, as well as Billy Graham. The only contact with Orthodoxy he ever had was the one year he was a priest of Mount Royal under Bishop Dositheus. His 'communities' that joined the Milan Synod were Old Catholic, and never had Orthodox orders. The only community that he was ever associated with that became Orthodox was Mount Royal - and its former members (including novices) are to this day either still in ROCOR, the MP, or with the Antiochians. It helps to have access to archives - and the people who lived through it.You might find some illumination here:  http://sourcebook.oldcatholichistory.org/index.php?name=Sections&amp;amp;req=viewarticle&amp;amp;artid=75&amp;amp;page=1&lt;br /&gt;
  [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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Since we are currently locked in a debate about the current status of certain members of our Churches that are living I would venture to say that neither of us is acting objectively.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==France?==&lt;br /&gt;
I don't know why the Orthodox Church of France is mentioned in this article; they aren't Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 04:28, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I was under the impression that they were at one point on the Old Calendar-- since it appears one of their American parishes uses the Old Calendar.  That said, their history is very much tied into the history of the Russian Church Abroad as the ROCOR was beginning a period of deeper isolation from official Orthodoxy, which nurtured a catastrophist position.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 12:57, May 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I believe that France was New Calendar even while under the protection of Archibsihop (Saint) John Maximovitch and ROCOR. They were not the only ones in ROCOR using the New Calendar. More controversially, the Church of France follows the Western Paschalion. No parishes of the French Church in France are Old Calendar. The fact that there is an American parish that observes the Old Calendar is idiosyncratic, so I don't think France has a place in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 13:19, May 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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You may well be right, Father. I will check the history, and if this is the case, I think at the least that should be noted in every instance of the French Church's mention in the article as soon as humanly possible. I am loath to remove reference to them altogether, because the ideological stance of the French Church as against the stance of the more &amp;quot;mainline&amp;quot; Western rite groupings matches more the thinking that is found in Milan and ROCOR Sarum parishes (what I call &amp;quot;catastrophic&amp;quot;), which do use the Old Calendar.  (However, it should be noted that in those same circles I have heard the argument adduced that even before the schism, the French Church was using a pre-schism Roman Rite.) I may well be misreading them, however, and am open to correction. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 15:48, May 4, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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As of yesterday, I did ask the priest of L'ECOF in America if what you said was correct. I have corrected the page accordingly. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 00:23, May 15, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== ROCOR and ECOF ==&lt;br /&gt;
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This is grossly inaccurate: &amp;quot;In Europe, the ROCOR's role in the formation of the Church of France is undisputed, as the Church's existence was blessed by St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. However, the majority of the Church of France's parishes in France are on the New Calendar.&amp;quot; 1. The Church of France was established in 1936 by Moscow. It was over two decades before St John became the archpastor for ECOF. 2. I know of NO parish in ECOF (in France) that uses the Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 00:35, May 15, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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It is possible to just correct it.... L'ECOF had no Bishop until St John of Shanghai, and therefore couldn't perpetuate itself. As for the calendar, that was just a mistake. Will update accordingly.... --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:54, May 16, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Updated. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:58, May 16, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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It is not correct to say that the Church of France had no bishop until Archbishop (Saint) John (Maximovitch). The Church of France was under the PAtriarchate of Moscow, which has bishops. There is one and only one priest under the omophorion of the bishop of the Orthodox Church of France who uses an Old Calendar reckoning of the date, but I'm not sure this is what is conveyed by saying he is onl the Old Calendar. He follows the calendar of the Church of France, which is Western, only he observes this Western calendar 13 days after everyone else. In any event, the existence of one priest being given permission to so reckon the calendar doesn't warrant including France in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 20:13, July 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Relevance of text to title==&lt;br /&gt;
I reassert that considerable amounts of this article have nothing to do with the specific issue of the Western Rite and Old Calendarists.  There are five sections to this article:&lt;br /&gt;
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*Introduction - Mostly on topic.&lt;br /&gt;
*Difference in Mindset Among Western Rite Orthodox - Should be its own article.&lt;br /&gt;
*Suitability of Definitions - See above.&lt;br /&gt;
*History - The line about Overbeck is relevant to the previous section; the remainder is (or should be) covered in the history of Western Rite articles.&lt;br /&gt;
*Ecumenism and the Western Rite - Badly named, and needing an full rewrite.  There's a lot of prejoratives, in addition to discussion of 'Mainstream' Orthodox Churches, which should be, at most, peripherally in the article, if at all.&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;Catastrophist&amp;quot; Thought and Orthodox Traditionalism - Should be tied to the 'Difference in Mindset Among Western Rite Orthodox' article.&lt;br /&gt;
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I posit that this article should be two articles - one talking about WR and Old Calendarists (which would include ROCOR ''pre-reunification'', but not post), the other talking about different viewpoints on the Great Schism. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 05:19, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Should there, perhaps, be some form of documentation to his claims, as well? As Aristibule points out, this is both factually wrong and representative only of his own opinion. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:15, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I am providing more documentation to my claims than you are aware. I admit I was off by five years, but unlike Aristibule, I can admit when a document written by Synod was actually written by Synod, not trying to blame everything on HTM.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:28, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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THANK YOU! This was extremely constructive. I would be glad to try to see such a &amp;quot;split&amp;quot; occur if it would make this more useful to the wiki. I will look over &amp;quot;Ecumenism&amp;quot; section to see what can be done with it. (looking over it now, I can't find too much opinion, but much that can be seen as such without actual proof -- saying the MP abandoned the Western rite without proof seems opinionated- open to suggestions). Thank you very much. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 05:26, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I know that most discussion boards work differently, but OW general practise has been that everything under a header is written chronologically - note the 'thank you' para now doesn't relate to what it used to.  The reason for this is simple - it means that other people can follow the discussion (right now it's very difficult to follow, which is why it's just been the two people involved).&lt;br /&gt;
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If you feel that something is, although hypothetically possible, just plain unlikely, there is a template that you can insert into the text: &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;{{citation}}&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;, which will pop up with a nice &amp;quot;{{citation}}&amp;quot;.  If there's no documentation after, say, a week, then one can legitimate pulling it down without revert wars. And, if there's documentation, link to it or use Wiki's in-text referencing with footnotes - ideally to a document that is online, but if it's not online then we probably can't do much about that. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 21:47, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I haven't had to say this before, but my personal philosophy is that 10 reverts inside an hour is, well, unsane.  I'm not worried about seeming like I'm taking sides because I figure that there's a 50/50 chance that either side's view will stay on the page (for now).&lt;br /&gt;
:Please cite your ''documented'' evidence.  &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 22:00, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree. I cited, in this talk page (I still don't know how to footnote), an issue of a newsletter produced at Synod by Father George-- later Bp Gregory (Grabbe) -- that included the ROCOR 1978 resolutions. Since then, I have been answered with personal opinions. I've not stated my opinion on it, but simply noted its existence.  I was told it was &amp;quot;ROAC point of view&amp;quot; (because I took it off an archive run by ROAC of all the newsletters from the 70's onward) but have not been given a single documented proof that these minutes were forgeries. Then I was told HTM forged it. By contrast, every member of ROCOR received these informational newsletters which contained Synodal archives and other news stories from Synod.&lt;br /&gt;
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The reason this is being &amp;quot;covered up&amp;quot; is simply because the new &amp;quot;official story&amp;quot; of Christminster is that they were connected to Mt Royal which came to ROCOR in '75, and then in 1993 were blessed to move. The real story is that Fr Augustine left ROCOR under pressure after 1978, went to the Church of France and other places and the real *official* beginning of Christminster is 1993.&lt;br /&gt;
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However, cover-ups have no place in encylopedias.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:10, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The citations Joseph Suaiden provided are circular - the 1979 purported decision was never acted upon and are believed to be spurious (as Bishop-Elect John R. Shaw has written elsewhere online.) The burden of proof is rather with the claim that the ROAC document was both a good translation, and accurately reflects the actual decisions of the ROCOR synod. Fr. Augustine, however, never left ROCOR - which is why Dom James was able to join him back East and found Christminster in 1993. Mount Royal was in Woodstock with the MP in 1962-63, NYC with the MP from 1963-1975, and in NY and a succession of other places from 1975-1988. Fr. Augustine was still with ROCOR (see his article &amp;quot;Valid Orders&amp;quot;  in the ROCOR publication &amp;quot;Orthodox America&amp;quot; Issue 88, Vol. IX, No. 8, March, 1989 - the year of his retirement to Florida. http://www.roca.org/OA/88/88n.htm )  This isn't a 'new' story, but simply the continuous story. The documentation exists - but it isn't all online. The fact that someone can pop up some websites, and make various new claims doesn't make it documentation. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;And in NY and a succession of other places from 1975-1988&amp;quot; is exactly my point. By 1979, he was NOT recognized at Synod. Bp Gregory did not even regard his existence, let alone his membership in Synod. You are pointing over a gap of 11 years-- and have not even regarded the fact that in practice the dictate was followed. The fact that Fr John thinks EVERYTHING from the Sorrowful Epistles to the Anathema against Ecumenism was ghostwritten by HTM is not relevant to the fact that the official ROCOR position, openly stated, was that Western rite was banned in '78, and I do not deny that this prohibition was relaxed later.  You are attesting to the factuality of this article, not the reverse.&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:36, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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P.S. Please cite what your argument that the &amp;quot;ROAC translation&amp;quot; (again, made at Synod in ROCOR by the secretary of the Synod a decade before ROAC existed, and while ROAC's primate was with the Moscow Patriarchate) of the Synodal decisions were never accepted with a Synodal document attesting to the same. Thanks. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:43, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I don't have an interest in the Old Calendarist issues here, but I do want to say that I was active in the Church of France in America from late 1992 on, and served as the bishop's vicar for America beginning in early 1993. No one connected to Mt Royal, including Dom Augustine, was in any way connected to the Church of France at that time or since. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 22:58, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The 11 years in question were 1978-1989. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 23:04, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:A lot of the dispute seems to me to be about whether the extant minutes are valid minutes (or something along those lines).  Remember, OW is able to describe an issue without taking sides in it (e.g. 'the extant minutes say ''x'', but objections from ''name'' have been recorded regarding ''problem with extant minutes'').&lt;br /&gt;
:An official website is a valid resource, no matter who runs it, but it does have limitations.  It doesn't matter if (to use the pertinent example) Suaiden is the webmaster of the ROAC website, if official things are on the ROAC website, then we can cite it - but that only goes towards proving that ROAC puts these ideas forward - but that doesn't, in and of itself, make it correct (and the same is true of ROCOR, AWRV, etc).  If there is a dispute amongst official sources, then I see no other course for OW than to document the claims on both sides in as NPOV a manner as possible.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Just a point of order: they are not 'extant minutes', they were a supposed translation produced by HTM-Boston, which were disavowed by members of the Synod. Fr. Averky (of blessed memory) of Jordanville told me some years ago that Gregory (Grabbe) did remove Fr. Augustine's name from the directory for ROCA &amp;quot;on his own initiative&amp;quot;. It was not something accepted by the Synod, which is why he was still a priest under Bp. Hilarion (Kapral) after Gregory (Grabbe) had left ROCOR. But, no one has ever claimed (not the least Fr. Augustine) that he had left ROCOR. Documenting all 11 years is unnecessary: he was ROCOR in 1979, and still ROCOR in 1989 - and he didn't have to be 'received back'. The same happened with Fr. James of Christminster - his name is till not on the 'directory' of ROCOR, but he is under a ROCOR bishop, and celebrates with a ROCOR antimins. This is the same history and traditions I was taught from 1999 on: both by clergy, monks, and laymen who were either connected with Jordanville, HTM before it left ROCOR, and the various ROCOR WRITE works. It has often been the case that Western Rite works in the Russian church were not listed in the Russian directories (used by Russian laity) - as the Western rite works were either small monastic works, or tasked with missions: not chaplaincy to the Russians. Not being in the directory doesn't mean you aren't in the Church: having the bishop still visit, and giving an antimins: that does. The Suaiden new version stands everything on its head I've *ever* heard from any ROCOR clergy. (And yes, as Fr. Lev says, Mount Royal and Dom Augustine were not connected with L'ECOF.) Joseph Suaiden's wish for a document opposing the ROAC document isn't going to happen - the tendency is to ignore bodies like ROAC. And again, most documentation isn't online. And yes, what Bishop-Elect Fr. John R. Shaw knows about the attempt to hijack ROCOR by HTM is relevant - as the unsuccessful attempt to get rid of Fr. Augustine, and the fake 'ban' on Western rite show (for that matter, Fr. Ambrose (Young) has also written extensively on this attempt by HTM, wherein there was much published in the name of ROCOR that wasn't ROCOR speaking. Notice - you can't find that 1979 'document' on the ROCOR website: you have to go elsewhere to dig it up? An official website may be a valid website for the organization it represents: but not necessarily when speaking of other bodies. And, just because a resource isn't online doesn't mean that it shouldn't be reflected. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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::::If I have to say it 50 times, this is not a ROAC document, because when it was written there was no ROAC.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::You say the ban is &amp;quot;fake&amp;quot;. Prove it.  The document I am citing was distributed to every single priest of the ROCOR when it was printed. Where is there a public retraction of this on part of the declarations made at Synod in 1978, NOT 1979?&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Aristibule is asking me to accept his propositions on faith. I was about to get the ROCOR directories for the period and now he is admitting neither priest was in them, but they were really &amp;quot;part of Synod anyway&amp;quot;.  How do we know? We know otherwise because of documentation. And if we have to go there due to the question of Fr Augustine, we will.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::None of the newsletters were put up because none of them were computerized documents. Early versions of the Synod sites cited some of the information, but no one attempted to put up all the documentation until it was possible-- but then it became inconvenient to the purpose of union. But this is neither here nor there.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::That would be fair enough if that was a &amp;quot;ROAC&amp;quot; position-- but it isn't!  The &amp;quot;ROAC&amp;quot; page in question the document is listed from is an archive of the official newsletters of Bp Gregory (Grabbe) at Synod known as the  &amp;quot;NEWSLETTER OF THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC AND FOREIGN RELATIONS&amp;quot; and the unofficial newsletters of Matushka Anastasia (Shatiloff) known as &amp;quot;Church News&amp;quot; from 1975 to 2005. The documents are not altered, but simply .pdf copies of the original typewritten and xeroxed files and are the same documents sent out to the clergy from Synod, which any honest ROCOR priest from the time would easily admit (whether he had a high opinion of them or not is another matter altogether).  As I pointed out repeatedly, the ROAC did not exist in any form when these documents were written, so they can't be called &amp;quot;ROAC documents&amp;quot;, and are listed on the document archive under &amp;quot;HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad&amp;quot;.  If Aristibule wishes to claim they were altered (which he isn't-- he is claiming they were written by HTM) then I ask him to demonstrate it. But since he has simply tried to delete the reference, I am a little confused as to how I can prove the reference is really a ROCOR source. If I get an identical copy from a ROCOR priest and scan it, can't it simply be said that I am &amp;quot;copying the ROAC document&amp;quot;, to the point of the absurd?&lt;br /&gt;
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::::There are 24 declarations of that Synod meeting in 1978. Almost 10 involve actions with Bishops. Did HTM simply make that all up? Were they responsible for the glorification of Blessed Xenia which was the first declaration of the meeting? --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 23:32, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Disclaimer: I have no way to know how to interpret the claims made by Joseph and Aristibule since I am ignorant of the history of the WRITE and ROCOR.  However, I am concerned with the idea expressed here and elsewhere online that HTM managed to carry out some kind of all-encompassing conspiracy to control, edit, and manipulate all information emanating out to the public in some attempt to control the Synod, in order to do various nefarious things that the Russian bishops just would have not otherwise done.  Does anyone have any concrete evidence for this assertion? What did Fr Alexy Young write about it and where can we find these writings, and why should we consider him a trustworthy source on HTM considering his known affinity for Platina, who were engaged in a dispute with HTM all throughout the 1970's? Where are the responses by others to HTM from the 1970's against these attempts? Making this blanket claim seems to suggest that the entire episcopate of ROCOR was too ignorant, feeble, brainwashed, or misinformed to handle this monastery as it carried out this massive campaign throughout the 1970's. I'd like to see some concrete proof of this claim that HTM was involved in all of this.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I am also confused why this keeps being referred to as a ROAC document when it is merely hosted on a ROAC site.--[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 00:02, August 4, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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A private message from the ROCOR priest corrected me on one matter: it was not Bp Gregory (Grabbe) that removed Fr. Augustine's name from the directory. It was Fr. Gregory Williams of HTM-Boston (without Synodal permission). I also have personal accounts of ROCOR clergy visiting Mount Royal in 1984 and it being ROCOR, and again Bp. Hilarion serving Western Rite Vespers there again in the late 1980s. Private interviews, emails, letters - are all material that may be cited according to any style manual that I know of. AFAIK, it was only the one matter of the Western Rite that appeared in that 'translation' out of HTM that was disavowed by members of the Synod actually present at that meeting.  [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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How incredibly convenient!  Now Fr Gregory Williams (who was not part of HTM-Boston and did not leave  ROCOR until the union of 2007) &amp;quot;removed the names from the directory&amp;quot; and Bishop Gregory Grabbe didn't recognize him.  All of this was controlled by HTM. You realize St John of Kronsdadt Press produced the OFFICIAL directory of the ROCOR until 2006 (AND the quoted page on Father Augustine that you cited)?  &lt;br /&gt;
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Can you prove Fr Gregory was under HTM at all? No. He did not leave in 1986, and was not part of HOCNA at all.  &lt;br /&gt;
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But you have loads of &amp;quot;personal accounts&amp;quot;.  How nice. &lt;br /&gt;
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And AMAZINGLY, when confronted with the ugly possibility that by simply brushing off the Synodal declarations as &amp;quot;written by HTM&amp;quot;, you ascribed the glorification of St Xenia of Petersburg to HTM, you decide to note that they &amp;quot;snuck in a declaration&amp;quot; which was &amp;quot;disavowed by the members of the Synod&amp;quot; with NO PROOF, NO CITATIONS, AND NO SIGNATURES. I have already accepted the possibility (not the proof, as you've provided none) that Fr Augustine rejoined the Synod in '89, so why would Bp Hilarion showing up there around that time to receive him be relevant?  And how were all these people involved? Maybe they were all secretly in ROAC, which didn't exist then....--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:00, August 4, 2008 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Western_Rite_and_Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=73911</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite and Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Western_Rite_and_Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=73911"/>
				<updated>2008-08-04T00:04:11Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;== An Editorial, Not an Entry ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The original version of this page represents a blog entry or a Milan Synod editorial, not a Wikipage of any sort. It is factually erroneous, self-contradictory, poorly written, and violates NPV standards.&lt;br /&gt;
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The article claims Western Rite parishes make up a &amp;quot;substantial portion&amp;quot; of Old Calendarists; in fact, &amp;quot;Numerically, Western-rite Old calendar communities outnumber every other jurisdiction of traditionalist Orthodox communities in the United States.&amp;quot; If this were true, it would mean there are more Western Rite Old Calendarists than Byzantines in ROCOR, Moscow, Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Jerusalem Patriarchate, not to mention the schismatic &amp;quot;Greek Old Calendarists.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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It then claims, &amp;quot;There are parishes under the [[Orthodox Church of France]] using the Old Calendar (this is not the case, according to a priest of L'ECOF, in France).&amp;quot; Well, which is it?&lt;br /&gt;
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Then it falsely asserts, &amp;quot;some under the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] using the [[Sarum Rite]], though how important the use of the Old Calendar is among them is the subject of debate.&amp;quot; First, Fr. James Deschene and Fr. Anthony Nelson are Old Calendarists who use the traditional Liturgy of St. Gregory. Secondly, there is no &amp;quot;debate&amp;quot; as to the obedience of Frs. James, Anthony, Michael (of St. Petroc), Barry, nor the ROCOR faithful. &lt;br /&gt;
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The rest of the article is a long editorial pushing an agenda: to inveigh against the canonical Western Rite. There are alleged philosophies that supposedly &amp;quot;color&amp;quot; the views of WRO. That Western Rite parishes would be reabsorbed by Rome, Canterbury, and/or Antioch &amp;quot;was an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion with the Antiochians.&amp;quot; (!) There is alleged &amp;quot;hostility&amp;quot; between Old Calendarists and Antiochians (news to Fr. James and Fr. Paul Schneirla), etc., etc.&lt;br /&gt;
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It is merely an editorial proselytizing for the Milan Synod, or at least besmirching canonical Western Rite Orthodoxy. Either way, it has no business here. I've edited it as much as the facts will support, but I don't know if the stub will support a full article or if this stub should just be deleted, probably the latter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:28, June 24, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Just as a note:  ''[[Old Calendarist]]'' is used on this site to refer to those groups which have broken communion with the mainstream Orthodox Church primarily or initially over the question of the calendar, not those mainstream Orthodox churches who happen to use the Julian calendar and remain in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:22, June 25, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I note nearly all the same inaccuracies were restored. (It was &amp;quot;an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion&amp;quot; that AWRV parishes would be reabsorbed by the Papacy, Canterbury, and/or the Anglican Continuum? A most indefensible of many such assertions in this editorial. I wonder where one could verify how many parishes the Old Calendarists have overall (all synods), and how many are Western Rite? The assertion that there are more WR GOCs than ER GOCs seems dubious.  --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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It is statistically correct, since I said that GOC's in the United States and Western Europe were outnumbered. That is absolutely correct, and if you don't believe me, please count the number of diaspora parishes among the GOC's. Milan's parishes in America outnumber the GOC's of Chrysostomos, Andreas, Maximos, and the Russians' Valentine's, Tikhon's, and Bartholemew's combined. Those are usually the recognized GOC's in the country, save for HOCNA, which uses inflated numbers.&lt;br /&gt;
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Count them if you do not believe me.  --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Of course, not all Milan Synod groups are Western Rite. (And I am told HOCNA is not alone in inflating its numbers.) Were one to count actual WR groups in the Milan Synod, would these outnumber all the Old Calendarist churches combined (including any Old Calendarists of Romania, Bulgaria, etc., ''if'' they have churches in these territories)? If so, how might one VERIFY this? The claim seems questionable. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 02:59, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I will not waste my time: however, that's exactly my point. Both the jurisdictions you mention have NO parishes in Western Europe or America. Please start counting. Thank you. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 04:18, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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There was NO editorial.&lt;br /&gt;
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Response: 1) there IS an Old Calendar parish under L'ECOF: Paraclete Church in the US.&lt;br /&gt;
2) I was only referring to Old Calendarist communities, not to ROCOR (which has 2 Western Rite parishes in America) nor the AWRV.&lt;br /&gt;
3) The subject of debate was the fact that some Western rite communities in ROCOR have used the New Calendar.&lt;br /&gt;
4) I was not inveighing against anything but discussing two different mindsets. The intolerance of one has shown its ugly face here.  You will not delete my work to promote your agenda. I shall remind you once, Deacon, that even among the Antiochians, patience for such abuses as promoting Anglicans as Orthodox saints grows ever thinner.  For those who don't know what I am talking about? http://bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com/2008/07/king-charles-i-saint-of-awrv-part-ii.html&lt;br /&gt;
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Trust me, even canonical Orthodox agree with me on some of these matters, because they love Orthodoxy. You don't have to be an Old Calendarist Zealot to see what you are trying to cover up is wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
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Unless I am banned, I will put this back and continue to do so.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 19:57, July 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Don't tempt fate!  :)  I don't know the state of your emotions/soul/etc., but I can say that your language is getting a bit heated.  Please calm it down and don't make threats.&lt;br /&gt;
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: I honestly can't understand why it is that the articles on the WR so often seem to draw such controversy.  In any event, please note that turning these articles into debate grounds will necessitate drastically reducing their content to conform to our rules on controversial topics (i.e., no original research; only reliable, third-party, published sources).  If y'all don't want that, I suggest everyone find a way to work together in a calm manner.  Thanks!  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:00, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::On reading this article, I was confused...then I realised something.  There's _very_ little in this article that has anything to do with Old Calendarists and the Western Rite.  Lots to do with the philosophies of the WR, motives...but the title, as I understand it, is rather misleading, and refers to - at most - the introduction and one or two paragraphs. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 00:12, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::That's it, exactly. As I wrote, this is merely private opinion about WR. And OrthodoxWiki is not the place for private opinions. I've edited it, attempting to make this read more like an encyclopedia entry then a private blog. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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You once again deleted the whole article. It seems your &amp;quot;full of anti-WR screeds&amp;quot; argument is gaining ground, although I must point out again that the article is about mindsets and should be subjected to further revision. However, you made clear at the outset that you don't want these words to exist at all.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I did not delete the entire article but preserved as much as could be readily verified and considered on-topic (which, I grant, was very little). The moderators have noted your opinions of the &amp;quot;mindsets&amp;quot; is not really part of the topic, and as has been noted, doesn't seem to accurately reflect anyone's thinking except the author's. Beyond that, the article erroneously claims ROCOR has only Sarum Rite WRITE parishes (there is also Christminster); the wording implies these ROCOR churches do not care about Old Calendar use (false); and seems to be stating Antioch has already determined to hand over its WR parishes to Rome, Canterbury, and the Anglican Continuum (Really? Source?). I am given to understand elsewhere you have accused OrthodoxWiki of trying to &amp;quot;shut down the discussion&amp;quot; or some-such by editing your article. But OrthodoxWiki is not a discussion forum; it's a place for uninformed readers to find verifiable facts. This entry, as you keep reposting it, may express your views, and inaccurate as I think they are, you are welcome to do express them in this country -- but continually reposting these kinds of blog-entry thoughts is inconsistent with the purpose and standards of OrthodoxWiki. I will make one final reversion and leave the rest to the moderators. (Sigh...) --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 02:59, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Anyone can objectively look at the history of your edits and easily see you are deleting the entire article, and worse, placing a subjective commentary of one or two sentences in its place. I can prove it by dissecting it here, it's short.&lt;br /&gt;
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''Some '''[[Old Calendarists]]''' in the United States have approved the formation of '''[[Western Rite|Western-rite communities]]''', though they are currently far less numerous than their counterparts in the [http://www.antiochian.org/Western-Rite Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate].'' &lt;br /&gt;
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Uncertain, since we have no clear numbers of existing parishes in the vicariate. In fact, the number of Milan parishes rivals the number of those in the vicariate. However, since this isn't an article about the vicariate, but about &amp;quot;Western Rite and Old Calendarists&amp;quot;, I opted not to make such a comparison except where relevant.&lt;br /&gt;
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''These parishes under the [[Holy Synod of Milan]] are former members of the Old Catholic/''vagante'' movement.'' &lt;br /&gt;
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This is simply false, since you do not know the history of many of the parishes; nor is that universally true. Nor is it relevant, since I was talking about the history of the parishes and their eventual union with the Old Calendar Church in the Milan Synod.  Certainly, if you wanted to mention they were of questionable canonicity (as were many of your own parishes, since they all knew each other then) you could have done so in the article. But that would be self-defeating, I assume.&lt;br /&gt;
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''There is one American parish under the [[Orthodox Church of France]] using the Old Calendar and some under the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] using the [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Sarum Liturgy], [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm The English Liturgy], and the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]. Specifically, ROCOR's Western Rite includes Christ the Savior Monastery (Hamilton, Ontario, Canada), and St. Petroc Monastery (Tasmania) and its dependencies.''&lt;br /&gt;
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We have already noted that including ROCOR has some historical value, but it is far from the only church using the old calendar. As well, the Synod banned the use (temporarily) of Western rites in 1973.  So you may wish to stop treading where you know not.&lt;br /&gt;
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I should also add that what I've commented on is in fact all you left. Exactly three sentences. You say &amp;quot;I did not delete the entire article but preserved as much as could be readily verified and considered on-topic (which, I grant, was very little)&amp;quot;.  Now, while it could be argued there are opinions in this piece (I respectfully disagree) I don't think any objective reader could say that there were only three &amp;quot;verifiable sentences&amp;quot;, all of which, oddly, you wrote. Even more so, no objective reader could say they are on-topic.  So again I am defying your &amp;quot;edit&amp;quot;. Anyone who looks at the edit history sees I ignore edits on my work.  But you are not acting as an editor, but a grand inquisitor. Reading the beginning of this talk, we can see the lengths travelled to justify this deletion (referring to Serbian Orthodox as &amp;quot;Old Calendarists&amp;quot;, et cetera). I am leaving this up to the moderation team as well. And if you take it out again, I will again restore it. Until you deal with facts, and not try to rewrite them, I will answer you bluntly.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 04:18, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: The ROCOR Synod did not ban Western Rite in 1973. The 'ban' came out of HTM and was told to people as having been an act of Synod. In any case, in 1975 Abp Nikon Rklitsky (contrary to HTM's psuedo-ban) received Mount Royal monastery in New York from the Moscow Patriarchate - which was supported by the Synod. It never would have happened if the Holy Synod of ROCOR had actually produced any such document. Whether ROCOR should be included at all is probably pov - as ROCOR was never part of the Old Calendarist movement (Moscow is still Old Calendar, as is ROCOR post-rapprochment - 'Old Calendarism' is more of a phenomena with those churches affected by the New Calendar.) Some Old Calendarists were inside ROCOR, but ROCOR as a whole was never Old Calendarist itself - rather, it was the keeper of the true Russian tradition (which, it so happens, includes Western Rite: &amp;quot;It was Western rite in 19th c. Russia!&amp;quot;) An implication of a difference between ROCOR today and ROCOR of a few years ago is *extremely* pov - especially as the mainstream understanding that ROCOR is the same body, in continuity, and has only changed in restoring concelebration between its hierarchy. [[User: Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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I admit error. I was relying on memory. It did not ban WRite in 1973. It banned it in 1978 in their own Synodal documents.&lt;br /&gt;
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If I could figure out how to put a footnote on this, the text is here of all the Synodal resolutions. Perhaps you should read them, unless you think HTM wrote them all.&lt;br /&gt;
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http://roacusa.org/1.DoFRotSoBotROCoRNewsletter/1979/DoFR19790221.PDF&lt;br /&gt;
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--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:33, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: That's my impression, as well.  It seems to me that most of this analytical material should be elsewhere, though I'm not really sure where.  &lt;br /&gt;
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::: We really need someone who can be our ''de facto'' Sysop In Charge of WR Stuff.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:14, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: I think that this article is a bit of personal ideology - I don't know that it accurately represents the approach of any group. It sure doesn't represent ROCOR (our Holy Synod's ukases on Western Rite do). Personally, my vote for a Sysop for WR would be someone who knew those involved with the Western Rite (AWRV, ROCOR, MP) and has access to the clergy and the archival material.I know that Fr. Michael of Saint Petroc monastery has done some editing here - he might be someone to ask (though he is often busy.) But, he does have the breadth of knowledge. Otherwise, Willibrord if pretty fair, for Byzantine rite clergy.  ... back to an earlier question: why the subject attracts controversy... mostly because there are a few small groups external to the Western rite that have particular agendas, and hope to use (or abuse) Western rite towards their own goals. IF Orthodox Wiki is an encyclopedia of Orthodoxy, it should represent the accepted majority view of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy: at this point, that is the Russian Western Rite and the Antiochian Western Rite. Domination and harassment from other parties is mostly what makes us Western Rite Orthodox come here - hoping at the least to defend against (yet again) more attacks, misrepresentations, or to tie up our thinly-spread resources on controversial argumentation. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Aristibule has it just right. This is private opinion and does not accurately represent anyone's views. This advocacy and private opinion simply has no place on OrthodoxWiki. Incidentally, Aristibule would be a great Sysop for WR matters; he's proven his knowledge and fairness throughout. (See the discussion section of any WR article, or how he has set the record straight on William Henry Francis Brothers' legacy.) --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I'd be putting some of it in [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]] or [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]] articles (the bits that aren't there already, anyway), but a lot of it is not universally accepted (thinking of the the 'catastrophist' and 'developmental' positions) and would make very good opinion pieces, rather than encyclopaedia articles, IMHO.  I think you may be right about the WR Sysop, though... &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I really don't like the idea of tearing apart the article. The two schools of thought are quite common throughout every text that discusses the schism from an Orthodox perspective.&lt;br /&gt;
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Er... well, it seemed like a good title. I was trying to explain the existence of Western Rite people in the Old Calendarists, but that might make a more confusing title.... &amp;quot;Philosophy of Western Rite Old Calendarism&amp;quot;? But then that would immediately make developmentalists mad at catastrophists... *sigh* well, I tried. &lt;br /&gt;
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On another note I vote for Fr Lev to be a Sysop (though he punished me on this article on the French Church thing). He seems to be balanced and knows this stuff. With respect to some of the other vocal WR people (not naming names) I notice a sort of &amp;quot;across the board&amp;quot; desire to control the flow of information rather than disseminate it, which I've seen in other places. That mentality should have no place in an encyclopedia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:28, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I think perhaps a [[Western Rite historical thought]] article (or something like that) might be useful, if only because the majority of this material does not bear directly on the Old Calendarist WR in its content.  (It ''informs'' what they do, to be sure, but so does the material in the [[Western Rite]] article itself, etc.)&lt;br /&gt;
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It's fine to disseminate information, but on OrthodoxWiki, that information is to be disseminated in an encyclopedic manner, which includes proper categorization and organization but also includes ''describing'' the value judgments of various notable groups rather than advocating them.&lt;br /&gt;
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It is true that the mainstream churches which have a WR (Antioch, Moscow) are going to be presented as the mainstream on OW, but that does not mean that every viewpoint that someone has within those churches is going to be presented as The Truth.  They should be presented in descriptive, not prescriptive or advocacy terms. &lt;br /&gt;
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Please keep in mind the [[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual#Controversial Subjects and Original Research|policy on controversial topics and original research]].  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:35, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Russian Orthodoxy and Western Rite==&lt;br /&gt;
The Russian Orthodox Western Rite outside of Europe did not go to the Ukrainians, it went to ROCOR with Mount Royal monastery. The misunderstanding may center around Francis Brothers - who was an Old Catholic bishop who got consecration in the 'Living Church', and was later received by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1962 as a priest. He left Orthodoxy within a year, and began to operate as an independent Old Catholic bishop after that time. Mount Royal monastery stayed with Orthodoxy, and did not follow Brothers. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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I didn't go into that here,however Metropolitan William did not claim to be Old Catholic, but Orthodox by the time of his death. He left the MP because he did not trust going to Soviet Russia to be ordained a Bishop. Those communities later joined the Milan Synod. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:48, July 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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You've been misinformed. Brothers did claim to be Old Catholic - from the time he left his priesthood in the Russian Orthodox Church, until his death - as the Metropolitan Archbishop of the Old Catholic Church in America. He had already gone to Soviet Russia before when he was 'consecrated' by the Living Church movement. Within a year of being received into Orthodoxy by Bp Dositheus (Russian Orthodox - not 'Living Church'), he left to perform Old Catholic consecrations as an Old Catholic bishop: unaware he had been elected as a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church. The leadership passed to Dom Augustine (Whitfield) who took the body into ROCOR - where it remains to this day. 'Metropolitan-Archbishop Brothers' most interesting activity was in Ecumenicism: where he supported the claims and ministry of &amp;quot;Father Divine&amp;quot;, as well as Billy Graham. The only contact with Orthodoxy he ever had was the one year he was a priest of Mount Royal under Bishop Dositheus. His 'communities' that joined the Milan Synod were Old Catholic, and never had Orthodox orders. The only community that he was ever associated with that became Orthodox was Mount Royal - and its former members (including novices) are to this day either still in ROCOR, the MP, or with the Antiochians. It helps to have access to archives - and the people who lived through it.You might find some illumination here:  http://sourcebook.oldcatholichistory.org/index.php?name=Sections&amp;amp;req=viewarticle&amp;amp;artid=75&amp;amp;page=1&lt;br /&gt;
  [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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Since we are currently locked in a debate about the current status of certain members of our Churches that are living I would venture to say that neither of us is acting objectively.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==France?==&lt;br /&gt;
I don't know why the Orthodox Church of France is mentioned in this article; they aren't Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 04:28, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I was under the impression that they were at one point on the Old Calendar-- since it appears one of their American parishes uses the Old Calendar.  That said, their history is very much tied into the history of the Russian Church Abroad as the ROCOR was beginning a period of deeper isolation from official Orthodoxy, which nurtured a catastrophist position.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 12:57, May 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I believe that France was New Calendar even while under the protection of Archibsihop (Saint) John Maximovitch and ROCOR. They were not the only ones in ROCOR using the New Calendar. More controversially, the Church of France follows the Western Paschalion. No parishes of the French Church in France are Old Calendar. The fact that there is an American parish that observes the Old Calendar is idiosyncratic, so I don't think France has a place in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 13:19, May 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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You may well be right, Father. I will check the history, and if this is the case, I think at the least that should be noted in every instance of the French Church's mention in the article as soon as humanly possible. I am loath to remove reference to them altogether, because the ideological stance of the French Church as against the stance of the more &amp;quot;mainline&amp;quot; Western rite groupings matches more the thinking that is found in Milan and ROCOR Sarum parishes (what I call &amp;quot;catastrophic&amp;quot;), which do use the Old Calendar.  (However, it should be noted that in those same circles I have heard the argument adduced that even before the schism, the French Church was using a pre-schism Roman Rite.) I may well be misreading them, however, and am open to correction. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 15:48, May 4, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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As of yesterday, I did ask the priest of L'ECOF in America if what you said was correct. I have corrected the page accordingly. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 00:23, May 15, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== ROCOR and ECOF ==&lt;br /&gt;
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This is grossly inaccurate: &amp;quot;In Europe, the ROCOR's role in the formation of the Church of France is undisputed, as the Church's existence was blessed by St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. However, the majority of the Church of France's parishes in France are on the New Calendar.&amp;quot; 1. The Church of France was established in 1936 by Moscow. It was over two decades before St John became the archpastor for ECOF. 2. I know of NO parish in ECOF (in France) that uses the Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 00:35, May 15, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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It is possible to just correct it.... L'ECOF had no Bishop until St John of Shanghai, and therefore couldn't perpetuate itself. As for the calendar, that was just a mistake. Will update accordingly.... --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:54, May 16, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Updated. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:58, May 16, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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It is not correct to say that the Church of France had no bishop until Archbishop (Saint) John (Maximovitch). The Church of France was under the PAtriarchate of Moscow, which has bishops. There is one and only one priest under the omophorion of the bishop of the Orthodox Church of France who uses an Old Calendar reckoning of the date, but I'm not sure this is what is conveyed by saying he is onl the Old Calendar. He follows the calendar of the Church of France, which is Western, only he observes this Western calendar 13 days after everyone else. In any event, the existence of one priest being given permission to so reckon the calendar doesn't warrant including France in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 20:13, July 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Relevance of text to title==&lt;br /&gt;
I reassert that considerable amounts of this article have nothing to do with the specific issue of the Western Rite and Old Calendarists.  There are five sections to this article:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Introduction - Mostly on topic.&lt;br /&gt;
*Difference in Mindset Among Western Rite Orthodox - Should be its own article.&lt;br /&gt;
*Suitability of Definitions - See above.&lt;br /&gt;
*History - The line about Overbeck is relevant to the previous section; the remainder is (or should be) covered in the history of Western Rite articles.&lt;br /&gt;
*Ecumenism and the Western Rite - Badly named, and needing an full rewrite.  There's a lot of prejoratives, in addition to discussion of 'Mainstream' Orthodox Churches, which should be, at most, peripherally in the article, if at all.&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;Catastrophist&amp;quot; Thought and Orthodox Traditionalism - Should be tied to the 'Difference in Mindset Among Western Rite Orthodox' article.&lt;br /&gt;
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I posit that this article should be two articles - one talking about WR and Old Calendarists (which would include ROCOR ''pre-reunification'', but not post), the other talking about different viewpoints on the Great Schism. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 05:19, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Should there, perhaps, be some form of documentation to his claims, as well? As Aristibule points out, this is both factually wrong and representative only of his own opinion. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:15, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I am providing more documentation to my claims than you are aware. I admit I was off by five years, but unlike Aristibule, I can admit when a document written by Synod was actually written by Synod, not trying to blame everything on HTM.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:28, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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THANK YOU! This was extremely constructive. I would be glad to try to see such a &amp;quot;split&amp;quot; occur if it would make this more useful to the wiki. I will look over &amp;quot;Ecumenism&amp;quot; section to see what can be done with it. (looking over it now, I can't find too much opinion, but much that can be seen as such without actual proof -- saying the MP abandoned the Western rite without proof seems opinionated- open to suggestions). Thank you very much. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 05:26, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I know that most discussion boards work differently, but OW general practise has been that everything under a header is written chronologically - note the 'thank you' para now doesn't relate to what it used to.  The reason for this is simple - it means that other people can follow the discussion (right now it's very difficult to follow, which is why it's just been the two people involved).&lt;br /&gt;
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If you feel that something is, although hypothetically possible, just plain unlikely, there is a template that you can insert into the text: &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;{{citation}}&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;, which will pop up with a nice &amp;quot;{{citation}}&amp;quot;.  If there's no documentation after, say, a week, then one can legitimate pulling it down without revert wars. And, if there's documentation, link to it or use Wiki's in-text referencing with footnotes - ideally to a document that is online, but if it's not online then we probably can't do much about that. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 21:47, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I haven't had to say this before, but my personal philosophy is that 10 reverts inside an hour is, well, unsane.  I'm not worried about seeming like I'm taking sides because I figure that there's a 50/50 chance that either side's view will stay on the page (for now).&lt;br /&gt;
:Please cite your ''documented'' evidence.  &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 22:00, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree. I cited, in this talk page (I still don't know how to footnote), an issue of a newsletter produced at Synod by Father George-- later Bp Gregory (Grabbe) -- that included the ROCOR 1978 resolutions. Since then, I have been answered with personal opinions. I've not stated my opinion on it, but simply noted its existence.  I was told it was &amp;quot;ROAC point of view&amp;quot; (because I took it off an archive run by ROAC of all the newsletters from the 70's onward) but have not been given a single documented proof that these minutes were forgeries. Then I was told HTM forged it. By contrast, every member of ROCOR received these informational newsletters which contained Synodal archives and other news stories from Synod.&lt;br /&gt;
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The reason this is being &amp;quot;covered up&amp;quot; is simply because the new &amp;quot;official story&amp;quot; of Christminster is that they were connected to Mt Royal which came to ROCOR in '75, and then in 1993 were blessed to move. The real story is that Fr Augustine left ROCOR under pressure after 1978, went to the Church of France and other places and the real *official* beginning of Christminster is 1993.&lt;br /&gt;
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However, cover-ups have no place in encylopedias.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:10, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The citations Joseph Suaiden provided are circular - the 1979 purported decision was never acted upon and are believed to be spurious (as Bishop-Elect John R. Shaw has written elsewhere online.) The burden of proof is rather with the claim that the ROAC document was both a good translation, and accurately reflects the actual decisions of the ROCOR synod. Fr. Augustine, however, never left ROCOR - which is why Dom James was able to join him back East and found Christminster in 1993. Mount Royal was in Woodstock with the MP in 1962-63, NYC with the MP from 1963-1975, and in NY and a succession of other places from 1975-1988. Fr. Augustine was still with ROCOR (see his article &amp;quot;Valid Orders&amp;quot;  in the ROCOR publication &amp;quot;Orthodox America&amp;quot; Issue 88, Vol. IX, No. 8, March, 1989 - the year of his retirement to Florida. http://www.roca.org/OA/88/88n.htm )  This isn't a 'new' story, but simply the continuous story. The documentation exists - but it isn't all online. The fact that someone can pop up some websites, and make various new claims doesn't make it documentation. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;And in NY and a succession of other places from 1975-1988&amp;quot; is exactly my point. By 1979, he was NOT recognized at Synod. Bp Gregory did not even regard his existence, let alone his membership in Synod. You are pointing over a gap of 11 years-- and have not even regarded the fact that in practice the dictate was followed. The fact that Fr John thinks EVERYTHING from the Sorrowful Epistles to the Anathema against Ecumenism was ghostwritten by HTM is not relevant to the fact that the official ROCOR position, openly stated, was that Western rite was banned in '78, and I do not deny that this prohibition was relaxed later.  You are attesting to the factuality of this article, not the reverse.&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:36, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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P.S. Please cite what your argument that the &amp;quot;ROAC translation&amp;quot; (again, made at Synod in ROCOR by the secretary of the Synod a decade before ROAC existed, and while ROAC's primate was with the Moscow Patriarchate) of the Synodal decisions were never accepted with a Synodal document attesting to the same. Thanks. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:43, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I don't have an interest in the Old Calendarist issues here, but I do want to say that I was active in the Church of France in America from late 1992 on, and served as the bishop's vicar for America beginning in early 1993. No one connected to Mt Royal, including Dom Augustine, was in any way connected to the Church of France at that time or since. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 22:58, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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The 11 years in question were 1978-1989. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 23:04, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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:A lot of the dispute seems to me to be about whether the extant minutes are valid minutes (or something along those lines).  Remember, OW is able to describe an issue without taking sides in it (e.g. 'the extant minutes say ''x'', but objections from ''name'' have been recorded regarding ''problem with extant minutes'').&lt;br /&gt;
:An official website is a valid resource, no matter who runs it, but it does have limitations.  It doesn't matter if (to use the pertinent example) Suaiden is the webmaster of the ROAC website, if official things are on the ROAC website, then we can cite it - but that only goes towards proving that ROAC puts these ideas forward - but that doesn't, in and of itself, make it correct (and the same is true of ROCOR, AWRV, etc).  If there is a dispute amongst official sources, then I see no other course for OW than to document the claims on both sides in as NPOV a manner as possible.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Just a point of order: they are not 'extant minutes', they were a supposed translation produced by HTM-Boston, which were disavowed by members of the Synod. Fr. Averky (of blessed memory) of Jordanville told me some years ago that Gregory (Grabbe) did remove Fr. Augustine's name from the directory for ROCA &amp;quot;on his own initiative&amp;quot;. It was not something accepted by the Synod, which is why he was still a priest under Bp. Hilarion (Kapral) after Gregory (Grabbe) had left ROCOR. But, no one has ever claimed (not the least Fr. Augustine) that he had left ROCOR. Documenting all 11 years is unnecessary: he was ROCOR in 1979, and still ROCOR in 1989 - and he didn't have to be 'received back'. The same happened with Fr. James of Christminster - his name is till not on the 'directory' of ROCOR, but he is under a ROCOR bishop, and celebrates with a ROCOR antimins. This is the same history and traditions I was taught from 1999 on: both by clergy, monks, and laymen who were either connected with Jordanville, HTM before it left ROCOR, and the various ROCOR WRITE works. It has often been the case that Western Rite works in the Russian church were not listed in the Russian directories (used by Russian laity) - as the Western rite works were either small monastic works, or tasked with missions: not chaplaincy to the Russians. Not being in the directory doesn't mean you aren't in the Church: having the bishop still visit, and giving an antimins: that does. The Suaiden new version stands everything on its head I've *ever* heard from any ROCOR clergy. (And yes, as Fr. Lev says, Mount Royal and Dom Augustine were not connected with L'ECOF.) Joseph Suaiden's wish for a document opposing the ROAC document isn't going to happen - the tendency is to ignore bodies like ROAC. And again, most documentation isn't online. And yes, what Bishop-Elect Fr. John R. Shaw knows about the attempt to hijack ROCOR by HTM is relevant - as the unsuccessful attempt to get rid of Fr. Augustine, and the fake 'ban' on Western rite show (for that matter, Fr. Ambrose (Young) has also written extensively on this attempt by HTM, wherein there was much published in the name of ROCOR that wasn't ROCOR speaking. Notice - you can't find that 1979 'document' on the ROCOR website: you have to go elsewhere to dig it up? An official website may be a valid website for the organization it represents: but not necessarily when speaking of other bodies. And, just because a resource isn't online doesn't mean that it shouldn't be reflected. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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::::If I have to say it 50 times, this is not a ROAC document, because when it was written there was no ROAC.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::You say the ban is &amp;quot;fake&amp;quot;. Prove it.  The document I am citing was distributed to every single priest of the ROCOR when it was printed. Where is there a public retraction of this on part of the declarations made at Synod in 1978, NOT 1979?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Aristibule is asking me to accept his propositions on faith. I was about to get the ROCOR directories for the period and now he is admitting neither priest was in them, but they were really &amp;quot;part of Synod anyway&amp;quot;.  How do we know? We know otherwise because of documentation. And if we have to go there due to the question of Fr Augustine, we will.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::None of the newsletters were put up because none of them were computerized documents. Early versions of the Synod sites cited some of the information, but no one attempted to put up all the documentation until it was possible-- but then it became inconvenient to the purpose of union. But this is neither here nor there.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That would be fair enough if that was a &amp;quot;ROAC&amp;quot; position-- but it isn't!  The &amp;quot;ROAC&amp;quot; page in question the document is listed from is an archive of the official newsletters of Bp Gregory (Grabbe) at Synod known as the  &amp;quot;NEWSLETTER OF THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC AND FOREIGN RELATIONS&amp;quot; and the unofficial newsletters of Matushka Anastasia (Shatiloff) known as &amp;quot;Church News&amp;quot; from 1975 to 2005. The documents are not altered, but simply .pdf copies of the original typewritten and xeroxed files and are the same documents sent out to the clergy from Synod, which any honest ROCOR priest from the time would easily admit (whether he had a high opinion of them or not is another matter altogether).  As I pointed out repeatedly, the ROAC did not exist in any form when these documents were written, so they can't be called &amp;quot;ROAC documents&amp;quot;, and are listed on the document archive under &amp;quot;HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad&amp;quot;.  If Aristibule wishes to claim they were altered (which he isn't-- he is claiming they were written by HTM) then I ask him to demonstrate it. But since he has simply tried to delete the reference, I am a little confused as to how I can prove the reference is really a ROCOR source. If I get an identical copy from a ROCOR priest and scan it, can't it simply be said that I am &amp;quot;copying the ROAC document&amp;quot;, to the point of the absurd?&lt;br /&gt;
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::::There are 24 declarations of that Synod meeting in 1978. Almost 10 involve actions with Bishops. Did HTM simply make that all up? Were they responsible for the glorification of Blessed Xenia which was the first declaration of the meeting? --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 23:32, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Disclaimer: I have no way to know how to interpret the claims made by Joseph and Aristibule since I am ignorant of the history of the WRITE and ROCOR.  However, I am concerned with the idea expressed here and elsewhere online that HTM managed to carry out some kind of all-encompassing conspiracy to control, edit, and manipulate all information emanating out to the public in some attempt to control the Synod, in order to do various nefarious things that the Russian bishops just would have not otherwise done.  Does anyone have any concrete evidence for this assertion? What did Fr Alexy Young write about it and where can we find these writings, and why should we consider him a trustworthy source on HTM considering his known affinity for Platina, who were engaged in a dispute with HTM all throughout the 1970's? Where are the responses by others to HTM from the 1970's against these attempts? Making this blanket claim seems to suggest that the entire episcopate of ROCOR was too ignorant, feeble, brainwashed, or misinformed to handle this monastery as it carried out this massive campaign throughout the 1970's. I'd like to see some concrete proof of this claim.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I am also confused why this keeps being referred to as a ROAC document when it is merely hosted on a ROAC site.--[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 00:02, August 4, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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A private message from the ROCOR priest corrected me on one matter: it was not Bp Gregory (Grabbe) that removed Fr. Augustine's name from the directory. It was Fr. Gregory Williams of HTM-Boston (without Synodal permission). I also have personal accounts of ROCOR clergy visiting Mount Royal in 1984 and it being ROCOR, and again Bp. Hilarion serving Western Rite Vespers there again in the late 1980s. Private interviews, emails, letters - are all material that may be cited according to any style manual that I know of. AFAIK, it was only the one matter of the Western Rite that appeared in that 'translation' out of HTM that was disavowed by members of the Synod actually present at that meeting.  [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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How incredibly convenient!  Now Fr Gregory Williams (who was not part of HTM-Boston and did not leave  ROCOR until the union of 2007) &amp;quot;removed the names from the directory&amp;quot; and Bishop Gregory Grabbe didn't recognize him.  All of this was controlled by HTM. You realize St John of Kronsdadt Press produced the OFFICIAL directory of the ROCOR until 2006 (AND the quoted page on Father Augustine that you cited)?  &lt;br /&gt;
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Can you prove Fr Gregory was under HTM at all? No. He did not leave in 1986, and was not part of HOCNA at all.  &lt;br /&gt;
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But you have loads of &amp;quot;personal accounts&amp;quot;.  How nice. &lt;br /&gt;
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And AMAZINGLY, when confronted with the ugly possibility that by simply brushing off the Synodal declarations as &amp;quot;written by HTM&amp;quot;, you ascribed the glorification of St Xenia of Petersburg to HTM, you decide to note that they &amp;quot;snuck in a declaration&amp;quot; which was &amp;quot;disavowed by the members of the Synod&amp;quot; with NO PROOF, NO CITATIONS, AND NO SIGNATURES. I have already accepted the possibility (not the proof, as you've provided none) that Fr Augustine rejoined the Synod in '89, so why would Bp Hilarion showing up there around that time to receive him be relevant?  And how were all these people involved? Maybe they were all secretly in ROAC, which didn't exist then....--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:00, August 4, 2008 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Western_Rite_and_Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=73910</id>
		<title>Talk:Western Rite and Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Western_Rite_and_Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=73910"/>
				<updated>2008-08-04T00:02:39Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;== An Editorial, Not an Entry ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The original version of this page represents a blog entry or a Milan Synod editorial, not a Wikipage of any sort. It is factually erroneous, self-contradictory, poorly written, and violates NPV standards.&lt;br /&gt;
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The article claims Western Rite parishes make up a &amp;quot;substantial portion&amp;quot; of Old Calendarists; in fact, &amp;quot;Numerically, Western-rite Old calendar communities outnumber every other jurisdiction of traditionalist Orthodox communities in the United States.&amp;quot; If this were true, it would mean there are more Western Rite Old Calendarists than Byzantines in ROCOR, Moscow, Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Jerusalem Patriarchate, not to mention the schismatic &amp;quot;Greek Old Calendarists.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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It then claims, &amp;quot;There are parishes under the [[Orthodox Church of France]] using the Old Calendar (this is not the case, according to a priest of L'ECOF, in France).&amp;quot; Well, which is it?&lt;br /&gt;
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Then it falsely asserts, &amp;quot;some under the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] using the [[Sarum Rite]], though how important the use of the Old Calendar is among them is the subject of debate.&amp;quot; First, Fr. James Deschene and Fr. Anthony Nelson are Old Calendarists who use the traditional Liturgy of St. Gregory. Secondly, there is no &amp;quot;debate&amp;quot; as to the obedience of Frs. James, Anthony, Michael (of St. Petroc), Barry, nor the ROCOR faithful. &lt;br /&gt;
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The rest of the article is a long editorial pushing an agenda: to inveigh against the canonical Western Rite. There are alleged philosophies that supposedly &amp;quot;color&amp;quot; the views of WRO. That Western Rite parishes would be reabsorbed by Rome, Canterbury, and/or Antioch &amp;quot;was an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion with the Antiochians.&amp;quot; (!) There is alleged &amp;quot;hostility&amp;quot; between Old Calendarists and Antiochians (news to Fr. James and Fr. Paul Schneirla), etc., etc.&lt;br /&gt;
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It is merely an editorial proselytizing for the Milan Synod, or at least besmirching canonical Western Rite Orthodoxy. Either way, it has no business here. I've edited it as much as the facts will support, but I don't know if the stub will support a full article or if this stub should just be deleted, probably the latter. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 23:28, June 24, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Just as a note:  ''[[Old Calendarist]]'' is used on this site to refer to those groups which have broken communion with the mainstream Orthodox Church primarily or initially over the question of the calendar, not those mainstream Orthodox churches who happen to use the Julian calendar and remain in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:22, June 25, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I note nearly all the same inaccuracies were restored. (It was &amp;quot;an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion&amp;quot; that AWRV parishes would be reabsorbed by the Papacy, Canterbury, and/or the Anglican Continuum? A most indefensible of many such assertions in this editorial. I wonder where one could verify how many parishes the Old Calendarists have overall (all synods), and how many are Western Rite? The assertion that there are more WR GOCs than ER GOCs seems dubious.  --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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It is statistically correct, since I said that GOC's in the United States and Western Europe were outnumbered. That is absolutely correct, and if you don't believe me, please count the number of diaspora parishes among the GOC's. Milan's parishes in America outnumber the GOC's of Chrysostomos, Andreas, Maximos, and the Russians' Valentine's, Tikhon's, and Bartholemew's combined. Those are usually the recognized GOC's in the country, save for HOCNA, which uses inflated numbers.&lt;br /&gt;
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Count them if you do not believe me.  --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Of course, not all Milan Synod groups are Western Rite. (And I am told HOCNA is not alone in inflating its numbers.) Were one to count actual WR groups in the Milan Synod, would these outnumber all the Old Calendarist churches combined (including any Old Calendarists of Romania, Bulgaria, etc., ''if'' they have churches in these territories)? If so, how might one VERIFY this? The claim seems questionable. Thanks.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 02:59, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I will not waste my time: however, that's exactly my point. Both the jurisdictions you mention have NO parishes in Western Europe or America. Please start counting. Thank you. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 04:18, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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There was NO editorial.&lt;br /&gt;
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Response: 1) there IS an Old Calendar parish under L'ECOF: Paraclete Church in the US.&lt;br /&gt;
2) I was only referring to Old Calendarist communities, not to ROCOR (which has 2 Western Rite parishes in America) nor the AWRV.&lt;br /&gt;
3) The subject of debate was the fact that some Western rite communities in ROCOR have used the New Calendar.&lt;br /&gt;
4) I was not inveighing against anything but discussing two different mindsets. The intolerance of one has shown its ugly face here.  You will not delete my work to promote your agenda. I shall remind you once, Deacon, that even among the Antiochians, patience for such abuses as promoting Anglicans as Orthodox saints grows ever thinner.  For those who don't know what I am talking about? http://bloggingthefraud.blogspot.com/2008/07/king-charles-i-saint-of-awrv-part-ii.html&lt;br /&gt;
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Trust me, even canonical Orthodox agree with me on some of these matters, because they love Orthodoxy. You don't have to be an Old Calendarist Zealot to see what you are trying to cover up is wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
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Unless I am banned, I will put this back and continue to do so.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 19:57, July 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Don't tempt fate!  :)  I don't know the state of your emotions/soul/etc., but I can say that your language is getting a bit heated.  Please calm it down and don't make threats.&lt;br /&gt;
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: I honestly can't understand why it is that the articles on the WR so often seem to draw such controversy.  In any event, please note that turning these articles into debate grounds will necessitate drastically reducing their content to conform to our rules on controversial topics (i.e., no original research; only reliable, third-party, published sources).  If y'all don't want that, I suggest everyone find a way to work together in a calm manner.  Thanks!  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:00, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::On reading this article, I was confused...then I realised something.  There's _very_ little in this article that has anything to do with Old Calendarists and the Western Rite.  Lots to do with the philosophies of the WR, motives...but the title, as I understand it, is rather misleading, and refers to - at most - the introduction and one or two paragraphs. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 00:12, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::That's it, exactly. As I wrote, this is merely private opinion about WR. And OrthodoxWiki is not the place for private opinions. I've edited it, attempting to make this read more like an encyclopedia entry then a private blog. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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You once again deleted the whole article. It seems your &amp;quot;full of anti-WR screeds&amp;quot; argument is gaining ground, although I must point out again that the article is about mindsets and should be subjected to further revision. However, you made clear at the outset that you don't want these words to exist at all.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I did not delete the entire article but preserved as much as could be readily verified and considered on-topic (which, I grant, was very little). The moderators have noted your opinions of the &amp;quot;mindsets&amp;quot; is not really part of the topic, and as has been noted, doesn't seem to accurately reflect anyone's thinking except the author's. Beyond that, the article erroneously claims ROCOR has only Sarum Rite WRITE parishes (there is also Christminster); the wording implies these ROCOR churches do not care about Old Calendar use (false); and seems to be stating Antioch has already determined to hand over its WR parishes to Rome, Canterbury, and the Anglican Continuum (Really? Source?). I am given to understand elsewhere you have accused OrthodoxWiki of trying to &amp;quot;shut down the discussion&amp;quot; or some-such by editing your article. But OrthodoxWiki is not a discussion forum; it's a place for uninformed readers to find verifiable facts. This entry, as you keep reposting it, may express your views, and inaccurate as I think they are, you are welcome to do express them in this country -- but continually reposting these kinds of blog-entry thoughts is inconsistent with the purpose and standards of OrthodoxWiki. I will make one final reversion and leave the rest to the moderators. (Sigh...) --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 02:59, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Anyone can objectively look at the history of your edits and easily see you are deleting the entire article, and worse, placing a subjective commentary of one or two sentences in its place. I can prove it by dissecting it here, it's short.&lt;br /&gt;
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''Some '''[[Old Calendarists]]''' in the United States have approved the formation of '''[[Western Rite|Western-rite communities]]''', though they are currently far less numerous than their counterparts in the [http://www.antiochian.org/Western-Rite Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate].'' &lt;br /&gt;
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Uncertain, since we have no clear numbers of existing parishes in the vicariate. In fact, the number of Milan parishes rivals the number of those in the vicariate. However, since this isn't an article about the vicariate, but about &amp;quot;Western Rite and Old Calendarists&amp;quot;, I opted not to make such a comparison except where relevant.&lt;br /&gt;
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''These parishes under the [[Holy Synod of Milan]] are former members of the Old Catholic/''vagante'' movement.'' &lt;br /&gt;
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This is simply false, since you do not know the history of many of the parishes; nor is that universally true. Nor is it relevant, since I was talking about the history of the parishes and their eventual union with the Old Calendar Church in the Milan Synod.  Certainly, if you wanted to mention they were of questionable canonicity (as were many of your own parishes, since they all knew each other then) you could have done so in the article. But that would be self-defeating, I assume.&lt;br /&gt;
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''There is one American parish under the [[Orthodox Church of France]] using the Old Calendar and some under the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] using the [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/sarum.htm Sarum Liturgy], [http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/english.htm The English Liturgy], and the [[Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great]]. Specifically, ROCOR's Western Rite includes Christ the Savior Monastery (Hamilton, Ontario, Canada), and St. Petroc Monastery (Tasmania) and its dependencies.''&lt;br /&gt;
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We have already noted that including ROCOR has some historical value, but it is far from the only church using the old calendar. As well, the Synod banned the use (temporarily) of Western rites in 1973.  So you may wish to stop treading where you know not.&lt;br /&gt;
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I should also add that what I've commented on is in fact all you left. Exactly three sentences. You say &amp;quot;I did not delete the entire article but preserved as much as could be readily verified and considered on-topic (which, I grant, was very little)&amp;quot;.  Now, while it could be argued there are opinions in this piece (I respectfully disagree) I don't think any objective reader could say that there were only three &amp;quot;verifiable sentences&amp;quot;, all of which, oddly, you wrote. Even more so, no objective reader could say they are on-topic.  So again I am defying your &amp;quot;edit&amp;quot;. Anyone who looks at the edit history sees I ignore edits on my work.  But you are not acting as an editor, but a grand inquisitor. Reading the beginning of this talk, we can see the lengths travelled to justify this deletion (referring to Serbian Orthodox as &amp;quot;Old Calendarists&amp;quot;, et cetera). I am leaving this up to the moderation team as well. And if you take it out again, I will again restore it. Until you deal with facts, and not try to rewrite them, I will answer you bluntly.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 04:18, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: The ROCOR Synod did not ban Western Rite in 1973. The 'ban' came out of HTM and was told to people as having been an act of Synod. In any case, in 1975 Abp Nikon Rklitsky (contrary to HTM's psuedo-ban) received Mount Royal monastery in New York from the Moscow Patriarchate - which was supported by the Synod. It never would have happened if the Holy Synod of ROCOR had actually produced any such document. Whether ROCOR should be included at all is probably pov - as ROCOR was never part of the Old Calendarist movement (Moscow is still Old Calendar, as is ROCOR post-rapprochment - 'Old Calendarism' is more of a phenomena with those churches affected by the New Calendar.) Some Old Calendarists were inside ROCOR, but ROCOR as a whole was never Old Calendarist itself - rather, it was the keeper of the true Russian tradition (which, it so happens, includes Western Rite: &amp;quot;It was Western rite in 19th c. Russia!&amp;quot;) An implication of a difference between ROCOR today and ROCOR of a few years ago is *extremely* pov - especially as the mainstream understanding that ROCOR is the same body, in continuity, and has only changed in restoring concelebration between its hierarchy. [[User: Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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I admit error. I was relying on memory. It did not ban WRite in 1973. It banned it in 1978 in their own Synodal documents.&lt;br /&gt;
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If I could figure out how to put a footnote on this, the text is here of all the Synodal resolutions. Perhaps you should read them, unless you think HTM wrote them all.&lt;br /&gt;
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http://roacusa.org/1.DoFRotSoBotROCoRNewsletter/1979/DoFR19790221.PDF&lt;br /&gt;
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--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:33, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: That's my impression, as well.  It seems to me that most of this analytical material should be elsewhere, though I'm not really sure where.  &lt;br /&gt;
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::: We really need someone who can be our ''de facto'' Sysop In Charge of WR Stuff.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 00:14, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: I think that this article is a bit of personal ideology - I don't know that it accurately represents the approach of any group. It sure doesn't represent ROCOR (our Holy Synod's ukases on Western Rite do). Personally, my vote for a Sysop for WR would be someone who knew those involved with the Western Rite (AWRV, ROCOR, MP) and has access to the clergy and the archival material.I know that Fr. Michael of Saint Petroc monastery has done some editing here - he might be someone to ask (though he is often busy.) But, he does have the breadth of knowledge. Otherwise, Willibrord if pretty fair, for Byzantine rite clergy.  ... back to an earlier question: why the subject attracts controversy... mostly because there are a few small groups external to the Western rite that have particular agendas, and hope to use (or abuse) Western rite towards their own goals. IF Orthodox Wiki is an encyclopedia of Orthodoxy, it should represent the accepted majority view of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy: at this point, that is the Russian Western Rite and the Antiochian Western Rite. Domination and harassment from other parties is mostly what makes us Western Rite Orthodox come here - hoping at the least to defend against (yet again) more attacks, misrepresentations, or to tie up our thinly-spread resources on controversial argumentation. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Aristibule has it just right. This is private opinion and does not accurately represent anyone's views. This advocacy and private opinion simply has no place on OrthodoxWiki. Incidentally, Aristibule would be a great Sysop for WR matters; he's proven his knowledge and fairness throughout. (See the discussion section of any WR article, or how he has set the record straight on William Henry Francis Brothers' legacy.) --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I'd be putting some of it in [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]] or [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]] articles (the bits that aren't there already, anyway), but a lot of it is not universally accepted (thinking of the the 'catastrophist' and 'developmental' positions) and would make very good opinion pieces, rather than encyclopaedia articles, IMHO.  I think you may be right about the WR Sysop, though... &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I really don't like the idea of tearing apart the article. The two schools of thought are quite common throughout every text that discusses the schism from an Orthodox perspective.&lt;br /&gt;
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Er... well, it seemed like a good title. I was trying to explain the existence of Western Rite people in the Old Calendarists, but that might make a more confusing title.... &amp;quot;Philosophy of Western Rite Old Calendarism&amp;quot;? But then that would immediately make developmentalists mad at catastrophists... *sigh* well, I tried. &lt;br /&gt;
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On another note I vote for Fr Lev to be a Sysop (though he punished me on this article on the French Church thing). He seems to be balanced and knows this stuff. With respect to some of the other vocal WR people (not naming names) I notice a sort of &amp;quot;across the board&amp;quot; desire to control the flow of information rather than disseminate it, which I've seen in other places. That mentality should have no place in an encyclopedia. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:28, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I think perhaps a [[Western Rite historical thought]] article (or something like that) might be useful, if only because the majority of this material does not bear directly on the Old Calendarist WR in its content.  (It ''informs'' what they do, to be sure, but so does the material in the [[Western Rite]] article itself, etc.)&lt;br /&gt;
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It's fine to disseminate information, but on OrthodoxWiki, that information is to be disseminated in an encyclopedic manner, which includes proper categorization and organization but also includes ''describing'' the value judgments of various notable groups rather than advocating them.&lt;br /&gt;
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It is true that the mainstream churches which have a WR (Antioch, Moscow) are going to be presented as the mainstream on OW, but that does not mean that every viewpoint that someone has within those churches is going to be presented as The Truth.  They should be presented in descriptive, not prescriptive or advocacy terms. &lt;br /&gt;
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Please keep in mind the [[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual#Controversial Subjects and Original Research|policy on controversial topics and original research]].  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font size=&amp;quot;3.5&amp;quot; color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Fr. Andrew&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;font face=&amp;quot;Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman&amp;quot;&amp;gt;('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 11:35, July 19, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Russian Orthodoxy and Western Rite==&lt;br /&gt;
The Russian Orthodox Western Rite outside of Europe did not go to the Ukrainians, it went to ROCOR with Mount Royal monastery. The misunderstanding may center around Francis Brothers - who was an Old Catholic bishop who got consecration in the 'Living Church', and was later received by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1962 as a priest. He left Orthodoxy within a year, and began to operate as an independent Old Catholic bishop after that time. Mount Royal monastery stayed with Orthodoxy, and did not follow Brothers. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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I didn't go into that here,however Metropolitan William did not claim to be Old Catholic, but Orthodox by the time of his death. He left the MP because he did not trust going to Soviet Russia to be ordained a Bishop. Those communities later joined the Milan Synod. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:48, July 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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You've been misinformed. Brothers did claim to be Old Catholic - from the time he left his priesthood in the Russian Orthodox Church, until his death - as the Metropolitan Archbishop of the Old Catholic Church in America. He had already gone to Soviet Russia before when he was 'consecrated' by the Living Church movement. Within a year of being received into Orthodoxy by Bp Dositheus (Russian Orthodox - not 'Living Church'), he left to perform Old Catholic consecrations as an Old Catholic bishop: unaware he had been elected as a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church. The leadership passed to Dom Augustine (Whitfield) who took the body into ROCOR - where it remains to this day. 'Metropolitan-Archbishop Brothers' most interesting activity was in Ecumenicism: where he supported the claims and ministry of &amp;quot;Father Divine&amp;quot;, as well as Billy Graham. The only contact with Orthodoxy he ever had was the one year he was a priest of Mount Royal under Bishop Dositheus. His 'communities' that joined the Milan Synod were Old Catholic, and never had Orthodox orders. The only community that he was ever associated with that became Orthodox was Mount Royal - and its former members (including novices) are to this day either still in ROCOR, the MP, or with the Antiochians. It helps to have access to archives - and the people who lived through it.You might find some illumination here:  http://sourcebook.oldcatholichistory.org/index.php?name=Sections&amp;amp;req=viewarticle&amp;amp;artid=75&amp;amp;page=1&lt;br /&gt;
  [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
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Since we are currently locked in a debate about the current status of certain members of our Churches that are living I would venture to say that neither of us is acting objectively.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:17, August 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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==France?==&lt;br /&gt;
I don't know why the Orthodox Church of France is mentioned in this article; they aren't Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 04:28, April 28, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== France ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I was under the impression that they were at one point on the Old Calendar-- since it appears one of their American parishes uses the Old Calendar.  That said, their history is very much tied into the history of the Russian Church Abroad as the ROCOR was beginning a period of deeper isolation from official Orthodoxy, which nurtured a catastrophist position.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 12:57, May 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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I believe that France was New Calendar even while under the protection of Archibsihop (Saint) John Maximovitch and ROCOR. They were not the only ones in ROCOR using the New Calendar. More controversially, the Church of France follows the Western Paschalion. No parishes of the French Church in France are Old Calendar. The fact that there is an American parish that observes the Old Calendar is idiosyncratic, so I don't think France has a place in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 13:19, May 2, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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You may well be right, Father. I will check the history, and if this is the case, I think at the least that should be noted in every instance of the French Church's mention in the article as soon as humanly possible. I am loath to remove reference to them altogether, because the ideological stance of the French Church as against the stance of the more &amp;quot;mainline&amp;quot; Western rite groupings matches more the thinking that is found in Milan and ROCOR Sarum parishes (what I call &amp;quot;catastrophic&amp;quot;), which do use the Old Calendar.  (However, it should be noted that in those same circles I have heard the argument adduced that even before the schism, the French Church was using a pre-schism Roman Rite.) I may well be misreading them, however, and am open to correction. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 15:48, May 4, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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As of yesterday, I did ask the priest of L'ECOF in America if what you said was correct. I have corrected the page accordingly. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 00:23, May 15, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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== ROCOR and ECOF ==&lt;br /&gt;
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This is grossly inaccurate: &amp;quot;In Europe, the ROCOR's role in the formation of the Church of France is undisputed, as the Church's existence was blessed by St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. However, the majority of the Church of France's parishes in France are on the New Calendar.&amp;quot; 1. The Church of France was established in 1936 by Moscow. It was over two decades before St John became the archpastor for ECOF. 2. I know of NO parish in ECOF (in France) that uses the Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 00:35, May 15, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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It is possible to just correct it.... L'ECOF had no Bishop until St John of Shanghai, and therefore couldn't perpetuate itself. As for the calendar, that was just a mistake. Will update accordingly.... --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:54, May 16, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
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Updated. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:58, May 16, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is not correct to say that the Church of France had no bishop until Archbishop (Saint) John (Maximovitch). The Church of France was under the PAtriarchate of Moscow, which has bishops. There is one and only one priest under the omophorion of the bishop of the Orthodox Church of France who uses an Old Calendar reckoning of the date, but I'm not sure this is what is conveyed by saying he is onl the Old Calendar. He follows the calendar of the Church of France, which is Western, only he observes this Western calendar 13 days after everyone else. In any event, the existence of one priest being given permission to so reckon the calendar doesn't warrant including France in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 20:13, July 18, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relevance of text to title==&lt;br /&gt;
I reassert that considerable amounts of this article have nothing to do with the specific issue of the Western Rite and Old Calendarists.  There are five sections to this article:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Introduction - Mostly on topic.&lt;br /&gt;
*Difference in Mindset Among Western Rite Orthodox - Should be its own article.&lt;br /&gt;
*Suitability of Definitions - See above.&lt;br /&gt;
*History - The line about Overbeck is relevant to the previous section; the remainder is (or should be) covered in the history of Western Rite articles.&lt;br /&gt;
*Ecumenism and the Western Rite - Badly named, and needing an full rewrite.  There's a lot of prejoratives, in addition to discussion of 'Mainstream' Orthodox Churches, which should be, at most, peripherally in the article, if at all.&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;Catastrophist&amp;quot; Thought and Orthodox Traditionalism - Should be tied to the 'Difference in Mindset Among Western Rite Orthodox' article.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I posit that this article should be two articles - one talking about WR and Old Calendarists (which would include ROCOR ''pre-reunification'', but not post), the other talking about different viewpoints on the Great Schism. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 05:19, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Should there, perhaps, be some form of documentation to his claims, as well? As Aristibule points out, this is both factually wrong and representative only of his own opinion. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 20:15, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am providing more documentation to my claims than you are aware. I admit I was off by five years, but unlike Aristibule, I can admit when a document written by Synod was actually written by Synod, not trying to blame everything on HTM.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:28, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
THANK YOU! This was extremely constructive. I would be glad to try to see such a &amp;quot;split&amp;quot; occur if it would make this more useful to the wiki. I will look over &amp;quot;Ecumenism&amp;quot; section to see what can be done with it. (looking over it now, I can't find too much opinion, but much that can be seen as such without actual proof -- saying the MP abandoned the Western rite without proof seems opinionated- open to suggestions). Thank you very much. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 05:26, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know that most discussion boards work differently, but OW general practise has been that everything under a header is written chronologically - note the 'thank you' para now doesn't relate to what it used to.  The reason for this is simple - it means that other people can follow the discussion (right now it's very difficult to follow, which is why it's just been the two people involved).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If you feel that something is, although hypothetically possible, just plain unlikely, there is a template that you can insert into the text: &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;{{citation}}&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;, which will pop up with a nice &amp;quot;{{citation}}&amp;quot;.  If there's no documentation after, say, a week, then one can legitimate pulling it down without revert wars. And, if there's documentation, link to it or use Wiki's in-text referencing with footnotes - ideally to a document that is online, but if it's not online then we probably can't do much about that. &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 21:47, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I haven't had to say this before, but my personal philosophy is that 10 reverts inside an hour is, well, unsane.  I'm not worried about seeming like I'm taking sides because I figure that there's a 50/50 chance that either side's view will stay on the page (for now).&lt;br /&gt;
:Please cite your ''documented'' evidence.  &amp;amp;mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 22:00, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree. I cited, in this talk page (I still don't know how to footnote), an issue of a newsletter produced at Synod by Father George-- later Bp Gregory (Grabbe) -- that included the ROCOR 1978 resolutions. Since then, I have been answered with personal opinions. I've not stated my opinion on it, but simply noted its existence.  I was told it was &amp;quot;ROAC point of view&amp;quot; (because I took it off an archive run by ROAC of all the newsletters from the 70's onward) but have not been given a single documented proof that these minutes were forgeries. Then I was told HTM forged it. By contrast, every member of ROCOR received these informational newsletters which contained Synodal archives and other news stories from Synod.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reason this is being &amp;quot;covered up&amp;quot; is simply because the new &amp;quot;official story&amp;quot; of Christminster is that they were connected to Mt Royal which came to ROCOR in '75, and then in 1993 were blessed to move. The real story is that Fr Augustine left ROCOR under pressure after 1978, went to the Church of France and other places and the real *official* beginning of Christminster is 1993.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, cover-ups have no place in encylopedias.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:10, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The citations Joseph Suaiden provided are circular - the 1979 purported decision was never acted upon and are believed to be spurious (as Bishop-Elect John R. Shaw has written elsewhere online.) The burden of proof is rather with the claim that the ROAC document was both a good translation, and accurately reflects the actual decisions of the ROCOR synod. Fr. Augustine, however, never left ROCOR - which is why Dom James was able to join him back East and found Christminster in 1993. Mount Royal was in Woodstock with the MP in 1962-63, NYC with the MP from 1963-1975, and in NY and a succession of other places from 1975-1988. Fr. Augustine was still with ROCOR (see his article &amp;quot;Valid Orders&amp;quot;  in the ROCOR publication &amp;quot;Orthodox America&amp;quot; Issue 88, Vol. IX, No. 8, March, 1989 - the year of his retirement to Florida. http://www.roca.org/OA/88/88n.htm )  This isn't a 'new' story, but simply the continuous story. The documentation exists - but it isn't all online. The fact that someone can pop up some websites, and make various new claims doesn't make it documentation. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;And in NY and a succession of other places from 1975-1988&amp;quot; is exactly my point. By 1979, he was NOT recognized at Synod. Bp Gregory did not even regard his existence, let alone his membership in Synod. You are pointing over a gap of 11 years-- and have not even regarded the fact that in practice the dictate was followed. The fact that Fr John thinks EVERYTHING from the Sorrowful Epistles to the Anathema against Ecumenism was ghostwritten by HTM is not relevant to the fact that the official ROCOR position, openly stated, was that Western rite was banned in '78, and I do not deny that this prohibition was relaxed later.  You are attesting to the factuality of this article, not the reverse.&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:36, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
P.S. Please cite what your argument that the &amp;quot;ROAC translation&amp;quot; (again, made at Synod in ROCOR by the secretary of the Synod a decade before ROAC existed, and while ROAC's primate was with the Moscow Patriarchate) of the Synodal decisions were never accepted with a Synodal document attesting to the same. Thanks. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:43, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't have an interest in the Old Calendarist issues here, but I do want to say that I was active in the Church of France in America from late 1992 on, and served as the bishop's vicar for America beginning in early 1993. No one connected to Mt Royal, including Dom Augustine, was in any way connected to the Church of France at that time or since. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 22:58, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The 11 years in question were 1978-1989. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 23:04, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:A lot of the dispute seems to me to be about whether the extant minutes are valid minutes (or something along those lines).  Remember, OW is able to describe an issue without taking sides in it (e.g. 'the extant minutes say ''x'', but objections from ''name'' have been recorded regarding ''problem with extant minutes'').&lt;br /&gt;
:An official website is a valid resource, no matter who runs it, but it does have limitations.  It doesn't matter if (to use the pertinent example) Suaiden is the webmaster of the ROAC website, if official things are on the ROAC website, then we can cite it - but that only goes towards proving that ROAC puts these ideas forward - but that doesn't, in and of itself, make it correct (and the same is true of ROCOR, AWRV, etc).  If there is a dispute amongst official sources, then I see no other course for OW than to document the claims on both sides in as NPOV a manner as possible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Just a point of order: they are not 'extant minutes', they were a supposed translation produced by HTM-Boston, which were disavowed by members of the Synod. Fr. Averky (of blessed memory) of Jordanville told me some years ago that Gregory (Grabbe) did remove Fr. Augustine's name from the directory for ROCA &amp;quot;on his own initiative&amp;quot;. It was not something accepted by the Synod, which is why he was still a priest under Bp. Hilarion (Kapral) after Gregory (Grabbe) had left ROCOR. But, no one has ever claimed (not the least Fr. Augustine) that he had left ROCOR. Documenting all 11 years is unnecessary: he was ROCOR in 1979, and still ROCOR in 1989 - and he didn't have to be 'received back'. The same happened with Fr. James of Christminster - his name is till not on the 'directory' of ROCOR, but he is under a ROCOR bishop, and celebrates with a ROCOR antimins. This is the same history and traditions I was taught from 1999 on: both by clergy, monks, and laymen who were either connected with Jordanville, HTM before it left ROCOR, and the various ROCOR WRITE works. It has often been the case that Western Rite works in the Russian church were not listed in the Russian directories (used by Russian laity) - as the Western rite works were either small monastic works, or tasked with missions: not chaplaincy to the Russians. Not being in the directory doesn't mean you aren't in the Church: having the bishop still visit, and giving an antimins: that does. The Suaiden new version stands everything on its head I've *ever* heard from any ROCOR clergy. (And yes, as Fr. Lev says, Mount Royal and Dom Augustine were not connected with L'ECOF.) Joseph Suaiden's wish for a document opposing the ROAC document isn't going to happen - the tendency is to ignore bodies like ROAC. And again, most documentation isn't online. And yes, what Bishop-Elect Fr. John R. Shaw knows about the attempt to hijack ROCOR by HTM is relevant - as the unsuccessful attempt to get rid of Fr. Augustine, and the fake 'ban' on Western rite show (for that matter, Fr. Ambrose (Young) has also written extensively on this attempt by HTM, wherein there was much published in the name of ROCOR that wasn't ROCOR speaking. Notice - you can't find that 1979 'document' on the ROCOR website: you have to go elsewhere to dig it up? An official website may be a valid website for the organization it represents: but not necessarily when speaking of other bodies. And, just because a resource isn't online doesn't mean that it shouldn't be reflected. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If I have to say it 50 times, this is not a ROAC document, because when it was written there was no ROAC.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::You say the ban is &amp;quot;fake&amp;quot;. Prove it.  The document I am citing was distributed to every single priest of the ROCOR when it was printed. Where is there a public retraction of this on part of the declarations made at Synod in 1978, NOT 1979?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Aristibule is asking me to accept his propositions on faith. I was about to get the ROCOR directories for the period and now he is admitting neither priest was in them, but they were really &amp;quot;part of Synod anyway&amp;quot;.  How do we know? We know otherwise because of documentation. And if we have to go there due to the question of Fr Augustine, we will.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::None of the newsletters were put up because none of them were computerized documents. Early versions of the Synod sites cited some of the information, but no one attempted to put up all the documentation until it was possible-- but then it became inconvenient to the purpose of union. But this is neither here nor there.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That would be fair enough if that was a &amp;quot;ROAC&amp;quot; position-- but it isn't!  The &amp;quot;ROAC&amp;quot; page in question the document is listed from is an archive of the official newsletters of Bp Gregory (Grabbe) at Synod known as the  &amp;quot;NEWSLETTER OF THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC AND FOREIGN RELATIONS&amp;quot; and the unofficial newsletters of Matushka Anastasia (Shatiloff) known as &amp;quot;Church News&amp;quot; from 1975 to 2005. The documents are not altered, but simply .pdf copies of the original typewritten and xeroxed files and are the same documents sent out to the clergy from Synod, which any honest ROCOR priest from the time would easily admit (whether he had a high opinion of them or not is another matter altogether).  As I pointed out repeatedly, the ROAC did not exist in any form when these documents were written, so they can't be called &amp;quot;ROAC documents&amp;quot;, and are listed on the document archive under &amp;quot;HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad&amp;quot;.  If Aristibule wishes to claim they were altered (which he isn't-- he is claiming they were written by HTM) then I ask him to demonstrate it. But since he has simply tried to delete the reference, I am a little confused as to how I can prove the reference is really a ROCOR source. If I get an identical copy from a ROCOR priest and scan it, can't it simply be said that I am &amp;quot;copying the ROAC document&amp;quot;, to the point of the absurd?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are 24 declarations of that Synod meeting in 1978. Almost 10 involve actions with Bishops. Did HTM simply make that all up? Were they responsible for the glorification of Blessed Xenia which was the first declaration of the meeting? --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 23:32, August 3, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Disclaimer: I have no way to know whether the claims of Joseph or Aristibule are true since I am ignorant of the history of the WRITE and ROCOR.  However, I am concerned with the idea expressed here and elsewhere online that HTM managed to carry out some kind of all-encompassing conspiracy to control, edit, and manipulate all information emanating out to the public in some attempt to control the Synod, in order to do various nefarious things that the Russian bishops just would have not otherwise done.  Does anyone have any concrete evidence for this assertion? What did Fr Alexy Young write about it and where can we find these writings, and why should we consider him a trustworthy source on HTM considering his known affinity for Platina, who were engaged in a dispute with HTM all throughout the 1970's? Where are the responses by others to HTM from the 1970's against these attempts? Making this blanket claim seems to suggest that the entire episcopate of ROCOR was too ignorant, feeble, brainwashed, or misinformed to handle this monastery as it carried out this massive campaign throughout the 1970's. I'd like to see some concrete proof of this claim.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I am also confused why this keeps being referred to as a ROAC document when it is merely hosted on a ROAC site.--[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 00:02, August 4, 2008 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A private message from the ROCOR priest corrected me on one matter: it was not Bp Gregory (Grabbe) that removed Fr. Augustine's name from the directory. It was Fr. Gregory Williams of HTM-Boston (without Synodal permission). I also have personal accounts of ROCOR clergy visiting Mount Royal in 1984 and it being ROCOR, and again Bp. Hilarion serving Western Rite Vespers there again in the late 1980s. Private interviews, emails, letters - are all material that may be cited according to any style manual that I know of. AFAIK, it was only the one matter of the Western Rite that appeared in that 'translation' out of HTM that was disavowed by members of the Synod actually present at that meeting.  [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How incredibly convenient!  Now Fr Gregory Williams (who was not part of HTM-Boston and did not leave  ROCOR until the union of 2007) &amp;quot;removed the names from the directory&amp;quot; and Bishop Gregory Grabbe didn't recognize him.  All of this was controlled by HTM. You realize St John of Kronsdadt Press produced the OFFICIAL directory of the ROCOR until 2006 (AND the quoted page on Father Augustine that you cited)?  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can you prove Fr Gregory was under HTM at all? No. He did not leave in 1986, and was not part of HOCNA at all.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But you have loads of &amp;quot;personal accounts&amp;quot;.  How nice. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And AMAZINGLY, when confronted with the ugly possibility that by simply brushing off the Synodal declarations as &amp;quot;written by HTM&amp;quot;, you ascribed the glorification of St Xenia of Petersburg to HTM, you decide to note that they &amp;quot;snuck in a declaration&amp;quot; which was &amp;quot;disavowed by the members of the Synod&amp;quot; with NO PROOF, NO CITATIONS, AND NO SIGNATURES. I have already accepted the possibility (not the proof, as you've provided none) that Fr Augustine rejoined the Synod in '89, so why would Bp Hilarion showing up there around that time to receive him be relevant?  And how were all these people involved? Maybe they were all secretly in ROAC, which didn't exist then....--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 00:00, August 4, 2008 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=59027</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=59027"/>
				<updated>2008-01-14T02:08:48Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|right|thumb|In Raleigh, NC, 2003.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is '''Anastasios Hudson'''.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America'' for which I received a grade of A.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while studying at St. Vladimir's Seminary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net, which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed as a Network Engineer. My wife and I helped found a nascent mission parish in Raleigh, North Carolina, [http://www.gocraleigh.org St. Mark the Evangelist], whose first liturgy was celebrated by His Grace Bishop Christodoulos in November 2007.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Contact Info'''&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Email: anastasios0513@yahoo.com&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;AIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;YahooIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;MSN: dustin_hudson@hotmail.com&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=59026</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=59026"/>
				<updated>2008-01-14T02:07:44Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|right|thumb|In Raleigh, NC, 2003.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is '''Anastasios Hudson'''.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America'' for which I received a grade of A.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while studying at St. Vladimir's Seminary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net, which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed as a Network Engineer. My wife and I helped found a nascent mission parish in Raleigh, North Carolina, [http://www.gocraleigh.org St. Mark the Evangelist], whose first liturgy was celebrated by His Grace Bishop Christodoulos in November 2007.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Contact Info'''&lt;br /&gt;
Email: anastasios0513@yahoo.com&lt;br /&gt;
AIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
YahooIM: anastasios0513&lt;br /&gt;
MSN: dustin_hudson@hotmail.com&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=58981</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=58981"/>
				<updated>2008-01-13T04:14:41Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|right|thumb|In Raleigh, NC, 2003.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is '''Anastasios Hudson'''.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America'' for which I received a grade of A.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while studying at St. Vladimir's Seminary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net, which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed as a Network Engineer. My wife and I helped found a nascent mission parish in Raleigh, North Carolina, [http://www.gocraleigh.org St. Mark the Evangelist], whose first liturgy was celebrated by His Grace Bishop Christodoulos in November 2007.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=58980</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=58980"/>
				<updated>2008-01-13T04:12:32Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|right|thumb|In Raleigh, NC, 2003.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Hello! My name is Anastasios Hudson.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America'' for which I received a grade of A.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while studying at St. Vladimir's Seminary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net, which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed as a Network Engineer. My wife and I, with a friend of ours, are forming a GOC mission station in Raleigh, NC presently.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=58979</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=58979"/>
				<updated>2008-01-13T04:04:32Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Hello! My name is Anastasios Hudson.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America'' for which I received a grade of A.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while studying at St. Vladimir's Seminary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net, which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed as a Network Engineer. My wife and I, with a friend of ours, are forming a GOC mission station in Raleigh, NC presently.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:User Pages|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:AnastasiosHudson.jpg|thumb|In Raleigh, NC, 2003.]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;diff=58978</id>
		<title>File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=File:AnastasiosHudson.jpg&amp;diff=58978"/>
				<updated>2008-01-13T03:56:35Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: This is a picture of me taken in 2003.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
This is a picture of me taken in 2003.&lt;br /&gt;
== Copyright status ==&lt;br /&gt;
{{limited}}&lt;br /&gt;
== Source ==&lt;br /&gt;
My own camera.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Antonio_(de_Rosso)_of_Ravenna&amp;diff=58977</id>
		<title>Antonio (de Rosso) of Ravenna</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Antonio_(de_Rosso)_of_Ravenna&amp;diff=58977"/>
				<updated>2008-01-13T03:03:36Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{cleanup}}&lt;br /&gt;
Metropolitan '''Antonio (de Rosso)''' is the current head of the formerly-[[Old Calendarist]] [[Orthodox Church in Italy]] and the [[Metropolitan]] of [[Ravenna (Italy)|Ravenna]] and Italy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Life==&lt;br /&gt;
Metr. Antonio was born in 1941 in Farra di Soligo (near Treviso, Veneto). In 1968 he was [[ordination|ordained]] a [[priest]] in the [[Roman Catholic Church]]. In 1986, after his conversion to [[Orthodox Church|Orthodoxy]] he was named [[bishop]] of Aprilia and Latium under the [[jurisdiction]] of Metr. [[Cyprian of Fili|Cyprian]] of Oropos and Fili, a leader of the [[Greek Old Calendarists]] movement. In 1991 he founded the Orthodox Church in Italy. In 1993 Bp. Antonio joined the [[Bulgarian Orthodox Church]], and in 1995 was enthroned bishop of Ravenna and Italy. After 1997 the [[Orthodox Church in Italy]] remained linked with [[Patriarch]] Pimen's Bulgarian Alternative Synod and Bp. Antonio became Metropolitan of Ravenna and Italy. In the same year Metr. Antonio became a full member of Pimen's [[Holy Synod]], as the head of the autonomous Orthodox Church in Italy. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Metr. Antonio's [[apostolic succession]] derives from Metr. Cyprian (Old Calendarist). In 1993 he introduced the [[Revised Julian Calendar|reformed Julian calendar]] into the Orthodox Church in Italy, thus ending any association with the [[Old Calendarist]] movement.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Source==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_De_Rosso Antonio De Rosso (Wikipedia)]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External link==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.chiesaortodossa.it/metropolia.html Ortodossia Italiana] (Italian)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Old Calendarist Jurisdictions]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Antonio_(de_Rosso)_of_Ravenna&amp;diff=58614</id>
		<title>Talk:Antonio (de Rosso) of Ravenna</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Antonio_(de_Rosso)_of_Ravenna&amp;diff=58614"/>
				<updated>2008-01-03T01:11:33Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: Can he really be called Old Calendarist?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Am I right that Metropolitan Antonio is an Old Calendarist bishop? --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 12:19, August 28, 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:His church (ie Orthodox Church in Italy) is Old Calendarist, so yes.  If he is to be considered a bishop, his article needs renaming (I assume to 'Antonio (de Rosso) of Italy' or something similar), currently the implication is that he is a figure (i.e. not even a monk). &amp;amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;green&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pιs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;gold&amp;quot;&amp;gt;τévο&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;complaints&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]''&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; at 06:52, August 29, 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks. Not sure if Old Calendarists have ''valid'' bishops, so will remove the 'cat Bishops' until you/we confirm that he is a canonical bishop/metropolitan with valid Apostolic succession. --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 08:25, August 29, 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I removed the reference to his friendships - I don't think that should be in the article. Also - to Arbible - many (Western, schismatic, especially Anglican-descdent) groups use the traditional/scholastic Roman Catholic distinction between licit and valid orders, tracing a history of ordinations, as a way of claiming legitmacy. In my understanding, the Orthodox church does not adopt this distinction. Epsicopal consecration is only valid and licit (to use Scholastic terminology) when in communion with the other Orthodox churches around the world. There has been some flexibility here in terms of how hard-nosed the division is, e.g. in the case of ROCOR and other schisms resulting from Communism, but schism remains a painful and destructive reality and should not be taken too lightly either. All that said, I'm not sure how this applies to the group or person in question here. — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
:P.S. I've posted some of this at [[Episcopi vagantes]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Can he really be called Old Calendarist? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Given that Metropolitan Antonio introduced the Gregorian Calendar into his diocese and is in communion with bodies that are not Old Calendarist, I do not believe that it is fair or accurate to label him the head of the Old Calendarist Orthodox Church of Italy. Perhaps it would be better to say he is a former Old Calendarist bishop or some sort of thing. --[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 17:11, January 2, 2008 (PST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=43356</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=43356"/>
				<updated>2006-12-05T05:25:30Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Hello! My name is Anastasios Hudson.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated ''cum laude'' with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America'' for which I received a grade of A.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while studying at St. Vladimir's Seminary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net, which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed as a Network Engineer. My wife and I, with a friend of ours, are forming a GOC mission station in Raleigh, NC presently.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Genuine_Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_America&amp;diff=43355</id>
		<title>Talk:Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Genuine_Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_America&amp;diff=43355"/>
				<updated>2006-12-05T05:24:03Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I am just learning how to make new pages. I will try to add more but need assistance. [[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 21:24, December 4, 2006 (PST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Genuine_Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_America&amp;diff=43354</id>
		<title>Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Genuine_Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_America&amp;diff=43354"/>
				<updated>2006-12-05T05:23:17Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Introduction ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The American Metropolis of the Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America is an autonomous diocese of the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece (GOC).  It is also known as the Hellenic Orthodox Traditionalist Church of America, or simply as the Greek Old Calenadrist Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Prior to the establishment of this diocese, there were still several independent Greek parishes in North America that had not been regularized by Archbishop Athenagoras, who had been for several years going from parish to parish, bringing independents into the fold of the Greek Archdiocese.  These independent parishes sometimes looked to Greece for priests, and sometimes turned to vagante bishops such as Christopher Contageorge.  The situation in general in the 1930's and 40's was one of ecclesiastical confusion, and Old Calendarism ''per se'' could be seen in some cases as a side effect of the parish remaining independent rather than as a purely idealogical position.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Arrival of Archimandrite Petros ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1951, Archimandrite Petros (Astyfides) arrived in New York at the invitation of Arsenios Saltas, whom he understood to be the Greek Old Calendarist bishop of America.  Soon learning that this was not the case, Archimandrite Petros resolved to return to Greece.  However, two women in Queens persuaded him to begin services for them, and by 1954 Saint Markella's Cathedral was established.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Archimandrite Petros began to gather various independent parishes, until a diocese was formed.  During this time, he was under the Metropolia and then the ROCOR.  Two ROCOR bishops--Seraphim and Leonty--consecrated him to the episcopacy in November 1962.  This consecration was not technically speaking canonical as it was done in secret; however, by 1969 the ROCOR had recognized the necessity of this and other Old Calendarist consecrations, and recognized the Greek Old Calendarist bishops. At this time, Metropolitan Petros joined with the Synod in Greece officially.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Dispute over Grace ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1974, the Synod of the Greek Old Calendarist Church reiterated its belief that the New Calendar Church was schismatic and devoid of grace.  Metropolitan Petros was opposed to this decision and asked the ROCOR bishops what to do, since they had consecrated him, and his consecration certificate stated that he would defer to the Synod if any question arose.  While this may seem a simplistic reasoning, the Metropolitan was concerned to keep his pledge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By not signing the declaration, Metropolitan Petros was forced out of the Synod of the GOC, and as a result the Metropolis of North and South America passed first to Metropolitan Anthony and then Archimandrite Paisios (Loulourgas).  The later was eventually consecrated a bishop in 1979 and took his Cathedral seat at Saint Irene Chrysovalantou Monastery in Queens.  From this point on he was the bishop of the Metropolis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Reunion in 1985 ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1985, Metropolitan Petros began talks with the Synod culminating in his return to the Synod.  He was given a title of Metropolitan of Astoria which was irregular since Metropolitan Paisios, the Metropolitan of North and South America, resided down the street.  Nevertheless, this was an attempt to find peace in the Church, which lasted until Metropolitan Paisios left the Synod again in 1995 to join the Lamian Synod, and then from it the Athanasian Synod, and finally found himself joining the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1998.  From 1995 on, Metropolitan Petros can be considered as the Metropolitan of North and South America.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ascension of Metropolitan Pavlos ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1997, Metropolitan Petros reposed, and in 1998 his grandnephew, Archimandrite Pavlos (Stratigeas) was elected as the Metropolitan of North and South America.  He was installed in March 1998. In 2000, Archimandrite Christodoulos was consecrated titular bishop of Theopoulis to assist Metropolitan Pavlos.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In February 2006, Metropolitan Pavlos suffered a stroke and was incapacitated.  The Archbishop became ''locum tenens'' and at present no move is being made until the extent of Metropolitan Pavlos's recovery is known.  As of December 2006, there has been tremendous progress in Metropolitan Pavlos's recovery.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Currently there are 8 parishes, a mission, and a mission station in formation.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=43350</id>
		<title>Talk:Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=43350"/>
				<updated>2006-12-05T04:56:24Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: /* Egyptian &amp;quot;Old Calendarists&amp;quot; */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Is it really right to classify [[ROCOR]] as &amp;quot;Old Calendarist&amp;quot;?  Their separation didn't have anything to do with the calendar change, and they're apparently on the verge of reunion with Moscow, anyhow.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 13:00, 28 Feb 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== '''Archbishop Gregory (Dormition Skete / Colorado)''' ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How should his eminence be classified?  As a separate jurisdiction? [[User:Eddieuny|Eddieuny]] 21:18, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Good question.  What does he call his jurisdiction?  Are there any other bishops in it with him?  [http://www.buenavistaco.com/GOC/ds-history.html Their website] describes them as &amp;quot;temporarily independent.&amp;quot;  I'd hate to make up a name for them if they didn't have their own, but they are probably worth a mention.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;&amp;lt;i&amp;gt;Dcn. Andrew&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[Special:Randompage|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;random&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 21:48, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Oh, here we go:  http://www.roacamerica.org/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It seems they're the &amp;quot;Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&amp;quot;  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;&amp;lt;i&amp;gt;Dcn. Andrew&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[Special:Randompage|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;random&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:15, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It appears that Archbishop Gregory has changed his church's name to the &amp;quot;Genuine Orthodox Church of America.&amp;quot; [http://www.gocamerica.org link title].  However, this may be ambiguous as the Metropolis of the GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos is called GOC as is the Makarian Synod's presence in America. --[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 14:07, February 20, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Article bias?==&lt;br /&gt;
I received this feedback today from someone. Any comments? Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Interesting. I think this article illustrates some of the problems with a publicly edited encyclopedia. Just a couple examples...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Headed by Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal, the synod has twelve bishops and is enjoying a period of relative stability amidst intermittent persecution on the part of the state church. One bishop, Gregory (George) of Colorado, recently went into schism, but took no parishes with him save four, calling themselves the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:This seems very biased in favor of Valentine and against Gregory (note that I am not the least bit fond of either of them).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::In 2001, after the ROCOR made a clear commitment to union with the Moscow Patriarchate, the head of the ROCOR synod, Metropolitan Vitaly, retired in clear disgust from the proceedings.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Almost immediately afterwards, Metropolitan Vitaly, Archbishop Varnava of Cannes, and the two of the Russian bishops of ROCOR, separated from the ROCOR and made new bishops. The proceedings that led up to these events are well documented on the Internet and the treatment of the retired head of the ROCOR was painful to watch, for even the most casual observer.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Again, obvious bias in favor of the Mansonville schismatics (yes, I have a personal interest here).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't see why it couldn't be worded a bit more neutrally.  The original bulk of the article was taken by permission from a text written by a scholar in the field (who is himself, I believe, in one of these groups), [[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]].  In any event, it's curious that the person who wrote to you didn't see instead the inherent ''strengths'' of a publicly editable encyclopedia and come contribute.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'll work with those passages to see if I can &amp;quot;neutralize&amp;quot; them a bit.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;&amp;lt;i&amp;gt;Dcn. Andrew&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;red&amp;quot;&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[Special:Randompage|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;blue&amp;quot;&amp;gt;random&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;black&amp;quot;&amp;gt;contribs&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:15, 22 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I changed the eponym for the &amp;quot;Kiousis&amp;quot; Synod to &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;. This is how it is known and referred to in Greece. The alternative &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; is used in polemical contexts by its detractors. &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;  is commonly used to refer to both Chrysostom of Florina (as opposed to Matthewite) and Chrysostom (Kiousis) of Athens (as opposed to Auxentite). I also corrected the timeline of the Florenite ordinations and the removal of Auxentios in 1986.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Leonidas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Thanks Leonidas! Good to see you here - [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Walling off vs In Resistance ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It seems that these terms are used more by the Exarchate of the Synod in Resistance in their literature interchangeably.  I have not seen this terminology used in any of my church's (GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria) publications in English (although we don't have a large publishing arm!), but I am not sure how these matters are discussed in Greek.  From our POV, we are not &amp;quot;in resistance&amp;quot; as we are the local Church of Greece and its American Metropolis (sorry if this offends anyone in the New Calendar Church, but I am just stating the official view) so there is nothing to &amp;quot;resist.&amp;quot;  Walling off implies that we hold the State Church of Greece to be on equal footing, but just a separate part.  I don't see any difference between walling off and being in resistance.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To break the discussion down to &amp;quot;Synods condemning New Calendarists as Graceless&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;those not&amp;quot; would be futile as well, as all the Greek Synods except the Synod in Resistance have done so, yet there have been vocal critics of this policy even within these synods (i.e. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, I don't quite have the answer (although I will think about it some more) but I hope I have pointed out some potential ambiguities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 14:53, February 20, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Changes ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some changes that needed to be made:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
a) Clarification of the 1995 split in Kiousis Synod: Only Euthymios of Thessaloniki was charged with moral infractions. &lt;br /&gt;
b) Cyprianite Ecclesiology is not widely considered heretical among Greek Old Calendarists, regardless of a 1987 Synodal Decision by the Kiousis Synod. &amp;quot;Cyprianite Eccelsiology&amp;quot; is generally found objectionable because it is seen to blurr the distinction (the boundary created by the act of breaking communion and &amp;quot;walling-off&amp;quot;) between World Orthodoxy and the Old Calendar Church and mostly because it is percieved to have been articulted in order to justify divisions within the Old Calendar Church: namely the existance of the Synod in Resistance.   &lt;br /&gt;
c) The reference to a Cyprianite priest in Georgia erased: this isn't the place for invective against individuals.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Leonidas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Egyptian &amp;quot;Old Calendarists&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The jurisdictions, affiliations, and ordinations mentioned in this entry--and the &amp;quot;Holy Synod of bishops headed by Max Michel&amp;quot;--are all highly questionable, if not completely bogus. This jurisidiciton is not a mainstream Old Calendar jurisdiction and it is not recognized by anyone. It really doesn't have a place here, at least in this article. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In general, the Old Calendar movement is Greek as it came as a reaction to the Calendar Reforms of the 1920's in the Greek-speaking churches of Constantinople and Greece. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Russian Church Abroad came to be associated with this movement in the 1960's as its hierarchs restored the Florenite hiearchy in 1960 after the death of Metropolitan Chrysostom of Florina. Especially under Metropolitan Philaret, the ROCA took an interest in the Greek Old Calendarists, involving itself even in the efforts for reconciliation between Florinites and Matthewites in 1972. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ROCA and its splinter groups thus come to be included in discussions on the Old Calendar only a) in view of the above described involvement in the ecclesiastic life of the Greek Old Calendar Church and b) in regards to the movment to resist Ecumenism by abstaining from communion with the &amp;quot;World Orthodox&amp;quot; jurisdictions.     &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A working definition, then, of who and what should be included in this article would be those jurisdicitions which fall into the category of Greek Old Calendarist-ROCA: all those jurisdictions which trace their origins from the ROCA or from the Greek Florenites or Matthewites.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Leonidas|Leonidas]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Thanks for the explanation and clarifying comments, Leonidas. It's helpful for making sense of the situation. Maybe the material on Max Michel should be moved to [[Episcopi vagantes]]? — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
:P. S. Just noticed we don't have a listing there - maybe that's just as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks very much for the note. As far as I know, Max Michel has been &amp;quot;ordained&amp;quot; by an Old Calendarist group in the States (see http://www.oldorthodox.org/synodcommunion.html ), so please advise. Does this group belong to mainstream Old Calendarists? Max has recently published on his Web site his alleged &amp;quot;Apostolic succession&amp;quot;, which, as he claims, goes back to Sts Andrew and Peter through those Old Calendarist &amp;quot;bishops&amp;quot; who &amp;quot;ordained&amp;quot; him in the States ( http://www.bishopmaximus.com/articles_body.php?id=129 ). --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 04:44, September 18, 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I expect that Leonidas would know if they had any regard among the mainstream Greek-American Old-Calendarists. (I don't know many Old-Claendarists, but Leonides, a personal friend, knows more about the movement as anyone I've ever met.) The claim to &amp;quot;apostolic succession&amp;quot; is a familiar trope which, in an Orthodox context, I think is almost meaningless. As I see it, we understand that apostolic succession must mean much more than a mere linear succession; it requires communion with the body of the Church. The ancient dictum &amp;quot;unus Christianus, nullus Christianus&amp;quot; (one Christian is no Christian) certainly applies to bishops, conveniently located far off and bolstered with self-aggrandizing claims to their own succession. — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Some background: http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6883&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Max was ordained by &amp;quot;Mar Melchisedek&amp;quot; (your first hint it is not a real Old Calendarist is the Syriac title) of the &amp;quot;Eparchy of Nebraska&amp;quot; (second clue as we don't use the term Eparchy).  As the background, Mar Melchisedek was ordained by the Timotheos group if I am correct, which has its origins in Joachim Souris, a bishop ordained by Arsenios Saltas, who was ordained by the infamous Christopher Contageorge, of proto-vagante fame.  This Souris went to Greece and established himself as an &amp;quot;Archbishop&amp;quot; of the Old Calendarists even though we already had a Synod.  These people are vagantes and have no association with us whatsoever. &lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Deletion===&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:HSAD|HSAD]], please explain your deletion. If you delete this again without explanation, your account will be suspended from OrthodoxWiki. You are welcome to contest facts, if that is the issue, but you may not simply suppress the conversation. — [[User:FrJohn|&amp;lt;b&amp;gt;FrJohn&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;amp;action=edit&amp;amp;section=new talk])&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=26787</id>
		<title>Talk:Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=26787"/>
				<updated>2006-02-20T20:54:41Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Is it really right to classify [[ROCOR]] as &amp;quot;Old Calendarist&amp;quot;?  Their separation didn't have anything to do with the calendar change, and they're apparently on the verge of reunion with Moscow, anyhow.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 13:00, 28 Feb 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== '''Archbishop Gregory (Dormition Skete / Colorado)''' ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How should his eminence be classified?  As a separate jurisdiction? [[User:Eddieuny|Eddieuny]] 21:18, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Good question.  What does he call his jurisdiction?  Are there any other bishops in it with him?  [http://www.buenavistaco.com/GOC/ds-history.html Their website] describes them as &amp;quot;temporarily independent.&amp;quot;  I'd hate to make up a name for them if they didn't have their own, but they are probably worth a mention.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 21:48, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Oh, here we go:  http://www.roacamerica.org/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It seems they're the &amp;quot;Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&amp;quot;  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 22:15, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It appears that Archbishop Gregory has changed his church's name to the &amp;quot;Genuine Orthodox Church of America.&amp;quot; [http://www.gocamerica.org link title].  However, this may be ambiguous as the Metropolis of the GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos is called GOC as is the Makarian Synod's presence in America. --[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 14:07, February 20, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Article bias?==&lt;br /&gt;
I received this feedback today from someone. Any comments? Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Interesting. I think this article illustrates some of the problems with a publicly edited encyclopedia. Just a couple examples...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Headed by Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal, the synod has twelve bishops and is enjoying a period of relative stability amidst intermittent persecution on the part of the state church. One bishop, Gregory (George) of Colorado, recently went into schism, but took no parishes with him save four, calling themselves the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:This seems very biased in favor of Valentine and against Gregory (note that I am not the least bit fond of either of them).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::In 2001, after the ROCOR made a clear commitment to union with the Moscow Patriarchate, the head of the ROCOR synod, Metropolitan Vitaly, retired in clear disgust from the proceedings.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Almost immediately afterwards, Metropolitan Vitaly, Archbishop Varnava of Cannes, and the two of the Russian bishops of ROCOR, separated from the ROCOR and made new bishops. The proceedings that led up to these events are well documented on the Internet and the treatment of the retired head of the ROCOR was painful to watch, for even the most casual observer.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Again, obvious bias in favor of the Mansonville schismatics (yes, I have a personal interest here).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't see why it couldn't be worded a bit more neutrally.  The original bulk of the article was taken by permission from a text written by a scholar in the field (who is himself, I believe, in one of these groups), [[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]].  In any event, it's curious that the person who wrote to you didn't see instead the inherent ''strengths'' of a publicly editable encyclopedia and come contribute.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'll work with those passages to see if I can &amp;quot;neutralize&amp;quot; them a bit.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 15:15, 22 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I changed the eponym for the &amp;quot;Kiousis&amp;quot; Synod to &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;. This is how it is known and referred to in Greece. The alternative &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; is used in polemical contexts by its detractors. &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;  is commonly used to refer to both Chrysostom of Florina (as opposed to Matthewite) and Chrysostom (Kiousis) of Athens (as opposed to Auxentite). I also corrected the timeline of the Florenite ordinations and the removal of Auxentios in 1986.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Leonidas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Thanks Leonidas! Good to see you here - [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Walling off vs In Resistance ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It seems that these terms are used more by the Exarchate of the Synod in Resistance in their literature interchangeably.  I have not seen this terminology used in any of my church's (GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria) publications in English (although we don't have a large publishing arm!), but I am not sure how these matters are discussed in Greek.  From our POV, we are not &amp;quot;in resistance&amp;quot; as we are the local Church of Greece and its American Metropolis (sorry if this offends anyone in the New Calendar Church, but I am just stating the official view) so there is nothing to &amp;quot;resist.&amp;quot;  Walling off implies that we hold the State Church of Greece to be on equal footing, but just a separate part.  I don't see any difference between walling off and being in resistance.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To break the discussion down to &amp;quot;Synods condemning New Calendarists as Graceless&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;those not&amp;quot; would be futile as well, as all the Greek Synods except the Synod in Resistance have done so, yet there have been vocal critics of this policy even within these synods (i.e. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, I don't quite have the answer (although I will think about it some more) but I hope I have pointed out some potential ambiguities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 14:53, February 20, 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=26786</id>
		<title>Talk:Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=26786"/>
				<updated>2006-02-20T20:53:41Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Is it really right to classify [[ROCOR]] as &amp;quot;Old Calendarist&amp;quot;?  Their separation didn't have anything to do with the calendar change, and they're apparently on the verge of reunion with Moscow, anyhow.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 13:00, 28 Feb 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== '''Archbishop Gregory (Dormition Skete / Colorado)''' ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How should his eminence be classified?  As a separate jurisdiction? [[User:Eddieuny|Eddieuny]] 21:18, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Good question.  What does he call his jurisdiction?  Are there any other bishops in it with him?  [http://www.buenavistaco.com/GOC/ds-history.html Their website] describes them as &amp;quot;temporarily independent.&amp;quot;  I'd hate to make up a name for them if they didn't have their own, but they are probably worth a mention.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 21:48, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Oh, here we go:  http://www.roacamerica.org/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It seems they're the &amp;quot;Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&amp;quot;  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 22:15, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Article bias?==&lt;br /&gt;
I received this feedback today from someone. Any comments? Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Interesting. I think this article illustrates some of the problems with a publicly edited encyclopedia. Just a couple examples...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Headed by Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal, the synod has twelve bishops and is enjoying a period of relative stability amidst intermittent persecution on the part of the state church. One bishop, Gregory (George) of Colorado, recently went into schism, but took no parishes with him save four, calling themselves the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:This seems very biased in favor of Valentine and against Gregory (note that I am not the least bit fond of either of them).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::In 2001, after the ROCOR made a clear commitment to union with the Moscow Patriarchate, the head of the ROCOR synod, Metropolitan Vitaly, retired in clear disgust from the proceedings.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Almost immediately afterwards, Metropolitan Vitaly, Archbishop Varnava of Cannes, and the two of the Russian bishops of ROCOR, separated from the ROCOR and made new bishops. The proceedings that led up to these events are well documented on the Internet and the treatment of the retired head of the ROCOR was painful to watch, for even the most casual observer.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Again, obvious bias in favor of the Mansonville schismatics (yes, I have a personal interest here).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't see why it couldn't be worded a bit more neutrally.  The original bulk of the article was taken by permission from a text written by a scholar in the field (who is himself, I believe, in one of these groups), [[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]].  In any event, it's curious that the person who wrote to you didn't see instead the inherent ''strengths'' of a publicly editable encyclopedia and come contribute.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'll work with those passages to see if I can &amp;quot;neutralize&amp;quot; them a bit.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 15:15, 22 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It appears that Archbishop Gregory has changed his church's name to the &amp;quot;Genuine Orthodox Church of America.&amp;quot; [http://www.gocamerica.org link title].  However, this may be ambiguous as the Metropolis of the GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos is called GOC as is the Makarian Synod's presence in America. --[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 14:07, February 20, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I changed the eponym for the &amp;quot;Kiousis&amp;quot; Synod to &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;. This is how it is known and referred to in Greece. The alternative &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; is used in polemical contexts by its detractors. &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;  is commonly used to refer to both Chrysostom of Florina (as opposed to Matthewite) and Chrysostom (Kiousis) of Athens (as opposed to Auxentite). I also corrected the timeline of the Florenite ordinations and the removal of Auxentios in 1986.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Leonidas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Thanks Leonidas! Good to see you here - [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Walling off vs In Resistance ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It seems that these terms are used more by the Exarchate of the Synod in Resistance in their literature interchangeably.  I have not seen this terminology used in any of my church's (GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria) publications in English (although we don't have a large publishing arm!), but I am not sure how these matters are discussed in Greek.  From our POV, we are not &amp;quot;in resistance&amp;quot; as we are the local Church of Greece and its American Metropolis (sorry if this offends anyone in the New Calendar Church, but I am just stating the official view) so there is nothing to &amp;quot;resist.&amp;quot;  Walling off implies that we hold the State Church of Greece to be on equal footing, but just a separate part.  I don't see any difference between walling off and being in resistance.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To break the discussion down to &amp;quot;Synods condemning New Calendarists as Graceless&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;those not&amp;quot; would be futile as well, as all the Greek Synods except the Synod in Resistance have done so, yet there have been vocal critics of this policy even within these synods (i.e. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, I don't quite have the answer (although I will think about it some more) but I hope I have pointed out some potential ambiguities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 14:53, February 20, 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=26782</id>
		<title>User:Anastasios</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Anastasios&amp;diff=26782"/>
				<updated>2006-02-20T20:31:00Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Hello! My name is Anastasios Hudson.  I live in Raleigh, NC and formerly lived in Crestwood, NY, where I attended St. Vladimir's Seminary from 2002-5.  I graduated cum laude with a Master of Divinity degree, and my thesis was titled ''Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America'' for which I received a grade of A.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am a member of the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of America) under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria, having found that Church while studying at St. Vladimir's Seminary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am part of the administrative team of http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net, which I co-founded on May 12, 2002.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am married and currently employed in our local school system. I hope to be accepted into a PhD program soon.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=26781</id>
		<title>Talk:Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=26781"/>
				<updated>2006-02-20T20:14:10Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: Walling off vs In Resistance&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Is it really right to classify [[ROCOR]] as &amp;quot;Old Calendarist&amp;quot;?  Their separation didn't have anything to do with the calendar change, and they're apparently on the verge of reunion with Moscow, anyhow.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 13:00, 28 Feb 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== '''Archbishop Gregory (Dormition Skete / Colorado)''' ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How should his eminence be classified?  As a separate jurisdiction? [[User:Eddieuny|Eddieuny]] 21:18, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Good question.  What does he call his jurisdiction?  Are there any other bishops in it with him?  [http://www.buenavistaco.com/GOC/ds-history.html Their website] describes them as &amp;quot;temporarily independent.&amp;quot;  I'd hate to make up a name for them if they didn't have their own, but they are probably worth a mention.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 21:48, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Oh, here we go:  http://www.roacamerica.org/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It seems they're the &amp;quot;Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&amp;quot;  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 22:15, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Article bias?==&lt;br /&gt;
I received this feedback today from someone. Any comments? Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Interesting. I think this article illustrates some of the problems with a publicly edited encyclopedia. Just a couple examples...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Headed by Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal, the synod has twelve bishops and is enjoying a period of relative stability amidst intermittent persecution on the part of the state church. One bishop, Gregory (George) of Colorado, recently went into schism, but took no parishes with him save four, calling themselves the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:This seems very biased in favor of Valentine and against Gregory (note that I am not the least bit fond of either of them).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::In 2001, after the ROCOR made a clear commitment to union with the Moscow Patriarchate, the head of the ROCOR synod, Metropolitan Vitaly, retired in clear disgust from the proceedings.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Almost immediately afterwards, Metropolitan Vitaly, Archbishop Varnava of Cannes, and the two of the Russian bishops of ROCOR, separated from the ROCOR and made new bishops. The proceedings that led up to these events are well documented on the Internet and the treatment of the retired head of the ROCOR was painful to watch, for even the most casual observer.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Again, obvious bias in favor of the Mansonville schismatics (yes, I have a personal interest here).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't see why it couldn't be worded a bit more neutrally.  The original bulk of the article was taken by permission from a text written by a scholar in the field (who is himself, I believe, in one of these groups), [[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]].  In any event, it's curious that the person who wrote to you didn't see instead the inherent ''strengths'' of a publicly editable encyclopedia and come contribute.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'll work with those passages to see if I can &amp;quot;neutralize&amp;quot; them a bit.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 15:15, 22 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It appears that Archbishop Gregory has changed his church's name to the &amp;quot;Genuine Orthodox Church of America.&amp;quot; [http://www.gocamerica.org link title].  However, this may be ambiguous as the Metropolis of the GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos is called GOC as is the Makarian Synod's presence in America. --[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 14:07, February 20, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I changed the eponym for the &amp;quot;Kiousis&amp;quot; Synod to &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;. This is how it is known and referred to in Greece. The alternative &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; is used in polemical contexts by its detractors. &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;  is commonly used to refer to both Chrysostom of Florina (as opposed to Matthewite) and Chrysostom (Kiousis) of Athens (as opposed to Auxentite). I also corrected the timeline of the Florenite ordinations and the removal of Auxentios in 1986.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Leonidas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Thanks Leonidas! Good to see you here - [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Walling off vs In Resistance ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It seems that these terms are used more by the Exarchate of the Synod in Resistance in their literature interchangeably.  I have not seen this terminology used in any of my church's (GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos of Astoria) publications in English (although we don't have a large publishing arm!), but I am not sure how these matters are discussed in Greek.  From our POV, we are not &amp;quot;in resistance&amp;quot; as we are the local Church of Greece and its American Metropolis (sorry if this offends anyone in the New Calendar Church, but I am just stating the official view) so there is nothing to &amp;quot;resist.&amp;quot;  Walling off implies that we hold the State Church of Greece to be on equal footing, but just a separate part.  I don't see any difference between walling off and being in resistance.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To break the discussion down to &amp;quot;Synods condemning New Calendarists as Graceless&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;those not&amp;quot; would be futile as well, as all the Greek Synods except the Synod in Resistance have done so, yet there have been vocal critics of this policy even within these synods (i.e. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, I don't quite have the answer (although I will think about it some more) but I hope I have pointed out some potential ambiguities.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=26780</id>
		<title>Talk:Old Calendarists</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Calendarists&amp;diff=26780"/>
				<updated>2006-02-20T20:07:14Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: /* Article bias? */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Is it really right to classify [[ROCOR]] as &amp;quot;Old Calendarist&amp;quot;?  Their separation didn't have anything to do with the calendar change, and they're apparently on the verge of reunion with Moscow, anyhow.  --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 13:00, 28 Feb 2005 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== '''Archbishop Gregory (Dormition Skete / Colorado)''' ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How should his eminence be classified?  As a separate jurisdiction? [[User:Eddieuny|Eddieuny]] 21:18, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Good question.  What does he call his jurisdiction?  Are there any other bishops in it with him?  [http://www.buenavistaco.com/GOC/ds-history.html Their website] describes them as &amp;quot;temporarily independent.&amp;quot;  I'd hate to make up a name for them if they didn't have their own, but they are probably worth a mention.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 21:48, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Oh, here we go:  http://www.roacamerica.org/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It seems they're the &amp;quot;Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&amp;quot;  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 22:15, 7 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Article bias?==&lt;br /&gt;
I received this feedback today from someone. Any comments? Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Interesting. I think this article illustrates some of the problems with a publicly edited encyclopedia. Just a couple examples...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Headed by Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal, the synod has twelve bishops and is enjoying a period of relative stability amidst intermittent persecution on the part of the state church. One bishop, Gregory (George) of Colorado, recently went into schism, but took no parishes with him save four, calling themselves the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church in America.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:This seems very biased in favor of Valentine and against Gregory (note that I am not the least bit fond of either of them).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::In 2001, after the ROCOR made a clear commitment to union with the Moscow Patriarchate, the head of the ROCOR synod, Metropolitan Vitaly, retired in clear disgust from the proceedings.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Almost immediately afterwards, Metropolitan Vitaly, Archbishop Varnava of Cannes, and the two of the Russian bishops of ROCOR, separated from the ROCOR and made new bishops. The proceedings that led up to these events are well documented on the Internet and the treatment of the retired head of the ROCOR was painful to watch, for even the most casual observer.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Again, obvious bias in favor of the Mansonville schismatics (yes, I have a personal interest here).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't see why it couldn't be worded a bit more neutrally.  The original bulk of the article was taken by permission from a text written by a scholar in the field (who is himself, I believe, in one of these groups), [[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]].  In any event, it's curious that the person who wrote to you didn't see instead the inherent ''strengths'' of a publicly editable encyclopedia and come contribute.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'll work with those passages to see if I can &amp;quot;neutralize&amp;quot; them a bit.  &amp;amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|{{User:ASDamick/sig}}]] 15:15, 22 Jul 2005 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It appears that Archbishop Gregory has changed his church's name to the &amp;quot;Genuine Orthodox Church of America.&amp;quot; [http://www.gocamerica.org link title].  However, this may be ambiguous as the Metropolis of the GOC-Chrysostomite under Metropolitan Pavlos is called GOC as is the Makarian Synod's presence in America. --[[User:Anastasios|Anastasios]] 14:07, February 20, 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I changed the eponym for the &amp;quot;Kiousis&amp;quot; Synod to &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;. This is how it is known and referred to in Greece. The alternative &amp;quot;Kiousis Synod&amp;quot; is used in polemical contexts by its detractors. &amp;quot;Chrysostomite&amp;quot;  is commonly used to refer to both Chrysostom of Florina (as opposed to Matthewite) and Chrysostom (Kiousis) of Athens (as opposed to Auxentite). I also corrected the timeline of the Florenite ordinations and the removal of Auxentios in 1986.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Leonidas&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Thanks Leonidas! Good to see you here - [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=List_of_American_monasteries&amp;diff=22326</id>
		<title>List of American monasteries</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=List_of_American_monasteries&amp;diff=22326"/>
				<updated>2005-12-02T20:39:57Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Anastasios: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{orthodoxyinamerica}}&lt;br /&gt;
The following is a list of [[monasticism|monasteries]] and [[skete]]s, both [[monk|male]] and [[nun|female]], in America.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;!--==Albanian Orthodox Diocese in America==&lt;br /&gt;
==American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese==--&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Paul Skete (Grand Junction, Tennessee)|St. Paul Skete]], Grand Junction, Tennessee.  Female skete.  Superior: Mother Nektaria.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;!--==Belarusian Council of Orthodox Churches in North America==--&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Bulgarian Eastern Orthodox Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia==&lt;br /&gt;
===Male===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Isaac of Syria Skete (Boscobel, Wisconsin)|St. Isaac of Syria Skete]], Boscobel, Wisconsin.  Abbot [[Simeon (Gitlis)]].  Brother monastery to St. Silouan.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Sabbas the Sanctified Monastery (Harper Woods, Michigan)|St. Sabbas the Sanctified Monastery]], Harper Woods, Michigan.  Abbot [[Pachomy (Bellkoff)]]. [http://omna.malf.net/sabbas.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Female===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Monastery of St. Silouan (Boscobel, Wisconsin)|Monastery of St. Silouan]], Boscobel, Wisconsin.  Sister monastery to St. Isaac of Syria.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria in the USA==&lt;br /&gt;
===Male===&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Monastery, Los Angeles, California [http://www.stantonymonastery.org/]&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Mary and St. Moses Abbey, Corpus Christi, Texas [http://abbey.suscopts.org/]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Ecumenical Patriarchate Institutions in America==&lt;br /&gt;
===Male===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Patriarchal Monastery of St Irene Chrysovalantou (Astoria, New York)|Sacred Patriarchal and Stavropegial Monastery of St Irene Chrysovalantou]], Astoria, New York. [http://www.stirene.org]. Metropolitan Paisios.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Holy Theotokos Monastery (North Fort Myers, Florida)|Holy Theotokos Monastery]], North Fort Myers, Florida.  Archimandrite John.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America==&lt;br /&gt;
===Male===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Gregory Palamas Monastery (Hayesville, Ohio)|St. Gregory Palamas Monastery]], Hayesville, Ohio. Abbot, Metr. [[Maximos (Aghiorgoussis) of Pittsburgh|Maximos]]. Superior, Hieromonk [[Seraphim (Dedes)]].&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Theodore House (Galion, Ohio)|St. Theodore House]], Galion, Ohio.  [[Metochion]].&amp;lt;!--  Superior: --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Anthony's Greek Orthodox Monastery (Florence, Arizona)|St. Anthony's Greek Orthodox Monastery]], Florence, Arizona.  Archimandrite Paisios.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Holy Archangels Greek Orthodox Monastery (Kendalia, Texas)|Holy Archangels Greek Orthodox Monastery]], Kendalia, Texas.  Archimandrite Dositheos.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Panagia Vlahernon Greek Orthodox Monastery (Williston, Florida)|Panagia Vlahernon Greek Orthodox Monastery]], Williston, Florida.  Monk Modestos.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Holy Trinity Monastery Greek Orthodox Monastery (Smith Creek, Michigan)|Holy Trinity Monastery Greek Orthodox Monastery]], Smith Creek, Michigan.  Hieromonk Joseph.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Panagia Pammakaristou Greek Orthodox Monastery (Lawsonville, North Carolina)|Panagia Pammakaristou Greek Orthodox Monastery]], Lawsonville, North Carolina.  Hieromonk Nektarios.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Monastery (Roscoe, New York)|St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Monastery]], Roscoe, New York.  Hieromonk Joseph.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Holy Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Monastery (Harvard, Illinois)|Holy Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Monastery]], Harvard, Illinois.  Archimandrite Akakios.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Female===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Entrance of the Mother of God into the Temple Skete (Hayesville, Ohio)|Entrance of the Mother of God into the Temple Skete]], Hayesville, Ohio.  Abbess Theadelphi.  Sister-monastery of St. Gregory Palamas Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*Nativity of the Theotokos Greek Orthodox Monastery, Saxonburg, Pennsylvania.  Abbess Theophano.  Sister-monastery of St. Anthony's Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*St. John Chrysostom Greek Orthodox Monastery, Pleasant Prairie, Wisconsin.  Abbess Melanie.&lt;br /&gt;
*Holy Protection Monastery Greek Orthodox Monastery, Weatherly, PA.  Abbess Olympiada.&lt;br /&gt;
*The Living Spring Monastery Greek Orthodox Monastery, Dunlap, California.  Abbess Markella.&lt;br /&gt;
*St. John the Forerunner Greek Orthodox Monastery, Goldendale, WA.  Abbess Efpraxia.&lt;br /&gt;
*Holy Annunciation Greek Orthodox Monastery, Reddick, Florida.  Abbess Ephraimia.&lt;br /&gt;
*Panagia Prousiotissa Greek Orthodox Monastery, Troy, North Carolina.  Abbess Agne.&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Paraskevi Greek Orthodox Monastery, Washington, Texas.  Abbess Paraskevi.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem in North and South America==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Epitropia of the Holy Sepulcher]], Monastery of the Holy Cross (Setauket, New York) Male monastery. Archimandrite Maximos.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Monastery of the Glorious Ascension (Resaca, Georgia)|Monastery of the Glorious Ascension]], Resaca, Georgia.  Male monastery.  Hieromonk Nazarios.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Greek Old Calendarist==&lt;br /&gt;
===Male===&lt;br /&gt;
*Monastery of the Holy Ascension, Woodstock, New York.  Metropolitan Pavlos.&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Gregory Palamas Monastery, Etna, CA.  Abbot Akakios.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Orthodox Church in America==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[New Skete (Cambridge, New York)|Companions of New Skete (Emmaus House)]], Cambridge, New York.  Superior: Sr Melanie Updike.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Ss. Sergius and Herman of Valaam Chapel (Spruce Island, Alaska)|Ss. Sergius and Herman of Valaam Chapel]], Spruce Island, Alaska.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Protecting Veil of the Theotokos Orthodox Community (Anchorage, Alaska)|Protecting Veil of the Theotokos Orthodox Community]], Anchorage, Alaska.&lt;br /&gt;
===Female===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Ss. Mary and Martha Monastery (Wagener, South Carolina)|Ss. Mary and Martha Monastery]], Wagener, South Carolina.  Mother Thekla.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Presentation of the Virgin Mary Monastery (Canton, Ohio)|Presentation of the Virgin Mary Monastery]], Canton, Ohio.  Mother Mary Ann.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery (Otego, New York)|Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery]], Otego, New York.  Mother Raphaela.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[New Skete (Cambridge, New York)|Our Lady of the Sign Monastery]] (Nuns of New Skete), Cambridge, New York.  Mother Cecelia.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Monastery of the Transfiguration (Ellwood City, Pennsylvania)|Orthodox Monastery of the Transfiguration]], Ellwood City, PA.  Mother Christophora.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Monastery of the Dormition of the Mother of God (Rives Junction, Michigan)|Dormition of the Mother of God Monastery]], Rives Junction, Michigan. Mother Gabriella.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Protection of the Holy Virgin Monastery (Lake George, Colorado)|Protection of the Holy Virgin Monastery]], Lake George, Colarado.  Mother Cassiana.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Barbara Monastery (Santa Barbara, California)|St Barbara Monastery]], Santa Barbara, California.&amp;lt;!--  Mother .--&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Our Lady of Kazan Skete (Santa Rosa, California)|Our Lady of Kazan Skete]], Santa Rosa, California.  Mother Barbara.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Male===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Tikhon's Orthodox Monastery (South Canaan, Pennsylvania)|St. Tikhon's Orthodox Monastery]], South Canaan, Pennsylvania.  Superior: Metropolitan [[Herman (Swaiko) of Washington and New York|Herman]]; Deputy: Bishop [[Tikhon (Mollard) of Philadelphia|Tikhon]].&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Monastery of St. John the Theologian (Hiram, Ohio)|Monastery of St. John the Theologian]], Hiram, Ohio.  Archimandrite [[Alexander (Cutler)]].&amp;lt;!--two monastics in residence according to omna--&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Holy Assumption Monastery (Calistoga, California)|Holy Assumption Monastery]], Calistoga, California.  Abbot Sergios.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[New Skete (Cambridge, New York)|Monks of New Skete]], Cambridge, New York.  Father Laurence.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Holy Ascension Romanian Orthodox Monastery (Detroit, Michigan)|The Ascension of Our Lord Monastery]], Detroit, Michigan.  Superior: Archimandrite Mihail.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. Michael Skete]], Canones, New Mexico.  Deacon John.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St. John of Shanghai Monastery (Point Reyes Station, California)|St. John of Shanghai Monastery]], Point Reyes Station, California.  Abbot [[Jonah (Paffhausen)]].&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Protection of the Theotokos Monastery (Weaverville, North Carolina)|Protection of the Theotokos Monastery]], Weaverville, North Carolina.  Archimandrite [[Gregory (Wendt)]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;!--==Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America and Canada==--&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Russian Orthodox Church in the USA==&lt;br /&gt;
*Our Lady of Mercy Monastery (Mercy House), New York City, New York.  Igumen Joachim.&lt;br /&gt;
*Holy Trinity Monastery, Baltimore, MD.  Dependency of Our Lady of Mercy Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
==Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Kursk-Root Icon Hermitage (Mahopec, New York)|New Kursk-Root Icon Hermitage]], Mahopec, New York.&lt;br /&gt;
===Male===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Holy Trinity Monastery (Jordanville, New York)|Holy Trinity Stavropighial Monastery]], Jordanville, New York.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Holy Cross Skete (Wayne, West Virginia)|Holy Cross Hermitage]], Wayne, West Virginia.  Male skete.  Superior: Hieromonk [[Seraphim (Voepel)]]. [http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[All-Merciful Savior Monastery (Vashon Island, Washington)|All-Merciful Savior Monastery]], Vashon Island, WA.  Superior: Hieromonk Tryphon.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Christ the Savior Monastery (Providence, Rhode Island)|Christ the Savior Monastery]], Providence, Rhode Island. Male Monastery, Western Rite. Superior: Hieromonk [[James (Deschene)]] [http://www.christminster.org/]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Female===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Monastery of the Dormition (Nanuet, New York)|Stavropegial Convent of the Dormition]] &amp;quot;Novo Diveevo&amp;quot;, Nanuet, New York.  Superior: Abbess Irina.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Monastery of St Elizabeth (Mohawk, New York)|Convent of St Elizabeth]], Mohawk, New York.  Superior: Mother Ioanna.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Monastery of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary (Wayne, West Virginia|Convent of the Nativity]], Wayne, West Virginia.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Serbian Orthodox Church in the USA and Canada==&lt;br /&gt;
*Nativity of the Mother of God Serbian Orthodox Patriarchal Monastery, New Carlisle, Indiana.  Double monastery: Igumanija Evpraksija and Igumen Gavrilo.&lt;br /&gt;
*Holy Resurrection Serbian Orthodox Skete, Fallbrook, California.  Associated with St. Herman of Alaska Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*Most Holy Mother of God Monastery, Shadeland, Pennsylvania.&lt;br /&gt;
===Male===&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Herman of Alaska Monastery, Platina, California.  Abbot Gerasim.&lt;br /&gt;
**St. Nilus Serbian Orthodox Skete, Ouzinkie, Alaska.  Associated with St. Herman of Alaska Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Sava Serbian Orthodox Monastery, Libertyville, Illinois.&lt;br /&gt;
*Most Holy Mother of God Monastery, Grayslake, Illinois.&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Mark Monastery, Sheffield Lake, Ohio.  Archimandrite Gavrilo.&lt;br /&gt;
===Female===&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Xenia Serbian Orthodox Skete, Wildwood, California.  Sister monastery of St. Herman of Alaska.&lt;br /&gt;
**St. Archangel Michael Serbian Orthodox Skete, Ouzinkie, Alaska.  Associated with St. Herman of Alaska Monastery.&lt;br /&gt;
*Monastery Marcha, Richfield, Ohio.  Mother Anna.&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Paisius Serbian Orthodox Monastery, Safford, Arizona.  Mother Michaila.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA==&lt;br /&gt;
===Male===&lt;br /&gt;
*Monastery of St. Herman, Cleveland, Ohio.  Igumen John (Henry).&lt;br /&gt;
*St. Elijah Monastery, Dover, Florida.  Abbot Anastasie.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Monasteries]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:American Monasteries]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Directories]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Anastasios</name></author>	</entry>

	</feed>